1992 Dream Team vs. 2008 Redeem Team
by ynotsema2 on Sep 7, 2010 9:44 PM CDT
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PrintI had a discussion earlier today with my younger brother about this topic. We both concluded that the original Dream Team was far superior to the Redeem Team. But how much better? If we somehow were able to manipulate the space-time continuum to make it so that it was simultaneously 1992 and 2008 to allow for those two teams to square off in a seven game series to be played in a neutral arena in Asgabat, Turkmenistan (roughly the midway point between Barcelona and Beijing), what would be the outcome of the series?
The roster for the Dream Team is (not necessarily in terms of starters and backups):
C - Patrick Ewing; David Robinson (I'll refrain from listing Magic Johnson as a Center)
PF - Charles Barkley; Karl Malone; Christian Laettner
SF - Scottie Pippen; Larry Bird; Chris Mullin
SG - Michael Jordan; Clyde Drexler
PG - Magic Johnson; John Stockton
With Chuck Daly as the coach.
The roster for the Redeem Team is (again, as above):
C - Dwight Howard; Chris Bosh
PF - Carlos Boozer; Carmelo Anthony
SF - Lebron James; Tayshaun Prince
SG - Kobe Bryant; Dwyane Wade; Michael Redd
PG - Jason Kidd; Chris Paul; Deron Williams
With Mike Krzyzewski as the coach.
Would the Redeem Team even win a game?
What would the storyline of each game look like in this clash of epic proportions?
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imagine
Kidd, Paul Williams Howard or Bosh trying to guard Magic Johnson or just the front court match up in general.
by Twolves for ever and ever on Sep 7, 2010 11:03 PM CDT reply actions
Dream team would have won but not a fair comparison
In 1992 the best players all wanted to play and did (minus Christian Laettner). In 2008 the best players did not all play.
Imagine this line-up:
Center: D. Howard; C. Bosh; Shaq
Power Forward: Kevin Garnett; TIm Duncan
Small Forward: Lebron; Paul Pierce
Two Guard: Kobe; D-Wade
Point Guard: CP3; D-Will; J-Kidd
Granted Shaq, KG and Duncan were all on downswings I think this roster could give the dream team a serious run for their money. They at least win at the power forward spot and would be close at all others minus maybe the point.
I'd vote for your Redeem Team anytime
Modern players are usually better than “classic” players. The more recent players are generically better because they’re playing at a higher level against tougher competition as a result of the game evolving and players improving.
No autopsy, no foul.
What isn't calculated for in this scenario
is the difference in competition at the international level. The biggest advantage the Dream Team has is that the Redeem Team had to go small to be able to match up with their opponents. There’s simply no way the Dream Team fails to dominate the glass and bully them to death inside. Lebron James is a significant advantage, but one guy isn’t going to kill them.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
In what possible world would Lebron be a significant advantage?
He’d matched up versus Larry Bird or the best perimeter defender of a very good era of basketball in Scottie Pippen. If you’re talking boards he would have a decent advantage but not significant. And if you’re talking offensively then wouldn’t Jordan be a significant advantage?
I think I’d still take LeBron’s freakish athleticism and sheer physical strength as a significant advantage on the offensive end over either Bird or Pippen. But those two would definitely score their share against him as well.
I think at every other position the Dream Team has a decided advantage. Jordan in 1992 was much better than Kobe in 2008. Jordan was still in his prime back then whereas Kobe was slightly past his prime in 2008. I can understand somebody making the argument for Kobe being a better player for his career than Jordan was (although I doubt anybody would argue that Kobe will have a better career than Jordan – in terms of MVP’s and everything else), but to try to argue that Jordan in his prime wasn’t as good as Kobe past his prime seems ludicrous to me.
Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric? That's ridiculous! I would never have traded Sam Cassell for Marko Jaric.
- Sam Cassell on McHale's decisions while running the Timberwolves.
Larry Bird was a much better rebounder than Lebron.
Although Larry would not defend Lebron well at all, Larry would definitely out-rebound him.
by princelyfrank on Sep 9, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't forget that this was Larry's last action
His back was nearly completely blown out.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
This is like one of those "Vote for a generic (on party) or (the other) polls.
Tell me, which player of today do you think is better than Michael Jordan in a matchup? Which PG today do you take over Magic Johnson? Which center has the edge on the Admiral?
The point makes more sense in outline than it does in specifics, for me. There’s a huge difference between George Mikan and Shaq, but 1992 and today? Not so much.
I know I might get roasted for this on here
but I actually think – gulp – Prime Kobe is a better player than Prime Jordan. I think he could best him in a head-to-head matchup.
I think it's competitive
but Jordan rips his heart out (with his much bigger hands) and Kobe is catatonic for weeks afterward.
I would drive 10 miles to hear fucktwats sing.
It would be interesting. Breaking space/time for basketball matchups would be the only way to know how much better NBA players have become over the years. Since I think we have to make cross-era comparisons relative, even if Kobe is better than MJ, MJ could still be the best player ever. Weird to think of it that way, but I’m not sure we have a better way to look at it.
I still think MJ wins that matchup, but it’s closer than a straight up historical comparison is.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Even if we called that a wash, which is probably tilted toward Kobe in terms of general opinion,
what does that do to the “Players today are better across the board” position?
It would pretty much totally confirm it, right? I mean, Kobe is nowhere near as dominant as Jordan was and if Kobe is the better player, it’d have to be a result of weaker competition in Jordan’s era.
Though, Jordan doing what he did against defenses before the hand checking rules were in place makes me think he’d still be the better player of the two. Even if the talent was weaker, the rules were tougher on scorers in MJ’s day.
heart of a champion, will of the warrior.
Optimus Jordan vs. Optimus Kobe
The ego battle between the two would be worth the price of admission.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
Honestly, I'd much rather watch either:
LBJ against Pippen;
or
Dr. J vs. Larry Bird, which was an old, old, old video game.
Kobe
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
NBA centers in 1991-92 vs. last season:
(Using PER as the quick thumbnail sketch to sort the list, and only including players with 1500+ minutes.)
Dream Team Era:
David Robinson
Olajuwon
Daugherty (who was dang good before his injury, very versatile and smart)
Patrick Ewing
Moses Malone
Robert Parish
(Rik Smits – probably not a citizen)
Rony Seikaly
Mutumbo
….
Does anyone want to make the argument that David Robinson would have a problem matching up with any of his peers today? He was Dwight Howard with a lot more skill.
Last year:
Dwight Howard
Duncan (as a 4/5)
(Bogut – Aussie)
Bynum
Brook Lopez
Al Horford
(Marc Gasol – Spanish)
Camby
Noah
Dalembert
Kaman
Okafor
Hibbert
Brendan Haywood
Kendrick Perkins
Spencer Hawes
I think Duncan in his prime would have torn apart the Admiral
and I think Howard would hold his own.
In a big game I'd probably take Duncan > Robinson > Howard
In no way does Robinson give up even a smidge of athleticism to anyone, though.
Howard is a shaky offensive player for a franchise cornerstone. In my imagination Robinson blocks 6+ that night.
We talk about the athleticism and physical specimens today, and maybe training’s improved and gotten all scientific-al, but dang: David Robinson, Shawn Kemp, Karl Malone…. I’m not sure I’m seeing that edge, or how it results in much better players anyway.
Yeah, those guys were great athletes
and yeah, Howard’s not a great offensive player, but I think Howard could stop Robinson on the other end.
I don't think NBA centers..
…play as well in FIBA as we think of them in the NBA. Pick and roll uber alles in FIBA…as Russia showed in the 1st half today.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I concur
and also note that the NBA center from 1992 was a more predominate part of the game than they are in 2010.
Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)
by frankenhoops on Sep 11, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Power Forward, then vs. now
1991-92:
Karl Malone
Shawn Kemp
Larry Nance (man Cleveland had a frontcourt)
Horace Grant
Pervis Ellison (Never nervous!)
Danny Manning
Kevin Willis
Derrick Coleman
(Detlef Shrempf – Deutsche)
John “Hot Rod” Williams
Terry Cummings
Armen Gilliam
Last year:
Bosh
Duncan
(Paul Gasol – Spanish)
(Nowitzki – Deutsche, Ja?)
Stoudemire
David Lee
Boozer
Z. Randolph
Josh Smith
Kevin Love
Garnett
Al Jefferson
Carl Landry….
Today's power forwards win by a considerable margin here, right?
After Malone and Kemp, the drop off is pretty great. Besides, Kevin Love is on the bottom list, which automatically gives the Redeem Team the win, no matter who else is playing.
(I went down as far as that to notice Garnett sandwiched between our two PFs last year. Yikes.)
Leaving alone cocaine habits and fathering children out of wedlock, I’d take Shawn Kemp above Chris Bosh a lot of times in a row. Duncan gets a big edge on Malone, though.
Past that, where are the US-eligible great players? Larry Nance was an All Star level guy, but no HOF’er. Horace Grant was a great defensive garbage guy. Those are definitely role players on any dream team. Still, the last-year team goes Bosh, Duncan (past his prime, but whatever), and then “Stat,” whom I’m not sure we’d have taken over Danny Manning in a healthy season. Manning was Odom-like, only more of a team centerpiece when he could play. Maybe I’m just not a huge far of Amare’s.
I don't think STAT is a HOF'er or anything
but I think if it were me, I’d take him or Boozer over anyone on the top list except for Kemp, Malone and maybe Nance. I was never that impressed by Manning. Maybe I’m underrating him.
he's not on the list
but I’d put Rodman on STAT and call it a day.
I would drive 10 miles to hear fucktwats sing.
Oops. I search by height and "Forward" as the position.
Charles Barkley didn’t even appear on that list from ’91-2.
If we’re pretty generous with Boozer we could say they’re roughly analogous types, anyway.
Not to mention Christian Laetner
How did he not make the list!
I think...
…the role of the PF has changed so much over the last 10 years that it makes this comparison hard. It’s turned into an athletic monster position in the NBA, but with FIBA they need positional flexibility more than anything else.
Forever splitting the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs
www.canishoopus.com
I'd take the Redeem Team
and to be quite honest, I don’t even think it would be that close (and by not close I mean 5pts… which I go into more below).
I hands down think that Lebron is a better basketball player than Michael Jordan ever was. That said I think Michael Jordan is still the greatest player of all time… and most likely always will. I just don’t see Bird being the same player he was back then. I’d give him Kevin Love status. I think Kidd in his prime would do a fine job of guarding Magic in his prime (though it’s obviously more just about slowing him down than stopping him).
Someone already made the point of using the best players even if they didn’t play so I think Duncan and KG would easily outduel the PFs from the Dream Team (I also don’t think Chuck would be a great rebounder when going up against other great rebounders who have a half a foot on him.
Stockton and Magic are great and all, but don’t they kind of take away from Jordan a bit? Whereas I think Kidd would be a great complement to a Kobe/James combo with KG/Duncan and Howard manning the frontcourt.
I think the PF spot is a significant weakness on the Redeem Team, so not using guys like KG and Duncan and I think the Dream Team takes it, but using the best against the best and I think Redeem (or… the Redeem Extreme if we are adding better players) wins it by an avg of 5 if they played 100 games. If we can take players in their primes, I’m guessing the backups can be upgraded significantly over Prince, Melo, Boozer, and Redd.
And that’s not even including Shaq. If you give me prime Shaq I’m taking the Redeem Extreme Team by 10 every night. I still think Shaq was and is (not that he is today, but I still consider him the most dominant) the most dominant player to ever play the game (again, Jordan is the greatest and some other guys are better, but Shaq was just a manimal).
Kidd/DWill/CP3
Kobe/Wade/Battier?
James/Pierce/Artest?
KG/Duncan (I’m leaving KG first… deal with it)
Shaq/Howard
That team is just scary in every single aspect of the game. The only place I see for improvement might be in the threes. So maybe I’d have Ray Allen and Battier instead of Artest and Battier?
You're not letting natural selection take its course! You're like the guy who invented the seatbelt...
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