Perfecting the Art of Losing
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 3, 2011 9:56 PM CST
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PrintOK, let's start with the elephant in the room. After getting a few yelps out after watching it go down in real time, it's hard to blame Kurt Rambis for calling a timeout with 10 seconds left in the game and a streaking/unguarded Wes Johnson headed towards the opposite rim. It's hard to blame Kurt Rambis for drawing up an in-bounds play that let loose a wide-open Luke Ridnour in the lane with time running down to nothing.
On a more macro level, it's hard to blame David Kahn for handing out a decent contract to a reasonably productive 7 footer. It's hard to blame the POBO for understanding the dynamics of the Ricky Rubio situation and taking a point guard with a second consecutive pick. It's hard to blame Kahn for taking a flier on Michael Beasley in order to play him at the 3. It's hard to blame him for taking a chance on Martel Webster to play out on the wing.
And so goes the problem with the franchise.
The Timberwolves can be explained and rationalized away with each individual move; yet, taken as a whole, they are a mess. Not only are they a collection of nice individual stories that cannot seem to make its way into a solid tale of team success, but they are the NBA equivalent (on a number of levels) of the island of misfit toys--a mystifying (yet somehow entertaining) collection of justifiable individual decisions that have added themselves up to a big bowl of frustrating nothing.
It's games like the ones against the Celtics where I can't help but to think that if the Wolves simply played the odds--if they simply decided to not get cute--that they would be worlds better off than what they are in the here and now. Yeah, Darko has a reasonable contract, but you know what, we're going to not try and get something out of a player that has teased several franchises. Yeah, the Rambis offense could work in theory but we're going to run a two man pick and roll game between Kevin Love and Michael Beasley down the stretch. Yeah, Luke Ridnour got the ball while being wide-open (and, to be fair, he probably wasn't the first option) but we're going to dump the ball to Beasley in the backcourt and let our chips fall where they may with the guy who clearly wants it and who can deliver, not a career backup point guard.
This was the most frustrating loss of the year. It goes right to the top of the list over the Spurs debacle, the Clippers blow out, and whatever punch-to-the-gut loss you can think of. The Wolves were facing a dinged up Celtics squad, who were on the 2nd night of a back-to-back and who had clearly taken an approach to the game that they were going to try and outmuscle the good guys at every available opportunity in order to win. By sheer grit, the Wolves hung in when the goings were tough, even building up a nice lead in the 2nd half by controlling the boards and getting to the line against a squad that could seemingly get away with whatever thuggery they could cook up in their green minds.
For the better part of the game Kevin Love was able to outrebound the entire Celtics squad. Michael Beasley overcame early (and questionable) foul trouble to work himself into a nice mid-range groove down the stretch. Wes Johnson overcame an early-game inability to work through a labyrinth of screens following Ray Allen around the court to play solid two-way ball. The Wolves guards even were able to (sometimes) identify clear and obvious mismatches and get the proper guy the ball.
Then it all fell away. Just like it always does.
I'll leave it to y'all to come up with an explanation as to why this team is so predictable even in the face of good individual stories and short vignettes of competent action. I'm sure there are several reasonable conclusions: They're young. They play a complicated system. They just need to learn how to play with each other. And so on and so forth.
Each of these rationales are, duh, reasonable on their own and I hope that they allow the most optimistic of fan reason enough to continue to believe. I myself am holding on to the hope that a light goes off in Rambis' head that tells him he needs to hitch his wagon to a Love/Beasley two man game, and/or to pull a card out of Lionel Hollins' book and ride his main horses hard. My mind has told me all year that this team doesn't--and cannot--make sense. Yet, there are moments, and there are individuals that still make me want to believe--that still entertain me and keep me coming back. I'm ready to line up for another run at Lucy's football because one of these times, it just has to click...right?
Random game thoughts:
- I started off the game paying attention to nothing but the Beasley/Pierce matchup. I thought it would be a good gauge of how Beasley is coming along on both ends of the court. Beasley started off well and watching this matchup was instructive for a few reasons. First, to show how little Beasley is run off of any sort of motion action in the offense. Second, to see how a scorer like Pierce is utilized early in the game to get him going (they run a lot of screens). Third, to get a sense of how much Pierce was going to bring it on the back end of a back-to-back (he started off half-heartedly trying to fight his way through traffic). Unfortunately, Beasley picked up a few quick fouls and this experiment was ended too quickly.
- Tommy Heinsohn put in a ridiculous performance. It was grating to listen to his almost child-like bemusement and disbelief that anyone not in Celtic green could perform even the most basic of basketball plays. He spent the entire game bitching about the refs only to end the game saying "I like that ref" when bailed out on a traveling call that could have been issued any number of times against his favorite team during the game and season. This game really puts into perspective just how good of a color analyst Jim Petersen is.
- There are times in the game where the Wolves seem like they are going to start running some traditional 2 man pick and roll action but then quickly devolve into incoherent triangular nonsense. The most blatant example of the night was when Love and Webster--which should be a relatively dynamic duo for the Wolves in this sort of action--set up on the left wing with Love setting a hand off screen for Webster. The two passed it back and forth like a hot potato, not being sure of what to do with the ball in such an obvious situation. They eventually did the triangly thing and kicked it across the floor, negating any advantage they may of had with a traditional two man game.
- I think Corey Brewer is one of the most likable guys on the team and in the league but his offensive liability was especially troubling tonight. The Celtics simply didn't give a lick about him on the defensive end and no amount of decent defense (he got away with a lot on Ray Allen, FWIW) can make up for what he gives up offensively.
- I shudder to think of what this game would have looked like from a physical/mugging standpoint had KG played. At one point in the game, Tommy H bemoaned the fact that a Celtics player got called for boxing out while facing his man. The sad thing here is not that Tommy doesn't know that this is a foul, but that he has become so accustomed to it not being called, that...well, it is amazing to me to think that Baby Davis is considered a functional NBA player when you focus in on what he does on a play-by-play basis. It's wrestling.
Well folks, that's about all I have to say about tonight's game. I keep thinking that one of these times the good guys are going to turn a Groundhog into an Independence Day but that payoff just never seems to come on down the pike. I can try to talk myself into believing individual stories but the end result is just to predictable. Something needs to change. They cannot continue to bang their heads against the wall and expect a different result. There will always be an excuse for each individual game or play that doesn't work in their favor. It's getting harder and harder to ignore the gross (in multiple senses of the word) results.
Until later.
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Wow
I loved this post S-N-P. The only thing I would have changed is I would not run a two man game with Love and Beasley. I would run it with Beasley and Webster. while love should get the board if one of them misses. Rambis does get too cute for my taste.
by chuckd@79 on Jan 3, 2011 10:12 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
That is incredibly inciteful.
Working two scorers into a pick and roll or pick and pop scenario while our best rebounder maintains his rebounding position just makes sense. I wonder why it doesn’t happen more often and can only think that maybe Beasley doesn’t know how to set a screen or roll off a screen. If that’s not the case, then they should be trying that much more often.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Inciteful? LOL
This just in – Mannix:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/chris_mannix/01/04/kevin.love/index.html
"One good PG away from getting over the hump"
As frustrating as this year is
I really believe that in 2011-2012 we will compete for 40 wins and the playoffs. This might seem hard to believe when we win 20-22 games this year. I do think a year more of guys playing together along with Rubio plus a Lottery Pick is going to make a big difference.
The negative is Jonny Flynn is cover your eyes bad out on the court. His behind the back to Brewer on a Fast Break in the 1st Half was horrific.
Here's where I take my big negative turn
Let’s say the Wolves get to 25 wins this year. That’s pretty much where the Al Jefferson/Kevin McHale Wolves left off (24 wins). What GM couldn’t have taken Love + Jefferson and all those picks and achieved roughly the same trajectory? Rubio + a lottery pick is probably the same end result of any PG but Flynn + a lottery pick. Kahn still is in the same spot as McHale was: he needs a basketball Jesus and he’s probably not going to get one.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
To be fair
We haven’t exactly gotten lucky in the lottery either. With a Wall or a Griffin, the team would be looking a lot better. Instead they’re left to pick at whatever is left in the Flynn’s and Johnson’s of the world.
But considering that, he’s done a good job of making the team flexible and gathering players with more potential then McHale ever did. It’s not there yet but I still think it’s unfair to judge it just yet.
I think Wall and/or Griffin qualify
…for the Basketball Jesus card.
I guess I just don’t see how he’s done anything to improve the flexibility or potential over what was being done with the HoiBabCock trio.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
That is makes a team like the thunder, bulls
good teams right away. The nba is a players league if you win the lottery you look smarter than what you really are. I think the Gm for bulls overrated. but since he got rose it makes him seem smarter than what he is.
If anyone is overrated...
…I’d argue that it’s Presti. I’ll give him credit for Westbrook but he lucked into Durant, wasted a pick on Green (basically) and again got lucky with Ibaka. His other picks haven’t looked all that great and he hasn’t made any sort of concerted effort to make that last deal to put them over the edge.
Pritchard always got the same criticism, although where he loved his players to death Presti apparently has a death grip on any capspace he gets.
10000000000000++
His only genius to me was picking Westbrook. Green is ok and Ibaka is something you can get out of the D league. ie a energy guy that can play defense James harden ? over tyreke evans.
If Ibaka is something you can get out of the D league...
Why don’t we have a Serge Ibaka on the team? Tolliver is the only player similar and it’s not really close between them. And Tyreke would be terrible on that team. I’m not necessarily sticking up for Presti, but Ibaka and passing on Tyreke aren’t mistakes.
Yes, that comment was a little too far...
…but really, all he did with Ibaka was take a chance on a player that happened to work out. He did the exact same thing with Mullens and that’s fallen on it’s face. Take enough chances and you’re going to find something eventually.
I don’t know if the jury’s out on Harden yet, but you’re right that Evans wouldn’t be much better for that team.
But, but, Cole Aldrich! And Nick Collison!
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 3, 2011 11:15 PM CST up reply actions
can you imagine a team
with westbrook Durant and tyreke evans. The could have won the west sooner rather than later.
I'm actually not a fan of Tyreke, but I'm with you that Harden seems pretty busty.
I actually think DeMar Derozen wouldn’t have been that bad a pick there.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 3, 2011 11:23 PM CST up reply actions
I am not a fan of DeMar Derozen
but I would rather roll with him than James Harden. Guys that are not athletes scare me. DeMar Derozen is a freak of an athlete. If he learns how to play the game he could be better than tyreke evans, curry.
Harden's far from a bust
He’s on a hot streak at the moment, the Thunder just need to keep giving him PT instead of going for Corey Brewer, I mean Thabo Sefolosha.
Harden’s going to be a real nice player.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I would take Harden
Basically the same player as Martell…
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html
PER of over 15 while having a TS of nearly 60%. +9 on Otrg/Drtg differential. 2 years younger than Wes Johnson, too. Sorry, that last part was gratuitous. ;)
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
James Harden
is a pretty classic example of an excellent player’s contributions being masked by playing lesser minutes on an excellent team. He would easily be the Wolves second best perimeter player and when you factor in defense (where his is quite good) he’s likely better than Beasley.
Most of this board would take OJ Mayo over Harden in a heartbeat. And, well, that says a ton.
I'd probably think about it longer than you would, but I would ultimately side with Harden over Mayo
But, OKC wasn’t looking for a solid bench player with the 3rd pick. It’d be nice if he’d beat out Sefolosha already and get a chance to be another example of the Milsap Doctrine, amirite?
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 4, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
He's been better than Thabo since they drafted him
I believe the Thunder like Thabo’s defense and, presumably, the fact that he’s more seasoned. Harden is clearly more talented and is the key to them taking another step. He should be the starting 2 there within a year and will easily displace Green as their #3 guy. Check out his splits for December when it started clicking: 14/3rb/2.4ast/1.3 steals on 8ish shots with 1 TO in 27 minutes.
He’s definitely going to be more than a bench player. Remember that he’s barely 21.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Plus
his beard is freakin awesome.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
His beard is freaking awesome
opposed to Ryan Seacreast’s beard, who is Julianna Hough…I guess that’s freaking awesome too.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 4, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
Just look at this pic
And try not to smile. I dare you!
Best profile pic in the league. Straight out of the 70’s!
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
He has some ABA in him.
Hopefully, he has no ABBA in him.
You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus
by Cynical Jason on Jan 4, 2011 5:10 PM CST up reply actions
Harden is loads better than Mayo
Like SnP said, his efficiency is really impressive because he’s a great 3pt shooter AND he can get to the line. Not many guys combine those traits, but it makes him a plus offensive player even if he shoots poorly overall from the floor (which will go up). All that plus he can fill the box score. He passes, rebounds and gets steals like a beast.
Once he gets more minutes and a more consistent role I expect him to be a world-class glue guy for them. The #3 guy who makes things run with his passing and very unflashy off-ball contributions, kind of like a perimeter K Love.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Yep, Harden is pretty good
He’s a guy that’s probably being underrated due to a lower FG%—but as you note, he’s a very efficient player because of his 3pt shooting and ability to get to the line. If he were on the Wolves, he’d immediately be the best 2-guard on the team (and he’s only 21).
That's downplaying
the decision made by the Bulls gm to pass on Beasley (who appeared to be an interior scoring machine coming out of college – i.e: the exact piece the Bulls were missing) in favor of taking Rose.
As for Presti, forget about what he did with Durant – because he was lucky enough to get the #2 pick instead of the #1 and thereby avoid Greg Oden – and focus on what he’s done since that point. Russell Westbrook was taken with the #4 pick of that draft. And he was taken to play a position that he didn’t actually play for his college team (Darren Collison was the point guard for UCLA – in front of both Westbrook and, later, Jrue Holiday). After hitting on Westbrook – who is playing like a top-15 player in the league this year, btw – he went conservative with James Harden rather than taking Tyreke Evans. While Evans may be a better individual player than Harden, I think Presti deserves credit for staying away from a player that would have completely disrupted the flow of the offense for that team in favor of a guy whose skill set complements both Durant and Westbrook. He deserves the credit that he gets even when you take the monumental gift of Durant out of the equation.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
by ynotsema2 on Jan 4, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
Presti should be bashed the same way Kahn is for Flynn. you draft a guy 3rd to come off the bench. while missing out on the rookie of the year. the S-N-P doctrine says take the bpa. Evens to me was th BPA at that point. Westbrook Durant and Evens. That is your big 3 right there
The S-N-P doctrine does not state take the BPA.
It states that a franchise that is without a superstar should not be cute about its draft picks, instead it should take the BPA in the hopes of that player becoming a superstar. After finding a superstar, the draft should be used to add pieces around that superstar. The BPA out of that draft FOR THE Thunder would have been Blake Griffin. The next BPA FOR THE Thunder probably would have been Hasheem Thabeet. After that, it’s Harden. After Harden, Stephen Curry – to be used almost exclusively as a shooting guard because they already had their point guard. Evans would have been entirely redundant on that team. The Thunder already had a guy whose offensive game looks a lot like Evans’, only better. His name is Russell Westbrook. And he plays better defense than Evans, too.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Harden's only a bench player b/c they like Thabo's D
Not because he isn’t talented enough. He’ll be starting within the year.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Well, for starters...
…I don’t remember having this kind of flexibility in the KG days. Admittedly most of the cap was taken up by KG and his money whore of a contract, but still, Kahn hasn’t really handed out any contracts on the level of Troy Hudson yet so I’ll give him some credit there.
I think you could also argue that he’s gotten more draft picks then the McHale crew ever did. Whether he’s used them right is debatable, but it’s still important for a rebuilding team.
Kahn didn't walk into a bare cupboard
McHale left him some first-round picks. Just saying…
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I'm not saying he did...
…but really, a lot of it was Kahn. Getting the 5th pick for scraps sticks out the most to me.
Kahn ain't got nuthin yet
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Basketball Jesus
If Kahn decides that a Rubio/Love/Beasley lineup can win the West won’t he will have to commit most of their available cap space to resigning Love/Beasley. Which leads me to ask, where is the money to pay Basketball Jesus going to come from? Especially if the owners are sucessful in getting a hard salary cap.
they're a trio of many names
;)
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
"The Triumvirate"
Though it would have helped if Glen had behaved consistently like a Crassus to back ’em up.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I disagree that Kahn's Wolves have had bad lottery luck
In 2010, the draft was highly regarded as a four player draft, and the wolves luckily got pick number 4. Kahn just decided to pick someone outside the top four.
In 2009, the draft was 6 players deep. Rubio luckily fell into his lap (after many posters suggested trading Love + pick for Rubio). Kahn decided to pick someone outside the top 6 with his pick number 6.
I don’t see a lot of bad luck in the lottery. I see a lot of good luck getting draft pick number N in an N-deep draft.
by ThisIsForSota on Jan 4, 2011 12:34 AM CST up reply actions
Clearly, Cousins is proving that it was not a 4-player draft after all.
In fact, right now, it’s looking like a 1-player draft. 2 if you include Landry Fields.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
2010 was a consensus 4-player deep draft
Everyone and their mother agreed that the draft was 4 players deep. Kahn just thought he was smarter than everyone else.
by ThisIsForSota on Jan 4, 2011 1:20 AM CST up reply actions
Well, so far, he's at least as smart as everyone else
because everyone and their mother were wrong.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
The point being, I wouldn't say the wolves have bad draft luck
When you get pick #N in an N-deep draft (twice in a row), that sounds like good luck. When Ricky Rubio falls to a draft pick you obtained trading away two expiring contracts, that’s good luck.
by ThisIsForSota on Jan 4, 2011 1:32 AM CST up reply actions
Not really...
…Rubio falling was lucky, but I wouldn’t consider it having good draft luck. Having good draft luck would have been winning the coin toss with Memphis and picking Rubio 2nd outright.
And as for this year, it clearly wasn’t a 4 player draft. Maybe “analysts” thought it was, but it was basically Wall then groups of similar prospects the rest of the way.
I would say the Wolves have had bad lottery luck.
Yes, they may have gotten pick N in an N-player draft. However, if they’re the team with the 2nd or 4th worst record in the league and drop down to 4th or 6th in the draft, how is that not bad luck even if the draft in those years had 4 or 6 players, respectively? They haven’t been as unlucky as they could have been, but that’s a far cry from having good luck.
FTR, I don’t remember whether we had the 3rd, 4th, or 5th worst record when we landed the #6 pick two drafts ago, but the point remains the same.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
I not sure everyone was wrong
Cousins may still come out on top before he needs an extension. He’s put up some nice games lately. The red flags that dropped hims from 1 or 2 are real, but it’s way too early to say he won’t end up being a great player on his rookie contract.
What, you mean 35 games isn't enough to pronounce final judgment on a year's draft class?
The heck you say.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Yep. That's why I said
“so far” he’s at least as smart as everyone else. A lot could change. I expect Turner to get better. I expected Favors will play a larger role. Cousins might get his act together. Wes could breakout.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
"Clearly, Cousins is proving that it was not a 4-player draft after all."
35 games into many draft years, there’s only one player really shining, or maybe two. Steph Curry was looking like a real mediocrity at this time last season.
ThisIsForSota’s basic point, that the Wolves have at least been getting picks at the trailing edge of the “sweet spot” in recent drafts, seems basically true to me. #3 and Mayo was not perceived to be a horrible spot in which to land, and McHale (and the FO triumvirate of the time) used his favorable lottery result to squeeze Mike Miller out of Memphis and to unload contracts like that of Jaric. That wasn’t an “accursed” lottery outcome.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
He's had a good week or so...
and has had other good games along the way. He’s also been booted from practice and made himself a PTI favorite with the ridiculous choking thing (in a game that his team, ironically, choked away).
Roller coaster continues.
Yep
Its peaks and valleys are definitely far apart.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
I'll be honest here.....
….I’m not sure Rambis could have handled DMC. As it was, Paul Westphal had reached the breaking point with the kid and if things had not turned as they have it might have gone very very badly.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Depends on whether DMC continues to take his meds
Is he on meds? I dunno, but if I were Westphal that’s what I would have prescribed, and if I were DMCs agent, I would have encouraged it.
It could go bad....
…but I doubt it less & less. Again, and I’m not anti-Wolves or pro-Kings in my statement here: I don’t think Cousins and Love really would have complemented each other. I’m glad I was wrong about Cousins, and I’m also glad that I knew as much about him as I did. I’d be more frustrated with him if I didn’t know beforehand how difficult he would be. In many ways, I’m pleased that it hasn’t been easy because it could plant the seeds that keep the drive and fire burning within him.
Now to switch gears a bit….
The thing that I think holds this Wolves team back is a creative mind in the coaching staff to take advantage of the talent that is now in Minny. Love, Beasley, Johnson, Webster, possibly Rubio, another high pick in the ‘11 draft, among other things. Love and Beasley are really PF’s (although Love can play C IMO and would be better there—and Beasley is a mis-match nightmare at the 4 if he ever put it all together; which is admittedly a stretch at this point), and Johnson is probably better at the 3 than the 2 in more matchup’s. And, it’s also needing to be noted that Love would have to make that commitment to play the 5 and Beasley would have to commit to the 4 as well.
This is a very interesting team despite the warts that Taylor, Kahn and Rambis possess (not to mention the players). However, with DeMarcus Cousins on it I don’t know how well his game fits with Love, and his personality is such that it really took 2 months of Paul Westphal tugging at DMC just to get him to not step on his own shadow. This kid has a great deal of talent, and skills, but he is equally as difficult to deal with. I’m not sure that the Wolves organization would have been successful developing him. And, if they were willing to commit to push him to his greatest heights, it’s worth asking: If you had to trade Love or DMC to improve your team if they didn’t complement each other, would the Wolves brass have the cojones to go about doing that? Given the past history of all involved, I would be guessing no at this point. (Also, to be fair, it’s not like I’m all that accurate at guessing at what happens with other teams.)
Winning in the NBA is a ridiculously complicated process. And only a few teams at any given team really perfect it. Unfortunately for the Wolves, I think Glen Taylor hasn’t learned his lessons from years past and this will continue to inflict them moving forward. You can slice this any way you want, and I know yall have around here, but Taylor is still the worm in this here apple even if Rambis and Kahn are the worms wiggling on the service of said apple.
I think at this point you have to consider what BPA means and where it applies to each team. You can pick the “Best Player” regardless of position, but if you pick 5 PF’s 5 years in a row, does that make you better? Best Player is a very subjective thing.
I’ve made my peace with DMC as a player because it’s clear he was the best player at the 5th pick, but I don’t know if I would have felt that way if Wesley Johnson was available.
EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Everyone was COMPLETELY WRONG about Cousins
Don’t you remember this time in 2008 when everyone was pissed at McHale for trading Mayo for Love. McHale was obviously wrong then, and he’s obviously wrong…er…let me get back to you.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
This is where I disagree
The nba is not the NFL where more is better in terms of picks. If we had gotten the #1 pick those players are the ones that turn a team around getting 4 and 5 and 6 are not. Wall and Griffin followed by evens are the only game changers.
KG was drafted 5th.
Enough said.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Eh
We’ve had worse losses in the sense that we didn’t hold a big lead in the 4th in this game (were we ever up more than 5 in the 4th?). It was heart breaking indeed, but not a collapse of epic proportions. Beasley hit a big shot to get us down by one. We played solid D and got a stop with 10 seconds left. We ended up with a good look at the bucket on what I think was a broken inbounds play because Rondo overplayed Ridnour.
Everyone had this chalked up as a loss. I want to see how we come out of January before throwing myself in front of a bus.
Let's hop in our memory time machine and remember seriously devastating losses.
12/30/2008 against Dallas sound familiar?
The Timberwolves led 70-41 early in the third quarter when the Mavericks started their comeback, the largest in franchise history.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
http://www.canishoopus.com/2008/12/30/705640/dwayne-casey-s-revenge
best part of that game:
The Dallas Mavs’ broadcast team started playing the “largest comeback” graphic with @ 5:12 to play in the 3rd quarter.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Your text:
Britt Robson was on the Chad Hartman show today. One of the points he made was that the only people still watching this squad are either in it for the long run or about to jump ship. After tonight’s game, I’m not sure how anyone could be in for the long run barring an immediate and massive overhaul.
How’re you feelin’ more than two full calendar years later? ;-)
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
My name is Nate
And I’m a Wolves addict.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 4, 2011 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
There were only 12 comments after that game...
12!!! Can you imagine how many comments there would be if that happened this year? Crazy.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
"We stuck with a playoff team in a hard fought loss. I like the direction that we're headed as a team."
roundhouse, in that same thread. Does this sound familiar to anyone?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I'm not sure if I should be proud or ashamed
of the fact that I watched that game, as well as 95% of the ones since then.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I think your take is way off.
I just don’t agree with your take. This was not a frustrating loss. For the Wolves to even be in this game is amazing. This is the Celtics! One of the best teams in the league and maybe ever. And we were right there the whole game. You knew they would sleep on us and then turn it on at the end. We were not a serious threat. The fact that we made it so close is a real tribute to the Wolves.
I just can’t agree that this team is a “mess”. We are a super young team that is getting used to playing together and we are improving. You can’t deny that there is a distinct upwards trend. We are getting better and you just can’t expect to compete for a championship right now.
Really, you sound a bit petulant. We are a young team that was at a real low point recently and we are crawling our way out of it. I know it is hard to be patient but that is what is required.
I am really positive about the Wolves and look forward to every game. The fact that we can have a good game to watch when we are playing in Boston, against the Celtics, is really amazing and great to see.
Go Wolves! This fan supports you!
by wolver on Jan 3, 2011 10:21 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
All fair points
I just think this was one of those games that when you look at something like the SRS spreadsheet, yeah, you write it off as a gallant effort against a superior team, but in terms of actually watching it play out—and against the specific happenings of the night (Boston on the tail end of a B2B, a dinged up Rondo, no KG, no Perkins, the Celts only having 2 guys show up on offense for the 1st half, them willing to thug their way through the game, etc), it’s as frustrating as all get out. It was there for the taking and they handed it back.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
One thing to consider...
…is that the Celtics without Garnett made it to the Conference Finals a few years back, IIRC, and that was with a team that wasn’t as deep as their current one is.
East was much weaker then too
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
Huh?
I guess, but that was the year they went through that ridiculous 7 game series with the Bulls.
So maybe the East was weaker but they definitely didn’t have it easy getting to where they got.
No, but imagine fielding that team against the Eastern powers the past couple seasons
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
I don't understand your point...
…I’m saying that the Boston team, which was both thinner and still missing Garnett, managed to get to the Eastern Finals, so losing to them isn’t as bad as it might seem.
Telling me the East is stronger now doesn’t really have anything to do with what I’m talking about.
Please don't take this as some sort of slap,
but
the Boston team, which was both thinner and still missing Garnett, managed to get to the Eastern Finals, so losing to them isn’t as bad as it might seem.
? That just about epitomizes what Stop-n-Pop’s saying about rationalizing stuff. That’s like the 6-10 football team whose fans console themselves with the fact that they beat the Eagles, who really gave the eventual loser of the Super Bowl a really hard time in the wildcard game.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I prefer to look at it as an alternate point of view...
…to “worst loss of the season”.
I just thought I’d bring it up for those people getting down with all the negativity. Call it excuses, rationalizing, whatever, but losing to the Celtics without KG isn’t as bad as SnP initially made it out to be.
Ya, but it's not all about wins and loses
I see how everyone needs them to judge how far along we are. But so what if we squeak one passed the Celtics?
For me its about the long term development of our team and chemistry. And I guess I take the juxtaposition to your view, which is that this team as is, can go really far. I know that a perfect superstar is really what we need, but we have Beasley and Love and letting them develop could surely get us that guy.
The point is, I just don’t really see where the criticism is. It’s like having a kid, learning the average age of walking is 1 year, and then being worried each day after that, that they can’t walk. Really you can’t judge this situation until you give it plenty of time.
Also, a dinged up Celtics team has still been crushing the rest of the league for the last 3 years. So a 3 point loss where we actually fought back and stopped a lot of their runs is pretty inspiring.
But so what if we squeak one passed the Celtics?
Issues of tense and grammar aside, this is my question as well. The team lost by 3 when the Vegas betting line, SRS, and common sense said they should have lost by significantly more.
For someone with a healthy understanding of point differentials, it’s odd that a 3 point loss would illicit such a resoundingly defeatist post, when a 1 point win would have begotten an entirely different response. You ought to know that the numbers show that a 3 point loss and a 1 point win aren’t nearly as different as we think. In this case, either one would improve the Wolves’ SRS. I’m not trying to call it a moral victory, only a predictable defeat, and one that was far less brutal than it ought to have been. If this loss can inspire a doomsday post, what loss wouldn’t? You do know this team will probably lose another 30+ times this season…
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Was this a doomsday post by S-n-P?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
The whole point of a doomsday post
(or machine, for that matter) would be lost if you kept it a secret. Sorry, way OT but thought you’d appreciate the allusion feral.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
If S-n-P could describe the "Mine Shaft Gap" between Minnesota and Charlotte next game, that'd be great.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I'll be too busy..
…writing about the dangers of fluoride.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
The Timberwolves uh... they sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid the Timberwolves, Mandrake.
But I do deny them my essence.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 4, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
Very nice!
Now see here, Col Bat Guano…if that is indeed your real name!
I have no idea what we're yelling about!
Cassellesque
in gall and balls right after the Strib published that piece on fluoridation recently.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
I think SnP could easily describe it
in terms of Wolves fans getting shafted much more qualitatively and quantitatively than other fans.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
I thought this was a team that regularly...
…broke math ;)
I view this game as a fairly good example of a target of opportunity—a contest where they had no business being in the game, but once there (for a variety of NBA specific reasons—b2b, half-assed effort by Boston star players, all-around thuggery, etc) they were in it and simply bungled it away in spectacular (and, yes, predictable) fashion (this is the predictability that bothers me). The 1 point victory would have represented something of a breakthrough, especially had it been done, say, on a last-second iso play with Beasley. Against a sterile spreadsheet this was a predictable defeat. Against real-time “battle” conditions, it was a heart breaker. I think this is what differentiates this game. They had the damn thing. Squeaking one by the Celtics would have represented another step in this team being able to do things that were previously unheard of: closing out a game on the road and avoiding Groundhog Day.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
I understand the Groundhog Day references. Tim and I kicked those off the other day.
But what does an Independence Day franchise look like, again?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
That's when they break through against all odds...
…and murder aliens.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Sam Cassell's not playing any more.
And they already lost their chance against Shelden Williams last month. Hmm.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Popeye Jones is still in the league, right?
No?
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I think he's with New Jersey now. We beat one!
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
All-Ugly Team
Sam Cassell
Popeye Jones
Patrick Ewing
?
?
You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus
by Cynical Jason on Jan 4, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions
Gheorge. Mhureson.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 4, 2011 9:16 AM CST up reply actions
Good Criminy
How could I forget Gheorghegheghe?
You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus
by Cynical Jason on Jan 4, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
Noted
Oy.
You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus
by Cynical Jason on Jan 4, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
I'm surprised your avatar hasn't been mentioned
Calvin Booth has the face of a cartoon giant or possibly a wizard. Strange looking guy.
If I’ve had a mix-up and that avatar is actually of your face, my condolences.
All-Pretty Team (no homo)
Chris Webber
Dwayne Wade
Kris Humphries
?
?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 5, 2011 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
"spectacular fashion"....
is a stretch.
The Utah and San Antonio losses were spectacular collapses… last night’s was predictable only because of how great Boston is, and where the game was played.
The only thing unusually disappointing about this loss was that we almost beat a great team, which would have been a leap of sorts for this group. But that is only to say it was almost a great game—nothing bad, really, about it, from the Wolves standpoint. The Lakers or Spurs could have gone into Boston last night and lost by more than 3.
by Andy G on Jan 4, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Were KG and Perk on the court..
…with a healthy Rondo and an engaged Pierce, I would 100% agree with this. Boston wasn’t great last night. They were decidedly Denveresque. That being said, I take the point on the hyperbole. I still think it’s unique.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
You are right
It was not a bad game. It was a good game which could have had a great outcome, but it did not.
Time to go on to the next game.
It is not time to list all of the good moves that the team has made in the past year and fret that they were all for naught and that this game proves that we are all a bunch of masochists for even reading the game wrap instead of switching allegiance and becoming OKie fans.
Sometimes I think SnP is mocking us, and someday he’ll spit us some raspberries as he becomes the owner of the Thunder blog.
I will be sad if that happens.
The Wolves are often Pisarcikesque in their pursuit of perfecting the art of losing
(Pisarcikian?, what is the best adjectival form here?)
The Fumble#!
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
That almost sounds religious
(Imagines young men in black slacks, white shirts, and name tags knocking on my door and introducing themselves as Pisarkipalians).
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
Is that all the people that climbed on an ark
…to escape a urine flood of biblical proportions?
I disagree on a very basic level.
While I think a 1-point loss, 3-point loss, and 5-point loss are pretty much indistinguishable, I would say a 1-point win and a 3-point loss are dramatically different. Especially for this team. It’s not about staying in a game against what should be a vastly superior opponent. It’s about gutting out a tough win. Don’t get me wrong, close losses are a definite step in the right direction when compared to the blowout losses we were suffering routinely earlier in the year. We’ve seen two close wins so far this year, but they were against teams that we should have been beating anyway. Getting close wins against high-quality teams is the next step in the evolution from a 25 win team into a 45 win team. We clearly haven’t taken that step yet. My guess is that we will take that step at the end of this season and continue moving forward next season. IMO, it’s worth taking note of every time we fail to take that next step in the evolution process until we actually take it. Therefore, I have no problem with SnP, or anyone else, getting down on the Wolves for turning another victory into defeat.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
I just now read SnP's response to the statement to which I was replying.
Sorry for reiterating his point.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
I have no problem with SnP getting down on the Wolves either
I’d be quite the hypocrite if I did.
But I disagree with your point. Sure, late game play is important, and better teams do it better than worse teams. But let’s say they manage to start winning some of these close ones, and that’s the major change going forward for the next month or 2. They still ocassionally get blown out, the point differential remains about the same, but they eek out a few of these close ones. My contention is that doesn’t really tell us much; frankly they have been a little unlucky in close games so far; I would expect their luck to return to normal, which means winning a few more close ones.
But the difference between good teams and bad teams, I would contend, is not so much in their record in close games, but in their records in blowouts. Good teams win blowouts regularly, and rarely get blown out. Bad teams get blown out. To put it another way: as the point differential lessens, every team will play closer to .500. The Spurs will be worse in games decided by 5 or less than they will in games decided by 15 or more, and the Wolves will be BETTER in games decided by 5 or less than they will in games decided by 15 or more.
I’d be more inclined to think they have turned a corner when they string together some easy wins than I will if they manage to get a few more close ones.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Jan 4, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
if you believe
frankly they have been a little unlucky in close games so far; I would expect their luck to return to normal, which means winning a few more close ones.
Then if they start winning close games later in the year does it mean they’ve improved or just returned to the mean when their luck changed?
Stockpiling "winnable" games since we lost the first one
Can't it be both?
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 4, 2011 3:17 PM CST up reply actions
sure
but I was asking to better understand the point he was trying to make and how he would judge progress.
Stockpiling "winnable" games since we lost the first one
Well, perhaps some of both
but if the one change is that they start winning more of the close ones, then I would lean toward thinking it’s just luck returning to normal more than anything else. We worry too much about the close ones, and we worry too much about the end game, I think.
Let’s put it this way: If I told you the Wovles and the Spurs played a game decided by 1 point, and asked you: who won? You would probably guess the Spurs—and you would be right perhaps 55% of the time. But the truth is, over 48 minutes and roughly 200 points, 1 point is not that significant. The Spurs are better, so they will win more close ones, but when it’s that close, the results are more akin to a coin flip than the real difference between the teams.
But if told you the Wolves and the Spurs played a game decided by 20 points, and asked you who won? You would probably guess the Spurs, and you would be right a lot more often than 55%.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Jan 4, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks for the clarification
And I agree with you for the most part.
The only point I would like to make is this argument only talks about numbers and statistics and ignores the “confidence” and “morale” factors that affect our especially young team. While there may not be a big statistical difference between us winning or losing the close ones, getting our team to the point where they can believe they can win the close ones is more of a concern to me right now. This year’s string of blowing 4th quarter leads can become an emotional/mental thing.
Let’s hope luck “returns to the norm” sooner rather than later. :-)
Stockpiling "winnable" games since we lost the first one
I don't want to minimize the confidence and morale factors
Just because we can’t measure them doesn’t mean they don’t exist. But honestly, I don’t know how to approach that issue. I don’t like making assumptions about the mindset of teams or individuals when all I know is what I see on TV. It’s true that they have had real trouble closing out games, and it’s easy to speculate as to why, but I’m uncomfortable going there, because we just don’t know. I know it looks like sometimes they get in too much of a hurry, but is that a matter of confidence or does it just look bad when the shot doesn’t go in?
Also, what comes first, winning or confidence? It’s a little chicken and egg, isn’t it? If they need to win to get confidence, they need to have confidence to win…and so on.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Jan 4, 2011 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
All I can think of with the close losses
is how I race my 4-year-old girls around the park, letting them stay ahead of me, and then (if I’m sick of them gloating about winning everything) I speed up at the end and beat them by a nose. Sure, it was a close race. But I could have won by a lot more if I wasn’t just humoring them.
In my worst moments, I worry that this is what is happening with the Wolves.
Ignoring the quality of your fathering
I don’t really think so. I mean, does Boston get as motivated for a Monday night tilt against the Wolves as they do when the Heat come to town? No, I’m sure they don’t. But teams also don’t want these things to go down to the wire, because when they do, shit happens. Beasley makes that 3. Ridnour makes the out of bounds play work. So I don’t think teams just toy with the Wolves for 3 and half quarters.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Jan 4, 2011 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
I figured I wouldn't win father of the year with that one.
But you can’t let ‘em win EVERY time, right? Believe me, they’ve got no self-esteem issues. (“I’m really good at this, daddy!” is a regular phrase around my house.)
On your point, I agree that teams wouldn’t want to cut it nearly as close as the Celtics did, but I am pretty suspicious whenever the Wolves get off to a fast start against a good team.
I don't have any statistics to back it up,
but I know that it seems like the best teams in the league are also the teams that most consistently win the close games.
I also tend to think that learning how to close out games often translates into how to make a run in the middle of a game. I think if a team figures out how to consistently play well in a pressure filled 3-4 minute stretch, then similar times throughout the game can be treated in much the same way. It seems to me that good teams turn it up at several points during a game (not just in the final 5 minutes) and their large average margin of victory/point differential is probably due to that very ability. After all, I get the feeling that a lot of 1-point victories could easily have become 15-point victories if the team had made a run to start the third quarter rather than to finish the 4th.
But for a young team the most obvious and important stretch of a game will be that last five minutes, so that’s where everybody tends to put the most emphasis – and rightly so. And that is why I feel like a 1-point win is vastly different from a 3-point loss for this team. I feel like the 1-point victories eventually become 5-point victories. Then the 5-point victories eventually become 15-point victories. It’s a maturation process.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
See: Lakers for counterpoint
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Agreed
This team has 11 new players on it and have played together 36 games. Compare that to the Celtics roster the majority of which have played together for 3+ years.
As for Rondo, dishing out 16 assists ain’t too bad for being unhealthy.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
That experience
is truly the key to this current team. They’re just too young and too inexperienced playing together to be expected to close out games consistently.
Bear with them. They will turn a corner if they keep playing together and at least start winning SOME of these close games. It just takes patience.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I agree on the inexperienced in playing together part
but not the young part. I think we use youth as too much of an excuse for these guys. Replace age with years of NBA experience and suddenly these guys aren’t so “young” anymore. Webster and Darko have been in the league for 5+ years. Beasley and Love are in their 3rd year. Pekovic and Wes aren’t very young, but in their case, they truly still are going through an adjustment period. For the others, we can use the excuse of learning Kurt’s system or learning how to play in new roles, but we can’t use the excuse of youth.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 4, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
They're still young in terms of meaningful experience
I guess it’s really kind of the same thing when you boil it down. Webster and Luke are really the only guys who have contributed on decent teams and have spent enough time in the league to be considered vets. Darko and Pek are older, sure, but this seems like the first time anyone has given Darko a clear role, and Pek’s new to the league. Love and Beasley are both still quite young and both are new to the roles presented to them this year. Imagine the difference in those two in 4-5 years. They’ll know exactly what they can do and how to do it. Right now they’re still figuring it all out.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I can buy that
The “new to role” piece is what I’m hanging my hat on in terms of rationalizing the losses and staying somewhat positive. Nearly every one of our starters and our 6th man (Webster) has been asked to step up into a much more prominent role than they ever had before.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 4, 2011 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
No be fair, Webster
started 119 out of the last 157 games he played for Portland averaging nearly 27 minutes per game for a Portland team that made the playoffs.
I am not sure that his role with the Twolves is a step up.
He's said that all they wanted him to do was camp out and shoot 3's
Seems like we’re asking him to take on a little more varied offensive role.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I'm comparing the Wolves to this year's Celtics, right?
And not the championship ‘08 team that had just come together. Just checkin’.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I didn't think this loss was quite so disappointing...
but it would have been a great win. Even without KG, Boston is a Top 5 or 6 team in the league—to take them to the wire on the home floor, without any sort of monumental collapse, was a strong effort.
- Ridnour’s travel was the correct call and yet one that would not be made against a star player—or even perhaps an ordinary player for the home team. The NBA has allowed that extra step for decades.
- Beasley is just plain awesome at shooting the rock. I cannot believe we got him for what we got him for. He just needs to relax on the reach-in fouls.
- Darko keeps shooting that lefty hook with success. Al Jefferson is the only player so far (or Jerry Sloan is the only coach so far?) to know that it’s coming 99 percent of the time.
- Gotta ditch Jonny Flynn—it’s in everybody’s best interest. Yes, even David Kahn’s.
The issue with Flynn...
The worse his trade value gets. No way he’s going to look any better in Rambis’ point guard crippling offense.
We need to call Sac and offer Flynn + Ellington do Thompson and Casspi
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Will New York take Flynn for Randolf
Flynn is what they need. A moderately inexpensive back-up PG with a short contract.
Speaking of lucky, Kahn was very lucky for not being able to pull off that Randolf for Love trade.
by ThisIsForSota on Jan 4, 2011 12:40 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't worry about what we get for Flynn
It’s addition by subtraction, at this point. There is no benefit to keeping him around.
by Andy G on Jan 4, 2011 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He really was just awful
I keep hoping hell show something, and he might as it really is early, but god he’s painful to watch.
The constant overdribbling, even when he’s in one spot, the lack of ability to actually run a team, the terrible shot selection. I mean, even when he’s at the top of the key and waiting to swing it sidways he’s doing 3 between the legs dribbles or a crossover. One of these days he’s going to bobble it and miss the simple swing pass b/c the ball isn’t in the right position for it. It’s stuff like that that just makes you cringe.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I could see JT for Flynn.
DEFINITELY not Casspi.
But, honestly, would giving JT be overpaying seeing as how much everybody here hates Flynn?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 5, 2011 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
Beat Charlotte and Portland
All is Forgiven. I’m thinking we get a big win this month (Orl, SA, OKC).
Wrong again, ole boy
The right call was made as evidenced by a wide open Luke down the lane. Sure there was help defender, as is always the case, but how can anyone argue with a call that leaves the best PG on the team wide open. So, the best PG on the team while wide open does what? Takes 3 steps!
It’s too easy to project what Beasley would have done with the pass coming to him and instead of what actually transpired. Beasley has in fact show a propensity to dribble his way into traffic and throw up a highly contested shot that is partly deflected or simply off the mark.
I’ll take an open PG down the lane to a highly contested shot any day.
Most frustrating loss of the season so far? Were you sleeping during the Bermuda Triangle trip to Florida earlier in the season?
On a different note, the Jim-Pete interview with Kahn was not real reassuring in terms of Jonny Flynn. Kahn reminded everyone that Jonny would only be a senior in college right now…..
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
you mean the play where even if he wasn't called for traveling...
..the shot was blocked? that being said, i’m not sure i said that he should be blamed for that call in this post. in real time i was ticked about it, but i think i said i don’t think he should be blamed for it.
the early season blow outs weren’t frustrating. they were avert-your-eyes bad, but frustrating, to me, implies that there could have been a different outcome if the good guys had done something easily within the realm of possibility.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
The answer remains...
Luke was open down the lane, you have to go with the open player. Obviously the time out call was effective.
Now, Luke should have shielded the ball from Allen who provided help defense and possible got an and1. He could have made a pull up jumper ahead of the helper. And he could have thrown up one of his toss-shots. So, it was the poor execution not a bad time out call that was the difference.
As to the chicken (open shot down middle) or egg (blocked shot) argument, it is really immaterial. You always take a bunny over a contested shot, which Luke would have had had he kept his head and used one of several aforementioned optional shots and not traveled.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
yeah
The color commentary was atrocious. Gag me with a spoon.
Kahn on Darko...
What the F!! I get it that Darko is no longer playing historically terrible, but Kahn seriously has to be high to think Darko could be in the All stat mix next year. If you didn’t hear what Kahn said, here is the quote…
Kahn: “Thank you, Jim, but I met with Darko today because I hadn’t talked to him in awhile, and I think there’s just still so much more to come. And I think that we expect it out of him. It’s not enough, is what I’m trying to say. We think that Darko can actually get to sort of a near All-Star if not All-Star level. There’s not a lot of quality centers in our sport. There’s no reason to think that a year from now if Darko were to continue his trajectory upwards, he couldn’t be in the mix about a year from now for the All-Star game.”
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
this angle scares the crap out of me
because kahn seems like the type of guy who has to prove that he is right (trust me, i know these people….i look at one every day in the mirror ;)) and he is going to stick with it until the bitter end.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
with darko..
…flynn and rambis. if such a prove-me-right trio is possible.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Kahn didn't mention anything...
After flynn’s fast break pass to nowhere.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Just before that he reminded
everyone that Jonny would only be a senior in college.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
But seriously, imagine how good Love will be...
When he’s Wes johnson’s age
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Love will be
eligible for a players union pension by then.
(I’m sorry. I said I would stop at the beginning of the year. And I will. With my family and my faith, I’ll get through this.)
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
In fairness to McHale, Ebi looked pretty studious once he started wearing the goggles.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I think there is a very strong argument...
That Darko should not be an NBA starter…
So don’t get me started on “all-star”
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Smoking the pipe?
I think he was two hours into a Peyote induced vision quest
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
lol
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 5, 2011 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
He's smoking crack, the butt crack
I noted that Jim-Pete didn’t comment much on Darko’s All Star potential. Some things are better left unsaid.
Just watch though, McHale and C-Webb are going to bring this up in a future NBA.com program.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I see how this ends...
People make fun of Kahn…
Kahn defends himself by saying he was mostly referring to how bad the west centers are…
In his defense, Kahn throws a Nene or Kaman under the bus…
Everyone compares Nene’s stats to Darko’s…
We all laugh at Kahn some more…
Wash, rinse, repeat…
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
There is no argument to be made
Because he is so obviously a starter. Him not starting would imply that there are better options. Who? Who did we have last year, who have we ever had in the history of the franchise?
The thing I don’t get about Darko detractors, is where they think a better 7-foot basketball player is going to come from. The draft? A trade? How many busts have we seen from 7-footers in the lottery. Players that do what Darko is doing for us right now don’t get traded for cap space, they don’t get traded, you just don’t get them.
I know he isn’t an all-star, but it is true that right now this league has a very poor collection of starting centers. The reason he is indispensable to us is the defense. He is forth in the league in blocks, he is a huge defense presence in the paint, and that is something that really shores up our otherwise awful defense.
Darko detractors
what kind of numbers would an all-star center have put up against the Celtics today?
Darko’s were 14 pts, 6 rebs, 3 asts in 24 min with a plus 8.
To the Darko detractors part II
Darko: 6-10 for 14 points and 6 rebounds for +8 in 24 minutes,
Other wolves centers: 2-8 for 6 points and 2 rebounds for -9 in 24 minutes
(why doesn’t the +/- add up to -3, by the way?)
by ThisIsForSota on Jan 4, 2011 1:06 AM CST up reply actions
Two centers played together for a stretch?
and none played for a stretch?
You can't dust for vomit.
Darko and starting...
Stats that make me think Darko is not a starting caliber center…
Wins Produced: -.033
Rebound Rate: 12.1
Offensive Rating: 95
EFG: .467
TO%: 17.7
Beyond just those statistics, I’m pretty sure there is ample evidence mounting that the Beasley/Love/Darko line-up is just not working.
Beyond that, I personally do not buy into the whole “where are we going to find a better 7-footer.” Why is this needed? Does every playoff team give significant minutes to 7 footers at center? I just don’t buy it.
I think we find better players then Darko on our bench. I’d much rather increase the minutes of Martell, and just have him start at SG, Wes at SF, Beas at PF, and Love at C. I’m personally fine with that.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Your lineup
Would get murdered by any team with any competent low post player (PF or C).
Stats like rebound rate are great to augment traditional scouting. But do you really think the Wolves are losing because of Darko’s defensive rebounding? Darko boxes out well and for whatever reason defers to Love and/or tips rebounds.
Not to quibble, but Darko's rebounding rate isn't that far off for his career.
If we want to attribute a decline of 1% to Love’s presence on the court, okay, but the guy’s never rebounded that amazingly well, across multiple franchises. Excusing away a sub-par number this one season without looking at the rest doesn’t work so well.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Fair Enough
But his rebound rate is almost identical to what it was when he played with a guy named Dwight Howard. Unsurprisingly, he was rebounding at a significantly higher rate with the Grizz.
The more important point though is that he was the best center on the court last night and did a great job neutralizing Shaq so I don’t understand why this is yet another occasion for a debate as to whether he is a credible starter.
You can't say the NBA has a poor collection of centers.
We have what we have. Howard is the best, Hawes is the worst. If we average those out, Darko would be on the “bad” side.
There is no use trying to compare the NBA’s starting Centers right now to 10 or 15 years ago. Because when people are “good” or “bad” TODAY, it’s cause we compare them to players TODAY!
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 5, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
"Trajectories upward" are a funny thing.
New parents are sometimes told, when their baby begins really putting on weight, that if the kid kept adding flesh at this pace he or she would be as big as the moon in X months. Development, though, does not happen in straight lines that way. Across many different phenomena, the rate of growth is much faster early in one’s ‘life cycle.’ Which is one of those reasons for which we tend to be skeptical of Darko as a potential breakout star player at 25 after 7 years of experience, you know?
If Darko was 17, or 21, and a rookie, Kahn could imagine that his baby might swallow the moon. Even then he’d be wrong, but at least the line he drew to suggest that “trajectory” would really be there. Kahn’s “trajectory” line in this quote would be maybe five games long; he’s ignoring the rest of the career arc.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
SnP
How did you end up listening to the self-embarrassing Tommy H? The guy is a complete tool.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
i have league pass and that was the feed
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
typically..
….i like the guy. he was way over the top tonight.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
I picked it up on FSN
I’ve got LP too, but watching the Tommy-JimPete broadcast.
Every contested play should go to the Celtics according to Tommy. Fortunately he is somewhat balanced with the little dude doing the play-by-play.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Y'know
There were two feeds, one of which was the home boys. Problem is that they don’t tell you which is which, so when you set it up to record before leaving for work, you have to gamble and pick one of the two feeds.
I, as usually happens when I gamble, lost horribly and wound up listening to Tommy. Unbelievable how much of a homer he is. It’s unbearable. There are actually some solid, listenable crews out there, but he’s just awful. Nothing is worse than a good team having a homer announcer.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
he's become a chariacture
of himself. i really used to like listening to the guy but at some point even the biggest of homers has to…well, put it this way: i love willie nelson. i think he’s the bee’s knees. he’s not the greatest artist in the world but he is what he is and he used to do it very well. somewhere along the way, he became a hollow shell of his old self and the last time i saw him he was a sad old man pumping up the crowd in front of a texas flag. tommy’s at that point in his career.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Exactly.
I went into this knowing he’d be a ridiculous homer and it was still just awful.
All game long it was complain about a call on one end, then laud the refs for doing the same thing when it benefits the C’s. Even when the replays showed a clearly blown call, as long as it benefitted his team there was no mention of it, just “look at that great play!”
Really really makes me miss our guys. That’s the one huge downside of LP. Pete calls it straight and won’t hesitate to retract a statement after watching a replay if the footage contradicts his original opinion. It’s nice to hear and keeps you in line as a viewer.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
isn't it usually Home feed channel first, then Away ?
e.g. Home feed on 447, Away feed on 448…..???
I'm not sure, but I'll try it out
IIRC that was how it played out yesterday. This might be genius, SeaWolf.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
These are the posts that make this site great. Well done, SnP.
As for excuse-making, I’ll take youth and young manhood /kings of leon
There’s something here. There is. Beasley makes me want to compare him to Melo and Kobe at times – with better rebounding. Also, I make wild comparisons sometimes. Love is Troy Murphy times 15. Also, I make apt comparisons sometimes. Darko shows flashes of a poor man’s Sabonis. Wes/Webster can each get close to 30 min/game doing what they do – though another body not named Brewer wouldn’t hurt there, as would Wes evolving as he can. Tolliver and Pek at the 4/5 is solid enough – though another body named Koufos wouldn’t hurt there, as would Pek evolving as he can.
It’s point guard play holding this team back, plain and simple. I believe we’re watching Flynn’s mental basketball breakdown right now, it’s bad for him out there. He’s questioning everything, indecisive, and decision-making was already a problem for him. Ridnour’s play is schizo, untrustable. Bassy is…there, I guess. Though it’s hard to tell.
So it’s the hope of Rubio that really keeps me going. And that Beasley and Love firstly stay, and secondly become some monsterous 3/4 combo never seen before.
And that Oklahoma City was 23-59 two years ago.
The team is incredibly young and can only grow. Just gotta keep telling ourselves that before we inevitably snap because of these goddamned teases and go on a massive killing spree killing the innocent and guilty alike in a hail of gunfire on Marquette and 4th at 5:46pm after you’ve been stuck in traffic because nobody knows how to drive over 14mph in the snow.
Or something.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 3, 2011 10:42 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Lol, nice post
And good points. I totally agree, we just gotta relax. There are so many moving parts right now. Its like saying the car doesn’t run so we need a new engine and a new steering wheel and some new brakes.
Maybe its just a spark plug, ya know? Let this thing play out, they are too young, with too much talent, and were put into a new team with new roles less than half a year ago. I’ve said it a thousand times, but I just don’t see what there is to complain about right now.
What did we expect, a trip to the playoffs? What are we gonna do with a few extra wins this year, win a championship? Just enjoy that we are competing with top notch teams, and let it all come together.
by TO12 on Jan 4, 2011 12:19 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Without Rondo we had a chance...
…but with him you’re looking at the opposite of our team chemistry wise. All of those guys have played with each other for years now, know their roles down to the minute detail and know what to do in any situation. I don’t think losing to them is anywhere near as bad as you make it seem, even with their injuries.
Killer comment by Doc on Killer Beas
“Offensively, I’ve been a big believer in him,” Rivers said before his Celtics beat the Timberwolves 96-93 on Monday night. “I just think he can score. I said it two years ago: I think one day he may lead the league in scoring. He just knows how to score the ball. He has a Carmelo ability to score the ball.”
http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/112840604.html
per Jerry Zgoda
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
No disrespect
but coming from Doc Rivers, that’s damn nice.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
what about here
http://www.canishoopus.com/2010/7/9/1560877/be-easy-mike-beasley
;)
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Is there *anyone* who didn't think Beasley was a potentially explosive scorer?
When we did our “What to watch for” list we said his certainties were “Tattoos” and “Potential scoring explosions.”
Hey, everyone, before the season started I suggested that Kevin Love was a good rebounder. Take that, all you skeptics out there!
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Yes, Riles
Could you imagine the Heat with Beasley? Although he probably would only be given a marginal bench role.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Riley was interesting about Beasley.
Pat Riley knew he had a young volume scorer whose position was in doubt. His media summary of their post-season debriefing last year was pretty hilarious, and still telling.
``You’re doing OK. OK isn’t good enough for me or for you. So let’s figure out how to get past OK.‘’
….
Beasley responded back, ``OK.’’
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
You're in good company
Doc + Chuck + SnP
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Nice
I think he will be a super-sized version of Melo. This means more rebounds and hopefully more postups.
He's bigger
Not sure what Melo’s at now, but he was 233 at the combine while Beasley was 239. He’s probably bulked up a bit from that given his time at the 4 in Miami. He’s a big dude for the 3 spot, which is why it’s key that he keeps learning to play there.
Also according to the combine he’s 3/4" taller in shoes has a slightly longer wingspan and a 1.5" longer reach than Melo. Kinda interesting.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Beas is definitely bigger...
it was noticeable when they matched up at Target Center, earlier this year.
I think 'Melo
has a quicker first step and that’s what makes him so devastating. He can get by defenders and then has the strength to go up and finish or draw contact. Beasley has a bit more consistency to his jumper and is proving to be a more reliable 3-point threat. Now he has to figure out to use his size and strength better around the hoop. One thing I notice is that he releases his shot before the contact comes, whereas ‘Melo will jump into the defender and then release his shot after contact. Beasley doesn’t seem to do this that often.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 4, 2011 2:04 PM CST up reply actions
I want to see him get the ball closer to the hoop
where he can use the triple threat to make a quick move to the hoop, fadeaway or rise up and fire just like Melo does. As is, it’s too easy for defenders to slide over and take the charge when he starts his drive at the 3pt line. Melo gets it in a spot where he can be at the hoop in just a step or two, which is usually too quick for anyone to do much except foul him.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
This is *supposed* to be something the trike could do.
Wings in the post isn’t exactly its weak point, in theory.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Exactly
So I keep wondering why he never gets it down there. Instead it’s just Love and Darko posting up.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
With the number of legit 3pt shooters we have
Why are we not letting him get it in the pinch post and use the triple threat while spreading shooters out around on the wings? I’m pretty sure Denver runs a significant portion of their offense that way with Billups/Smith camped out behind the line. Why don’t we do the same with Love, Ridnour, Martell, Johnson etc. just sitting out there while Bease goes to work.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Coach Kurt thinks forcing that would be inorganic.
Everything must come in ‘flow.’
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
True
But If you watched some heat games anyone could have see that the ability is there. people were scared off by the weed and the drug rehab
Going back to K-State
More from Doc:
“He’s a matchup problem every night,” Rivers said. “He’s tough for 3s [small forwards] to guard because of his size. He’s too quick for 4s [power forwards]. And he can shoot. Obviously that’s the key. He has quickness and a shot at that size. That makes him tough to guard.”
Credit: Jerry Zgoda
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
That is why I would
Love the idea of having Him and Josh smith together. That would be a match up nightmare for teams if you put a3 on beas he posts them up and josh could go drive by the 4’s. The same thing would happen in reverse if josh was played by a 3 and Beas at the 4
Josh Smith would be a good fit with a lot of players.
That’s why Atlanta’s probably not going to give him up.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 3, 2011 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
Josh smith could be obtained
Joe Johnson is old and the hawks are in a win now mode. They need a center. We could do a three team trade with Denver to get him.
They should've just cut ties with Joe Johnson and tried creating a defensive-oriented team around Smith
/captain obvious
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 3, 2011 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
yep I agree
but now they are stuck with that contract. Think about it he gets paid more than Lebron Wade and Bosh and Amer’e
But would you take Joe Johnson for peanuts?
Wolves need a SG/scorer. He would be a great fit. The wolves could absorb his HUGE contract. I’d take him.
Brewer and Flynn for Johnson works under the cap.
by ThisIsForSota on Jan 4, 2011 12:48 AM CST up reply actions
I'd take DWade for peanuts too
but neither will happen
I could see Atlanta realizing it was a mistake . . .
. . . signing Joe Johnson to that monter contract, and give him away for cap flexibility. Very different situation than Miami.
by ThisIsForSota on Jan 4, 2011 12:56 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure I would
He’s a monster choke artist. I’d rather have Iggy.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
avoid johnson at all costs
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Johnson
Terrible contract….worst in the NBA.
And everyone here in Georgia knows it’s going to be a franchise sized deadweight in the second half of it guaranteed.
The Hawks are kinda like the T-wolves circa 2000
They’ve got a good core of players locked up (Smith, Horford, Johnson…kinda like Wally, KG, Brandon) so they’re going to be successful for the next 3-5 years (make the playoffs) but the team doesn’t have a ton of money (Hawks currently have a smaller avg attendance than the T-Wolves…ie nobody in Atlanta is actually from Atlanta) and barring an unexpected jump in performance, they’ll get bounced in the first or second round, currently they’re not built for a significant playoff run.
But what do you do? They’re not going to be in the lottery and they’re not going to have enough money to be a major player in free agency, so they’re caught in the middle of being able to compete for a championship and tearing the whole team down.
That’s why they resigned Johnson. But no….that contract is untradable.
Basically
The Hawks are going to keep Smith and hope that a late-mid 1st round pick turns into their Tony Parker…it’s their only shot.
Kinda like how we needed one of our late first round picks (kinda like how Ron Artest would have been a better pick than Will Avery, or how actually drafting Tony Parker/Gerald Wallace or Tayshaun Prince in the drafts when we forfeited those 1st round picks) to pan out for the Timberwolves to take the next step.
Joe F’in Smith. Seriously.
I forgot to add
With rubio these guys would run every team out of the target center. Nobody except the heat would be able to keep up with the wolves.
Jonny Flynn
Do you think he is content with being a 3rd string PG in the NBA? I say 3rd, because Bassy (gulp) should be 2nd. He looks like he is scared to break a sweat.
I think with another team
Johnny could be OK. He needs to be able to jack up a lot of shots he reminds of a taller Nate Robinson
Taller?
Did you see them next to one another?
You can't dust for vomit.
Where was Telfair?
OK, I didn’t watch the game so I’m only going by the box score, but the most evident thing to me is that Telfair didn’t play tonight while Flynn, hurt or recovering or ‘getting up to speed’, did play. And going by the box score Flynn didn’t play effectively. Yesterday, Telfair did some nice things and received a number of hurrays on this board. Last year, I would accept playing Flynn to give him some education. This year, I’m hungry for some wins. Against better teams. In games we can win. In games where we have a sizeable lead. I don’t want games coming down to the Twolves having to score on the last possession.
I really do not want to have more games where one of the big topics is about WTF was the coach thinking. Most of the game time should be used to see who’s on tonight (on our team) and who (on the other team) can be exploited. We should have plays, especially from out of bounds, that get our best shooter, the guy we want to take the last shot, the ball in his hands in his spot. Ridnour shot lousy this game, and hes’ taking the last shot? Wes is getting known as a shooter. Beasley has the #1 shooter designation. Even Love (I don’t know if he was on the court but it shouldn’t be a question) could be taking that last shot, despite the previous airball.
If Corey, bless his heart, is giving up more than he makes, he should not be on the court. We have enough players at that position. Put Wes in there, give Martell some burn. I would like to see Telfair and Ridnour together even against smaller guards. But sticking with a net loss is not something I as a fan of the holy game of basketball want to see anymore for some heart warming, sentimental, maybe this time kind of fuzzy feel good moment. Sorry Corey, I like you, I think you’re better than we’ve seen, but you have to go shoot 500 jumpers a day until you make them at game time.
Is the box score really misleading me this time?
Flynn was poor in the first half
Bassy should’ve got the nod in the second half.
Sucks to lose
There doesn’t seem to be a straight up reason why we lost tonight and the Celtics really didn’t deserve to win tonight, they really phoned it in (for whatever reason).
one thing ive noticed
iz dat most de time, SnP iz absolutely right. truth hurts sumtimes mayn, but if u look at his track record (not dat we all couldnt have avoided de flynn debacle) he usually calls things from miles away. With dat sed im prety excited for dis team. I genuinely believe dat some more learning how to close gamez and growth from Beas an Love plus Rubio will be somethimg special. I even thank Rambis iz coachign better lately. Flynn iz still de worst player in de league to me and i hope im wrong
MAYN HOL UP!
I don't know about worst in the whole league
because guys like Scalabrine still have jobs, but I’m certain there are a lot of guys in the DLeague who are much better than Jonny Flynn.
Vs Celtics
Reminded me of that game against the Celtics during the Al Jefferson/Love days. IIIRC Al Jeff balling, Telfair turnover on last play of the game for celtics to seal it. Garnett pops Celtics jersey
i remember the game...
…that was when i started hating garnett. popping his jersey after beating the worst team in the league. no class!
Again?
I’m not talking about the game. I understand why we lost.
But how often do we decide we need to judge this team game by game? Isn’t playing stride for stride with one of the best teams in the league enough?
I’ve got a lot more opinions, but the returns won’t be known till next year. Not next game.
first post from me on this site
I spent 28 of my first 30 years in Minnesota (I am now 35). I did undergrad, med school and graduate school in Minnesota. I have and will always be die-hard Minnesota everything even as it has been excruciatingly painful as so many of you are aware. I have watched every Timberwolves game this year and was one of the lone fans cheering for them at Oracle Arena when they played Golden State. I believe the team we have now is the best we have had since KG left and arguably long before that. With that said, although I believe youth is a consideration, I cannot stand it used as an excuse. This is particularly true as it cannot account for the ridiculous TURNOVERS this team makes. It is one thing if turnovers are forced as a result of imposing defense, but it is an ENTIRELY different thing when they are unforced. The two turnovers where we failed to inbound the ball tonight were pathetic, and Ridnour’s travel while so incredibly open was inexcusable. Why is it this team does not value every possession? With that said I have so many other issues with the Wolves game tonight and as a whole.
I simply cannot understand Rambis’ substitution patterns. What is it with him and substituting simply for the sake of substituting. Why the hell did Flynn get as many minutes as he did? Why did Pekovic play as much as he did when Darko was playing reasonably well? Why is Beasley playing as little as he did despite the fact he ended the game with four fouls? And is it me or does Flynn just look utterly awful in every sense of the word. It’s like he is playing for the other team when he is out there. It is really as though he does not even know how to play basketball. What is he doing defensively? What compels him to make the play he did with Brewer? At least Pekovic has some potential as far as I am concerned (he has fairly good post moves and appears to be able to learn what is required to become a serviceable player). Unfortunately, trading Flynn at this time would be egregiously insipid as we would get pennies on the dollar as his stock must be at an all-time low based on how he has played since coming back from his injury.
I have to respectfully disagree with many of you who feel that Darko does not have substantial potential. Even today when it looked as though he was not contributing, he had 14 points, 6 rebounds, and 3 assists in 24 minutes. He has significant skill and he really does have a high basketball IQ. The problem is he often times has to compensate for his teammates defensive liabilities including those of Ridnour, Love and Beasley. He gets left out to dry a lot in this regard. Offensively, his primary issues are those of confidence, slow decision making and he simply does not have a killer instinct. He needs to be more power and less finesse (hookshots), and if he does not change this facet of his personality his potential will never be realized. Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying he is going to be an all-star, but I do feel he has a good chance to be an above-average center and that, if EVERYTHING comes together for him, he could be an all-star.
I have read every fanpost and host post on this site for a long time. I understand that many people contend that the sum of our parts is not particularly appealing and that our team seems to be a convoluted aggregate of players. I don’t necessarily disagree with that assessment, but I do feel that significant optimism is warranted. The fact that we have the team we do now is kind of a small miracle if you think about where we were at this time last year. Say all you want about Kahn’s mistakes including drafting Flynn, perhaps not getting more for Jefferson, etc., he really has provided a glimmer of hope I did not feel possible last year by markedly improving our salary cap situation, acquiring Beasley for two second round picks (yes.. he lucked into this, but any other general manager in the league could have as well suggesting we must credit Kahn for being sufficiently opportunistic in this regard), obtaining Rubio for Foye/Miller (this actually is a huge steal nobody talks about), etc. He was more right than wrong on Milicic (I’m guessing every other team in the league would take Milicic at 4 million/year at this time), and his choice of Ridnour instead of Sessions appears to be the right one despite the fact I have been pissed at Ridnour quite a bit this season as I feel our point guard play is abysmal and largely responsible for many of our losses this year. I like Webster as a player although he makes some boneheaded plays as well, and I am wondering where the lock down defender I heard he was has been since he began playing for us. Tolliver is an excellent reserve and is sorely missed (don’t underestimate how much he means to our team as will be evident soon). I think Telfair is better than Flynn now, but he is obviously nothing to brag about. I like Brewer as a defender, but he absolutely kills me when he shoots the ball even when it goes in as he would be a lot better if he recognized his limitations. Ellington has disappointed me. Johnson is a great shooter, defender and passer, but will never be an allstar in my eyes unless he develops an ability to create off the dribble which I think will be rather hard to do at this stage in his life, but hopefully I’m wrong. Love is better than I ever thought he would be and I think Beasley has the chance to be a superstar (top 20 player) if he can get his head on straight (easier said than done). I am unsure if Love/Beasley/Milicic/Johnson/Rubio/Webster/Tolliver/Ridnour/Pekovic/our next first-round pick are enough of a nucleus to allow us to contend for a championship in the future, but I do feel there is potential there. Like many of you I would love to get Mayo and/or Randolph for any variation of Ridnour/Brewer/Flynn/Ellington/Utah’s first round pick/Memphis’ first round pick, but it is unlikely to happen. In addition, and I think a lot of us forget this, we are going to have to make very difficult choices in the immediate future regarding how we allocate our resources. Specifically, are we going to give near-max contracts to Beasley and Love which will likely be required to keep them. Will they be enough to get us where we want to go in the future or are they too much of a defensive liability as a duo to invest in? Is Love simply too unable to create his own shot to be a guy we give near max money? I don’t know the answer to these questions, but I suspect we will have to go all-in on these guys given our limitations as a city, organization, etc., to recruit free-agents. Beasley is simply going to have to learn to function as a small forward, and I disagree with those that feel we should trade Beasley for Igoudala. I may be one of the few, but I would not make that trade straight up.
I’m actually going to stop here as I did not mean to go on such a long diatribe. It truly is a manifestation of this being my first post on this site. With that said I wish to commend SNP, Oceanary, TimAllen, MPlax, flagrant, etc., for all of their excellent insights as I like this site very much. I also wished to make sure that all of the people on this site knew there was one more person like them even if we may disagree about how the team should proceed. Oh.. and one more thing.. these DANG LOSSES ARE REMARKABLY FRUSTRATING.. YOUTH OR NO YOUTH…
I wish you guys all you wish for yourselves.. Take care..
by bsg007 on Jan 3, 2011 11:36 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Wow!
That’s a lot of text, damn.
Anyway, young + limited time playing together = high turnovers
Do yourself a favor. Look at the teams with high turnover rates. They virtually have things in common. Youth + limited time playing together.
Now, to validate, check the perennial winning teams. The core players are the same year-over-year, they commit the fewest turnovers, and have relatively few young players who haven’t played on the team.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
When I write something that long, usually I lose it before it posts
These extra turnovers are not due to youth. They are due to stupidity, some of which may go away, but most of which shouldn’t exist in the first place.
You can't dust for vomit.
Perhaps we need a new taxonomy for turnovers
ATO (acceptable TO: defense makes outstanding play leading to TO)
STO (stupid TO: avoidable yet bound to happen on occasion)
FSTO (no need for comment)
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
Yep
“Taking Care of Business” was also an option, until I realized that we don’t really have any players that can do that.
I need to expand my mind
perhaps the Swami Rama towel adorning the crown of Κυριάκος Ραμπίδης (see above) would help.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
I love this idea
I have long thought this.. that the turnover taxonomy should be adjusted like in tennis (unforced errors as an example). It certainly is one thing if you turn the ball over on a charge or a stolen pass when the defender makes a great play, and an entirely different thing if you can’t inboud the ball, pass the ball to nobody, dribble the ball behind the half court line when noone is on you to get called for an over and back violation (see Ridnour), dribble the ball off your leg out of bounds, etc. My contention is that the later of these turnovers cannot be attributed to youth as I can see plenty of highschool players not making these mistakes. They are, as twinstalker stated, simply stupid and cannot happen. Oh. and before I end this post.. what the hell is with the way Flynn dribbles the ball of court.. the jumping up and down thing he does as he dribbles between his legs for no reason as nobody is guarding him at that point… The guy is just too immature in my opinion (see the way he fucks with his mouthpiece while he is being guarded with the ball-I mean.. what the hell is he doing?)
His weirdness with the ball really bothers me
Pointless hops, jukes and between the legs dribbles. It’s total streetball and is really annoying and has some potential to be destructive as I noted elsewhere in this monster thread. At some point he’s going to dribble it off himself or not be ready for a pass b/c he’s dicking around.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I'm completely with you xand1
he needs to freaking grow up
It's the same thing on defense
He’s always moving and hopping around unnecessarily, getting himself out of position. So jittery and inefficient; there’s very little economy of movement. He looks to be overanxious (seems to be a problem with Corey as well) and can’t tell the difference between being active and being effective. Hopefully he stops pressing so much and calms himself down, lets the game come to him.
That’s one of the things that I hope Rubio can bring, is a calming influence. Leaving aside his obvious skills in transition, he seems to have no problem getting the play started and getting the hell out of the way. He’s flashy and exciting, but it’d be even better if his biggest effect on the team is how smoothly our half-court O will run.
Thanks for the thoughts
I hate excuses too, but I feel good writing this one off as just the plain old truth. We are young and new together, and this is going to happen for a while.
Also, B-Easy ended the game with four fouls, but he had them mid-way through 3 quarters right? Rambis wanted to save him so he could hit shots at the end (which he did).
And I think he liked Pek against Shaq cause of the strength. Also Flynn played only 12 minutes.
Good. I agree, but Flagrant's answer has merit, too (except for Ridnour, who's not 21
and shouldn’t be still making boneheaded plays in crunch time). But, yep, we need a number
one PG. We don’t have him. It would have made a tremendous difference this season, IMHO.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
That was like a Bernlohr lecture
Don’t forget to breathe
by midlife crisis on Jan 4, 2011 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
Why wasnt KG on the bench?
Just curious. Oh thats right…it was his bi-annual disappearing act when Minny is invovled.
I guess we'll take that.
It’s so much better than if he was going all Spree-returns-to-MSG on us.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
if pek wasn't such a stiff
we win this game. our backup center position is awful. i actually like koufos out there better but he’s worthless with that mask on.
corey brewer actually kept us in the game. when we had that crazy lineup at the end of the 3rd, corey hit a few (3) key shots.
as far as the triangle debate, i agree. however, remember the PNR luke and pek ran in the 4th where pek got the ball way out on the perimeter and panicked?
the triangle (motion) should be our default offense, except when there’s obviously mismatches. we should exploit those mismatches every trip until it stops working. we could have fouled out big baby by continuing to go to love tonight as an example.
we do need to run plays for guys like beas/wes/webster. overall, we just need to get our guys the ball where they are most effective. i know love cant be everywhere, but why does he never get the ball on the high post like KG used to get it. he can hit that shot all day and we have guys like darko and beas who can fill up the low block in his absence.
i know im being hard on pekovic
but he’s supposed to be a bruiser. every time he touches the ball he seems to be off balance. he should be the definition of balance.
catch the ball, clear the defender out with your brute force, dunk/finish.
brute force = fouls
pek is trying to adjust to the nba, where fighting for position down low means you foul. not so in the Euroleague.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Well, he is a rookie
And he played in a different league all his life.
What do you expect from a backup center anyhow? A lot of teams don’t even have one. Pek is fine, his skills are there, and he has NBA size.
Again, this is people judging the returns a bit too fast.
Too bad there wasn't a back-up center available in the draft at #4
Hypothetically, a rookie who would play back-up this year, and grow into his dominating player role.
by ThisIsForSota on Jan 4, 2011 12:51 AM CST up reply actions
Our #4 pick hit 6 3s the other night.
Pek has been a little disappointing but on draft night he was still “the best 5 in Europe.”
by fanslaststand on Jan 4, 2011 5:24 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Pek?
Hey, Wolves win if Telfair gets Flynn’s minutes.
You can't dust for vomit.
Here--try the Red Pill instead
The Wolves give up four years in average age and five years of average experience to the Celtics, who were fielding 3 HOFamers, two of whom can still bring it (and when they can’t the refs are right there to help), in front of a Boston crowd that was more engaged and motivated than they wanted to be.
If you would have told me at the end of that horrific 2-29 run to finish last season that by the halfway point of this season Darko, Love, and Beasley would all be playing much better than expected, the team would be competitive in games against some of the best in the league, and Rubio would be much more likely to join the Wolves next season, I wouldn’t have believed it.
But all those things are true. The Wolves are a good point guard and serviceable SG away from being a passable, 30-40 win team, and with an average age that will likely still be the lowest in the NBA next year. Rubio may be the PG (and if not, there will be several draftable candidates), and Wes at least isn’t a bust at the SG position. They’re the most enjoyable lottery team to watch, Blake Griffin notwithstanding. They’re having fun. There are no contract squabbles, or off-court issues. They have a chance to recapture the Twin Cities’ attention, and even the national spotlight every once in a while, and for the right reasons.
Was there some implicit or explicit guarantee that this mismatched band of disrespected cast-offs was going to contend for a play-off spot? Yes, this loss and the ones like it are frustrating. But this is what a very young, very inexpensive 25-win team looks like.
It gets better.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
by PoorDick on Jan 4, 2011 12:10 AM CST reply actions 10 recs
And thank you
Finally someone says what I feel like is so obvious.
I understand the difference of options, but what exactly are our expectations. Isn’t a very entertaining team with a tremendous amount of talent enough?
Anyways, it’s nice to know I am not crazy, and that other people see this with a little optimism.
I hate to disagree with someone who agrees with me
but:
1. I’m not sure there is a “tremendous” amount of talent here. Love and Beas are flawed, but for real. Darko, Webster, and Wes may be legitimate NBA starters—but must improve for that to happen. The rest are bench players.
2. Just because other people aren’t wildly disappointed with the Wolves, it does not mean you are not crazy.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
Lol
Wow, you must have had quit a change of heart in the last hours.
There is a “tremendous” amount of talent here. It also depends on how you frame the argument. One could compare our talent to last year, to the average NBA team, or to the Miami Heat. From my perspective, we have a great deal of talent.
Also, whats with the pot-shot about being crazy? You probably could of stopped your comment after point 1.
I think all of that is entirely reasonable
I know it’s going to get better. My big beef right now is that it should be getting a lot better were Kahn and Rambis replaced with people who could actually do the job. This is probably a bad analogy, but these guys are like Goldman Sachs. They’re being handed massive amounts of interest free money straight out of the Fed’s window and it is damn near impossible for them not to make money simply because they have so many free resources coming on to the books. The Wolves have two nice young players with a bunch of draft picks. How bad would Kahn and Rambis have to get a negative return on that sort of capital input?
I view them as having taken a 2 year deck-shuffling tour in order to turn Jefferson/Love into Beasley/Love and to surround them with a bunch of ok (at best) lotto picks. Yes, they’re enjoyable. Beasley and Love are fantastic to watch. They’re fun and you can really tell they enjoy eacthother since they played AAU ball together. That being said, I honestly believe they are at 9 wins in spite of their front office and bench. It is amazing to me to think that they are where they are mainly because Love is very, very, very good at basketball. Outside of a single player going nuts (and doing so in the gaps/spaces of the offense and off of the glass), what has this system/coaching staff/front office coaxed out of anyone else on the roster? It’s not Darko. I think people have short memories and have blocked out what he did in Orlando.
The plan here is very similar in practice to what McHale was doing: build around two guys who roughly play the same position and hope for the arrival of something special. Combine with bad drafting and questionable coaching. Wash, rinse, repeat. To me, Jefferson/Love/Miller/Foye is roughly the same amount of talent they have on this team. Rubio could be good but I don’t think he’ll be appreciatively better than a non-Rubio alternate reality with any non-Flynn PG on the roster with whomever.
That being said, I know it will get better. It has to. By sheer numbers of 1st round draft picks they have to back themselves into at least a decent rotation player or two and that is probably enough to surround Love and Beasley with enough talent to win 30-40 games and maybe compete for the playoffs in a few years…which is exactly the same place I think they would have been in an alternate BabHoiCock universe 2 years earlier. Plus, with the last top lotto pick before Clippergeddon, I’m not exactly looking forward to Kahn’s plans for the draft. After this year, they’re back where they were in the Days of Suck: Shaddy draft land. Wes Johnson + a modest starter this year isn’t going to cut it. Here’s hoping they hit the jackpot.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
When it comes to Rubio, the elephant in the room is...
How the hell is Kurt Rambis going to bring out the best in Ricky Rubio? What evidence is there to suggest that Kurt Rambis or Kurt Rambis’ “offense” can bring out the best in any point guard, much less to say a point guard who can’t shoot.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Shhhh
Rambis does wonderful things with point guards.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Well I'm on record right now as saying
1) If Rubio comes over
2) We still run this “offense”
Then it’s going to be a shit storm. Rambis will have two options…
A) He can choose to not play Rubio (at which point everyone will be very pissed)
or
B) He can play Rubio, and Rubio will be a square peg in the butthole that is this “offense,” and the Wolves will continue to have an awful record…and that’s not going to fly when there is no lottery pick on the way.
Something’s gotta give right? Right??????
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Something's gotta give. That would be option C).
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
I think
That the quickest way for Rambis to get fired is to underutilize Rubio when he comes over. I know for a fact that when Kahn hired Rambis the main reason why was because Rambis sold him on how awesome this team would be around Rubio. if Rambis cannot deliver on this, it may be the only way he gets canned before his 4 years are up.
Or is it that Rambis
doesn’t yet have quality PGs on deck?
Rambis inherited last seasons roster. Flynn was all on Kahn. The only change during Rambis’ tenure is Ridnour and Kahn followed him from birth (I believe).
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Whatever arguments can be made, Rambis and Kahn will have to make 'em with Rubio and his reps.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Agreed across the board.
One thing that might come to fruition is that Taylor decides Kahn and Rambis were fine moving the team through this last transition phase, but once the young players are in place, they both get a thankyouverymuch and others step in to take the team from suckitude to respectability.
A Skiles-like defensive coach, or one who can maximize Rubio’s talents, or doesn’t have a “history” with Love. A GM who has done it before, rather than one who will work cheap and is recommended by the league.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
From digging around a bit...
…I think there are two main impediments between a Rambis/Kahn free world. First, Rambis’ contract. It’s bigger than Kahn’s and I seriously doubt Papa Glenn will pay anything more than needed to coach a bad team. Second, there is probably no way Kahn has the internal basketball credibility to lay down the hammer on Rambis without explicit approval from the top. Were he to ask for approval, it raises an ugly series of questions: Wasn’t he your guy? Well, what do you mean he’s not getting the most out of the talent? What talent are you talking about? So why isn’t he playing Jonny Flynn? What do you mean Darko and Love and Beasley don’t play well together? And so on and so forth.
There’s a weird Catch 22 going on right now with Kahn and Rambis. The cooking v. shopping debate is on but they are strangely co-dependent, especially in terms of job security.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Kahn and Rambis should feel very lucky...
That Minnesotans are so apathetic towards this team. Any other sport and it’s hard not to imagine a Chilly/Brewster-esque witch burning taking place.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/coaches.html
He’s now been given more time than Jimmy Rodgers and is 5 games away from reaching the amount of time Dwane Casey was given.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
I've been a Rambis critic...
but I think his situation is different from those guys in terms of the league today, and the situation of this team. Kahn blew the thing up again, emphasized building a champion takes time, needs superstars, etc… and Rambis is doing more teaching than coaching.
The one thing I have to give Rambis credit for is that there HAS BEEN improvement, this year. Early on, I wasn’t sure if that were the case. Even if it’s small improvement, we should acknowledge sometimes that it’s improvement, nonetheless. When that improvement stops—and this is true for coaches of almost any team in any sport—is when he finds himself on the hotseat. So, we can fairly expect a better 2nd Half than 1st from Kurt and more wins next year than this, from him.
I understand and agree that parts of this are frustrating, but we’ve strung together a few wins (NOLA win being very impressive) and competitive losses. I must say that the past few weeks have been a noticeable improvement. Miami and Orlando seem like a very long time ago, and if we played them again, I think the game would be competitive at halftime, at least.
I'm telling you right now...
…I’m not giving you any of the profits for the “At least they’re competitive at halftime” shirts I’m going to start selling on the site. ;)
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Ha
And that may not mean much against Miami… they seem to be able to turn a 20-point halftime deficit into a 20-point lead rather easily, these days.
they're awesome
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
I still kind of think...
The only improvement we’ve seen this year exists because we compare it to the self-induced sucking we had to choke down last year.
Ryan Hollins!!
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Right, but even if that's the case...
it’s still improvement that is ongoing. That’s sort of my point—until the improvement—(no matter what horrible place it started from)—stops, we shouldn’t be too aggressive in calling for Rambis’ head.
You're waiting for the Wolves to plateau at this point?
Wins:
44
33
32
22
24
15
…?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
by feral on Jan 4, 2011 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think that plateau...
was the home stretch of last season, carried into the first few weeks of this season—don’t you think?
I'm not ready to concede that...
I still harbor significant resentment from last year.
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Jimmy + Dwane
Didn’t inherit entirely rebuild rosters over two consecutive seasons. Big difference.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I trust your insight and judgement
way more than my two eyeballs and one brain (all three of which are slowly deteriorating).
But on a strictly cost-benefit-potential basis, the players aren’t the problem right now. So if Glen’s dissatisfied with the on-court or in-stands results, he’s not going to let Kahn and Rambis restart over with yet more rookies, or veterans off the scrap heap.
Either the team improves or Kahn and/or Rambis are gone. Maybe not in 2011, but, pending the lockout, by the second half of the 2012 season. Ronzone gets Kahn’s slickback comb, Lamebeer moves over a chair to fill the interim position on the bench, and the search begins for more “permanent” solutions.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
I've asked several people...
…who they think goes first, and it’s a universal answer: “Kahn”. The caveat is that they think both make the season because of the Catch 22, but nobody seems to think that Kahn has either the cahones and/or basketball credibility to lay down the coaching ax.
I 100% agree that the players aren’t the problem right now.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
There's a life lesson here...
Something along the lines of “when in doubt, build strong relationships”
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
How much of Kahn's security...
is dependent on crowd attendance?
Seems to me that they need to get butts in the upper deck seats. Right now, there are entire sections that are empty.
It still seems way fuller than last season.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
That depends . . .
on what corner you’re working.
Har.
You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus
by Cynical Jason on Jan 4, 2011 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know
I do have a feeling that there is a day of reckoning and that it’s somewhat defined, but I don’t have the first clue what that is. I know that the team did a number of things specifically designed for fan development and to put butts in the seats early on and I think they’ve done a good job making this happen. They’ve even benefited from bad Vikings and Wild teams and a new Twins stadium that has revitalized the area. I think it’s fuller, but I’m not sure what that means in terms of actual revenue, as a large number of tickets are subsidized. There has definitely been more energy in there but I think that has a large part to do with their awesome ticket offers and marketing and I think there is a point where the marketing stuff runs out and they’re left with…well, they’re left with something they didn’t think they’d be left with.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
To make some obvious points...
it’d be great for revenue if they could just get some beer-drinking butts in the nose-bleeds.
Also, with great crowds, the games would be more fun.
They just need a way to get this started—there isn’t all that much entertainment in downtown Minneapolis in the winter. I’m a little surprised that the team sucking has had such an effect on attendance.
The Andrew Bogut..
…player-sponsored section would be awesome.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Absolutely. Great idea. Not sure why more teams haven’t followed suit. Who knew sports was about cheering for the on-court product and not a t-shirt toss.
They had mentioned before the season that they had soemthing like this in the works
I’ll follow up on it to see where it stands.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
I'm sorry
you lost me with the beer drinking butts and bleeding noses.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
Maybe it was drinking beer through the nose and
…err, never mind
Agree. Though a non-season ticket holder I attend about 10-15 per season. There is such a caveat sitting in the lower level because more often than not if any fan yells or trash talks the other team, the only response is terror/snobbery from everyone around you. It’s as if rooting for the home team is “un-cool,” that is, if you can get past your view being partially obstructed by gaudy Coach purses and giant sunglasses. Not to mention unless you are sideline the view sucks in the lower level.
I actually sat in the upper for the first time in years against LA a couple months ago. Had a blast up there, surprisingly. Not sure it would be the same against a non-sellout though.
Yea, the players are the problem
and Taylor has indicated the same. Taylor has said he expects improvement this season and at the end of the season, I suspect he will see it.
Time-in-the-league, time-playing-together-as-a-unit do matter in the NBA.
Rambis is correct in saying that the difference for the Wolves between winning and losing this season has been comparatively high turnovers and high personal fouls. This is a reflection of players not having played together as a unit for more than 36 games (Flynn, Webster, Tolliver, Pek being injured during the 36 games).
Just as important as a final score, the biggest differentials between winning teams and losing teams is the number of turnovers and personal fouls. A recent example is Beasley having to play sparingly in the first half against Boston because of fouls.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
PD...
I understand the quest for more optimism…
but no way in hell that Option A is happening.
Appreciate the effort though
I'm ready to be swayed Wesley Johnson!!
Now I have an image in my head
of David Kahn landing a jet on the Target Center roof, and then standing at halfcourt wearing a flight jumper and the Black Russian codpiece, praising the team’s 25-57 record in front of a banner that reads “Championship Won.”
Sorry—my brain is broken.
You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus
by Cynical Jason on Jan 4, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Hum. In that example, one could only fire Rambis or Kahn moments before giving said person a T'Wolves Medal of Valor.
Glen’s loyalism and gift for passively riding out situations that require resolution – not the thing I needed you to remind me of. I had season tickets that year, when McHale stepped down and we ‘Watched to see how things would come out before making a decision’ about the FO.
When we’re talking about who goes first, we probably need to keep Glen’s “He’s my guy, I’m stickin’ by him” nature in mind.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
There would be nothing, nothing whatsoever, unusual about that arc.
Coaches and GMs are like players, they have strengths and weaknesses. I wouldn’t want to rebuild with Pat Riley in his prime as coach, and he didn’t want to coach in that situation either.
The unfortunate necessity of actively recognizing when you need to shift gears is the rub, though. Kevin Pritchard spent about two years where he was unwilling to use the “clutch” pedal on Portland’s franchise.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Good stuff
Add to that list that Love is doing things no one has done for 20+ years. What’s the record for most 20+ rebound games in the last 20 or 30 years. I’m honestly curious, because he has to be getting there.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Since 1989, when the Wolves started out,
Here’s a raw count of players getting more than 20 boards in a game over their careers. Love is on that list with 7 games – 35th best for his career among all active NBA players, but then it’s only his third season and he really didn’t start getting starter’s minutes until year 3.
Here are the individual seasons involved, with counts for each of those players in each season. Love, again, is up there with 6 games this year in less than half a season.
But if you want a sense of perspective, here, follow the links and take a look at the top of both those lists. Dennis Rodman will curl your eyebrows.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
(And the raw count for only the three years Love has been active is:
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Whew I forgot about the worm
39 fricken games is unreal. Just.. unreal.
Klove is poised to pass the likes of Duncan, KG and Shaq’s best seasons with another 3 games, though, which is pretty absurd.
Think of this, though: he could be so much better if our team improved at forcing misses and/or we were to pick up a legit slasher who collapsed defenses away from Love. If a defender cheats off Love to help out on a slasher, Love will get that board 9/10 times if the shot is missed. He’s doing what he’s doing now on a pretty sloppy team. Imagine if he took Perk’s place on the C’s during that championship year. He could have averaged 18 boards with all the misses they force.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
If Love was in Perk's place in '08, would they have forced all those misses?
But yeah, point taken. Basically any skill you have as a player is going to show better in a team with some danged structure around you.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Not as many, certainly
but a D anchored by KG and Rondo is still going to produce quite a few opportunities for Mr. Love. I’d really like to see it, that’s for sure.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
I guess I disagree, big-picture-wise, with this post
I think a plan is starting to fall into place. The Wolves got a lot of good shots out of their offense, are playing slightly improved defense, and just about beat one of the best teams in the East (minus KG/Perk) on the road. Love & Beasley looked very good to me. Darko was outplaying the Celtic’s Cs – he was just in foul trouble.
The big issue to me is the same as it has been all year — guard play.
The two follow-up issues are:
1) Can Wes defend SGs and become more well-rounded offensively (not just a shooter)?
2) Is Rubio coming and a starting PG?
The answers to those questions are crucial IMO for the team to start winning more games. If the answer to either is ‘No’, then Kahn needs to make moves. Luke/Flynn/Telfair/Webster are all backups. Brewer will be lucky to be signed for the minimum by someone this summer.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
…it’s hard to blame Kurt Rambis for calling a timeout with 10 seconds left in the game and a streaking/unguarded Wes Johnson headed towards the opposite rim.
Are you sure it was Rambis who called the TO?
Just watched the highlights and it sure look like KLove made the T sign with his hands immediately after he came down with the rebound, Rambis was on the sidelines with his arms at his sides.
It was called in the huddle before play started - it was almost automatic - can't
blame anyone on that one. Yeah, looked like Kevin signed & tried to cover it up. No dice.
Thing is, the Wolves need to enter the 4th with a big lead because they haven’t the coolness
that a veteran team has in short minutes. That’s why I was pleading for more separation.
The Wolves piss away leads drip by drip. Coolhand Luke also starts playing really stupid
in crunch time. He looks like two different people. He has the skills, but he loses confidence
as the clock runs down. If we just had a steady PG in the last 5 minutes, we’d have won most
of those 10 games we should have won. Sit Jonny Flynn the full 48. He’s only good for
scrimmage.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
Luke in crunch time
I noticed that, when there is a turnover or some other big screwup in the last few minutes of a close game, Luke will inevitably try to do something ill-advised all by himself on the next possession.
Love was mad
To me it looked like he had his arm cocked to throw an outlet to a wide open Wes when he heard the whistle. He then kind of jumped up and down like “MAN, WTF!”
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Sit Flynn. His relief stints are killing us.
If Bassy’s not injured, play him. He would have been good on Rondo. Jonny is just
clueless; even Heinsohn picked up on that right away.
"Fighting contraction since 1989"
I watched the game until 4 am in my time zone because it was a good one.
We could’ve won this ,but ,as expected,Boston started playing the best defense that they could in fourth quarter.I knew that was going to happen and thought at the end of third that we are doomed,especially when I saw that Beasley was out of rhythm because he sat on the bench for a long time.But I was thrilled by the way he played in fourth.I think that it is almost certain by now that he will become superstar much sooner than expected.His shooting ability is really,really great and he has so much pure talent and he is only 21.P.Pierce also played great in last quarter.He still can draw fouls on himself better than Beasley,and in my opinion,only because of that they came back offensively and took the lead in fourth.It is safer way to play when game is on the edge of winning.Love did his part of job excellent,but it is clear that he can’t play great one on one offensively when opposing players push him away from rim while playing as strong offense as Boston did yesterday,but it was so clear how much he wanted to carry the team,so he took a hard three pointer,and badly missed.I think that Darko played very good.In last ten or so games,I think that not one center had a great game against him(of course,when he played significant minutes,I’m not counting games when he was injured,please correct me if I’m wrong).It seems to me that he started to easily score 10 or more points per game when healthy with good percentage,even while playing limited minutes because of foul trouble.I think that Flynn played so much because he guarded Rondo or Robinson better than Ridnour,but he was really bad offensively.Last attack was nice,but Luke was pretty stupid,he could’ve passed or shot from mid-distance
This team has a great future,i’m not at least concerned with end result of this reconstruction project
by Baasho on Jan 4, 2011 9:20 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Interesting what frustrates us
I hate the losing, and am pessimistic about the future of this group, but last night wasn’t in my top 10 of frustrating losses on the season. It was, obviously, very similar to a lot of games this year, but it was also on the road against a better team in a tough arena. One development last night was I thought the Wolves actually had a semblance of a defensive game plan, and they executed it. Sag off Rondo, give Davis the 18 footer, and run everyone else off the 3 pointers. They didn’t give up a ton of open layups like usual, held the Cs to 20 FTAs, and held them to 5-16 from 3. Yes, Allen got away from them a little. and Pierce had that run in the 3rd quarter; those guys are hall of famers. They were right there despite shooting poorly.
As for this, which SnP wrote above:
The 1 point victory would have represented something of a breakthrough, especially had it been done, say, on a last-second iso play with Beasley. Against a sterile spreadsheet this was a predictable defeat. Against real-time "battle" conditions, it was a heart breaker. I think this is what differentiates this game. They had the damn thing. Squeaking one by the Celtics would have represented another step in this team being able to do things that were previously unheard of: closing out a game on the road and avoiding Groundhog Day.
I don’t generally agree. A 1 point win would have been better than a loss, sure. But I doubt it would have meant much long term, and point differential matters. Ultimately, a 3 point loss is more similar to a 1 point win than it is to a 25 point loss. The more of these and the fewer of those is a good thing.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Jan 4, 2011 9:28 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I view it as Beasley Training
If they really think he’s The Guy…well, I can’t imagine Phil Jackson explaining to Kobe that he’s going to be the inbounds passer on the last play of the game….and no, I’m not saying he’s Kobe. They played down the stretch like they were bringing a .20 cal on safari. I wanted to see them fire the big gun to see if it works and I think that, among a few other late-game horrors, would have been very, very notable.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
I guess you're right about this
Beasley should have had the ball. I suppose it doesn’t resonate as much with me because I don’t see him as the future alpha scorer on a really good team, even though he’s clearly the best shot creator on this team.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Jan 4, 2011 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
I think you're right about him being..
…a somewhat problematic alpha scorer who will probably never really score efficiently (as a mini-Melo, I think he’s headed down this road), but he’s their scorer. If there’s one thing I’ve taken away from the last few years, it’s that you keep your best players and work with them to the best of your abilities. Al Jefferson and Kevin Love can’t play defense? Tough, they’re the best players you can get your hands on and you roll with the punches. Mike Beasley relies on mid-range jumpers and doesn’t get to the line enough? Well…I’m a Basketball Jesus atheist at this point and I think games like this need to be utilized like they matter….a lot.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
This I agree with
make the best of what you’ve got. Not, apparently, Rambis’ forte. I’m just not sure that, had they done so, and had Beasley come through, it would mean much going forward. Would have been nice, though.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Jan 4, 2011 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know if Leslie Frazier knows anything about basketball...
…but I want what the Vikes have at this point. Take his presser and switch it over to 600 First Avenue.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
I agree with you 100%
But don’t yout hink (hope?) the play was to get the ball inbounds and then go back to Beas? Pretty standard basketball 101 — inbounds guy is pretty dangerous — they had something like 10 secs at that point, so plenty of time. Rondo overplayed, Luke went backdoor and you know the rest.
I’m firmly in your camp though — these collapses / close losses in the 4th quarter happen too often to be merely chance. Why after almost 1/2 a season can’t they figure out a zone most of the time? Why don’t they have go-to plays down the stretch? Why do other teams generallyg get good shots out of timeouts but we often don’t? How come we don’t value the basketball? Why is Kosta allowed to shoot 15 foot jumpers when he comes in? Why aren’t we focused on getting our best players shots in good spots for them?
I get the team is young, but these questions should have been answered / addressed by now. I’ve been encouraged by the defense played in the last game and a half, but i’m not sure this team will keep up its effort if it doesn’t get results. And Rambis, to my eyes, isn’t doing much to help this team be successful, namely play to his players’ strengths and minimize their weaknesses.
I hope that was the intent of the play. I really do.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Beasley was executing down the stretch
which for me is why the loss wasn’t so bad. He was stepping up and being the guy, and having fun doing it. It was an important progression after his meltdown(s) following his big scoring nights earlier this season. He’s your scorer down the stretch, and K-Love needs to be in the vicinity of the basket to provide second chances. Beasley shouldn’t have been in the passer on that play unless he was supposed to get it back.
The main reason they lose last night is the defense still isn’t good enough. Total lapses on the two Rondo buckets. Should be fixable, though who knows with this staff.
The point guard play isn’t good enough either, and it is disappointing given that Rubio, Flynn, Lawson, Sessions, Ridnour all have been acquired (and unacquired). I’m not sold on Rubio and would be interested in seeing what they could get for him on the market.
For me
the frustration is cumulative. You’re right, Eric, this isn’t in isolation a Letterman Top 10 Most Frustrating Wolves losses in franchise history. I’m just getting weary of spending two hours watching a winnable game only to see the Wolves go down in defeat in the end. Perhaps a silver lining would be enhanced confidence and a stronger drive to win.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
No doubt
I’m way past weary. It sucks. Losing sucks.
I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!
by Eric in Madison on Jan 4, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
that's a very good way to put it
the season is already over in a sense:
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/23546/is-the-season-already-over-for-some-nba-teams
that’s been going on for a while and it’s absolutely corrosive.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Slowing down?
Have the wolves ever considered slowing down when they have a big lead in the 4th quarter. It just seems like we run down the court and take a shot with 18 seconds on the shot clock. Why don’t we slow the pace of play down when we have a 5-10pt lead in the 4th!!! Just doesn’t make sense, especially when the celtics play slow as well. Just seems like a no brainer to me but I could be wrong. So very frusturating to watch, also I think we have the worst pg situation in the league. Its miserable.
Another elephant in the room.
The pace the Wolves play at is an expression of the whole “United We Run” doctrinal idea, but young teams typically don’t kick off their improvement playing that way. Young teams, typically, slow down, don’t they?
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Khan & the Powerball
Kahn’s strategy of hoping that a series of long shots comes through seems doomed from the start. 1. What are the odds that Rubio signs here? 2. What are the odds that Rubio lives up to the hype? 3. What are the odds that Beasley becomes the consistently dominant player that he wasn’t in Miami? 4. What are the odds that Darko finally becomes the Center that he has not been in Detroit, Miami, Orlando, Memphis or NY? 5. What are the odds that Wes Johnson learns how to handle the ball better than Corey Brewer? While Kahn might get lucky and get three of the five right, for the Wolves to win the West they need to get all five right and then get the Powerball right in the draft next year.
Young guys
make mistakes. They don’t close out and they don’t understand how good they are. When I was the same age as most of our Wolves, I was busy signing rip-off time installment contracts for new stereo equipment, blowing my paycheck at the poker table while overtipping for watered down shots at titty bars. And that was in Iowa!
Give these pups a little more time.
Skittles, Beazy or Beaz-el-zabub?
I'm not sure how
how your younger days sound that bad—it actually sounds pretty fun (except for paying to see Iowa titties, of course)
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
I left out the part about Reagan getting elected
and all I had were debts instead of savings heading into a world class suck of a recession in which over ten percent of Iowa workers had to leave the state to find jobs (and Iowa just reelected that same Governor after it took twenty years to recover from his first go around).
Skittles, Beazy or Beaz-el-zabub?
I took a look at the game wrap on CelticsBlog
and some of the posters were pretty complimentary of the Wolves. It was along the lines of “adding Rubio will give the Wolves their Big 3 (Love, Beasley, and Rubio), and they could be pretty scary in a couple of years.”
Not that they know more about the Wolves than we do, but I thought it was interesting to get an outside view of the team. It might be a little easier for them to keep perspective on the close losses (although I suppose you could also say they’re rationalizing a close game against their team).
Here’s the link.
Average that out with whatever the Magic fans had to say...
and you’ve probably got yourself an accurate write-up on the State of the Timberwolves:)
That seems to be the case on quite a few opposing boards
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that fans of a good percentage of other teams have a sunnier outlook of our team than we do.
Reference librarian time: Stuff they said about Love.
Kevin Love came as advertised, as he finished with a 12-point, 24-rebound double-double. At halftime he had 15 rebounds of his own, while the Celtics, as a team, had 14. He scored only one point after halftime, however, and airballed an important shot down the stretch in the fourth.
….Baby got owned by Love on boards.
1) The Wolves are a fantastic rebounding team, especially Kevin Love (who is a freak).
milicic/love combo really caused them rebounding problems
K.Love killed on the boards.
I’d beat up BBD for the rebounds … except
for the fact that Kevin Love is killing EVERYBODY on the glass this year.
The guy is a freak for rebounds. Epic even.
Fortunately, he still doesn’t know how to play decent defense!
Davis was schooled by Love on rebounding, which was a bit surprising because Davis is fairly quick on his feet. But Love has entered a new dimension this season.
It seems to me that we only finally started to ‘slow’ (I use that word loosely) Kevin Love’s rebounding rate after Jermaine came in. And his 4 block shots and assorted diverted shots definitely cooled down a few of those easy put-backs that the Wolves had been getting.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Missed one:
Kevin Love outrebounded the entire Celtic team in the 1st half. Shaq and Big Baby seemingly forgot how to box out and couldn’t keep the Twolves off the glass. Love set a TD Garden record for most rebounds by an opposing player.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
You realize of course that pre-game
Doc Rivers compared Kevin Love to Rodman and Mark Landsberger (?)
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
Stuff they said about Beasley & the "big three" idea with Rubio:
couple of their young guys were simply knocking down shots. Beasley, johnson, webster all were just crushing jumpers
Beasley abused Pierce
> when did beasley abuse pierce?? he was making hard contested shots
>>Agreed. Thought Pierce did all he could and Beasley was just hitting everything
they can be a grea duo if only IF beasley desides to ‘’grow up’’
am not sayin that he bad right now he is good but to make the extra step on his career to put his ego behind his team
Paul Pierce …definitely struggled on defense late as he couldn’t stop Beasley from hitting big shots on several consecutive trips in the last few minutes.
Beasley and Love.
Maybe just be a GREAT duo, adding Darko to the mix makes them an Average trio.
If Rubio ever shows up, he very well may end up being the missing piece that puts it together for them.
If Rubio every comes over, That team will indeed be quite scary.
They’ll have completed their "Big 3" with Rubio, Beasley, Love.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
That game was all on Rambis.
He made a few crucial mistakes down the stretch that led to us losing. First, why he puts in Corey Brewer in the last minutes over Wes is beyond me. YOu can say defense, but he was cold and Wes was already in the game. THat folllowed with a terrible shot by Brewer and then having Brewer somehow lose Ray Allen on the offensive end for a three. Thus Brewer was now taken out. Also, Rambis’s hard on for Ridnour really showed tonight. After the fast break pull up jumpers and three point shots without one pass it looked like Luke thought he was playing for the knicks. Also his defense was a joke against Rondo. In the finals minutes ROndo torched us. He should have had a way more athletic guy on him just for defensive purposes like Flynn or even Telfair. Usually, the players just play bad, but this time Rambis is at fault.
Frightening Counterfactual
I’m grateful that Mchale is no longer GM. Why? Because the switch to a new regime, any new regime, provided hope. It still provides a A LITTLE hope. If McHale was still here I have this vision of a 5-year contract extension for Foye, trading an expiring Mike Miller for James Posey, and a Bassy is our PG of the future contract extension. I see no Rubio, ever. I see crap.
As nice of a job as McHale & Company did accumulating cap space and picks, I just think they would have screwed it up. I know it.
I don’t know yet about Kahn.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
Kahn can't screw this up
in the same way, because he can’t spend the money extending marginal players in desperate attempt to claw back into the playoffs.
Based on his draft picks and success-only-through-numerous-random-moves, I don’t think he’s ever going to get that chance.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
I'm having a debate with someone on another message board
If Donald Sterling came to us today and said “I’ll give you Blake Griffin for Kevin Love straight up”, would you take it? I said I wouldn’t. Other guy said I was crazy.
What does CH Think?
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Really? Other than better athleticism, what does Griffin have that Love doesn't?
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I know you can make an argument for Love
But…no. And better athleticism is an understatement.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 4, 2011 1:24 PM CST up reply actions
Long Term
Blake Griffin is amazing… and amazingly reckless.
I put the over/under on season-ending injuries at 4.
And, at some point those injuries will affect his athleticism, robbing him of his greatest gift.
I keep Love.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
If the biggest argument against a guy is "He's going to get injured playing that way"
that isn’t convincing enough for me to say someone else is better.
I know you’re right though, he is going to have to learn to play more controlled. But I imagine – hope – he will be able to do that with time.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 4, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions
How many more years do you think he has in him?
With his style, it wasn’t about “season-ending injuries.” It was about wear-and-tear cutting his career short. I’d be surprised if he’s a top RB 5 years from now.
I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.
Yeah, you're crazy on this one.
Griffin’s in a different league than Love. He scores well enough to command double teams, he’s got great awareness as a passer out of double teams, and he can guard 4’s one-on-one without help. He’s a future MVP candidate. This is no knock on Love—but there’s a limit to how good Love is, and Griffin is beyond it.
Yes.
The only advantage I see Love having over Griffin is that Griffin is likely to have multiple broken bones (both his and his opponents) by the time his career is over.
Love’s injuries tend to be confined to six-inch long scrapes on his fleshy, white arms.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
Love's injuries are so much more marketable, though.
Every real thought on every real subject knocks the wind out of somebody or other. – OWH
Griffin...
It could be that Griffin has injury troubles (he already missed a full season.) That would be like Antonio McDyess, who rivaled KG until injuries slowed him down.
But, Karl Malone could also be a comparison of Blake’s, and he is one of the more durable superstars of all time, I think.
But Malone was a freak with his training
and did he ever rely on his athleticism the way early McDyess did? That’s who I’ve always thought was Blake’s best comp. Pre-injury McDyess was a freak athlete (40+ inch vert, easy) whose game was all power and explosiveness.
But I know what you’re saying – just because one guy had career-altering knee injuries doesn’t mean another will. He’s so fun to watch that I really hope he stays healthy. The league needs as many highlight producing players as it can get.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
shawn kemp
no doubt. that’s his closest comparison right now as a rookie. he’s early stage shawn kemp. hopefully, he won’t impregnate los angeles.
Insincerity is the best sincerity. Survive and celebrate Bunny Month.
www.canishoopus.com
Why?
We’d have a crazy influx of draft prospects in 19-22 years, when we’re nearing the end stages of this rebuilding project.
by Andy G on Jan 4, 2011 8:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Bump
Set
SPIKE!
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
They're roughly equal players right now.
I think, by this time next year, Griffin will be leaps and bounds beyond Love.
Griffin's doing all this with an infantile post game.
He’s gonna be scary(-ier) in a year or two. Especially with Eric Gordon out there too.
Wolves/Clippers, 2015 Western Conference Finals! Catch the fever!
CATCH IT!
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 4, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions
You need to add Harrison Barnes...
who plays the 3 for that Clippers team. They will select him 1st Overall in the 2012 NBA Draft, via Minnesota Timberwolves.
I'd say Donald Sterling is crazy too
but that goes without saying.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
on the griffen-love debate
it’s really no debate to me.. as much as I like love as a player as he has blown all of my expectations for him out of the water, I would take griffin over love in a heartbeat. Griffin is a more complete player in my mind (he can create his own shot, far more athletic, bigger upside on defense, etc.), and it’s really not close. I think we’ve seen the best Love can offer which is outstanding to me, but Griffin’s ceiling is massive and we have not remotely seen it.
Where's the debate?
Love was available, Griffin wasn’t.
Breaking down cognitive dissonance and group think since gasoline was cheap.
I'd take Griffin in a cage match
And I’d pay to see a cage match between Griffin & Pek.
Sorry to change the subject, but as Flagrant says, why are we having this conversation? Love was available.
Kudos to McHale for getting Love and the breadcrumbs that led to the Rubio pick.
I can't wait for Rubio to come over
… and then the trade becomes Mayo traded for Love, Rubio and cap space.
Probably Mchale’s best trade (though he may have been happiest at trading JR Rider)
by midlife crisis on Jan 4, 2011 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
Well ... technically ...
it was Sam Cassell, Brandon Roy, OJ Mayo, and our own 2012 first round pick for Love, Rubio and Cap Space.
That’s really depressing. But I guess if you have to break up a former title contender because you were blind-sided by the inevitable contract demands of the 2 players that you added in order to push your team to title contender status, then I guess you could do worse – unless that 2012 pick turns out to be a top-3 pick, in which case you might as well light yourself on fire so the fans of the franchise you’re running don’t take up torches and pitchforks.
I really hope that Cap Space can play. He’s got kind of a funny name, but so did World B. Free and that guy could hoop!
My god McHale screwed the Wolves by not paying Cassell and Sprewell. The tears in my froot loops make them taste all the more sweet …
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
"My god McHale screwed the Wolves by not paying Cassell and Sprewell"
It's not that Cassell and Sprewell remained wildly productive for years to come.
It’s that if they were paid like they wanted to be they probably would have remained productive enough the following year for the Wolves to make another run at a championship. If the Wolves win a championship in the 2004-05 season, then it doesn’t really matter if they drop like a skydiver without a parachute after that. If they win only 20 games in 2005-06 and the rebuilding project takes until 2015-16 to put them back in the playoffs, then at least we get that one championship. I’d make that trade – unless this current rebuild results in multiple championships before 2021, in which case I’ll be quite pleased with the direction the franchise took and no longer bemoan the GM abilities of Kevin McHale.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Uhh . . .
so McHale’s big mistake was not paying Sprewell (and Cassell), and then Sprewell went out and tanked (while getting paid 14 million dollars), and Cassell got hurt? And if he would have paid them Sprewell would have tried harder(!) and Cassell wouldn’t have been injured? And the Wolves would have “made another run at a championship”?
I’m sorry, but in hindsight, not paying Sprewell and Cassell was a good move. We didn’t know it at the time, but we sure know it now.
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
Let's not give McHale too much credit, though.
After all, he tried to give Sprewell $7 million a year for a few more years at least, and was turned down. That in itself appears to have been well above the market rate for Latrell’s services.
Okay,
the two of you have officially boxed me in between “He didn’t offer enough money to Latrell” and “He offered too much money to Latrell.”
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
Feeling like Latrell's agent?
(Oh, wait, he didn’t have one at the time. Which is why he botched the whole thing so badly.)
Well, I think
Mr. Sprewell is regretting turning down that original contract offer . . .
Be good. Work hard. Have fun.
Can you blame the man? He’s gotta feed his family.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Jan 5, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions
All the negativity in this town sucks!
Give these guys time to gel. Let us collect on potentially 3 first round picks this year. Let us see what Rubio can bring to both sides of the ball (if he comes over). What good is it to make the playoffs this year anyways? So we can get ousted by a far superior team in the first round?
We probably don't want to make the playoffs this year.
But getting “playoff reps” is important for a young team. Getting to the playoffs, even to be ousted in the first round, provides valuable experience to a young team. Especially if the core of that young team is going to remain intact for a long while.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Rubio/Flynn
Unless Rubio shows up next season and fulfills all the hype this seems to be the glaring “missed opportunity” for Kahn, especially the Flynn pick right after Rubio. That said, whereas I previouysly thought they were two or three guys away from being competitive, it now feels like they are one or two guys away. Until they can put a complete team on the floor I find it difficult to fault Rambis for his coaching.
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