Let's Settle This: What would you want for the rights to Rubio? (with poll!)
by PoorDick on May 12, 2010 12:56 PM CDT
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Wow. In a bit of a surprise, the people have narrowly chosen Evan Turner over John Wall as the best pick for the Wolves, regardless of who is available when the team chooses.
Today's LST is somewhat related, and it has to do with what (if anything) you think the Wolves should accept right now in exchange for the rights to Ricky Rubio.
Assume in the coming few weeks David Kahn gets a call from another NBA GM, inquiring about Kahn's asking price for the rights to Ricky Rubio. What is the minimum amount you think Kahn should accept in exchange for handing over Rubio's rights to another team? Let's hear it!
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I picked the top 4 this year because
that nabs you either Favors, Turner, or Cousins. All have a lower ceiling than Rubio, but all should be solid stars in this league (with Favors being the biggest gamble) at positions of need for this team (Turner=wing, Favors=athleticism, Cousins=legit size).
One thing to remember (for those of you pining to trade Rubio..) is that Rubio is ONLY 19. The kid is the same age as Wall and has accomplished MUCH more. Wall’s got the athleticism but Rubio’s got the IQ. I actually think both have equal ceilings with Rubio already having played much more difficult competition.
The only reason you trade Rubio is if you know for a fact that he isn’t coming here.
I would counter and say the only way you pass on a trade of Rubio for a top 4 pick is if you know for a fact that he is coming here. I understand it would be uncomfortable for Rubio to say this publicly now, knowing that he is playing at least one more season in Spain. But the FO having the right read on the situation is critical.
This is key
This is a situation where the FO must have better information than we do as fans. at least I hope so.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 12, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I voted none of the above
but realistically, if I could get a young starter among the top 10 in the league at his position, I might do it, depending on who it is.
I may be the only one, but spending serious resources to have a 2nd pick in the top 4 isn’t particularly exciting to me. Too much can go wrong when you put too many eggs in that (unknown) basket.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 12, 2010 1:39 PM CDT reply actions
Agreed
I actually voted top 2, but was very close to voting none of the above. My only logic is that Wall/Turner + either Wall/Turner/Favors/Cousins/whoever is actually a pretty good (and maybe even great) group. Don’t get me wrong, I love Ricky and think he really will be as effective and transformational as Jason Kidd was but in his own style. But the odds are quite strong that we’ll land a top four pick and netting a top two on top of that is pretty freakin’ awesome.
Best case – Wall and Turner.
Worst case – Turner and Favors? Cousins?
Either of the worst cases dramatically upgrades the future of this team. We already have a quality PG in Sessions, a quality backup 2 in Ellington, a quality 3 in Brewer, and a quality (or truly replacement level, not the mythic replacement level everyone thinks grows on trees) center in Darko or perhaps even Pek/Steimsma (OK, so they’re more of the tree variety). You could keep Al or Love or trade them for other pieces.
Starting five:
Sessions
Turner
Brewer
Favors
Darko
Backup five:
Flynn
Ellington
George/Anderson/Whoever
Love
Pek/Steimsma/Seraphin?
As much as I love Rubio, I think a top two pick in this draft would sway me to part with him. Unfortunately other pieces would have to be involved in such a trade as no one would trade their top two pick for just Rubio and have to wait. The only exception I can think of might be Utah, with them acquiring Rubio as major leverage to package in a trade with AK47 for a Bosh type player? Or to package with AK47 in a trade for a Jordan Hill + Battier (or expirings) and future picks type deal?
"Thankfully, they are not straw-colored brain bats."
I like to see Sessions in the starting 5 here
I strongly believe that if we land Turner we are gonna need a pass first minded PG to really utilize Turner and the other opportunities that having him out on the floor will open up.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 12, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I hope they
then add a sweet-shooting wing to play with those two, because we’d be bereft of three-pointers if Sessions and Turner are logging substantial minutes (no offense, CoBrew).
Rudy Fernandez?
Let’s bring this argument back! But really, if we get Evan Turner, Fernandez really is a good fit with him and Rubio/Sessions. Great shooter who can really throw down some alley oops (and that’s ignoring the fact that Rubio kind of likes him). This is a situation where I think I would be willing to overpay for Fernandez… but maybe we should wait until Pritchard is kicked out of Portland and the new GM doesn’t have quite the same affiliation with those players? Any news on when that situation will get resolved?
I’d be more than willing to send them Flynn or Sessions, Brewer, and the Utah pick for Fernandez…
What'll it take?
By the end of the playoff series this year, Blazers fans were begging Nate not to let Rudy onto the floor, but we know Kevin Pritchard isn’t a knee-jerk dealer and that he’s loyal to a fault with his young talent.
What value is that going to take?
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
Yeah I'm not sure what's going on with Rudy
but I know that if Pritchard leaves, there are very few GMs who would value Rudy as highly. So there would be an immediate drop in asking price. Like I said, not really sure what the situation is in Portland these daysd, but we should be keeping close tabs on it. We still have a year before it becomes a true rush.
I would love to get Rudy..
…possibly to the point of over-paying (fair value), but I still think the Blazers would want too much to make it happen.
Actually I think that
Flynn and Turner could work well together because Turner can create (we need a creator on the floor when Flynn’s out there) and it’d be better for Turner to kick it out to Flynn during one of his slashes to the hoop than Sessions, as Sessions really cannot shoot (…yet).
by SF on May 12, 2010 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions
You do have a good point...
I think the point is with Turner life should be a lot more entertaining for us.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 12, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Isn’t Rubio just as much of an unknown at 19 as Derrick Favors? How is parlaying Rubio for Favors taking on more risk? As impressive as his season was at times, he was also haky at times, including that title game with his turnovers. Teodosic blew by him in the 1st half and Beverly abused Rubio’s tendency to use his behind the back dribble to escape backcourt pressure. It was baffling to see Ricky make the same exact mistake and let Beverly make the same steal right after he lost it the first time. It almost looked like Ricky didn’t have another move to escape pressure and wasn’t quick enough to push by it. He will get stronger, and I think he’ll get better, but he does have potential NBA athletic limitations that make him an unknown in the NBA.
I get that we are more invested in Rubio since we’ve waiting a year holding his rights, but I don’t know how you turn down a chance at a Top 4 pick with someone who’s ready to join the team immediately.
Favors is much more of a risk
because he’s played one (mediocre) season in college, whereas Rubio has been playing at a high professional level for several years, was one of the starters on the best team in Europe, and is, apparently, the best point guard in the 2nd best domestic league in the world.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 12, 2010 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Plus...
There is taped evidence of him making Team USA look like fools on several occasions.
Rubio essentially has proven working experience in Pro ball where Favors does not.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 12, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I think his concern is whether or not Rubio will be consistent in his play. It should be preferred to have the boring play of a team like the San Antonio Spurs over the Harlem Globetrotters if your goal is to win games
BetterLaettner
by BetterLaettnerThanRider on May 12, 2010 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I picked Top 4
But I think it would need to be Rubio as part of a package. Pekovic looks ready to come over and I could see a Rubio + Pekovic + 23 to the Nets for #4 if they don’t move up as a possibility. I think any team trading a draft pick fro Rubio would want some instant gratification to give their fanbase, and the Nets could use Pekovic with little front line depth beyond Lopez as he is the only front court player under contract unless you count Yi.
I probably would have voted A Top 5 Pick if that was an option, as the allure of adding #5 and getting a ready now player in Wes Johnson at a definite position of need would be tough turn down. Ultimately the only situation where I would want to trade Rubio under any circumstance would be if we draft Jon Wall. If the team then feels that Wes Johnson with his shooting and athletic ability are a good fit on the wing with Wall, at a definite position of need, I could go along with that. Along with this scenario having the benefit of instant gratification, it hedges on the risk that waiting longer to get value out of Rubio’s rights could backfire due to injuries or lack of growth in his game. Clearly Rubio’s value could get higher, but his team just won the Euroleague championship and he was only 19 still dripping potential, how much higher can his value get. Rubio would have to be straight up for #5 in terms of value, and that would be my floor, exactly when he was picked last year.
Instant gratification?
You mean like how the Wolves traded two rotation pieces to Washington just to wait for Rubio for two years?
That period is over
Foye and Miller are now free agents so we can resign them if you still think their rotation players; however, we have already paid our debt for acquiring Rubio as this season is history and our roster now looks the same as if we’d kept Foye and Miller.
I really wouldn't mind bringing Miller back
assuming he would agree to take a jump shot…
That sort of seems most realistic. Wolves get Wall, making Rubio expendable, and they decide to get out from the uncertainty/holding pattern of the Rubio situation to add a nice-fit prospect. Team at #5, out of position to get one of the top 4 studs, maximizes its pick. It all depends on Rubio’s potential, of course. If he’s really Jason Kidd with a 3-point shot, you can’t trade him. If his inability to finish in the EuroLeague is even worse in the NBA, maybe he’ll have some serious “translation” issues and won’t get close to the Nash/Rondo/Williams/Kidd stratosphere. Who knows? Let’s hope the Wolves do.
What’s funny about this what-if is the Wolves would probably walk away from the draft with Wall, Wes Johnson, and then consolidate 16 and 23 to assure Whiteside/Seraphin. Suddenly they have athletic marvels with length all over the floor, and they still have cap space, Jonny Flynn, and potentially the Al/Love deathmatch loser to make more moves.
(BTW, while I’m not the biggest Wesley Johnson fan in the world, I think he’ll do fine at the next level, and he’s a much more appealing option to me than throwing all their loot at Rudy Gay.)
Good points on the length/athleticism infusion with a Wall/Johnson/(Seraphin or Whiteside) draft. It would be interesting to see whether the FO gives up on Al and Love together or whether the infusion of such length and athleticism would be enough to give it another year to see if it works. I would pay to watch this lineup:
Wall/Flynn
Brewer/Ellington
Johnson/FA
Al/Love
Darko/Whiteside
Favors+Wall
I would almost certainly deal Rubio for a top 4 pick since getting a good player that will contribute this year is probably better than waiting for Rubio’s potential ceiling. If somehow we get the #1 pick (yeah right, we’re the T-wolves) then this is almost necessitated since Wall and Rubio are redundant and Wall is clearly the best player in this draft. The only other option is to swap #1 for a 2-4 (maybe 5) + a proven player. The idea of either Rubio or Wall + Favor’s is almost more intriguing than the idea of ending up with Turner + Rubio since I’ve not seen much of Evan playing w/o the ball.
Lebron or bust?
I voted top 4 pick… though I guess as has been mentioned it depends what happens with our top pick. If we get 3, then I don’t think I would want #4 as well. If we get 1, then I’d love to get rid of Rubio for any of those other 3 guys…. though I am still a little curious about a Rubio/Wall backcourt, especially if you have size up front.
Trick Lebron
The Cavs should tell Lebron that they’ll trade him to any team that he wants to be traded to so that he will sign with the Cavs. Then they break their word and trade him to the Wolves for Love, Jefferson, Rubio, Pekovic, Flynn, Ellington, and all of our draft picks.
by oblivionspocket on May 12, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Then he come here and choke in the playoffs for the next 7 years...
At least attendance will be up at the Target center :)
I’m sorry…I’m a Celtics fan too
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 12, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
It's hard to shoot with elbow pain
Even with Lebron, a team featuring Darko, Sessions, whoever we can sign to play SG, and Gomes or whoever we sign to play PF, won’t necessarily make it to the western conference playoffs.
by oblivionspocket on May 12, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions
It's hard to win championships without star-level teammates.
Elbow or no.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character." RWE
I voted top 2
because I’d take Wall, Turner, and maybe Cousins right now in place of Ricky ‘at some possible future date’.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
I went top pick this year
I’d want the top PG prospect to replace Ricky, and that’s what it would take to get Wall. I know a lot of people are high on Turner and Cousins, and I am too to an extent, but I don’t see them as being the sure thing Wall is, and at arguably the most important position on the floor.
I thought about the young starter in the top 10 at his position, but I’d have to know who it was. And it might have to be top 5 at his position, once you get down to 8th, 9th, 10th at some positions, they’re obviously good players still, but they’re hardly elite either. So like Mick Jagger said, “I just want to see his face.”
What the poll tells me is that the CH community
doesn’t really want to trade Rubio, or that at least it understands that Rubio is worth more to the Wolves than he is to anyone else in the league.
Well over half of the respondents would require at least a top-4 pick in this draft; the reality is that I can’t imagine any team parting with such a pick for Rubio’s rights.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 12, 2010 3:47 PM CDT reply actions
Four teams have already passed up the opportunity to trade a top four pick for Rubio's rights,
and that was in a supposedly weaker(although PG strong) draft.
by oblivionspocket on May 12, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Probably not,
unless Rubio’s agent has told Kahn, “Hey, no offense, Sven, but Ricky wants to go to Sacramento. We checked with them, and they’ll give you the third pick this year for the rights to Ricky. You save face by getting a player who will provide some much-needed help right now, and Ricky will eventually play where he’d really rather play.”
Sac ain't doin that.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 12, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions
There's nothing figurative
about a 100 foot restraining order…
yeah...
because the reason you needed a restraining order is usually temporary, right?
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 12, 2010 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless he gets hurt
Rubio is worth as much or more next summer. Why rush, play it out and see what happens. I did say I would take a top 2, but that is under the assumption we are walking away with Wall and Turner.
I really don’t think I would trade Rubio for Turner unless Wall is on the team.
I'll tell you why we rush...
Cause I selfishly want to see the best team possible with my potential $1 dollar a game season tickets.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 12, 2010 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
This is absolutely fair
and the reason I would consider Rubio trades. Ultimately, I don’t think there is one out there I would do, but putting the best team on the floor next season that you can is an honorable goal.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 12, 2010 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions
I understand the sentiment
but you just can’t give away top level talent without getting back top level talent. LeBron James is proving again how hard it is to be a one man show (see Wolves KG era). Even if Wall is as good or slightly better than Derrick Rose, he is going to need significant help to win. Trading potential stars for lesser players doesn’t help.
I was mostly joking...
I think this team will benefit a lot with some questions being answered. One will be answered next Tuesday, and the other will be answered after Spains next season. I wouldn’t doubt that Kahn knows whether Rubio is coming in 2011-12 already and just not saying.
I have never been this excited about a draft in sometime.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 13, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions
My Thoughts
1. A Top 4 pick or a Young Player that could garner a Top 4 pick would be next to impossible to say no to at this time.
2. Eric From Madison’s Right in that I’d be awfully surprised if we got that much value for Ricky.
Hold 'em
There’s a decent chance that the Wolves will have a good pick this year, let’s say in the top three. Hold on to Rubio, if the team improves and slides down the draft chain then at least you can possibly trade him later for high pick. Of course, the risk is he gets injured. But nothing is guaranteed either.
"Support bacteria - they're the only culture some people have." Steven Wright
Idea from the LST series
First I dont think we should trade guys just to trade them but if were gonna trade Al and Rubio (only if we get the top pick) then maybe we could trade them together. Never going to happen but after seeing all these dream lineups heres what i think.
The main pieces would be:
To the wolves: Anthony Randolph, Maggette, 4th pick this year (favors), next years first
To the warriors: Al, Rubio
This year if there we take whiteside and ebanks. Then next year we trade our lottery pick, the warriors lottery pick/whatever else for Harrison Barnes. In 2 years this would give us a long athletic lineup of:
Wall- 6’4 or go small: Wall- 6’4
Barnes- 6’8 Barnes- 6’8
Randolph- 6’11 Ebanks- 6’9
Favors- 6’10 Randolph- 6’11
Whiteside- 7’0 Favors- 6’10
Again never going to happen but if it could, how much fun would it be to watch that much size and athleticism every game?
At first glance that GS trade seems... unlikely at best
but if you take that pick out of there I really don’t think you are that far off. Randolph and Maggette for Jefferson isn’t a terrible trade if Nellie is gone (and if he isn’t, he still might want Randolph out of there). Rubio for the fourth pick would be interesting considering they have Monta and Curry… don’t know if they would be down for that, but who knows it’s GS. Somehow I feel like we’d have to make it a 3 team deal with someone taking Monta and us maybe adding a bit more value… especially with that future first.
Fun team to watch would be an understatement. That said you got it spot on when you said it would never happen :)
Haha yeah very unlikely...
I am actually suprised I even got an I’m not that far off. I think a trade of Randolph and Maggette for Jefferson’s not a bad trade for either team, im not sure about his injury but Randolph did have a couple nice games and maybe with playing time he would be consistent. I would be less excited about the Rubio trade but it would be interesting if we get the top pick.
I must say that
“Let’s Settle This” is fast becoming a highlight of interwebby readings…….
"I was trying to focus on breathing," Milicic said. "I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die."
Mostly due to
a lack of anything even remotely interesting going on with the Wolves, but I"m glad you like it.
Feel free to suggest a topic, or post your own.
I picked lottery pick plus quality starter
…but only because the option 2 first round picks (neither lottery-protected) and quality starter weren’t available.
My trade choice for Rubio is we get Wall
would be for a 24 year or younger, current NBA player who has made at least the all rookie / all sophomore team plus an unrestricted 1st round pick in 2013 or 2014.
We need to add talent now and the delayed 1st round pick gives us an asset to use when the current team starts maturing and a specific type of player might be needed.
I posted this in another thread...
but I wonder if the Clips would take Love and Rubio for Blake Griffin? Love is popular in LA, he could play next to Kaman pretty effectively, and Rubio would be a star in that market, around the same time that Boom Dizzle’s contract becomes a tradeable asset.
Wall or Turner + Griffin is a 1-2 Punch that could win championships, and Griffin’s crazy athleticism and strength would cover some of Jefferson’s deficiencies on defense.
That's an interesting proposition
since the risk on Rubio’s arrival is at least partially offset by the concern over Griffin coming back from the injury.
I guess on paper I would take the offer if I were Kahn. But as a fan, it would be a little disappointing to lose two popular young would-be Wolves in the same deal.
A little disappointing...
but rather than have the small/slow team we’ve seen post-Kevin Garnett, imagine what a John Wall-Blake Griffin team would look like. It would be the opposite end of the athletic spectrum. As excited as I am for Rubio to arrive, I think I’d rather see a Wall-Griffin tandem for years to come.
Would rather do
Love and Flynn for Griffin, maybe add 16 & 23 while eliminating the pick we owe them in the future.
Yeah, that just won't happen.
I don’t think they’d even deal Griff for Love and Rubio, but it’s worth a phone call.
Try this as a reason
Love played for UCLA, on a very good team. He might be good for ticket sales. At this point, Love is more proven than Griffin (I get this is a stretch, but Love would be a top 5 pick again this year, would Griffin be #1 again)? The Clippers may be looking at the Wolves pick as a top 10 in a couple years, but they may also see the Wolves getting Turner this year, adding Rubio next year, and seeing the pick be around #16 anyways.
In other words, if the Clippers think the #16 this year is comparable to what they might get in a couple years, it becomes Love, Flynn and the #23 for Griffin. It’s gotta be close to fair, maybe if nothing else, we get them to give up the pick now for a lottery protected pick in a few years.
Well,
I think the straight up, Love/Rubio for Griffin is realistic. If I had to guess, LAC would turn it down before we would. I just think that our future 1st, owed to them, is looking like a pretty nice asset, right now. The TWolves have shown absolutely no signs of improvement since KG left, save January 2009.
So, I think that including that pick in the deal makes it Blake Griffin and a 2012 lottery pick for Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio’s rights, which may not come to fruition for a few years. To me, that’s lopsided in favor of the TWolves. My gut feeling is that we would have to throw in our Charlotte Pick, on top of Rubio and Love, to get Griffin. Frankly, I’d still do it. The 16th Pick isn’t worth all that much, most likely, and I’d jump at the chance to get Griffin in this type of deal, where we keep our lottery pick and Jefferson.
I think we'll have to disagree on how much to give up
since I think Rubio based strictly on talent would have been the #2 pick last year, and this year as well, and adding Love to that for Griffin is more than I can do. However, I think Griffin for Love with another piece would be very compelling.
If the Wolves could move Pekovic, Flynn, and Jefferson, and somehow get the 3rd pick for these assets, then Love and the #3 for Griffin would be something I would consider, and perhaps the Clippers would if they like Cousins.
Why would you want to give up that much just for Blake Griffin
Love + Flynn + 23 for Griffin and our pick back is reasonable. Love + 3 for Griffin = ?
The #3 pick is much more valuable than Flynn and the #23 and we don’t even get our pick back in that scenario.
Would love that trade (no pun intended) with one more stipulation
that the Clips accept our 23rd pick as payment in full for the Jaric/Cassell trade.
I really don’t want to give that pick up in the next few years.
I'd like that too
but I doubt it’s realistic. My guess is that LAC would hesitate to pull the trigger on this deal, unless they are either very high on Love and/or Rubio, or are worried about Griffin’s knee. Otherwise, they give up a potential MVP candidate (not sure that Griffin is, but I wouldn’t be shocked if he became a 20 & 13 sort of power forward who also makes a defensive impact) for Love and Rubio’s rights, which are not exactly set in stone. I think the odds of Griffin becoming a superstar are higher than Rubio or Love, and I doubt many disagree with that.
Yes, it's an interesting idea, and I think I would do it
as staunch a “no Rubio trade” guy as I am.
The problem is the other end; it’s tough to sell to the Ciipps.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 13, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh, I think
as long as Donald Sterling is alive, anything can happen with that team, so it’s worth suggesting. Plus, Dunleavy’s gone, so there’s an even larger leadership vacuum than there usually is.
Once the Clips are out of this summer’s LeBron sweepstakes, I would think they’ll look at what the Lakers will be like in three years, and decide they can build a pretty exciting alternative by then with locally-loved Love, a Spanish-speaking sensation at point guard, plus Gordon and Kaman. and maybe Aminu in ths draft.
They would not only have a relatively low payroll with that roster, but would have fantastic assets for a potential sign-and-trade in the coming years.
And if they can add LeBron this summer, well, let’s just say Little Ricky might be too tempted by the opportunity to play in L.A., rather than remain in Spain for another year.
A very interesting trade proposal...
I would want a little more – like a future first, or the Utah pick to complete the Jaric deal that you proposed. Trading two recent #5 picks for a recent #1 pick doesn’t balance in terms of value. Throw in a late lottery or mid-1st rounder to even it out.
The problem I see is who would trade a top four pick this year for Rubio?
…for a player that will not be around next year regardless of the destination due to his buyout, and most likely not in the NBA until 2012-2013. Perhaps in a larger city he can be convinced that the increase in advertisement will allow him to more easily by out his contract?? I voted for a lottery pick and quality starter but I would be surprised if they get both in a straight up trade. I think as a package he would be much more attractive for other teams, but straight up you have to find a trading partner that is patient – perhaps a team that has a very good team but has a high draft pick this year – the only team that comes to mind in this year’s draft is the Jazz but they don’t need another point gaurd.
by Breaking Ankles on May 13, 2010 10:42 AM CDT reply actions
You have to really think about
Where would Rubio be taken at if he was in this years draft? He’d have a legitimate shot at being the top pick. He would go no lower than the third pick. So I would take no lower than getting a top two pick for him. We can always wait this out and try to get something for him later. His value will probally get even higher next year. This guy is the NBA’s version of a mutual fund or Roth IRA and you don’t want to cash it out to early if you don’t have to.
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