Trading Big Al: How I Learned To Love The TPE
by Stop-n-Pop on Jul 12, 2010 11:17 PM CDT
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PrintForget the Summer League for a moment. There's not a whole lot to be gained with making grand extrapolations from meaningless action with a bunch of not-in-game-shape D-Leaguers playing against a few lotto picks anyway. Wes Johnson and Lazar Hayward look like legit NBA wing players (one a starter, one a bench guy) and they both got dinged up in their first bit of NBA action. The end.
The big story today (and tonight--don't forget to follow us on Twitter) is that Al Jefferson has likely been dealt to the Utah Jazz for a package centered around the Carlos Boozer TPE.
(UPDATE: For the sake of the rest of the articles on the front page, I'm putting a break in this post because I think we'll have more updates throughout the day. While you're at it, don't forget to read Larry Coon's article on the cap, specifically sections 20 and 14. If the Wolves trade for the TPE and keep it, the league views them as being over the cap and they will be unable to sign any additional free agents. If they renounce the TPE, they are left with cap space, and they can sign free agents right away with the available space. Either way, they open up a bunch of room for possible moves. What will be telling about their plans, is if they rush to sign Luke Ridnour before they make the Jefferson trade. This would suggest that they plan to keep the TPE and operate as a de fact over-the-cap team until the trade deadline...or until they move or renounce the TPE...or until it expires.
UPDATEii: OK, looking back at this post, I've been unclear about one key thing. There will be no new TPE created with this deal and the Wolves will be left with cap space. I'm still a little unclear whether this particular part of the CBA is written just for expansion teams and I am working on figuring that out--do they get traded the TPE or just cap space?--but the main point remains: they look to be trading for cap space. Scratch the stuff about the two path route until I get further confirmation on that point. The bottom line here is that the TPE would allow the Wolves to exchange Al for cap space, regardless of what it gets called, labeled, whatever.)
Earlier tonight Jazz CEO Greg Miller tweeted the folowing:
I just approved a Jazz roster move that I'm very excited about. Planning to share details tomorrow.
A few minutes later, Tim Buckley of the Deseret News filed this report:
Asked if the trade for Jefferson was complete, Jazz general manager Kevin O'Connor tonight said, "I just can't comment." It's not know what Utah would send Minnesota in return, but a protected future first-round draft choice that the Jazz acquired in a February trade with Memphis is thought to be part of the package.
It should be noted that "agreed upon" and "completed" are two completely different trade concepts, so we'll have to wait until the final word, but I'd just like to point out a few things about this potential deal before we know the specifics.
First, Al Jefferson was not going to net the Wolves the young wing player they wanted in a stand-alone trade. There is simply no evidence of any offer being put out there that came close to accomplishing this goal. As I have mentioned over and over on this site for quite some time, Al Jefferson's time with the Wolves was largely like Al Jefferson's time with the Celtics, only with a higher usage rate. He is a wonderful low post scoring threat and that's about it. He's not worth his large contract and that high dollar amount makes him a very prohibitive trade prospect when fishing for young wing talent. The best chance the Wolves have at landing a young wing player is in a salary dump, and owning a large TPE is the best chance they have at making this sort of transaction happen.
Also, if the Wolves are able to gain an additional asset or two in a trade for Jefferson that includes at TPE, they have not only given themselves the best shot at taking advantage of a mid-season salary dump, they have added additional value to the roster. Al Jefferson for Iggy would be nice, but Al Jefferson for a 1st round pick and a TPE (which would give them a shot at an Iggy like player at the trade deadline) is even nicer....if they can pull it off. And yes, that is a big if.
This trade also has implications beyond the Wolves. If the basic framework of the deal is the TPE for Al, that leaves the Jazz over the cap, making it even more unlikely that they will match the Portland Trail Blazer offer for Wes Matthews. This could be interesting in that it opens up the possibility of Corey Brewer being added to the mix. How about Al + Brewer for the TPE and a young player like Kosta Koufos? The Jazz need a big and a wing and the Wolves could offer help on both fronts. Also, Portland...you're welcome.
If this trade goes down, the Wolves will face an immediate PR hit simply for the fact that they have moved the main piece of the KG trade for what will initially be considered as nothing more than a salary dump. It will also mark the final departure of any piece of the Big Ticket trade. That's a fairly momentous occasion for the Wolves no matter how you look at it.
As for the PR hit, that take is not without merit. If the Wolves get their hands on a large TPE, it will be incumbent upon David Kahn to make the most of it. If they simply let the TPE expire (which will happen one year from the Boozer trade), it will be a massive failure and the team should be highly criticized for letting a productive (albeit overpaid) player like Jefferson go for essentially nothing. However, it should be noted that the acquisition of the TPE gives them the best chance at taking advantage of a mid-season salary dump from a team that is looking to cut payroll during the 2010/11 year. If a team is looking to cut salary, the TPE allows them to trade a player for cap space. If Jefferson was still on the books, the Wolves would be asking the other team to take back a large salary, or they would need a 3rd party which would further complicate the transaction.
(UPDATE iii: This is the part of the TPE that we still need to get some determination on. The TPE may expire at the execution of the deal. The main take away here is that the TPE would be traded as cap space to the Wolves for Jefferson, thus lowering their payroll by Big Al's salary. That is the simple way to put it and it is the main point to walk away with here. I'll continue to work on finding out if the TPE itself is transferable, of if it expires, or if it is simply a matter of semantics.)
For those of you unfamiliar with the TPE, the Jazz acquired it when they traded Carlos Boozer to the Bulls. The TPE was created when Boozer was traded to a team under the cap. To put it plainly: they traded him for cap space. The cap space they received in return is good for a single year and it is worth Boozer's salary + $100,000. What is interesting about the TPE is that it can be moved for a contract that will bring the Wolves over the salary cap. For instance, if they are sitting at $50 mil near the trade deadline, they can trade the TPE for a player worth $13 mil/year and get away with it. They can also split it up into multiple single trades up to the full value of the TPE. It is a remarkably valuable asset, especially in the current economic climate of the NBA.
We'll have more on this proposed trade as additional details become available. For now, take a look at what assets the Jazz have that could be added to the deal. Koufos, AK47, and Ante Tomic are all good fits for the Wolves. AK47 would eliminate the TPE but he would be an interesting addition on an expiring deal. Whatever happens, if the TPE is involved, the final score on this trade will have to wait until we find out what David Kahn can do with the exception.
Until later.
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It's ironic that Jefferson wasn't going to get us a young wing player...
….but is likely going to do just that anyway in the end
We get the TPE, we get the additional assets Kahn wanted, we don’t give up Flynn (ya ya…) Not bad
It all depends..
….on making that TPE work.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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Given the potential for a hard cap
and that’s a big if, but it could be a huge tell for what might happen – but if the owners feel a hard cap might be coming then there might be a lot of remarkable talent available for the plucking this winter.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 12, 2010 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions
they will not be a hard cap
just a lower tax number
but
from the sounds of your post, Kahn landed what you would consider the next best value for Al outside of a young wing prospect, right? That was (perhaps still is) a big if. Despite all the owners throwing money around this off-season, some team with playoff aspirations is going to implode or not gel due to injury or whatever, and when they realize that they are hemorraging money due to the luxury tax – well I think that market will be pretty solid.
Yes, a very big if, but also perhaps no better time in the salary cap era than right now to be able to help a team avoid the tax, right? What if Atlanta falls apart or gets hit with the injury bug? Or New Orleans? Or Charlotte? What if Philly discovers that it’s either Turner or Iggy, not both? What if Denver implodes? Given the future economic climate of the league, I think now’s as good a chance as any to roll with TPE.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 12, 2010 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think he could have received much more..
…if this is the main part of the deal.
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Sorry, SnP but I'm pretty sure you're wrong about one thing.
The wolves will not “get” a Traded player exception. Look at Larry Coon’s FAQ:
The Traded Player exception is the primary means used by teams over the cap for completing trades.
(emphasis mine.)
Since the wolves are not over the cap, they don’t need an exception to complete the deal. They just get pure cap space. Which is more valuable anyway, since they can combine it with their existing $2M in cap space or other players to make deals.
I'm pretty sure..
….the TPE gets moved and is viewed pretty much like a player would be in that same spot. The TPE is being used to offset the salary exchange because even though the team is under the cap right now, they’re not under it to the extent that they can absorb the entire salary match required to complete the deal.
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That's right, Utah uses their TPE to get Jefferson,
but we don’t generate or require one, as I read it.
You can think of it as us having been the third team in the Boozer Sign&Trade: Boozer went to Chicago, Al went to Utah, and we got a pick + whatever other “assets”
Exactly
Anything else involving an additional player would have to be done in a separate simultaneous trade.
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Right, but we end up with cap space
Not some strange exception that gives us less flexibility.
Correct..
…the TPE essentially becomes movable cap space.
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No.
Utah had a TPE, they used it to acquire Jefferson.
We have no TPE, just $13M extra cap space. It’s more useful to us, because we can combine it with other players, cap space, and assets. So for example, with cap space, we could trade e.g. brewer + beasley for Iggy, but we couldn’t use the TPE to do that because you can’t combine TPEs with players.
nope..
…you definitely cannot combine it with other players. the tpe will be cap space but, i believe, it still carries the tpe restrictions about player combos.
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Since we are under the cap, we will not get a TPE.
And it is better that way.
Right. It's question 20 in the link above.
“The Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and Traded Player exceptions may be lost entirely, or the team may never receive them to begin with. This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap. If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then the team doesn’t get the exception. If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they had are lost.”
Watch a fight for everyone! @
Actually...
…You can obtain the TPE from the trade, renounce it and turn it into cap space. Then the Jazz can send along whomever they want later.
TPE could be more useful in some scenarios
For example, if we want a high-priced wing from a team way over the cap. If we just absorb the player in regular cap space, we have perhaps saved that team some luxury tax payments. But if they are still over the cap, they cannot roll that ‘savings’ into a different player acquisition. If we instead send them a TPE, even capped out team could use it to acquire a different impact player.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 12, 2010 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions
No, in that scenario, they will generate a TPE.
Because they are over the cap.
Oh - I see
Thanks!
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 12, 2010 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Practical scenario question
Not sure how much we have space or TPE left, but assuming it ends up being $13 mm, can we (1) trade for long-term deal worth $13 mm without giving anything up, (2) need to sign the player as an FA, and/or (3) or bot, or (4) something I’m missing? Again dense here, but thought I read and had this thing figured out that they were essentially and practically interchangeable…guess not
by PoohRichardson on Jul 12, 2010 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions
(1) With either cap space or a TPE, we could trade for a long-term deal worth $13M. Technically the other team would need to receive something but that can be, e.g. a top-59 protected 2nd round pick. (so nothing of value)
(2) With the TPE we could not sign a player to a $13M deal, since you can only use it in trades. With the cap space, since we are under the cap, we could.
The other advantage of cap space versus the TPE is that you can combine the space with players to take back an even larger salary. For example, if there was a player making $17M we could trade Brewer + Ellington for that player (and use up nearly all of our cap space) but we could not trade Brewer + Ellington + the TPE for that player.
Aren't the Wolves still under the cap without doing this deal?
If that’s the case, and if this deal puts them even further under the cap without adding any more salary before the season, does it matter whether they renounce the TPE or not? I get why it’s important to teams over the cap, but unless my math is wrong, that doesn’t seem to be the Wolves. I’m fully prepared to be wrong on this, though.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 13, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Dense Q
The difference? I thought TPE was more flexible or are they the same or pure capspace better?
by PoohRichardson on Jul 12, 2010 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Pure cap space is better if you are under the cap.
Because you can combine it with other assets in the same trade.
If you are over the cap, a TPE is better, because you can use it to acquire players that you otherwise couldn’t.
Is there a discrepancy between
creating the TPE and trading the TPE?
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
I'm trying to find this point out..
….ultimately, it doesn’t matter much with the end result being that the pay roll is lowered. I’m trying to find this out…whether or not you can actually receive the TPE instead of just cap space. The stuff about teams being over the cap is in relation to expansion, and that’s what is confusing.
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Thinking about this logically
the concept of a TPE seems to be something that the Players Union would have wanted in the CBA. A TPE wouldn’t mean much to the players union (whose goal is to establish a CBA that maximizes the amount of money players receive) if a trade such as this one did not simultaneously create additional salary cap space and retain the TPE. If the TPE just disappears automatically when it is used to acquire a player from a team that will be under the cap after the trade is completed, then there is no possibility of it being used to allow the owners collectively to spend more money on players. Which would make it seem like a completely useless tool from the Union’s perspective. If that is the case, then the only use of a TPE is to allow an individual owner to spend more money on her/his team without increasing the overall amount of money spent on players. I find it difficult to believe that the Union would allow for such a rule that has no purpose but to increase the frequency of trades (which players abhor).
We still traded the best PF on our roster, including Beasley
in exchange for perhaps a draft pick and a ticket in a raffle (TPE) that exhausts one year after the exchange. Sure, its time to rehash old arguments with selective stats in an attempt to bolster the argument in favor of the exchange.
While at the same time attempting to minimize the value Al has brought to the team, when healthy. Coincidentally this coincides with the heretofore unfounded belief that Beasley is the next “best thing.”
I find it hard to buy the concept of strengthening the team through a starvation diet.
You know, when everybody
throughout the league (including the Wolves) values him less than you do, perhaps it is not they who are wrong . . .
by PoorDick on Jul 12, 2010 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
Hey, I would value him less to
if I was on the buyers’ side and Kahn was on the other end of the line. Foolish statement.
If I'm a buyer, I'm going to low ball like crazy
hence, what you so-called plugged into “everybody in the league” types who have really zero sense of what “everybody in the league” would value Al for…in reality…need to take a break.
You really are arguing with yourself...
….at this point. You do realize that we folks who have zero sense of what everyone in the league would value Al for are about to see a trade go down for a TPE, right?
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No, you missed my point entirely
But you probably were on the telephone plugging in to everybody in the league lol.
I’m not disputing the likely trade, that has never been my contention (if you read my comments you would realize that).
What I am saying is that Al is the only proven starting PF on the Wolves roster and you don’t grow as a anorexic. Especially when Kahn is the dietitian.
Do you always take offense with people that have opposing views?
You mistake disagreement...
…with taking offense. I think you’re wrong, that’s all. My argument all along has been that Al’s value isn’t what we thought it would be and that he’ll likely get moved for a TPE. My take has always been that the 29 other GMs in the league knew Al wasn’t worth as much as we would like and I think we’re about to see that play out.
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and I disagree with your contention
Simply because you consistently repeat it doesn’t make it right. You tend to overstate your knowledge of what “the 29 other GMs in the league” knew about Al. In fact, you have no basis for knowing that but it doesn’t stop you from claiming to repeatedly.
I find that a fallacious claim not supported by fact. Sorry. Just being realistic.
"Simply because you consistently repeat it doesn’t make it right."
Glass houses?
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
No..
….what will make me right is if he is traded for a tpe and no other GMs hop in and offer something better.
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How could you possibly know that?
Have you talked to all of them?
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It's not just the TPE though
If we’re getting a first rounder and something else, that’s more than you were expecting, if I remember right
Hey, before you said you knew what the other 29 GMs
by their birthmarks. What is it? Sounds like you be hedging now.
Too many variables for that, my friend. As a stat guy you should know all about contributing variables, no?
But it doesn’t surprise me that you are now trying to prove an outcome based on a false premise.
No, we will roll with the TPE. We will see what happens with all the pieces we get back before making a true assessment on the worthiness of the exchange.
Flagrant
I loved your posts on Lebron. I see your point on seeing if Al can inflate his Trade value. The problem is you’re risking quite a bit of money on this gamble. Kahn decided Al didn’t fit into the System and choose to pursue Cap-Space to look at other options.
by Jose Cordoba on Jul 12, 2010 11:52 PM CDT up reply actions
need to play kevin and mike
that is why they did this trade
this is good deal.
it gives playing time to Mike and kevin
This is what I wanted us to get anyway
we have wings now just see what you got. If they can not play trade them later
Oh, I forgot, you're plugged into "everybody throughout the league"
otherwise you wouldn’t be saying that….right?
So why wouldn't a GM
who values Al more highly than Utah does get on the phone with Kahn right now and offer something more attractive than just alleviating the Wolves of the burden of paying Al $42 million over the next three years?
So true
Once the deal is done, we have to assume we got reasonable value for Al. Everyone in the league knows right now what Utah is about to get Al for, so is any of those teams can beat that deal they should make it so.
by PhoenixWolf on Jul 12, 2010 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions
You really don't know what the value of Al is until
the other half of the deal is complete. Namely, Kahn’s use of the TPE.
Because each situation is different
I realize this might bust your buttons, but every GM is likely to have different situations (note: I don’t make a claim that I “know” what the other 29 GMs think).
Part of the reason is that Al is coming off a 2-year injury
And, since this doesn’t give Al the opportunity to demonstrate he is fully recovered and in pre-injury form, the timing isn’t right.
this is still a good trade
I want to see what our wings can do
It's not a good trade
until you find out what’s on the other side of the TPE (up to one year from the exchange).
As of now, congratulations, you’ve finally gotten rid of the best PF on the roster for a raffle ticket.
So you're plugged in..
….to the rest of the league too?
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
by Bahlgren1 on Jul 13, 2010 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would not say he is the best
I think Kevin and Mike can be better then al
Yep. Look at Detroit dumping Chauncey Billups.
Billups looked like toast in the playoffs so you could argue that dumping his contract was a good move for the rebuilding Pistons but then they went and spent that cap space on Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva.
Watch a fight for everyone! @
no the move was not bad
spending the money on those 2 jokers was bad
I thought you ran a payroll Flagrant?
Remember when you said the Wolves would not draft Cousins because none of us have ever ran a payroll? Well it seems like now would be the perfect time to bring that discussion up again, because this trade saves the franchise a lot of money.
by PhoenixWolf on Jul 13, 2010 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions
I'll take a raffle ticket
over watching Al be the same Al for half the year and trying to deal him before the deadline.
He’s not gonna be here in the future, if this is the best deal it’s time to move on and you take it.
by Bad News Wolves on Jul 13, 2010 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions
You're arguing against facts, man
If Al is worth more than cap space, where are the offers? It’s not like we’re hiding him.
Exactly...
…the dude has had a For Sale sign around his neck for months now. That argument is like saying that the dumpy house at the end of the corner really has more value than we think it does because we haven’t talked to every potential home buyer in the country to see if they want a crack at it.
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Was that supposed to come with a
%
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No, and that's part of the problem
When you hang a “for sale” sign out for the summer, over time the value depreciates.
Or..
….the market sucks, which is a scenario I’m sure every home owner on this board can relate to.
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I would no go that far
its like we moved from the east side to uptown
Nope..
…we bought a $250k home and we watched as it sunk back to $160k.
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you too?
;) It’s always wonderful to see the county tax assessment come back with another 15% off the value of what you bought it for.
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or giving Jerry Sloan a heart attack.
Watch a fight for everyone! @
The interesting thing..
….will be to see how a guy without a really nice mid range jump shot can run the pick and roll. Malone and Boozer could hit that little mid range jump shot.
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The Jazz will put Al at Center
Millsap will be taking over for Boozer, which he’s done a lot already since Boozer was always hurt.
Don't trust this guy. He lies.
I supported the whole Al Jefferson is a center argument, but . . . Good Luck with THAT. Coach Sloan may just break down and cry with that defense.
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Jul 13, 2010 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
The thing is, Al is replacing Memo
So the Jazz are replacing a tall, doughy, offensive center who can hit long jumpers with a slightly shorter, somewhat less dougher, offensive center who can operate in the post.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 13, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Everyone is entitled to his own conjecture...
I’ll side with the house being on the market all summer and realizing that buyer’s look at the time on the market before deciding on a price.
Except..
….that in this analogy, the former owners have announced their immediate intentions to move as quickly as possible. Kahn has already packed up the van.
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I can think of a few more things that are laughable at this point...
…seriously, listen to your own advice about repeating things.
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Ouch
The depreciating home value analogy is hitting too close to home for someone who has had his house on the market for 4 months now.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
Pun intended?
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Wetre talking about economics here
Not politics.
by stuntmonkeys on Jul 13, 2010 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
I think love could be better than jefferson
Love has a better all round game then Jefferson
The truth of the situation
is that Jefferson’s trade value has dropped dramatically since it was proven last year that he and Love do not make a good combination. The common consensus is that because they don’t play well together on the floor one of them needs to be traded. At this point Jefferson is what he is and Love is viewed by most to have more upside. Whether or not Love really does have more upside is irrelevant. Whether or not Love is better is irrelevant. The consensus view is that Love has more value to this team than Jefferson does, so Jefferson must be traded. Considering that view, the other GM’s have reduced their opinion of Jefferson’s worth. This is evident by the fact that we haven’t received any better offers for Jefferson. Why would any GM (David Kahn included) accept anything other than the best offer for a player? Bear in mind that the best offer may also be one that returns less value in exchange for the player going to a team where he will not be as beneficial to them or as detrimental to you (we may call this the “Brett Favre corollary” to offer valuation – the Vikings would have offered more to the Packers for Favre than the Jets did, but having Favre not play against them as often was worth more to the Packers). Having said that and considering that the Wolves are likely to take a package of a TPE and a conditional future first rounder or first rounders from a team within the division, it seems clear that David Kahn either a) couldn’t get a better offer than that, or b) could get a better offer but thinks playing against Jefferson more often is a good thing – thereby evidencing a low opinion of Jefferson’s abilities.
Helps Jazz hurts Portland
In my opinion there is no chance the Jazz match that Mathews contract now. I think that is vastly overpaying him and the Blazers will regret it. Plus it could lead to Rudy coming to MN. This trade could turn into a way for the Wolves to get Rudy.
by jama on Jul 12, 2010 11:30 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
I was just thinking that.
We will have no need for Rudy now. Might as well play with Rubio.
by hoodieNation on Jul 12, 2010 11:37 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
A separate...
…. simultaneous trade that would have to involve an additional player to be completed at the same time.
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I.e.
Brewer….I didn’t exactly word that well up top. My bad.
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I'd be stunned if Tomic would be involved
He’d be a nice get.
Stop N Pop
Do you have any thoughts on the Potential Ridnour Pick-Up??
There has to be another shoe to drop..
…with Sessions or Flynn. I have to see what they have in mind before that signing. I like Sessions a lot as a backup.
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yeah..
…i didn’t want to sound conspiratorial about that earlier, but i had the same reaction. seemed kind of funny.
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I don't think it is Flynn
In recent Kahn remarks, he still talks about Flynn a lot and almost never mentions Sessions. I think Sessions was a value acquisition. Ridnour is probably a better fit in Kahn’s mind because of his (1) shooting, (2) veteran wisdom. It might also settle one of the many position battles, in case that is a priority chemistry-wise.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 12, 2010 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree...
…Trading FLynn would be admitting a mistake. I am not sure Kahn is willing to take that hit unless a really good pitch comes across his plate.
Did Tomic sign a straight 3 year deal with Real Madrid this January or is there an opt out contract?
yep..
….3 1/2 according to wikipedia.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Here
Real Madrid signed young center Ante Tomic to a multi-year deal through the end of the 2012-13 season, the club announced Monday. Tomic (217, 22) arrives from KK Zagreb, where he has been the team’s brightest star in recent seasons. He leads the Adriatic League in scoring with 18.4 points and in rebounding with 8.7 boards through 16 games this season. Last season he was the Adriatic League’s player of the week five times as he posted averages of 15.5 points, fifth in the league, and a league best 8.6 boards in 24 games. Among his career highlights are wining the 2008 Croatian cup with Zagreb and playing for the various Croatian junior national teams. At Madrid he is expected to slide right into the big man rotation, helping make up for the loss of center Tomas van den Spiegel to injury.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
The only logical thoughts about Ridnour
Is they consider him to be a perfect mentor/back-up to Rubio.
I like the cap space anyway
roll what we got and let the chips fall
Yea, I'm waiting for when I go to the next game
and instead of the game, we get an overhead of all the TPE permutations, cap space, and sign and trade possibilities.
Much more meaningful to Joe Sixpack and his family, don’t you agree?
Also..
…I made one mistake about the KG trade: Flynn was a part of that deal as well. He’s still with the club.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Nope.
Wyn’s chart is wrong on that one. Flynn was “minnesota’s own pick” and we could not have conveyed it to Boston because we have not yet conveyed the first-rounder we owed to LAC from the Jaric trade.
Flynn..
….was the Wally pick. But yeah, there may be some issues with the timing with the Clips pick. We’re not really sure how league rules speak to that. It’s not clear cut because it was based on both a time line and the team’s record. Since they sucked, they got out of the Clippers pick and the KG trade kicked back the Wally pick, which ended up being Flynn.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Ellington..
…is also a part of the trade.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Yup, that one is for sure.
Boston’s own first round pick.
Sorry Stop, but Flynn...
…was not the pick the Wolves got back from Boston (the “Wally pick”). This comes up a lot, and was kind of misreported by all the official sources at the time of the trade.
The pick the Wolves owed Boston was never going to be transferred until 2 years after the Clippers get our pick.
Protected picks get reported in a confusing way. At the time of the trade, it was POSSIBLE that we’d give our pick to Boston in 2009, the year we picked Flynn. So all the news articles about the trade at the time listed it as “Minnesota’s own 2009 1st round pick.” In reality, the protections meant the pick might be 2009 or might be a future year after that. There should have been a giant asterisk in all the articles that called it Minnesota’s 2009 pick.
So we still don’t know which future Twolves draft pick was actually returned to us in the KG trade.
The protections on that pick get even more complicated, and in reality the hypothetical pick is probably going to be our 2nd rounder because it took so long to give up the pick to the Clippers. I’m not sure if it’s our 2012, 2013, or maybe even 2014 second rounder, but it’s one of those. (If the Wolves get out of the top 10 draft picks next year, that might change things yet again.)
So what we ended up getting back from Boston in that trade is our own 2nd round pick in one of the next few years.
Damn, every time I try to write about this topic I produce a wall of text and I can’t seem to make it clear. No wonder it keeps getting misreported…
Yes and no
The pick we got from Boston was used on Flynn. Because all the protections we had on it when traded to Boston, were removed when it was returned to us.
However if we didn’t recoup our owed pick from Boston, we would have still had the Flynn pick and would have still owed Boston a pick 2 years after we give our owed pick to the Clippers.
So it really depends on how you want to look at it.
Really confusing...
I see both sides of this but if that pick wouldn’t have gone to Boston anyway how can Flynn be considered the pick we got from Boston?
A little of the chicken and the egg
We basically received the pick we already had in exchange for not owing a future pick.
the pick we got back
I think would have turned into the 2013 or 2012 2nd rounder instead of the first rounder. More than a little complicated to depict.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 13, 2010 7:30 AM CDT up reply actions
Is it possible
that Utah matches Portland on Matthews and they send him our way as part of the deal?
The trade wouldn't be able to go down until December.
Watch a fight for everyone! @
Matthews could refuse any trade for up to one year, also.
So they would need his help to do the deal.
McHale's Comments
Anyone watching or able to get NBATV with McHale on Summer League game link or text of his comments when AlJeff trade was learned about late tonight is a thing of beauty — approx 12:45 est…
by PoohRichardson on Jul 12, 2010 11:47 PM CDT reply actions
Al Jeff is about to go, DA says, to Utah Jazz...
Something like…Utah’s been aggressive, they get Al…one 20-10 for ‘dem, ’nother 20-10 guy for ’dem [MN]…good for Al and good for the Utah Jazz…I coached Al…he’s going to play a little of this, little of that…similar, but different than Boozer…good for Al, good for Jazz…be interesting what goes to MN because of his decent contract will be good to see that …he can win there…(paraphrased dialogue of McHale)…
Not saying bad, but if anyone listened live, McHale was soooo one-sided
by PoohRichardson on Jul 13, 2010 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions
fuck Mchale
we could have drafted my boy danny G but no.
I really wanted him that year too
But I also was happy with drafting Rashad. So I can’t really pat my own back there.
i was too
but he had springs before he blew out his knee. i’m not sure i should actually admit this, but initially, i was excited to see what Foye and McCants could do together.
WOW was i wrong. i mean…..WOW!!
I knew danny when he was just a kid
I would have loved to see him with the wolves
A little more quote from McHale...
…commentator..related to DWilliams complaint about roster…, “he can put the ball in the hole…”…should work well in Jerry Sloan’s offense…no question…".
The best moment is when conversation goes it’ll be interesting what will be going to Minnesota and the exchange goes, “ya…ya…gotta be somthing…Al’s gotta decent contract.”
A Minnesotan trashing MN sports is the worst in terms of respectability outside MN
by PoohRichardson on Jul 13, 2010 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions
McHale was pretty constructive
Now, I’m envisioning several of your heads exploding. Afterall, the evil McFail brought the lousy Jefferson here, right?
But Mac simply stated that he thought Al was going to a pretty good team with a great point guard.
As I’ve contended all along, if Al had some support instead of a team fully capable of 15-wins, he will have a great opportunity.
I think most everyone would agree with that
I look forward to seeing what he can do in Utah.
That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t deal him.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
Too tired to argue
[Something about pruning a bonsai tree]
or maybe
[Something about nutrition from multiple food groups]
I dunno, wax on, wax off.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
McHale just cut bait to save himself...
…he subtly said MN screwed itself with no comparison or defense to his own actions….so bad interview and acknowledgement that hey I had the job about 18 months ago…
by PoohRichardson on Jul 13, 2010 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Perhaps the reason that Al's teams always win 15 games...
…is partially his fault? Low-efficiency offense that grinds to a halt when the ball is in his hands, matador defense, etc.
If dude was ever really that good he wouldn’t have been on so many absolutely putrid teams. His nightly 20-10 was always a pretty empty one.
Partially, sure.
But, he never should have been a center. Or, he needed a defensive big protecting his back. Also, this team had never had shooters on the outside.
I think there is enough blame to go around for why this team sucked.
Well, how exactly did the team do
when Al was out with his injury? How well did the team perform when he was on the bench for rotation players.
And, despite the woeful Wolves teams, Al almost became an All Star but the team’s win-loss record precluded that.
I agree. If we’re going to talk about the 15 win team, who had the highest usage rate on the team? Al. Who played the second most minutes? Al, 20 total minutes fewer than Brewer.
Al’s last full, healthy season, they won 22 games, and Al was the runaway leader in minutes played and usage.
To be clear, we all know the supporting cast has been poor. But Al’s not an alpha dog, the Wolves have a long way to go to get the roster to compliment his game, some of their best younger players play Al’s position, and they don’t want to play Al’s style game. It’s evident the flexibility this move gives them, on top of creating minutes for a couple of their more promising guys, is more valuable to them than Al. Just like Al’s more valuable to the Jazz than the vacuum left from Boozer.
Proof will be in the pudding, of course. If Kahn now nickle and dimes away their newfound new flexibility, or spends it foolishly, then that’s not good. But I’m not concerned the Wolves are going to rue the day they traded Al. He’s a solid but limited player. Very hard worker, and always seemed to do what the Wolves asked of him. I wish him well and am glad he’s going to a good team.
by jianfu on Jul 13, 2010 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree
Al doesn’t fit here anymore, plain and simple. I can’t say I was ever a big fan of Al’s, but Im glad he’s going to a good situation, and he should do well. btw Anybody see Wes almost decapitate himself finishing an alley oop today? I had no idea he could get up there like that
by AmRadTheory on Jul 13, 2010 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Garnett didn’t make the playoffs his last two years with the kind of dreck assembled here and he’s a likely Hall-of-Famer. These passes out of the post we’d have loved to see—who would have caught them who had a reasonable chance of making a basket?
Sure, Big Al is not immune from blame, but he’s the closest thing to a star the Wolves have had. In this off-season once filled with possibility, they’ve brought in no one closer.
by Neumms on Jul 13, 2010 12:24 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't get behind that
Sorry but this team did not make an honest attempt to be a playoff contender last year, last season was a tank, weather you wanna admit it or not, You can’t blame Al when he and love were the only 2 starters on the roster.
Agree but
Different view from an Al fan and McHale not
by PoohRichardson on Jul 13, 2010 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions
the only point of contention to me
is that McHale is talking about the quality of a contract he signed Al to like he was some impartial third party instead of the guy that signed him. Just seems a little dishonest from the limited quotes listed in this thread.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 13, 2010 7:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Happy for Al Jefferson
He moves from a perennial 15- to 20-win team to one that competes for the playoffs.
It is only after he is surrounded by a great point guard and other good pieces that Al will be able to demonstrate his worth. That and playing beyond the 2-year recovery from his injury.
Al is moving to a more established system, best one he’s been on throughout his career. He will have the best point guard he has ever played with.
So you are admitting...
That he could never truly build up his value in Minnesota, at least not without a roster overhaul around him.
by PhoenixWolf on Jul 13, 2010 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think I am "admitting" anything
I’ve contended all along that all the indivdual stats (ppp usage, etc.) is like seeing the world through a sipping straw. That individual stats fail to account for the performance of the team around you.
Anyone you place on a 15-win team is going to have his performance impacted by the woeful performance of those you team with.
Hence, any move for Al that gets him away from a 15-win team to one that contends for the playoffs is good for him.
As for the Wolves, I’m not convinced as of yet that we will exceed 25-wins this year despite all the chips (cap space, draft choices) that we have exhausted this year.
So what should we have done with Al?
You just said we should have held on to him to increase his trade value, then followed that up by saying that if he stayed here he would have a tough time increasing his trade value.
by PhoenixWolf on Jul 13, 2010 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions
Ahhh
The distinction is his injury. I look at the horrid injury Amar’e had a few years back. If you recall, Amar’e came back the following year but at about half the capacity of his pre-injury form. He had trouble with his quickness of lateral movement, his vertical was challenged, etc.
After the completion of two-years, Amar’e was his pre-injury self. Since that time, Amar’e value has only soared.
So, while our beloved Wolves remain woeful, I was only referring to the difference in performance when coming off the second year of a 2-year injury.
Thanks for asking for clarification.
I think you're right on this point
But you have to measure the value of what is likely to be gained in a trade of Al at the trade deadline (or before) against the damage you do to the players who are not getting PT while Al builds up his trade value.
Right now there is a motivated market for Al. At the trade deadline, the market could be even stronger – or nonexistent. This, along with Al’s possible resurgence would define his value at that point. But there is also an appreciable harm done to the rest of your team, both from a development standpoint, and also possibly from a roster management standpoint (what if a great deal comes along but we haven’t moved Al yet so we can’t take advantage?). I’m just saying there are a lot of factors at play here.
I tend to believe it makes sense to move him now, all things considered. But I can see how a reasonable person woudl disagree.
by stuntmonkeys on Jul 13, 2010 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
if no one gets hurt they will win 30 games or more
last yeadr Kevin was hurt and al was comming off injury,
this year the west is weaker
I can't say I'm excited
but I must withhold judgement until we see what we’re actually getting back. I’m sorry to see Al go like this. And I suspect that Al will play well with the Jazz – they won’t instantly turn into a 15 win team because of Al’s presence, as it seems some on this board believe. Perhaps playing with Deron Williams instead of Randy Foye or Jonny Flynn will make a bit of a difference?
Right
The transaction isn’t completed until all the pieces, including the outcome of the TPE, have been accounted for.
I predict this will be a breakout season for Al, one where he resumes his increase in points and rebounds per game that he had prior to his 2-year knee injury.
Look what happened with Amar’e after he finally came off his 2-year injury.
Al will flourish
with the Jazz when compared to the Wolves. However, even if he does and we get nothing but cap space from the TPE I would contend that the Wolves still come out better than they would if they held on to Jefferson until the trade deadline. The system we’re playing does not play to his strengths. I think we’re better off getting more playing time for the rest of our front court players than rehabbing Jefferson’s trade value. If we’re going to be trading Al at one point or another, then why not get the kind of flexibility that allows us to make more moves at the trade deadline and gives us an extended evaluation period for the new pieces we already have to determine if they should stay? Championship teams are built of cohesion and chemistry between the players to an extent that is second only to talent. Boston won a championship that first year with Garnett largely because of his ability to unify that group of players as a team. Ubuntu.
Flagrant- Andy G will back you
He must have a job that requires him to get up at a reasonable hour.
I actually think Al will do quite well in Utah. I’m also not that confident the Wolves will use the TPE. I think they just might save money. The Wolves should be able to eventually use the Cap Space to acquire assests that help build the team up.
Wait and see, I guess.
The Wolves have been involved in deals and draft picks that I have loved, hated, liked an disliked. This one will take some time to play out. Some unknowns (aside from the unknown of whether this deal is final and complete):
- Whether Jefferson regains his pre-injury form, possessing the best low-post moves in the NBA, and mediocre – rather than very poor – defensive abilities;
- Whether the Wolves properly take advantage of the salary cap flexibility that this deal should provide;
- Whether Jefferson would have been able to play his way into higher trade value, in the early part of next season;
- Whether Jefferson’s prime is mostly over, or just beginning — he is 25-years old — 4.5 years younger than Pau Gasol, for a relevant comparison; and
- Whether Kevin Love, Michael Beasley, Nikola Pekovic, or Darko Milicic can reach a point where they command a double team on the low block.
I’m glad that Jefferson is going to play with a good team and a great guard. If nothing else, I’m curious to see if my suspicions were correct that he is underrated by many Wolves fans and was handicapped here by the inept backcourt play. If I was right and others were wrong, I’ll make sure to point it out every now and then next year, when Jefferson’s battling with Pau in the 2nd Round of the playoffs, and K-Love is doing courtside interviews with Kurt Rambis at the game, discussing whether our lottery luck will change once and for all and we can win the Harrison Barnes Sweepstakes, next week.
If I was wrong, well… I’ll try to think up some more excuses for the guy. The early prediction involves Gordon Hayward.
what did you want to get for Jefferson
I think this is a good trade
you are right about double teams
I dont think kevin love will ever draw double teams
What did drawing a double team on Jefferson
ever do for the Wolves?
if he had wes or webster
those dudes would have easy shots all day
Oh so the problem was that he passed out of the double
and our bad wings missed the shots. Or he calculated that his poor chances of making a shot against the double team was still higher than the potential for another player to hit a wide open shot. He was just waiting for more wing talent to learn to pass out of the double.
Just The Facts Please
I had to create this account just to point out how ironic it is that so much can be written and said using one’s opinion which is very loosely based on fact.
I don’t want to attack the integrity of the entire article at all and don’t care enough to point out a single point because some even state for themselves when it’s opinion based. I also say it referring to columnist everywhere as well even though I hesitate in saying that because I like to offend as many idiots a day as I possibly can.
Back to the original point though; it is much easier when facts are proffered in these articles and the opinions are left to those who post about those facts. Now if it’s done for monetary reason’s then surely I can understand but when columnist offer their opinion and try to support them with facts or just flat out give their opinion as if it is fact well—- as the KFAN opening spot says, the end result of such a lopsided analysis is too obvious to elaborate.
But for the purpose of contention and a good measure of pissin people off, lets elaborate: The end result is a bunch of “Rubes” or functioning retards who are fueled to go out into the world and repeat there emotionally charged BS.
One, I repeat ONE way to ensure you are dealing with a fact is triangulation. That way when you read something or your watching ESPN and you hear, “Unconfirmed sources have confirmed, based on pure speculation…”, you can know right away without hesitation that what your reading, being told or even led to believe is pure BS.
This isn’t for everyone and only a few have read the whole thing in it’s entirety. But if you so choose to be offended, then be offended. Be very offended. Dumb asses offend me almost everyday so I have a lot to dish out. Just don’t expect a response with some quick quip or flamboyantly clever retort because I firmly believe that you cannot be properly addressed via keyboard, monitor and couple of clicks.
by One Man Faction on Jul 13, 2010 12:27 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Confused
Did anyone understand what this comment was about at all? There was reference to distinguishing opinion from fact but no indication as to what opinions or facts need to be separated, why, or why such an alleged failure to do so by an unnamed writer provoked this comment. Confusing stuff for a simpleton such as myself.
The world is made for people who aren't cursed with self-awareness
by Victor Mature on Jul 13, 2010 8:45 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Think you might also be
confused about who the simpleton is in this discussion.
But he used such smart-sounding words!
:)
by stuntmonkeys on Jul 13, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Generalization
To try and answer your question I wrote it with the intent of generalization. I do this as a deflector because just as much as I may point the finger, I also like to recognize my own faults. But especially without being insulted.
I was provoked over a period of time and from multiple media and blog cites to include print and television specifically. Probably because in the persuit of wanting to know what is going on with the great T-Wolves we have all been exposed to some straight BS.
I firmly believe (not a fact?) all facts and opinions should be separated or at least acknowledged when dealt with in public.
My name is Tristan James Ekisola. Pretty unique ha? Don’t like the Tristan part thought. Very fem if you ask me and I am not a female, lol. I would give my address out on here plain as day see I don’t exactly live alone and I am responsible to other people. My telephone number is 612 715 9318. If it helps, I am moving fairly soon and any one I offend can call me for that address. But do it quick because I will be leaving the country for some business very soon as well.
Smart sounding words… LOL!
A happy contributor…
by One Man Faction on Jul 13, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Blocked Numbers
For those of you inclined to call, please don’t call via blocked numbers or “unknown”. That would be um… well please just don’t do it that way. Another hint, your work number would be stupid, lol.
by One Man Faction on Jul 13, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
SBNations is just a collection of blogs
It’s not trying to be ESPN. Most of the front page writers get paid little to nothing. I know because I’m one of the front page writters at Ninersnation and I have yet to receive one cent. Since it’s a blog a lot of what’s written is speculation and rumor. Fans love to debate what may or may not happen and how it might effect their team. Nothing wrong with talking about the most popular rumors that are out their. If that’s not your thing, go somewhere else. That’s what makes the internet so great. There are places for everyone. Even those that just want to look at pictures.
Don't trust this guy. He lies.
I See
Thank you. This must be an element that I’m lacking in order to understand it. I certainly understand the difference between blog cites and “real media”. I guess the concept of public is changing as well. I guess I’m just a 28 year young, old fart. I might have to adapt or vacate. Before I do the latter, I’m going to stick around and see what else I can learn.
by One Man Faction on Jul 13, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Al will kick ass with Utah.
He could put up 25 and 12 easy. It’s gonna be Malone/Stockton style pick and roll with him and Deron. We should be getting a higher pick for him, but they shopped his value away.
Maybe he'll change, but Al doesn't play the PnR
He sits in the block. He doesn’t cut, he doesn’t typically look to catch the ball on the move. He’s a back to the basket guy.
Good stuff...
I cant keep up with you guys…Al for [TPE/capspace + MEM protected 1st rounder] + [what is the more assets reference?]
more assets? = filler, nobody, or something?
by PoohRichardson on Jul 13, 2010 12:50 AM CDT reply actions
Nooooooooo!
We in Portland don’t actually WANT Matthews. We just want the Jazz to pay him a lot of money.
Oh, well. If we play that game, we’ll get burned sometime.
In Bayless I trust.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
I'm
Not happy about this, I think we could’ve got alot more for Al once he proved he was back to his old self.
Now everything else
That has been put together needs to pan out, Darko and Webster suck, hopefully they won’t get much time. Flynn is gonna have to become a real PG next year, hopefully we can win more than 20 games.
So please for Al
Some diminish Al’s value but not the folks in Utah:
“It feels like Jazz made their version of the Gasol trade. Gasol was owed $49M for three years; Jefferson’s owed $42M for three years.”
“Always thought Kirilenko’s expiring contract would lead to franchise-changing move, but it was Boozer trade exception.”
NBA beat writer in Utah
How's that make sense?
Do even Al’s biggest supporters say he’s better than Boozer, much less enough of an upgrade over him to call it a ‘franchise-changing move’?
I was wondering when the Gasol trade would come up...
because that is what all this argument over Al’s “value” reminds me of. Pau was on the trade block for a long time before Wallace traded him for Kwame, Javaris, and Marc. As soon as the deal went down everyone complained that it was uneven, but Wallace claimed that there were no better offers even though he had been on the block since the prior season. Yeah, he didn’t wait till the deadline and everyone, particularly the Spurs, cried foul, but did they even have a better offer to make given their particular roster and cap situation?
I think the problem with trading Al was not Al’s “value”, or even Kahn’s strategy, it was the market for Al, which never developed in a way that provided many opportunities to swap Al for equal value. A lot of the teams that needed a player like Al had absolutely no attractive pieces that they could reasonably propose sending to Minn in exchange for Al because the team had been stripped down to only a few core players in order to pursue the big FAs. Other teams like Detroit and Sac were able to fill their needs in the draft. And other teams just didn’t have the pieces or the cap room or couldn’t move other contracts out of the way to make room for Al.
Maybe most of all, there were a lot more quality PFs available both in the league and in FA than quality SGs or true Cs which were Minn’s biggest needs. For example, Al posted a PER of 19.03 last year, which is well below his pre-injury numbers, but which would still rank him:
10th among PFs, just ahead of Carl Landry (11) and David West,(12), and just behind Josh Smith (7), Kevin Love (8), and KG (9). OR
11th among Cs, just ahed of Nene (12) and Joakin Noah (13), and just behind Brook Lopez (7), Nazr Mohammed-WTF (8), Al Horford (9), and Marc Gasol (10).
Compare that to the current SG crop in the league where the follwoing players ranked 6-12 in PER, ALL below Al’s injury depressed low of 19.03: Beaubois (6), Crawford (7), Iggy (8), Marcus Thornton (9), Vince Carter (10) with a PER of 17.11 btw, Kevin Martin (11), and Monta Ellis (12). Aside from Iggy, that’s a pretty weak group of players who were arguably in Al’s “value” range and several aren’t even really true SGs. Bottom line, there just weren’t many opportunities to make a deal that worked in terms of value.
I guess the point I’m trying to make here is that while I understand and generally agree with the concept that “something is only as valuable as what you can actually sell it for”, I also think that the NBA is an imperfect market and therefore even if Al gets traded for nothing more than capspace and a future pick, I don’t necessarily think that reflects his true value as a player or even in the minds of the other 29 GMs, any more than Kwame, Javaris and Marc really represented Pau’s value either as a player or in the mind of the other 29 GMs. Who knows, maybe the Spurs thought Pau’s value was cap relief and the #1 pick in the 2009 draft, unfortunately, they didn’t possess those things to offer to Chris Wallace so they didn’t get Pau. Similalry, maybe the Lakers and Mitch Kupchak think Al is worth Evan Turner; unfortunately they don’t have Turner, or any other piece that makes sense for Al, or even a need for Al, so they won’t be making that deal, but their inaction does not reflect anything on Al’s value beyond the conclusion that he’s not worth Kobe, Pau or Bynum.
Anyway, I hope this trade ends up resembling the Gasol trade in a couple other aspects as well: Al flourishes on the Jazz just as Pau did on the Lakers; and Minnesota’s eventual haul ends up looking pretty good a couple years from now just like Mem’s did with Marc Gasol.
by GregSandpaper on Jul 13, 2010 4:33 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Excellent observation
And writing, altogether in one post!
My only follow-up question would be an analysis of the impact on the wolves from a player development and roster flexibility standpoint if they don’t trade Al now?
I suppose we’ll never know how much more we could get for Al during the window in which it works for the Wolves to trade him. Or what the parameters of that window really are.
by stuntmonkeys on Jul 13, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions
Thanks. Unfortunately, I can't add much on your follow-up question.
Clearly, the development of Darko, Pekovic, Love and Beasley will be accelerated by the extra 35 mpg of playing time Al’s departure will provide and the Wolves will have a lot more flexibility without Al’s contract on the books, but, as you say, we’ll never know what more we could have gotten for Al.
by GregSandpaper on Jul 13, 2010 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Celts fan checking in...
One thing i feel is being ignored: how much will BigAl improve under Sloan’s tutelage? It seems to me the PnR, defensive rotations, etc, are largely items that can be coached (not saying it’s easy, but it can be done; see Perkins, Kendrick). Great post up moves, not so much.
Loving this thread :)
You'd think offensively he will be better suited
but those defensive issues are still going to be there in Utah.
I think this is the first time in history one man managed to destroy an entire city by himself. Even the Enola Gay had a flight crew.
Al's expensive, but Flynn costs the most
The poor passing frustrated me most watching the Wolves last year. Nearly everyone was guilty on most nights, but one would expect a PG to pass the ball better than a post-up player. Setting up a few more plays and hitting an outside jumper on a kick-out would have helped Al and the Wolves. Better passing can be coached, but it didn’t seem to be. If we’re trying to become a better team, I’d trade Flynn first for a PG who can set up his teammates. His trade value and upside is lower than Al’s in my opinion.
Crazy idea, but how about adapting our offense around our best players (three PFs, a SF and SG) next season to groom them and weed out a PF we don’t want? We keep Al and our other PFs, find a real PG, adapt our offense to best suit Al’s (and our other PFs’) needs, provide him an opportunity to shine again and increase his trade value, and maybe we learn that he’s an All-star. I’d rather be facing a dilemma of wondering whether we trade an All-star, because his style doesn’t fit with Kahn’s vision and a Rubio-led offense than see the potential of our big men limited by a poor-passing PG, even if it means we save money and get a mid-first-round draft pick. Otherwise, we’re grooming a back-up PG for Rubio for an entire season at the detriment of our best players.
Too many PFs
That is crazy. We’d have too many PFs next year if we don’t trade at least one of these guys, and none is likely to make an All-star game splitting minutes in a rotation of four.
I’m with you, though, on finding a play-making PG, rather than one who thinks he’s Mr. Clutch and can’t pass.
So, trade Al and then decide to bench or trade Flynn this summer. Find an unselfish, veteran PG who will build up the likes of Johnson, Beasely, Love, and Milicic.
You do realize...
that the Wolves are probably just going to sit on the cap space and take the savings, right? It’s best to prepare for the idea that Wolves are just doing these moves with at least one eye on the bottom line. It’s best to prepare for the Wolves not picking up any wing players during the next year.
maybe, but so what?
Big thing is we don’t have to pay Jefferson for the next three years to make our team worse.
Awesome deal…didn’t have to take back a bad contract and may get some picks to boot! Seriously, this is best case scenario stuff.
Well
Everyoneon the board tends to get excited when an opportunity like this comes along (see Collins, Jason). It’s viewed as an opportunity to make a big move, and people act like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football that Lucy’s holding. And while I hope they do turn it into something, I hope we’ve all learned from Cousins v. Johnson to prepare for disappointment.
turning that TPE into something is gravy
A month ago our best option with Jefferson was taking back another ugly contract.
It may not feel like it, but this is a huge win. And I have no doubt that our young guys will benefit enormously from the additional minutes and touches this move will create.
Reread this thread
The main point (besides Flagrant’s claim that we could pull Kobe at the trade deadline if we keep Al) that keeps coming up on in this thread is that it’s a good move by the Wolves, PENDING USE OF THE TPE. I’m simply pointing out that odds are probably better than 50/50 that the Wolves don’t do anything with it, and people should temper their expectations accordingly.
some people just bitch to bitch
Another benefit of this move is removing the stain of McHale once and for all. Maybe we can put some of the negativity behind us now.
is it just Love and Brewer now
as holdovers from that era? I bet Love is the only one that gets kept.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 13, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions
This is about fan perception, not player performance
Check out the draft thread to see how many people were shocked, SHOCKED to see the Wolves take Johnson.
"Shocked"? Really?
I could see folks being upset with the Wes Johnson pick, but nobody should have been “shocked” by this. It seemed 95%-plus of the mock drafts had The Wolves taking Wes Johnson. So if you were really shocked by that pick, I think you were living under a rock.
BTW… I’m so bored with this DMC vs. Wes Johnson gripe.
Wait until a year from now
when the Wolves take Kemba Walker instead of Harrison Barnes, because “he fits better with our roster.”
David Kahn: Kemba Walker sounds so much like Skywalker
and if there’s anything we need, it’s the force.
by littleboxes on Jul 13, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
how about a little fan perspective
Unless your team wins the championship, every season end with some measure of disappointment. Welcome to being a sports fan.
There's a difference
between disappointment and being angry they didn’t reup Jason Collins expiring contract for use the next season.
So Jefferson for a mid first round pick or maybe two...
is a good deal for us? Realisticly, doesn’t that keep us under the cap for a very long period of time??? Is this an all out move for Melo or some other star in the next two years?
Honestly, who is not being paid like a rookie on the team? R=rookie contract S=Sessions-type contract around 4-5 mil
Flynn /Rubio / Sessions
Webster /Brewer
Johnson /Hayward
Love /BEasy
Darko /Pekovic /Hollins
We suddenly have money for YEARS if we don’t resign Brewer for $10 mil a season for his defensive awareness.
I am fine with not overspending on a FA
provided they actually use the cap space wisely to collect assets like overseas prospects, decent draft picks and promising current prospects until they find a mix of talent they are really comfortable with.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 13, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Not to mention that
If any of these guys we keep talking about “busting out” do, in fact, bust out. They’re going to get a lot more expensive.
by stuntmonkeys on Jul 13, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm happy with the returning pieces
Mainly because I’m a believer in Beasley and thus Al was unnecessary on this roster. More space to work with, plus mid and late 1sts for a guy who basically didn’t appear to have much of a market? Whatever. Al wasn’t doing much for the Timberwolves anyway – neither from an entertainment standpoint (outside of those few nights where he was money), nor from a “building a winner” standpoint as he’s difficult to build a team around with this style.
I’m on board the Beasley train. I hope Rambis and the rest of the coaching staff is up to the task to get him to realize his potential.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
Cognitive dissonance
“Al Jefferson’s time with the Wolves was largely like Al Jefferson’s time with the Celtics, only with a higher usage rate. He is a wonderful low post scoring threat and that’s about it. He’s not worth his large contract and that high dollar amount makes him a very prohibitive trade prospect when fishing for young wing talent.”
“If this trade goes down, the Wolves will face an immediate PR hit simply for the fact that they have moved the main piece of the KG trade for what will initially be considered as nothing more than a salary dump.”
So, he’s hard to trade but we should get a lot in return for him? Al is a neutral or possibly negative asset. They got a mid 1st round pick for that and save $13M which will make a big difference offsetting the empty seats next season.
No..
….he’s still an asset and they should be dinged if they cannot use the remains of the TPE to sign a good player. You forgot the 2nd part of my argument: it hinges on the big “if”. If they just let the cap space expire, then they’ve wasted him.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
was he really an asset?
To use your housing analogy….he was a $200K house, with a $250K mortgage. Sure you could still live in the house, but from a monetary standpoint, it is a $25K liability.
That is why I think actually using the TPE is just gravy. I am surprised and happy that we didn’t have to take back a bad contract to move Al. Utah is overpaying out of desperation.
Also, using that TPE in an actual trade is somewhat irrelevant or at least not necessary…however we choose to allocate our salary cap over the next three seasons (assuming the Wolves spend the money) is the use….be it a big signing, a combination of smaller deals, a trade…etc. The benefit is freeing up the money, not so much the TPE.
er, $50K liability
should have used my calculator :)
I'm amazed...
…that they didn’t have to take any crap back in this deal. I think Utah made a grab for a guy that will not do what they think he will do and the Wolves got cap space and 2 picks for a guy they didn’t want back.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
exactly...
so, why the suggestion that this deal is a failure if we don’t use that TPE. I think it is a smashing success no matter what.
I think..
…an asset is an asset no matter what and I’d like to think that they can put the cap space to good enough use to counterbalance the cost that would have been associated with keeping Al. Ridnour + ? There has to be a good answer to the 2nd part of that equation. But yeah, I’m happy they got rid of him for this package. I just think they’d be leaving stuff on the table if they didn’t use the cap space well.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Peering into the crystal ball...
Assuming this trade goes through and the Wolves are left with a large TPE, which players do they target? Below is a list of players with salaries nearing the $13mil TPE and fall into the “athletic wing” category (note: this is simply a fact finding exercise to gather a list of players who meet the above two qualifications, not necessarily advocating that the Wolves go after all these guys OR that they could even attain them):
- Josh Smith, SF/PF, 6’-9", Hawks, (remaining salary: $11.6m, 12.4m, 13.2m)
- Gerald Wallace, SF, 6’-7", Bobcats ($9.9m, 10.7m, 11.4m)
- Luol Deng, SF, 6’-8", Bulls ($11.4m, 12.3m, 13.3m, 14.3m)
- Caron Butler, SF, 6’-7", Mavericks ($10.6m)
- Carmelo Anthony, SF, 6’-8", Nuggets ($17.1m, 18.5m)
- Tayshaun Prince, SF, 6’-9", Pistons ($11.1m)
- Danny Granger, SF, 6’-8", Pacers ($11.0m, 12.0m, 13.0m, 14.0m)
- Lamar Odom, SF, 6’-10", Lakers ($8.2m, 8.9m, 8.2m)
- Andre Iguodala, SF, 6’-6", 76ers ($12.3m, 13.5m, 14.7m, 15.9m)
- Jason Richardson, SG, 6’-6", Suns ($14.4m)
- Brandon Roy, SG, 6’-6", Blazers ($13.5m, 14.9m, 16.3m, 17.8m, 19.1m)
- Manu Ginobili, SG, 6’-6", Spurs ($11.9m, 13.0m, 14.1m)
(Salary reference: hoopshype.com)
Hoopus preferences? Other players to add to the list?
Unlikely a "big" move like that is made this offseason
Other than moving Sessions and/or Brewer, it would seem that Kahn & Rambis have assembled pieces that fit the Wolves style, including some with potential to explode into that “go-to-guy”. I would expect them to see how these players mesh and develop for at least the first half of the season, and then evaluate whether to make additional changes at the trade deadline, in preparation for Rubio’s arrival.
Agreed - it won't be this off-season
I think we’ll role with giving our young pieces lots of playing time in the early-going and wouldn’t add anybody until near the trade deadline (if it happens at all).
I will add that...
Most teams who trade players into cap space/TPE don’t usually command a high return… So if The Wolves are able to land one of those players you listed, it probably won’t cost us much. I only like some of the players on that list, so hopefully Kahn doesn’t force the issue, but a lot of them would indeed be pretty cheap to acquire.
I'm Surprised...
at a fairly short list of true impact players that meet the qualifications of a wing player making somewhere between $10-15 million: Melo, Granger, Roy, and Manu. Based on the players above, my feeling is that we sit and wait on the TPE until next off-season (use it leading up to the draft?) and see what kind of players are already on this team.
a bad day for the franchise
If we more or less keep our current talent, get ready for an exciting 19-win season. We keep waiting for Kahn to make at least a semi-transcendent move; I honestly don’t know if he has it in him. The big picture—and it’s admitted by Kahn himself to be part of HIS big picture—is change the culture of the team within the community, to become more front-of-mind.
That is his admitted business goal, or at least one of them.
So if we’re dealing with “metrics” for one thing (basketball production) and not the other—how the hell is this supposed to help with that goal? Not much. In fact, it’s pretty much an unmitigated disaster. Yeah we can talk about TPE’s all we want and try to justify them…. 99.9% of people really don’t give a crap. We can contort ourselves into some financial justification of this (which I still don’t entirely buy), and yet, Occam’s razor, we’re getting rid of our best player for peanuts on the dollar.
Everything else is just obfuscation, and mere wonkiness instead of the reality, i.e. truth of the situation.
Wonkiness makes a nice cover story in the absence of basic common sense.
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 13, 2010 10:40 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
one final thought
I honestly don’t trust Kahn to use the TPE wisely down the road. That has to be a contributing factor to “grading” this. Just no trust. I’d rather have him try to get AK47 with this. Better a bird in the hand, etc. etc.
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 13, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Me neither
We’ve been waiting for the two birds in the bush for a while.
Here's some basic common sense...
If there are too many players looking for PT and/or touches, the team’s productivity suffers.
If a team gives a lot of minutes to players who don’t fit their preferred style of play, the team’s productivity suffers.
A good system is worth more in wins than any one fringe All-Star, and if a team can’t take advantage of such a player’s strengths with their style of play, it’s much more difficult to be competitive.
Despite his productivity, Al Jefferson has only been on 1 team that made the playoffs, which was during his rookie year.
This team just added 2 players younger than Jefferson who duplicate his strengths for less $: Beasley (volume scoring, rebounding) and Pekovic (post scoring), both of whom bring other strengths (outside shooting, drawing fouls) and one who is arguably as talented as Jefferson.
The TPE isn’t as important as the clearing of $42 million owed to Jefferson during the next 3 years that could also be used to sign other players or facilitate lopsided trades.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 13, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
"A good system"
Let me highlight one small part of your post: A good system.
If Rambis has a good plan and the tools to implement it (and if nothing else, that’s what the off-season should have accomplished) maybe the Wolves will be a nice surprise.
There aren’t examples of TPEs becoming difference-making players, but there are examples of teams coming out of essentially nowhere. Memphis under Hubie Brown, the Pistons under Carlisle when they rose from the dead, Doc Rivers’ first year in Orlando.
I refuse to look at dollar savings and see hope. But maybe there’s hope there anyway.
it's all very abstract at this point, these mythical "other players"
What’s lacking on this team is actual, well, talent. And Jefferson had two talents (low post and rebounding) which is still superior to anyone else on this team, except perhaps Love, in terms of a proven commodity.
We also have a bunch of players that would be marginal starters at best on other teams, and some scrubs. And Rubio. I’m convinced Rubio will come over, but we need a team this year that will show a bit of spark. I honestly don’t see that in this current roster.
Potentiality is fun but our saviors this year are Darko and Beasley, and forgive me if I’m a little wary of this “plan.” And for Kahn to garner any real valuable assets with all of this extra $.
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 13, 2010 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions
and also...
in the context of the Jefferson move, does the likely Ridnour signing inspire anyone with real confidence in this FO? It’s at best treading water. What is he going to get for Sessions besides spare parts and other people’s broken toys? Empiricism doesn’t just have to do with stats, and I don’t have any faith to trust these moves.
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 13, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
You overestimate Jefferson’s talent. Jefferson is a good offensive player and rebounder with no other above-average skills who received a lot of opportunities and was overpaid as a result. It’s not a stretch in any way to assume that if his 35 minutes are given in parts to Love/Beasley/Pekovic that those players can replace his productivity by maintaining a similar point differential (points created vs. points given up), more efficient scoring (higher FG% and more FTAs), and better passing in the halfcourt offense. Love and Beasley are both capable of being as productive as Jefferson, and it’s not out of the question that Pekovic will be a more-efficient post scorer who adds more to the other parts of the game than Jefferson did.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 13, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
The issue is that Wolves management adopted a style of play that didn’t suit its resources, thus minimizing the precious resources they have. Let’s say they didn’t have this grand notion of a running team.
Then their front court could be Cousins and Al. They could trade Love, whose salary slot might get the young wing we need. They could have traded Flynn for the 10th pick (George? Henry?) and let Sessions start, or maybe they’d have let Flynn try pick and rolls, which is what he’s made for. Maybe the 16th pick still becomes Webster, or maybe it’s Bledsoe the PG. They could still have gotten BEasy for the 2nd rounders.
They’d have options, a better team, and better prospects for a #1 go-to player.
Now, instead, they backed themselves into a corner. They’re trading their best asset for nothing. You’re probably right, that’s their best option. But they shouldn’t be in this situation.
I agree
What is most puzzling is their slavery to a particular style of play, one that fit virtually none of their current roster. We threw out our franchise player (KG), acquiring player after player that we soon decide don’t fit our ‘master plan’. That’s our 15-win master plan. Can anyone make a list of the number/names of players that have passed through Minnesota since Garnett left? I bet it would make your head spin.
by ogishkemuncie on Jul 13, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
There have been a lot...
36 in total. But how many of them have been better away from here than here? I can’t think of a good example.
I don’t have a problem with them going to a specific system because it shows they have a plan. Not only that, but it helps with personnel decisions because after the lottery picks and the All-Stars, personnel moves have to account for how to pick the appropriate players who will thrive in that system and how to decide which players should get paid and which ones should be let go. Otherwise, the assumption is that guys like Foye, Gomes, even Jefferson are essential to future success when they might not be. The Flip-era Wolves proved that only 2 things were essential to the team being a playoff team: KG and Flip’s system. These Wolves don’t have KG, but if they have a system, it can help them weed out who is and isn’t necessary to their success.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 13, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
exactly...
it’s like the choose your own adventure books…just because we’re on the second-to-last choice before a crappy ending doesn’t mean that it had to be this way. Unfortunately, there’s no starting over…
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 13, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually,
the real problem was hanging on to McHale as our GM for too long. By the time they brought Kahn in (which seems like a pretty big mistake unto itself) it was too late. After arriving, Kahn made the mistake of focusing on the draft before picking a head coach. In what should have been a draft that stocked the team with talent that fit the new coach’s system, they wound up drafting the BPA 4 times in the first round. Then to top it off we selected a coach that wants to run a system that de-emphasizes the value of every single one of those BPA that we had just drafted. Now this off-season has seen the team actually start to build a foundation for Rambis’ system. I’m not saying that his system will be great or horrible, I’ll wait for the results to come in on that, I’m saying that we’ve gone about this whole thing in a massively disjointed way. For what it’s worth, this NBA season should provide the answer to the question of depth (IMO the Wolves have a roster of 12 players in the B-C range) vs. star power (Miami has a roster of 3 A’s, 2 C’s, and presumably 7 players in the D-F range)
On my way into work this AM
I was thinking that maybe the time for a Jefferson type player has passed and the wolves will wind up with nothing in three years, because Al is a brontosarus and the league is full of road runners. Then I get on here and hear that somebody is willing to trade for Al is a relief to me. Yes, he doesn’t fit into the Wolves long-term plans. I would think it would be obvious that the long-term plan is based around a currenlty 19 year old kid playing in the second toughest league in the world. Will this really work? True Wolves fans certainly hope so, otherwise we are doomed to be the Clippers of the Midwest.
I am not totally sold on the trade, but based on what has been transpiring in the league, this is our best current option. Take the sure thing deal now, while it’s a generous amount, before you get “Zonked” and wind up with a broken basketball team that has no cohesive parts.
To the person who says they will put Jefferson @ Center, what are you going to do with Okur? I think you need him out there to help take some of the pressure off Jefferson, especially since you lost Korver.
Good Luck Al.
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
I'm not sure that Al is a dinosaur
But I do think that for the kind of player he is he’s just not quite good enough. Many fans bemoan the loss of the 23 ppg psuedo all star version of Al, but he was never going to exist on the Wolves again, or on any balanced, successful team. That version of Al took 20 shots a game for those points, and the offense of the Wolves was never going to run through him again to that extent (nor should it). Al’s lower production last year had more to do with changes to the offense than his knee. Utah’s offense will not run through him either, but he may learn to integrate more. Perhaps he does embrace the PnR, a job he left to Love and the others last season. Maybe as a first step he stops setting the most half hearted screens and commits to something other than setting up in the left block.
The shots are going to the wings next year, the ball is, hopefully, moving around more. There is no 23 ppg Jefferson in that scenario.
At least they have a plan right now
Before it was just adding players and hoping they would work out. Now, Kahn and Rambis are looking for specifc players that fit a specific style of play. Maybe this plan will fail, but at least they hava a strategy in place that they feel will build this team into a winner (which can be difficult to do unless you luck out in the lottery).
For the first time in several years – I see a specific direction this team is headed and I am excited about it.
TPE
Help out an uninformed fella…
What the heck is TPE?
the trade exception. I can’t remember what the P stands for.
Dave
by Dave Mulvihill on Jul 13, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Traded Player Exception
If you want a full definition/understanding, it’s available for the low low price of one soul.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
Yahoo reports a finalized deal (to be completed sometime today)
Posted over in the daily updates thread, but thought we should have it in this one too.
From Marc Spears at Yahoo:
Memphis’ protected pick, another future #1, and cap space.
I’m happy with that. Some won’t be.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
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