Waiting For The Other Shoe
by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 25, 2010 12:30 AM CDT
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PrintThere has to be something else. The Minnesota Timberwolves started the night with 5 picks and they ended up taking on additional salary while grabbing Wes Johnson, Martel Webster, Lazar Haward, and a few Euro players that will go over really well in a season ticket pitch.
Martel Webster is due roughly $14.3 mil over the next 3 years of guaranteed money before he enters his first option year. Luke Babbitt will get roughly $4.2 mil over the same period while Ryan Gomes can almost completely be wiped off the books before free agency. Not only did the Portland Trail Blazers add a dangerous three point shooter to an offense that values long distance shooting, but they did so with massive value, getting both the likely BPA at 16 and slashing money from the books. Even if they keep Gomes around, they still have a partial guarantee next year and his deal is always less than Webster's.
The kicker in the Webster deal is the Ryan Gomes contract. Gomes' deal is not guaranteed. It is a tremendously valuable asset in the run up for free agency. Teams like New Orleans, New York, Chicago, and Miami can trade a player for Gomes and then cut him to save money under the cap. In order for the Wolves to make the deal with Portland, they needed to send back roughly $4 mil in salary + the 16th pick.
Think about this deal from the Portland perspective. They were willing to give up a single forward for two forwards who cost less and perform a very similar function, one of whom has an awesome and valuable contract in the current free agency climate. All of this was done by a guy who was fired an hour before the draft. Did Kevin Pritchard correctly gauge David Kahn as an easy mark? We'll leave that for you to decide.
Here's the kicker about the draft: As much as I think it is one of the worst selection performances I have ever seen, it still has to be viewed in the context of the off-season as a whole. Hell, they have until the trade deadline to move Al Jefferson for a decent wing. That being said, on its own, it is a basketball atrocity. Even if you like guys like Wes Johnson and Martel Webster (and I do), they were acquired in what can roughly be described as Reverse Presti Fashion: a modest return on a large pile of resources. Whereas OKC managed to take the 32nd pick (from David Kahn via the Damien Wilkins trade) and work it into a bucket full of magic, David Kahn passed on or traded away the BPA at every step of the way for athletic wingmen and European players. The Wolves could have stood pat with their picks and walked away with DeMarcus Cousins, Luke Babbitt and Lazar Haywood while still having enough left over for stashed Euros while keeping Gomes' contract on the books for the upcoming free agent frenzy.
Viewed by itself, this draft is an insane mess. Wes Johnson will be a very nice pro. A very nice pro. He would have been a magnificient pick at #7 or 8. At 4, he's a reach. Martel Webster is a nice young player who may have been held back by the slow-paced Blazers and Nate McMillan's desire to have athletic swingmen stand in the corner shooting threes, but he's a stretch for the 16th pick + Ryan Gomes' awesome contract. Lazar Hayward had a wonderful workout and should be a decent role player, but is he worth a guaranteed contract at the end of the 1st? Who else was going to nab him?
Another problem for the Wolves was that by passing on DMC, they handed the Sacramento Kings a duo from hell: Tyreke Evans and DeMarcus Cousins. Say what you want about Kahn's desire for long and athletic players who get up and down the court, the Kings have found themselves a pair of gigantic bruisers who will stop those lean athletes dead in their tracks.
In terms of DMC, David Kahn spent the past day or so telling everyone in sight that the reason why the Wolves weren't high on the guy was not because of any attitude issues; rather, that Kahn didn't think he had that big of an upside. (UPDATE: Now his story is that Cousins wasn't long and athletic enough. I'm sure this will be akin to how he told the cameras that Jonny Flynn was the team's guy on draft night before morphing into a "Reke was our guy all along" take somewhere around 7 wins in January.) There are a number of ways you can go with this take. I believe Kahn when he says this. I'm more worried with his inability to correctly rank a teenage monster of a center with historic numbers over a 23 year old small forward with more nondescript college minutes than notable ones. Kahn ranked Jonny Flynn over Stephen Curry. He now has Johnson over DMC. He missed on several players at 16 (including Luke Babbitt and James Anderson, both of whom were drafted by 2 of the best drafting teams in the league). Granted, we don't know how this will play out in the long run but if it goes the way I suspect, it's the beginning of a very disturbing trend.
If the matter with DMC was his attitude, the Wolves just watched Sacramento walk away with two hugely talented players because they believe in their organization's ability to work with challenging personalities. That is just as troubling vis-a-vis the Wolves as an inability to pick the BPA. Either way you slice it, it's not good. The Wolves acquired a few nice players tonight but they did so at their own expense by letting their direct competition gain access to assets with far greater value. That's not good GMing no matter how you look at it. What will be even more frustrating is if Kahn explains away the DMC non-pick as him not adding length and athleticism to the team. (UPDATE: Kahn has done the expected by beginning to take this stance towards the guy with a 9'5" standing reach and a 7'6" wingspan and who ran up and down with ease at Kentucky.) That's insane and it will be yet another evolving explanation from the POBO. 15 win teams don't get to complain about fit. You draft the best guy and adjust accordingly. Also, who is Kahn keeping around on the front line? Aren't they trying to move Jefferson? They don't have anyone else signed. Love + Cousins is better than anything they currently have on the team and he's worried about what exactly?
Getting back to the Webster/Gomes thing, can anyone out there really say that Webster is better than Gomes? If there are any fuzzy thoughts about this question, why on earth was the 16th pick included in the deal? Again: this is an issue about value and poor GMing, not whether or not Webster (or Wes Johnson) is a nice player. It boggles the mind to think what Sam Presti could have done with the Wolves' cache of assets. What on earth could the Wolves have done to move around in the teens to get someone like Paul George or Xavier Henry? What about James Anderson? A ton of value was left on the table in this draft and it's really quite embarrassing.
All of this being said, I would be lying to you if I said that the Wolves were not done wheeling and dealing this off-season. They still have a large number of assets that can be moved around and they still can be players in free agency (via being a 3rd party). Maybe they can eventually make the deal with New Jersey for Derrick Favors. If that's the case, they're suddenly looking at something like this:
- Ramon Sessions/Jonny Flynn
- Wes Johnson/Corey Brewer/Wayne Ellington
- Martel Webster/Lazar Hayward/Corey Brewer
- Kevin Love/Nikola Pekovic/Derrick Favors
- Darko Milicic/Derrick Favors
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I did float the idea of trading Love for the #3 pick...
Doesn’t seem so terrible in hindsight, does it? You walk out with Favors and Johnson….that would have been really something
I’m at least glad the problem isn’t Wes Johnson….it’s not maximizing assets, which it should be.
A) It wasn’t Johnson’s decision to be drafted 4th
B) He’s still a very good player who goes a long way towards solving a problem CH harped on all year
I agree that this feels like a setup for something big over the next 6 weeks. Hopefully.
And I do think Favors will be a trade target
The Nets ultimately want a starter who can play power forward and be productive right away. Johnson, Favors and Cousins all hit 2/3 on that. Love hits 3/3
I wouldn’t say that..If anything they’d want Al. The Nets would be dumb to give up Favors for Love.
by packallday555 on Jun 25, 2010 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions
The had concerns about Cousins' mobility next to Lopez
And Al’s not any more mobile. Also, Al’s contract is enormous, and the Nets are looking to spend big in free agency. They won’t want to lock up that cap space in a trade
Or Love for #5, or #6
Pick Cousins at #4, now you can get trade Love for Johnson at #5 or maybe #6
How bad was Golden State’s Pick? Pick Cousin’s at #4, and GS may have traded #6 and another asset.
by ThisIsForSota on Jun 25, 2010 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Well,
Here’s to waking up to reports of the Timberwolves making a slew of incredibly clever trades…
I'm hoping for the same thing,
but if your planning on waking up to clever trades you may be sleeping for quite a long time. Hopefully I’m wrong though…………
Good morning.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
screw him...
…i want pritchard.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
well..
….i can assure you that he is not more agreeable, but i’d take either over kahn.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
you'll just have to take my word
the guy has an ego above and beyond pritchard.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
"if you only knew what I know"
This is becoming a theme in your posts and comments. It makes it impossible to carry on meaningful arguments.
whatever...
..either you believe it or you don’t. i don’t know what else to tell you.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I don't really care about this issue...
just pointing it out as one example of many. You’ve been writing as if you have a CIA file on the NBA. I miss SnP the blogger. I can get the scoop, with the millions of grains of salt it has to be taken with, from other sources.
well..
…when i figure out how to write about this damn team without the bs i’ll get back to you. it’s depressing.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
thanks..
…and i appreciate the input. i just have no idea what to do with the kahn stuff. i don’t want to be the ny daily news but i don’t know how to write about what i’m seeing.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
there is an easy answer here
if this summer pans out with the Nuclear Scenario (it appears to be headed in that direction) then do the following:
1) Shut down CH or hand over the keys to someone else
2) Write the tell-all post to end all posts
3) Convene an online forum where we all get together and decide where to throw our collective basketball loyalty (OKC? Sacramento? Milwaukee?) and then move on to greener sporting pastures
If down the road the Wolves have a decent GM (and Owner who knows how to hire a decent GM) then we come back. By then your tell-all post will have been forgotten or will be framed and mounted on the wall of the new GM’s office.
You know the best part about this
If CH collectively became Bucks fans, the Wolves’ hand would be forced. Unfortunately, that would also probably result in the franchise moving before Taylor realized that all that was needed was Pritchard to replace Kahn.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Uhg, not the Bucks though
Hammonds is more lucky than he is smart. I don’t think we’d be any happier there
I dont think I
could be a Bucks fan. Who do you really cheer for on that team? I’m not a Jennings fan
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:47 AM CDT up reply actions
I hate Jennings too
but they are our midwest neighbor and they could use some support. I’d appreciate Bucks fans doing the same for us if their franchise was like this.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
wow
we have a sorry, sorry situation here
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions
How can you guys hate Jennings?
That kid is seven shades of awesome.
Now work on the jumper, Brandon.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jun 25, 2010 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
How about we all cheer for...
BOSTON
they have KG..
and had a great draft…
plus they nabbed Harangody on the 2nd Round..
Big Baby plus Harangody.. What more could a fan ask for!?
Houston.
They’re easily the most contrarian franchise out there, under Morey. They weathered the loss to injury of two franchise players and kept right on swinging. They started a 6-6 center, with some success.
The only rub would be Morey’s stubborn use of those dang numbers, which rubs some posters the wrong way. But for me that’s a plus.
If I’m an NBA fan at all come November, I may well be a Houston Rockets booster.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
College BB
I think I’ll be watching more college ball this year. It gives me something to talk about at the water cooler and there’s a lot fewer ISO plays.
If it's contrarian you want
What’s the problem with KAhn?
by WinTheLottery on Jun 25, 2010 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I like it when they have some idea why they're contrarian.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
I've been considering a move to the Rockets for awhile...
I’ve always had more allegiance to a methodology and mindset, than to residence and laundry.
We still haven’t traded Love however. That is what will officially do it for me. For now I’m just going to continue to build my knowledge-base of the Rockets franchise, so I can make the seamless transition when Love is moved in a sing-and-trade for Rudy Gay at the max contract.
God I feel like we're all in
Toy Story 3 and we’re about to leave Andy….
by Bad News Wolves on Jun 25, 2010 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I believe it
For all the talk about Kahn being a used car salesman, Penn looks and talks like a Wall Street shark.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jun 25, 2010 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
The problem is
that articles like this are just fueling the fire that you are complaining about. Having people constantly writing about how Kahn sucks is not going to help his image in the eyes of the media.
I’m all for people writing articles to get rid of frustration. But people need to be aware that bad talk about the Wolves is fueling the fire and not helping the cause.
what cause?
sorry, i wasn’t aware i signed up for one of those.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I'm not here to root for laundry
I had season tickets in year One, I liked supporting the local team and I love basketball. But I’ve been through enough crap with this team.
The answer is not to cover up the problems, the answer is to complain MUCH MORE LOUDLY.
The current regime needs to go. We need to help the revolution happen faster.
I was someone holding out hope until this draft. Wes Johnson at #4 is the end of that hope.
David Kahn, is that you?
I’ll tell you what’s fueling the fire. Shitty decision after shitty decision. There are many of us who defended Kahn, or even extended him the benefit of the doubt until such time as he had the freedom and flexibility to make significant moves in order to improve the team. That time was last night. We had picks, assets and cap space. And we came away with a shit sandwich.
by nextmove on Jun 25, 2010 5:33 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Part of the arrogance of Kahn...
… is, as littleboxes said last night, that he seems to think he has some special ability to see something in players that noone else in the league can see. And so Webster follows Jawai follows Hollins. How dare he think he is way smarter than conventional wisdom/scouting reports?
by nextmove on Jun 25, 2010 5:36 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know...
…if he thinks he’s smarter than everyone else, but he certainly sees things in players that no one else sees. He is too focused on player type and unwilling to see BPA. Last year he needed a pure PG and that blinded him on Curry. This year he says he wants long athletes and it blinded him on the BPA in 3 spots. That’s really, really problematic. Thank God for the team’s international scouting department. Maybe they can salvage the operation.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I think you’re spot on here SnP. I was thinking the same thing last night. He gets tunnel vision on player type (long, athletic) and ignores BPA. Unacceptable on a 15 win team. It’s the equivalent of Raptors’ taking Rafael Araujo #8 in 2004 b/c the “needed” a center as opposed to BPA (Iggy). A 15 win team should never draft need over talent.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Thank you.
When did anyone say we were here to protect David Kahn’s image?
Having people constantly writing about how Kahn sucks is not going to help his image in the eyes of the media.
That doesn’t make a shred of sense.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
Sounds a Bit like a Cult Member
And how does blindly supporting a mess of a franchise help “the cause”?
I hear we're giving up a 2nd rounder in 2014 and Cash Considerations for Sonny Weems! WOW!
by Son of Gerald Green on Jun 25, 2010 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions
If Kahn is indeed doing a bad job
then putting a magnifying glass on his progress or lack of could be helpful in getting him ousted and getting a shiny new GM
What did the 5 fingers say to the face?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CBwX1891A
HaHaHaHa!
by Lord Smackington on Jun 26, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
nothing is wrong with giving up on Kahn
just don’t give up on your team, you’ll feel terrible when competence takes over and steers the Wolve’s in the right direction.
What did the 5 fingers say to the face?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CBwX1891A
HaHaHaHa!
by Lord Smackington on Jun 26, 2010 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Absolutely ridiculous
I might walk away for a week if nothing changes. I don’t know if I can even convince myself that this was the best course of action tonight.
Seriously Kahn, if NOTHING else, you take Cousins and trade him to Sacramento for Wes and a bag of chips… at least you would have saved some cash. Terrible. Awful. Attrocious GMing. Unforgiveable in my opinion. Even if he pulls some incredible deals out of his @$$, he could have had MORE value than he will. I’m officially on the “Fire David Kahn Wagon” and that’s even if we miraculously win 50 games next season. Then I’ll just know that we could have won 55. What an assclown.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
by Mplax on Jun 25, 2010 12:48 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I’m not happy of the choice of Wes over DMC at all. I think picking DMC was the move, in that it gave us leverage to make a trade if the FO doesn’t want him on the roster. Take the best player and trade him for more assets in that situation. That was a mistake.
As I said on other threads, though, going ballistic tonight isn’t wise or necessary. Wait to see how things actually play out before making assumptions. We have no idea what was on the table, what was actually available, prior to the 16/Babbitt-Webster trade. We have made gigantic assumptions about some of our assets on this board, without actually knowing what could be viable. I think it’s fairly clear that the FO was looking for every trade that could be made, based on the rumors we’ve heard over the last week.
Did we miss on something? Dunno. Could we have made a big trade involving extant players and picks? Dunno. To assume we could is arrogance.
The choice of Wes over DMC is the only genuine mistake I can credit tonight.
Did we miss on something? Dunno… The choice of Wes over DMC is the only genuine mistake I can credit tonight.
Huh? We traded 23 for 30 and 35. Atlanta traded 24 for 27 and 31. How did we not miss out on something there alone? Better pick for worse picks?
Again...
We don’t know what was on the table. Mathematically, we made our move at 23. Do you really think, suddenly, at the time of our trade, we went, “Well, shit… We could take 23 for 30, 35, or 27 and 31… let’s go with 30 and 35.”
I just realized I am setting myself up ...
To be the next KevinLoveJefferson.
by JMGrady on Jun 25, 2010 1:18 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hopefully.
If we cannot move Jefferson after the first wave of elite FAs, we seriously fucked up.
Agreed
But as it turns out, I don’t seem to understand what the word value actually means. Apparently, it means that products have a set price based on universal truths and not a flexible worth based on the needs of the individual.
I tend to think of it that way too
But that goes against numbers that can be put in an excel spreadsheet, so….shrug
Therein lies the rub...
It’s rough to be a vague advanced stats guy on a advanced stats heavy site. Maybe I’m not KLJ, but Tim Allen once removed. :)
You don't need to use stats
as long as you can be successful without it, great. But Kahn has proven that he needs something besides his eyes to tell him who to pick. He’s obviously not using statistics to direct his hand or we would not have seen some of the…. flubs we did tonight.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
I've been curious to hear your thoughts about this.
I assume you were thrilled with Johnson over Cousins, but how about the rest of the stuff?
I was happy with Johnson over Cousins
I actually thought the Webster trade wasn’t that bad, although I agree with everyone else that we gave up too much. Webster’s gotten knocked on here for not putting up stellar numbers, but I don’t know that he’s gotten the opportunities to show off everything that he can do. And being only 23 and having spent his entire career with one team, I don’t see why he can’t improve from what he did with Portland.
I don’t get the Hayward pick at all. I thought we would’ve gone with Whiteside or another big man at that spot, since we had already gotten our wings. The Euro picks are not very exciting for me and I know pretty much nothing about them, but I’ve heard from some people on here that they are solid players, so I’m on board with that I guess.
I am disappointed that teams like OKC were able to take advantage of teams like Miami and Chicago who wanted to shed cap room. It would’ve been nice if we could’ve done some of that tonight.
But I’m definitely not as panicked as most people are on here. I’m not running to Milwaukee for tickets. I think we improved our team – maybe not as much as we could have, but we still improved – and I’m hoping that our wing position issues may be solved.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
I think the big issue..
….is that…well, I like to think of this as a process check. Let’s say you have an employee who starts to show signs of doing something in a very specific way that is not beneficial to whatever it is you are doing. He’s a smart guy and he generally does good work but he’s starting to show a big blindside on a very specific part of his job. Being that he’s competent, he still manages to do some things generally right, but relatively to the competition, he’s a mess. That’s what I think is the rub with Kahn. He’s drafting for need and fit on a 15 win club.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Ocean, it's not too late
You can take that Excel class at a local community college and join us Stat-niks.
You’ll always be welcome at our table. :)
I get them for the most part
I just feel they get overanalyzed as the final word
Although in Kahn’s case, it appears they don’t get analyzed enough
To be fair
I also think Johnson will be a nice player, might even be a very nice component of the kind of running eam we want to build, I just don’t think he’ll be an all-star and the #4 pick is potential all-star territory.
Kahn had to trade and wasn’t able to do it.
I agree
Should have picked Cousins and traded him. The three teams below us would have sold their souls for him
I do think Johnson will be a great #2 or #3 guy on a championship team, depending on if #1 is a big man or point guard.
I’m just hoping the Kahn hate doesn’t becomes Johnson hate. Doesn’t seem like it here, but it’s showing up on the Wolves’ Facebook and WN feed. I feel bad for the kid because of that….not his fault things happened this way. He’s happy to be here and if nothing else, we should at least support him, even if we don’t support how he got here.
It motivated
Penny Hardaway :)
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Penny Hardaway was able to handle the ball.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
It's up to our highly paid GM
to find the best deal. To convince others to take a bad deal. He didn’t. He took terrible deals and reached at 4.
."Again… We don’t know what was on the table. Mathematically, we made our move at 23. Do you really think, suddenly, at the time of our trade, we went, "Well, shit… We could take 23 for 30, 35, or 27 and 31… let’s go with 30 and 35
I hear we're giving up a 2nd rounder in 2014 and Cash Considerations for Sonny Weems! WOW!
by Son of Gerald Green on Jun 25, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh there are few more mistakes that happened...
Using the Gomes contract and Luke Babbitt to bring back Webster was a mistake. The Gomes contract could have been a valuable piece in a trade, either as part of a bigger deal, or to bring something back by itself. Webster, though a decent player, locks us into more years and a good deal more money. We just got less flexible in what we can do, and I don’t think we went out and got Webster with an eye for a future trade.
Reaching to pick Lazar Hayward with a first round pick was a mistake. If you liked the guy, he would have been there at 35 and a non-guaranteed contract slot… even at 35 the guy is a reach.
I don’t have a problem with the trade of the, but we didn’t maximize those picks by picking BPA.
That draft performance was historically bad. Even if the Wolves turn around assets, and I think they’re banking on Al Jefferson being seen as a consolation prize or a guaranteed pick up in a trade to teams that miss on the top level of FAs this summer, the team is weaker right now that it should have been coming out of the draft.
by Krotz the Wall on Jun 25, 2010 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions
On top of what I just ranted about
my nightmare scenario was this:
Johnson
Hayward (Gordon)
Alabi
I think I’d take that over what happened. At least he should have traded up 2 picks for Willie Warren.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Draft
Was bad for value, but good for fit. After doing research, Webster will play SG for us which we need because Brewer is out of position there. Gomes didn’t fit on this team and Babbitt it seems would have been an even worse fit. He’s a lot slower than I realized.
Roster:
Flynn/Sessions
Webster/Ellington
Johnson/Brewer
Jefferson/Love
Milicic/Pekovic
I am hoping that Webster is good with his handle. He wasn’t a fit in Portland where they play slow and he was forced to play SF which I think was out of position for him, so there’s some chance of seeing untapped potential from him as a SG.
Whatever, the proof will be in how many wins we get. I want 30 or else Rubio might not come over.
That roster is certainly better than the 2009/10 team
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 1:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Martell's share of Portland's minutes over his career:
09-10: SG 1% SF 46% PF 2 %
08-09: He played one game, at the SF.
07-08: SG 4%, SF 48%, PF 0% (but a smidge there)
06-07: SG 1%, SF 41%, PF 1%
05-06: SG 11%, SF 14%, PF 0% (another little bit)
It’s quite possible he can play the SG effectively, but given their roster they haven’t given him any significant time there since he was a rookie.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
Two words
Brandon Roy. Of Course he wasn’t going to get a lot of time at the 2. By no means do I think this was even close to a good trade but I do think Webster can play the 2
Yes that's why I said "given their roster."
It remains quite unproven that Martell Webster can play the 2 consistently at this level.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
Man, you're just unwilling to say a single positive thing
about anything that happened last night.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
It was a bad night...
I liked the 2 euro picks! But the 2nd round does little to assuage the damage done in the first.
When a Wolves' ticket rep called me last week...
I basically told him, “All I want is the team to get good value.” Ugh. I’d really like to know whether Hayward could’ve been had at 45 and Bjelica or Prestes at 56; I’m guessing Bjelica would’ve been there at 45 but not 56 and that the other two would’ve been there later.
I’m going to focus on silver linings because I’m not switching allegiances to another franchise (I agree with Bill Simmons’ theories on sports bigamy): 1) They will have a stronger perimeter defense with guys who can knock down outside shots and get up and down the floor; 2) They’ll be able to play a more effective uptempo game; 3) the guys they added will reveal their abilities fairly quickly because they should be expected to play right away; and 4) they have to play a team game offensively because they can’t rely on isos.
I think even this roster would be in the 25-30 win range. But I’m definitely going to fewer games if there aren’t more moves to come.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 25, 2010 12:54 AM CDT reply actions
3) the guys they added will reveal their abilities fairly quickly because they should be expected to play right away;
And they’re already at the point where their upside is limited…so they better be good right away.
by Blond Ricky on Jun 25, 2010 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I think...
he’s saying Lazar Hayward would’ve been available at 45 had we not picked him in the first round.
Oakland Raiders
David Kahn is starting to remind me a lot of Al Davis. Al drafts the players who impress at the combine rather than the guys who produce. Kahn didn’t pick Curry because he didn’t have the right body for the point. When talking about Wes a lot of the talk is his NBA body & length. Granted Wes’ steal and block rate last year was excellent and I expect him to play good D and be a decent spot up shooter, I’m just not convinced he has the upside / time to do anything with that NBA body.
Agreed cept one thing
I agree with almost everything, but I’m not sure I’m seeing the greatness of the Gomes contract. We’ll have the cap space come July 1 to just absorb any contract that a team would want to shed via Gomes deal. Actually the cap space is $1 million better/cheaper for said team. We could still take Beasley or whomever we could have landed for Gomes deal off someone’s hands. Not sure we lost much there.
I agree on Gomes contract
CH overvalued it. Teams would rather take the free cap space then cut Gomes and pay the extra $1M for a few years.
by ThisIsForSota on Jun 25, 2010 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Teams don't want to save money?
I’m confused. Portland sent Webster’s 4.8 million out and took in Gome’s 4.3m and Babbitt’s #16 slot (1.37m – even at the max 120% that is 1.64m)
If (when) Gomes is waived they get Babbitt for slightly more than half the price of Webster.
"I was trying to focus on breathing," Milicic said. "I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die."
Martell Webster has a contract.
2010-11: $4.8 million
2011-12: $5.2 million
We won’t necessarily have the cap space come July 1st to do what we want. We just gave that up for Martell Webster.
There’s a reason contracts like Gomes’s are called “super-expirings.” This is not unique to Gomes. They’re valuable. CH is not imagining that, somehow, unilaterally. Kevin Pritchard, too, seems to have understood that.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
And from the initial presser...
..Kahn seems to think he knows something about the contract no one else does. He says Portland was doing the Wolves a favor.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Gomes coming back?
I think I’ve heard he & his wife are really involved in the Twin Cities community and are reluctant to leave town. Maybe Kahn thinks the Blazers will cut him and the Wolves can resign him.
I don’t think Gomes contributes enough to merit this qualifying as “a favor”, particularly if his expiring contract was as valuable as folks think it was, but maybe that’s Kahn’s thinking.
Could be that the "favor"
is they are cutting him for us and then we will get to pay him less…. That’s not a favor. It saves us 500K and that’s about it… I think that’s the number anyways.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Webster is better than Gomes
Gomes was a turnstile defender with little off the dribble. Webster will provide some resistance on defense (at a minimum).
Worst fears about Kahn were seemingly confirmed tonight.
The JAF/S-n-P whispers, the Simmons bashing, all of it just seems… spot on.
by LoveTo on Jun 25, 2010 12:58 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
yep..
….that’s my big take-away from tonight. my faith in the guy is destroyed. i was really hoping he would luck his way into something. instead, my best guess is that he overvalued his hand by a mile and is left holding crap. the lack of a jefferson trade is amazingly telling, especially when you consider that favors was their main target. they were turned away at the altar several times for jefferson. kahn completely overvalued him.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Which is made even more strange/painful
by the fact that supposedly not overvaluing the current roster was one of his biggest bright spots. If there was anyone I trusted to not hang on too long to a McHale dream, it was Kahn.
Agree with SNP
I’ve been giving Kahn the benefit of the doubt, but that ended tonight, at least in terms of his GM skills… Certainly the wolves needed athletes, shooters, and perimeter defenders, so in that regard the picks make some sense. However, the way the players were selected is what is so frustrating….
What other benefits of the doubt can we give him?
“His GM skills are horrible, but I’m willing to accept that the thing on his cheek isn’t malignant if he says so”?
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
here's a question from tonight
where’s corey brewer? they extended him to take 3 small forwards? good lord this guy is in over his head. the management of assets on this team is atrocious. they are a small market team with limited assets. they have to use them well and avoid duplication. tonight didn’t help.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I don't disagree...
But someone on RealGM posted an interesting article recently about how teams don’t choose players based on position but on the skills they bring to the equation. They lack ballhandling, yes, but the questions about these players are whether they can fit the roles they’ll be asked to fill in an uptempo system. Brewer, Webster, Johnson, and Hayward aren’t the same player.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 25, 2010 1:15 AM CDT up reply actions
I’m not going to kill a guy for drafting a player redundant with Corey Brewer. Brewer is a rotation guy not a starter. The mistake was Hayward. Should have gone with Whiteside.
I’m going to remain optimistic on Webster and see if this wing rotation works:
SG: Webster/Ellington
SF: Johnson/Brewer.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 1:32 AM CDT up reply actions
agree with you here
no judgement on Webster until i see him play as a TWolf and Babbitt as a Blaze.
but the 30 should have been Whiteside or at least Pliess
The silver lining!
I think I’ve found it!!!! And it’s not very good…. fjaiewrhkdefja;erwthaidusfhasd;rjhiewaohfkdsljfasdfjoiewrfa
Anyways, Al Jefferson’s value should definitely increase on a team with better perimeter defenders, a season more after injury, working out hard this summer (from what we have heard), and being surrounded by shooters for once… soo…. more space to be boring?
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Perhaps, but in a vacuum this is impossible to judge b/c we have no idea what was offered for Jefferson. Troy Murphy’s expiring contract? No thanks. Z-Bo and a swap of 12/16…i don’t know, maybe. It certainly wasn’t well received here at CH yesterday.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 1:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Thank you!
The primary mover in trades, to me, is what is actually on the table.
SnP
If you’re going to blast Kahn for not trading Al, do you have insight we don’t about the offers on the table? You’re making some pretty strong statements (not out of line necessarily) so it would be helpful to, at least in the case of the Jefferson options, have some context.
As I said below, Kahn would get killed if he traded Al for Troy Murphy’s expiring contract and the Z-Bo & swap of 12/16 wasn’t warmly received here at CH yesterday.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 1:44 AM CDT up reply actions
If you’re going to blast Kahn
There are too many reasons to type out that are worth blasting Kahn for right now.
You’re making some pretty strong statements
Not strong enough.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Weak
Mplax, I generally agree with your assessments, but I think you, too, have fallen victim to the emotional response to a draft that didn’t meet your (somewhat lofty) expectations. We simply don’t know what trades were available. If the crux of your frustration is Wes over DMC, I agree with you.
My frustration
is Kahn’s obvious disregard for value. Cousins over Wes, no matter what subsequent moves happen, left value on the table.
Gomes AND 16 for Webster leaves twice as much value as we are getting on the table for “potential.” I’d rather have taken Seraphin or Whiteside.
The trade for 23 has already been discussed why that was awful (more value was had for the 24).
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
I should add
I don’t mind the assets he selected per se. I just mind how he overpaid for every single asset he acquired tonight.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Our late round picks
left me scratching my head, I admit. I wonder who had the greatest say in that. I don’t object to taking Euros, but seriously, Seraphin would’ve been a great, low risk selection. I guess my greatest frustration, beyond Wes/DMC — which might’ve been the worst move in the draft in pure, ahem, value — is not seeing an immediate reward. We need that a lot. So Pek coming over this year is not a big deal, because he is Al and Love all over again. Even if he runs the floor better than either, which Kahn said in response to my question on Hoopus Night, that;s not a great pay off. We need to move a PF to open the roster to some extent.
I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on his player evaluation
just because I couldn’t see them as much because I have more to do and am not paid for watching basketball. But I will say, if all of these guys end up as bad as I would have expected, and Kahn isn’t fired over it… that’s pathetic. If a 22 year old college student who was focusing mostly on studying and the Timberwolves during the college season can draft better than you…
Now the asset value is another question. Kahn gets a big fat F for that tonight. And that’s not based on overvaluing our assets. That’s based on other teams overvaluing draft picks that they want but aren’t quite theirs. ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Wes over DMC was bad
but tolerable.
What happened at the 16 was atrocious.
I feel your pain...
your posts made me dig up The Rake archives for my own meltdown in ‘08. Here’s a nice one, right after the Mayo Trade:
Let’s hope that’s just a report. Holy shit. We traded OJ Mayo, and didn’t even get our 1st Rounder from the Clips back. Are we sure we can only get three slow, white guys from Memphis? Maybe they could sign Bobby Hurley out of retirement and include him in the deal. Memphis was right with us at the bottom of the league last year, and we’re really coveting their non-Rudy Gay/Mike Conley pieces? Yuck. I hope Love drops another 15 lbs and learns to play the small forward, or that is one helluva disaster pick. Couple it with passing on Jordan at 34 and words can’t describe what just happened to the fate, and more specifically, the potential fate, of this franchise.
haha nice
Like I just added above, I’m quite alright with them finding guys and getting them. But when they are drastically overpaying for their guys, that’s not ok. They left large amounts of value on the table tonight and that never yields a successful draft. IMO, if all three of these guys (Johnson, Webster, Lazar… who will now be referred to with his first name only from here on out. All in favor, say aye) are allstars next year, this was still a poor draft because we could have had the same 3 allstars and whatever we could get for Gomes and whatever we could get in the deal of Cousins for Johnson.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
yes
and I must also say that instead of trading for a proven mediocre commodity in Webster (regardless of large loss of value), I would have rather taken a chance on a Henry type player or babbit for that matter, who we don’t know where his ceiling could be. There’s more excitement in that- i would have loved anderson at that spot
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 2:04 AM CDT up reply actions
sure
but webster more than likely will lead to more wins next year than either Babbit or Anderson given he is already been in the league and has started on one of the better franchises.
I still believe that we have 2 holes on this roster. A legitamate running big and a shot creater on the wing. One of those holes needs to be filled with a #1 type guy for us to have a chance at being a contender. We still have free agency, AL, and next years lotto pick to fill these 2 needs.
Have you looked at his stats?
He did very little for the blazers. I think a guy who hasn’t had 6 seasons to prove his worth has more chance of being useful long-term than a stop-gap replacement level player.
I’ll comfortably say that Webster is better over the next 3-5 years than Babbitt or Anderson. The mistake is that Kahn wasted value in getting Webster.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
I wondered every games this year...
….what we would have been like with Mayo on the team. I still don’t like that trade
its sad
that in an alternate universe the Timberwolves could have players like
Ray Allen
Brandon Roy
Steph Curry
and even DMC
the BPAs that this team has left on the board or traded is an enviable (and depressing) list
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 2:06 AM CDT up reply actions
No you've got this wrong
those are the players we should have had.
You don’t want to see the list of players we could have had :)
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
haha
well excuse me. i almost gave us the benefit of the doubt there
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions
I was so mad we passed on deandre jordan
for nothing. Thanks for the bitter reminder.
I didn't have that reaction to Mayo for Love.
Want to know one reason why? Because I understood the cap implications.
Which we’re now squandering. For other people’s failed lottery picks from five years ago.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
Squandered
Completely correct! There is an element of luck in the draft, so a 16 might turn into an all star. However a player in the league as long as Webster has been will not become on. We were fleeced.
I don't have anything specific...
….about Jefferson but Kahn went on national radio and confirmed they were shopping him. I am fairly certain this was going on since the combine. I am fairly certain Jefferson was shown in a workout at the big draft camp at Target Center. I am nearly positive Favors was at the top of their draft list and that they needed to move Al for roster balance. They haven’t been able to move him for what I think most fans would have thought was a reasonable package. I would have loved the Z-Bo trade. Loved it. I think it would have been a steal. They could have drafted Xavier Henry or Ed Davis. Troy Murphy would have been great too…shaving two years off of Jefferson’s huge deal.
Ultimately, we’re going to find out exactly what Jefferson’s worth is and I think we’re going to be shocked. Offers were pouring in for the guy before the draft and they dried up when it mattered. My guess is that the rest of the league completely fed into the team overvaluing their “biggest” asset.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Supposedly...
The Wolves were trying to trade up to grab Gordon Hayward.
Talking myself into DeMarcus Cousins since 5/18/10
You may be right on the value of the Memphis option. I didn’t like it initially, but warmed up to it on Wed. A Wes/Henry combo could have evolved into one of the best shooting wing tandems in the league.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I think CH greatly overvalues Jefferson's trade value
I don’t think the wolves can get anything for him right now, not even an expiring straight-up.
by ThisIsForSota on Jun 25, 2010 1:48 AM CDT up reply actions
I was surprised
at the negative response that Randolph+12 for Jefferson+16 was. We could have moved up and gotten Henry. Plus the huge expiring, possibly voidable contract in Randolph. Of course this was back when i had confidence that Kahn could use that expiring to our advantage, but the gomes deal gave that confidence a big dent
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Completely agreed
If Kahn is the one who turned down the Memphis deal, that’s even more troubling. He claims he’s the one who shot the idea down.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Do we know for certain that the pick swap was included?
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
nothing for certain...
…but i have heard a bunch of yeses.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Love This Comment
I think CH greatly overvalues Jefferson’s trade value
Not sure if you were here before the draft, a lot of “Why Wouldn’t Detroit take Jefferson for the 7th, would have been a steal for Detroit!”
No, no it wouldn’t actually.
I hear we're giving up a 2nd rounder in 2014 and Cash Considerations for Sonny Weems! WOW!
by Son of Gerald Green on Jun 25, 2010 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions
Well the Simmons bashing
is based entirely on the Rubio situation, which I still think makes him Sports Oprah With A Head Injury. Johnson over DMC seems like a big mistake to me. The Portland trade, I’m less angry about it than I was at the time. It’s not a good deal when you throw the #16 in, but it’s not THAT bad. I feel like I can come up with a fairly OK argument on why it could turn out well for us. Not a great night to be a Wolves fan though. Remember when everyone was super excited about this draft, “we’ll have three first rounders!”, etc? This is incredibly underwhelming. We might be a touch better with Johnson, but man, not what I had in mind.
Wish we would have gotten Lance Stephenson with that 30th pick
I think he would have been a great complement to Wes Johnson
Same. He’s got an NBA body already and has some explosive moves to the rim. He needs some work on his J, and he doesn’t always give 100% but those things can be improved.
by packallday555 on Jun 25, 2010 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions
He can create his own shot
That’s the main thing for me. He can isolate with the ball and get shots for his team
Pairing him with Wes, in my mind, would be like having a young version of Ray Allen and Paul Pierce
thats a bit of a stretch
especially with how he performed below expectation at cincinnati
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:42 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah,
but there are a lot of guys who put up similar numbers… not all become Paul Pierce. He still would have been a better pick at 30 tho
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Do the wolves have a scouting department?
I get the feeling that Kahn picks and makes the deals. Maybe he fired everyone to save money and he is doing it all himself? It sure seems that way….
he ignores them
when it comes time to make a decision. imagine working your ass off to have someone ignore you.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Would it make a difference?
Jim Stack’s not exactly a basketball genius himself. Only guy who’d be getting ignored without a track record that warrants being ignored is Ronzone. And he’s only been there a month, and seemed to have decent say in things tonight
and then add a few former teams
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
whatever you want to say..
…it’s a pattern and it’s consistent with what i’m seeing right now.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
is this attitude
a contributing factor to Hoiberg leaving us?
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:21 AM CDT up reply actions
i don't know if it's attitude..
…or what. i dont’ think kahn is a bad guy. as far as i know, he’s an honest broker and he tells media exactly what he will do. his big blindside appears to be solely in the realm of being able to tell who is and is not a good basketball player. that’s it. yeah, he’s kind of condescending to a certain type of person but it’s not over the top. he’s a nice guy. he’s smart. he’s just not very good at personnel decisions. he’s horrible at it. that’s what i’ve heard from 20 different people. that’s the buzz. it’s that he calls up former employees and asks them what he should think about player x, y, or z. it’s that part of his pitch for the job involved getting rid of the stats department. it’s that he’s not consistent in his takes on this, that, or the other player in relation to one another. the attitude stuff is nonsense. the guy doesn’t have a good eye for talent and that is what matters at the end of the day for a gm.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Well, if he ignores people beneath him...
….it didn’t do us much good to add Ronzone and won’t do us much good to hire a Penn or Pritchard…
Ronzone hiring
I was hoping player evaluation would be Ronzone and Rambis’ domain and Kahn would wheel and deal (which I thought he did a very good job of prior to tonight). If he’s leading player evaluations that could be a problem.
Also, I wonder how valuable Rambis is in the draft. He spent the last 10 years in an organization that always drafts at the end of the 1st round. Perhaps he hasn’t spent a ton of time evaluating early lottery picks.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 1:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Organizations suceed or fail from the top down
The problem was and is Taylor.
Kahn is just the latest bad hire by Taylor.
Is any of this having an effect on you yet Oceanary?
You have mentioned how intelligent Kahn is, you’ve vouched for him, talked with him face to face, Defended him numerous times – where do you stand now? What are you looking for in this offseason? I ask not to be confrontational, but I like your opinions even if I (almost) always disagree with them
I hear we're giving up a 2nd rounder in 2014 and Cash Considerations for Sonny Weems! WOW!
by Son of Gerald Green on Jun 25, 2010 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes and no
Our scouts are holdovers from McHale’s FO because it was cheaper to reassign them than fire them and hire new ones
Nice call on Sacto
“they believe in their organization’s ability to work with challenging personalities”
I love that they took the two “character issue” centers in DMC and Whiteside after trading Spencer Hawes. Potential League Pass gold next year.
The one thing positive that I can take away is:
despite the poor use of assets, it appears the wolves are committed to running and getting more athletic.
Pritchard got fired by the Blazers
Time to say goodbye to Kahn?
Hoiberg
is smiling to himself right now…
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Good luck Ryan Gomes.
Class guy. We’ve known he was out of here for a full season.
I’m glad Ryan gets to choose his situation now to some extent.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
with all due respect to the mayor he was in the FO during an epically atrocious draft run.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 1:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Well if nothing else
we can shoot the ball a bit better now. That’s one thing we all thought was a huge weakness, right? Johnson and Webster help that and make us a bit more well-rounded. Maybe Webster takes a big step forward with more consistent minutes and a bigger role. And he helps defensively. It’s certainly not the progress everyone wants to see on draft night, and I know the money situation isn’t fantastic, but there is a chance it could work out on the court. And Webster played every game last year, so his health probably isn’t a big concern. I think it was a bad move, I don’t get it at all, but I think we’ll have plenty of nights next year where we’re glad to have Webster.
I really detest the Johnson-over-DMC move though.
Still confused why it wasn't Fernandez
But we did make some serious upgrades on the wing. Johnson and Webster are undoubtably better than Gomes, Wilkins and Pavlovic
kahn liked...
….webster over fernandez. again, kahn isn’t a bad guy or a jerk…he just values players in a way that is completely foreign to most nba observers.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
but it sounds like folks at Blazers Edge may value Webster more than Rudy.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 1:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Here’s a comparison between the two. I’m not saying he’s correct, but the two guys aren’t that far off in productivity.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 25, 2010 2:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I imagine the asking price was more than we’d give up. Webster and Fernandez are, in a lot of ways, redundant. Hard to say how much more they were asking for Rudy.
the asking price was...
….16 and 23 for fernandez and 22
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Webster is a better defender
Fernandez does not defend, but probably is a slightly better shooter.
Yes!
Not only great perimeter shooters, but BIG perimeter shooters. We should be able to really stretch the floor and make this half-court offense run smoothly. Jonny Flynn can kick it out for 3, and actually have the guy shoot… well, a 3.
When Favors went 3rd, that to me meant Jefferson will stay — barring a bigtime trade offer which isn’t coming unless Al goes out and drops 24 & 12 before the deadline (in which case, why trade him?)
Ya you're right
Maybe Webster takes a big step forward with more consistent minutes and a bigger role….but there is a chance it could work out on the court.
And what if Jefferson suddenly becomes a defensive low post stud? And what if Flynn suddenly develops the ability to distribute the basketball? And wouldn’t it be cool if all the spilled oil in the gulf turned out to actually just be chocolate?
Knock it off. Optimism only works when the optimist has a direct influence on the outcome. Hoping for the best does nothing when your fate is in the hands of buffoons. (And referring to both the Wolves and the gulf situation.)
Augustus Gloop, is that you?
And wouldn’t it be cool if all the spilled oil in the gulf turned out to actually just be chocolate?
I feel like that kid today.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
Laker fan here
I’ve been taking an interest in the TWolves since Rambis moved.
I don’t think Wes Johnson at the 4 was that bad of a pick; it was the safe pick. And DMC didn’t want to play for Minny anyways.
But the Webster/Babitt trade is baffling. You guys need outside shooting, so Kahn drafts the best shooter in the draft and then promptly trades him away for Webster, who provides nothing that Corey Brewer can’t. Baffling.
Quick thought – I think my main issue with the pick was that it’s the safe pick. You guys can make safe picks, but this franchise is not in a position to play it conservatively with a top 4 pick.
Which is to say that I think there’s much more risk for a franchise like us to pass on a guy like DMC in favor of the safe pick. There’s a huge risk for us in being safe at the top of the draft.
by museum on Jun 25, 2010 1:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It was a cowardly pick.
"I was trying to focus on breathing," Milicic said. "I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die."
by Auswolf on Jun 25, 2010 3:54 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Sorry ahead of time for my language... You can send me a warning or ban me for a month if you need to
it might help my sanity.
But here is Kahn apparently adding insult to injury by suggesting that Wesley Johnson, yes… Wesley Johnson of Syracuse can play the 2. His handle is better. Fuck that! Last year we got to hear all about how Rubio and Flynn could play together until he actually got a fucking coach who knew how to play basketball and more or less laughed it off. So much bullshit coming out of his mouth. The only people he should be honest to, the fans, he isn’t. Straight lies about who can play together and who can’t but he tells the media who is ripping his ass to shreads exactly who he wants. THAIETRHEIFJKDSNHYIREAJFSEDFNGKHRHEQATIE*JFSDKGIAERJTEFSD
WES JOHNSON IS A SF! DONT GIVE ME ANOTHER FUCKING EXCUSE FOR POOR DRAFTING!
Sorry… and thanks. It’s probably not quite off my chest yet.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
+1
who knows though, in a few years we may see a lineup on the floor of rubio, flynn, love, jefferson, pick your 5th (pekovic? sessions?)…
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:44 AM CDT up reply actions
completely agree with this…I don’t want anymore Kahn spin. Just deliver results.
by TWolvesFanInLA on Jun 25, 2010 1:52 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
I hear we're giving up a 2nd rounder in 2014 and Cash Considerations for Sonny Weems! WOW!
by Son of Gerald Green on Jun 25, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Oh yeah
since you obviously don’t know how basketball is supposed to be played, why don’t you learn about this magical thing I like to call statistics.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
I like Johnson
I’ve said this many times. I don’t like Kahn taking Johnson at 4. At the very least, you have to have a basic knowledge of asset value and know (how hard is this?) that there is more value to be had by drafting Cousins and letting someone trade up for him (that might even include Johnson, Kahn!).
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
95% Kahn
Wes Johnson isn’t lying to us about playing SG
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Wes is a SG if..
If and only Steve Nash 2 years ago is the PG.
by Twolves for ever and ever on Jun 25, 2010 1:41 AM CDT reply actions
I think it needs to be said again
If you can’t judge basketball players by watching them play, you NEED to use statistics to do it for you. It’s one or the other. You’re not a F*c$#%ing magician, Kahn (I censored myself that time! I’m getting better already!)
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
He's obviously proven
that you are wrong.
It’s neither.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Sorry
That wasn’t meant to be snarky to you if it sounded that way. I’m just mad at Kahn’s complete and utter lack of anything resembling skill.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
Wowzers. I don’t think I could have imagined us using our assets any worse tonight! It doesn’t appear Mr. Kahn has much of an eye for talent. And to add to that, he doesn’t seem to be a very savvy deal-maker either. That being said, what positives does the guy bring to the table?
I guess I can see how Webster could slightly help the team improve as well as Johnson but not so much Hayward or any of the Euro’s. I’d love to hear him justify taking Hayward over a Stephenson, Whiteside, or Ebanks. As well as taking Babbit over Bradley or Anderson. I mean, obviously he wanted to add shooters to the team but why pick a one dimensional type guy (Babbit) over a Bradley or Anderson, who both can shoot it but get to the rim as well? I guess it’s a moot point since the pick was traded for Webster but even there, I’d rather see Bradley or Anderson over him.
Tonight just didn’t make a whole lotta sense..
How he handled 16 was amazingly fishy
it went from shit like Gomes for Beasley to Webster and his BS contract for Gomes AND we give the 16 away… WHAT
by Twolves for ever and ever on Jun 25, 2010 1:51 AM CDT reply actions
Think we can pool together some cash
and buy our own draft pick? We can start our franchise off slow. Ideally, we’d have taken a contract from a team so we can start off with 2 players.
We’d at least get 2 wins per year.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
The problem with the "solid off-season" line-up
is that all the cap money goes to Darko, Pek, and Webster. Have we given up already on any kind of significant free agent signing?
I don't think we were
ever going to have a significant free agent signing, but I think the possibilities of a major S&T are toast now… really dissappointing how much we just wasted in the last several hours
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 1:58 AM CDT up reply actions
A very good argument for staying under the cap this season.
Just look at where it has got OKC.
"I was trying to focus on breathing," Milicic said. "I was just focusing on breathing so I didn’t die."
Can I change my mind on #4, #16,and #23 for #2
that would look awfully good right now.
In unrelated news
is anyone surprised at some of the guys that went undrafted?
I was surprised nobody took a flier on Scheyer or Zoubek for 2
Manny Harris
I wanted us to take him at 45… thought he looked like an NBA player in college, last year, the one time I saw him at The Barn. I’d like to see him get a crack at our Vegas League squad.
T-wolves = V-kings
A team ripped not for the quality of players selected/acquired but for the lack of value where they were taken? Why does all of this sound so familiar? Oh yeah, cause it just happened in almost the exact same fashion a couple months ago by a local team that plays a different sport. At least that team has a decent track record of past success to fall back on…
James Anderson
is going to have a solid-to-great season with the Spurs. And he was available at #16, and would have been a good fit for the Wolves
That was one of the picks last night that really hit home.
Gee, the Spurs did the simple, right thing again, partly by looking at the guy’s production. DUH.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
this isn't the end
this isn’t the end, it’s just the beginning. Kahn has PROMISED good things will come via trade and FA this summer. Just enjoy the summer. I know I’m going to enjoy watching Wes and J-Fly rip it up in the summer league in a couple weeks.
I suppose that works
if we can all just convince ourselves that Summer League is the actual season.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
The Vegas team isn't even NEAR as good as it could have been.
That’s how bad last night was.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
yep
and if Kahn pinky promised then i believe him…
by NuthinBurger on Jun 25, 2010 2:33 AM CDT up reply actions
That would be great
If only Kahn knew what a good thing was.
by oblivionspocket on Jun 25, 2010 2:46 AM CDT up reply actions
It's going to be a long few weeks
I don’t think Big Al will be moved til all the dust settles from free agency. We could still get Favors possibly if Jersey doesn’t sign Bosh or Boozer. I think they want to win sooner rather than later and would be willing to part with Favors to get Jefferson.
Another thing. As much as I was confused and disappointed by the events that transpired this evening I’m going to hold off my judgement at least for another year. It’s hard to figure out how good of a team Kahn has put around Rubio until Rubio actually plays with them. I was a big Babbit supporter but who can he guard. He might be too much of a tweener.
by Achilles Fang 1 on Jun 25, 2010 2:22 AM CDT reply actions
There is another angle with NJ
NJ was supposedly torn between Favors and Johnson, but “supposedly” took Favors because they weren’t guaranteed a FA signing of a PF. So what if they are able to get Boozer/Bosh/etc.? Could there be a deal in place in the case that they do that they then swap up Favors for Johnson + XYZ?
by Cedarpenguin on Jun 25, 2010 8:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Last post them I'm going to cry myself to sleep
I thought we got some good value in the second round. And I mean the second round not the last pick in the first round. If in a couple years we add a young Toni Kukoc and the Brazilian DMC to our team I would be excited.
by Achilles Fang 1 on Jun 25, 2010 2:26 AM CDT reply actions
I like the Eurostash in the second round. If either or both those guys reach thier potential we will have gotten some good value there.
by Achilles Fang 1 on Jun 25, 2010 2:28 AM CDT reply actions
Honest question here:
How many posters consistently watched the last season of college basketball? I mean, 90% or higher of every game broadcast on CBS/ESPN 1,2,360/Local coverage? It seems to me that everyone is looking at raw stats as oppossed to how the players actually look on the court.
Cousins does look great on the court… when he can stay on it. His attitude doesn’t concern me nearly as much as his penchant for not just bad, but mind-bogglingly stupid, fouls. I’m not his shrink, so I have no clue where his head is at off the court, but I do know that he lets his frustration out on it.
If you take Wes’s stats at face value, that’s just silly. He was injured for over a month with an issue in his shooting hand. Before the injury he was averaging close to 22ppg and 9 rpg, all while shooting incredibly efficiently. He was right in the race for POY.
Also, all this take about “value”: DMC and Wes’s value are both high, albeit to different teams.A contender is not going to want DMC, end of story. He’s not ready to contribute immediately and his attitude may not be looked at favorably in an already cohesive lockerroom. Wes has much more value to an already established team, as he can step right in and contribute.
Not to ramble, but one more point: DMC would be awful in a triangle offense. Everyone knows that the word on Kentucky this past season was to zone them because they had no outside shot. Part of the issue is Cousins almost never kicked the ball out for open jumpers; he’s a vortex on the block. Pau Gasol, he is not.
by Levance Fields Ate My Lunch on Jun 25, 2010 3:11 AM CDT reply actions
We don't run the triangle
It was used occasionally as a teaching tool last year.
And before before he got injured, he was doing nothing in Iowa. I’m not saying he will be a bad player, I’m just saying value was left on the table. For that, bad work, Kahn.
Buckeyes are red, Wildcats are blue,
I wanted Evan Turner, But DeMarcus Cousins will do.
cold hard facts
espn calls wolves biggest draft winner
portland is biggest draft loser
Ouch. That does sting.
That’s up there with when the owner gives you a public “vote of confidence” in the media.
"People do not seem to realize that their opinion of the world is also a confession of character."
I have already signed up
for the OKC SBN website. Setting the foundation for my offseason letdown and eventual switch of my #1 and #2 teams. Wolves will become a passing fancy that I will check up on and I will actually follow the Thunder. People can say all they want about the OKC owner being a dick, but the fact of the matter is he at least runs his team the right way (and they are actually fun to watch).
Glen Taylor has proven one thing to me here, he simply can’t judge an employee’s abilities and run an effective organization. There have been far too many “situations” in the wolves history to convince me that Taylor isn’t culpable at least on an implicit level and more likely a much larger scale. I think he is one of the worst professional sports owners I have ever seen. After the first round, I could only laugh because of how horribly incompetent the execution of that draft was.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 25, 2010 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions
OKC-Durant Jerseys
I already order my Durant Jersey. Here’s a great site if anyone is interested:
This draft was unforgiveable. Unforgivable. I don’t think Al Davis could have drafted worse.
You'll be back just in time...
For Harrison Barnes Tankapalooza 2011
Talking myself into DeMarcus Cousins since 5/18/10
My favorite part of the S-n-P post is...
S-n-P puts Sessions ahead of Flynn. And then complains about not going BPA Cousins.
Let go of the Sessions obsession. Ramon can’t shoot and doesn’t have Flynn’s upside. Sorry, Flynn is our BPA at pg until Rubio comes.
Also, Webster will start at the 2 not the 3. It’s Wes at the 3.
I’m not saying this was a great draft, but we did:
upgrade at the wing with potentially two new starters
upgrade the bench at the wing with Hayward
pick a couple good Eurostashes, especially Preste
Kahn picked/traded for older, more ready players instead of younger, higher risk/reward players.
blazersedge on Webster
http://www.blazersedge.com/2010/6/24/1536146/webster-appreciation-thread
beauty is in the eye of the beholder….
Gomes Trade
Poor Analysis by SNP
I think the best player in this deal is Webster. But even so, this trade seems to have brought out the worst in you SNP. Any objective analysis of offensive statistics shows that Webster is a better player, and this doesn’t account for the fact that Webster can guard 2 positions effectively whereas Gomes can’t guard any positions. I can understand having a difference of opinion about Webster, but this paragraph I’m quoting below flies in the face of why I come to this website:
Martel Webster is due roughly $14.3 mil over the next 3 years of guaranteed money before he enters his first option year. Luke Babbitt will get roughly $4.2 mil over the same period while Ryan Gomes can almost completely be wiped off the books before free agency. Not only did the Portland Trail Blazers add a dangerous three point shooter to an offense that values long distance shooting, but they did so with massive value, getting both the likely BPA at 16 and slashing money from the books. Even if they keep Gomes around, they still have a partial guarantee next year and his deal is always less than Webster’s.
I come to this website in the past you give me an analytic approach to the Wolves that the local and national rags just don’t give me. Then here, when judging this trade, you don’t factor in the amount of Ryan Gomes buyout as a difference in money. We were going to buy Gomes out, but the buyout is $2+ Million over the next three years in both payments to Gomes and Cap Hits. The better comparison is $14.3 Million versus $7 Million over the next three years for Babbit/Gomes (Buyout).
Babbitt is an unknown. Most likely he will be a failure judging by other #16 picks of the past, so in the 80% chance or higher than Babbitt is a failure, the Wolves win this trade. The Blazers only win this trade if Babbitt is a success.
Lost Opportunity
You seem to imply the Wolves got terrible Value for #16 and Gomes and should have done better, and I ask you what should they have done? There was a lot of talk about trading into the Top 10; however, none of the teams in the Top 10 traded out, suggesting there was no opporutnity. We could have traded with New Orleans similar to what OKC did, but after George went at #10, what would be the reason? Webster is a better fit than Henry for our offense, and is more ready to contribute immediately. Aldrich, Davis, Patterson, and Sanders could have been had at #11 versus #16, but none of these guys was a target. If Anderson turns into a better 2-way player than Webster, you may have a point, if he doesn’t, snagging Webster was the best use of our #16 pick. Until one of these draft picks prove me wrong or prove you right, its speculation anyways.
Financial Implications of the trade
The Wolves took on $7.3 Million in additional salary for a starting 23 year old wing player for the next 3 seasons. So they spent #16 + $7 Million amortized over 3 years for a starting wing.
Presti spent #32, #26, #21 + $8.8 Million over 1 season for an unknown in Cole Aldrich and a future first. Presti is a genius though and Kahn is an idiot, right?
Conclusion
It felt like you’ve had this post written for the past month prepared to lay the hammer down on Kahn and the Wolves in general for passing on Cousins when all the signs said Cousins wasn’t going to be the pick. The feigned outrage over Cousins on this site is laughable, and you played right into it with your “gut feeling” this was all a smokescreen for Cousins that you stated before the draft. That wasn’t a gut feeling, it was you wishing they’d do what you wanted them to do and when they didn’t you join the chorus of national voices that you previously professed to loathe in calling for Kahn’s head. I’m calling you out because I feel like I needed to, but I still love this site, I love reading your takes, and I really respect the opinions here. I hope you don’t lose the faith, and Wolves fans don’t lose a voice like yours, but I also hope we don’t judge this draft until Johnson and Webster start playing some minutes in a Wolves uniform. The three absolute worst players on this team last seasons were Gomes/Wilkins/Pavlovic and they are replaced with Johnson/Webster/Hayward. Maybe some trickling of optimism about how we should have an undoubtedly better team next season would have been nice here. Instead were left with the ridiculous notion that unless the Wolves trade for the #3 pick in the draft, it’s a failure. Agree to Disagree.
Great points
I address the buyout issue in a fanpost on the main page. They gain cap space this year but lose it in the long run. They save in the range of 500k-2 mil (we don’t know the exact number) this year while picking up Webster. They could have saved even more by keeping Babbitt and buying out Gomes. This also begs the question of “What is so important about that 500-2 mil of cap space for this specific off season?” I’m fairly cynical about the amount we’re looking at for Darko and Pekovic.
As for the Cousins stuff, I’d have you go back and read the Draft Board Numero Uno post where I put Cousins at the top of the draft list. That was the post that set off the TWolvesBlog nonsense and I still get nasty emails about it. My point for bringing this up is that I don’t think I’ve moved an inch on Cousins. My gut feeling was based on how Kahn handled Rubio last year. He didn’t bring him in for a workout and he fell into their laps. I thought they’d take the same approach this year with Cousins when he fell into their laps. I hadn’t pre-planned anything other than knowing that I’d base the entire thing off of one simple premise (that I have repeated over and over and over and over): they cannot take the 5th bpa in a 4 player draft. That has been my guidepost for a while and I made sure to repeat it several times before the draft because I heard so much about them liking Wes Johnson.
I put it up above the fold: they could still pull this off. This draft absolutely has to be viewed in a larger context. I’m cool with that. They’re just running out of bullets and my confidence in Kahn to get ‘r done has been severely shaken by his performance last night. He’s really going to need to hit a home run with the Jefferson trade.
Thanks again for the push back. I feel like I need to remind people from time to time that I’m a fan of the team and that means I get a bit…well, fanatic from time to time.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Jefferson trade
Call me crazy, but I’m not sure this is happening, now. I thought for sure we would leave last night with Favors and without Jefferson. Now that we drafted Johnson, I think Al stays until we receive an offer we can’t refuse.
I think they're in a pickle
Pekovic, Love, Darko….they’re running out of front court minutes to hand out.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
If they sign and keep Pekovic, yes.
If they trade him, I don’t see much of a log-jam. 96 minutes should be enough for Love-Jefferson-Darko.
RUMINT has it..
….that the big 6’10 point foward Euro guy will be here too.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Thanks for the response, you raise good points. Cousins is a polarizing figure, and I didn’t disagree with your take to put Cousins at the top of the draft list. I also acknowledge your consistency in saying that they needed to get one of the 4 best players in a 4 player draft. I think their is definitely some solid criticism for the Wolves in picking Johnson over Cousins, but I also understand that as a fan I don’t have to manage and coach a personality like Cousins.
I still wonder internally whether Ricky “mom cuts his steak” Rubio isn’t in actuality just as high maintenance as Cousins, and that’s partially the reason why we avoided him. Imagine Rubio coming over next summer with his faimily entourage, translators, international press, and seeing Cousins being coddled with extra assistants, or forgiven for immature gaffe’s. I could see the relationship between those two going sour awfully fast. But that’s all speculation on my part and I’m digressing.
I don’t want to imply that the optimistic take is the correct one, as who really knows what’s going to happen with these young players. In that regard, I think we all get a bit fanatic, and that is a right we all have earned since we spend our time talking about one of the worst franchises in sports as well as our hard earned money on Wolves tickets and merchandise. I watched the draft with my girlfriend’s brother out here in Seattle and I’m still trying to justify the Jonny Flynn jersey I gave him for Christmas last year. Sigh. Hopefully we are all in for better times in regards to this franchise in the near future.
First of all..
….I think we need to figure out how to incorporate the steak cutting thing into a Rubio nick name. Should we simply call him Steak Knife? I think Kahn can make it all up with a good Jefferson trade. That’s a lot of pressure.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
One excellent trade..
…should excuse a seemingly monumental waste of assets in previous actions. A great trade can soothe the pain and lead to more wins, but doesn’t return the value lost in poor moves.
Just a reminder to folks..
…to keep it clean and don’t be mean. Also, homophobic bigotry will not be tolerated on this site. At all. The next person who drops the word “faggot” gets banned with no warning. Completely unacceptable.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
So, now we're adding pieces to try and win now?
I thought the whole point of shedding useful pieces last year was to develop young guys for the future. I mean, there is no doubt in my mind that if we were truly attempting to win as many games last season as we could, we wouldn’t have let some of the players that came through town leave. So, this draft seems to be completely contradictory to the player development theory, doesn’t it? Afterall, our two biggest acquisitions of the night really only have the value that they are able to contribute now. I personally like Johnson and thought DMC wasn’t a good fit, though I agree that we could probably gained more value by drafting DMC and trading him for Johnson. If nothing else, Johnson’s contract would be slightly smaller going with a later pick. But everything after that pick was a mess. I’m assuming this is because a) Kahn is clueless regarding player evaluation and b) no other team wants to deal with him because he rubs so many people the wrong way with his arrogance. I thought his confidence was a good thing when he got the job, but I quickly learned that was more arrogant than anything. In fact, at last years draft party, my ticket rep told me that he bumped into him the day of the draft and wished him good luck. Kahn’s response “I don’t need luck” – which is telling of his lack of awareness of his shortcomings.
I say fire Kahn immediately and hire Penn or Pritchard. Heck, Pritchard was a dead man walking and still made a great deal for the Blazers. Webster was a SG stuck play SF because Roy is there. Babbitt will actually be a really nice fit there as a compliment to Roy on the wing. You can’t argue with his ability to shoot the ball. As for Gomes, he’s a solid bench guy, good locker room guy, and whether or not the Blazers keep him is a bonafide player in this league.
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
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