AP Sources: #Jazz get big man Al Jefferson from #Timberwolves for 2 1st-round picks and trade exception from Boozer deal.
Jon confirms it on his Twitter account. Consider this an open thread on the subject. More to follow.
almost 2 years ago
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i like freeing us of Jefferson's deal
one more year Brett Favre!
I feel good about it...
We get rid of a contract and Al gets a nice home in Utah and still gets paid. Everybody
should be happy.
Works for me.
You can’t say Kahn/Rambis/Operations have been idle. They’ve made a lot of moves, and I
think, a little for the better. This team looks a lot quicker. Lazar sure looks like he
can drain it.
"You don't have the talent, but you can work harder than everyone else."
by WillistonCoyote on Jul 13, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions
It's a money saver
It may lead to future flexibility by keeping us some distance from the salary cap, but more realistically it saves a boatload of money for Glen Taylor. Even if surprisingly successful, there’s no way Al’s contract doesn’t dwarf increased ticket sales or merchandise. It makes sense to act like Donald Sterling if your team isn’t winning, but this was pretty much the definition of selling low, even if he managed to avoid the debacle that was the dallas deal
On the surface
I like it. A lot.
But it looks like the Utah pick is coming with lots of “protection”. And Kahn is going to sign Ridnour and dump Sessions (who will fetch hardly anything – even though I think Sessions is as good a Ridnour)
So the sum of the deal will be Jefferson for 1 highly protected 1st round pick from Utah, the Memphis pick (not sure what the protections are on that), Ridnour, and ~$7M cap space.
I don’t follow your math on the remaining cap space, and I haven’t seen anything about the Utah pick being protected. The Memphis pick is what is heavily protected.
And the 2012 Utah pick will come at the perfect time, as we hand ours over to Clips.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
I'd be surprised if Utah's pick wasn't protected
I can’t remember the last time a 1st round pick was traded and it didn’t have restrictions. But if Utah makes the playoffs, and I don’t see why they won’t, the pick will be in the second half of the first round. As for the Memphis pick, it’s top 14 protected year 1, top 12 year 2, top 10 year 3, top 9 year 4, and top 9 year 5. After that it goes to cash.
Don't trust this guy. He lies.
Always the danger with Kahn:
“Here David, have some more bullets for your gun.”
My satisfaction with the trade of Al will likely be more than offset by giving away Sessions (ten months after signing him) to pay the same amount of money to an aging point guard after we just spent the 6th pick on a point guard.
It is a veteran presence for our team
And that isn’t just a euphemism. We need someone who has been around and can help all the damn young kids we have on our team. As much as I do like Session, he isn’t going to be a leader like Ridnour is.
Webster was acquired for this reason aswell
I like this move…we need people with NBA exp
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 13, 2010 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
I call Kahn (as of now) the Clint Dempsey of the NBA: Works very hard to get opportunities; then sends it wide of the yawning net.
Might be closer to the Robbie Findley of the NBA
Scurries around in a hurry, moves faster than anyone else, but for little discernible accomplishment.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Jul 13, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't confuse activity for achievement!
by ogishkemuncie on Jul 13, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
If they are able to use the cap space...
…for someone like Iggy or Josh Smith (just as an example) + Ridnour, this essentially becomes Al and 2 2nd rounders for Beasley, Iggy/Smith, Ridnour, and 2 1sts. Granted, they’d need a bit on the free agent deal to make the salaries match, but this is essentially part of a non-simultaneous trade for the Wolves. He needs to make the back half happen, but this is far and away the most value they can get from Jefferson’s bloated contract. It has always been the best route.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Ehhh
not really.
If we trade the exception for Iggy or Josh Smith, I’m about 90% positive that it would be just for the TPE. Too many other teams who would offer their TPE plus something to beat that offer out. So we’ll have to wait to see what else we are sending out before saying it might net us a player by itself. It won’t.
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Just an example
To show what I think their thought process is.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Fair enough
also in my OP I meant “90% positive that it wouldn’t be”
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
wooooahhhhh!
that’s only in international play. we fans of his club team know better:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeL1DXp-PuU
;)
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Classic goal
Who is going to get the managing gig at Fullham?
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Jul 13, 2010 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
No clue..
…but Bob Bradley has been rumored.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Supposedly...
…AC Milan is interested in Dempsy.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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Don't think that would end well for him
though the money would be good.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Jul 13, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Bradley would be great...
to keep the American connection going.
I’ve also seen a Dempsey to Liverpool rumor. I think either one might be a mistake for him, because I’m not sure he’d be a regular starter on a team much better than Fulham.
Yeah, I don't think that's real
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Jul 13, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Look for Ramon Sessions to The Pacers next...
Maybe we can extract another future 1st-rounder or Paul George from Indiana if we agree to take on one of their bad expiring contracts (TJ Ford)?
Wouldn’t this be a better option than giving a 4-year deal to Ridnour? Play TJ Ford as a back-up PG for one year before his contract expires.
Oh man
what I wouldn’t give for Paul George. Maybe we could send them Brewer and Sessions for George. Yee-haw!
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
I don't think we can pry George away, unless...
… we take on one of the their big expiring contracts. They seem more intent on dumping TJ Ford than Troy Murphy, Mike Dunleavy or Jeff Foster…
They wont give George away for anything other than the best of the NBA
Sessions is not
I'LL BITCH SLAP YOU WITH ROBERT SWIFT!!!
by My Name is Bryce on Jul 13, 2010 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Could be, but...
1. They need a starter-quality PG and some folks think he’s good enough to be a nice starting PG…
2. They are VERY intent to dump TJ Ford’s contract.
That swap would also save them about $7M in cash. I’m not saying it would be a no-brainer for The Pacers, but don’t underestimate the importance of cash and how badly they want to move Ford…
George is very good raw talent
Once he acclimates to the NBA, he and Wes Johnson are alike and will kill.
That's kind of a creepy image
You say that you know a lot about Al. Are you a part of his entourage? If so will you be following him out to SLC? I’m pretty sure they have drive-through liquor stores, IIRC.
Brandon Rush?
They have Granger/George on the wing now, so what do they need Rush for? He’s not great, but he’s a young wing who can shoot and has good defensive potential.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Wow, he's 25
Weird. Much older than I’d have thought after 2 years in the league.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
If we dump Sessions salary and then sign Ridnour for $4 Million, that doesn’t cost us $6 Million in cap space, unless we are forced to take on salary in a sessions trade.
Not sure I understand your $7M cap space figure.
Don't expect Ridnour to sign for $4M
it is going to take more as he has competing offers.
I was just estimating based on needing to over pay Ridnour closer to $5M
That is the reported offer
but you will notice he has not signed.
There is a reason for that. Maybe the same reason why Gay visited – to drive up his value to a different team.
Well lets put a few buck on it
Because Gay was never offered anything, just trying to make Memphis act quick. Ridnour is out and about, actually looking for deals. 4/16 is my bet.
Frankly
I really hope you are right. I would hate to over pay Ridnour.
Yeah, they did okay (clearly Dallas thinks Kahn is indeed an “easy mark” with their offer), and sounds like they held their ground on the picks. But those picks might ultimately amount to nothing substantial. I think this trade is mostly about creating PT for Love and Beasley, gaining flexibility, and moving their highest-paid player who happens to not fit their goal M.O.
I’m alright with it. Although I can certainly understand why people wouldn’t be.
It’d have been nice to realize more value from Big Al, you know, since he’s a double-double machine and only 25, but, I guess that just wasn’t going to be possible given our obvious need to trade him.
Good trade for the Jazz, though. They just replaced Boozer at half the price.
For better or worse, the Wolves are now completely Kahn’s team.
15 wins wasn't Kahn's team....
The main pieces were overwhelmingly McHale’s….and at least we have ZERO bad contracts, ZERO aging players, AND we actually are acquiring 1st rd picks, rather than trading them for Jaric and losing them for Joe Frigging Smith.
Jefferson, Foye, Gomes, Brewer, Love….that whole team last year was McHale.
"at least we have ZERO bad contracts, ZERO aging players"
Luke Ridnour begs to differ.
As for the 1st rd picks, let’s just say that in Kahn’s hands, so far they have been as much liabilities as assets.
And I think a team of
Foye
Brewer
Gomes
Love
Jefferson
Would destroy a team of
Flynn
Webster
Johnson
Love
Darko
But we’ll see. If there’s one thing Kahn has proven he can do, it’s take a team down to nothing. The more difficult prospect lies in building it back up again.
We haven't signed Ridnour yet
As far as picks go, the idea of stockpiling picks and cap space is the opportunity that it provides for a trade (i.e. for Iggy later on this year, etc.).
Also, don’t forget that the first lineup above has a bench with Telfair, the scared-to-shoot version of Mike Miller, and Chris Richard/Mark Madsen, etc. while the bench of the second team has Michael Beasley, the same Corey Brewer, Sessions, Pekovic off the bench. Also, Rubio on the way. I’ll take it.
come on now...
that is a stretch…throw the reserves in the mix…this team is significantly more talented than the one McHale handed off.
I'm not sure on the talent
Lots of question marks. But what I do like about the roster is:
1. Young guys
2. Low salaries
3. Short contracts
Where we are really strongly positioned is not this year, or even next year. It’s the year after. Post CBA, we are going to be one of the few teams who can actually field a team for whatever the hard, lower cap number is going to be.
Hah
An interesting argument from the guy who constantly pointed out that Darko and Rubio weren’t on our team yet ;)
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Always keeping us guessing
Like David Kahn looking for good basketball players.
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Ah, the festering caldron
Is on overflow at the mention of Kevin McHale.
Look out below, she’s boiling over!
Let’s make sure people/press call him on the fact it’s his team. I did a lot of wink, wink last year about the team he inherited, to the extent I thought he got away a little too much last year about his culpability in the product.
That said, I do think he’s done okay this offseason. The draft and eating up a bunch of money immediately on Darko and Pek was disappointing, IMO, but picking up Beasley for nothing, filling the roster with some lengthy athletes on the wing, and regaining flexibility by moving Al make sense considering the team’s standing. After the dust has settled, it still appears we’re in a Rubio holding pattern and crossing out fingers for Derek Rose Blake Griffin John Wall Evan Turner, Harrison Barnes, which is disappointing. But Kahn himself will emphasize a lot of becoming a team that matters is dumb luck. And outside of moving up to #3 for Derrik Favors, there just didn’t appear to be any avenues towards a potential stud. But I think the team should be more entertaining this year.
Good Deal for the Jazz? Really?
Looks to me like they traded Ronnie Brewer, Carlos Boozer and a First round pick for Al Jefferson. Not a great outcome for them ultimately.
Wolves save money now and get 2 PTBDLs, to borrow baseball parlance. Not great, but potential to be good.
The world is made for people who aren't cursed with self-awareness
by Victor Mature on Jul 13, 2010 2:43 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Well
They were losing Boozer either way. Even though it looks like too much when you put it the way you did, they were smart to use their trade exception on something closely approximating Boozer instead of sitting there with cap space and nobody as good as Al left on the market. As a top playoff team with a disgruntled star, they didn’t have time to wait to use their space. They had to do something.
Seems about unanimous...
amongst the national writers that this was a win for Utah. It’s hard to disagree with that. The supporters of the trade on our end seem to think we were forced into it. There are strong resemblances to the Pau Gasol trade for cap space. We’ll see if Deron can bring out of Jefferson what Kobe brought out of Gasol.
Hollinger seems to see it as win/win
Thinks the acquisition helps Utah, and that a Jefferson/Boozer swap makes sense, but adds this about the Wolves:
For Minnesota, I can’t argue with the idea of trading Jefferson. There was no way he could coexist in the same frontcourt as Kevin Love, and I’m a huge Love fan. Additionally, wiping away Jefferson’s $13 million opens the door to substantial cap space — they’ll have it right away but may not choose to use it until next summer. Alternatively, they can adopt the Oklahoma City model and rent out their cap space in return for more assets. And, of course, two first-rounders never hurt.
Regardless, a frontcourt with Love, Michael Beasley, Nikola Pekovic and Darko Milicic will be a considerable improvement on last season’s unit, at both ends of the floor. The Wolves likely will spend another year in the basement, but one can at least see the kernels of a foundation taking shape.
The Wolves likely will spend another year in the basement, but one can at least see the kernels of a foundation taking shape.
This has not sunk in, yet. After a 3-15 start to the season, I’ll be looking for optimism all around this blog. I wonder if I’ll find as much of it then, as I do now.
I have been clear for almost 2 years
This year’s trade deadline is the point of no return. If they can turn the TPE into cap space in the off season, I’ll think about it for a bit longer, but we have always been looking at the final shoe being a salary grab from a team looking to dump something. That’s where the optimism is for me. It’s also where my patience ends if they can’t make it work.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
You've got to be patient
I think Presti is overrated, but he does understand the importance of patience. If you try to use all your assets and drop all your shoes at once, you’ll end up screwing something up, overpaying someone, not having done enough to build a contender. Going bit by bit ensures that you can keep reloading, keep acquiring young assets for as long as possible before quickly becoming a contender.
You are right that next offseason is the absolute end point. Love and Beasley will need contract extensions the year after that, so any cap space we try to hold onto would be absorbed by their pay raises.
Exactly
They’re running out of time but there’s no immediate rush to cash in on that cap space. They have ideally until the trade deadline…or…well, I’ll have to wait and see what they get in return for this deal. I’ve always suspected that they would make a deal that netted them a ton of space. I just don’t know when that space will expire.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I think we'll have roughly $9 million in space next year.
We couldn’t have acquired Beasley if the deal took us over the cap, which means that Jefferson for nothing would have turned Jefferson’s full 2010 salary, $13 million, into cap space.
So figure we’re $14 million under now, minus $2-3 million for our 1st round pick, minus $2-3 million for incremental raises to our existing players’ contracts. Brewer needs a new contract, but $4 million/year seems about right for him, so that’s a wash once he’s resigned and his QO cap hold disappears.
Is a $9 million/year, potentially-not-overpaid free agent better than a $13 million/year unwanted, likely overpaid player from another team? I think it might be. If it were up to me, I’d look to make an Eric Maynor type deal at the deadline. Take an expiring contract plus a pick or cheap young player at the deadline, then use the cap space again in the 2011 offseason.
Maybe
I honestly think this team will be a ‘surprise’ 25-30 win squad next year. Just too much of a talent upgrade, specifically defensively. Let me be clear – it’s not that Beasley or Wes or Webster or Pek will suddenly become stars or anything, it’s just that we’re giving Hollins’ minutes to Pek, and Stewie’s minutes to Holling, and Wilkins’ and Gomes’ minutes to Wes and Lazar, and Al’s minutes to Love, and Love’s minutes to Beasley…
OK, that didn’t format nearly as well as I thought it would. Point is offensively we’re no worse than last year, in fact we should be better as Wes, Lazar, Pekovic, and perhaps even Webster and Beasley are as good or better shooters than Wilkins, Gomes, Pavs, and Al. Defensively is where there’s a huge, huge upgrade, and at nearly every position. I did a thing earlier about this, but essentially a five point swing in point differential yields a 10-15 improvement in wins, and this team has a very realistic shot at such an improvement.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
I hope you are right
They are just sooooo young right now. If Rambis can squeeze 30 wins out of this squad, he deserves some Coach of the Year votes.
Talent upgrade
But lots of learning curve. If they’re not better at the end of the season than at the beginning something is wrong.
They'll need somebody to really step up.
I’m not sure who it will be… Beasley, Love or Darko would be best. Can one of those guys be an All-Star next year? That’s the sort of leap we’ll need to have a respectable start to the season.
If there isn’t a Kevin Durant in the picture, it’s hard to imagine a group of 21-24 year olds winning more than 1/3 of their games. I’m sure I’ll get as excited about the next big lottery catch, Barnes, as everyone else… but I hope this tank— rebuilding doesn’t scare off Ricky Rubio, and the remaining fans.
If the cap space can be used for a blockbuster trade, I’ll be happy. If it’s for Iguadala or something of that caliber, it’ll feel like slightly worse than a lateral move for Jefferson, at least if he regains old form.
The biggest issue I see
is that I still don’t see the proven, can create the shot on his own as the shot clock expires, wing player that the triangle has always required. I mean, the whole triangle offense is set up to generate weak side space for an attack at the hoop with shooters spaced. Who on our squad is going to attack the hoop, and do it well?
There is nothing in Johnson or Webster’s history that says they can do it. Not that they can’t score – that the can’t create for themselves. Beasley – possibly. But I am concerned about where he actually plays. Love, Brewer, Darko, Pek – not going to come from here. Flynn – just to small and would really have to improve his finishing. Ridnour is not the answer either. Unfortunately, neither is Rubio.
So while I certainly see upgrades in the personnel, I am still not so sure they fit the triangle. Because of that, I, too, see a 25-30 win season as the max for the year.
Did a national writer
Just give Kahn some props? I am absolutely shocked.
Maybe, but it's not illogical.
Jefferson’s deal averages out to $2 million/year cheaper, is 2 years shorter, and comes attached to a guy 3 years younger, roughly the same age as Deron Williams. His ability to play center works better with Millsap, since last year the Jazz used a lot of Millsap/Boozer frontcourts, and since Okur might not be 100% at the beginning of the season.
I don’t know, if the talent downgrade, fit upgrade from Boozer to Jefferson plus sacrificing a mediocre wing or two gets them under the luxury tax, I’d say they’ve done pretty well for themselves.
Executive of the Year!
Mr. David Khan!
Nice to be on the giving end of a bad deal for once.
by DougW on Jul 13, 2010 1:35 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
pawning that contract off without taking anything bad back is a huge achievement.
getting two 1st round picks to boot makes it a masterpiece.
Thrilled?
Realistically, Glen Taylor will pocket this money and we have two mid round draft picks. I have to agree with flagrant on this one. People are thrilled with the trade assuming the TPE will turn into a player. I am of the opinion that it won’t.
by midlife crisis on Jul 13, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t care if we use the TPE. I am just happy we aren’t taking back a Zach Randolph or Luol Deng or Elton Brand….because (and please don’t tell Utah)…that would have been a lot closer to fair value.
DougW found a bright side!
Give that man some hugs!
I like this deal too.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 13, 2010 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions
The cloud has lifted friend
The bottom is in
Things will get better
Although I probably won’t have much to contribute to Canis Hoopus anymore…I was a one issue voter.
I am new here this year...contribute what you want and hope you don't make some people mad...
…but do contribute. This site is great and does bring up some great topics.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 13, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions
So, save 1 or 2
of your “I told you sos” for when we lose 67 games again.
I understand that you really like Big Al (and seem to have some level of a personal relationship), but everyone here knows it. Let it be!
I, for one, plan on having my cake and eating it too. I’m happy for Al, and I really do hope he succeeds with Utah. I am also very happy that my favorite team has moved on, and in a very clean and resolute manner.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
Big Al fan's
Like myself are sad to see him go but I am going to take the same approach as I did to KG. If I am really a fan of theirs than getting them far away from this team is the best thing for them, ala KG and his ring and now I can root for the Jazz and Al proving the pundits wrong.
by TheMorningAfter on Jul 13, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Curious advice,
coming from a guy with several hundred comments over the last few days . . .
by PoorDick on Jul 13, 2010 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh, have I overstayed my welcome?
For the record, I’ve consistently contended wins-losses are final arbiter. Have you failed to take advantage of my wonderful zillions of comments? For shame! lol
Would McHale be getting us more wins now?
Yes…but he also wouldn’t be trying to implement a completely new style of play that 2 people on his current roster actually fit into.
We won 15 wins last season…that’s bad…but if we wanted 30 wins we could got over pay for some FA and be marginal team with first round sweeps.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 13, 2010 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Then when OKC was in the lottery
With Durant and lots of their team intact, then nothing good was happening.
You are right to not hang your hat on transactions, but you can be happy at how our team is taking shape and coming into place.
Ridnour is a combo guard so maybe Sessions stays
one more year Brett Favre!
Nope
He’s a point guard, through and through. Milwaukee has used both him and Sessions at SG in the past, but that’s out of necessity rather than them being combo guards. I doubt any coach would like to play either of those two players at SG; roster situations and talent levels force coaches to put squares into rectangle holes sometimes.
I like it
Talent for talent we come up short, although some good talent could be brought in the the exception, but more realistically it has greater value to us than the talents we lose or gain.
What is important is that we don’t have 5 guys that need to play, competing for only 96 minutes. Al Jeff is the player that we know what we are going to get, and doesn’t really fit our system.
Really, getting anything back in this trade, which helps open up our team and let the players who fit our team the best play, is successful. You just can’t grade this trade on the talent to talent ratio, even though I am sure many people are going to want to.
The worth of this transaction
Will not be known until all the chips are counted.
What Kahn gets with the TPE?
What Kahn gets from the picks?
Because they probably won't
We are a wing team now. Our primary scoring won’t be focused on coming from the inside like it was when we had Al. We just need skilled big men, not black hole scoring players.
Cart - Horse
You may have things assbackwards. Because thee was a lack of outside shooters, Al got double- and triple-teamed.
Indeed...
don’t underestimate WHY Al Jefferson was doubled and tripled… he was the only scoring threat, so wouldn’t you have doubled and tripled him if you were coaching against the recent versions of The Wolves?
That and you were fairly sure if he got his hand on it he would shoot it
Why not crash down on a guy that doesn’t like to share the rock?
by Breaking Ankles on Jul 13, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
He was double teamed because it was effective. He had absolutely no idea about hwo to find the open man. Even if the outside shooting was poor, the success rate of most of our players with wide open shots would have to be better than Al in traffic.
people get double teamed because the opponent
doesn’t respect you passing skills. If you were legit a help defender might show to cover and then recover back to his man. You don’t double complete players as if they can pass at all it should lead to easy buckets.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 13, 2010 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions
An inside out game?
Haven’t seen that in a while. Perhaps we can get some Love. Even BEasy should be better in that regard.
by Breaking Ankles on Jul 13, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I think between our 4 bigs
We can have a post presence. Pekovic has some post up moves. Love can post up. Darko for tips/rebounds. Beasley is the question mark. He was stuck in in-between land in Miami, but you can still have effective post game as a in-between SF/PF player in this league because so many teams do go small to run.
Maybe the most important
I feel like this helps us play better, and that is my point.
The picks will be moderate players, perhaps a good role player or two, and anything from the TPE is gravy. The reason I saw I like the trade before knowing any player we get from it, is because the players we get from it don’t really have much to do with the successfulness of the trade.
It is all about if our team, as is, plays and develops better because of it, and I saw it will, but of course it remains to be seem.
The SB Nation main page article
is relentless against Kahn. Unbelieveable..almost worst than Simmons/Woj.
The jury has (or shouldn''t have) reached a verdict
On Kahn.
Let’s see what the wins-losses are after this and subsequent years.
Yeah and everyone loved when the Knicks got Zach Randolph too
I'LL BITCH SLAP YOU WITH ROBERT SWIFT!!!
by My Name is Bryce on Jul 13, 2010 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Now, please get this man in a wolves uniform ASAP
The chief suitor for Fernandez’ talents would appear to be FC Barcelona. Not only are the Blaugrana apparently waiting to decide on contracts for Gianluca Basile and/or Roger Grimau in the hopes Fernandez might be freed up. And according to Spanish-language website Sport.es, that’s exactly where Fernandez wants to go: "Rudy and his representatives have commented that his desire is to play on the Blaugrana – next to his friend Ricky Rubio – and that would be his first choice should he decide to leave the NBA." Ball In Europe
Okay, but I read this as more ominous
Sounded like Rudy wanted to play in Spain (only) with Ricky. Could put a drag on Rudy coming to the NBA.
Don't like it, don't hate it, don't really know...
It’s not a trade for a fan to get “excited” about. We receive no players, and mediocre draft picks, for dumping a salary and losing our best scorer — and when last healthy — best player. That isn’t really cause for cheers, in my world of basketball fandom.
But, if the Wolves can snag a star player or future star player, by utilizing the cap space at the deadline, then I’ll probably like the deal. I like Kevin Love, and might like Michael Beasley and the rest, so long-term, this could work out.
The biggest risks involved here are first the PR hit for what Jefferson is about to do in Utah. He hardly could have joined a better situation to both thrive statistically and in the win/loss column. Down the road, this trade might look Pau Gasol-ish. Second, the risk that the Wolves win less than 25 games next year, which possibly could have been avoided with Big Al recovered from injury. Another crappy season (which nobody should discount, given the incredible uncertainty of this roster) would do more damage to the fan base, and put David Kahn on the hotseat… which could lead to desperation and who knows what else. I mean, what happens with Ricky Rubio if the Wolves go 24-58? Maybe a trade demand coupled with a threat to stay in Europe?
It’s not a great deal, but it’ll take time to evaluate.
i think we will be a .500 club next year
one more year Brett Favre!
I'm guessing an undefeated season
until opening night.
Illinois: My governor is a bigger crook than your governor
Weren't we 1-0 to start last year?
That big victory against The NJ Nets… before anybody knew how dreadful they were gonna be last year!
You have a very appropriate handle.
I’m not going to check the numbers, but I think that would result in the biggest one-season improvement in NBA history. I won’t be placing that bet in Vegas.
not close...
2008 Boston has that record comfortably. We should take some credit for that, of course…
We talked about this turnaround angle...
…way back when McHale said they’d go 42-40:
At 22-60 the Wolves are a .268 club with a fairly good chance of improving their record in the 2008-09 season. Unfortunately for the Iron Ranger, a 20 win improvement is nearly out of the question.
The probability of a 25-30% club improving their record in the following year is a hefty 73%. With a high draft pick and a full season of Al Jefferson and Randy Foye, the Wolves should be able to, at the very least, match their paltry victory total in 2007-08. Just how much they will improve is the question. The expected change in winning % for a 25-30% club is 9%, or about 7-8 wins (30-52 is a .366%). (Source: Basketball on Paper by Dean Oliver; p.111.)
In order to get to an even .500 (which is just below McHale’s lofty projection), the Wolves would have to increase their winning percentage by an amazing 23.2%. As you can see, McHale’s high hopes are just an itty-bitty bit off of historical projections for expected changes in win %. Of course, for folks like McHale, improvement is probably all about the appearance of will and effort. I wouldn’t expect any less from someone who supported the Mittster. I’d also like to believe that his statement has nothing to do with the fact that his good buddy Danny Ainge’s squad just took part in a 42 game improvement, but I wouldn’t put it past the Iron Ranger. I can just hear the gears working…"If Danny can do it…"
….
Just to give you an idea of how rare a 20 game turnaround is, the 2003-04 Nuggets won 26 more games than the previous season, ending up with a 43-39 record. The reason why? They added Andre Miller, Carmelo Anthony, and Marcus Camby. This is the 8th greatest single-season turnaround in NBA history. (Jason Kidd and the Nets had an equal turnaround in the 2000-01 season.) The 72 win Bulls are also on this list, improving by 25 games from the year before.
In short, not only would the Wolves have to buck historical trends along with beating younger and better teams within their own conference, but they would have to put together a historically significant turnaround in order to make McHale’s wild prediction a reality.
The best part about all of this is that if the Wolves improve to a relatively impressive 33-35 wins, they will likely forfeit their top 2009 Draft selection to the LA Clippers. Translation: According to the team’s own words, either they need McHale’s craziness to be true or they need to remain in the NBA’s cellar for the Let’s Build It Blueprint to actually work. Their boobery is so advanced that it almost doubles back on itself in an attempt to make its way out of the rabbit hole.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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I am legitimately excited
about seeing what Love can do with starter’s minutes. This was never going to happen until Al was cleared out.
Beasley will probably start
one more year Brett Favre!
In the name of putting the most talent out there...
would it be worth starting Beasley at the SF even though most metrics say he is better at PF? I mean he’s 6-8 in shoes and is very quick… I think he could pull it off considering that we already have Love.
Is there any reason why we need to start Wes Johnson as a rookie?
Which makes more sense for a "running team"?
Webster, Johnson, B-Easy. Darko
or
Webster, B-Easy, Love, Darko
nice small ball lineup
Decent all around rebounding with everyone being able to hit threes and at least Rubio and Beasley being able to take someone off the dribble.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 13, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I had to jump ahead a year
since Flynn has shown no ability to run a break, regardless of who is filling the lanes.
Unless....
It is the rookie/sophmore game.
by TheMorningAfter on Jul 13, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Or summer league
Flynn is great in formats where everyone’s decision-making is as bad as his. I hope he plays in the next game.
Will TPE be having an introductory press conference?
Anyone?
by Rascal Flatts on Jul 13, 2010 2:01 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
We made a jpg with that last year...
…I wish I could remember where the image was. All I could find was this:
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This is a slam dunk
Two days ago a lot of people were saying that they would trade Al straight up for Eric Dampier and that that was the highest value we could get for the guy.
Now we get the equivalent of Dampier and 2 first rounders to go with it!!!
This is a very good trade. At worst this is true equal value for Al. Even pre-injury we would have had a hard time getting a better trade than this. Bravo Kahn!
I hate to have to keep posting this link...
but here’s one NBA follower’s take on Al’s pre-injury trade value.
How quickly we forget
Al pre-injury.
But there seems to be more behind this Al Jefferson story to me. I sense it has something to do with the Kevin McHale – KG trade and the inability of some to get beyond it.
I’ve seen comments to the effect that “now we have finally gotten rid of all the former Celtics” dating back to the trade.
It is
the final stroke in severing this team from McHale brand ball, both philosophically and literally (in terms of personnel). In essence Kahn has just completed what he was hired to do last year, which is to truly start over with this team. Out are high skill/average size and athleticism guys and in are run-n-gun athletic young ’uns.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
Is that Simmons' hall of fame pyramid ranking system...
…or the one he made up to deal with the flaws in his own ranking system? ;)
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
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please
Bill Simmons’ take on an ex-Celtic first round pick?
I think Al Jefferson’s mother would provide a less biased opinion.
a giant part
of Al’s value then was that he was young with upside. He’s not as young, and he’s had a serious knee injury. With the nba mileage on his scarred body, and the realistic expectations of who he is as a player, his value isn’t that anymore.
If he fully recovers, and then improves his game (which his pre-injury value was predicated on), yeah, he’s worth more. He showed he wasn’t going to learn to play D in Minny, or do much but be a volume scorer and a solid rebounder. Sloan and/or the fact that he’s been shipped out yet again might light a fire under him to be something better. I hope so, because I like Al.
True...
And the only way we were gonna get two 1st-rounders out of Dallas was if we agreed to saddle ourselves with Matt Carroll and DeShawn Stevenson!
Other than, you know… basketball, the best part of this trade was that Kahn got to tell Donnie Nelson not to screw with him anymore. Dallas’ negotiations (if all the reported offers were at all accurate) was really embarrassing.
The overanalyzing on this site is ridiculous
You realize they have to play the actual game of basketball to win right? Not who can save 2mil dollars.
Kenny Powers.
understand your point
But the Wolves are rebuilding. They aren’t looking to bring in an overpaid vet to get them into the 1st round of the playoffs. They are putting together a young team that hopefully will grow together and turn into something special. The TPE we acquired will hopefully accelerate that growth period by acquiring another player.
Please expand on that line of reasoning
I hear that type of post all the time. We don’t want to build a team just to get into the first round of the playoffs and then be eliminated. Which teams, in your opinion, have teams currently built to do just that: get into the first round with the likelihood of being eliminated? Are their fans chafing as much as they should, disappointed that their team hasn’t torn down to the 15-win studs in an effort to get them all the way to the top? BTW, which players on our current roster are likely to lift us to that, at least palatable second round exit level? Teams like OKC may have a bright future with their player dealings, but the linchpin of the whole deal was a pure luck no-brainer, choosing Durant. That trumps everything else. How long before we have an even respectable team that folks will find entertaining?
by ogishkemuncie on Jul 13, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I just look at the Wolves
After their WCF run. They endlessly overspent and made stupid trades trying to get players to help KG make another run. Even at their best, they were a veteran team that had little to no chance of internal improvement. Everything had to come in free agency or trades which completely stripped them of draft picks and roster flexibility. When the Wolves were building around KG – it was FUN to watch them as they went through the growing pains to improve into a legitimate playoff team.
There are a few teams I can point to that may want to think about tearing things down and starting over:
Pistons – Overpaid for Charlie V and Gordon. Multiple players away from being a contender.
Pacers – They have Granger but little else.
Hawks – Overpaid Joe Johnson – got waxed in the 2nd round last year and are probably the 6th best team in the East. No real help coming
Charlotte – They have been trying to build forever with no real strategy. Made playoffs but were easily put down. Just traded away their best big man.
Hornets – Chris Paul and not a lot else.
Right now I am wrilling to give Kahn the benefit of the doubt. This is a multi-year rebuilding effort and Jefferson didn’t fit into his plans. For the first time in a long time – this team has a direction they are going. They are bringing in players that fit what they want to do and are hoping this team can grow together and learn how to win together. This plan might fail – but at least it’s a plan.
by jpeso on Jul 13, 2010 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
What else is there to do?
Are you suggesting we (gasp)GO OUTSIDE OR SOMETHING???
can't during work
maybe later.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 13, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
I print of S&P’s column and then spend my breaks outside reading the site anyways!
by TheMorningAfter on Jul 13, 2010 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Trade Exception
Can the trade exception that we got from Utah be shipped off to a different team at some point in the future? Or is it only a benefit for the team that originally has it?
by MinnesotaCatFan on Jul 13, 2010 2:30 PM CDT reply actions
Yes--
“I am an International Man of Mystery. That’s why the only bread I’ll eat is White Bread from Wonder.”
by PoorDick on Jul 13, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jazz fans
seem to think this deal was a total steal for them. They also want to put Jefferson at center and think Sloan can get him to play defense…..
Well, as much defense as Sloan got Boozer to play
Granted Al isn’t Tim Duncan, but it won’t be hard to be a better defender than Booz…
If he plays defense, it was a total steal
Good luck with that!
We got two first rounders...
….and didn’t give up Flynn. So in the end, Kahn more or less got what he wanted in terms of extra assets
This trade really beckons the question
What is the right way to build a team? This was a terribly lopsided trade if it is judged just on the talent. I think that this has been flagrant ’s point. However it could still be fair value for us.
Kahn and Rambis have chosen a path of team building that is based around the system, not the talent. I guess the upside of this approach is that you can target types of players instead of going off of pure talent. I think this explains the draft picks (Johnson over cousins etc).
The downside of this approach is that you can’t get an accurate view of a player’s value because your perspective is always framed by their performance in the system. This can also cause you to overvalue a player’s worth (Frodo Ridnour).
Additionally, the Krambis regime has chosen to emphasize player development over wins in the short term. It is hard to argue with this approach in not signing a marginal or even good player to a big contract for the short term.
Krambis has chosen the system approach for better or for worse. I think that any GM should get 3 years before they are really judged. That being said, if this team doesn’t win something in the 30 game range this coming season or use this exception to net a potential star player at a bargain rate (not a bad gamble with the impending lockout) then I think that we can condemn not only Kahn but the idea that systems instead of talent create winning franshises.
I mean c’mon 30 wins is really freakin reasonable. That still puts us in the bottom of the league. But it is a 200% increase in wins and thus shows that the system is performing. Then after the lockout we should get to the playoffs. If that doesn’t happen then we can also unleash condemnation.
This is an experiment. I can’t think of any other team that has been built like this. It kind of resembles the way the football teams are built actually.
by Harvey Ratner on Jul 13, 2010 4:06 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
The Thunder were buillt like this
Let Rashard Lewis go in free agency. Traded away Allen and drafted Durant and Green. Then drafted Westbrook the following year. I believe they still have a good amount of cap room even with the Durant extension.
The biggest difference is the Thunder lucked their way into Durant.
They're out of cap room.
Collison and Krystic are on the payroll this year for around $6 million each. Then they add in another $6 million in taking on Morris Peterson to get Cole Aldrich, and they’re pretty much spent. Next year, all three $6 million dollar deals expire, but then Durant’s extension kicks in and eats up most of it. Jeff Green will need an extension too, and will probably get close to $8 million since people haven’t realized he sucks.
But other than that, yes, their future looks bright.
thanks for clarifying
especially like the Jeff Green comment. I totally agree – someone is going to regret the contract they give him.
What's weird is
He fits the same profile as Beasley: a 3/4 ’tweener who struggles with defense and scoring efficiency. Beasley was far more dominant in college, is 2.5 years younger, and has shown more flashes of greatness than Green has. Yet somehow everyone thinks Green is this important piece of an up-and-coming contender while Beasley is chopped liver.
I will never understand
Why it’s so hard to look past the numbers and see that he’s nothing special. Seems like he’s maybe 1 peg above Ryan Gomes, but like you said, people consider him an integral part of that team. If I were Presti I’d have ditched Green for whatever picks/young talent I could have gotten before I have to extend him.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Why it’s so hard to look past the numbers and see that he’s nothing special.
Or you could even just look at the numbers. They’ll tell you too.
He must have been talking about
mpg
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Next year's success relates to a main issue...
Is Jefferson more like KG in his impact or more like Christian Laettner and J.R. Rider? Here’s what the Wolves received for Laettner (who was traded with Sean Rooks) from Atlanta and Rider from Portland: Andrew Lang, Spud Webb, Hollywood Robinson, Bill Curley, and Paul Grant. Laettner’s teams averaged 20 wins per season before he was moved to the Hawks in the middle of KG’s rookie year, and Rider’s teams won 20, 21, and 26 before he was moved in the offseason that they drafted Marbury. In both cases, neither player’s productivity was replaced by the guys received in return. Laettner was redundant with Tom Gugliotta, while Rider wasn’t necessarily replaced. The Wolves don’t have KG or Stephon Marbury on their current team, but the team in the season after those 2 trades went forward partially because losing Laettner and Rider led to a more effective team.
Just like with Laettner and Rider, no one person will replace Jefferson, but the void will create increased opportunities for talented and/or more-efficient newcomers and some of the holdovers. some of his minutes will be filled more efficiently by Love, some of of the responsibility of post scoring will be filled by Pekovic, and his scoring responsibility will be filled by Johnson, Beasley, and Pekovic. There will be a decreased reliance on his offense because the defense will be improved. I’m not saying this team will be a lot better, but transactions don’t happen in a vacuum, and losing Jefferson doesn’t mean his production is irreplaceable.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 13, 2010 4:19 PM CDT reply actions
Wait...
so, is it just Jefferson that is being traded, not including Brewer?
How long until Al makes Jerry Sloan's head explode?
I’m a huge fan of Sloan’s. Though he is plum crazy, he’s a great coach. If he can’t get Al to D-up, no one can.
Will be very interesting to see how it goes. Al now becomes just like Beasley and Darko…. talented players who found themselves staring in the mirror at their own truly pathetic perceived value around the league. Will he answer the call?
The Big Al move is a complete revisiting of the Blazers' dump of Zach Randolph, 'cept cheaper.
Blazers had to pay lots of money to get nothing back for a 20-and-10 guy.
The decision is nuts.
Signing Darko was nuts.
It’s really hard for this outsider to figure out what Kahn is doing, if he knows himself…
"A bizarre and extremely rare hybrid Blazer/Laker fan, Timbo has always struggled to contain the Beast Within, like Dr. Jekyll, Bruce Banner, or Ted Kennedy." — Miled Animal
so you're saying that the Blazers dumping zbo was a bad decision?
by The Most Interesting Man in the World on Jul 13, 2010 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, that totally blew up in their faces
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 13, 2010 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Not to late to get him back via a
sign-and-trade with Memphis next summer, sending back LMA. Bring ’Sheed out of retirement—see if Sabonis is still alive. They might have something, then.
I heard JR Rider was looking for a tryout
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 13, 2010 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions
One might argue
that there was actually more individual talent on this team (top to bottom) than some NBA champions.
And three UNLV alumni!
That team was nuts
In NBA inside drive 2000. Bonzi Wells once had a world of potential, and I’ll always remember Sheed as an absolute beast.
Who is the all-star? Who is the leader? Who is the face of the franchise?
Every good team needs an all-star, a leader and a face. Sometimes its one person and sometimes its three. We clearly don’t have a clue if we have an all-star on this team. Probably not. Not sure if we have a leader, but I"m guessing that one of the reasons Khan and company are getting rid of Big Al is so that Love can become the face of the franchise. And, based on his hard work on the floor, he will probably quickly become the leader of the team.
Just some thoughts.
Ideally,
this gets sorted out by the time we become a “good team”. No need to anoint anyone yet, there’s still one season before the Rubio piece of the puzzle joins us and we can finally take stock.
The Howlin' Jesús
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
dude has some long fingers
by The Most Interesting Man in the World on Jul 13, 2010 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Most underrated physcial trait in basketball...
Key indicator of potential for ball-handling ability, shooting, passing/receiving, rebounding… If I were an NBA scout I would be taking a rule to the digits of every prospect that walks through the door.
you might be on to something there.
I think coming into the league Rajan Rondo’s only good trait was his long fingers. That seems to be working out for him.
by The Most Interesting Man in the World on Jul 15, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Intimidating
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Kosta is in the deal for Al
According to Darren Wolfsen’s Twitter:
DarrenWolfson RT @tribjazz Kosta Koufos is in the deal to Minnesota, his agent confirms.
According to Jerry Z, he's not staying
Via Twitter: “Kahn said he’ll work with agent to move him to team where he might play more”
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 13, 2010 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions
since koufos was in the deal do we still get the tpe or whatever?
"Brian Cardinal left Purdue being the only Boilermaker to receive both the "Mr. Hustle" Award and the "Courage" Award four years in a row"
they get cap space
the tpe was split, as best as i could tell. they can’t talk about the specifics for some reason yet.
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