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Using the Amnesty?


Who would you use the amnesty provision on for the Wolves? If at all? Has to be a player currently under contract with the old CBA. Here are your Wolves under contract.

Star-divide

To use the amnesty, I would:

1. Choose a player with a high salary you don't need or want.

2. Consider the one that amnestying will help the salary cap the most and the longest.

3. Be willing to eat the salary.

The candidates to me in no order are: Martell Webster, Darko, Brad Miller, and Nikola Peckovic.

I say one of those so-called Centers. You have three of them and none of them are or will be that good. Plus, Martell's deal is just for this year.

What do you say?

Poll
Who would you amnesty?
Martell Webster
3 votes
Darko
47 votes
Brad Miller
13 votes
Pek
8 votes
Other
2 votes
No one
34 votes

107 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 45 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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I doubt they will use it

You have to consider the value of the resultant cap space against the value of the player, but also against the value of the player in trade.

I don’t know that the cap space would help them right now, unless there was someone worthwhile on the waiver wire. The available free agents are not an enticing bunch, given that the Wolves have no chance at the cream.

Still, I would consider using it on Milicic or Beasley.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 9:13 AM CST reply actions  

Why Beasley?

That makes little sense to me.

A guy who has a tone of potential, and could be tradeable if he gets off to a hot start? I think he’s a guy you keep for at least another season

by Wolvesguy on Nov 30, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

What potential is that? Really?

Perhaps he’s tradeable. I probably wouldn’t amnesty him, but I don’t think he has much trade value at all.

I never wanted the guy; I thought it was a bad idea. I don’t think he helps, and I don’t think he’s going to help, so the sooner they realize that and the sooner they start looking for other solutions, the happier I’ll be.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions  

I think

that your comments about Darko below are incompatible with your idea that Beasley is an amnesty candidate. If Darko is that bad, and signed for more years than Beasley (at similar salaries for this coming year) why would you ever use amnesty on Beasley?

As for his potential, it’s probably Glenn Robinson or something close to that. Not a great player, but better than any Timberwolf not-named Love, from last year at least. Beasley’s considerably more athletic than Big Dog, so there’s a chance he could learn to draw fouls in the paint, but a realistic assessment would be Big Dog.

by Andy G on Nov 30, 2011 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, yes

I would probably use it on Darko instead if I were going to use it at all. But Beasley has a higher cap figure for this year, and he’s more dangerous in my view. Management could still get confused about Beasley and resign him. That scares me. Still, you are right.

As for Glenn Robinson, without arguing the point…OK. Let’s say he does resemble Robinson. He was a classic player who was overvalued because of PPG. Radically overvalued. This is my fear, frankly. If he puts up 20+ a game this year without actually helping (which was much of Big Dog’s career), I fear that the Wolves will re-up him at an absurd price.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I guess I don't remember Big Dog being so overvalued as a pro player,

my recollection is that most considered him a mild bust after he was drafted first overall and paid a lot of money, up front. But, I do see that he made two All-Star games that were probably undeserved, so maybe you’re right to a degree. “Radically” is hyperbole, unless you know people who considered him some type of superstar after his career as a Boilermaker.

by Andy G on Nov 30, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions  

I was mostly thinking money

but you are correct that this was before the era of rookie salary scales, and he got a huge deal before donning a jersey. Still, if the Wolves offer Beasley a raise from what he’s making now, it’s a mistake. I think it’s a mistake to keep him at all, but extending him at a bigger payday would not be wise.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

The contract issues

are why I think he’s gone either after this year or via trade in the near future.

I don’t expect the team to commit a lot of long-term money to both Love and Beasley, unless Mike makes some strides as a defender and Adelman likes him.

If it plays out this way, they better damn well hope that Derrick Williams is a small forward, or they can trade him for a scorer. Removing Beasley from last year’s roster would be akin to Jefferson tearing his ACL in ‘09. Bassy to Miller to Foye to Bassy to Miller to Foye… EEEEHHHHHHH (that’s my 24-second buzzer sound).

by Andy G on Nov 30, 2011 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

To the numbers machine!

Glenn v Beasley:

Through 3 years

Glenn

p/36: 19.7
TS: .534
oreb: 5.6%
to: 15.3%
ws/48: .059
usg: 27.5
PER: 16.6

Beasley:

p/36: 19.8
TS: .14
oreb: 6%
to: 11.1%
ws/48: .069
usg: 27.3
PER: 16.2

Glenn’s ppg: 21.1. Beasley’s: 15.9. Seeing how similar their games are for the first 3 years of their career, I think you make a pretty damn good point about where Robinson’s game was overvalued. He played 38.5 mpg compared to Beasley’s 28.9 mpg.

Seeing that they just drafted another iteration of the oversized 3/undersized 4 scorer, I think the best option for the Wolves is to wait and see if D-Will can shoot the pro 3 at a decent clip before making the Beasley decision. Williams shot the hell out of the 3 last year and this opened up his game in isolation and off the pick and roll. If that dynamic exists in the pros, hooray. If not, well, they then have 2 #2 pick slotted salaries on essentially the same type of player.

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 30, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

A reason to wait!

You wait to use the amnesty if:

You want to see what a new player has vs. an old one (the DWill v. Beasely here).

You don’t see a viable FA to spend the $ on.

No one is that strong of an amnesty candidate anyway, but one may become well with general future sucktitude or injuries.

by ChicagoViking on Nov 30, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

It is pretty remarkable

how similar these guys were as 22 year old scorers on crappy teams that needed their scoring.

I mean, per 36, they are basically identical at all the main production stats.

by Andy G on Nov 30, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I would take Glen Robinson 1998-2002 on my team, whether overvalued or not.

Derrick Williams was going to Bust...but then he was selected by the Timberwolves!

by Ebomb on Nov 30, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Particularly

when your team has no other player who can score against defense.

by Andy G on Nov 30, 2011 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree with everything said here.

I don’t even think Beast is gonna be amazing, but I think using the amnesty on him would be a massive mistake. If his career isn’t meant to be here, we’ll know after this season and he can just walk in free-agency.

I’m still hoping he has a huge first half and we can package him for a draft pick.

by Wolvesguy on Nov 30, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Isn't Beasley

the SF version of Al Jefferson?

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Nov 30, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

The guy scored 30+ like 8 times last year

Guy is streaky, especially in the 2nd half, but games like that Kings and Clippers games early in the season are legitimate views to what the guy could potentially do.

That’s not to say he is that guy already, but I think it is a little shortsighted to completely write the guy off as a lost cause.

Zach Randolph, 8 years into his career fully realized his potential. Beast has a lot of Bball left in him, maybe that’s hear, maybe it’s not.

by Wolvesguy on Nov 30, 2011 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's not forget Beasley supposedly had a bad ankle sprain for much of the year

That may have just been front office guys blowing smoke up our asses, but his scoring potential is well worth giving him another year, especially with Adelman.

by pae808 on Nov 30, 2011 6:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Darko

I’d amnesty Darko if it means we can bring someone else in. Last year I had such hopes for him and it just got so hard watching him make the same mistakes over and over. Even if half his problem is confidence, he didn’t show me much at all worth keeping.

Randolph, Pekovic and Miller/Tolliver/Love can fill the 5 in his absence, and all can probably do it better. Blocking a few shots a game doesn’t make up for all the other crap he does poorly.

by skelman on Nov 30, 2011 9:26 AM CST reply actions  

Amnesty Darko...

and offer Greg Oden a four-year contract worth $20 Million, daring Portland to match. Don’t play Oden all year, just continue working with his rehab and recovery. A recent report is that he is only cleared to run, right now. No basketball, yet. He can take Portland’s qualifying offer of $8.8 Million for one year, but risk losing out on the additional $11.2 Million over three years. Given his health history, I would guess that he would take the years and guaranteed money. Maybe not.

Next season, a recovered Greg Oden can be our draft pick. In the meantime, the Wolves can use Love, Randolph and Pekovic at center and see if anything sticks, there.

by Andy G on Nov 30, 2011 9:43 AM CST reply actions  

Man we've been talking about this for two years, during which he hasn't played

I know at one point I agreed (sort of) that it was a reasonable risk to take on the theory that it was one of the only ways for the Wolves to acquire a real impact guy (remember the thread about Love for Oden? I was against it then, but I saw the other side).

At this point, no. It’s just throwing money away on lottery tickets. I mean, I get it. Amnesty Darko, get a little cap room. What are you going to do with it? Grab a mediocre free agent? Does that really help? Versus the possible reward of Oden? But the reward isn’t going to be there. Even if he manages to get back on the court for any stretch of time, I can’t believe that these injuries won’t have taken their toll on his ability.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Your cranky, realistic approach

is not going to help put Greg Oden in a Wolves uniform.

by Andy G on Nov 30, 2011 10:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I've always known I was the problem

You could have been nicer about saying so, though.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Which is also

what using the amnesty is as well.

by Dr. Wolfenstein on Nov 30, 2011 11:51 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

For a team like the Wolves, definitely

There’s no reason to use the thing without it being tied to the acquisition of another asset.

by Stop-n-Pop on Nov 30, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

+1

Why PAY Darko, or anyone on the Wolves for that matter, to NOT play? It’s not like you’ll be strapped for cash most likely. If something drastic happens, perhaps.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Nov 30, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

First off

Darko’s contract is reasonable. He’s the second best center we’ve ever had (Al Jefferson was a power forward), behind only Luc Longley, and his contract is almost precisely the average contract in the NBA. Any center we could get replacing him would be much worse. The people that made fun of the deal are mathematically illiterate. Technically, among our current players, Pekovic is the best amnesty candidate, but it’s possible he could develop into an NBA player. Brad Miller is an obvious amnesty choice, but I believe it’s just one year left. Martell Webster is an outside shooter, which we sorely lack. If Pekovic is a bust for another season, we should amnesty him then, if we can’t trade him.

Second, an offer for Oden would freeze $5 million in place for 3 days, during which the amnesty and free agent parade would pass us by. (We’re only about $10 million below the cap now.) Portland will match any offer…they’re not doing all that well, and if they let the top pick in the draft walk away, it will cost them significant fan support for years. An offer on Oden would benefit Portland, by allowing them to underpay Oden without Oden feeling resentful, and it would cost us significantly in the amnesty and free agency derby.

Also, once we sign D Williams, we’ll be less than $4 million under the cap, and if we re-sign Love, we’ll be over the cap. Granted, we’ll make our free agency moves first, but even so, we need to be aware of the future.

The best amnesty option we have is to trade some of our role players for a second bad player on another team (which has more than one player they want to amnesty), plus someone good and cheap, and hopefully a first rounder or two. We could then amnesty the expensive albatross we receive, and keep whatever else we get.

by Balphagor on Nov 30, 2011 10:19 AM CST reply actions  

Many things wrong with this post

First, the Wolves aren’t $10 million under the cap, and Williams’ contract is already on the cap. Cap holds exist for unsigned players.

Second, they can’t trade for a player and then amnesty him. The system precludes that.

Finally, Milicic is not the 2nd best center they have ever had. He’s horrendous. One of the handful of worst players in the league.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Rasho>Roberts>Darko>Garrett>O Miller>Hollins>>>>>>Kandi

What a line of wretches (Rasho excluded, I guess). And I won’t rank Longley (or other Cs from the early years) because I never saw him play outside a Bulls uni.

Now, Good Darko is easily #1 on the list, but how often did he really ever show up last year? and Bad Darko is just so, so bad…

by deus04 on Nov 30, 2011 11:44 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Longley never played really well on the Wolves.

When he went to the Bulls (for Stacey freaking King?) I figured he’d torpedo the team, but he surprised me. He played his limited role well there.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Nov 30, 2011 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Along the topic of amnesty is cutting players

Some posters say that if you cut a player that frees up his salary from the cap. Is the correct? I thought his salary continued to count against the cap.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Nov 30, 2011 10:34 AM CST reply actions  

It does

The only way to get a guaranteed salary off the cap is by using the amnesty, which is one time only.

There is another provision called the stretch provision which allows you to cut a player and spread the remaining cap hit over more years (double the years remaining plus 1), but I’m not sure on all the details of that.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Doesn't Miller have a s 1m buyout?

Pretty sure his last year isn’t fully guaranteed. So you could amnesty Darko, buy out Miller, and then throw a toxic offer at Jordan or Gasol.

by deus04 on Nov 30, 2011 11:50 AM CST via mobile reply actions  

When to amnesty

Do you use the amnesty this year or later in the CBA?

Because it works with current contracts only, the sooner you use it, the more of a salary cap savings you have and the more of a buyout you have.

But, you may wait if you see no FA you want this year anyhow and the amnesty drops you below the minimum spend. The minimum I read for this year was $49 million. Wolves are at $48.3 w/o signing the rookies.

The number 2 pick I saw on RealGM is slated for $3.95 million — don’t know if that includes the extra 20% they allow you to go over. Say it doesn’t — $4.75.

Beasely has the max contract at $6.2 and you don’t amnesty him. Martell is highest of possible amnesty at $5.25. So, DWill’s deal alone with a Webster amnesty drops Wolves $.5 mil to $47.8.

Gotta believe Malcolm Lee might cost $1.2 and/or Wolves amnesty a player (if at all) less than Martell. So, Wolves appear in no trouble of amnestying themselves below the minimum so far they have to waste or throw extra money at a FA.

by ChicagoViking on Nov 30, 2011 12:34 PM CST reply actions  

I think their best opportunity is to use it on Darko this year

First off, Adelman’s been on the job for 2 months now. He’s watched tape and probably has a good idea of whether this guy is salvageable. If he is, it’s a good idea to keep him. If he isn’t, why hold on to his salary when, if they extend Love (not sure how likely this is), they won’t be under the cap for a while? I’m not suggesting they overpay anyone, but maybe that becomes useful in a trade or with a guy they’ve targeted as a breakout candidate in their system. In ‘99, the Kings paid Vlade $8.3 mil in his first year with the team, even though the guy wasn’t exactly a difference-maker in Charlotte and LA. Yet it made a ton of sense for them and ended up being worthwhile.

The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman

by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 30, 2011 1:46 PM CST reply actions  

Sadly

I’d say “Bad” Darko’s still probably our second best center…maybe third. (Nesterovic wasn’t ALL that bad, though he suddenly looked a lot better once he left Minnesota.) Apparently time has allowed people to forget Minnesota’s never really had any good center play. We treated Mark Blount as a savior for one season, is how desperate we’ve been for a good center. Don’t get me wrong, at best Darko is merely adequate, but after all the pathetic tall timber of the past, Darko looks pretty good comparatively. There are maybe ten good centers in the NBA, and we wouldn’t be picking any of them up for $4.8 million. When people say he’s one of the worst centers in the NBA, they surely aren’t counting, say, Pekovic, who was much worse. You want Theo Ratliff back? You want Hasheem Thabeet…you want to pay $6.2 million for a past-his-prime Jermaine O’Neal? No one makes fun of, say, Zaza Pechulia, who’s about the same level of player, and costs about the same, as Milicic. We are cursed by having a flawed, adequate starting center, which puts us ahead of a bunch of teams.

If we just start playing some of our overflow of centers, we’re just going to get those guys hurt playing out of position, as happened when we tried that with Al Jefferson. Milicic is at least of value to prevent crippling Kevin Love and Michael Beasley.

I checked. Miller does have a second year on his contract. Given that, he’s the best amnesty candidate. He’ll never play for us, and given the condition of his knees, it’d be pretty frightening if he did.

I missed that you couldn’t trade for a player and use the amnesty. Pity. Would’ve made for a more interesting off-season.

by Balphagor on Nov 30, 2011 2:21 PM CST reply actions  

This is a radical overvaluing of Milicic

Yes, Wolves centers have been bad. No question. Milicic actively contributes to losing in a way that few do. If I could turn Milicic into Pachulia, I’d do it without thinking twice. He’s a much better player. I’d rather play Pekovic, who might not be much better, but at least has the excuse that he’s still learning the NBA game. There’s really no positives in Milicic’s game.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Nov 30, 2011 3:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Interesting part of the new CBA:

According to Larry Coon, if a team waives a player, they can spread the cap hit on the remainder of the contract for 2 times the length of the contract plus one year. So, for example, if the Wolves waived Webster, they could stretch the $11 million left on the deal over 5 years instead of 2, which would save them close to $3 million in each year on the cap. I’d argue that if they really wanted to clear cap and make a competitive offer to Gasol/Jordan/Nene/Chandler, they amnesty one player and cut 2-3 of the others to get down to about $41 million.

The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman

by pagingstanleyroberts on Nov 30, 2011 10:23 PM CST reply actions  

Using the Amnesty on Webster

Would give us the most room for this year to then go after Brandon Roy.

by PhoenixWolf on Dec 1, 2011 10:12 PM CST reply actions  

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