Big Al And More
OK, I'll start out this post with the same statement I made after the Darko signing and the draft: This season's status quo was a front court of Al Jefferson, Kevin Love, and DeMarcus Cousins with a wing cache of James Anderson or Luke Babbitt. This was before an additional first round pick, millions in cap space, and the Darko/Pek signings. No matter what Kahn does from here on out, his actions should always be viewed against what could have happened had he simply stayed put and drafted Cousins instead of Wes Johnson and, while we're at it, Steph Curry instead of Jonny Flynn. This isn't crying over spilled milk. We called these picks in real time and we were adamant that Kahn made a huge mistake in real time. It's how we judge the guy and we're sticking to it. The Hoopus draft record in the past two years would have landed the
That being said, Kahn's non-draft related moves have been better than advertised, especially when taken in aggregate. Also, let's not ignore the possibility that while Kahn may not have drafted the BPA at each step of the way (and I think it is clear that he hasn't), he hasn't exactly drafted a load of busts either. Go take a look at the 08/09 roster. Do you like what you see?
- Jonny Flynn/Ramon Sessions
- Martel Webster/Corey Brewer/Lazar Hayward/Wayne Ellington
- Wes Johnson/Michael Beasley/Corey Brewer
- Kevin Love/Michael Beasley/Ryan Hollins
- Darko Milicic/Nikola Pekovic
- Ricky Rubio/(Flynn/Sessions/Ridnour)
- Iggy/Webster/(Hayward/Ellington/Brewer)
- Wes Jonhson/Webster
- Love/Beasley
- Milicic/Pekovic
For Minnesota, I can’t argue with the idea of trading Jefferson. There was no way he could coexist in the same frontcourt as Kevin Love, and I’m a huge Love fan. Additionally, wiping away Jefferson’s $13 million opens the door to substantial cap space — they’ll have it right away but may not choose to use it until next summer. Alternatively, they can adopt the Oklahoma City model and rent out their cap space in return for more assets. And, of course, two first-rounders never hurt.
Regardless, a frontcourt with Love, Michael Beasley, Nikola Pekovic and Darko Milicic will be a considerable improvement on last season’s unit, at both ends of the floor. The Wolves likely will spend another year in the basement, but one can at least see the kernels of a foundation taking shape.
3 recs |
195 comments
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Comments
Official movement to
start replying immediately to your own thread so we don’t have anyone racing to point out how quickly they clicked a button?
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
I'd prefer a system/movement
of ostracizing those who do it repeatedly.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
I'll second that
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Jul 14, 2010 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
What do ostriches
have to do with anything?
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 14, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Plenty
Are you prepared to be Ostrichized?

I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
Is that a filling
on #18?
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
Mark Twain
Let's go ask
the one-handed dentist.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
When will Pek sign?
Kahn on timberwolves.com said something like we hope to get him signed soon. Is there a hold up? We do kind of need him to avoid Hollins. Do we keep Koufos until Pek signs at least?
I'll ask during the..
…next presser.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
In his last interview, Kahn used the word "hopefully" when talking about Pek's contract situation
It sounds like nothing is actually in place right now
Kahn says he told Koufos he will move him
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Jul 14, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Winning cures a lot of ills
If/when this team starts winning some games (which seems like an inevitable when, at this point), everyone will start talking about how smart Kahn is and how he had the vision to build the team step by step
And maybe one or two ESPN writers will be mature enough to admit their mistake and not try to claim they knew it would work all along. Maybe…
I'm always reminded of Danny Ainge in these situations
ESPN’s track record covering Ainge?
2005 – garbage GM
2006 – garbage GM
2007 – beyond garbage GM
2008 – best GM in any sport on the face of the planet
Well..
…to be fair, Kahn’s plan is a home run swing and it hinges on two big ifs right now: If Rubio comes and if he can use the cap space. If those things don’t materialize, then he’s screwed and nobody will owe anyone an apology. It’s a risky strategy.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
A home run swing for contendership
But in terms of just improving the team to the point of reaching the playoffs again, the current roster should be able to do that with a few years of development. And reaching the playoffs is usually the threshold the media takes when judging a team executive. The Bucks got nowhere near a championship last season, but everyone still suddenly did a 180 on their front office
This doesn't matter to most fans
but even if Kahn fails, he saved Taylor a tremendous amount of money while swinging for the fences. Most teams swing for the fences while spending a ton of money, which makes failure twice as bad (see Knicks, Isaiah Thomas era….Stoudamire era??).
So, Kahn's grade at best is "incomplete"
and potentially an “A” for avocado?
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
if rudio come which i feel is certain...
Then this team is one good pick up away from being scary good. Not many teams build from ground up. Add an iggy with Rubicon and good lord
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 13, 2010 11:11 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Ricky Rubio
Is the future linchpin for the Wolves. He is the play maker and transition music maker.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
That’s assuming Rubio lights the world on fire though too. Too me, Rubio could be the second coming of Rondo. A guy who is a true PG, and a guy who can run your offense. In that case, we still need to make sure we have the guys around him.
by packallday555 on Jul 14, 2010 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions
i see rubio as a rondo with some 3pt range too. and i think if webster/johnson/brewer/love can shoot, then that leaves rubio a LOT of space to work with on the basketball floor, and with his passing ability…. damn. kahn has taken a lot if heat but in theory i really like the way this team is set up for Sir Rubio
by NuthinBurger on Jul 14, 2010 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Defense
Do you think Rubio can play defense like Rondo? Being a superior defender is no small feat.
by midlife crisis on Jul 14, 2010 6:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I thought Rubio was known for his D
I have nothing to back it up but I just thought he was solid from things I have heard
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 14, 2010 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes he is
How many 17 year olds are the defensive player of the year in their pro league? Only one that I know of, and it wasn’t me. :0
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Jul 14, 2010 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
he know for his stealing yes and taking risks
but defending one on one not right now. No don’t get me wrong if he gets stronger more Nba ready he will be an Above average defender but I see him more a project like Brandon Jennings a lot of hype, upside and numbers will be iffy some good games some really bad ones in his rookie season. Ultimately he will be best Spanish defender he is like other Spanish PG that absolutely suck at D, like Calderon. On offense his shot will get better with experience he has the passing down and we will have the right players when gets here to put okay number as long he doesn’t get frustrated or homesick anxiety we will have a good player. The key will be getting more Spanish players around him
Rubio's court vision
allows him to see the passing lanes the opponent is likely to use and he’s quick enough to make use of those reads. His lateral quickness leaves something to be desired, but it won’t be the end of the world. He’s taller than most point guards and has long arms too. But he’s so thin that guys like Deron Williams, Derrick Rose, and John Wall should be able to push him around a little.
(or at least that’s pretty much what every scouting report I’ve read on the guy says.)
if the wolves
get above average rim protection from the paint and weakside then yes I think Rubio will be a plus defender. The problem is that his long arms are better suited to closing off passing lanes and going for steals. If he can gamble and fails, then the point needs to have something to think about to allow Rubio to successfully recover.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 14, 2010 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions
The all-in on Rubio thing
I completely understand that we want this guy here ASAP, but are people suggesting that if we were all-in on Flynn that we wouldn’t’ve brought the players in that we did? We still want to be uptempo, and we still want athletic, long players. I know that Rubio is the first option, but are we implying that Kahn’s philosophy is a fail if Rubio doesn’t come. Athleticism is athleticism and Flynn fits in with that too.
Great post
Hit the nail on the head. I still haven’t figured out the ineptness of the national media/supposed basketball experts in figuring out what Kahn is doing. The team as it stands right now should win 30 games.
Remember, Beasley was the No. 2 option on a playoff team. Johnson and Love are both No. 2 or 3 options on playoff teams. We’re just missing one scorer. Kahn clearly has his eyes on the deadline—Iggy, Granger, etc.
The big question
is whether Kahn even wants this team to be going for more than 30 wins this season. It is my opinion that the team should try to use this season to learn how to win the same way OKC did 2 years ago. However, winning more than 30 games would probably come back to bite us because of the top-10 protected pick we owe the Clippers next year. If this team wants to make a serious run at respectability this year, Kahn could use that trade exception to acquire Ben Gordon from Detroit. Gordon is the type of scorer you can go to for a must-have basket near the end of a close game that this team clearly lacked last season (just re-watch the classic Bulls-Celtics series from 2 years ago for proof). It would completely kill our cap space, so I think we shouldn’t do it – especially considering that we don’t know whether any of the new acquisitions are capable of filling that need. But if that was the direction Kahn wanted the team to go, we could arrive sooner rather than later by making this move.
Nice write-up, SnP.
I think the most remarkable thing about the roster to date is how quickly he has completely overhauled the roster in 2 off seasons. I am amazed at how fast this guy operates.
Another good write up
And here’s one more: http://probasketballnews.com/story/?storyid=1083
Kahn not afraid to go against the grain
It’s been said that our greatest strength is also our greatest weakness. For Kahn I think it’s his tendency to go against conventional wisdom. Sometimes he’s too clever for his own good.
But in this case, I love the fact that he did do what “conventional wisdom” would do… And that’s throw money around like a drunken sailor. Just because it’d look good to acquire a high profile asset…let’s be real here, we weren’t going to get anyone who didn’t have a bloated contract with a lot of years left. So I love what he did… refused to take it.
Perhaps we have slightly overpaid for a few FAs (Hollins, Darko, Sessions)… none of those deals shackle the team, like like 8-figure salaries.
The thin skin
I don’t give a damn about what national commentators say about the Wolves and neither should you. Why?
1. You have zero control over them or what they say, and
2. I don’t think anyone who matters really cares much about what they say
Rather, for me it is much more useful to consider various sides of an issue before formulating an educated opinion.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Great point on the Blueprint to Blueprint point...
We have been through the rebuilding of the Wolves… over and over again… its time we get a lineup we can grow a little with and actually see development with over a couple of seasons… as opposed to those that want Flynn gone after a year, or want a new trade exception every year… there is something to be said for players growing together and developing team chemistry
by San Diego Viking on Jul 13, 2010 10:55 PM CDT reply actions
I agree on sticking to a plan - and I assume Kahmbis would too
To be honest, I believe the Kahmbis Blueprint might be the first one we’ve had since McHale’s detailed “KG + Marbuy + stuff” plan a decade or so ago.
The subsquent pre-Kahn Blueprints seemed like garbage to me:
- 25% Marketing hype – “We have a plan!”.
- 25% Appeal to ticket buyers’ perceived wishes – “We are only going to add high character players to the team”
- 25% Status quo – “We are building around KG – err Foye – err Jefferson”
- 25% Wishful Thinking – “We will grow from within! Acquire good players!”
About the only concrete things I saw in the pre-Kahn “plan” were:
- Clear cap space for 2010. A good idea.
- Smash-mouth basketball = playing inside-out with guys that can rebound
That is not exactly a 200 page opus on roster composition, style of play, method of player, acquisition, etc.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 13, 2010 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions
As painful as it may be to comprehend for some
Kahn walked into a nice situation with cap space and numerous future draft picks. The draft picks are highly questionable for 2009, and I give considerable credit to Tony and Kurt for the 2010 draft picks that look much better.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I agree Kahn walked into a kitchen with a well-stocked cupboard
I also agree that the draft last year, outside of Rubio, looks like a below average effort. Many would argue that Wes and Hayward represent non-optimal picks this year too.
My point was just regarding Blueprints. I think they have one now, and I agree with SnP that despite questionable moves on the way Kahn has been remarkably consistent in trying to implement it.
The Wolves claimed they had Blueprints in the past, but other than a good job of clearing cap and acquiring picks I have no idea what that previous plan was. Play a half-court game built around two talented PFs who cannot defend? Acquire a shooter (Miller) who is neither the right age nor willing to shoot? Acquire a SG who played some SF in college (Foye) and convert him to PG because he showed moxy during March Madness?
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 13, 2010 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions
I believe the blueprints were as follows
McHale Blueprint – win now (or the best we can now)
During the McHale era, it was win as many games as you can right away. That led to a mixture of veterans and draftees. It was styled around the way Mac and the Celtics played basketball, heavy on half court offensive sets with a premium on tenacity. We can probably agree on the successfulness of that blueprint, but wasn’t “McFail” involved with drafting KG as a prerequisite of the franchise’s most serious playoff run? Sammy and Spree were vet add-ons for example.
2009 What Blueprint?
Last year, we had the vagueness of David Kahn (who himself never played the game or coached) trying to divine a general “running with the Wolves” marketing approach, and a suspect 2009 draft and assembly of loose parts for the roster (Hollins, Pech, Wilkins). Kahn entered late in the summer (mid-August 2009).
2010 Showtime Wolves
With the partnership of Kahn-Rambis-then Tony, flesh has been put on the bones of a vague “running with the Wolves” marketing theme. Through the adversity of trying to get loose parts to play the triangle and become a transition based team, Rambis had to articulate to Kahn what he needed to implement his offense and defensive schemes.
Consequently, you are seeing the acquisition of talent supportive of Kurt’s vision and the loose (Cardinal-Hollins-Pech-Wilkins) parts are falling off the roster and replaced with more athletic, lengthy players.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
should be: Kurt entered late in the summer (mid-August 2009)
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Flagrant, I'll give you that point...
but I just want some kind of continuity, whether that’s Kahn’s doing or Ronzone/Rambis… change is good when you suck, but continual change sucks even more, because you have nothing to hang your hat on year after year.
This may sound stupid, but really, as a fan, I want to buy TWolve merchandise, like a jersey… if I had bought Jefferson last year because he was the best player, that jersey would be useless now… if I buy Flynn (or Love, Brewer etc.) now, how secure is that based on the postings denigrating each of those players now. At some point the TWolves have to stick with somebody, and the sooner the better.
by San Diego Viking on Jul 13, 2010 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions
My tip
Do not buy any Timberwolves jerseys unless there is a detachable, velcro name plate on the back. Things are going to be turbulent for some time to come.
Better yet, get a jersey with your name on the back.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
+1
I only have a KG jersey, and I’ll take your advice, It will probably stay that way for awhile… even though every time I put on a Mauer/Peterson/Koivu jersey a part of me wishes I had a TWolve counterpart.
by San Diego Viking on Jul 13, 2010 11:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Rubio
it’s the one thing Kahn has been absolutely adament about. Rubio will play with the TWolves and he will be our star.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jul 14, 2010 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Then it will be sweet...
…when he is signed so we can buy licensed gear, huh?
Al's market was just fine, thank you
You had a willing buyer and a willing seller, and a fair price at or near where Al’s contract was at. So, you did have Big Al’s market materialize. But let’s not let the facts cloud the misconceptions.
Unlike some here, the Utah Jazz are very happy with the Jefferson acquisition. Probably just as pleased as the cynics are in having him move on. After all, the cynics are pleased to get the final remnant of the KG trade removed from the roster, as ill advised as it may well prove to be. (it borders on the psychotic to continue to hold a “McFail” grudge for so long).
All things considered, I like Al’s future much better than the one Kahn has presently on the table for the Wolves.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Isn't WEllington
part of the KG trade? so still one piece left on that.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jul 14, 2010 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Pretty sure we drafted him with the BOS pick we got in the KG trade
That’s why it was #28 (or something like that).
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Yep, so wellington
is the last piece still remaining from the KG trade. Lets start B*tching at kahn for fubaring that deal, WEllington will never reach teh potential of KG, how dare he trade KG for WEllington!
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jul 14, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Stop-n-pop...
…You have successfully replaced Britt Robson as the best Timberwolves blogger in the Twin Cities. Here’s to you!
Second that on the Britt thing
I watched part of a Wolves game on TV with Britt once. I was following the action while he was telling everyone in the room what was really going on. The game he was watching was much more interesting than the one I saw.
Stop-n-pop has taught me everything I know about the NBA, but it’s not his fault I still don’t understand this game other than hating on losing.
Danke...
…but Britt is still the best. Hopefully he will find a very nicely paying home for his Wolves work in the very near future.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Another take on the Jefferson trade
Even if he gets close to where he was pre-knee injury, the deal isn’t that bad for the Wolves due to salary savings, extra playing time for Love, and the 1st round picks. However, if Jefferson is never better than 90% of what so far is his peak, this trade is a big hit for the Wolves. Either way, it will be interesting to see if Sloan can be the first coach to teach Jefferson what it means to play defense.
Two other notes: This team is definitely improved, probably even better than two years ago.
Also, Kahn seems to be a system guy. The best thing is he is sticking to his plan. The failure to stick to the plan and ultimately going back and forth is why most system guys struggle. Staying consistent makes up for some mistakes.
Nitpicking
Not exactly the right place for this but Lazar is not a 2. He’s a 3 and only a 3 IMO. You may want to alter that depth chart.
by jama on Jul 13, 2010 11:00 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Probably not no. Most of the time he guarded 4’s in college IMO.. Even guarding 3’s in the NBA could be a problem for him.
by packallday555 on Jul 14, 2010 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions
He guarded 4s because the team needed him to and because their other good players were guys shorter than him. It was a necessity for the team, not for him.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 14, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Well yeah, he played a 4 for them so he guarded the other 4’s. I’m not sure he has the quickness to guard a 3 in the league. I guess we’ll find out soon enough.
by packallday555 on Jul 14, 2010 2:48 AM CDT up reply actions
That could be part
of the reason he was drafted at the bottom of the first round rather than the top. I suppose the real question is whether he’ll be around after the second year of his contract. With all of the young players on this team I figure the only way the team picks up his option is if he develops into a real threat to score from long distance.
Fun fact
Xavier Henry hasn’t signed with the Grizzlies yet, as he has only been offered 80 percent of the rookie scale as opposed to the customary 120 percent. He also signed Rudy Gay for an obscene amount of money.
Even though Kahn seems to be getting the short end of the stick in a lot of his deals and picks, he has yet to be unprofessional or uncongenial, and he has yet to make a signing that will irreparably damage the team (like an Eddy Curry contract). The ship may be sinking slowly, but it hasn’t yet been torpedoed.
This is likely damning with faint praise, but I am happy that we have a plan and are sticking to it. However inept anyone in this organization may be, I like the honest and thorough way they are treating the players and fans. At least our perennially terrible team doesn’t have to deal with deplorable people like James Dolan or Donald Sterling in control.
I saw that and couldn't believe it
The encylopedia has a new picture next to the phrase “Penny Wise and Pound Foolish”. His name is Michael.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 13, 2010 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions
I’d even throw Ellington in that, if they want him.
Or, give them Sessions and their own draft pick back.
I would LOVE to get Henry.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on Jul 14, 2010 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions
Thought about mentioning him
But his organization hasn’t been especially dysfunctional. His recent conduct as an owner, however, has been embarrassing. I mean, Mark Cuban could teach him a lesson in prudence after that letter.
The Mark Cuban School of Etiquette and Prudence, nice!
Maybe Gilbert has been hanging around Rush Limbaugh, who made some kind remarks about Steinbrenner today.
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
Mark Twain
*sigh*
“Well, I haven’t said anything racially tone-deaf to generate controversy in a while. Might as well say something ignorant that in my bizarro world actually passes for enlightened racial discourse.” Cue ensuing claims of victimhood and reverse racism by “lamestream media” while pandering to sycophants.
Also, who calls anybody cracker anyway? It’s not at all offensive to me, it’s just lame (even in jest.)
Not sure Glenn Beck is a member here
though he could perhaps be masquerading as Maynholup.
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
Mark Twain
Maynholup
Makes way to much sense for that to be possible.
by TheMorningAfter on Jul 14, 2010 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions
grinning over morning coffee here
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."
Mark Twain
What's different with the Wolves is not Kahn
If we are going to dish out any credit, and make 2009/10 roster comparisons with the present-day roster, the difference is not Kahn. After all, Kahn put the 2009/10 roster together, bumps, warts and all.
No, the difference is the other guys in the partnership: Tony and Kurt to be exact. Keep in mind, Kurt was late to the game last year, having just completed his role in making the Lakers world champions.
Credit Kahn to the extent you feel it makes sense, but just as much if not more credit for any substantive changes is attributed to Tony and Kurt.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
by Flagrant on Jul 13, 2010 11:10 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I am of the opinion that Kahn has good skills in networking, dealmaking, and contracts
If he can get enough competent talent guys working with him, things might turn out OK. I think the recent MIA and UTA deals have a level of sophistication and attention to detail that we haven’t seen as Wolves fans.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 13, 2010 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
I’m not seeing stupid moves from Kahn thus year.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 13, 2010 11:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Read my post
I repeat, to the extent Kahn deserves credit, that credit should be shared with Kurt and Tony, who weren’t part of the formation of the 2009/10 roster and the 2009 draft.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
OK I give up trying to make a distinction
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jul 13, 2010 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Why do you make a distinction at all?
Kahn-Rambis-Tony are “partners”
I’ll save my credit until we see how it translates on the court though.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
How I see it
Rambis and Ronzone are certainly the talent and fit evaluators, whereas Kahn is the final decision maker, deal broker, and negotiator. I think it’s pretty amazing to see that we didn’t overpay once for anyone, that we’ve gotten significantly longer and more athletic (and younger!), all while upgrading talent at nearly every position this year compared to last year. Kahn may not be Jerry West when it comes to finding players, but he’s appearing much more competent at correctly valuing players than what we grew accustomed to during the McHale era of the franchise. There’s something potential very powerful and persuasive if you can combine a great negotiator/salary guy with a great talent evaluating team.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 14, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
i can't tell if you're being a Rambis fan or hater here.
I assume hater
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 13, 2010 11:15 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Huh?
Pretty clear, realistically Kurt and Tony as Kahn “partners” (Kahn’s term) deserve any credit that is being given to Kahn.
For me, I’ll wait for wins v. losses.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
David Kahn is the GM
Therefore the final decision in regards to any of these moves rests with him. You can say Tony and Kurt suggest players A and B, but ultimately, Kahn was the guy who put them in their positions underneath him.
Kahn deserves the lion’s share of whatever he ends up making of this team, be it good or bad.
"We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me." - Deep Thoughts
Whatever
Believe what you wanta believe. Your choice not mine.
It’s all about the w’s baby
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
amen
"This town, this night, this crowd
Come on put them up, let me hear it loud"
by Stay classy, Joe. on Jul 14, 2010 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I will say
that Kahn deserves credit in-as-much as he’s the fall guy if everything goes bad, not Rambis and Ronzone (at least not yet). Kurt and Tony may tell him which guys to get, and he may get them, but right now the price of them (Rambone) being protected by Kahn-as-fall-man is that Kahn gets perhaps more credit than he is due (re: talent evaluation) if it all works out well.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 14, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Kahn will have to be judged
ultimately on whether he can put coaches and assistants in place that know what the hell they are talking about and listen to them. That and not making horrible deals that don’t reflect the market or are untenable for the wolves financial future.
First year grade: C ish
Second year grade: B ish
Hope it keeps improving.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 14, 2010 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Give credit where credit is due and blame where blame is due.
The decision to wait until after the draft last year to hire a coach is probably the worst decision Kahn has made as GM of this team. I believe last year’s draft would have produced better results if the team knew what system the coach was likely to run prior to drafting those guys. With that said, the decision to take Flynn over Curry only makes sense if Curry’s refusal to work out here can be seen as an unequivocal declaration of having absolutely no desire to play here and a willingness to hold out for a trade. Even if that was the case, other players still made much more sense than Flynn at the #6 spot.
I find it remarkable
Some think that KG was not actively vying for a trade months in advance of it actually happening. It wasn’t as if he wasn’t an active participant, he had surrogates like Charles Barkley shilling for him months in advance to have him traded to a more competitive team.
Another thing: as we give backhanded complements to Al Jefferson, let’s not blame the alleged shortcomings of the individual (selective states be damned) with the inadequacies of the entire team.
I’ll miss Al’s contribution to the Wolves, but I won’t miss the cynical play by some to cast dispersions on the best player on the Wolves since he came over in the trade with the Celtics.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
The only thing that ever bothered me about Al was
that he didn’t play D. At all. Like Ricky Davis bad defense.
We’ll see what Sloane gets out of him.
Transition
Al had literally the worst transition defense awareness of any player I’ve ever seen in the NBA.
He would stare at the big man he was running back with, completely oblivious to where the ball was.
It was like watching a 5th grader, and made me want to give up my season tickets.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on Jul 14, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Amen
He had the tools to be a good, or even better, defender, but his awareness just wasn’t there. Constantly late on rotations or facing the wrong direction while a guard waltzed up to score at the rim…
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Another powerful post by SnP
Man keep bringing the heat, great write up…I am begining to think that Kahn is the king of the poker face. Look like the chump and go for the jugular when they least expect it. As of now he is making the most with what we had, the al sweepstakes would loose momentum the more desperate we looked. Ship him now, replace the jaric mistake draft pick, stock up the $ and wait for the perfect time to reel in the next big piece. We forget that MN is all about the cold when your team is frozen, but when you start putting the pieces together you turn into the northern Thunder. They will follow the $ and the W’s
"My buyout? I don’t know…eet eez very compleecated." -Ricky Rubio (when asked about his contract)
Jesus Christ was this a great post
You should’ve been paid for doing this the past couple of years, SnP, but it won’t be long before you’re being paid.
Every single word, every single sentence, every single idea….fucking perfect. Perspective, man…you got it. You’re a credit to whatever it is you are.
/no homo
/alright, slight homo
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jul 13, 2010 11:35 PM CDT reply actions
Can I get an "Amen"?
Oh, forgetaboutit.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Ha, Pause....
No homo; the Boondocks is one of the greatest shows on TV.
by TheMorningAfter on Jul 14, 2010 12:35 AM CDT up reply actions
It needs to be said:
that is perhaps one of the absolute worst catch phrases out there. I don’t know what Boondocks is, but if it came from that show, that show should be off the air yesterday.
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Context
In a society where any mention of race or sexual orientation is taboo The Boondocks is one of the most enlightening and clever shows. Numerous NBA players watch and our own Flynn twittered a comment about it the other day; the show repeatedly takes and uses phrases like mentioned to help point out how dumb they are. Charlie Murphy and Samuel L. Jackson playing two of the few white people on the show is priceless.
by TheMorningAfter on Jul 14, 2010 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
The I appreciate it for pointing out how dumb that phrase is
now we just need that message to sink in…
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
I'm trying real hard to not get angry when I see Cousins play
But it’s tough. Come on Wes, be dominant in your next game so I can be at ease for a few months.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
DMC is nasty good
but Wes ain’t gonna be far behind. Wes’ shot is wet and he’s got jets to the rim. Long arms!
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Yeah, Wes has good potential. Even if his shot doesn’t translate to the NBA (which I think it will), he still has the athletic ability to be a good slasher, as well as good defender and rebounder in the league.
by packallday555 on Jul 14, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Speaking of which
Did you see Sanders play tonight Casper?
Dude looks like an absolute stud. Dropped two straight 3’s to bring his team within 3 and then to tie, with the second one coming off a pump fake one-dribble pull up with 4 seconds left over Darrell Arthur. Ridiculous. He also has a fadeaway that’s textbook KG, blocks shots like mad (stuffed a Thabeet turnaround) and seems to always be in the right place contributing somehow. Pure fantasy, but holy crap he would have looked good next to Cousins. Honestly, I saw a little Bosh/KG in the kid tonight with his combo of length/athleticism and actual skills (he’s got a legit jumper!). He was patient, skilled and looked every bit an NBA vet out there. He’s going to be a real, real nice player for Milwaukee.
Bummer to see Cousins beasting, though. Total reprise of last year with Curry.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Completely agree
I knew next to nothing about him before tonight and I was thoroughly impressed with just about everything he did on the floor. Was calm, played within himself, and just flat out made good plays- including shooting the lights out
by NuthinBurger on Jul 14, 2010 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I have seen him play twice
and he will be legit. Right place right time and never quits type of guy. I have seen him hit the pull up mid-range jumper, slam it home, weakside block, trailing block, nice passes, etc. Very promising.
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 14, 2010 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
He was unqestionably the best player on the floor
I was blown away by how poised and effective he was. He showed he could post up, hit off the pull up, and catch and shoot all the way out to the NBA 3, all while and contributing on the boards and defensively. I see all those skills translating to the real game no problem given his monstrous length. I can’t comment on his ceiling or what he’ll achieve, but it’s easy to see shades of KG/Bosh on the kid. Skinny as hell, but his jumper is pure and he looked like a vet out there picking his spots and making plays when it counted. To see a young guy with that much talent who’s that poised and confident was what really blew me away. He knew what he was capable of and he went out and did it. He’s my pick for guy that will surprise everyone out of this draft now that I’ve seen him live.
He destroyed Thabeet, too. Stuffed his turnaround J in a 1 on 1 situation. It was awesome. I’m really jealous of the Bucks. He’s going to be great next to Bogut.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I did not
But I’ll watch the replay now that you mentioned it.
Check out my NBA Draft blog:
http://casperkid23.blogspot.com/
I am in the same boat
so i’m gonna stick with, he jacked up a lot of tough shots (finished 8-20) and you could hear him audibly yell “Fuck!” two or three times during the broadcast (temper temper!)….
but in all seriousness he looks like he’s gonna be a pretty dominant player down the road. range of skills- did you see the fast break leading up and under in the air? he made a couple great passes and has quick hands on defense
by NuthinBurger on Jul 14, 2010 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Great Post
I am really looking forward to watching TWolves basketball this season. Not only will the starting lineup be enjoyable, but the reserves are all people I want to see get better as any one of them could be or are part of the long term plan. Last year after that miserable winter stretch, it was a real challenge to watch the games since we knew the team was going to look so different this season. Now that all the moves have taken place, I’m excited for Wolves basketball again. Yes this team can still disappoint and yes this team is likely to lose a lot of games this season, but the lineup you list is at least 2 deep at every position with young players with hopefully their best years in front of them.
I refuse to give kudos to Kahn until any of these transactions turn into wins, as even if I can see the method to his madness, this is a results oriented business. But I am pleased with the roster, and I am excited for Twolves basketball, and that’s all I want from an off-season. Hope springs eternal.
Go Wolves.
I am a kings fan and I was screaming at the tv with joy when I heard Wesley Johnson being taken at 4.
I knew at that moment Cousins was coming to Sac to play with Tyreke. It’s not that Wesley Johnson isn’t good, I just really liked Cousins game and thought he would be a great fit in Sac.
DMC
would have been a great fit with 30 teams in the league… :(
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
except ours of course
cuz he would have just duplicated al jef….. no, we already had a cente….. no, we have darko milicic now! ok i’ll just shut up
by NuthinBurger on Jul 14, 2010 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions
just don't go watch..
….his highlight reel against the lakers. oi. this one’s going to hurt.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
i was making a joke...
(forgot %) but i watched, he looks like he’s gonna be a beast if he can stay on the floor
by NuthinBurger on Jul 14, 2010 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions
I got it..
….and was just building on the “oh crap” aspect of it all.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Portland fan here.
I’ve seen a lot of Wolves fans list Martell as a 3… he’s really not. Prototypical small forward. His handle is really awful, so he can’t create offense out of isolation or the pick and roll. He’s also an inconsistent shooter off screens; he’s really most effective as a cutter and spot-up shooter. He can guard both wing positions fine (albeit inconsistently), but the Portland offense was awful whenever he had any kind of slice of playmaking responsibility.
I don’t think most would disagree with your assessment of Webster’s skillset. Personally, I disagree with the fact that the Wolves Shooting Guard (I think you meant 2 and not 3 by the tone of your post) needs to be a playmaker that can create offense out of isolation and pick and roll.
The wolves definitely need to have people who you can run the offense through, but the fact that Martell isn’t a playmaker doesn’t mean that he can’t be a shooting guard. Martell can guard shooting guards and small forwards effectively and really, positions only matter on the defensive side of the ball.
As long as the Wolves have playmakers and shot creators at other positions to compensate for the fact Martell does not possess such strengths, Martell can play shooting guard. Beasely, Love, and knock on wood Rubio should all be able to handle the ball and facilitate the offense. Martell as a spot up shooter and a cutter can work as a 2 guard in this offense.
I assume
You mean a 2. Though I think that most posters here consider him a three, that’s the case with most wings on this team. The question is which small forward will fit best at the SG position? With all of these wings on the team, I think we’re figuring that he’s going to have to spend some time at the 2 alongside one of Brewer/Hayward/Johnson, depending on who is in the game.
This is also without mentioning that we may try and get Beasley some time at the 3 this year. We are gonna run out some goofy lineups. It’s gonna be interesting.
PF is supposed to be a post position, is it not?
Well, unless we end up with Pekovic and Darko starting, we’ve got to get a better PF. Love is just over 6’8" and Beasely is just under 6’8" – and for those of you haven’t noticed, LOVE HAS NO POST GAME!! He CANNOT be a starter on a contending team! I’m elated for Big Al going to Utah where’s he going to be a great fit and will be a step-up from Boozer. I like the fact that we got more cap flexibility and draft pics, but now we have to capitlize on those assets! We now need a long athletic PF (Whiteside sounds a lot better to me than whatever Hayward is going to bring) and we still need another true two-guard, someone who can create his own shot! But with the roster we’ve assembled thus far, might as well get ready for another chance at lottery luck! Maybe Kahn will actually not screw it up for a change – third time’s a charm!!
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
Yeah, too me, that’s the problem with Love. He’s undersized. And on top of that, he really has no low post game. Basically all he does is drop step, and try to shoot a hook shot over the defender (which is a problem because of his size). Though he does rebound and pass quite well. I’m still not really sold on him being a starter.
by packallday555 on Jul 14, 2010 2:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Why start
the best player on our team?
;)
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
wasn't one of the problems Rambis
had with Love near the end of the year was that he was essentially garnering stats (garbage buckets and rebounds) to the detriment of the team? That’s where stats create a misleading sense of reality. Basketball games are played by people, not numbers.
BTW, I’m not a Love hater. His BBIQ and court vision are amazing. But he’s not a post player.
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 14, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Not a post player yet
You can’t teach someone height, speed, quickness, or any physical attribute, but you can teach them how to post up. Love height is a small issue, there have been dozens of great examples over the years of post players who are not 6’10 but succeeded in the post against taller and bigger competition. He already has a knack for rebounding. Let’s see if he can learn the post before we decide whether or not he’s a post player.
Fair point.
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 14, 2010 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed on his potential to improve in the post
I’ll also add that he’s extremely adept at playing the high post / perimeter as a 4, and he could be a legitimate starter even without improvement in the post. Darko/Pecovich get their points on the interior, and if Love and Beasley share the court at the 4/3 respectively (A great idea imho), whoever is guarded by the opposing 3 will be able to score effectively in the post.
He was padding his rebounding stats?
AWESOME!
I don’t think that hurts a team unless you pull a Ricky Davis. Also, Love’s stats got worse towards the end of the year (he started the season killing it), so I don’t know how much water that holds.
Also, I don’t know what you mean by garbage buckets. It could be argued that about 70% of our points last year were “garbage points.” Care to clarify?
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Floor spacing and team communication issues
Garbage buckets was a poor use of terms, you’re right. But I don’t think he always communicated well -not even verbally but with body language-with the rest of the team in some sets. That could easily have to do with team dysfunction as well.
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 14, 2010 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
After all, you need PFs with post games to win
Dwight Howard and KG are perfect examples of that.
Not sure where you're going with this
Dwight’s a C and last time I checked Orlando had yet to win anything, chiefly because they lack a guy who can reliably get them buckets in the post.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Yeah, making it to the ECFs and Finals in D-Howards case and actually winning it in KG’s case is an indicator of their inability to win.
Well
If he can never bring a championship to his team because of his inability to generate points, then I’d say that’s a perfect example of how it’s an important skill. The issue isn’t so much post scoring as the general ability to create shots when necessary, though.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
You’re right, Josh Smith, KG, Tyrus Thomas, Antawn Jamison, Kenyon Martin, Charlie Villanueva, David Lee, Troy Murphy, Luc Mbah a Moute, Derrick Favors, Anthony Randolph, Rashard Lewis, Jeff Green, Antonio McDyess, and Andray Blatche are living proof that you must have a good post game to be a starting PF in the NBA. Oh, wait.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 14, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
What do all those guys have in common?
Athleticism and/or length! The other biggest weaknesses of Love! I say trade him while he has some value for a younger guy with more upside (Derrick Favors perhaps?) before he pulls a Wally Szczerbiak and signs a big contract only for us to discover he’s already reached his ceiling way short of expectations.
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
Antwan Jamison, Charlie, V, Troy Murphy, Rashard Lewis, and Jeff Green aren’t exactly super athletes or super long. And of course, none of them rebound the ball like Love does. Almost no one does.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Probably the only one comparable to Love is Murphy. Jamison can create off the bounce (or could). Charlie V can create off the bounce, as well as Jeff Green, and so can Rashard Lewis. Love doesn’t have the handle or athletic ability to create his own shot from the wing like most of the guys you listed do.
by packallday555 on Jul 14, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
My main point here is that we need to look at lots of things when figuring out what a player brings to the table. Saying “Love can’t start! He can’t create his own offensive!” is kind of silly to me, because it ignores that he does one tremendously important thing to winning basketball games (rebounding) and is at least halfway decent at everything else. I think we look too long and too hard at PPG and ability to create their own offense, because, for the most part, a balanced, ball movement based offense solves those problems. The scoring load can be divided amongst all players on the floor. Orlando is a great example of a team that lacks an iso scorer, but could compete for (and came within a missed layup at the buzzer of having a good shot at winning) championships. The Kings at the turn of the millenium were another team that came within some bad luck of winning a title without an “alpha to omega” scorer. No one model is a sure thing. You need to collect the best players you can and make the fit work with those very good, but not elite guys, until you track down that elite player.
Elite players aren’t necessarily dominant scorers, either. Dwight Howard counts just as much Dwyane Wade. Teams win in a variety of ways. You need scoring, rebounding, defense and passing to win. How you get them varies a lot.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Webber wasn't an iso scorer?
He was one of the best all-around post-players of his generation. His numbers weren’t mind-blowing because of all the talent around him: Divac, Stojakovic, Turkoglu, etc. He wasn’t an excellent passer (sort of like Darko, haha) but if he needed to score, he could do so.
But I agree that an elite player doesn’t have to be a dominant scorer, but if they aren’t, they need to bring more than just rebounding to the table. Love won’t ever be an elite player because he doesn’t bring much else to the table, specifically no inside scoring and no defense ANYWHERE! He’s a terrible athlete and undersized, making it doubtful that he’s going to improve in either area.
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
WAS an excellent passer, my bad.
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
But all those guys either have tremendous athleticism or tremendous length, Kevin Love has neither. A lot of them are also good enough of the dribble to create their own shot, again Kevin Love is not.
by packallday555 on Jul 14, 2010 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Bottom line is this. For everything he can do and everything he can’t do, you can probably win an NBA championship if Kevin Love is your starting power forward.
*if he’s surrounded by 4 awesome players
by NuthinBurger on Jul 14, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I would bet very good money...
that by the time Kevin Love is 25 he could win a championship while being the 2nd or 3rd best player on his team… Not saying he will, especailly if he stays with the Wolves, but he will be that good.
If your 1st and 2nd best players
are a 20-10 big who can defend and a 20-5-5 wing who can defend….maybe, but I’m sure they’d be happy to have someone else who can contribute more than Love brings.
"Life is hard...it's even harder if you're stupid" - John Wayne
The Blueprint
Great post, S-n-P. Certainly plenty to consider here.
Here are my two central issues.
- If you’re hording a bit of cap space to chase something like an Andre Iguodala, why are you tossing so much cap space around? You use cap space (via Gomes’ contract) to trade for Webster when you know you’re going to draft Johnson. You sign Darko the same day you reach terms with Pekovic. You sign Ridnour (a P&R guard) less than a year after you sign Sessions (a P&R guard) and draft Flynn (a P&R guard). Why, if there were only three serious offers on the table, did Kahn have to trade Al right now? Was Love or Beasley going to self-detonate on August 1 if Al was still in MIN? As you said, this is a 30-win team. (I think it’s more like 25 max, but I’m probably wrong.) Why make a hasty decision in July if there’s truly nothing immediate at stake? Kahn could have had the cap space to land an Iguodala by not paying Darko, Ridnour and Webster. And he’d still have Jefferson as a major trade chip. (He’d be a pretty fantastic chip as all these aging contenders get desperate in January and February, no?)
Meanwhile, the team is paying a head coach pretty good money to run a system which doesn’t fit the current talent or the supposed golden boy sitting in Barcelona for at least one and more likely two more seasons. Rubio in the Triangle? Really?
That’s the Blueprint? Assemble a collection of ill-fitting mid-tier players, playing an ill-fitting system, waiting for a point guard who may never come?
I’ll stick with the avocado.
Some thoughts on this...
I think that Jefferson’s value was probably as high as it was going to get, unless the Wolves specifically tried to highlight his game throughout the year and hope for a big deadline deal. There are several issues with that approach. Jefferson’s game does not fit in the Wolves system, and was seen as the odd man out of the front court rotation. The number 1, paramount goal for the Wolves is to start to solidify their roster and their system… grow into something that has enough upside to convince Rubio to give it a try sooner rather than later. Jefferson, at best, would be coming off the bench… which would be an extremely great role for him… but that wouldn’t highlight his value to a team more than it already is set. Teams know what Jefferson brings, his pluses and his minuses.
Additional to that, waiting to the deadline to trade Jefferson requires the Wolves to gamble. Does Jefferson stay healthy? Does he show that he is back to pre-injury form, or is he less of a player? Could the Wolves move Jefferson’s $13 million a year contract to a contender, and would they get anything back worth taking?
The Wolves are flush, now, with young guys and prospects. They have multiple first round picks floating around, and the rights to Rubio. A deadline deal that moves Al would most likely be for an expiring, a pick, a prospect. Well, we have all those things. Trading Jefferson now, gives us that TPE. With that usable space, the Wolves can look to take on a difference maker on a straight trade without having to juggle the terms of salary balancing. The Wolves even have assets and picks to work with.
The big question is, can Kahn utilize this flexibility to cap what seems to be a very direct plan of building a certain type of team, with depth, options, and no killer contracts on the books at this time.
As for the Triangle, well a lot of Wolves fans are curious to see just how Rambis’ offense is going to work. Will this be a Jackson Triangle? Does Rambis have a variation in mind? What about the statements that it was primarily a teaching tool? I think the vision is a ball movement and motion offense, with outside shooting, inside passing, and slashing abilities. The Wolves, if you count Rubio, have an interesting collection of talents. The defense will be better next year. The outside shooting will be better. Depending on Flynn, the ball movement will be better. The team is faster, more athletic.
The question here is can Rambis coach? We’ll see.
by Krotz the Wall on Jul 14, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Couple notes
I love avocados. Delicious; try this: a bacon, tomato and avocado sandwich on white toast. Yum. Fantastic simple sandwich.
As for Al…well, actually, yes. Waiting would have been a real problem. The idea that later in the summer the offers would have been better is almost certainly erroneous. Teams don’t wait that long; they move on and fill holes. Most significant transactions take place in the first couple of weeks after the moratorium, it’s always that way.
Holding him for the deadline has its own problems. Forces you to play him significant minutes while you really need to be getting on with the team you are trying to build. Also, he might not get better. The question becomes what it is you want from a Jefferson trade.
On the other hand, I do think there has been too much emphasis on collecting essentially average players at reasonable prices (Webster, Pekovic, Sessions, Ridnour(?), which does eat in to the flexibility and might not add up to much as a whole. Systemically, we’ll have to wait and see if the promised running team comes to fruition. They have a few players that theoretically could play that way.
We Are the Washington Generals
by Eric in Madison on Jul 14, 2010 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions
That is a great sandwich
I usually just add avocado to my blt for a BLAT! or a BL T&A.
And yeah, it’s going to come down to what’s done with that space. A platoon of slightly above replacement level players is not going to cut it.
by aarendsvark on Jul 14, 2010 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
A platoon of
above replacement lvl players is not going to win a championship, but it will win games; should be around 40. thats very close to a playoff contender. and certainly much more fun to watch then what he have had the last 3 years.
(by the way i don’t think we will win 40 games this year, but I do think that 30 is not unreasonable.)
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jul 14, 2010 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
perhaps the most important element of the triangle
that Rambis has brought to MN is that it does not require the coach to call plays from the sideline. This allows the players to play the game without constant sniping from the sidelines.
Although other details of the offense may vary between MN and LA, the lack of play calling is something that appears to be important to Rambis.
heh
No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jul 14, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 14, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
If you’re going to kill Kahn for trading Al now, you have to be under the impression his value would have gone up somehow later in the season. Why is that a given?
While I disagree with most of the OP
I agree with him on this point. It’s not a given (obviously), but it’s something that shouldn’t be outside of the realm of reality. I’d say it’s more likely that his value goes up than down at the deadline. Lots of reasons, the mains ones being:
Playing with shooters
Staying healthy dispells many of the injury concerns that teams are reporting about him (which just sounds stupid)
That much less time left on his deal
Contending teams have a better picture of what they need to do to help their own teams and stop their close competition from improving
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
"That much less time left on his deal"
It’ll cost $6M to get there though. Is his value going to rise by more than $6M by the trade deadline?
Most likely not
but he will contribute at least half of that by just playing the game as well. Opens up time, yes, but the asset cost would likely be a recurring value whereas we only have to pay Jefferson $6Mish to get there (i.e. the extra value might net us $2M/yr for 3 years and then we come out ahead by also getting Jefferson’s contribution this year).
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
You're connecting the wrong dots...
In assuming that Rambis’ main influence is Phil Jackson when it’s also Pat Riley and the system he played in as a player. Obviously you don’t read the local papers, because Kahn and Rambis have constantly talked about an uptempo system, not one based on the triangle.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 14, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Mr. Ziller
Thank you for stopping by. I’m sure many of our readers will be over to your place this season to see what could have been with DeMarcus Cousins.
As for your first issue, I think the Wolves are headed down the route of being the landlords of one of the most valuable commodities in the current fiscal climate: cap space. My hope is that they eventually stop the renting and move into a full-time home, but there is nothing wrong with letting other teams drop off an expiring player + a draft pick or two in exchange for a short lease on open cap room. I think this is the direction they are headed until some team decides that it has to unload a big contract and they will be there waiting. I’m not entirely optimistic about their chances on this front, but I do like them a hell of a lot better than if they were to sit around and be used as a stalking horse in free agency…which is exactly what happened this year.
I’m not a fan of the Gomes deal but it did give them one thing that absolutely falls in line with their strategy (and which dovetails with the my last point): It does away with Gomes’ useless $3 mil against the cap over the next 2 years. While the Wolves are currently just renting their cap space, they have until this off season to really put it to use on a permanent player. Next year, Rubio hopefully comes and they have to start dealing with player options. They absolutely need to have as much space as possible this season and the Gomes deal actually helped out a little bit on that front. Now, the counter is that they could have just bought out Gomes and draft the 16th pick, but they determined that Webster was better than whoever they would have chosen and for the next 2-3 years, that’s probably a safe bet.
As for them needing to move Jefferson, it basically comes down to playing time. Jefferson is not in the long term plans of this team. How are they going to showcase the guy for a trade and see what they have with Love as a starter and Beasley off the bench while showcasing a volume scorer? On the surface it seems kind of fuzzy but it’s certainly not crazy once you start to lay out competing courses of action.
That last point is, I think, what Kahn has in his favor. Yeah, it’s fun to make jokes about the guy but he was handed such a bad hand that everything he does has to be weighed against realistic competing plans. Who else are they going to sign as a 7 foot center for $5 mil? Yeah, no other NBA teams were competing for his services but Europe was and the dude had an $11 mil cap hold that needed to be dealt with ASAP before any other moves were made. Ridnour doesn’t make a lick of sense until Sessions…well, I won’t even defend that move. The problem with keeping Al is that the only reason a team like Philly is going to move someone like Iggy is for the cap relief. Jefferson for Iggy does nothing for Philly wanting to dump salary. It does nothing for Atlanta wanting to cut cap space in the wake of the Johnson signing. The only way the Wolves are going to capitalize on this sort of transaction is if they can make a lopsided trade, and that is exactly what they set themselves up for yesterday. Yes, there is nothing immediate at stake but yesterday’s actions should be viewed as nothing more than part 1 of a non-simultaneous trade.
As for the Triangle bit, I think that’s been overblown. They are not running what you see in LA. They are running a one guard front that has elements of the Triangle but is geared primarily for a high-usage point guard who can penetrate and who can get out in the fast break. The way their plays were set up last year weren’t strict isolation sets for wing players like you saw with Jackson when he coached Jordan and like he does now with Kobe; rather, they depend on athletic wings going hard to the basket and being able to hit 3 pointers. They are tailoring this offense to Rubio’s game and they are going to surround him with long athletes who can shoot, slash, rebound, defend, and run the hell out of the fast break. I have said it for months now: this guy is COMPLETELY all in on Rubio, from the offense to the game plan to the draft to whatever. It’s a HUGE risk and it may not pay off. The cap space bet on a salary dump is a huge risk that may not pay off.
Here’s the thing that has impressed me most about Kahn so far: Yeah, he’s kind of a used car salesman and he’s condescending as hell to most people, but this is his only shot he’s ever going to get and he’s smart enough to know that. Tony Ronzone was brought in to work the phones, give help with EL scouting, and player selection. We’ll see more moves over the summer. The guy is realistic about his weaknesses and he’s made adjustments after last year’s questionable draft and free agent signing (Hollins). If it were just him making decisions at this point, I’d be horrified, as I don’t think he has the first clue about personnel decisions in the NBA. Zero clue. However, the more I hear about how Ronzone is able to work his way in to the organization, and the more I hear about how Rambis has influenced the process, the better I feel about there at least being something that the Wolves fans haven’t really ever had: a non dictatorial front office decision making process. The McHale model changed a bit near the end to allow in Stack, Babcock, and Hoiberg, but it was still pretty static and one guy uber alles. Kahn calls the shots (and honestly, that still sort of scares me), but there are clear grown ups in the room now and I think you saw that with the 2nd round and the focus on European players, as well as Rambis’ input on the Webster deal.
Thanks again for the input. I hope what I wrote up top didn’t seem like a cheap shot. StR is a daily stop for me and it will be even more so now that you guys have what should be ours: 82 games of watching DMC.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jul 14, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Awesome
absolutely awesome. Stuff like this is why you should be writing for the Wolves somewhere. Some local news station should absolutely be recruiting you to run their blog or write for their newspaper (or internet news source). Or the Wolves should somehow try to recrute you to work directly with their site in a “new age” nba affiliated blog.
This site drums up as much interest in the team as… well… the team. Not that it generates fans, but it hooks the fans and keeps them. Somehow someone in MN should be doing all they can to keep you from going all Thunder on us. It’s been said a few times, but you are right up there with Britt, but to make this appropriate, you are like the productive guy on a rookie contract. Why don’t you get paid (more) for this?
Anyways, I’m enjoying the old CH feel that has been popping up on the front page recently. More well thought out, mostly unbiased analysis through statistics and fact, than angry, illogical rants about David Kahn and how he signed someone who should never play basketball again to a $20M deal. It’s especially refreshing considering the rube-esque turn lately in many comment sections. More name calling in the past two days than I think I have seen on here (even with CW and Roundhouse) in the past year. And I’m not trying to be some kiss-ass as I think most regulars here know that I am apt to disagree with many people on many things, but credit where credit is due. And you sir, deserve much credit. Keep it up!
Also, I know your time is not limitless, but any chance that we will be seeing a Luke Ridnour v. Ramon Sessions comp in the near future if the deal goes through? Also, what ever happened to that How-to, Statistics article?
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10
Thanks. We'll see..
…about the Ridnour post. I just started a kitchen renovation project this morning and my main writing times are pre 6 am and post 9 pm so I’m not sure how that will work out now that I’ll be knee deep in putting together cabinetry, installing a new floor, painting, etc. If I’m good at kitchen work, there will be more content. If I suck…well, I may not be writing much for a month or so ;)
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
2 cents regarding Ridnour v Sessions
I remember a time not too long ago when most of us were clamoring about how great the Sessions deal was at the time. My modest view of the market interpreted that the free agent dollars were drying up and Kahn swooped in at the end of the period and snagged Ramon at a below-market rate. Along with your keen eye for statistical rhetoric, I would like to see this angle worked into your analysis, SnP. And an update on what kind of deals these two might expect if they were on the market head-to-head today.
Is it fair to say...
the narrative about the Wolves and David Kahn is starting to turn a corner?
Can I take partial credit for this positive vibe with my recent appreciation of the moves made?
I’m glad to see a more long term view of things being taken over the past few days. Each move viewed individually seems idiotic at worst and risky at best, but when combing all the pieces, a more clear picture starts to form. I’m not saying everything will be strawberries and roses here, but one would have to be pretty biased to say that the roster doesn’t make more sense today than at the same date last year.
There might still be hope for us after all…
by Minneapleseed on Jul 14, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
The Triangle
People are too fixated on it. Yes, I think we’ll use a variation of it during half court sets when we can’t run, but really I think Rambis wants a more “Showtime” feel. You get that with athletic players that can run the floor and penetrate and dish, then play transition defense. You’re right. They have us all in on Rubio.
I agree that Kahn making all the decisions on personal is bad, because he doesn’t appear to be a good judge of talent. But the help is here and it shows. I realize so many people wanted Cousins, but I really think we’re going to look back on this and see that we scored a gem with Wes. I do think Cousins will turn out to be a perennial All-Star caliber player, but I also think that Wes has a shot to be an All-Star a few times in his career.
I know a lot of people are sitting around and looking at these moves and saying “where’s the star?”. There won’t be one this year, but (depending on the CBA) there could be one next year in Rubio. There are sometimes in drafts you just get lucky, like when we took Garnett or when SA got Tony Parker at the end of the first round or Dwayne Wade is the 5th pic. I think Kahn and Co. believe that’s the case here.
Rubio fell into our lap, and we’re going to do our best to keep him here.
I wish I had read this in the first place.
I would have just said this.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Always appreciate your insight
1. I tend to think the Darko contract really isn’t that bad. When you consider the Petro or Amir Johnson contract. Darko might just be a generic back-up center to coin the John Hollinger description. At the same time- Darko’s got limited enough skills to play a 15-20 minute a night role. He’s not Dasanga Diop.
2. I tend to be of the mindset that Webster is the planned starter at the 2 where as Wes is the planned starter at the 3. I don’t think there is a contradiction here. The problem is both have limited play-making and shot-creation skills. I think the feeling was Webster could be an adequate starter and when comparing his minutes to Sasha’s (He’ll look like Brandon Roy)
3. The fear with Jefferson is being on the hook with his contract. He could blow up- but in all reality- he’s probably going to be the same player he’s always been- High Volume Scorer- Medium Efficiency- Good Rebounder- Poor Defender. In reality the additions of Micheal Beasley and Nikola Pekovic should be able to off-set his scoring loss.
4. I’m not a Ridnour fan. My only guess is they feel he’d work better off the ball than Sessions, low turnovers, provide veteran leadership at the 1, and shoot a bit better. I tend to think Ridnour’s shooting numbers were inflated last year. I do see him as a Low Warp player for at least the next 2 years. Which considering the previous state of the Wolves PG play is a small improvement.
I think they’re setting up for Rubio by assembling a collection of wings that will assure him to be Ball-Dominant. The bright side of this should be players that can move well without the ball thereby hopefully creation opportunities. The whole triangle thing is overblown. This isn’t what the Lakers do when they run heavy isos for Kobe. My guess is they’re put together an offense that incorporates elements of the Triangle that meshes with Rubio’s skill.
Jose, good post
I agree, I don’t think we’re looking at a pureTex Triangle, I think we’re going to get a mix of showtime Lakers with half court sets based off the Triangle, but the difference will be that instead of a wing being the dominant creator, it will be Rubio.
I agree on Ridnour. That’s the signing/transaction that I least like the summer. Seems like he’s not a better player than what we have now. If he had the same skillset but was a lights-out proven 3 point shooter, I’d be fine, but his career statistics indicate that he’ll be a good enough shooter but not a great one.
I think
that Luke is about aquireing an other asset for free. we have a deal in place with Charlotte for Sessions as long as Charlotte can’t get a FA point. We have a deal in place with Luke if we do infact trade Sessions. Ridnour seems to be about the same (albiet, older) player as sessions and will cost the same in salerie per year. so in essence, if all goes through, we are getting an asset from Charlotte for absolutely nothing. this is the value hunting that Kahn does over and over, get an asset, that costs nothing.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jul 14, 2010 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions
great post
And a great reminder of Kahn’s “moving goalpost syndrome.” My new nickname for him is the Wonder Twin: “Form of…extra cap space! Shape of…Luke Ridnour!”
(Yes, but who then is Gleek? Requires more thought.)
"Can someone please help me out, who did wolves pick, doesnt look too positive around here"
by Rasho Revolution on Jul 14, 2010 10:51 AM CDT reply actions
+1
Patient: Well, doc whats the prognosses?
Doc: not good son, you’ve got MGS.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jul 14, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Baselines
I agree with a lot of what SnP says in this post. Kahn badly mismanaged the draft (I think that’s going to become painfully clear when DMC is worlds better than Wes this year), but his post-draft moves have been more of a mixed bag (I really like the Beasley and Al moves, less happy with Ridnour/Darko).
At the same time though, I think people give Kahn too much credit based on the state of this roster vis-a-vis last year’s roster. There is no doubt that the current roster is better than last year’s roster (hard not to be the case when last year’s roster won 15 games), but it’s important to recognize that we wouldn’t have had last year’s roster no matter who had been GM.
We are not evaluating Kahn vis-a-vis last year’s roster. We are evaluating him in comparison to what some hypothetical GM could have done with the same assets (3 first-round picks, gobs of cap space, etc.). That’s the rub here—it’s not an impressive feat to take three first-round picks and a bunch of cap space and improve a 15 win club. The question is how optimal the roster construction was given the assets at our disposal—and that’s really where the draft becomes a critical issue (the best and most obvious tool for improvement for a small market franchise). If Kahn has again made the wrong pick so high in the draft, it’s going to be hard to make up for that value difference through his other post-draft moves in comparison to a hypothetical GM who made the correct selection (Cousins over Wes).
Once again -
Kahn looks bad – IF Cousins outplays Wes next year. What about the year after that and after that? Just like Flynn is a bust this year because he didn’t play as well as Curry this past year (not necessarily). I’ll grade this draft after four years to see how it all pans out. One year does not a career make.
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Jul 14, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Guess what?
Cousins IS going to outplay Wes next year. Cousins is playing within a system that will work to his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. They traded players in front of him. They have the returning ROY at point. They have a dynamite fan base.
Cousins basically gets to hover around the paint and rack of a strong PER. Bigs get this privilege. Wes will have to work 10 times harder than Cousins to come out ahead in a head to head contest.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Jul 14, 2010 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
I totally agree with this
If Cousins isn’t a 17-10 guy this year, he has only himself to blame. He’s set up in a perfect situation for a rookie big guy. You have a dynamic, slashing point guard, and he’ll be the second scoring post option, so there’s not much pressure and he’ll get a ton of putbacks, dunks, and easy transition looks.
Wes is going to be on a team where he will be one of the main guys expected to score, within the offense, right out of the chute. He’s got more pressure on him, both from the organization and the fan base. If he puts up a 13-5-5 year under these circumstances, that’s going to be just wonderful. He’ll get panned by people for doing it, but given the circumstances I think that’s be a great rookie campaign.
agreed
but cousins also has a lot of bigs to compete with on his team, and he has some conditioning issues. i think cousins season will depend heavily on MPGs
by NuthinBurger on Jul 14, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Have we signed Ridnour?
I agree with Jose and badpoet about Ridnour.
I also thing right now PG is our weakest area. Knowing that Rubio will be coming is there anyone else out there that we can sign to upgrade at that position?
The reson the Wolves were so bad in the past was really from losing all those draft picks from the Joe Smith debacle. We never had any assests besides Garnett because we couldn’t draft them.
This year they have an exciting team and Beasley is definately more exciting than Big Al.
WELL DONE!!
This is about the most complete picture painted yet. I have scratched my head at the way Kahn has drafted these past two years (and that’s why he has such a bad rep) but the actual moves he has made outside of the draft IMO can’t be looked at as anything other than a job well done. Great write up.
I for one will be curious to see how Big Al does when healthy again and playing with a top notch PG in Williams.
If Utah surrounds him with shooters he could be a 25 pt and 12 rebound guy. We will be saying, why can’t we ever get guys like that…. like Ray Allen, like Chauncey Billups … and the list goes on….
by Kevin Love Jefferson on Jul 14, 2010 6:11 PM CDT reply actions
I'm curious to see Al J does on a fast pace team where Deron Williams has the ball in his hands and he can't take 10 seconds to make a move.
But I think it’s a move that people will kill Kahn for in the long term. The big thing, SnP as you say, is that Kahn doesn’t seem to maximize his draft assets by taking the BPA every pick he can. Or, at least the Best Player within the schematic anyway. (Best player has many meanings IMO. This is what I have learned following Geoff Petrie. And, as some already know here, not the biggest DMC fan. I’m a fan of his talent, but his red flags are real and many of them have yet to be touched upon. I’m also not sure he’s the best player to pair with Beasley, Love, and Pek. But that’s me. The problem as I see it was that the Wolves roster would have to undergo another philosophy—as SnP noted— to accomodate Cuz. If Wolves fans are tolerant of that because DMC was the BPA, then I can understand. If not, well, okey doke then. I will note that I think Curry & DMC would have been a brilliant pairing. I certainly have no argument with that.
Having said that, I’ll note that I think one reason the Kings can absorb DMC is that he simply won’t stick out in Sac. The fans already love him, and his personality is one that the fans there will go nuts over. Not every fanbase would have felt that way IMO. Plus, the Kings FO has been together forever with over 15 years of experience together as an unit. They have not picked the BPA every time either. The only reason Kings fans give GP the benefit of the doubt is because of the body of work and the success of Kings teams earlier in the decade.)
Either way, I think this Al J deal will prove to be useful for Kahn (or another GM with a better feel for talent) with the asset’s that Utah gave up. The fact is that the Wolves didn’t have enough cap space to be real players this summer,and a big problem was the signings of Hollins and Sessions along with the money Jefferson was making. Kahn didn’t inherit greatness in 2009 as it was and it was even more difficult without a Head Coach at the time.
I really agree that outsiders don’t really get the direction of this roster either. Al Jefferson may be a 20 & 10 guy, but in my view it comes at the expense of other Wolves players and therefore doesn’t have that level of value you could associate with, say, Tim Duncan. (Bad example, but there are limited examples here. Humor me.) Anyway, the flaws of Kahn are well noted and talked about here, but not necessarily elsewhere. The worm of the Wolves apple will begin and end (and everything else) with Glen Taylor. The question is could a good GM be successful here? It’s tough to say.
Looking back at this, it’s hard to say whether the glass is half full or half empty. But I do think the Wolves are set up to take a talent like DMC in the future now than they were this time around. Hopefully, for Wolves fans, that’s the case moving forward. Enjoyed the writeup SnP.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985......
Maybe we should adjust our stats to per36 years of age? -- ElRonToro
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Not feeling the Kahn argument... at all.
Here’s my take http://sportscasualties.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/what-the-hell-david-kahn/
via Sports Casualties.
I’m a T-Wolves outsider, so maybe I’m missing something. But from the South, this whole experiment just looks like one massive cluster****. I hope the Kahn era ends soon so you all can get started on picking up the pieces.
Best of luck going forward.
Robbie
I don't know
if you were expecting a nice kudos for that article by posting it here, but that was one of the worst of all of the bad articles I have read so far about David Kahn.
It’s not so much that you’re ripping on the guy, it’s that you have to lie about half of your “facts” to come up with enough reasons to rip on him. This is embarassing and I now refuse to read anything you ever write again more than just to post comments on it about how awful it is so your other readers can know.
Truly, truly awful. For someone who has a chance to make a difference, you owe it to people to do your job better. This was trash. And the worst part is, all you had to do was copy and paste about 5 different massively incorrect articles together (which I’m sure you didn’t do… but you obviously read those articles and then paraphrased). Awful.
Good luck in the future.
Rudy Gay: Feeding his family since 7/1/10

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