Kahn is a Moron?
by NYCVike on Jul 2, 2010 12:56 PM CDT
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PrintOk Kahn haters. Its time to face the facts. There has been much negativity on this site about Kahn and this team, and I personally think its because of all the hate from guys like Woj, Simmons and Ford about the Wolves. Take a close look and see when all the super-hate began. People weren't so down on Kahn until that Woj article came out 2 days before the draft. People were skeptical but the outright hate happened after that article.
Kahn's biggest decisions:
Trading Foye/Miller for Ricky Rubio
Drafting Jonny Flynn over Steph Curry
Hiring Kurt Rambis
Drafting Wes Johnson over DMC
Trading for Martell Webster
Signing Darko Milicic
These are the biggest and/or most controversial decisions Kahn has made. I'm going to break down each one and give it a +5 to -5 rating for the team. Also pointing out how much is actual and how much is speculative.
Actual:
Foye/Miller for Ricky Rubio (+5): I don't see how anyone can say this is anything but a great trade. I could have put this one in speculative because we haven't seen Rubio play, but realistically Rubio will be the face of our franchise unless he truly sucks in the NBA. Getting the face of the franchise for a draft disappointment and a guy who was trade filler the year before is nothing short of fantastic.
Drafting Jonny Flynn over Steph Curry: (-2) Some will argue about my rating, but I think its conservatively low. Steph Curry looks to be an all star for a while and because Jonny Flynn struggled everyone thinks he sucks. The truth is I think Flynn will end up being bettter than Jennings or Ty Lawson once he knows how to play on this team. Will he ever be better than Curry? Probably not, and if he is it will be because his defense becomes better than Curry. I think this will eventually be seen as a good #6 pick and that Curry surprised. Keep in mind a lot of GMs weren't sold on Curry. He's skinny and his PG game was highly questioned. I don't think you can rip Kahn for this. I really don't.
Signing Darko Milicic: (+1) Again I think conservatively low. Darko looked like the only big man who could play in Rambis' offense last year. I watched almost all of the games he played and he was the only front court defender we had, and he put up some nice numbers in later games in both scoring, rebounding and assists even though he was terribly out of shape. I've said before I think Darko will be one of the great coups of trading and look for him to win the most improved player award this coming season. Oh, and Kahn? Got him for a steal at 5mil a year for 4 years. This guy is going to surpass his contract number.
Hiring Kurt Rambis: (+3) I know some on this site have flamed Rambis because the team looked ugly last year, but he was an amazing hire. To get a guy who has a pedigree with the Lakers, has some head coaching experience, and has a clear vision for the future is amazing for this franchise. I am a big Rambis fan, and I think he'll be the best coach we've ever had once his guys "get it". If you need any more convincing of Rambis being good I offer this. Coaches are largely measured by how their players respect them. The fact that Rubio met Rambis once as is on record saying that he can envision playing for him is a huge endorsement. Rubio seems mercurial and one to speak his mind. He means this statement. A great hire for Kahn.
Speculative:
Drafting Wes Johnson over DMC: ( 0 ) Lots of people on this site wanted Khan's head for not drafting DMC. DMC should be a good player and may be a great player in this league. Sacremento will soon find out just how far he has to go to become a man, but he should put up good numbers. Let's be clear. He didn't fit on this Wolves team. He would NEVER have lived up to his potential on this team because he is an Al Jefferson in that he's the offensive black hole. Feed it to him inside all day and he'll get you 30 a game, but he's not going to make his teammates better. Wes Johnson is a terrifically talented 3 and fits perfectly for us. You wanna argue ceiling? Fine. The truth is no one knows cause neither guy has played in the NBA thus this was a neutral 0. Reserve your judgment until we've seen these guys play. All Kahn did was draft the best player for the Wolves without trading his pick. You can't rip him for this.
Trading for Martell Webster: ( 0 ) The overall consensus was that the Wolves overpaid on this trade. As we all learned that Gomes' contract was worth less than we thought, this trade looks more like a push with a lean in our favor because Webster is such a good fit for us. Webster is an above average defender and a deep 3 point shooter who runs the floor very well. He can play the 2 or 3 probably seeing most minutes at 2. The only way we lose this trade is if Babbitt becomes a star. I really think he'll be Mike Miller most likely. A guy who can shoot and rebound ok, but will never be star material. Webster has some good upside due to his not playing in a system that fit him. As far as Kahn goes, this gets a 0 again because it seems fair right now and we can judge him once these guys start playing.
So, the way I see it, averaged out Kahn get slightly over a +1 per move. Hardly a shabby record for a new GM. Realistically he's gonna need 3-5 years before we can say anything about the guy's performance. This hate is totally unfounded. At worst he's an average GM. Don't be so weak as to let these media pundits sway your emotions. The Wolves are our team and giving up on them won't make the hurt go away. Things actually look pretty bright for the future. I'm sure there will be some haters replying to this and I welcome it, but I am confident that this team is on the upswing.
Side note: Obviously trading Al isn't on this list and will be a big move for Kahn when it happens. Can't judge what hasn't happened yet. Also if people want to rip him for signing Ryan Hollins, all I can say is "really?" The guy hasn't played great but was too low risk to even worry about in this post.
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Is it too much to ask for people on this board
to spell the man’s name correctly?
Solid post and agree with much of it. But he’s been GM for over a year now and this is a blog dedicated to the T’Wolves.
It’s K-A-H-N.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
The "facts" are not currently in Kahn's favor
since:
1. Ricky Rubio does not currently play for the Wolves
2. Kurt Rambis’ record as a head coach of the Wolves is 15-67
3. The team was 2-29 with Darko as their center, and I’m interested in finding other sources who think getting Darko for the amount that he was signed for is “a steal.”
The rest is hope and speculation.
I don’t even think the gap between Flynn and Curry is as great as others do, and I don’t think it will matter if/when Rubio comes over. And I’m certainly willing to credit Kahn if he can get rid of Al’s contract and get back something of value.
But other than Rubio’s rights falling to the Wolves, the greatest achievement in Kahn’s tenure so far is NOT being able to sign Rudy Gay, after publicly targeting him and Lee, two players who are perfectly redundant to players already on the roster at wildly reduced cost compared to what Gay and Lee will get in free agency.
Based on the facts, Kahn may not be a “moron,” but there is no evidence that he knows what he’s doing.
by PoorDick on Jul 2, 2010 1:10 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Well to Kahn's credit
he traded to get the #5 pick and was very high on both Rubio and Evans, so unless Thabeet or Harden dropped, he put us in a position to get either Rubio or Evans.
And if you listen to Kahn he says Sacramento was close to drafting Flynn at 4 instead of Evans. I’m not sure I buy that, but if that would have somehow happened, we would have been in position to draft both Evans and Rubio.
So yes it’s true Rubio fell in our laps, but we were only in this position because Kahn made a great trade. Now if only he can do all his trades with Grunfeld.
Oh, and you forgot what I think is Kahn's
biggest tangible accomplishment so far: Signing Pek to an extremely reasonable deal.
yukk
he’s a ball player , he should be able to do better than that
What did the 5 fingers say to the face?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7CBwX1891A
HaHaHaHa!
by Lord Smackington on Jul 3, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Now Wait a Minute.....
You’re being way too honest about our team, you can’t talk about reality, you gotta pretend we’ve got a good gm, and that Darko is the European KG, and Webster is about to be an allstar, can’t you see Kahn is on to something.
by TheGreat on Jul 2, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Re: Webster Trade
“The only way we lose this trade is if Babbitt becomes a star.”
I’ve heard this sentiment expressed elsewhere, and I really think you’re setting a high bar for “losing” this trade.
The problem with Webster is that we overpaid on a known mediocrity. Babbitt (or Anderson, if that’s who you think was the BPA) doesn’t have to become a star for the Wolves to lose that trade. He (again, or Anderson) simply has to provide more value than Webster over the next four years. Whoever the Wolves picked with the 16 will be cheaper and younger over the next four seasons, and it’s not terribly far fetched to suggest that either Babbitt or Anderson could become just as good or better than Webster by year 3 or 4 in the deal. If that happens, the Wolves got poor value out of the 16, and in my book, that’s losing a trade.
As for the negativity you’re perceiving, I guess it really is in the eye of the beholder. The last few days, I feel like this place has been bursting with unjustified homerism. I guess we’ll see how it pans out, but I’m not optimistic about where I think this team will be sitting in 2-3 years.
If you're referring to all the talk about Gay and Love
I think you mean “unjustified homoeroticism.”
Haha
Hey, If people around here need to sublimate their angst about Kahn/the Wolves direction into homoerotic puns, so be it.
I think Anderson > Webster > Babbit
Specifically because Babbit has shown no ability to defend while anderson is so athletic that he can develop in that area while being a cheap assett.z
That Webster is a "known mediocrity"...
… is a bit harsh. I would argue that he played an important part on a very good team. His numbers aren’t that great, but he’s made some big plays for Portland when it counted. Obviously, evaluating the Babbitt (or Anderson) and Webster swap is all speculation right now. But who is to say there isn’t untapped game in Webster still? Without actually seeing these players play in their new uniforms, it’ll always be a glass half empty or glass half full situation.
Lols just chill.
The thing I dislike most about your post
is the fact that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must have been influenced by evil, unfair, and unenlightened columnists.
I never meant to say
that ALL people who disagree with me are influenced by columnists. I am trying to make a point that many people are influenced however, and that we should let our team’s play determine how good we and our GM are. And to those who would point out how bad we were last year I say that Rambis and others are on record as saying last year was a business year, not a building the team year.
I understand your point
Firstly, thanks for the post. Frankly, everyone who posts has a point of view that they are trying to express interest in.
One thing everyone agrees on. The Wolves need to improve quickly, we have great and passionate fans and they deserve better.
So perhaps they can refund the $$ we paid on our season tickets
And to those who would point out how bad we were last year I say that Rambis and others are on record as saying last year was a business year, not a building the team year.
Kahn Has a Top Secret Plan that even he doesn't know about
by Son of Gerald Green on Jul 2, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Pfft.
They obviously got to you already.
foobee and KLJ will be by your place to pick you up in a van, and take you to the Deprogramming Center.
Fantastic Post!
Very refreshing and honest. I think alot of people here are still caught up with emotions over Demarcus Cousins. I continue to say Cousins didn’t pass the eye test. I looked back at the videos of him freaking out on Calliparri. Storming and swearing to the bench like an even more fat and tall big baby. Then I pictured the day that person would receive his first multi million dollar contract. I do not want that 19 yr old person on this team!
by Chad Bird on Jul 2, 2010 2:38 PM CDT reply actions
Thanks Chad Bird
I think Cousins is a bit of a time bomb. He might be great this year maybe next year, but at some point he will implode. If he imploded on this team it would destory our rebuilding process. That’s why Wes was the right pick. Wes will only help our team.
The hate on this board is because of Simmons and Woj?
That’s what you start off with?
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
You need to at least admit that for a majority of the casual fan base a lot of negativity towards the wolves is linked to them.
Those who know the team well probably are more positive than negative.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 2, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Fine..
….but that’s not what was said. He’s saying this site is negative because of guys like Simmons and Woj and then pins it on an article I think most everyone here on the site thought was a joke. That’s leading with the chin as far as I’m concerned.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Might be leading with the chin
but his assertion about the negativity around here is a right hook to the jaw of all the Kahn haters around here the last couple months.
Let me clarify something as well
I think it is wrong to blame the national media for what happened to this site over the last month. The blame frankly falls on SNP. You have a lot of respect from people who follow this blog, and for some reason between the lottery and draft you were able to create a froth the Kahn was an incompetent moron if he didn’t take Cousins with the FOURTH pick in the draft. The reason I cap the “fourth” is that people decided based largely on your comments (IMO) that Cousins is the second coming of Shaq/Mourning, and the Wolves just took Laettner.
I understand the guy currently in charge gets the blame (see Obama unfairly getting blamed for Afghanistan, economy, and oil spill…FWIW, I’ve never been an Obama fan but can’t blame him for these issues), but Kahn has made more good moves than bad moves, though I will concede the Flynn over Curry pick is a big mistake…hoping Rubio balances the equation. Don’t know if you are a Twin’s fan, but the Delmon Young trade looked awful a year ago, and now appears to be a semi-fair trade that filled needs for each team. Let’s give Kahn some time to prove he is a moron.
Kahn has no one to blame but himself
Every time he opens his mouth, I like him less.
First off – many of us follow the team not just for the virtual GM piece, but because we like watching basketball games and following our hometown (including former and adopted) team. The on the court product was a disaster this year. They didn’t man the wings adequately, which could be seen last summer, and trotted out guys like Hollins and Jawai. If you are going to put your fans through that, there had better be a payoff.
Which Kahn promised. He has talked about making moves and having the roster look different going into next year (I know I have heard the interviews, but too lazy to look up the mp3 or writeup links right now). The implication was something more dramatic than getting Wes and trading for Webster.
The upside with the team is probably respectable, conservative roster moves (which we have seen) and betting on Rambis being a great coach and coaching up the players. That’s ok.
But Kahn needs to step away from the microphone. Let Rambis talk about hoops, and we’ll be better able to take the moves at face value.
He definitely says too much..
….on too many occasions. Each time I have heard him talk to a group of season ticket holders I’m wondering where his handler is. From his statement about 5 big opportunities (we’re done with 4 of them) to his comment about this year’s draft being a 3 player affair on the day before they got the 4th pick, he’s put his foot in his mouth quite a bit. That being said, the transparency (when he’s not just saying things that I think he thinks the person/group in front of him wants to hear) is kind of refreshing compared to, say, the way Brad Childress and the Vikings go about their business by acting like everything they do is a state secret.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
those who agree with me are smarter than those that don't
Kahn Has a Top Secret Plan that even he doesn't know about
by Son of Gerald Green on Jul 2, 2010 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions
That is what I start off with because...
I think people get embarrassed by well known columnists talking about how shitty their team is. A sports team represents its fans. Its human nature somewhat to buy into what these well known people say because they’re supposed to be experts. I don’t like seeing national attention towards us manipulated so that we’re the laughing stock. What’s worse is when our own fans buy into it. So what if Simmons and Woj think our FO and team suck? They have a million opinions a day and they’re seldom more than half right.
But that just makes it seem...
…like you haven’t read the site. You’re starting off with something that isn’t really what anyone here is saying/siding with.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I understand
the frustration people on the site have. We’ve been a dog team for 6 years. We do indeed have some very savvy posters here and perhaps my lead in was a bit strong as far as painting some people into that corner. I guess my real point is to shy away from some of the media’s tendency to make the Wolves into their whipping boy. Negativity breeds negativity and I just feel like Woj/Simmons/Ford are helping Wolves-hate gain steam. We have enough trouble with Souhan/Powers/Reusse already.
I agree...
….that the national media does seem to think of Kahn as something of a whipping boy and that there are a few narratives that have really taken hold that are pretty unfair
http://www.canishoopus.com/2010/7/1/1548659/darko-and-more
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
We have got some savvy commenters
and I doubt seriously that any they are going to be overwhelmingly influenced by one or a couple sports writers. If they are like me, I can’t wait to prove the cynical writers wrong.
Not influenced but effected.
The negative exposure does not convilude my opinon of the T’wolves but it pisses me off to see basing session after basing session directed towards them/Kahn.
by Chad Bird on Jul 2, 2010 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I like this post
I think the media needs a team to pick on.It makes their jobs easier instead of doing actual journalism. when I see the bucks give Drew Gooden a 5 year $32 million. Amir Johnson’s who averaged just 6.2 points and 4.8 rebounds a game last year for Raptors got a five-year, $34 million deal. The wost deal of all is paying Joe Johnson the same as you would LBJ. I looked everywhere for the outrage about this deals. I could not find it anywhere. We got the best center in Europe for back up money. a out of shape Darko got 11 and 6 while he was with the wolves. He only got 20 Million. To me Darko will always get hated on because of who was in that draft. Nobody cares about Michael olowokandi being a bust because that draft was weak.
by chuckd@79 on Jul 2, 2010 3:45 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Thank you Chuck
When they all want to rip on Darko’s contract and then you see some of the 30-40 million dollar contracts being shelled out without the media batting an eye, you know there’s Wolves prejudice.
Re: Flynn
The problem is that it wasn’t just Flynn vs. Curry. I can almost see that reasoning, even if I don’t agree with it. The Wolves we’re still haunted by the Foye experiment and couldn’t afford to wind up with a tweener. If there was equal value available I could see them make a “safer” pick. Kahn certainly wasn’t the only one to question Curry as a PG. However, taking Curry off the table, why Flynn? It’s not that a PG is out of the question after picking Rubio, but why on earth Flynn. And this is not revisionism. If you want a guy to come in and run the team right now, and aren’t deterred by short stature, why would you take Flynn over Lawson or Collison? No one would have blinked an eye if Holiday had gone in the lottery based on upside, length and defensive skill. Flynn was neither a safe pick or a swing for the fences. He had neither the college performance or the physical promise to project for better things. He wasn’t the fastest player or the best at any aspect of the PG position. It made no sense.
I’m sure he will improve over his performance this past year, but will he ever be a top 5 at his position from this draft class? I can’t believe he will.
There's no telling with Flynn
I really hope he turns out. The guy is athletic, can shoot, and is able to drive the basket. I watched a lot of Wolves games last year and he showed some real promise in some of them. In others he may have single handedly lost the game with TOs and bad driving decisions. I’m hopeful that he’ll figure it out.
"Kahn Haters"
There is a lot of talk about all the “Kahn Haters.” Personally I’m continually surprised by the amount of people on this board that still support David Kahn. He just seems so terrible at his job.
Talking myself into DeMarcus Cousins since 5/18/10
Best move by Kahn? Fired McHale!
And the Miller/Foye trade also benefited us because we didn’t have to tank games because we naturally sucked. So Wes Johnson is a Wolf because of that trade.
As someone who gets lumped in...
With Kahn’s ardent supporters even though I’m just giving him a bit more time, I think the argument is partially related to the baseball analogy brought up in other posts on this site. Some would call the Darko contract a “single”; others would call it “booting a routine fly ball that leads to an inside-the-park grand slam.” And there are people in between. I think at least some of the posters against Kahn are critical of him because they think this franchise needs a few “home runs” to get to playoff-caliber and that “singles” or even “doubles” aren’t going to get them there.
To me, the guy probably gets more credit and blame than he deserves. There have always been whispers that Rob Moor (Taylor’s son-in-law) is really in charge of this team, which could mean he has some say in who the team picks and might also impact who they took in the draft. Also, the Bjelica and Prestes picks were solely attributed to Ronzone and Philo (positively) and the first-round moves were placed at the feet of Kahn (negatively). Rambis probably had some say in last year’s deadline inactivity, in the draft, and in bringing back Darko, but that doesn’t fit the narrative that’s been established. This team is more talented today than it was 3 years ago and more capable of playing this system than they were last season. The challenge, though, is maximizing assets, and ultimately, that’s going to come down to whether guys like Johnson, Webster, and Darko increase their value through playing time and playing in an accommodating system. It currently looks bad because the team sucked last year and it seems like they’re not maximizing their assets, so something is riding on Rambis as well. Beyond that, it needs to be determined whether the buzz being generated by Kahn, negative or not, is beneficial for the team. Either way, the guy was given a three-year deal by an owner who let the last guy overstay his welcome, so the time to really evaluate his work will be halfway through the 2011-12 season. Some may not want to wait that long, and that’s fine, but I think Taylor’s dismissal of Saunders and Casey ultimately set this team’s success back as much as McHale’s moves did, and I’d hate to see the team switch courses every other year when that can lead to panic moves and unnecessarily mortgaging the future for the present.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 3, 2010 11:50 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Very good points put well.
1. Switching courses Unless there’s a “win now” stamp on the offer letter, a new GM is less likely to make panic moves and mortgage the future than one whose contract is up for renewal. That’s one fear I have for Kahn’s tenure—if he can’t get a Star, and/or Rubio doesn’t come over in the next two years, and attendance doesn’t increase, we’re quickly going to become the Charlotte Bobcats of the West, with a roster filled up of overpaid older guys. Which is preferable to becoming the Seattle SuperSeaWolves.
2. Behind the sceners One rationale behind the still-puzzling move to hire Kahn is the notion that Moor/Taylor are smart enough to know that the pain of being a public face of the franchise far exceeds the gain—especially through revamping the team, and trying to regenerate interest in an apathetic population. Kahn’s alleged media, legal, and team-moving experience was certainly something that made him stand out in the hiring process. Whether or not Kahn knows it, part of his job is providing cover for the Taylor family.
#1
Yeah, I’m concerned about that. Desperation wasn’t McHale’s friend. If there’s anything that can ameliorate that, it’d be any potential CBA changes regarding guaranteed contracts. (Not that any of us should be hoping for that as a point of rescue.) The contracts to this point (though Darko was stretching it) and the approach to Foye and Miller last year were somewhat encouraging that he won’t end up that way, but they don’t eliminate the doubt.
by pagingstanleyroberts on Jul 4, 2010 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't understand
how you can give a PERFECT score on a trade that got you a player that hasn’t played a game yet. I’d call that a -5 until you re-did this post next year. Or the year after that. Or whenever RR comes.
At least put it under “speculative” until then.
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