Relax T-wolves fans. We'll still get our man!
by NYCVike on May 19, 2010 8:33 PM CDT
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After I regained my appetite and my hand didn't hurt so much from when I punched my bedroom wall due to our most recent David Stern hope-buggering, I started to do what my ever optimistic self must do.
Look at the bright side.
In this case, as frustrating as it was, there is a legitimate bright side to be found.
1. The best news we got was that we aren't picking number 5. Picking number 5 would have absolutely killed our ability to move up. The top talent in this draft is 4 deep, and everyone knows it. We have to hope that people aren't too scared to draft Cousins of course, so hopefully he isn't a dick in his private workouts.
2. I am convinced that the FO wants Evan Turner, come hell or high water, and we're only gonna get him at the #2 spot. We actually lucked out on this because Philly landed the 2nd pick. Philly doesn't need Turner they way they need a guy like Cousins, so they have a good reason to trade down and pick up value. Also, Philly is one of the few teams who have major cap issues. We can offer them both players they can dump for cap room, as well as potentially taking on some of their overpayed players. That's gonna be very interesting to them.
If I'm correct in my assumption that the FO will pay what they have to to land Turner, I think it would reasonably break down like this:
Philly: #2 pick and Jason Kapono to the Wolves
Minny: #4 pick, #23 pick, Ryan Gomes to the 76ers
I think that's reasonable and fair.
The one thing I am thinking is that we shouldn't surrender the #16 pick. Its too valuable in this draft, and losing #23 isn't so bad, as we really don't have the room for 3 rookies to make the team this year. Gomes can either be a nice 3-4 for them, or they can dump him for the cap room. He should be the perfect extra piece to get this deal done.
Does this sound fair to you?
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I honestly dont think Turner is THAT good to give up that much for him, to move up just 2 spots and give up another 1st rounder and Gomes??
I dont see it.
I would take it if...
we got a guy like Thadeus Young also in return. What are we giving up? Gomes is a complimentary role player, it is doubtful anyone picked at 23 will contribute immediately next year, especially with the number of, young guys already on our roster that could potentially be there next year (flynn, brewer, ellington, love, pekovic, turner?, and our pick at 16.). As for the 4th pick we would likely get a guy who is solid to stellar, but why not move up to get what we want rather than settle?
Are you kidding me????
Turner is so good compared to Cousins. We already have Al and K Love, what do we do with them if we take Cousins? It’s so much easier to get the second best player in this draft and take a small hurtin on our cap space for him.
I doubt this deal would ever happen but what are we giving up?
A pick in the 20s and aplayer that we would probably release anyone for the best wing in the draft, that really doesn’t seem like a lot. Considering that I’ve seen posand threads were Love or Rubio were used to trade up, if this were actually possible(which I seriously doubt it is) I would do this in a heartbeat.
If it's that big of deal....
we can even take the Elton Brand contract or give them 16 and keep 23, I’m sure Kahn could work his magic as usual and come away with the best possible thing.
IMHO
the only way we get #2 is if we take on Brand’s contract. plain and simple. i would like to think that we could negotiate something for iggy, or even dalembert (contract will be expiring), but my gut tells me that philly is going to push back hard to get rid of Brand.
if my logic (and gut) are correct, then it would look more like iggy, brand and the #2 to the t-pups, for #4, BigAl and anything else we’d be lucky enough to cram in there…like hollins and gomes for example. i don’t mind iggy…even with a bad contract…but brand is an entire b.o.s…AND his contract sucks!
Actually sounds like a winner to me!
1.Turner
2.Iggy
3.Brewer
4.K Love
5.Darko or Hollins or Brand
Bench:
Gomes, Ellington, 16th or 23rd pick, Sessions
I think Brand would be worth it if we can get Iggy and Turner!!
i'm starting to think there's a decent shot PHI takes Cousins at #2
Workouts are gonna boost Cousins much more than Turner. If Cousins doesn’t flunk out the interview process, he might pass ET on PHI’s board. And I think NJ takes Favors over Turner. I’m increasingly of the mind that we stand pat and see who falls to us. Save our assets for other deals.
Of course, if someone else swoops in and trades for Philly’s spot, the equation changes. It would be pretty ironic if we dealt Al for Iggy predraft in preparation for drafting Cousins, only for PHI to give up their pick to someone coveting Demarcus, leaving us with the Turner/Iggy combo currently penciled in for the Sixers.
That would be the point of trading, for them.
If they prefer Cousins, and know he will be around at pick 4, then they move down and pick up a couple extra pieces from us.
The problem is if Cousins moves to 2 then the Nets take Turner and don't look back.
No way we get Turner from the Nets but at least Favors is better a better choice for us I feel. Less risky version of Cousins. Maybe not as much upside but if Rubio lands in 2011 then it won’t matter too much.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on May 20, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I think this trade could ultimately work
it really all depends on what Philly thinks of Turner. If they think Turner is an All-Star, the Wolves probably have no chance to move up, or at least have to take back Brand…ick.
If Philly is convinced that Turner, Favors, and Cousins are pretty comparable, it will be like the Wolves after they took Mayo. They will decide the money saved on Kapano is worth getting either Cousins or Favors. If the Wolves can make this deal, I might also throw them the $3 million max in cash.
The more I think about it, before the draft, I don’t think I offer more than this deal to Philly. If they say no and then grab Turner, I start talking to them about Brand or Dalembert.
When you consider that the Wolves got the #5 last year for Foye and Miller, you have to wonder if we have been overvaluing the #2 the last couple months.
I totally agree that people are overvaluing the #2 spot
Its all about what Cousins is worth to Philly. He’s not such a drop off that we have to give up all our best players and cap space to move up 2 spots. I think my original offer was enough, but we could add some juice if we took Dalembert instead of Kapono. Iwould kill our cap space but free up twice as much for Philly. No way would they turn that down.
I'd go for this.
I feel like Sixers probably wouldn’t,, though. It’s hard to sell to their fans. “We’re trading down… but we’re picking up the fantastic Ryan Gomes!”
I think you sell it as..
Cousins was our guy. We got him, an extra pick and cap space for a player we didn’t really want. You can always sell the fans if you say you had the guy on the top of your board.
Do you guys really need Ramon Sessions now?
What would it take to pry away Sessions and your #16?
Sorry, I'm a Blazer fan.
Would Rudy Fernandez for the 16 and Sessions work?
by premthegrem on May 20, 2010 12:25 AM CDT up reply actions
Very tempting
I’d do it if we could get some doctors to give us a positive prognosis on his future. Without that assurance though, I’d rather have the value that will be there at 16 and Sessions if we can ever drop this Triangle crap.
Might I add
that it doesn’t sound like Xavier will be there at 16… so if that is who you are hoping for, you might need to set your sights a little further up.
you're good,
Xavier is exactly who I wanted, but I’ll be honest, I am starting to fall out of love with this draft at the top of the order because there is so much wing depth and big man depth. NBA draft has become a draft of need over BPA (except for your beloved Kahn). I feel like there is a dearth of quality 2-guards in the NBA, and teams are going to go bananas trying to grab the best ones in this draft because this kind of quantity might not come around again.
Agreed
I don’t think there is much of a drop off of talent between 12 and 25. And before 12 there are probably only 4 or 5 distinct tiers of talent as well…
I saw a recent post you made that was titled something along the lines of, “I want Henry from this draft” So I guess I’m not quite THAT good :)
I’d say that taking the BPA is still extremely important as, even though they appear to be of similar ceilings, there are definitely guys who will be better than others by quite a bit and guys who will not be in the league in a few years. As far as that goes, you have to differentiate between the players who will make a difference and the guys who are a wash with the other guys around them.
Once Cousins/Favors/Monroe disappear,
the big men remaining are very raw projects, or 3/4 tweeners who project to the NBA as defensive or rebounding specialists. Whereas it seems like there are 20+ scorers peppered all over the 1st round, so getting a quality 2/3 high up in the lottery doesn’t seem as important as grabbing one of those bigs. If I were Kahn, I would take one of those 3 and then draft 2-3 wings in the latter part of the 1st round and early 2nd, and essentially let them audition for the leading role in Rambis’ triangle O. It might seem like a mishmash of talent, but I think it’s a better idea than drafting C/F/M and then trading for Iggy as has been proposed in other posts on this site because Iggy isn’t in the same age group as your core.
Iguodala isn't old by any means
he’s right around his prime right now… which is pretty close to Jefferson. But Iguodala is a near perfect fit with Rubio. Athletic defender who can move well with and without the ball, pass decently (for the Triangle), and throw down some massive oops.
It’s been mentioned that, in a vacuum, Udoh doesn’t impress much. But paired with Cousins and all of a sudden he looks like a perfect complement. So he could be another guy worth looking at if the Wolves get Favors. Personally I am obsessed with Seraphin just because he is already supposed to be an adequate defender (think the Wolves need that?) and he makes Favors look chubby.
I would love to get Iggy, even if it means giving up Jefferson. An ideal for me would be somehow dealing Jefferson for Iggy, drafting Cousins at #4, George at #16 and Seraphin at #23 and stashing him overseas for a couple of years. That would give us:
Sessions/Flynn / (Rubio in a year)
Iggy/WEllington
George/Brewer
Love/Pek
Cousins/Darko
LOL you don't have a single piece on your team that is worth Brandon Roy,
and you know it. LMAO
by premthegrem on May 20, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
It's true, of course
but you might find some people on this board who will try to tell you that Kevin Love is better than Brandon Roy.
This is going to get philosophical, so bear with me.
You remember when with Garnett you guys were perennial 1st round/2nd round fodder for eventual championship teams, and you only made the WCF once? Did it feel better to be playoff contenders but know that you are missing pieces that would make you true championship contenders, or to hope that you’re rebuilding your team from lottery bound to become a championship contender?
As a blazer fan, I feel like my team is inching towards the perennial 1st round fodder category. I know that outside of Oden getting healthy, there is nothing the blazers can do personnel wise to become a championship contender, and that makes me super scared because obviously the chances he will become the next Kwame Brown is becoming more and more likely than the chance that he’s going to become David Robinson. That feeling of helplessness, knowing that your playoff team will never be able to make the leap, feels worse than when we first drafted all these guys and had the championship aspirations.
What is your opinion? Better to know that your first round fodder or hope that your lottery team is going to get a great piece in the draft to become a contender?
For me, I'd rather be in the first round fodder category
At least you would be guaranteed winning seasons, some playoff games and some national media attention that didn’t revolve around “3 point guards” or Spanish point guards who may or may not ever play for the team. That’s just my personal opinion.
I concur; I'd rather be in the playoffs
Though, Tim, you don’t have to go out of your way to make us look like idiots with the “some would argue Love is better than Roy” line. You know nobody thinks that. Or you ought to.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on May 20, 2010 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know that nobody thinks that
I assume that most people here don’t think that, but it wouldn’t surprise me too much if I found out that a few people hold the Love > Roy opinion.
Why would we pick up Gomes' contract for 4 million?
He’s a waste of roster space, and grossly overpaid. He’s a jump shooting statue that avoids contact. Dump the chump. Philly would never do the trade. They’d have to come away with a marquee player along with the pick. Let’s hope and pray they can be duped into thinking Al is one.
because hes not guaranteed and can just be cut thereby saving the 4 million in cap space if i recall correctly
saves 3 mil in cap space
as the buyout portion 1M gets counted against the cap.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 20, 2010 7:32 AM CDT up reply actions
the Wolves will be a better team
the Wolves will be a better team without Turner. Cousins plays a harder to fill position and he absolutely has potential to become a top 5 Center. Does Turner have potential to be a top 5 SG? I would say no.
Plus, we don’t have to do something batshit crazy like take on Brand. Trade Al Jeff for Wesley Johnson or even Iggy and the team is better off. Because the way I see it, the only way we’re getting Philly to listen ( that doesn’t involve Brand) is if we come at them with #4 + Love, and that’s not a good trade for us.
I will say this, in no way do I want the wolves to use up all thier precious cap space on Brand. I would not be in favor of any deal that brings that albatross contract to this team, especially given the number of bodies we already have at the pf/c position. Turner is good, yes, but I wouldn’t give my whole roster away and take on terrible K to move up two spots to get him. The most important thing is to draft a) a good player and b) who is good on this team, not some mythical imaginary team. That being said, I am not convinced that cousins is not the next JR rider.
Big Al n the 4th pick for the 2nd n Dalembert??
by Souvik Roy Chowdhury on May 20, 2010 12:26 PM CDT reply actions
not sure if Philly
would view that as an upgrade. It would have to be a three team trade with Philly. If they get pick 4 it means Cousins and they won’t want Al. Al and Brand on the same team? Double ick. Philly will want a vet shooter plus a little extra to move the 2nd pick.
A Darko Fan since 2010!
by TheEvilProfessor on May 20, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Big Al is worth more than two draft slots
I’d give them the 23rd pick to switch 4 for 2, and trading Gomes for Capono saves them money without hurting us. That would be a great move. For Philly, it’s cost savings and roster balancing. Cousins could be as big a star as ET.
I can see trading Big Al for Iggy, too, but then the Sixers keep #2 and ET.
But just because we have a lot of assets doesn’t mean we should ball them all up for one guy, unless that guy is Bron Bron. We need lots of guys.
We need something in exchange for Big Al. If not Iggy, Al for Detroit’s pick and Tayshaun Prince might work—Prince may not stay but he’s an expiring, and maybe we get Udoh there.
The #16 pick is too valuable to use as a throw-in to switch draft slots—hey, we can use whomever’s there as much as anyone. Paul George, for example, is pretty exciting for both fit and upside.
I think we undervalue picks because (a) we have so many of them, (b) McHale said they weren’t worth anything because ours were taken away, and © of course only one pick in team history ever really worked. (Two if you count Rhino.)
I still think it’s possible Turner slides to #4 naturally. Maybe not probable, but things happen. Rubio was supposed to be a lock to go #2 after Blake Griffen a year ago, too.
No chance Turner falls
He’s way too talented, and fits what the Nets need too perfectly. Even if Philly passed he would never slide past the Nets.
You think they think Yi Jinalin is the future at the 4?
Again, if Evan Turner was a Kevin Durant like talent, I’d agree there would be no chance. But he’s not. The Wall/Favors/Cousins/Turner group is pretty close, and of the 4 Turner might be closest to his ceiling already. He also replicates a lot of what Andre Iguodala does for Philly and what Devin Harris does for the Nets. So while I think it may be improbable, particularly if the Cousins=headcase storyline doesn’t get pushed aside, it’s not impossible.
That being said, Mike McCollough was on with PA briefly yesterday and mentioned he heard one of the teams in the top 3 might like Turner better than Wall and would consider taking him “higher than people think.” That would only be worth mentioning if it was Washington. OTOH, he also seemed to be talking people off the ledge a little in stating he’s pretty sure Favors is going top 3 and that Cousins has a chance to creep in there. I don’t know. It was towards the end of the show and PA sort of started talking over him, so he didn’t have a chance to formulate what he was trying to get to.
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