A Little Bit Of This, A Little Bit Of That
Today's post comes with a bit of everything. No song, but as you can see the video up top is our very first attempt at self-produced video on the site. We still need to by an external mic for our little Kodak Zi8 and an mp3 voice recorder, but we'll get there...we'll get there. Loads of goodies about the Wes Johnson workout, draft rumors, and our daily draft board poll.
First of all, let me say this about Wes Johnson: He looks like an NBA wing. The guy has legit length, size, hops, and quickness. Even on the basis of arms, legs, and athleticism, he is, on first glance, a souped-up Corey Brewer:
| Height w/shoes | Weight | Wingspan | Standing Reach | No-Step Vert | Lane Agility | |
| Wes Johnson | 6'7.25" | 206 | 7'1" | 8'10" | 32" | 11.43 |
| Corey Brewer | 6'7.75" | 185 | 6'8.25" | 8'7" | 30.5" | 11.69 |
Just looking at the guy, you can tell that there are no herky-jerky chicken-with-his-head-cut-off movements available in his action canon. He may not have the greatest handle (and he doesn't; the team ran a lot of pick and roll situations on the wing for the guy and he's not going to be anyone's idea of Chris Paul with the ball out there) but everything looks fluid, unforced, and explosive. Were the Wolves to draft the guy, he'd be their most natural, useful, and explosive basketball athlete from day one...and yes, I qualify that statement because of the existence of track star Ryan Hollins.
Getting back to the souped-up Corey Brewer thing, I think this is pretty much the consensus of his talent. Corey Brewer with a jump shot. Corey Brewer who can catch the ball. Corey Brewer with better hops. Corey Brewer with better length. Corey Brewer with a better handle. He may not have Corey's motor or b-ball IQ (I don't think he does), but in terms of skill and natural ability, this is a guy you could put out there at the 3 from day 1 and fell somewhat confident that he'd already be better than anyone currently on the Wolves' roster.
The kicker with Johnson is...well there are a few:
- His age. This was kind of joked about/dismissed by David Kahn and Jonny Flynn, but there is no denying that age is one of, if not the biggest, leading predictors of success in the transfer from college to the pros. Now, age may be thought of strictly in terms of college experience (after all, the guy had to sit out a year and we can't really hold that against him), so it may really mean wear on the tires and available college experience, but Wes Johnson will be 23 years old at the start of the season. Let's say it takes him 2 years to learn how to play man defense and get used to the NBA. This means you have a guy in his effective prime for what...3-4 more years at best? Just how much more can his game change for the better (which is far different than improvement of what he already has)?
- His record at Iowa State. There is no way Cyclone Wes Johnson is a lottery pick. No way. How much of his improvement was related to the systems he played in?
- His handle. It's not what you'd expect for a guy on the wing in a 1/2 court setting. He'll be fine in transition, and I can see why the Wolves are drooling over the guy in terms of a running offense, but he's clearly not someone who is going to be shaking opponents down off the dribble.
- He doesn't get to the line. One of the things I have harped on over and over and over and over again is that you need guys on the team who can put the ball on the floor and get to the line at a high clip. There is nothing in Wes Johnson's history to suggest that he is this type of player. Nothing. Free throws matter. A lot.
| %poss | eFG | OR%/DR% | TORate | Blk% | Stl% | FT/FG | 2p% | 3p% | PPR | |
| Wes Johnson Syracuse | 21.4 | 56.4 | 7.6/18.3 | 17.4 | 5.7 | 2.7 | 35.2 | .540 | .415 | -2.41 |
| Wes Johnson's last year ISU | 27.6 | 47.7 | 5.8/10.9 | 17.6 | 1.5 | 2.0 | 27 | .456 | .333 | -4.28 |
| %poss | eFG | OR%/DR% | TORate | Blk% | Stl% | FT/FG | 2p% | 3p% | PPR | |
| Junior | 25.2 | 53.1 | 5.1/13.6 | 20.6 | 1.4 | 3.8 | 44 | .544 | .336 | --1.98 |
| Senior | 25.3 | 52.6 | 6.0/13.3 | 22.6 | 1.5 | 3.2 | 39 | .527 | .350 | -2.15 |
Wes has an amazing year in one of the toughest leagues in college basketball. He also showed zero signs of being a lotto pick at ISU. That is something of a cause for concern with a soon-to-be 23 year old with the 4th pick...especially with DeMarcus Cousins likely on the board and Paul George, Xavier Henry, and James Anderson available later on in the draft. Anywho...
What stands out in Johnson's Syracuse year is his rebounding and his combination of solid shooting, blocks, and steals. He has all the marks of a guy who is very active off of the ball. It even shows up in deeper places:
• Wesley Johnson looks exponentially more NBA ready than Al-Farouq Aminu from a situational perspective, but both have improvements to make from the perimeter.
...
On the other side of the spectrum, Wesley Johnson stacks up fairly well here. At a below average 15.1 possessions per-game, Johnson scored a very respectable 1.02 PPP on a fourth ranked 49.2% overall field goal shooting mark. He turned the ball over at a less than average rate (13.3%), but didn’t draw fouls on a high percentage on his shots (6.3%).
Johnson made his impact in half court sets for Syracuse, scoring on 45.4% of his non-transition possessions. Posting numbers right around the small forward positional averages in isolation and spot up situations, Johnson stood out in some less noticeable ways that some of the players we’ll discuss later. His .979 post up points per-possession aren’t fantastic, nor are his 1.4 possessions per-game on the block, but his ability to take advantage of mismatches is an area of his game that should serve him well in the future.
On top of his ability to exploit smaller defenders, Johnson got 16.1% of his offense from cuts to the basket (1st). While he certainly benefitted from the players around him, his energy off the ball will serve him well early in his career as he’ll be able to get some shots up without having to create his own look. His ability to crash the glass for tips in will help in that area too (1.379 PPP, 3rd).
Though Johnson could stand to improve his 0.965 PPP and 36.5% shooting on jump shots, he’s a solid finisher (1.23 PPP, 7th), who, like Aminu, has the athleticism and energy level to be a great player if he continues to develop his perimeter repertoire.
Sounds like someone who could use a good point guard. Although, you do have to wonder if the Wolves run a wing-centric 1/2 court offense how a player like Johnson would fit into the mix. If we're talking a Princeton style bit, fine, but the words "Triangle-based" and a guy with no handle has me thinking they should go down the cash-out-on-Evan-Turner route more than taking a guy like Johnson with the 4th pick when, as mentioned before, there are plenty of later-round options for someone who can run around off the ball and in transition. Low usage rates + few trips to the line + few fouls drawn = a guy who doesn't get a lot of contact or put the ball on the deck like you want a wing player to do. I have very few doubts that Johnson will be a nice player but I stand by what I wrote in our first draft board this year:
Wes Johnson: (120.5)- Wes Johnson is going to get a lot of mentions with Wolves fans but he has some fairly significant red flags. If he were drafted by the Wolves, he would start the season as a 23 year old swing man from Syracuse (hello zone!) who needs work on his handle. Midway through the season he went through a dry spell that reminded everyone of the player he was at Iowa State: a nice player but not someone to consider with a top 5 pick.
The guy is also a Syracuse player who is engaging, polite, and with a megawatt smile...all the David Kahn buttons we have learned to be weary of. Maybe if DeMarcus Cousins comes and whispers sweet nothings to Kahn about ponies and rainbows with an ear-to-ear grin we can start talking about the Wolves drafting the BPA at 4.
Some random thoughts to bring it all on home:
- I get the sense that everyone in the NBA lies about 80% of the time during the months of May, June, and July.
- Keeping in mind my first bullet point, I asked around about the rumored Philly trade with #4 and Al going out for Samuel Dalembert and #2, and the basic answer was a smile and "you really think Philly wants that much wrapped up at the 4?" I completely agree with that sentiment. They aint' moving the pick without Brand and if they do, they're idiots.
- Jonny Flynn is really, really short.
- While we didn't get to see the whole workout, the general consensus was that Johnson had his midrange game working and that he could be a solid guy beyond the arc in catch-and-shoot situations and in transition.
- While local media may not have access to the lion's share of the workouts, Jonah Ballow is in the room and twittering the whole time. You can read his feed during workouts here. The Wolves have also increased their web content with videos, interviews, and more. It's a big improvement over last year's efforts. Not exactly fan-based content, but it's getting a lot better.
- Don't forget to follow us on Twitter as well: http://twitter.com/canishoopus
- Don't forget about tonight's first-ever SB Nation meet up. Details are here. Wyn will be there for the Hoopus contingent.
- Also, do not forget that today is the big roll out for SB Nation Minnesota. We will definitely have some content on there in the coming days and weeks.
- Speaking of SB Nation, I did an interview with David Brauer at MinnPost the other day and here's his article on the new SB Nation roll out. "Phantasmagorically detailed" is not a way we have ever heard this blog described before but we like it. That may have a header ring to it. As for the site, Wyn, Sonia, Shrink, and I have always maintained that it is the community of readers that makes it what it is. Take a look at the number of comments and fan posts/shots that are popping up over the last month or so. Thank you to everyone who takes part in this. We really appreciate it.
- Oceanary does some yeoman's work by transcribing the Wes Johnson/Jonah Ballow interview along with posting interviews with Kahn and Fynn.
- Don't forget to check out Casperkid23's latest and greatest draft board. While you're at it check out his very own website, especially his consensus big board ratings.
- The rumor file:
- There has been a lot of league-wide chatter that Kahn is an "easy mark" and that he is in way over his head. Again, I know that there is a lot of whatever going around like now but...well, I was talking to the good folks over at the excellent new Wolves site A Wolf Among Wolves and Myles put it perfectly about Kahn: "I want to believe in the guy." Count me in on that one. As much as there seems to be a boatload of negative whispers out there about the guy, I want to believe that he has something up his sleeve. I want to believe that Ricky Rubio can be the guy to run his idea of an up tempo team. At the very least, I want to believe that they have enough assets to back into a lucky pick or acquisition. I guess I may be setting myself up again for another Charlie Brown run at the football, but I really want to believe that the guy knows what he is doing and I'm perfectly willing to give him until the trade deadline to make up my mind about Thunder fandom or not.
- Speaking of A Wolf Among Wolves, Ben's latest post caught a good comment from Kahn: He admits he was wrong about Curry's ability to play the point. Kahn's entire interview is available over at Timberwolves.com.
- The presence of Tony Ronzone really makes me feel better about the entire operation. The guy really knows what he is doing and we've heard nothing but good things from everyone we've asked around the league.
- My best guess at the Wolves' top 5 draft board: Wall, Turner, Favors, Johnson, and Cousins.
- My best guess at what they'd love to do: Pick up another lotto pick and make a deal with New Jersey that would allow them to keep 3 and 4 while picking up Favors and Johnson. They want athletes who can run the floor, rebound, and catch Ricky Rubio lobs. I really think they'll get something done with Jersey.
- The team has definitely been reaching out to DeMarcus Cousins' agent. David Kahn hasn't talked to him personally yet, but Tony Ronzone has made contact and the team really hopes to have him in for a workout.
- The team views Wes as someone who could step into the Rudy Gay role without spending a ton of dough in free agency. If they can find a way to get Favors and Johnson while maintaining cap space for either this off season or 2011, I think you could argue that this approach might be the best value-based way forward. I'd remind everyone that Rudy Gay is still a young player himself heading into his 5th year of professional ball, but in terms of player type at the 3, Johnson certainly is in Gay's ball park and for much less of a cost.
OK, last thing. Here's where we stand on the Hoopus Community Draft Board:
- John Wall (54%)
- Evan Turner (81%)
- Derrick Favors (50.8%)
- DeMarcus Cousins (64.3%)
- Wes Johnson (85.9%)
- Al Faroq Aminu (38%)
- Greg Monroe (30.4%)
- Paul George (37.1%)
- Xavier Henry (61.7%)
- Cole Aldrich (35.1%)
- Gordon Hayward (28%)
- Luke Babbitt (33.6%)
- Ed Davis (26.9%)
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Who's got next?
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Until later.
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I see
Wes Johnson on the same tier more or less as Pekovic. More than NBA ready, clearly with a solid but not spectacular NBA game, and they fit their position. To see Johnson bandied about as a 4th pick and to see Pekovic thrown into multiple asset trades to move up into the late lottery seems to me to be the annual over-valuation given to draft picks and under-valuation given to current players and assets.
Having said that, I’m perfectly willing to move Pekovic for reasonable value given our roster imbalance, and I’d be perfectly happy to have Wes Johnson as a solid spot up shooter…but not for the 4th pick in the draft.
+1 on Wes
I like him.. He’d be nice to have on the team, but this team needs more than solid starters. He’s the type of guy I’d be happy with drafting next year if we get a stud this year and wind up a little lower in the draft order.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I expected cute african-americanthropomorphic hamsters from the headline
Excellent write-up but I’m a little disappointed.
Shoutout sighting!
Giving this post a rec – I don’t care if it’s useless.
Wes not being great at ISU should be a worry – but I don’t know how big of one. Brandon Roy wasn’t a lottery pick after his sophomore year (I realize the age gap between he and Johnson at the time, but roll with it) and he didn’t have 3pt range, nor was he an efficient scorer or efficient playmaker. Senior year? Totally different. Danny Granger was the same deal.
Now, those are two exceptions to the rule. Wes would have to be an exception as well, but it seems like he should be given how good his senior year was (considering what team he was on) and he has the athleticism/body to be.
I do think his steals/blocks will take a hit – maybe not back down to ISU level, but probably 60-70% of his Orangemen numbers. I also think his boards will take a significant hit because of the position change and the difference in talent – probably 50-60% (use Granger as an example). The efficiency may fall a little as well, but should still place him in the “very good” bracket as long as he’s not relied upon as a 1st option in the backcourt (may be the case for a year or two here, but hopefully not his whole career – and, well, hopefully he’s not here unless he’s their 2nd lotto pick).
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
Your Granger citations on Johnson are intriguing,
as I think Wes might be a similar player—maybe with less offense, but better defense and rebounding.
Eh...
Not my purpose. I don’t think he’s got that type of talent overall – I think he’s Marion’s or Lewis’ offense with some combination of W. Chandler’s and Outlaw’s defense.
I’d bank on him being closer to Rashard Lewis’s talent level (that’s probably being too kind, but can’t think of another player) than Danny Granger’s – though he’ll never see the type of cash Lewis got from Orlando.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
Wes and Rudy Gay is a great comparison!
Wes products to be generally unproductive (considering draft spot) just like Rudy (considering expected salary).
Talking myself into DeMarcus Cousins since 5/18/10
Is your ft/fg stat the same used on knicksblogger? If so, Wes has decent number but perhaps not the usage? Style of play should create some ft opportunity with crashing the board and his pump/ drive. Also in the games I saw his primary go-to move was a one dribble. Hard drive pull up jumper where he elevated at the 15-17:for a textbook jumper. A very similar thing that Paul Pierce often uses. I am not implying they are similar players but that is a nice move and Pierce slipped in his draft for similar reasons we down Johnson. Other than the age, 23 really bothers me. He is a late Bloomer so myabe that can compensate.
BTW his shot looked different at IU. Maybe in his year off he focused on changing it?
And, Flynn is more likely to look to pass if his buddy is on the team.
Draft cousins then look to trade down for Johnson and Randolph?
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 9:48 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
It should be...
….the same as Knickerblogger.
Johnson definitely has a silky smooth jumper. I don’t know what it looked at during his ISU days (and, to be nitpicky as someone born in Ames…it’s “ISU” not “IU” ;) )
I think they’re really going to make a run to have 3 for Favors and either 4 or 5 for Johnson.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Any insight on what it takes to get #3 from NJ? I can’t think of a scenario that works with exception of Love + top 10 (obviously, #4 would be too much).
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 16, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I doubt he gets traded
And I think biggity is on the right track. He’s not untouchable like Rubio, but I think he’s preferred over Jefferson by an increasing amount. That’s probably the best way I can put it.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I should hope it’s for all the obvious “tangibles” Love has. Things like, rebounding, passing, respectable scoring efficiency, being a fairly good man defender. But I guess the intangibles might help his cause, too.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
I guess
untouchable is too strong of a word, but maybe highly preferred. Whenever I look at this team and an upgrade at one of our big positions, Love just always seems to emerge as the guy who’d be preferable to keep because he rebounds at a killer rate, is a really smart player (meaning he’ll figure out how to contribute somehow), and actually has a perimeter shot. Throw in that he’s most likely adequate defensively, or at least the kind of defensive player who looks like he can learn (if he doesn’t already do this) how to minimize his weaknesses by making his guy always play to wherever Love’s help is, Love just continues to emerge as the guy to keep. His particular skillset seems to fit and balance the other draftable guys we’re talking about far better than Al’s.
Also, Kevin Love is good enough and bright enough to keep possessions alive and moving offensively when things breakdown, a sort of low post answer to Rubio or whoever’s playing point. He’s the inside general to whoever’s the perimeter/outside general. I don’t know what Rambis wants to run exactly offensively but I always keep coming to the conclusion that Love is a better fit for it than Al is.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
If they are trading up to get Favors though
Love is a 4, Favors is a 4. I like Love, but that makes him a 6th man – which on a team like ours cannot be close to untouchable. And if Kahn doesn’t see Favors as a starter, the move shouldn’t be made anyway.
Favors could play some Center
Darko+Favors+ Love OR Darko+Favors+Jefferson could work. Favors is a PF/C just like Jefferson except with way more explosiveness off the floor, so in the event Love is kept around, Favors could easily play Center for fairly long stints with Love at PF. Darko would be our token starting Center, but he’d get the least minutes out of everyone.
by Rascal Flatts on Jun 16, 2010 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Because he's a straight up better all around player than...
….the guy with the bigger contract.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
While I hope the newfound infatuation with Love doesn’t prevent Kahn from making a bold move, I’m happy to hear FO is more on the Love Train than Big Al’s boat.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 16, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you think
NJ would value Pek or the 14 more? I’d say Pek. Don’t have to worry about a guaranteed contract and they get to extend their product to a more international scope.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
I'm wondering that as well
Is it possible the Pek rumors to Houston are just a way to get a valuation of what he is worth. Essentially, do the Wolves have one value on Pek, while NJ is saying that is too high? If so, the Wolves can counter with the CHOICE of either Pek or the #14, then NJ can’t claim Pek isn’t worth a lottery pick.
It makes a lot of sense
considering we know that NJ wants to be an international draw and we are trying to get the third pick as well as another top 7-8ish.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
We made the same ft/fg stat with Evans but his skill set made him very effective. How do Evans and Johnson compare in these stats?
As a coach he passes the eye test but frustrated in not taking over. The places in our offense I love him on is the baseline jumper (replacing gomes) both spots of the pinch post, transition and baseline cuts. These are basic swing player roles and he seems cut out for them.
What kind of passer is he? Court vision? Are we assuming he is a poor defender because of Flynn and the zone? He has athletic tools and reacted help side in zone.
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 3:07 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Evans..
..is miles and miles and miles and miles and miles and miles beyond Johnson with his handle. He didn’t get to the line at a fair clip at Memphis but looking back at him now (and I have to do that because I missed him as a pick in real time), he could combine his handle with the ability to absorb contact and get by his guy. Johnson doesn’t have that lightning first step off the dribble, handle, or a proven ability to absorb contact.
Not too sure about his passing but he doesn’t turn it over a ton.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Here's my take on Wes
If the Wolves had a solid lineup and the 8th pick in the draft, Wes could be a perfect shooter to play the 6th man, and a decent pick at that spot. But, for some reason he is going to go top 5, but probably has too many holes for a guy going that high. Is this fair estimate?
Not really fair...
because he’s not going to be a 6th Man any more than Cousins is going to be Eddy Curry. He has the tools to be a very good starter in the NBA.
Exactly, Johnson could score out as a good #3 or solid #2 as his ceiling but cousins could be a stud #1 franchise. Johnson has a better chance but greater risk greater reward.
So get both. :)
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 5:30 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I was not implying he would do it in a similar way but that Evans was statistical not a good ft/fg prospect but he passed the eye test. Johnson does the same for me in how he attacks the rim via cuts/crashing and the pump drive. You can play physical real wing defense in college but not in the pro and with Johnson pull up jumper he could use the offense to get in the paint.
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 4:44 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Jonny Flynn 2.0
People have brought up Jonny Flynn when referencing the dreaded “Wes Johnson pick” for many reasons.
1. Smile
2. Syracuse
3. Impressive workout
4. Firm Handshake
etc…
How about the comparison that can be made in terms of “draft value”? At the time Kahn drafted Flynn, you could easily make the argument that there wasn’t much to differentiate Flynn from Lawson, Holliday, Collison, Teague, and Beaubois…all of whom were drafted in the mid-late first round. Isn’t that really the same with Johnson? How much better is Johnson then Henry, George, Anderson, and Babbit?
Talking myself into DeMarcus Cousins since 5/18/10
by Blakeley on Jun 16, 2010 9:51 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
But across mock drafts, Wes is pretty much the consensus pick at 4 or 5
and that wasn’t the case for Flynn. I think there’s some validity to your point, in that the drop-off from Cousins to the next best center is larger than the drop-off from Wes to the next best wing, but Wes is ahead of the other wings in most mocks or player evaluations. It was much more of a mixed bag with the point guards last year.
But nobody had cousins ranked that high preseason. What if his eff stats are more of a reflection of the DD offence and his teammates? What if his defensive apathy does not change? Attitude, weight, etc. He could be great but he could be a mess. Unless we move for Turner there are questions for all these kids.
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 10:06 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Nobody had Cousins that hig preseason?
What does that have to do with Wes Johnson or really anything? Wes Johnson wouldn’t have been in a top 50 preseason does that mean anything now? Not sure what you are trying to get at with the preseason remark.
DC had him barely in the first rd for a large part of the first! 1/3 of the college season.
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 4:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
He's actually not...
….apathetic on defense. I’ve asked around a lot about this and even on film he was very active on defense and quite a presence. Dude plays all out.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Bingo
People misunderstand this. Johnson’s shaky defense isn’t a lack of activity or effort. It just doesn’t come naturally to him
You're responding to a post about Cousins, not Johnson.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Cousins is also not apathetic on D. His mean-streak extended to that end of the floor.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Right, exactly.
Oceanary’s talking about Wes Johnson.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Yeah, I was just covering the Cousins base too, but now notice that SnP already mentioned that. Ah, slightly ambiguous statements on the internet…
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Your description of Wes Johnson
on defense sounds eerily similar to what is often said about Al Jefferson!
Anyone who didn't have...
…Cousins ranked in their preseason top-10 wasn’t paying attention. He’s always been a top level talent.
Cousins was ranked 2nd among High School players as a college recruit.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
I thought it was favors wall cousins Bradley?
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 5:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Links
Second-ranked recruit still liking K-State
Relating to Cousins
"No one," Calipari told the nation’s second-ranked recruit, "is going to average 30 points for me. No one."
Cousins was fine with that.
And an interesting side note:
Mobile (Ala.) LeFlore High coach Otis Hugley, the coach of Demarcus Cousins, Rivals.com’s No. 2-ranked recruit, said the 6-foot-9 power forward and McDonald’s All-American will “very strongly consider playing for any school Reggie Theus gets hired to coach.”
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
by feral on Jun 16, 2010 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
And again I ask: Why?
As Blakely said, Flynn was the same way to some extent.
I’m a pretty big fan of the game, pore over these draft profiles and so on, and I can’t come up with a good argument that makes Johnson a significantly better prospect than the other options available later.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
My take
I think that Johnson is the best wing after Turner and it’s probably by a significant margin. I haven’t seen a lot of Anderson or George, though. I have seen a fair amount of Henry.
Compared to Henry (most likely the third wing taken, I think?) he’s quite a bit more athletic with more potential to be an all-around stat stuffer. The Shawn Marion comparisons would be way, way off on Xavier Henry, who looks to be more of a Michael Redd, on his best day. (I wish that Redd weren’t left-handed because it makes the comp seem less-legitimate, but I can’t think of any big, average athlete spot-shooters… Glen Rice?).
Not sure exactly about Anderson, but from what I gather, Turner is more athletic and a better pure shooter. Unless folks are confident that Anderson can be a “break down the defense” guy at the next level, I can’t see any way that he reaches Johnson’s level.
On George, again haven’t seen him play. The write-ups on him say that he’s long and athletic and shot well from 3 as a freshman… slightly worse as a sophomore. I’m not sure about George vs. Johnson — Johnson became consensus 1st Team All-American, leading what some considered the best team in the nation. Perhaps that exposure and higher level of competition separates the two. George is younger, so he probably has more long-term upside, but you don’t know what you’re getting like you do with Johnson, who looked like an NBA player, last year.
None of those comparisons works for me.
That’s not the first time I’ve seen that, but Johnson isn’t that guy. Marion as a prospect was all about speed, and had the most busted-lookin’ shot ever (until Noah). That is not Wes Johnson. Marion was a motor-heavy defensive player out of the gate. Not Johnson. And no, I really don’t imagine that Wes Johnson will play a small 4 for anyone. I guess they’re both complementary players whom you imagine will do damage without needing the ball? Is that the outline? Versatility between the 2 and 3?
If you’re going to compare anyone, Xavier Henry included, to Michael Redd, that player had better be a shoddy defender. “Commitment to playing defense” is one of the various sites’ strengths on Henry. Redd’s an off guard who’s put up four seasons at a 20+ PER; you’re saying if you could get a guy like that who defends well you wouldn’t like it?
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Yeah, I'd like Redd...
but Henry isn’t any kind of lock to become an All-Star like that. You’re right about defense with Redd and I have no idea if he had struggles like that at Ohio State. Most college players have a “commitment to playing defense” or they sit on the bench. I definitely assume that to be true for a Bill Self program. Whether that’s an indicator that Henry will defend 2’s well in the NBA is another story, but I suppose it helps that he’s with the 90% of college guys that commit to playing hard defense.
The Marion comps are only flattering for Johnson, and nothing else because like you say, Marion had a broken jumper, and Johnson has the opposite, with a silky smooth stroke from outside. I don’t know if Johnson will be able to defend small 4’s — and I don’t know if it matters because most teams don’t play the successful smallball of 7SOL. Seems obvious that Rambis wants big players at every position — not small ones.
The simple answer to your big question is that Wes Johnson was arguably the best player on the best team in the country, and he was a national player of the year candidate for a good chunk of the season before he injured himself and his team lost 4 of their last 10, after winning 24 of their first 25. He played like an NBA player in college. Yeah, partly due to age, but the bottom line is that’s where is game is at already. If the same could be said for Henry or the others, they’d get taken up there around 5.
I think Henry
can probably play some 3. He has very nice length and is very strong. It wouldn’t be ideal in every matchup, but he can definitely spend some time there, which should help cover up his average lateral quickness.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
and I like Henry...
just not as much as Johnson. I think there is good reason to put Johnson around 5, and Henry later… maybe around 10. (Not a huge difference, but they are not the same value, IMO.)
Ray Allen-esque
and by that I mean, only in terms of how they use him at the 2 and 3.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
The best comp for Henry is Allan Houston from the Knicks a few years back
Built like a linebacker with a sweet stroke.
That's top end, I imagine.
Houston before his injury was a major figure on a team that made the Finals.
Is Henry really that built?
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Casperkid said
that he has even put on more muscle since the season… so yeah, I’d say so :)
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
I compare Xavier to...
Allan Houston.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
I agree. What is the value difference in wj vs George or Henry. The key is all 3 will need a 5-10 range pick.
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 10:01 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Anderson is garbage compared to those other guys, be honest, has anybody here even watched James Anderson play, or are you going off the Canis Hoopus norm and just basing your opinions on YouTube videos and what other draft analysts have said?
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 16, 2010 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
At best James Anderson is a 6th Man, and that’s at his absolute best, he’s a career reserve, nothing more.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 16, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
If were to take Anderson, it would stunt Ellington’s growth, we don’t have room for both on this roster. Neither can play SF and neither are starters.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 16, 2010 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Some advice for you
Take like 2 minutes before you hit POST and figure out if there’s anything else you want to add. I swear whenever you post in a thread you have like 2-3 other posts in the same line of thought directly under your initial post a minute later.
Also, saying Anderson is garbage compared to the other guys is pretty far off and is an extremist opinion. He’s far off from Babbitt? Okay. Even saying that about George is kind of stupid – I have George a tier above Anderson, sure, but he was highly inconsistent against weak competition.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
by Casperkid23 on Jun 16, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Seriously, you’re going to bitch about me posting two or three posts consecutively? Come on, anal retentive or what? In regards to Anderson, if we draft him Ellington has to go, they’re is no way both can co-exist, neither will ever be starters and neither can play SF. You’re basically going to have to split 18-20 minutes between two players, is that the right way to develop players? Babbitt has much better size as well as the ability to drive with both hands, have you see Anderson try to drive left? It’s not pretty. An extremist opinion? I’ve watched him play and I don’t think he’s anything more than a reserve, that’s more than you can say about most fans on here that have never even see 95% of these kids play one game in College. Anderson is a couple of tiers below George and Babbitt.
by AnotherDraftPickBitesTheDust on Jun 16, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Am I bitching?
I guess I am, but it’s annoying/hilarious to see in virtually every thread I visit in which you’ve posted.
I don’t think you plan anything around Ellington, who is certainly undersized for the 2-spot and nothing more than a bit player. Anderson measured out roughly the same (except for height) as Turner – so I don’t see a reason he couldn’t play minutes at SF. Let me ask you this: when did you start pimping Babbitt?
And let me know if I can laugh my ass off at you saying if I’ve seen Anderson drive left – it’s all his CAN do as far as dribbling. He cannot drive RIGHT.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
by Casperkid23 on Jun 16, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Go watch some games Casper
jeez!
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Have you watched these guys play?
Just wondering if you’ve watched all these guys play. You mention that many people on this board haven’t watched any of these guys but you never said if you’ve watched them. I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on Anderson. I think he could easily start in a year or two if he’s in the right system. It sounds like the Bulls really like him and if they draft him I think he’d be a perfect fit next to Rose. What about his game makes you think he won’t ever be a starter in the league? And if you had watched Anderson at all you would have seen that he actually goes to his left a large majority of the time The complaint is that he doesn’t go to his right. So how much have you watched of these guys again? Boom roasted.
FWIW, Draft Express says he can play some SF in the NBA
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 16, 2010 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Have you watched Anderson play?
I watched OSU play at least a half dozen games this year and I really like Anderson. Now I wouldn’t draft him in the top 10 but I think he has a skill set some of these other wings don’t. He can shoot the ball both spotting up and on the move. I’m not sure you can say that about any of the other wings. Plus I think he moves great without the ball which would fit in perfectly in the triangle. I understand his drawbacks, namely defense, but on the offensive side of the ball I think he’s probably the best wing right now. I would completely agree that other wings have higher upsides but I think Anderson’s floor is higher than George and Henry.
It’s OKST and I wouldn’t say his defense is a big drawback (it’s an overstated flaw), but I agree with the rest.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
by Casperkid23 on Jun 16, 2010 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Actually Oklahoma State goes by OSU too. Here’s a link(Look at the left).
p.s. I can’t handle being wrong.
You say OSU
and I think Ohio State. But that’s neither here nor there..
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Same
I propose a death match between OSU, ORE, and OKST for the acronym rights (much like the one Minnesota lost for usage of U of M nationally). OKST seems like the more accepted form of Oklahoma State (at least in terms of abbreviations used by sports publications).
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=OKST
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=OSU
JUST SAYIN!
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
by Casperkid23 on Jun 16, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
Both Ohio State and Okalhoma State have trademark rights to OSU. They have split up the territory of the United States where each can only use OSU in their territory. I believe that Oklahoma State had rights to OSU in Nebraska, so it will be interesting to see if Big Ten Expansion changes territorial rights to their respective trademarks.
Are you serious in this post?
If you were, wow that’s some solid info.
If you were kidding, well, you got a smile out of me.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
by Casperkid23 on Jun 16, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I was serious
Trademark law allows for those with similar marks to divide up a national territory where each has exclusive use of a mark in a certain region. Both of these marks predate the Lanham Act of 1946, and I’m sure both were able to make a case that they were the first users of “OSU” in their respective territories. A situation like this is not uncommon, in fact there are many instances where a small regional business has a similar trademark to a national business and they can retain their rights to a mark in the region where they have established prior use to such a mark to the chagrin of the other party.
by Ebomb on Jun 16, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is an interesting factoid
I’m just a little smarter than when the day started (assuming reading blogs does not destroy brain cells).
So when referring to the southern OSU, can we say “THE” Oklahoma State University?
You learn something new every day.....
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Something
about his shooting, off the ball movement and incredible statistical production makes me think Anderson is going to be one of those guys who falls farther than he should then comes out and shocks everyone. I’d love to get him with one of our later picks, especially if we take Cousins at 4.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Latest mock has him going to Chicago
And I think he’d be a spectacular fit there – even if they don’t get LeBron and instead go for a star PF.
I think he’s going to be a fringe starter, so not necessarily going to shock anyone, but certainly a safer and still possessing upside.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
by Casperkid23 on Jun 16, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not saying he's gonna drop 20 a game
but I think he’ll continue doing what he did in college, just to a lesser extent. By that I mean provide a good scoring rate with solid efficiency from all areas. The dude can shoot it, but he’s also solid on the break and gets to the line well. I don’t think those abilities will just evaporate. I think Thorpe compared him to Marcus Thornton last year, which I liked. If he falls past the lotto I think he could be a steal.
Good fit in Chicago for sure, especially if they get a post scorer. They could become very dangerous with his shooting and someone who can actually score down low like Boozer.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
He may get drafted about where Marcus Thornton was, anyway.
Draftexpress’s “situational stats”:
Situational Statistics: This Year’s Small Forward Crop. June 12, 2010.
James Anderson was nothing short of spectacular last season, and it shows here. His 1.07 overall PPP ranks second amongst all players, as do his 20 possessions used per-game. He was above the PPP every in every situation except for guarded catch and shoot situations, and has more experience running the pick and roll (2.9 Pos/G) than any other player on our rankings. High usage/high-efficiency players are extremely difficult to come by, and NBA teams may want to ponder if they’re missing the boat on Anderson due to the fact that he has not been spectacular in workouts. The same thing happened last year with Marcus Thornton.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Fantastic effiiciency and high usage rate combined with questionable workouts and a lack of flashy athleticism = textbook recipe for a steal. What matters if is a guy produces once he’s in a real game, and I think Anderson will do just that.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I have zero idea why he's not higher up
I have him as the #5 player on my draft board. He’s a silly good scorer and he can shoot the hell out of the ball. He also has a big track record of being able to do this sort of thing over a long period of time. Oh, he also has legit size. People will remember the tourney game but this guy was the Big 12 Player of the Year.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
It would not be irrational to imagine a draft board
in which Johnson was slotted 12th or so, and Anderson was in the #5 hole Wes now occupies. You can make all the arguments to justify that – or anyway, just as many as the reverse arrangement.
We have to ask ourselves whether we’re always going to be missing on (DX again):
“Not the most fluid or dynamic athlete you’ll find at the collegiate level, Anderson nevertheless manages to produce in an incredibly prolific and efficient way.”
I read that and think “Daryl Morey at #14, if he keeps that pick.”
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
There's a big difference..
….between how a player is ranked and his value. I’d never dream of them taking Anderson at 5. I’m just saying that he’s one of the players in the draft that has the biggest gap between where he seems to be headed and his talent.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
again, another reason to take DMC at #4, knowing there are solid wing options at 16 (or slightly before if we package some assets to move up).
Aminu, Henry, George, Babbitt, Hayward, Anderson are there in the 7-16 range. I like Wes, but we will completely underutilize our picks/assets if we draft Wes at #4.
DMC + Henry, George, Anderson etc is so significantly greater than Wes + another wing or Whiteside, Alabi, Udoh that it will blow my mind if Kahn settles for the latter.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 16, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe at the end of the PA interview the other day
Kahn specifically mentioned that he told the front office staff to not under-rate Anderson, and give him another look.
Yeah
You can’t overlook a guy that was a threat to go off for 30+ on any given night. And he wasn’t playing against chopped liver either.
by Rascal Flatts on Jun 16, 2010 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Other than Harrison Barnes next year likely is weak at the 3.
Very clear we need to somehow get Johnson but not as the main catch. Snp’s favors concept or my cousin’s deal works.
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 9:58 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Way too early to say
It’s way too early to say next years draft class will be low on 3’s. Nobobdy had Wes Johnson in their top 50 at this point last year. You never know who steps up and which freshman really take a huge step in development.
I think the opposite of rev actually
Next year should be strong at the 3. There’s pure 3’s or guys who are combo forwards that could realistically play both spots. Off the top of my head, you have Barnes, Jones (combo), Vesely (combo), Singler, Henson (combo), Harris, Taylor, Hamilton, and Singleton (combo).
Lots of upside in those. If anything, I’d say it’s weak in guys who can realistically play the C – but like jama said, too early to say with any certainty.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
by Casperkid23 on Jun 16, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Tyler Honeycutt
will develop into a first round or even potential lottery pick next year. The length, athleticism, rebounding and passing skills and excellent defense are all there. His scoring numbers won’t be great in Howland’s system, but the man does turn out some NBA talent if you look past the obvious stats.
Euros may be much more present next year.
That absolutely colors whatever distribution of positional talent there’s going to be in the draft. NCAA players will be skittish about a lockout.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
I wish the name Harrison Barnes would stop surfacing. The likelihood of the Wolves winding up with any particular player next year, especially Barnes, is awfully low. Why begin pining for a player now? It only guarantees you a full year’s worth of major disappointment. In comparison, think of all the pre-lottery planning done on sites like these where we were all but certain to be building around Evan Turner, or even John Wall. Where did all that speculation get you?
by ogishkemuncie on Jun 16, 2010 10:23 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I was just saying the SF class is weak outside of Barnes.
by revprodeji on Jun 16, 2010 10:42 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
How dare future NBA players come up
on a basketball blog! SHUN!
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Kahn as "easy mark"
Is an unfounded possibility. But Kahn is joined by partner, Kurt Rambis, this year. For all the speculation about Kahn (I without judgment at present), he will not be making these decisions in isolation this year.
I think the 'easy mark' sentiment might be a bit deeper than Kahn at the surface.
As a contract-type lawyer, I highly doubt that Kahn is easy to take advantage of in the sense being talked about. I think at play here is the specific situation the Wolves find themselves in. The Wolves were horrendous this year, playing for a high pick, and they got handed the #4 pick. The likely BPA at the 4 is a PF or C, where the Wolves already have a log-jam. The perceived best fits are Turner, most likely off the board, or Johnson, definitely not the BPA.
On top of all of that, you’ve got a place with money but not likely to capture one of the best FA’s on the market. The draft is the primary way the Wolves are going to get better this off season, and maybe by trade.
The best trade asset is a Spanish PG at least a year out, and likely the one untouchable. The next best trade assets are Love and Jefferson, and both of their values are deflated due to on the court and off the court issues last season, and the correctly perceived notion that the Wolves HAVE to move one of them.
You add past Kahn statements like: This time, if we have a clear idea about a guy, we need to go all in to get it done. The draft will be our best opportunity to shape this team.
Other front offices will naturally see the Wolves dealing from a position of some little desperation, and probably conclude that they can get more out of a deal with the Wolves, especially right now, than with another team or at a different time. Basically, I get the sense that other teams expect the Wolves to get a bit desperate to do something to alter the current reality and might blink first on an offer the is a little more beneficial to the other team.
I think Ronzone and Rambis will provide good insight and opinions on players and fit, so hopefully the Wolves can maximize the effectiveness of their trades/moves. Also, I hope they don’t blink if it comes to picking at the 4. You take Cousins and then see what happens.
by Krotz the Wall on Jun 16, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wolves will get the #3
The Wolves want the #3, as pointed out near the end of this article. This way they are guaranteed Wesley Johnson, as well as either Favors or Turner. They would prefer Turner, but as I argued in my FanPost yesterday, Turner is #2a on the board and Favors is #2b. They are fully preparing for the Sixers to take Turner. And they really like Favors. This way, best case scenario is Johnson/Turner, worst case is Johnson/Favors. Not sure how a trade with NJ gets done, but Kahn reiterated Monday on KFAN that he is convinced they can get the #3 pick.
Doogie Wolfson echoes that they want Johnson/Favors or Johnson/Aminu. Although if Turner was there at #3 and they didn’t take him, I would simply cease to exist.
I wonder what it will take to get #3 from NJ. They don’t have any bad contracts on their books and unless they part with Devin Harris(a possibility), a trade for Al won’t work.
My sense is that we’d have to give-up Love plus a top 10 pick. Love + #4 is obviously too much, so we’d have to get pick from packaging 16, 23 and/or Pek or trading Al.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 16, 2010 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions
A trade for Al would work
The Nets and Wolves both have a ton of cap space. Can’t the Nets just absorb Jefferson’s contract if they wanted to?
Sure
If they wanted to, they could. But why would they? They could keep #3 and just go sign someone like Amare, Boozer or Lee.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I'm really curious
If you listen to the interview on P.A., Kahn says something very similar to, “It will be tough to get the #2 pick, but we could probably get the #3…..yeah, we could trade for the #3.”
He said it so confidently, and I’m wondering how he thinks they could do it so easily.
Again... spin.
If you’re Philly and you hear that the Wolves think they can get the 3, meaning that they don’t want to mess with Philly’s demands, you’re left with a bit of problem. You can either draft Turner at the 2, have Iggy with pretty much the same game and a big contract, and Brand and his contract. Then you have to work to get someone to take a big, bad contract, without the likelihood of getting anything to really help your team.
If you pass on Turner, your bluff got called, and you still have to figure out how to move Brand’s contract without much expectation for positive return.
I don’t quite see what NJ has to gain in trading the 3 to the Wolves, especially with the questions over Jefferson’s likelihood to returning to pre-injury production. Philly could get some much needed cap relief and still a high pick if they can get something worked out.
by Krotz the Wall on Jun 16, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
I got that same impression listening to the interview
basically like Kahn was saying to Philly, here’s the deal…if you don’t trade with us the we have a deal ready with NJ. It was a shot across the bow, if not a bluff.
Maybe to trade him
If they think there is going to be a lot of sign and trades going on with the marquee free agents they might take Jefferson as trade bait for a later deal. I’ve also heard that the Nets want to get rid of thier pick to keep as much money available to sign players.
by Achilles Fang 1 on Jun 16, 2010 12:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Supposedly
NJ wants to get rid of Kris Humphries without taking back anything which gives them enough cap space to pursue another max free agent. Wolves are one of the few teams under the cap that aren’t looking at the free agents, so just taking Humphries has significant value to a NJ/MN trade.
Good insight
still not sure how a MN/NJ trade works. MN takes Humphries’ contract + 4? This doesn’t make a lot of sense either since I don’t see a DMC/Lopez frontcourt working. Would NJ draft Wes at 4? Apparently, they’re high on him.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 16, 2010 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
They could make another move
Take Cousins at #4, then trade down for Wes Johnson.
by Rascal Flatts on Jun 16, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
makes sense...
but I wonder what NJ will want for flipping spots…is taking on Humphries’ contract enough?
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 16, 2010 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Gomes
For humphries. NJ can cut gomes if they want the extra cap space. Worth one spot in the draft?
The world is made for people who aren't cursed with self-awareness
by Victor Mature on Jun 16, 2010 9:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I think Pek would also be thrown in
I am not sure that NJ wants the 4 though. They may want Pek, all our second rounders and some other type of salary swap and future picks. Maybe some deal where our other lower picks get rolled into the future? Kind of like Miami where they want as much cap space as possible.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 17, 2010 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Gomes is a negative asset to NJ
We are both under the cap so we don’t need to match money. Gomes just adds $1M to their cap. Just sending us Humphries is a better deal for them. In fact if they think they can sign 2 max FAs they could send us Humphries and/or Yi and the 3 for the 16 and Pek.
I'll hold your monkey.
My idea was
We would have to acquire Dampier and a future first or something from Dallas for Jefferson and then send him to Jersey with Pek for Humphries + Harris (maybe a 3 way trade) and the third. Gomes could also be used, but Gomes wouldn’t be enough alone I think and Dampier might already be too much alone.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Then I'd trade down for
Randolph + 6 assuming Cousins isn’t the second pick. Though I’d be ecstatic with Cousins/Favors draft at 3 and 4 :)
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Little known fact about Wesley:
Coming out of high school, he was projected to be nothing more than a college role player. He worked like hell at ISU to become a good player and then said sayonara. At ’Cuse, he became a better player under a better coach.
If DMC & Johnson are both there at 4, I think you should easily take the BPA in Cousins and don’t look back.
I like players that have worked hard
and overcome expectations. That sort of character and work ethic is what sets apart the really good players. And it also makes mid-level players very very dependable.
Essentially, it makes it more likely he will reach his top than settle for his worst-caase projection.
I agree & Wes fits that bill
Except that doesn’t change the fact that he’s not worth the #4 pick. If the Wolves like him, they should trade down.
Felton Spencer
That’s what they said about him. Makes me think Wes has already overcome expectations just to get to this point. How much higher can he go?
It's one thing to work hard and improve
without having the best physical tools in the world. The equation on one’s ceiling is entirely different when blessed with a smooth shooting stroke, elite length, and elite athleticism. In fact, it woud have been surprising for him not to improve considering his physical and athletic profile.
by Rascal Flatts on Jun 16, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Felton Spencer: Worst sense of balance for a professional athlete ever.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Thanks for the info..
…and go Cyclones.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Still
in the take DMC at 4 and get wings with asset maneuvering. Also, Kahn admitting he made a mistake on judging Curry is troubling. When you are drafting at the top you can’t make mistakes like that. This was a double error. He misjudged Flynn and then Curry. I think the Canis Hoopusheads should have a chair in the draft room or at least forward the community board to DK, with the subsequent narrative, of course.
At least he’s vaguely willing to admit it. Most would continue to defend the pick relentlessly as long as the player (Flynn) was still on the roster. Hopefully, he’s learned from his mistakes and the hiring of Ronzone is a good sign.
While Kahn may have a healthy ego, he’s smart enough to know that he has to turn this franchise around or he’ll be gone. And he should be doing whatever it takes to do so (hiring Ronzone, listening to Rambis etc). He’s also smart enough to know that he missed on Curry (and that Papa Glen knows this too). He can’t miss again in this draft or his seat will start to get hot. Waiting on Rubio won’t be enough if 1/2 through the season DMC is ROY candidate and Wes is becoming nothing more than Wilson Chandler.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 16, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
I would point out
that
When you are drafting at the top you can’t make mistakes like that.
covers most GMs of most sports leagues most of the time. The success of getting a useful player in the first round varies, but is probably around 50-60% of the time across sports. The likelihood of getting a star in the first round is even lower. That’s not opinion but basic facts – go and look back on the the top five guys in the draft and see how many misses there are. Drafting at the top is by no means an exact science.
This was a double error. He misjudged Flynn and then Curry.
This is revisionist logic in the sense that after the fact you can prove someone was an idiot. “Oh, you took Bowie when Jordan was available? You must be a moron for passing on the greatest player of all time.” Or “McHale was a genius for taking an unproven HS stick named KG at 5.” That stick could’ve ended up like Ndudi Ebi, but he didn’t.
I personally like that Kahn admitted his mistakes, because that suggests to me that 1) he recognizes he made a mistake, and 2) his ego isn’t so big as to get in the way of admitting it. Why is this important? It suggests to me that he’s learned from it and won’t make the same mistake twice. I’ll gladly take him admitting his mistake than having him hell-bent to prove to everyone that he didn’t make a mistake and in the process make another one.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
Very true.....
but he still effed it up.
by Rascal Flatts on Jun 16, 2010 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Your point on
revisionist logic not taken. The point is he misjudged talent. And the fact that puts him in a category with other GM’s who miss is hardly comforting considering the franchise’s situation. That is also why GM’s get canned. Good for him that he admits error. But to say he hopefully has learned from his mistakes is a misuse of logic.
Drafting any player is a singular event and not duplicated. Very hard to learn a sweepng, applicable lesson from events that cannot be duplicated. Not putting your hand on a hot stove a second time is learning from your mistake. But the stove is in the same spot and the burner has the same heat. Doesn’t work that way when the draft and each player is different. It is a unique event. and drawing a lesson from a unique event doesn’t insure it can be applied to the next event. The point I’m making is that DK has yet to prove he is a shrewd judge of talent.
OK
That makes sense, but then aren’t you also arguing that each time a GM drafts a player they are essentially rolling the dice that said player works out? If it’s always a moving target, a “unique event” as you called it (which I kinda like, actually), then the conclusion I’m drawing from it is that the statistical truth of how picks work out is what will emerge over time as holding true for all GMs, right? Example – despite hitting on Durant, Presti ‘missed’ with drafting Green while Noah was still on the board.
While I understand and even agree with some aspects of your point, I still respectfully disagree as to the value and ability of learning broad sweeping lessons from the Flynn ‘mistake.’ I personally view this from less of a basketball perspective and more from a broad organizational and management perspective, and that is that any company, group, or team that recognizes mistakes in judgment and move to rectify them will, over time, improve against their peers.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
Another difference
Kahn was rather isolated last draft, surrounded by the old boys of the Wolves organization… one that he was hired to shake up and straighten out. Kahn doesn’t have a history with being a talent scout but in trusting HIS staff with those aspects. He didn’t have his own people around him last year.
This year there is Rambis and Ronzone, and you’d have to imagine that the assistant coaches have shared their opinions as well. Kahn was burned last year acting as the primary voice. This year he has some very experienced and respected voices around him. Now what remains to be seen is if Kahn pulls a Maverick McFail or listens to the guys he has hired for these very reasons.
by Krotz the Wall on Jun 17, 2010 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Sounds good on paper
Rambis and Ronzone that is, but Rambis didn’t exactly set the world on fire either. He wanted Pavlovic which was a huge failure and he wanted Darko, which the jury is out on, but we lost pretty much every game he played in. Rambis is infatuated with players fitting prototypical physical profiles with virtually no regard to production. Or at least that seemed to be his MO last year.
by Rascal Flatts on Jun 17, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Agree and disagree
I think you are ignoring the fact that we are humans and are able to extend our lessons to a broader picture. For example, if I touch a candle, I also learn not to stick my hand in a firepit. And I only have to do that once to learn the lesson. A more appropriate example: in math you don’t have to learn the same lesson over and over for every set of numbers even though those numbers are different, but you learn the rules that go along with it to apply to future problems. There are also some lessons that don’t need to be taught at all. I’ve never stabbed myself through the heart with a butchers knife, but I don’t have to because I can only assume it hurts like hell.
And yes I know this (especially the last point) is a bit of a hyperbole, but the point stands for all lessons. We have the ability to extrapolate data from an isolated instance and combine it with all the other related lessons we have learned to apply it to other areas of our life, even if it’s not the exact same circumstances as the first time. And while I’m not saying Kahn has the ability to learn from Jonny Flynn to only pick future allstars, he definitely learned quite a few lessons from it… Or at least we hope he did.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
To all then,
what are some of the specific or sweeping lessons you think Kahn could have learned from the Flynn choice and the Curry non-choice that can be applied to this year’s pick(s)? Or for that matter the lesson from the mistake of signing Hollins? I also acknowledge the difficult task of choosing players. So many variables to account for. I never expect perfection, and I’m hoping DK scores from downtown as well as slams it home in this draft. But based upon his body of work to date, I remain a skeptic albeit one that could be easily moved to unabashed cheerleader or rooted cynic.
Talkling to myself here.
Where I do think DK did a good job was cleaning house and accumulating ‘capital’. My skepticism comes then from the new furniture he purchased. I love the idea of Rubio. But he is still picking his pimples in Spain.
Injury
Wes Johnson injured his hand at Providence, on February 2, 2010. Take a look at his stat lines, shortly after that injury.
Here is one little nugget I found on ESPN around the time he started to feel better:
For the Orange, Onuaku’s injury comes with an especially cruel twist in timing. The quarterfinal game against Georgetown marked the first time that Johnson felt right since injuring his hand against Providence on Feb. 2. Unable to even pick up his laptop, he played in games when he could barely feel the ball in his hands.
Finally with ice, rehab and time Johnson fell back into his player of the year stride on Thursday, scoring 24 points.
I remember getting really excited about this Johnson guy, when he was blowing up in the pre-season, leading the best team in the country. He obviously fell off, right at the time he apparently injured his hand. That doesn’t mean he’s a future star, but it likely means that his stats suffered somewhat significantly because of this injury.
He's going to be a very solid pro...
..the question with him is value at the 4 spot.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Putting aside draft slot for moment
how good of a pro can/would he be next to Rubio for 5-6 years? At the end of the day aren’t we going to decide if a player’s a good choice or not based on what they give us 2-3 years out (example – Corey Brewer right now. Too high still at 7, or still better than 9 out of the next 10 guys that were drafted?).
It’s sort of like deciding which way the arrow goes:
DMC + Rubio is > or < Wes + Rubio
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
Interesting point...
Maybe the Wolves are targeting a Turner/Johnson or Favors/Johnson combo. If that is the case they definitely need at least the #3 and at least the #6 (if not the #2 and #4). Here’s how I rank our trade assets:
1) Rubio rights
2) #4 pick
3) Kevin Love
4)Flynn
5) Gomes’ voidable contract
6) #16 pick
7) Sessions
8) Brewer
9) Ellington
10) #23 pick
11) assorted 2nd rounders
negative value, trade liabilities/diluters
Jefferson
Hollins
You could throw in future first rounders as well…any ideas to net us two top 5s?
"any ideas to net us two top 5s?"
How about one top ten?
(waitaminute, I don’t think that works like that . . .)
fine, smartass, I'll start....
Rubio rights + Jefferson for Devin Harris + Dooling + #3.
Wolves might need to sweeten the pot a little, but it’s a start.
Ahh Doug
Classic.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
seriously...
I know we don’t see eye to eye on Jefferson’s value, but you don’t do that deal in a heartbeat?
Rubio may never play here. And I think we could easily flip Devin Harris if he stays healthy.
A heartbeat
is all it would take me to turn it down.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
by Xand1 on Jun 16, 2010 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm at a loss to tell if you're remotely serious.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Dead serious
We get the #3 pick, while getting rid of our worst contract. Pick up a nice, still young pg. All for the price of the rights to a guy who has said (at least in his actions) that he has no interest in playing here.
The second Rubio didn’t come over, I wrote him off as a trade asset.
Call me crazy, but that seems like a hell of a return on Mike Miller/Randy Foye.
Harris
is both worse and older than Jefferson and Favors is far from a sure thing to even be as good as Al.
Kahn would be run otu of town if he made this deal. I know we don’t see eye to eye on Al, but this is ridiculous. Al isn’t someone you dump in a crap deal just to get out of his contract, and Ricky shouldn’t even be on the table unless it’s for a CP3 level player.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
The second Rubio didn’t come over, I wrote him off as a trade asset.
That’s a terrible idea. Even if he said “I’m never ever coming to Minnesota no matter what,” he would still have plenty of trade value. Other teams want him and it’s not a problem to just hold on to his rights and get a good deal. It’d be a different story if he said “I’m only coming to the NBA if I can play for [team x],” but he hasn’t, so there will be competing bids for a point guard with the sort of court vision, passing skill and commitment to defense that Rubio has. Why write him off as a trade asset?
Also, I agree that Jefferson is overrated and overpaid, but handing over Rubio’s rights to get rid of his contract and land Favors and Harris still seems steep to ditch that deal. I’ve seen worse deals suggested, but Rubio’s the best player in that deal and Harris isn’t exactly a bargain, either.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
ok, so....
You’re saying the rights to Ricky Rubio in 1-2 years (maybe, if he feels like coming over) are worth more than the #3 pick in this draft?
Well, if that’s the case, let’s just sit here and wait for the Wizards to offer up Wall.
And if Jefferson is so valuable, why are the only offers we are receiving for him good, but not great players on bloated contracts?
I know that being a Wolves fan is at times an exercise in self delusion, but this is a little ridiculous. You guys are vastly overrating our assets.
Why don't you go test this idea on a Nets board.
Those fans would LEAP at that one.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
be my guest....
I think you’re going to find that most teams view Jefferson in the same light as Elton Brand.
He only works in NJ because they have Lopez…the number of teams that would even want him on a more reasonable contract is limited.
Elton Brand has arguably the worst contract in the entire NBA (I’d give that award to Arenas, but Brand’s at least in the ballpark). Al Jefferson makes less money and is a better basketball player. I’m a pretty vocal Jefferson critic and think you are going way overboard here.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
same light is not equal value
Elton Brand’s contract is definitely worse than Al’s. But they are not miles apart. And the gap is moving the wrong way for Wolves fans.
You're quite thoroughly wrong.
I’m not actually a huge Al Jefferson backer – think he’s oversigned, am sharply critical of his defensive play and don’t think that’s all or even mostly injury – but was pleasantly surprised this spring to find Houston Rockets fans talking about acquiring him and what they’d have to give up to do it.
Your assessments of both Jefferson and Rubio as trade assets are not accurate.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
where's the offer?
First, message board chatter is not necessarily a measure of trade value. Second, where’s the offer?
Jefferson has clearly been on the block since Kahn stepped in. I know of one offer…Deng + Thomas’ expiring. That is his market value until something better emerges.
I didn’t say it, the market said it.
I can’t see anyone offering Deng and a Ty Thomas level expiring for Brand. And I would have probably taken that offer for Jefferson.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 16, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hyup.
Deng is, like Al, “oversigned.” He’s a somewhat productive player.
I personally would take that exchange. Deng is a two-way player who’s just being paid as if he’s ‘the man’ when he’s not, but his weaknesses aren’t near as conspicuous.
Al’s post-up play is a scarce commodity, and I think it’s worth more on the market than it is in games. There are teams out there who’d pay for it, though.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Deng and Tt Thomas's expiring is not the same as
“contract to unload” on the level of Elton Brand, who is widely regarded as a toxic asset right now.
That’s leaving alone the “We have ambiguous signals, let’s throw in the towel” attitude about Rubio. Seriously, did you forget the SSRIs today?
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
signing a three yr contract...
with a team in Spain after you entered and were selected in the NBA draft was an “ambiguous signal?”
It’s a signal that he wanted to make more money and play for a better team than his previous team, where he would have been stuck for a couple years due to buyout issues anyway. The move to Barca does not concern me.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
the only ambiguity
in that action was whether he used the NBA draft process as leverage to get out of the contract or whether he just didn’t want to play for the Wolves.
He either had no intention of playing for any NBA team or would only consider a few teams. Either way he didn’t want to play for the Wolves.
What makes you say that? No team could have negotiated his buyout from his previous Spanish team (someone help me out with the team here, I think it was Regal something, but I’m not sure). He moved to a better team for more money and an easier NBA buyout. That hardly sounds like a refusal to come to Minnesota.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
DKV Joventut
He had a ridiculous buyout, like 7 million. Essentially, he would have had to forfeit pretty much his entire rookie deal to come play here if FCB hadn’t bought him out.
Like I said below, who wants to take the risk of playing for free to come join a terrible team? I think it’s much more likely that he’s anti-sucking than anti-MN.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
I should clarify
Anti-paying money to suck.
If he’d gone at the #2 spot I think he would have raked in at least a few more million over the course of his deal and been able to afford to come over.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Thanks for that. Forgetting his old team was driving me insane.
And yeah, that buyout was absurd. Lucky thing the Wolves (and any other NBA team) would have been able to contribute 1/14 of it. I can’t believe he wasn’t willing to fork over the rest of that cash and instead moved to a better team with a much more managable buyout. He must really hate Minnesota. What a diva.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Or
more likely, he didn’t want to pay money to play for a crappy team when he could stay there and make a million. There are two issues to fix: 1) the buyout and 2) the competitiveness of our team.
- has been addressed. It’s up to Kahn to fix #2 and show Ricky it’s worth coming over here. Until he makes a statement, I don’t buy at all that he’s anti-MN.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
False multiple-choice options.
Is this a religious tract, or something?
I’m pretty sure there are some other options for your list. I’m pretty sure they’ve long since been done to death on this site.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Seriously, this shows no understanding of the money.
If you don’t follow awful stuff like the buyout negotiations with Rubio’s contract, I don’t blame you – but I don’t think you should be making bald assertions about it, either.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
no
I just think it is incredibly naive to think that Rubio and his big money agent did not know all of this before he entered the NBA draft.
Keep lying to yourself. I am sure Rubio is sleeping in TWolves pajamas every night.
Of course they knew this. They also entered a draft where the consensus opinion was that he was a top two talent. He probably would have been more willing to fork over enough of his own cash to come over if he was drafted in the two spot where he was getting paid significantly more. Being drafted at 5 meant he was waiting a couple years to come over. This was not a surprise to anyone, really.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 16, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It was a surprise to anyone with a low attention span.
And thus, it was a “surprise” to our usual sports coverage and many casual fans. Those same fans are indignant at pretty much anything, though.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Ah yes. "Lying to yourself."
This rhetorical fusillade concludes our scheduled “tearing down the temple” programming for today.
I totally, absolutely accept that Fegan knew the situation when they declared. And you know what? I’m fine with agents.
You show every sign of being one of those fans who just really, truly shouldn’t watch while the sausage is getting ground up.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Bald assertion?

Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Al Jeff's value
will go up closer to the draft, and especially as teams start figuring out their FA plans. He’s still a very productive player who can help a lot of teams signed to a reasonable contract given his age and production. At worst he might be a little overpayed, and at best he’s a 23-11 beast who could make some team very, very intriguing.
Imagine him on Houston, for example. A Yao and Al front court would give you guaranteed nightly low post scoring at an elite level, very good rebounding, and one hell of a shot-blocking and defensive presence (Yao, not Al). Any team that already has a first or second offensive option could become even deadlier with Al on the team. His biggest issue here is that he’s not the guy to carry the team, but that’s true of 98% of all NBA players.
I think he’s got to be near the top of the list of fallback players for those teams who will miss out on one of the big FAs. Big guys are always overvalued, and in a contract environment where Rudy Gay and Joe Johnson might be getting $13 million + a year for 5-6 years, Al Jeff for only 3 more years doesn’t look all that bad. I think he’s got to be in the minds of a lot of execs as a piece to enable other trades to happen (for example, let’s say you’re New Jersey and want to sign Bosh but have nothing Toronto would want in terms of matching contracts. You could trade for Al and then send Al to Toronto for Bosh, as an example).
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
First off, I’m not a Wolves fan, I’m a Warriors fan.
Second, this:
And if Jefferson is so valuable, why are the only offers we are receiving for him good, but not great players on bloated contracts?
implies that I said Al Jefferson was valuable, when actually, I said:
I agree that Jefferson is overrated and overpaid
The offers teams should be giving the Wolves for Jefferson are good players on bloated contracts, because, essentially, that is an apt description of Al Jefferson. However, dealing Rubio for Favors is not getting value for someone who I think has a much better change of being a franchise player (or close to it) than Favors.
And for what it’s worth, I think Wall is an incredibly overrated prospect. He was a good, but not great player at UK and he had the advantage of passing it to Cousins, who has fantastic hands and was the best player on the floor whenever he set foot on the court last year. I wouldn’t trade Rubio for Wall. Turner is probably the only player in this draft I’d make that deal for and even that’s iffy. Much like Kahn, I’m “all in” on Rubio.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 16, 2010 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
you're right...
that was unfair. We are not that far apart on this. I was speaking to the group even though it seemed to be directed at you.
I even agree on Rubio’s prospects, but (and its a very big BUT) 1) he doesn’t seem to want to play here and NJ offers a bigger stage 2) even if the team is right you are waiting for at least another full season and 3)as high potential as he is, he is not a sure thing.
Rubio, ready to play this season for whoever drafts him is worth more than the #3. But that is not the case.
A year or two to wait for the sort of player that can turn a franchise around is worth the wait for me. Really, in this draft, Rubio’s question marks (shooting the basketball, arrival date) scare me less than nearly everyone else’s outside of maybe Turner’s (turnovers, shooting the basketball). Favors is still really raw, but he is efficient and rebounds well. My guess is he ends up closer to a healthy Emeka Okafor than Dwight Howard. I’ll hold on to Rubio before trading him for Favors.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Correction, a healthy, more athletic Emeka Okafor. Favors can run the floor and go get lobs in a way Okafor can’t.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
The funny thing about this argument
is that both of these players would likely be better if they were paired with each other :)
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Totally. I can’t think of a better fit with Rubio in this draft than Favors.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Except for Cousins
I’ve been saying this for a while. He might not be the guy who is going to finish an alley oop on the break, but neither is Favors. The only advantage I see with Favors over Cousins is defense and the alley oops (which sells). But Cousins I also think is underrated. Just imagine the PnR and apparently the pick n pop with Rubio/Cousins… ahhhh
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
my original post
was supposed to be a trade idea starter. What do you got…? How can we keep the #4 and Rubio and get the #2 or 3?
I don’t think there really is a good trade for those picks. Outside of Rubio and Love, the Wolves don’t have much in the way of assets worth moving a top 3 pick for. If NJ doesn’t want Cousins, it’ll be tough to move for their pick. If Philly wants to unload Brand and doesn’t want Jefferson, that’s a bad trade fit, too.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Have you been watching the finals?
Specifically how Rondo has been guarded? What is going to stop teams from doing the same thing to Rubio? I think it’s important to be able to at least drill a shot from the top of the key.
From the little I've seen of Rubio...
his shot isn’t close to as ugly as Rondo. Rajon looks like a guy who was simply never taught how to shoot. His arm totally flails out to the right and he chucks it pretty flat, usually somewhere at the backboard. He’s pretty good off the backboard. Rubio, again from the little I’ve seen, has a nice release on his jumper. Maybe Eric in Madison can weigh in, since he seems to watch a fair amount of Ricky.
The Kidd comparison works for Rubio's range shot
Almost a set shot sort of thing.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
The problem with Ricky
is his mid-range game. He is good ‘nuff from the 3-point line where teams can’t just completely ignore him out there. I think Flynn is going to bring it up a notch (shooting that is) too this offseason. Assuming we keep Flynn as our backup, we could have two PGs that are solid threats from beyond the arc and keep things reasonably spaced. Rondo just does sooooooo many other things well that he more than makes up for his mediocre shot.
by Rascal Flatts on Jun 16, 2010 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Rondo was among the best point guards in basketball last year. Everyone is playing poorly in this year’s finals. It’s hardly fair to say “Rondo hasn’t been playing up to regular season standards” when that’s true of basically every last player in the finals.
I don’t think a lack of range will derail Rubio’s career. And as Andy says, his shot is better than Rondo’s.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Lackluster finals.
How ABOUT that blowout win? Full of drama, that.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Up until now, we could at least take some pleasure in watching close, hard fought, punch-you-in-the-mouth basketball games. Not so much last night. Glad that was the game I missed this year.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Even those.
If we wanted to watch the Knicks punch people in the mouth, it would be 1994 and the league wouldn’t have changed the hand checking rules.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Yeah. I’m still pretty bummed that we don’t get a Suns/Celts finals, which would have been way more fun and spared us the deification of a likely rapist every night on ESPN.
This sucks.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Maybe, but loads of evidence is against him and I see no reason to ignore that and pretend he’s a good person.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Obstruction of justice and the trouble with proving rape charges in America. His lawyers leaked her identity, called her a slut, and dragged her through the mud. He choked her and in his apology after settling out of court (after criminal charges were dropped due to that obstruction of justice by his lawyers) he essentially admitted his own guilt. The quote was something like “I thought it was consensual, I now realize she did not see it this way,” which is essentially saying “Oops, thought she wanted it,” or “Yeah, I raped her.”
And on top of that, the stigma against rape in America means that almost no cases of rape are falsely reported. The Duke case is an exception, but the Kobe case screamed “athlete used to getting his way, doesn’t understand what no means, got too physical and forced himself on the girl.”
Kobe walking free was a failure of American justice. I’ve done a lot of research on it and it’ll take a hell of a lot to convince me that he isn’t guilty.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jun 16, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Game, set, and match.
+1
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Don't be mad
Because I gave cap’n props for a reasoned and obviously researched post.
Can you have a discussion without it turning into you whining or empty one-liners?
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
You just jump into every argument
with a “+1” or “Hahah” or some other worthless, d%#k ridin’ comment. You might as well be Ed McMahon and say “You are correct, sir!” after posts.
Credit where credit is due
I’m sure I’ve given you a +1 or a haha before.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
by Mplax on Jun 16, 2010 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
In fairness to the empty one liners bit, I think by this point in draft season, we’re all guilty of just making a snarky dig instead of a well-reasoned argument because, well, we’ve all heard nearly every well-reasoned argument about every prospect. I know I personally am one to just take a potshot for a chuckle when responding to points we’ve all heard a million times before instead of making even more points we’ve all heard a million times before. It’s that time of year.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Amen to that
Every post I’ve done could be taken as snarky. I think Kahn is overmatched, Flynn was a ridiculous pick for the triangle offense, and the Rubio pick gets an obscene amount of love on CH for a guy that may never come here. I’m in the minority, like a narc at a biker rally, but I come because of the wonderful posters that almost always disagree with my viewpoint
by Steve Jordan on Jun 16, 2010 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Absolutely none of that is true
;-)
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Well, I haven't done enough research
to argue with you, so I won’t try to. I appreciate your opinion and your post makes a lot of sense. I agree with a lot of what you said.
I usually think people bring up the “rape” thing with Kobe because they just don’t like him and that’s an easy way to get at him. But you obviously are a different case and have done your research. So, my bad.
Remind me again,
what crime was Cousins convicted of?
by ol' weird harold on Jun 16, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
The Kobe praise is obnoxious.
If Bryant laces his shoes on right, our trio of esteemed announcers stop to lavish praise.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Clearly push back...
from the equally obnoxious Kobe-bashing that has gone on for his entire career. Both sides are annoying, but it is what it is.
I'd just like good game analysis.
Kobe makes amazing shots. I’d love the hagiography to be limited to real moments when it’s relevant.
When I can I turn the TV down and get the signal on 660 or 690 with Hubie Brown. Soooo much better.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
It was kind of ridiculous
how people were coming down on him after Game 5 for being “selfish” in the 3rd when his teammates weren’t doing anything for two quarters.
But I agree. The praise can be too much at times, too. But then again, they do that with LBJ, Wade and every other superstar, too.
If we learned anything from Games 5 & 6...
it’s that you can’t stand around on offense and beat Boston. Lakers need to pass, cut, shoot, repeat. Even when Artest was missing, his aggressiveness was paying off. Celtics thrive more than any team in the league on isolation-based offenses. It’s how they beat LeBron and it’s how they’ve kept Kobe (mostly) in check.
Really I thought that was more true in the G2 loss
Bryant forced his own offense at the end of that one, and it was painful.
Honestly Kobe isn’t even that fun to watch any more as a player. He sinks unlikely shots, but his game isn’t all that…. thrilling.
I’m not a huge Boston fan, but I’d rather watch Rondo. The block from behind on Fisher? The guy is cat quick and efficient, and still exciting to see. His rebounding is amazing for someone his size, and he does it at pivotal moments.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
If you miss those Knicks...
I think there is a 30 for 30 on the night OJ fled the cops and Knicks-Rockets were on TV. One of those moments where you remember where you were when it was happening.
You're making several assumptions,
all of which have the effect of making the least possible value out of the Wolves’ assets.
No way would I come close to making that deal. If Kahn was to do something like that, I’d have his head.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Speaking of nice young PGs
Is there anything we have that can tempt the hornets to part with one of their two (Collison or CP3)? I can’t imagine us offering enough to be in the ballpark, but a PG now is better than Ricky someday.
That video reminded me of the one thing I absolutely love about Wes Johnson
Classic shooting form. Pure. Like Peja Stojakovic and Ray Allen. If nothing else, he can shoot
S-n-P...
….was that you asking him about transitioning from a zone to man-to-man defense? That seems like a question we’d ask that a guy like Zgoda wouldn’t
Not me..
…I think it was Jonah. Jerry asks very good questions FWIW.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Wow
Didn’t think Jonah would have the acumen to ask a question that might make him look bad. I like it
He's good too
Just remember that he is paid by the team so that is going to determine a lot of what he produces. It’s part of being a flack.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I really like his draft coverage this year
It’s probably the most comprehensive work I’ve ever seen the team do on it’s draft page
I still think of him as a fish out of water because he’s not an on-camera personality the way Mike Trudell was, but he’s grown well into the role all things considered
His background..
…is in radio, I believe.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Makes sense...hey this is off topic a bit, but...
….do you know anything about whether Jim Pete is going to keep commentating this season? I talked to Hanny at a Wolves function maybe a month after he took the job with the Lynx and he said Jim was probably going to have to decide this year whether to stay on or not
Sent him an e-mail complimenting him on it.
He replied that day, and said to suggest anything they might need to add.
They need to hire a copy editor, but Jonah’s working hard.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Was it the part where he missed most of his early attempts that did it for you?
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
lol
I was thinking the same thing. Yes, small sample size, but still…funny.
Made me feel for him.
It’s really hard to imagine being scoped out that way. Look at all the folks leaning against the wall behind him.
It’s a weird world.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
He does have great form.
Which in my opinion, is hugely important in becoming an NBA 3-shooter… that extra distance doesn’t seem to work if there is any sort of hitch in the motion.
Or Tim "knuckleball shot" Hardaway
I wish I could find the clip of Hardaway making the pizza shot. G.S. fans had a free pizza coming if the Warriors, in the Run TMC days, won and scored more than X points. They were a couple of points short, and Tim H. made a 3/4 court shot (if I remember correctly) at the buzzer.
Ugly shot, Tim’s. And apparently he’s kind’ve an ugly person, in some ways. He was always at least some threat from deep, though.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Ahhh
Reminds me of the game where Wally knocked down a J to give us all free Chalupas, resulting in the biggest cheer of the night.
When I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story.
Spell that quick:
“Szczerbiak Chalupas.”
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Marion's not really that great of a shooter...
I mean, obviously there are players who can really shoot with odd forms, but the BEST shooters…..Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Peja, Reggie Miller. Glen Rice. Larry Bird. They all had/have that classic form
Shawn Marion career 3pt%: 33.5.
Shawn Marion’s 3pt% last year: 18.5
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Yeah...
if we draft Johnson, I gotta believe we’re hoping to see something between 37 and 42, depending on how many attempts he’s getting. 33.5 on Marion’s volume is nothing to write home about.
Right. I was just commenting on Marion’s ugly form is not exactly a good way to discredit the notion that good form is really important.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Little Cousins interaction on the Ridiculous Upside blog
I asked a Kentucky fan who was a little down on Orton about the interview stuff at the combine. The answer included this take on DMC’s character:
DeMarcus has been fighting the mantra that he has attitude issues since he was like a sophomore in high school. The kid isn’t evil, he isn’t mean. He’s just misunderstood and a tad on the goofy side.
As far as his flags about attitude and temper, all I will say is this — DeMarcus got a lot worse than he gave last year…. I see DeMarcus as someone who cares too much rather than too little, someone who is full of such remarkable talent, plays the game with such intense passion, energy and heart, and who just so happens to have more personality in his little finger than a lot of people have in their entire body. If you take away the fire inside him you also run the risk of taking away the talent, too, as I think that one feeds the other, and I sure as hell don’t want that. He’s perfect just the way he is, thank you, and if your woofs (that’s cute, btw) do end up drafting him I will most certainly be coming over and introducing myself to your blog and your fans on his behalf.
This is “BigSkyCat,” bear in mind, so a very Pro Kentucky voice. (Down on Orton, though, for that interview.)
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
by feral on Jun 16, 2010 3:21 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Not to be negative, because I appreciate the quote
but this fan didn’t have to coach Cousins or play with him on the court. There is only so much you can see from the sidelines.
Oh, I totally get it. S/he's a Kentucky fan, and they're nuts for their people.
It was interesting to be brought up short because I’d said Orton was pretty eloquent in that interview, though. BigSkyCat didn’t cotton to that.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
You are right,
I didn’t have to play with or coach Cousins, but this quote from Coach Calipari, and I’m not sure if you believe him or not, but I do, well, the following quote tells me all I need to know about how DeMarcus was to coach and how he was as a teammate:
Calipari said he couldn’t be more impressed with Cousins’ personality and the way he respects his coaches and teammates.
“He’s not some self-absorbed jag-off," Calipari said. "He’s really not. He’s got a huge heart for other people. He cares about how they feel."
You can click here for the full article — Mad about Cousins. If ya’ll haven’t seen it, it’s a good one. It’s written by Jason King at Yahoo! Sports, so I would call it pretty objective and non UK-homer. : )
That was the article that took me from nervous about Cousins, in spite of his great play to confident in his ability to make the transition to the pros and be a great player at the next level. Cousin’s agent should hand out copies of it to every GM in the top 4.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Cousins' agent is not so ahead-of-the-curve
Eagerly working out with the team at #5, but stiffing the #4 when they’re willing…. The cover story for that doesn’t quite work.
"Sarchasm": (var. sarcasm) The gap in understanding which occurs when one attempts to be self-deprecating on behalf of others.
Speaking of Kentucky homers
So if we draft DMC, does that mean that he’ll be bringing some Kentucky fans with him? This might brighten up and get people at Target Center as much as anything else.

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