Wolves Updates 7/22
by SG on Jul 22, 2010 2:22 AM CDT
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Wolves sign and introduce Ridnour, Kahn waiting on status of Flynn's hip injury before decision on PGs, Kahn says Pekovic signing should come soon and more
From the Timberwolves site:
The Minnesota Timberwolves today announced the team has signed free-agent guard Luke Ridnour. Per team policy, terms of the contract offer were not disclosed.
"Luke's talent and experience will be helpful to our team this season and beyond," said David Kahn, Timberwolves President of Basketball Operations. "He will compete for the starting point guard position this season. But no matter what role Luke is playing, we believe he'll have a positive influence with our young backcourt, much as he demonstrated last season in Milwaukee."
From Tom Enlund /Journal Sentinel:
"First of all, I want to say how excited I am to be here and be on this ballclub," Ridnour said at his introductory news conference Wednesday in Minnesota. "I think that Minnesota has a lot of talent on this team, and one of the things I thought about coming in is you want to have a chance to win. I believe this team is headed in the right direction. I'm excited to be a part of it and see this organization win some games."
Timberwolves president David Kahn said he expected Ridnour to challenge Flynn, who has had a lingering hip injury, for the starting point guard spot. Kahn said he did not intend to keep three healthy point guards on the roster, an indication that Sessions could go on the trading block when Flynn gets healthy.
Ridnour has said he looked forward to helping Flynn learn the position, much as he did with rookie Brandon Jennings last season with the Bucks. Ridnour and Jennings were the only two Bucks to play in all 82 games last season.
From Kent Youngblood/Star Tribune:
That said, Ridnour, 29, said one of the reasons he signed a four-year, $16 million contract here was the opportunity to compete for a starting job.
"It's something I wanted," he said of the chance. "I wanted the fair chance to compete, not just for a starting role, but to get playing time. I'm at the point in my career where I've been through a lot. [But] I'm going to get better and better, even at my age. I'm excited about the opportunity to come in here and compete and play and help this team win games."
From Jon Krawczynski/AP Sports:
Flynn had an up-and-down rookie season with the Timberwolves and had trouble as a pick-and-roll, ball-dominant point guard fitting into an offensive system predicated on ball movement. Kahn told Flynn in his season-ending interview that he "needed to be prepared to defend his starting position" heading into training camp.
"We like competition both in practices and within the roster," Kahn said. "I think it makes the players better for them to push each other for playing time and the things that go with it."
Ridnour said he looks forward to competing with Flynn, but also to helping the young player learn the nuances of the game, much like he did with rookie Brandon Jennings with the Bucks last year.
From Kent Youngblood/Star Tribune:
The question today is who he will compete with, Johnny Flynn or Ramon Sessions?
It will be Flynn, of course, should his sore left hip come around. Kahn said the injury, originally sustained in the second-to-last regular season game, was getting better steadily until Flynn tweaked it while preparing for the summer league games. Kahn said he didn't expect the situation to be dire, but said the team is still exploring treatment options.
Until they know for sure how Flynn is, Sessions will remain on the roster. Indeed, Kahn said he told Session's agent he could see a scenario in which Sessions is the starter on opening day. Of course, Sessions could also be traded by then.
From Ray Richardson/Pioneer Press:
Kahn said he's waiting on 6-11 center-forward Nikola Pekovic to complete a physical before finalizing a contract with the native of Serbia-Montenegro. Kahn said an agreement could be reached next week.
Pekovic, a second-round pick of the Wolves in 2008, is eligible to join the Wolves this season after completing his obligations with Panathinaikos Athens in the Euroleague.
From Derek Sullivan/Owatonna People's Press:
Brewer said he was sad to see longtime teammate Al Jefferson get traded to Utah last week and he hopes he doesn't also have to relocate.
"I saw Al yesterday and I told him, "Good luck,'" Brewer said. "It's tough. Al went from being the franchise player to being traded. In this league, you never know what could happen.
"Nobody's safe. If Al can get traded, anybody can. I hope I don't get traded. I like it here; I like it in Minnesota."
From Jason Lieser/The Palm Beach Post: Corey Brewer to do basketball camp without Joakim Noah
From Jason Fleming/Hoopsworld:
Still, it's hard to believe would not make this team. The international game is much more predicated on high efficiency and the passing of big men than the NBA game, two aspects of the game where Love excels. He is the king of the outlet pass in addition to being an excellent rebounder, plus he has the ability to step out on the wing and hit a three-pointer.
Really, there may be no more perfect power forward for USA Basketball. Love admitted the prospect of playing for the USA colors had been a dream of his for a long time.
"I've always said that after the Timberwolves - after, really, my job – I think my first priority is Team USA. I'm hoping I have a good showing this week, hopefully I make it to New York, and I'll be playing through August, ending on September 12th at the world championship game."
From Sid Hartman:
The NBA Summer League in Las Vegas wrapped up Sunday. Timberwolves guard Wayne Ellington was 16th in scoring, averaging 15.8 points. Former Wolves first-round pick O.J. Mayo, who is playing for Memphis, was 21st at 15.5.
From The Hoops Market:
The negotiations between Olympiakos and Benetton Treviso for Nemanja Bjelica are close to end with an agreement between both parts. The 22-year-old Serbian forward, who was playing for Red Star, could be announced soon as the new player of Olympiakos.
From Brandon Castel/The Ozone.net:
Matta did go on to say that he believes Koufos can be successful in the NBA as a big man with an outside shot.
From Myron P. Medcalf/Star Tribune:
The other question is why El-Amin hasn't received another shot in the NBA. The Chicago Bulls picked him up in the second round of the 2000 NBA draft. El-Amin scored 18 points in the league's All-Star weekend rookie game that season. But within a year, he was out of the league.
"The Timberwolves never even gave Khalid a chance to come here," said Rene Pulley, founder of the Howard Pulley league. "And they needed point guards."
El-Amin, however, said he doesn't have any regrets about his brief NBA tenure.
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This Pekovic signing is dragging out.....
I think this is the first time in history one man managed to destroy an entire city by himself. Even the Enola Gay had a flight crew.
can't be sure
but the fact that this is an international deal could be complicating issues.
by newfrickinshow on Jul 22, 2010 6:13 AM CDT up reply actions
I thought
Kahn just wanted him to take a physical, and that the nature of getting the results of physicals taken in Europe sent back over here takes some time.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
he probably has a crazy schedule with the national team.
by revprodeji on Jul 22, 2010 6:05 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
I just wish Kevin Love
Was actually as good as he thinks he is.
Oh man...Thank you for saying that
I have been thinking it but felt that I would get booed at around here.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 22, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
His ego and his talent level aren’t quit the same. I used to love when he talks but lately it’s starting to annoy me.
Let any other player say the same shit he has
People on this site would want that player traded fast.
Agree but...
he has a ton of potential and I hope more than anybody that he turns into a stud but something just seems to be missing. His talk is not equal to his play.
Others don’t talk that way because they know it can easily leads to a lot of problems.
His potential is limited
He does not have the physical talents that makes someone a top tier player in nba
So to be successful in the NBA you need to be physically talented?
Then I don’t think that Larry Bird, Steve Nash, Reggie Miller, Karl Malone, Moses Malone, and others who weren’t great athletes but were extremely successful and productive didn’t get the memo.
Karl Malone and Steve Nash aren't great athletes?
Are you serious?
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
More importantly...
Since when does Kevin Love have better physical talent that most NBA Players?
I was always told he can’t jump, is slow and has a short reach. His hustle is what makes him good.
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 22, 2010 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
and yet apparently, hustle is also his problem?
how does someone who can’t jump, is slow, and has a short reach rebound the hell out of the ball at historic levels? Hustle, effort!
The combination of his rebounding numbers and his physical attributes PROVES that the concerns about his hustle are overblown.
by littleboxes on Jul 22, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Who said hustle is his problem
I agree with you. Hustle makes Love great! Give his physical abilities he does outstanding. He is a smart hardworking player.
His wining is what makes him annoying…very annoying
by Timberwolf i.e. Albatross on Jul 22, 2010 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Not so true when you look at the numbers...
“I was always told he can’t jump, is slow and has a short reach”.
His combine numbers for Max Vertical (35") are good for his size and his sprint (3.22) was better than average for his size as well. Both of those numbers came up about the same as Beasley. His wingspan (6’11 1/4") is ok for his size, but it would be great if he had those really long arms like a DMC (7’5 3/4") or Favors (7’4").
Conditioning seems to be the real piece of the puzzle that is missing. It would be great to see him add some muscle to both his upper and lower body.
Shoulda gone Charles Barkley
Nash and Malone were great athletes. Barkley is pretty similar to Love in athletic ability.
Chuck was a pretty damn good athlete himself.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
You're right
I think some people mistakenly think that just because someone can’t jump that high or run that fast that he is not a great athlete. Athleticism is more than vertical leap and running speed.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Charles Barkley was an incredible athlete
I’ll give you that he was not when he was with the Rockets, but man was he ever a physical freak with the 76ers. I think the post about Karl Malone was meant to be about his later years as well, but he was a floor running, dunking fiend in his early days. Nash, I think the reason he has been successful later on is because his main advantage over other PGs is his size, not his athleticism. He fits the bill a bit here in this argument. Dave Cowens, Stockton, Glen Rice, Chris Mullin, Kevin Willis, Nowitzki, Deron Williams, Cassell, Mike Bibby, Paul Pierce…these are guys that have become very good to great players despite not being more physically dominant than their opponents. Not saying they are ALL Hall of Famers, just that everyone on that list became a very good player who reached an All-Star level.
The freedarko article (as well as TimAllen) does a good job pointing out that there is more than just jumping and speed, but I think that is what people mean when they say Kevin Love is not a great athlete. Because in my mind, he is. He just is in the same ways that guys like Nash, Bird, Pierce, etc. have been…more coordination, timing, and precision than leaping and sprinting ability.
by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Jul 22, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe Barkley towards the end of his career but...
there is a reason that at 6’4" he was one of the best players of his era, he was pretty athletic at one time, especially the early years of his career.
Nash was never a great athlete, at his best he was just passable.
As far as Malone he may have been a decent athelte early but he has his best seasons as he was older and couldn’t jump two inches off the ground, so no they aren’t great athletes.
I was going to respond to this
but instead, I’ll just point you towards the article that nja700 posted above – http://freedarko.blogspot.com/2009/12/got-to-get-off-this-never-ending.html – which covers it much better than I could ever hope to.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Nash is a phenomenal athlete
He’s incredible at passing, he’s very good at converting over taller players, he plays heavy minutes in a sport that involves constant running. He can’t jump very high, but that’s not the only thing that makes an athlete.
*Sigh*
In my first response I was talking about being physically talented and I assumed that in my responses after that we were talking about the same.thing, which is one’s physicall limitations etc., Nash isn’t very physically talented and when I say physically talented I mean speed, quickness, vert, and so forth basically the things that you test for at the combine, my point was that those things don’t matter as long as you can play.
Also being able to run a lot doesn’t make a you a great athlete, just means your in good shape which Nash is.
I shouldn’t have said athlete and just left it at that, my fault.
100% agree
After listening to that Dan Patrick interview, I really thought the guy sounded like an ass. “Tooshay”? We’ll see.
"Flynn had an up-and-down rookie season with the Timberwolves and had trouble as a pick-and-roll, ball-dominant point guard fitting into an offensive system predicated on ball movement."
It is weird that Flynn always gets the "pick-n-roll point guard excuse. Have any of these reporters actually watched Flynn try and run a pick-n-roll… It isn’t a pretty sight.
I wish Jonny Flynn
Kurt Rambis, Darko Milicic, and Wes Johnson were actually as good as they think they are.
This notion that Kevin Love has an attitude problem is absurd. There’s a difference between thinking you are good and being confident and having those beliefs be counterproductive to individual and team success. There is zero evidence that these beliefs are hurting Kevin Love or the team. The only thing that we have to go on is that Kurt Rambis, in a year were there was likely some serious tanking, started Ryan Hollins over Kevin Love.
and yet, the following year, we as fans hear not a damn thing about Hollins. How many minutes is Hollins going to play in this non-tanking year?
There is not much to this.
There IS, however, something to arguments about how good Kevin Love is, whether he’s a 6th man or a starter. Those are substantive arguments.
by littleboxes on Jul 22, 2010 9:09 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
zero evidence
I don’t think Love has a really counterproductive attitude, but it did seem like his conditioning and effort level suffered when his minutes were being jerked around.
One way to respond to that would be to say that he was one of — if not THE — best players on the team, and he should have been given starters’ minutes, no questions asked.
Another way would be to say that Rambis wants Love to maximize his potential and rather than scream at him when he’s not responding to coaching, he takes away his minutes.
In either case, Love got worse — not better — when the going got tough with his coach. That could be seen as evidence that Love’s attitude (which would encompass how he feels about himself and his talents) hurt himself and the team.
I have two problems with this argument
First, I’m not sure how much Love’s performance actually suffered when his playing time was jerked around. Was he grabbing substantially fewer rebounds, etc? If this is true, I might change my tune. But this depends on why his minutes were being jerked around.
Second, we don’t know that Love’s minutes suffered because of effort. They could have suffered because of tanking. So, suppose Love’s performance did go down, but it went down because his thought was “why should I play hard for a team and coach that are tanking.”
If that’s the case, does he have an attitude problem? Now, some might say that a player should play hard no matter what. But, others, myself included, might argue than when your coach is actively throwing games by not playing you, all bets are off.
Perhaps I over-emphasize the tanking. I just think it’s become increasingly obvious that Rambis’ rotations were purposefully awful last year. I can’t imagine having to play through that.
And we have limited evidence that other players handled these rotations better than Love because only one other player was negatively affected. Jonny played a lot and so did Al and Brewer. Pavs was lucky to be in the league, Wilkins got playing time as well. The only player besides Love that really got messed with was Sessions. He’s the only one. Did he handle it better, yes. Did he play that well last year? No. Does that mean that Love is clearly an arrogant A-hole? No. It’s one guy.
Good points
A few things struck me while reading them…
First…if Love wasn’t an outstanding rebounder, would he be the best player on the team (occurred to me when you said “Was he grabbing substantially fewer rebounds, etc?”) For me it really tempers how I think of him. Love as a 10 rpg guy is far different than Love as a 14 rpg. At the end of the day/season, however, my expectation for Love based off of his own assessments of himself is for a KG like season – 16 ppg minimum (more like 17-18 a night), 14 rpg, and 5 assists. That’s who Love thinks he is, so let’s see it.
Second, his minutes. Love was, and to some extent (in my humble opinion), still is a boy growing into a man. He wants to be the man, to be the leader, and yet he is the only player on the Wolves to publicly question the team’s moves and decisions. Maybe he’s just ‘speaking the truth,’ but let’s face the reality of being ‘the man’ and team leader in professional sports – you get paid millions of dollars to toe the company line and stick up for your guys and your coaches. All issues are kept in the locker room and on the court. Furthermore, the right to such ‘honesty’ is earned over seasons of dedicated and productive play on the court. Kevin Love, up to this point, does not fit any of this criteria. What he does fit is the criteria of a jock from a big name school, who’s dad played in the NBA, who is beloved by media types because ‘he keeps it real,’ and who can be quite productive but in the end pouts when his coach challenges him, vents his frustrations to the media in an “I know better than they do” victim position, and to be brutally honest let his conditioning go as the season went on (which, to be also brutally honest, was frequently the number one reason why Rambis said he pulled him – not giving maximum effort on the court).
I’m not saying Love ain’t talented, but the dude’s delusional if he thinks that the locker room is going to be his after everything he’s said this summer. You listen to Darko, you listen to Ridnour, you listen to Brewer, you listen to Martell, you listen to Wes, you listen to Beasley for cryin’ out loud!, and these guys sound like actions speak louder than words, and that they all understand that leadership is earned, not given. I hope Love becomes the player that he can be, but right now the guy’s acting too much like a spoiled brat who knows that he can get away with it because nobody’s better than him.
Ugh… forgot the other point I was going to make. I really have little respect for Love at the moment. Out of all our players he’s the one guy who I believe doesn’t want to be here. I say good riddance.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Where does Love
give indication of this?
but the dude’s delusional if he thinks that the locker room is going to be his after everything he’s said this summer.
by PoorDick on Jul 22, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You know what?
You’re right. I just listened to the Dan Patrick interview again, and he doesn’t outright throw anyone under the bus. He does not sound super confident about us, his role, or the direction, either. To be perfectly honest he sounds like a kid who wants to be a starter, and believes he can be a starter in the NBA. I have no problem with that.
He still sounds very much like a kid, like a 21 year old. Perhaps my biggest issue is with annointing him as some sort of franchise foundation piece, some sort of All-Star who was unfairly treated last year. He’s not. The truth is that we don’t quite know what we’ve got in Kevin Love other than we know he has elite rebounding skills and three point range.
I guess I personally still don’t buy into him as the guy who is the identity of this team because he still sounds very young to me, and because I’m waiting to see how he responds to this year. Will he give maximum effort? Will he be in shape throughout the year? How will he respond to Beasley? How will he respond if Beasley does better than him? Or if Beasley sucks, will Love be able to step up his game and be able to carry this team? I believe that Love in 2-3 years will be a much better contributor to his team simply because he will be older, and that right now he does have some growing up to do and that we’re doing him and ourselves a disservice to overlook that.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Whew!
It was real depressing with all the negative sentiment building here towards Love. But your “revised” sentiment is much better. Thanks!
Well
I don’t like admitting when I’m wrong, but then again I’ve tried to commit myself to an evidence based approach to understanding basketball here. This has been exercise (for me) of understanding why that is important. My thoughts/frustrations about Love weren’t really about him at all, and going back trying to find evidence for him throwing guys under the bus revealed this to me because there isn’t any evidence for it (at least that I can find).
I’ve realized that my frustration lies in how I think players should lead by action and example, not by talking. PD just said
Other than being a fan, are you "super confident about the Wolves, the role of Kevin Love, or the direction, either?"
and then threatened to punch me in the tummy%. ;)
Seriously, though, I can understand this sentiment, and especially Love’s take on it. For me personally, though, I do have cautious optimism about the team and it’s direction. In my eyes the team has fundamentally changed the style of basketball that it plays, for better or for worse. That’s a given to me – I can quibble all I want with it but I believe that David Kahn and Kurt Rambis are staking their careers to playing a certain style of basketball. My quibbling isn’t going to change that, and I believe existing personnel (e.g. Al Jefferson and Kevin Love) isn’t going to change their decision/conviction to do that either.
So if we accept that the brand of basketball we’ve seen since Big Al arrived here is a thing of the past and that a perimeter oriented, running/transition style is in – for better or worse – and that’s just the way things are going to be for this team, then what do you want to see this team doing? To me, that’s the awkward spot Love finds himself in – what is his role, his position, in a team committed to playing this way? Makes me think of what he said in the Dan Patrick interview – something along the lines of ’we’ll just have to wait and see what happens in training camp’, as in Love himself isn’t sure how/where he fits until everyone gets out on the court and starts playing.
I hope Al does well in Utah but I personally haven’t ever wondered what would’ve happened if he was surrounded by better talent. It’s not the style we’re playing anymore, so it’s irrelevant. Perhaps some still think that he could have been a true franchise type player, and this where we will have to respectfully agree to disagree. I believe that true franchise players make their presence felt despite surrounding talent, despite systems. They are what they are – they can’t help it – and that’s why they’re franchise guys. Al never proved to be one of those guys, and that’s not intended to be a negative judgment of him, just an honest opinion. I’m not yet convinced that Love is one of those guys either, and as such I’m not ready to hand him anything. In fact, I think Love is one of those guys who needs to be pushed and pushed and pushed some more, so I’m perfectly happy to ‘make’ him earn his playing time and starting position. Pissing Kevin Love off enough to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, to Kurt Rambis that he’s a far greater player than Rambis thinks he is is a net positive in my book. Love would be an absolute force if he did that! I’m just not convinced that Love will ever get there if he’s just given playing time.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hmmm . . .
This is more agreeable (to me, at least). But this:
He does not sound super confident about us, his role, or the direction, either.
Other than being a fan, are you “super confident about the Wolves, the role of Kevin Love, or the direction, either?”
And if I see one effer on this site who bitched about “before the team can be any good, 25 year old Al Jefferson needs better players around him to go with his $55 million guaranteed contract”, and then complains that 21 year old Love’s not “stepping up” or “becoming The Man,” I’ll come to your house and punch you in the tummy.
Don't you think, however, that the responsibility of a player
to at least “sound” confident is greater than the responsibility of its fans to be confident? Going back to Biggity’s point about toeing the company line and all? I’m not sure the answer, I just think those are questions that should be asked.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Yes. I think it's
immature and irresponsible for questioning the coaching/management in public. I also think he has a very good inside view as to what is going on with this team, and I would not be surprised if he has little respect for Kahn, and not much more for Rambis.
And before anybody gets all “THEYRE HIS BOSSESSES HE”S SPOSED TO DO WUT THEY SAY" reflect back to your own current gainful employment and see if you always agree wholeheartedly with everything your superiors rain down upon you.
by PoorDick on Jul 22, 2010 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’ll second that
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Jul 22, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
That's true
I’m not convinced that he’s given Rambis a chance yet, either. I get that Love is McHale’s guy, and that’s fine. From my own personal experience I’ve had bosses I really like get transferred away only to be replaced by people I didn’t really like or didn’t think were as good as the old bosses. In every case, however, I realized over time that just because they weren’t like the old bosses I liked didn’t mean that they didn’t have something valuable to teach me or ways of managing me that made me a better worker.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
It's not that big of a deal...
it just shows us a different side of Kevin Love. By speaking so publicly about the T-Wolves organization, often in a high-and-mighty sort of way, it reflects K-Love’s view of himself and his place in basketball. Whereas many Wolves fans consider him to be a career role player (albeit a good one) he projects more like Chris Paul in New Orleans, who has certainly earned that credibility in the public eye.
The examples that you clamor for have been laid out more than once. He’s condescending about Kahn, Rambis, Beasley, and all teammates that started over him and have been brought in, this off-season. He doesn’t directly insult anyone, but by making all of these implied statements, it begs the question of whether or not he realizes that he, Kevin Love, is a huge question mark entering this season that will go a long way toward deciding if this is going to be a 23— or 37— win (or so) season. The roster has been shuffled, but only in ways that should help the Wolves, now and in the future, PROVIDED THAT LOVE CAN STEP UP HIS GAME. He’s the obvious choice to replace Al Jefferson, and if he can do that, and the other things that he’s supposed to be so great at, the Wolves should see significant improvement.
Love needs to worry about himself first, and how much smarter and more-mature he is than everybody around him, later.
That's true. I don't really need Love to
agree with Kahn or think he’s doing a great job. And people like CP3 come out all the time and question the direction of a franchise, so I guess Love has the right to do that, too. It would be nice, though, if he could be a little more positive and optimsitic in the press, even if he doesn’t really believe it, about the upcoming season. I’m doubtful that Michael Beasley is really that excited about being here, but he said all the right things and I thought that was good for the franchise.
I don’t think Love is an arrogant a-hole. I think he has a high opinion of himself as a player (which is a positive thing) and is pretty competitive, but has a little bit of maturing to do on and off of the court, like anyone his age. He’s not a bad guy, just needs to grow up a little bit. Same with Flynn, same with Beasley, same with most young players.
In the same way that Kahn takes some heat for his public appearances, I think Love is starting to take some of the same heat (albeit from different groups), and I think while a lot of that heat is overblown, there is some valid criticism that can’t all be written off as the venting of angry Al Jefferson fans.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
There's a difference
between Love and Paul though in the quality of play. Paul has played as an all star and is a franchise-level player. Love has never made an all star team and though he may yet develop into a franchise-level player, he isn’t one yet. I believe this is a difference that makes a difference. I’m of the opinion that a player should be supportive of the team and the FO up until the point where the FO needs to be prodded into doing something to upgrade the team. Paul’s newly released list of teams that he would like to be traded to if the team doesn’t find a way to improve is an example of this. Love’s complaints about not knowing what direction the team is headed simply doesn’t qualify – and the way we all know that it doesn’t qualify is by the fact that we view it as a knock against Love’s character. If he was really the type of player that was in a position to prod the FO into improving the roster, we’d all be taking his side in this situation.
I don't think that's true
there’s been a lot of backlash from New Orleans’ fans about what Chris Paul is doing. A lot of them feel pretty betrayed by the whole thing and think Paul is pulling another LeBron on them. They’re definitely not all taking his side.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Think about what happened
with KG. I don’t know of a single Wolves fan that didn’t feel good for KG when he got traded to Boston – and most of them were happy to see him win a title there. Sure, we would have liked to see him win it here. But we all recognized that the team needed a major influx of talent that just wasn’t going to happen in order to get us back into contention.
I think that's mostly because
KG stuck around much longer than he had to (or probably should have). He didn’t complain about his teammates or go out in public and ask for a trade. He probably wouldn’t have ever spoke up if he didn’t learn that we were already shopping him. KG did it the right way, and so the fans were sympathetic.
If KG had come out like CP3 is doing, I think there would’ve been more backlash.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
He's just following the example of the POBO
say whatever’s on your mind, even if its detrimental to the team.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Jul 22, 2010 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
As a 21 year old my self I can’t even imagine how much pressure and pandering these guys get. It’s no wonder they sometimes say some dumb things
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Jul 22, 2010 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
as I 21 guy
I would say bad shit all the time in fact I would want to play on every team in the Nba the burn out and go to the Philippines and play pf even though in the nba I would a pg. That would be a dream come true for me I have no idea why more players go to Philippines they treat basketball players like gods they truely love the sport and have unique under the rim game
jock from the big name school
Reading this and the Odom/Pau v. Darko/Pek piece and had a thought. Maybe we can we get Love a copy of the famous Christian Laettner “Loser, loser, loser, winner” locker room speech?
First…if Love wasn’t an outstanding rebounder, would he be the best player on the team?
On this team? Maybe, but that’d be a huge difference in what he brings to the table and no one would be particularly high on him as a player. If he was just a good rebounder, someone who grabbed the 10RPG you suggested in starters minutes, I’d be a lot less excited about him as a player. He’s good in pretty much every part of the game, but he’s a phenomenal rebounder. If he didn’t have that, his ceiling would be a lot lower. Important to note that I also think he has a good shot of being a better offensive player than most people seem to. I like his perimeter game and his jump shot and since players tend to become better shooters as their careers go on, Love can become a very good option for a team offensively.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Great points, lb.
I’m trying to see what in Love’s quotes connote that he is an arrogant A-hole. Nobody ever comes up with any proof of this, it’s just something they “know.” It often comes from the defeated-defenders of Al Jefferson’s place on this team, who can’t fathom the notion that Love was just as valuable to the Wolves as Al, at a third of the price.
C'mon, now
Writing off all concern about Love’s attitude issues as sour grapes about Al Jefferson is kind of unfair.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Biggity has posted some pretty nice stuff about that
in this thread.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Right here..
http://www.canishoopus.com/2010/7/14/1568720/wolves-updates-7-14
There’s a nice tidbit about what Love thinks of himself as a starter. You could argue that that’s not arrogance but confidence. Fine. For the sake of argument, I can agree with that. But the fact that he compared his teammates to Gasol and Bynum and basically said that his teammates are lesser players? Obviously, nobody in their right mind would think Hollins and co. were as good as Gasol/Bynum, but if Love truly thinks he can be a leader of the team, this is not the way to go about it. As a leader of the team, you never EVER put down your own teammates for the sake of glorifying yourself. If this isn’t arrogance and/or “horrible attitude”, I don’t know what is. Do you think KG would’ve ever said what Love said in that post?
In general, I’m sick of players whining about not being a starter because they think they’re so talented. The game should be about winning, and if the coach thinks your role is better off the bench, then don’t cry about it. Be a friggen’ professional ffs. Keep your trap shut and earn your way into the starting position if you want it so bad. Whining your way into it is gonna do nothing but hurt team chemistry.
Lols just chill.
How about
Love laughin’ it up with Dan Patrick about signing Darko and Pek when those signings were specifically brought up in a negative light? He’s the only guy this summer who criticizes the team, management, and coaching choices and then follows it up with ‘But I want to be the leader on this team. It’s not like we have Pau and Odom – I should be starting.’
Did Darko throw anyone under a bus? No, he owned up to his own shortcomings and correctly identified some things the team needed to do better that he could help with.
Did Beasley throw anyone under a bus? No, he admitted his own failings as well, and in contrast to Love on Patrick’s show passed on a golden opportunity to criticize the Heat, recognizing that the leadership role he wants begins with not discussing such things in the media.
How about Webster? Dude learned all 108 names of the kids at his summer basketball camp – before they even arrived.
How about Luke Ridnour? He of the “I want to compete for a starting job, but I also recognize that mentoring these guys helps us win more games too.” Also, “I wanted to come here because I think this team has a lot of young talent and is getting a lot better.”
My biggest contention with Love is his sense of entitlement. I don’t dispute his skills, I dispute the maturity with which he is trying to make his case for starting. The fact is that he is a third year player who’s never made an All-Star team, couldn’t prevent his team from going 2-30 down the stretch last year (or whatever it was), who couldn’t even force his own coach’s hand last year with his play. It’s not like Rambis was benching Dwight Howard down the stretch last year, or Kevin Durant. It’s a put up or shut up league, and right now Love is doing a lot of talking.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Another key thing about Love
Is we all love to project his numbers if he were a starter. But the fact is, he’s never been in shape enough to be a starter and play the level of D required in that role.
I’m not saying he isn’t talented either. And being a big takes some time to grow into your body. So I get why he may not physically be all there yet. But for a guy who isn’t in peak physical condition, I’d just zip it.
by Rodman99 on Jul 22, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
But he has been a starter
so there’s no need to project his numbers. As a starter last year he went 15.3/13.3/2.8 in 32 min. PFs who had better numbers in any 2 of these 3 categories last year:
Boozer: 19.5/11.2/3.2
West: 19.0/7.5/3.0
Gasol: 18.3/11.3/3.4
Josh Smith: 15.7/8.7/4.2
So Love does not deserve to be compared, or to compare himself to the top PFs in the league?
What would the list look like
If you used Points, Rebounds, and Blocks as your 3 categories?
Stop bringing facts and logic into this discussion! Kevin Love has a slightly inflated ego, do you realize how damaging that can be to an NBA team? When was the last time a NBA team ever won a championship with players on their roster that were mildly arrogant? In the NBA you win by being humble and keeping your head down! Why can’t our best player act like a career journeyman?
by Hallelujah Hollaback on Jul 22, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Kobe?
Please tell me that Kobe is at least mildly arrogant
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Jul 22, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Pretty sure the above post was sarcastic...
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Elie Seckbach
cracks me up. And to the best of my knowledge, I think its unintentional.
I looked ahead to the open road, thought about the people and what they know, and wrote a book called "People Don't Know Nothin!"
I like Webster.
I hope we see some further development of his game this year, because he seems like the kind of guy you’d want on your team… and in your community.
by Krotz the Wall on Jul 22, 2010 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m with you, although I don’t think Rambis was throwing games. I think the collected talent ensured the outcome. I think it was the combination of showcasing Big Al (or if not showcasing him, keeping his role large to improve perception) and sending Love a message, albeit one he didn’t react well to.
Is Koufos our "fifth big?"
Or have there been any other rumors for who else we might tab to fill out the front line (aka injury insurance)?
K Love
He’s not the only one that thinks hes good! He practicing with the pre-olympic team!
They like him for his skill set
but I dont think he fits in as a starter for what the wolves are trying to do. He cannot run and fill the lanes for a up tempo team
Um...
He’s not running and filling the lanes.
He’s grabbing the rebound and initiating the fast break, and he will do it better than almost any other big man in the NBA.
The marginalizing of his unique (and well-suited) skill set by some posters here is ridiculous.
He’s good enough for the pre-olympic team, but not good enough to start on our 15 win team?
C’MON!
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on Jul 22, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Love without rebounding
is what, exactly?
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions
An undersized PF
with above average passing, excellent outlet passing abilities, 3pt range, and the ability to get to the line at a pretty good rate with a good free throw percentage, and a pretty good basketball IQ… at still only 21. Not a starter, but one that could grow into one or an extremely effective bench player.
What is any ‘good’ player when you take away they’re world class skill? Obviously, Love without the rebounding is a role player. But, it is a silly question. What is Nash without the passing? What is Kobe without his ability to create his own offense. The answer is less than they actually are.
by Krotz the Wall on Jul 22, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
My point
is that if Love averaged a couple boards fewer per game, Beasley would getting a lot more attention for a starting spot.
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
a couple boards fewer per game is a big deal...
And the increased attention for Beasley would be unwarranted given that he is an inferior scorer (thus far in the NBA).
Of course, in these hypotheticals
Beasley is without his athleticism and/or scoring touch. I get your point, but he is what he is, and that is a starting-caliber PF.
Two rebounds fewer per game
from Love’s numbers as a starter would still be at the top in the NBA for PFs (behind only Camby and Randolph). But even with average rebounding numbers there would be only 4 PFs who averaged more points AND assists than Love did as a starter.
if Love any player with an elite skill averaged a couple boards fewer per game suddenly saw that skill become average, Beasley whoever backed them up would getting a lot more attention for a starting spot.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
by cap'n hack on Jul 22, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Totally Agree With Krotz
Would add that it’s amazing that fans will react furiously to any criticism of a (so far) punchline like Darko, act as if a guy in Spain who may never come here will be our savior, defend Jefferson when he openly would bark at teammates WHILE PLAY WAS IN MOTION, and react as if any criticism of Kahn is a national conspiracy against the state of Minnesota, and yet will go out of their way to criticise our best player and our only good draft pick since KG (that has actually worn a Timberwolves uniform)
Summer League is irrelevant unless it validates my opinion
by Son of Gerald Green on Jul 22, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
That is a REALLY absurd statement...
What is Kobe or Durant without scoring? What is Steve Nash without passing?
Seriously… what is your point? Love would be an OK player, which is actually pretty impressive considering you have stripped him of a historically awesome skill.
Let me add the context
of what I was thinking about when I made that statement.
The general tenor of arguments for Love often make it sound as if he’s an All-Star player who has been grievously misused. The advanced stats people love him and think he should be playing 36 minutes a game. It’s as if we have this franchise saving PF already on the roster but we’ve been too stupid to properly use him. The bar has been set high for Love, very high, and I don’t think that’s appropriate nor fair to Love.
He’s not a scorer. He can score competently, but he’s not a scorer. He can pass well for a big man, but do we really believe that his passing is going to net us more than 2-3 wins a season at most? He doesn’t block shots well, the jury is out as to whether he plays defense well at a high level. He doesn’t have great athleticism, isn’t particularly fast or in great condition to out hustle the competition for 30+ minutes, and he doesn’t have some huge wingspan or terrific height to mitigate his athletic shortcomings. What he is is smart, crafty, and a rebounding phenom. In this context, I would argue, his rebounding is what makes him such a superior prospect. Take that away and he becomes Jeff Green – a solid role player and nothing else.
Kobe, Nash, Durant, and others all have other skills or attributes to fall back on – other things that add to their games. Kobe is extremely athletic and a great post player for his position, and if he wasn’t scoring 30 ppg would probably be in the running every year for DPOY. Nash is a lights out shooter in addition to being a great passer. Durant is very long, tall, and athletic for his position and is developing as a great defender. Love is an undersized, slow (by NBA standards) big man with good passing and shooting ability without his rebounding. That’s all I’m trying to point out – the notion that so far Love’s greatest value to the Wolves lies in his elite rebounding.
For all the talk about outlet passing we’ve seen very little of it. I don’t care about system – great players show their abilities no matter what system they’re in. Love will always be a great rebounder no matter what system he’s in. To put it in a different context, if you take away both guys’ rebounding superiority, which guy is the better prospect? David Lee or Kevin Love? At this point I would argue Lee – better scorer and better hustle. That’s the next step we need to see from Love. What is the other thing he’s so good at that we can’t make him a Super 6th man?
"Styx might be the mullet of bands."
by biggity2bit on Jul 22, 2010 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I will say that Love threw some pretty sweet outlet passes
last season. I remember several to Gerald Wilkins that went right over the heads of defenders for easy lay ups. They are a beauty to watch.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Good points
There were times late last season (well after his hot start) where he played like a one-trick pony. The outlet passes are fun to see, but just like Corey Brewer’s dunks, they only slightly impact a game and they don’t even happen every game.
by Rascal Flatts on Jul 22, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess I just haven't seen those sentiments...
That Love is a world beater but just was treated poorly. The most that I have seen is that people are claiming that he was the Wolves 2nd best player last year, and had his role and playing time messed with more than anyone else on the team.
The official reason for moving Love, who was having a pretty strong showing at that point, to the bench was to add at least one person that could produce for the 2nd unit. We’ll take that at face value, even though arguments can be made about rotations, player development, showcasing Al, near total lack of NBA level talent outside the top 6 players. He got moved to add punch to the 2nd team, and it worked pretty dang well at first… him and Sessions worked pretty well together.
After a while, it wasn’t working out so well. Love seemed to be chafing at the role a bit more. His effort level wasn’t consistent. As a result, his playing time fluctuated a lot. Was this just bad attitude? I don’t know. The guy watched as Hollins was used as a starter. He got on the floor with pretty poor players. Even when he was having great games, he wouldn’t be used in the 4th QTR. All along, it was reported, he was being told that he had a big role in the future, was a starter down the line. Man, it had to get OLD after a while. I’m not making excuses for the guy, but I’m not surprised that he become a bit more inconsistent and unhappy with his role. I also think that the missed time at the beginning of the season, the work to get back into playing shape ended up negatively affecting his conditioning and his general health over the course of the entire season.
Was Rambis trying to motivate Love to become better? Maybe. Was Rambis only reacting to what he saw Love doing? Maybe? I don’t think it was handled well by Love, and in some part Rambis as well.
I don’t know that anybody is proclaiming Love to be an amazing basketball player. He IS a pretty good one, and the Wolves seems to be building with his world class rebounding in mind. So yes, his rebounding is the single greatest aspect that he offers the Wolves at this time. He does have other plus skills, but his great rebounding is certainly his best asset at this time. However, to say that he has very little else to offer the Wolves is a little much.
by Krotz the Wall on Jul 22, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
"I don’t know that anybody is proclaiming Love to be an amazing basketball player."
I do. Have you met Blakeley? =P
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
I haven't paid attention to his posts, no.
Personally, i think that Love COULD develop into a very unique basketball player, if not ever truly elite in anything except rebounding.
by Krotz the Wall on Jul 22, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
It was kind of a joke, but Blakeley is a huge Love booster
around here. But there is a decent-sized group of people who felt that Love was the best player on the team last year and a handful of people who felt he should’ve been mentioned in All-Star game consideration.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
I think Love was our best player last year
and I’m thrilled that Jefferson is gone.
But I also think Love has sounded less than enthusiastic about the team over the summer. And it concerns me.
It’s as much what he hasn’t said as what he has. There are no “I love Minnesota” “We’re going to really improve with these moves and I’m excited to be a part of it” type of comments coming out of his mouth. He is not saying the “right” things and for a player of his limited experience level, who needs to earn the starting spot (even as good as he is), I don’t like what we’re hearing and not hearing.
Still, the kid is young and will mature physically and mentally given time. I just hope Rambis sees his value the way many do and gives him the right kind of coaching: balancing ego, respect and firmness in the way that NBA coaches have to do in order to earn the big bucks they get paid.
I don't disagree with anything you just said.
Though, I’d rather not have a bunch of people just claim, “I love Minnesota”. I’ve been to Wolves games, it’s not like they’re getting a top draw of people supporting the team even while they are awful. Maybe a “I appreciate the fans and all the support that I and the team get.”
I’d love it if KLove just shut up, got to work, and proved it on the court. I think the team want him to get out there and be a public face for the team… probably just more of a “Rah Rah” sort. It is a bit disconcerting to here his comments… it’s because he sounds a lot like us. Hopeful but not entirely optimistic.
Good post. Totally agree.
by Krotz the Wall on Jul 22, 2010 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Well I am one of those who really does see Love as an underappreciated savior...
but I also agree that most of that value is in rebounding. The thing is… Rebounding is SUPER important. Love projects to 3.87 more rebounds per 36 minutes than the 20th best rebounding PF (Kenyon Martin), assuming 50% of the possesions following those rebounds turn into buckets, that is a 3.87 pp36 purely from rebounding. With that one skill Love adds 3.87 points more a game to his team than the 20th best rebounder in the league. That is serious value.
In order to recoup that value through scoring, a player would need to take 20 shots in 36 minutes and make them at a 19.4% higher rate than an alternative player. Among players that shoot anything approaching 20 shots per 36, that is more than 2.5 times the TS% difference between Dwayne Wade and Rodney Stuckey.
You are undervaluing rebounding. You don’t win the game with rebounding alone, but it is hugely important. There are roughly 85 opportunities to grab a rebound each game, being a few percentage points better at grabbing those rebounds will often be the difference between winning and losing. If you have Kevin Love on the floor, your team has an advantage that few other players in the league can even approach.
I think that Jeff Green is a great comp for Love without rebounding, but I don’t agree with some of your other comps. Durant without scoring would be in Ndudi Ebi territory (and I really like Durant). His defense might be improving, but it is still poor, and he isn’t much of a rebounder or facilitator. Nash does have a nice shot, but there are a lot of guys with better 3-point strokes that will never see a minute of NBA action, because they don’t play defense or facilitate the offense. I’ll give you Kobe, he has a pretty complete game, and would probably be an even better player if he toned down his shooting a little.
by vjl110 on Jul 22, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Sing it brother VJ!!
Rebounding is appreciated by many fans, but still underappreciated compared to it’s value.
And of course scoring (as opposed to scoring efficiency) is overvalued, so with Love we have the perfect storm for a debate like this.
To quote a friend of mine recently "I don’t care what is right any more and I don’t care what is “true” – I just care what WORKS!!"
Love doesn’t look “right” he just “works”.
I would actually go as far as to say, rebounding is the primary reason height is so valued in basketball. Blocks and interior post games are nice, but if there was no rebounding in basketball I suspect the average player would be shorter and more skilled.
by Hallelujah Hollaback on Jul 22, 2010 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions
EDIT
In order to recoup that value through scoring, a player would need to take 20 shots in 36 minutes and make them at a 19.4% higher rate than an alternative player. Among players that shoot anything approaching 20 shots per 36, that is more than 2.5 times the TS% difference between Dwayne Wade and Rodney Stuckey.
I forgot to divide the TS% by 2 to account for the fact that it values the percent of shots that result in 2 points… so it is actually 9.7% not 19.4% difference in TS% needed to recoup value over 20 shots. So merely a couple percentage points more than the difference between Wade and Stuckey… Which is still a huge deal, especially considering nobody takes 20 shots per 36.
Kevin Love
Has been acting totally immature IMO with his interviewing. I really don’t like his critiques of the FO and of our incoming players, and I agree that his arrogant attitude and belief that he’s been somehow screwed over on this team do not bode well for his future with the Wolves.
The thing is that after this year he will have been given the chance to be a full time starter and if he has major shortcomings they will be exposed. I don’t believe Kevin is unable to point a finger at himself when he needs to improve so that will be his test. If he’s not in good enough shape to play starter’s minutes for 82 games without getting injured then the world will know it. Being a hotheaded 21 year old just compounds all of this.
Kevin will get better at all things, including leadership as his role becomes solidified. I wish he’d shut his yap to people like Dan Patrick, but I think the guy will be one of our best players for many years.
Flawed analysis
but still a great analysis. The thing is that we really need to know where Love’s rebounds are coming from and how he gets them to truly analyze his value.
1) We’d have to check his own misses and somehow just add that back to his shooting efficiency rather than rebounding (I’d count someone else’s misses as rebounding, but your own misses would be more accurately reflected in TS or eFG%)
2) Rebounds off of free throws (we give up a lot of free throws per game, that probably didn’t hurt his (or Al’s) defensive rebounding numbers).
3) Rebounds that would have been otherwise corraled by a teammate are less valuable (offensive rebounds should be more of a focus, but defensive rebounds should maybe be given a very small weighting because most teams collect around 70% of the available defensive rebounds no matter who is in).
4) Rebounds that lead to fast breaks (outlet passes) should be given more weight as they convert at a much higher percentage. This is something that Love should get even more credit for among the league than he does, whereas the others have been reasons to deduct from his contribution.
Overall, I’d say you made an excellent point and it’s awesome to see the tradeoffs between rebounding and efficiency, I just wanted to point out that the analysis might have some small hiccups in it. Still, rebounding is obviously a very valuable trait and I agree with your general sentiment.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Yeah, I'm aware it is a sloppy measure...
but you can lean a lot of the assumptions pretty far against rebounding and it still looks pretty damn important (as I assume you agree).
1) I’m not sure how much of a problem this is. If Love gets 50% of his own rebounds rather than rebounding 25% of his own shots, those extra rebounds he gets are just as important as the extra rebounds he gets from other players’ misses. Love missing shots will hurt his TS%, but shouldn’t affect the value of his rebounds. I also think that it has been demonstrated that the % of Love’s rebounds that come from his own misses is way overstated.
2) and 3) Rebounding rate in different situations would have been a better measure for this analysis, and if I was taking more time with it, it is what I would have used. However, the difference in the number of gross rebounds per 36 safely skirts a lot of the problems you state. No matter how you look at it, those 3 more rebounds per 36 are 3 more possessions, whether they come from grabbing defensive rebounds others would not have grabbed or offensive rebounds others would not have gotten. I suppose, if you play on a team that gets a lot more opportunities to grab defensive free throw rebounds it will pad your stats relative to a player on a different team… but you could also make the argument that our atrocious defense gave Love many fewer opportunities to grab the higher rate defensive rebounds.
4) Yes, this would factor into the 50% of possessions off of rebounds turn into scores value that I arbitrarily chose. There are likely a lot of factors involved, and I’m not sure how good of a guess 50% is, but it is likely to be different depending on the kind of rebounds that a player gets.
I still
disagree with you on point one.
Collecting your own rebound and scoring brings your efficiency down to (give or take) 50% on 2 shots rather than 100% on 1 shot and it also adds an extra rebound from your own shot. This is (likely) the exact same value, but in one instance his shooting looks worse and his rebounding gets padded. I’d rather see this kind of rebound chalked up to shooting efficiency rather than rebounding prowess. But I guess I can see both sides to it, whether I disagree or not.
You’re right that it is largely taken into account by per36 stats as most teams have the same things happen. But I’d suggest that there are a lot more opportunities to boost your rebounding stats on a crappy team (albeit by only about 5-10%…. so I’m not trying to suggest that it’s a huge difference, just one that would, ideally, be taken into account and should be acknowledged.
Of course I don’t expect you to put in a full days work and figure this stuff out as that would be ridiculous, just thought I’d point out some small flaws. Like I said though, really appreciate the analysis!
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
I don't think so
I mean, on the one hand with someone like Love, he’s usually already in good position to grab the rebound (since we’re mostly talking about lay ins and tip ins). But it’s very hard to do the “double jump” thing, where you jump to shoot and then have to jump back up again to grab the board.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
A lot easier for someone
who doesn’t get as far off the ground :)
Hangtime, sometimes it’s a bad thing!
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
coaches say so
You have a better idea of where you’re own shot is going than anyone else on the court. Coaches harp on following your shot.
I agree here
but misses under the basket (what I meant to focus on) seem less about follow and more about brute force, coordination, and effort.
by littleboxes on Jul 22, 2010 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions
great players
Not to start an argument because PD and TA have that covered pretty well right now, but do you think best players always need to be multi-dimensional? I look at Dirk, who has been the Mavs best player and see how he collapses opponents defenses. Sometimes that one skill can completely change the complexity of the game. Admittedly, I doubt Dirk ever wins a championship, but I don’t think the necessarily takes away from his “greatness”. I don’t really care for Dirk’s game, but he sticks out in my mind as an exception to what you say. Others, may include Roy, Carmelo etc.
He doesn't have to
the other bigs on the team are average to below average rebounders, he’s going to be the guy getting all the rebounds and making all the outlet passes, two things that no other big on this team can do as well as Love, so yes he can play in an uptempo system.
You can't start the break
Without getting the rebound first. It’s even better when your best rebounder is also your best outlet passer. Kevin may not be the best at running the break, but there is not a single big in the NBA that I can say is better than him at starting the break.
by nja700 on Jul 22, 2010 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Probably quite a few better at starting the break
and definitely a lot better at finishing the break, but very few with his outlet abilities :)
And by this I mean, there are quite a few ways to start a break and Love only knows how to do one of them… It’s pretty to watch, but drastically overvalued on a team that does not consistently beat the defense down the floor by a wide enough margin.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
I suppose
I forgot about blocking shots (especially to a teammate). That’s another good way start the break, along with steals. He also won’t do much handling of the ball on the break either, I suppose. In those regards, I think he’s pretty easily outdone. Anthony Randolph is a good example of the ways in which other guys cans start the break that Love cannot.
I was thinking about the rebound/downcourt pass method, which is probably biased towards Love. I still think there is an argument for him being the best in the league at that. I probably should have also noted that when I said “starting the break” I also meant it in terms of quantity. The sheer amount of rebounds he averages plays into it, as well as that he’s seemingly always looking to start the break.
Yeah
I just like to temper our enthusiasm about Love every once in a while as I am a Love lover. Those who hate Love don’t seem to be able to put together a functional argument besides he’s being a cry baby and he’s out of shape/isn’t athletic enough or can’t score in volume like Al could.
Definitely the best outlet passer in the game. But like you said, not the best at starting the break, necessarily.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Trailing the Break
This is often overlooked. The secondary break is an important component of transition offense. Being able to shoot the 3 and being a good passer are great skills for your designated rebounder/outlet passer to have. Love’s ideally suited to take advantage of a defense that’s out of position due to scrambling back to cover the primary break.
Love is more than you think.
He is the second most efficient scorer on the team because he knows how to draw fouls and not give them. second , he averages more assists then his opponent. The Stats are actually accurate if he performs better per minute than half the guys making the NBA all star teams. Also read the entire context of what he says not what someone said he said. Notice his praise for Beasley for example, in the Slam article. Granted he is arrogant, most NBA players are it is part of the drive to be the best.
Likewise, I didn’t see the problem in the Beasley interview either, I think he will do pretty well this year and make for some interesting match ups at two positions.
Max of 2 healthy point guards on roster?
I thought the most interesting comment in today’s recap came from Kahn. He indicated that he wouldn’t have three healthy point guards on the roster – the only reason he has three at the moment is that Flynn is hurt. So, what does this mean for the following year? Let’s assume Flynn gets healthy, & Sessions is traded. We go through the year with two healthy point guards. Then Rubio comes over. We have three more years of Luke. Is Flynn gone when Rubio comes over, assuming Kahn holds to his cap of two healthy point guards on the roster?
If Rubio comes over
Flynn or Ridnour gets traded, unless one or the other absolutely blows up into a franchise PG, in which case the rights to Rubio gets traded. Also, Rubio may not come over, so this allows Kahn to maintain two competent PGs. Kahn seems comfortable in signing guys to what he believes are value-based deals that aren’t hard to move in the event he needs to further refine the roster. What I don’t agree with is Kahn’s logic in signing Ridnour. I would prefer they just opened up the starting role to both Sessions and Flynn and let them fight it out. Sessions is a better PG than Ridnour and I’m 95% sure this will be proved next season as Ridnour struggles to duplicate his shooting from last season and Sessions thrives on his new team (assuming he gets traded).
by Rascal Flatts on Jul 22, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
I see this year
as a battle between Flynn and Ridnour. Is Flynn more valuable as a 6th man scoring punch than Ridnour is as a steady hand / mentor? Of course, Flynn could be the one to go this year if Kahn is holding his cards close to his chest to keep the value high, something he’s been criticized for not doing in the past.
Let me just get some context here:
1. The Wolves are coming off a 15-win season
2. Although they may improve over last year, they have traded away their leading scorer and highest paid player for—nothing that will improve the team over last year (and don’t discount the loss of Gomes and Wilkins, either)
3. There is not a single Top Ten At His Position player on this team, not does it appear that there is any chance of one coming here or emerging any time soon
4. Ricky Rubio will likely not be here until 2012, if ever
5. 1/4 of the salary is going to three back-up level point guards
6. We may or may not have Pek in a Wolves uniform this year, if ever
7. Despite having, what, 11 draft picks at our disposal over the last two years, we might have added one starter to this horrible team during past year, maybe two if Webster/Wes both emerge.
8. Already-dismal season ticket sales are only at an 85% renewal rate so far
And the issue that has everybody all up in arms is that Kevin Love’s not waving the pom pons hard enough?
by PoorDick on Jul 22, 2010 12:00 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
That's *one* of the issues that has some people upset
and I think fans of a 15-win team are justified in wanting their team’s best player to sound at least a little optimistic about the upcoming season. I don’t think that’s so radical.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
If someone asks him "what do you think about the upcoming season"
a response like, “well, we’ve got a lot of young players with some good potential and I’m excited to see what we’re going to have on the court this year. We’re going to give maximum effort and hopefully come away with a successful season.”
That’s not lying, it’s just putting things in a positive perspective. Like 99% of athletes, coaches and politicians have done since the dawn of time.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
He's said that kind of thing.
A lot.
Maybe he knows what others perceive to be true, in that David Kahn is an incompetent general manager working in a small market for a penny-pinching owner. Maybe he wants the Wolves to win even more than we do, and is frustrated with the lack of progress in that direction (Just A Fan’s comments will back this assertion up).
If that’s the case, then bitch on, brother. If other fans are too delicate to hear the truth, they’re in for a rude awakening.
How about just keep quiet and smile?
And talk about how he needs to improve this year.
Haven’t we learned from David Kahn that there is a difference between knowing something is true and saying it out loud to the public? :)
How about Love
Owning up to the fact that he was a big part of us winning only 15 games. You think that’d give him just a touch of humility.
Uhhh . . . I'm not sure
what metric you wish to use, but if you want to go straight to “Wins Produced Per 48 Minutes” Kevin Love was definitely part of the solution, not part of the problem.
According to that stat, Ryan Hollins got us about 4 wins last year (3.9)
why is everyone around here so pissed off at him then?
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Well said.
Very eloquent, and reflecting the underlying intelligence that I just new was in there somewhere, but yet was so rarely displayed.
Yeah, I've tried being civil with you
I’ve made my points about statistics. I’ve engaged with you in this discussion trying to bring substantive arguments about a variety of topics. I haven’t been snippy or sarcastic. And you trot out some lame, condescending, retired line because I challenged your reliance on WS48 scores?
So yeah, I’ll say it. Fuck off.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
It is not my nerve which has been struck,
as I am not the one telling people to “Fuck off.”
However, I am questioning the hysteria over the current best player on a terrible team not being all gumdrops and lollipos over the current status and future direction of this team.
I'm not telling people, I'm telling you.
You can’t expect everyone to just write off your condescending posts as “hey, he’s just the drunk, crazy guy at the bar. No problems here.”
Don’t get me wrong. I like a lot of what you write on here. But your saying:
“TimAllen— he don’t like big numbers. They are scary to him, and may capture his soul.”
is the equivalent of saying “F off” without saying it.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Fuck off
see, was that funny? Nope, not even a little.
I think it's a rude
and ignorant way to respond to someone, and I wouldn’t choose to do it.
But if “Fuck off” is the only way you can express your sentiments, please feel free to do so. It allows the reader to get an accurate perception of not only how you feel, but who you are.
You have a lot of nerve
telling anyone that a response is rude and/or ignorant.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
I'll admit that I have no idea
what “Byzantine thought process” means.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
It just really makes me mad
that you are one of the only posters on this board who consistently is rude, consdescending and downright mean to a lot of posters (not just me) and is rarely ever called out on it. And never takes accountability for it, other than passing it off as being drunk. We’ve all said things we shouldn’t have or that we regret. But you do it without apology or regard. I lost my cool and said “f you”. I’m not proud of it. I’m not ashamed of it. It is what it is.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
For the record,
you did not say, “f you.” You said, “Fuck off.”
So you portray me as “consistently is rude, consdescending and downright mean to a lot of posters,” yet just moments ago you also tell me that “I like a lot of what you write on here.”
Does this mean you like rude, condescending and downright mean?
Did an argument about Love
really just turn into an argument about hate?
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Yes, I said "F Off", you're right
and not every post of yours is rude and mean. The ones that aren’t are usually filled with a lot of good, knowledgeable, basketball-related info. I appreciate your insights on stuff like that.
But you do have a track record of those other types of posts and those I definitely do not appreciate.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Fine.
Let’s make a deal: You give me your private contact information, and any time I feel like making a comment, I’ll run it by you first to make sure you approve.
Look, I thought you were comfortable with your “Stat Hating” status. I didn’t realize it was a sore spot with you, and I promise never to make fun of you for it again.
Hah, see, now that was funny
But I don’t want that type of responsibility.
I don’t mind the occasional jab about the stats thing. I know I set myself up for it. I just don’t like being called stupid after asking, what I thought, was a legit question.
It’s all good. And I owe you apology for the “f off” thing. You’re right, if I’m going to criticize you for being rude, I shouldn’t use that type of language. I think we understand each other now and we can go back to our regularly scheduled programming.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Whew
Mom and Dad finally made up. I was getting worried.
Is it us kids? Are we the reason you fight?
Is it the stats? Should we burn them?
It’s about wins, isn’t it? If we just won then you’d both be happy and be together forever… (I have some thinking to do in my room)
I was incredibly tempted
To say fuck off to somebody for a completely innocuous comment, just to deflate things.
But PD’s way worked much better, and give a nice little bookend feel to the argument.
By the way
I just don’t like being called stupid after asking, what I thought, was a legit question
I’ve noticed you ask questions and request clarifications fairly often, and for what it’s worth, in my opinion the ability to do this shows not only confidence, but intelligence.
I actually agree with PD
It’s refreshing to see honest questions and frank requests for clarifications on a blog or anywhere on the net. The web has turned everyone into a freaking expert, and naivete is savaged mercilessly. TA can, when not riled up, be almost too innocent for the blogosphere.
If only he would agree with all my opinions…
Clearly, and a fine point it was.
I was just laughing to myself how one little character could have turned you into a total d-bag.
In sort of a
“straw that broke the camels back” kind of way? ;)
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
So now you're
more or less just “beating the dead camel”?
Or did you just start giving it cigarettes to give it a slow death? Joe Cool style… speaking of which, why isn’t he on TV anymore….? Oh no… no…. NOOOOOO!
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
well the reality is
that humor gets you a lot things in this world
and PD is often pretty damn funny.
funny queer.
Can't argue with that, TA
Mr. Chandler here makes a valid point.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
I just thought...
you have have been inspired by this post in a way that was not intended by its author.
You seem a little edgier on this topic, even before the TimAllen exchange.
Not even a little?
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Well, sometimes
I’ll order a regular Coke instead of a Diet Coke. So, yeah, I guess I’m a “little” edgy.
hey
at first I thought you were being humorous and referencing your earlier discussion about Jonny Flynn using these same words…moral relativism, etc.
but, I think you’re serious. Still funny, however.
[and I’m not taking a dig at you]
The link that PD just posted
has him with a WS/48 number that was better than 9 players from the Wolves’ roster this past season, including Sessions, Brewer and Ellington.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
That was with Dallas in limited minutes..
Hollins got the minutes to show his true colors last year, and they weren’t pretty
That link is from last season with the Wolves, isn't it?
Sorry if I misread the stats, but I thought that those were his stats from last season.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
The link says 2009-2010 Minnesota Timberwolves Roster and Stats
It lists the players with WS/48 stats and Hollins is listed as .048 in 73 games. His WS/48 stat from the previous season with Dallas/Charlotte is listed as .076.
Could someone tell me what exactly I’m misreading here?
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
You are right to be confused...
If I didn’t remember Berri’s write-up about Hollins being the worst player in the NBA I would have made the same reading.
Here is a link to the year the Timberwolves year review WP48 posting.
http://dberri.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/twolves0910.jpeg
Hollins has a -.143 WP 48 and cost the team 3.75 wins.
Interesting that Damien Wilkins is so high
or, I guess, high on the Wolves’ roster. He sure didn’t seem like our third best player last season. For the stat heads out there, do you agree with WS on this one about Damien?
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Well
he didn’t have much competition… Gomes had a terrible year. Flynn was a rookie. Sessions should have been our third best, but was used in an awful way. Brewer is what he is (helped by the people around him more than anyone else on our team, but surrounded by suck, he will definitely suck). Ellington would have been better had he been given more time to play and acclimate to the game. Darko only helped us so much last year (I suspect he will be more valuable than Wilkins would have been this coming season) because of lack of inshapeness and he obviously lacked the touch around the basket (from sitting out for so long)
So yeah, I’d say he was probably easily in the running for our third best (plus, he gets a free win for the first game :) )
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Yeah, that makes sense
I would’ve picked Brewer based on instinct alone, but those arguments for Wilkins make sense.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Rebounds...
Damien got tons of rebounds for a SG, which if your reading above, I think is a pretty big deal. He also played reasonably efficient offense.
For reference, a WP48 of .100 is league average so Wilkens’ .117 makes him a slightly above average SG.
I think that WP48 overvalues players that play “bigger” than their position, because of the positional adjustment. Thus I think Wilkens gets more love for his rebounds than he probably deserves, but I don’t think it is crazy to say he was an average if not slightly above average player last year.
Damien's style of offensive play...
was a sore spot, last year. The team needed guys to launch some 3’s, even if they only made 30-35%, and he’d always pass them up, leaving someone else with an even-worse shot.
He was a careful player, and maybe that boosts his efficiency ratings a bit. For our team last year, he was not good.
That's a good point
like TA mentions below, I wonder if he would be a lot better on our team this year with all the shooters as a change of pace guy? I realize we’re already pretty loaded with guys, but we need to spend more money somewhere and I’d prefer to do that on minimum deals on guys who don’t need much PT and might help in the locker room and during practice. Plus, Wilkens seems to be in good with the coaches as we saw those pictures from summer league that TA posted last week.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Would you be in favor
of signing Wilkins to a Cardinal-like deal, where he doesn’t get many minutes but can provide leadership in the locker room and maybe some help in practice?
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Assuming we had roster spots to fill...
I would be completely in favor of offering Wilkins AND Cardinal league-minimum, 1-year contracts… kind of like assistant coaches on the floor who will be good glue-guys.
If they don’t want to play that role, they can always tell us to “Fuck Off”, but I think they’d like to have another NBA contract of any sort. The alternative is probably retire or go play with Rick Rickert in Australia.
It seems to be a reasonable representation
of players value:
Win Shares Per 48 Minutes
1. LeBron James-CLE 0.299
2. Kevin Durant-OKC 0.238
3. Dwyane Wade-MIA 0.224
4. Dwight Howard-ORL 0.223
5. Pau Gasol-LAL 0.220
6. Manu Ginobili-SAS 0.216
7. Tim Duncan-SAS 0.215
8. Dirk Nowitzki-DAL 0.194
9. Nene Hilario-DEN 0.188
10. Al Horford-ATL 0.183
11. Chauncey Billups-DEN 0.182
12. Chris Bosh-TOR 0.182
13. Amare Stoudemire-PHO 0.181
14. Brandon Roy-POR 0.180
15. Anderson Varejao-CLE 0.179
16. Steve Nash-PHO 0.178
17. Carlos Boozer-UTA 0.178
18. Deron Williams-UTA 0.177
19. Gerald Wallace-CHA 0.177
20. J.J. Redick-ORL 0.173
Not sure if it has everybody all up in arms...
it’s just a little bit surprising. Not a huge deal. At least I don’t think so.
But, numbers 1, 3, and 8 are matters that Kevin Love can work on, himself. Acquiring point guards and wings shouldn’t be things that draw out the negative attention of Love, unless he’d prefer that we keep the guy starting over him or trade for his replacement.
Love and Rambis
I was surprised no one ever mentioned Rambis and Love sitting together at the finals, especially when folks thought he might be traded. Did anyone else see this on ABC? Can’t remember which game it was. Clearly there is some level of relationship building. I agree Love needs to mature, but its a process and it appears that the FO or at least coach recognize their role in it.
It has been mentioned...
often in other discussions.
by Krotz the Wall on Jul 22, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I really don't get the Love-bashing
I will grant that he has a tendency to respond to interview questions with more frankness, and perhaps with an eye toward entertaining his interviewer rather than playing the humble employee, but he has said in these last interviews that:
1. while he sees his role as being a leader on the team with Jefferson gone, he achknowledges that he will need to grow up to assume that role.
2. Beasely is a good kid, will succeed in the league, and he thinks it will be fun to play with him.
3. He is really looking forward to playing with Ridnour.
4. He is optimistic to the point that he expects the team to win more than 30 games this year.
This demand for humility is odd to me. He thinks he can be a star in this league. I’m glad. I wouldn’t want him to think anything else. It’s like the advice that he says he got from Charles Barkley. Always say you want to start. Not just behind closed doors. Always hang it out there.
Do you think Love
would get mad if he was compared to Darko?
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
by Mplax on Jul 22, 2010 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't think this deserved a fanshot, but apparently
LA is making a move for Barnes… ummm…. what?
Are they really going to steal him at less than $2M? Cleveland is in the running too, obviously offering more money and less wins. I’d like to offer him at least $4M to play 2/3 for us.
Also, just posted a couple other fanshots about Kahn on Beasley/McCants/Rider comparison and also CP3 wanting out of NO.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Orlando
was 6.6 points better with him on the court than when he was off of it… just some food for thought.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Barnes was pretty close to signing with Toronto, so I'm guessing the
winning piece might not be his #1 priority over money. I agree that he’d look good on the Wolves and $4 mil isn’t too bad. I’d be in favor of that move.
Actively looking for red flags since my 5th grade traveling team
Gotta hit the league minimum somehow!
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
always liked Barnes
wasn’t he a key role for GS in that wonderful Mavs series where the Warriors ran them out of the building? Man did I love watching that team.
I think I’m right on the Barnes thing, if only there was a magic box where I could look this information up
Summer League is irrelevant unless it validates my opinion
by Son of Gerald Green on Jul 22, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Barnes can probably defend them
So he could play some minutes there. I think he is one of the truly excellent role players in the league, and as a Celtics/Wolves fan I have been irritated that the C’s have not made a run at him, especially after losing Tony Allen. Every minute Vince Carter was on the floor with Barnes on the bench it was a win for the C’s. And if he’d play here for $4 Million, that is one of those value deals that Kahn seems to like. Sign the beast.
by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Jul 22, 2010 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
He doesn't get minutes there at least
but he did pretty damn well guarding [one of] the best two[s] in the game. And I usually worry more about position when we are playing defense. Otherwise I just subscribe to Kahn’s theory that we have wings and not SGs and SFs, per se.
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
Barnes can put the clamps on Kobe
Are we even looking at him? We need a star stopper.
"You must submit to supreme suffering in order to discover the completion of joy."
John Calvin
by WillistonCoyote on Jul 22, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions
Anybody know? What did we get for Booker & N'Diaye?
"You must submit to supreme suffering in order to discover the completion of joy."
John Calvin
by WillistonCoyote on Jul 22, 2010 6:53 PM CDT reply actions
Thanks. Good move.
"You must submit to supreme suffering in order to discover the completion of joy."
John Calvin
by WillistonCoyote on Jul 23, 2010 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Toronto Kung Fu
Kung Fu Procyonid is some, overmuch, much fitter than the notice would subdivision you to conceive. Strange, intelligent and visually sumptuous, this is a terrific kung fu illustration that virtuous happens to grapheme conversation animals instead of anthropoid beings. Make in whatsoever penetrative enounce touch by Tool Mordant, Dustin Hoffman, Ian McShane and the marvellous Philosopher Hong.
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