Wolves prepared offer for Martin
by Winston Wolf on Dec 11, 2011 10:28 AM CST
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Looks like Kahn and Adelman were ready to make a play for Kevin Martin. Not really that shocking but I would be curious what we would have offered? From Bill Ingram via hoopsworld
Bill Ingram – 12/10/2011 11:00am EST
Two items of particular note outside of the fallout from the blown three-team deal involving Chris Paul:
First, if the complicated sign-and-trade that would land David West in Boston falls through, the Indiana Pacers are waiting with a sizable offer for West, who is now their primary free agency target.
Second, when the New Orleans Hornets were set to acquire Kevin Martin from the Houston Rockets, the Minnesota Timberwolves immediately prepared an offer for Martin. Now that Martin is no longer headed to the Hornets, don’t be surprised if the Timberwolves make an overture to Houston. Head coach Rick Adelman would love to have Martin back in his lineup.
http://www.hoopsworld.com/2011-nba-free-agency-diary/
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I was just over at The Dream Shake (Rockets SB Nation blog)
Those guys are pissed, as you might imagine. There is some difference of opinion, but the general sense is that Martin will have to go.
Opinions as to his value are varied. But some posters seem willing to take about anything, including Wes Johnson for him. I doubt Morey would do that.
The thing is this: what was Morey trying to accomplish? He wanted to turn his (near) stars into a (super) star (Gasol), then go get another force in Nene. Clearly he thought that was the best way forward for the Rockets.
Just because that didn’t work out, I can’t see him completely reversing course and being willing to turn one of his (near) stars into the Wolves’ (quasi) rotation guys.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 10:48 AM CST reply actions
I've got to say...
Kevin Martin does NOT help this team. We already have a few reincarnations of him on our team in Beas and AR. He is a scorer, and does absolutley nothing else. I know it would be nice to have a real 2-guard, but Martin is a ball stop, and isn’t going to help any of our weaknesses (ball movement and defense). I would rather have Wes, honestly.
To each his own
But, well, you’re wrong. Here’s the difference between Martin and the Wolves “reincarnations:” Martin is an unbelievably efficient scorer, those guys are not.
He absolutely would help this team. He’s immediately the 2nd best player on the Wolves, no matter who’s left after a trade. I have no idea why you would rather have Wes Johnson, who hasn’t shown the ability to do anything particularly well.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions
28 turning 29 in February
Derrick Williams was going to Bust...but then he was selected by the Timberwolves!
Unbelievably Efficient
You must have a very loose definition:
15.8 shots a game to score 23.5
43% shooting
He does have a good TS%, but that is mainly because of his his 3P%, and the fact he took almost 6 three point attempts a game.
Now, again, we can shoot 3’s, and we can score. Martin helps our scoring, I’m not saying he won’t, but that isn’t where we need help, and even moreso, he hinders what we are poor at. He will most certainly make our defense worse than it is, and make our ball stop more than it did last year. I just don’t see him fitting in on this team.
Wanting Martin is a classic case of taking a player who is derisable, and not considering how he will fit into our team. His ability to score would only slightly help our overall output, and even if he does contribute to more wins, he isn’t a player that we want to build aroind. Why bother?
Of course Martin fits in our team.
But if you swap out Wes’ minutes for Martin, it’s a net positive. Wes is better defensively, but Martin is so, so much better offensively.
Frankly I doubt Johnson is better defensively
but even conceding the point, Bigtee is wrong.
Martin is unbelieveably efficient. He’s 5th among active players in TS%. The only other perimeter guys in the top 10 are Nash and Ginobili.
He’s also wrong about the Wolves ability to score. I mean, yeah, the score points, but that’s due to pace. It was a terrible offense. To borrow from Simitar:
OffEff: 24
TS%: 25
FG%: 27
Ast%: 28
Ast Rate: 29
TO Rate: 29
TOs: 30
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Johnson's defensive upside is so much higher than Martin's
How many rookies play good NBA defense?
Johnson absolutely has the tools to put together an excellent defensive career if he’s coached properly
Johnson has the tools to be a good defender?
Sure, he’s athletic and long, but there’s a ton of guys with those same qualifications that AREN’T good defenders. What we do know is that in college he played in that funky Syracuse zone and he has yet to prove he WILL BE a good defender. Could he be? Anything is possible, but he certainly hasn’t shown enough to make many think it’s an eventuality.
Thus why I used the phrase "defensive upside"
Name me a rookie that legitimately played excellent defense as a rookie last year?
Rookie’s generally struggle with defense, especially so when they are coached poorly.
You seem to be really offended at someone challenging Kevin Martin’s worth?
I’ve repeatedly said if you can get him get him, for the record.
However the jack pot imo would be to get him and keep Wes…not sure if that would be possible. Rockets would have to be very interested in Beasley
I can't think of a lot of rookies that have played great defense.
However, he wasn’t a great man defender in college, so I’m not sure why you think that these tools will suddenly blossom in the pros.
I don't know how much basketball you have played in your life
But the long athletic types legitimately have it easier.
I believe defense is 70 percent work ethic, but 30 percent is still pure ability….If Johnson works his butt off he will have an advantage over other players for best defensive player
Ah, the old "how much basketball have you played" chestnut.
That’s always a nice throw-in. Unfortunately, it still really doesn’t answer the question. By your own admission only 30% of defense is athletic ability, yet you seem to be stuck on Johnson’s “defensive potential” even though he has yet to consistently live up to that potential in college or in his very short NBA career. So what about Johnson have you seen that makes you think he’ll develop into a good defender?
Well I don't throw that card out to be condescending
I’m legitimately curious.
I think people mock David Kahn for his long athletic take, but literally if you’re a guy like me who is about 6’2-6’3, 200 pretty solid athleticism but nothing special and I’m going up against a guy who is 6’4 215 with great athleticism….it doesn’t matter how hard I work the guy is going to play better defense at 70 percent than I will at 100. I would imagine that translates to the NBA pretty consistently
Now, if he doesn’t try at all…that’s totally different. Which I think has been the bigger issue with Kahn’s philosophy than the actual process of acquiring long athletic players. If Adleman can get them to buy into playing defense, I believe we could actually become very good defensively with guys like Randolph, Tolliver, and Johnson.
Johnson flashed some of that defensive potential last year with some big steals and blocks…I’m personally excited to see what he’s got.
His did slightly outpace the rest of the Wolves' wing options in both steals and blocks.
(Adjusted for time, naturally.) Granted, outdefending Michael Beasley isn’t that high a bar.
"Opinion ...a confession."
One fortunate thing for Wes is that
he only played in that zone for one season. Typically it is an issue for Syracuse players but no so much with Wes.
It may seem insensitive but I'm happy to hear of Rubio's passing.
by Tangerine dream on Dec 12, 2011 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
From 82 games
Player 48 min PER @SG
Wes=9.6
Martin=22.2
Opponent Counterpart 48 min PER @SG
Wes=14.3
Martin=12.8
Wes was out scored by his opponent by 6.2pt/48min
Martin out scored his opponent by 14.4pt/48min
Martin would be an offensive and defensive improvement over Wes unless Wes improves substantially this season.
by Waucckhewww on Dec 11, 2011 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
defensive metrics suck
This isn’t a new concept. They are more than worthless because defense needs to be taken in context not as some sort of aggregated efficiency rating. Dude played Zone at Cuse before his rookie year in the NBA with a shitty coach.
Compare that with Martin’s what year in the league with Adelman…not really apples to apples there.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 12, 2011 6:52 AM CST up reply actions
Why not?
It measures how the opposing SG performs while the player is on the court. Now, sometimes, 82games messes up (they have Tolliver at SF and Beasley at PF whenever they were both on the court), but odds are they got this one right.
No matter how people want to paint it, Martin’s opponents were worse than Wes’ when they were on the court.
but it doesn't tell you if he got burned because
he switched when he was supposed to and “his man” didn’t get covered by the teammate who was supposed to switch to cover him. Defense is about more than what the opposing player does, but what the team does. lineup +/- means a lot more.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 12, 2011 7:57 AM CST up reply actions
Eh, so it's not perfect
At least its something and, really, Wes wasn’t all that impressive defensively with the ol’ eye test. I didn’t watch Martin enough to get a proper opinion, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he was better.
making conclusions off of data that you know is suspect is the problem
I would hazard a guess that Wes’s defense is a lot better this year than last and better than KMart’s is this year. Wes was practicing with a lot of NBA talent in the offseason and with Adelman as his coach I expect a pretty solid improvement.
That being said, when people talk about a player’s defensive abilities they commonly overlook how important the team is as a whole to that equation. One player trying too hard when the other’s aren’t give you Corey Brewer…who’s defensive metrics then stunk because of it. Ignore the metric and start asking yourself if they can defend a ball handler, a passing lane, close out on a shooter, rotate for help, etc. usually you find that they can do some of this but suck at others. I think Wes’s problem was recognition and for a rookie that isn’t suprising.
If by mid-year he still can’t rotate and fight through a screen, I don’t think you will see him in the rotation anymore because Adelman won’t tolerate it.
Something isn’t always better than nothing. Sometimes it’s still just crap. Better to have nothing than something that doesn’t do much but smells to high heaven.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 12, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
and yet
Wes was clearly our best perimeter defender last year. Playing next to Flynn and Beasley last year, what do you expect a guy to do?
Martin, on the other hand, played next to a guy DX describes thusly:
A staunch defensive point guard who is limited by his size, but makes up for that with pure grit and determination. Displays very good lateral explosiveness, gets down in a decent stance, and uses his strength relatively well on the pick and roll.
And the other guy he played with? Shane Battier.
Context makes a huge difference here.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Dec 12, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
there are way too many assumptions in a defensive metric
that commonly fail to hold up under most circumstances. Defense is best gauged by watching in person.
Why rely on 82Games to accurately describe whether Beasley is playing SF or PF? Just watch him. We all know what circumstances he is good and bad at rather quickly by just watching. Team defense is more about putting complementary parts out on the court together to make the opponent have to work harder to score. How does 82games adjust for which opponent SGs you guard? Has someone guarded Kobe 4 times versus none while the other guy guarded Corey Brewer? These things matter.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 12, 2011 8:05 AM CST up reply actions
By no means was did I intend to present that as an end all
I believe it would seem appropriate to assume that Martin has at least comparable defense to Wes, as he did not really show proficiency on either end of the court. Yes I cannot prove through a couple stats that he is better, but there seems to be at the very least some reason to believe that Matin would not be a defensive downgrade. Offensively their is a clear winner however.
Actually by rereading my post I guess I did
I retract my previous conclusion. And submit this as my new one.
That’s the thing that gets repeated but is totally false. We can’t score, at least not efficiently. Per 100 possessions were are one of the worst offenses in the league. With Martin, we’d have an extremely efficient offensive focal point and someone who lives at the line, traits that we aren’t exactly flush with on our roster.
Right on the money
Put it this way to anybody who thinks The Wolves are a good scoring team. If your team defense is as bad as The Wolves’ is, your oppenent isn’t going to require much time to put the ball in the basket, so Minnesota probably got the ball back faster than any other NBA team and had more scoring opportunities than most.
That doesn’t mean we’re a good offensive basketball team.
by foobee on Dec 11, 2011 7:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Last year doesn't matter as much
let’s see what Rubio and Adelman can do first. Don’t rush Martin seems like fools gold to me
by tallandthicks on Dec 11, 2011 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
Let's see what Adelman can do?
Apparently, he’s the one that really wants Martin. It looks like he wants to see what he can do with a legitimate SG on the team. Since he’s widely been known to be savvy about such things, I’d trust him to make the best decision for who he thinks would fit well on the roster.
yeah he likes his old players what coach doesn't
hell see if he wants Bonzi Wells too
by tallandthicks on Dec 11, 2011 7:30 PM CST up reply actions
This argument doesn't make much sense...
How would EIM’s definition of efficiency be “loose.” If we played basketball, and you went 5 of 10 and only took 2 pointers, and I went 4 of 10 and only took 3 pointers. You would have a better FG% but I would score more points than you. True Shooting Percentage actually accounts for this, which makes it anything but “loose.”
The artist formally known as Blakeley
There you go again
Trying to make a case to get back to the NBA. I don’t care how many threes you shoot, you aren’t welcome back!
You can't dust for vomit.
Ha-
I had to do a double-take when I saw that moniker. Shane Heal was right up there with “Jack-em-up” Troy Hudson in my most-frustrating TWolves players list. Then again, I liked Big Stan Roberts before he coked out of the league.
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 12, 2011 12:36 AM CST up reply actions
15.8 shots to score 23.5 points
is equal to 1.487 points per shot, which is incredibly good efficiency.
To compare:
Lebron: 1.421 PPS (points per shot)
Durant: 1.405 PPS
Dwight: 1.708 PPS
Kobe: 1.267 PPS
Wade: 1.402 PPS
Love: 1.438 PPS
Beasley: 1.124 PPS
Wes: 1.039 PPS
The only one on that list better than Martin is also the best, and most efficient big man in the game.
by AQuintus on Dec 11, 2011 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah but that's becuase he shoots a lot of three pointers!
Where’s the sarcasm button again?
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Dec 12, 2011 12:25 AM CST up reply actions
lol
I’m sorry I wanted to give reasons why I think your opinion is wrong.. but well.. I am lost for words. I have no idea why you wouldn’t want K.Martin, like Eric said he is immediately the 2nd best player on our team and immediately the best scorer on our team. And finally a scorer who is efficient in his scoring, who doesn’t need 40 shots for 40 points. He’d answer my only question I had left for us going into this season.
Rubio.. Martin.. Williams.. Beasley(unless traded).. then Love.
Rubio.. Martin.. Williams.. Beasley(unless traded).. then Love.Talk about an offensive punch in the face to anyone who plays us.
Lol
Again, adding players who have basketball skills doesn’t necessarly translate to a better team. He gives you nothing but scoring, and he doesn’t do it in a fashion that is condusive to anyone else’s game.
Forget Rubio, Martin plays as a defacto PG once the ball crosses halfcourt. It just makes not sense to add another redundant skillset to our team (scoring) while not doing anything to help our multitude of other weaknesses.
How are perimeter scoring, offensive efficiency and Mass FT attempts redundant on The Wolves?
I need more explanation how those talent are redundant… in what way are The Minnesota Timberwolves flush in those areas? Please explain.
No, that's not true.
Martin does not play as a de facto PG once the ball crosses halfcourt. He didn’t in Houston, and he wouldn’t here.
I'm not saying he would here
I’m saying his game is designed to have the ball in his hands. Rubio would pass him the ball on the wing, and the rest of the team would watch.
Must like Beas did last year.
That shouldn’t be our goal this year. With Rubio amd Love and the athletes we have, we should be looking to mesh ourselves into quick passing team, not a ‘dribble down the clock and clear our’ team.
A quick passing team?
You mean like the Princeton offense that Adelman likes to run. Oh, and Adelman seems to really want Martin on the team. I guess he thinks Martin would be effective running an offense he’s run before. Given his track record, I think I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.
You forget to note that
That his best shot is the transition three, where he shoots around fifty percent. I don’t know a bout you, but I think a guy who gets to the line a bunch and hits transition threes more than half of the time would be great for this particular team’s offense.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
lol
Dude, do you know this team? Scoring is our issue, scoring efficiently is about as big of an issue as our defense is.
I like how you sidestep everyones’ question to explain yourself after you say such blatantly false statements.
To add another thing he helps us in… weren’t we last in FTA last year? I’m not sure if thats accurate or not, but if we weren’t we were bottom barrel. We’d finally have a slasher that gets to the hoop, gets us and 1 opportunities and gets us that guy that can create his shot at end of game situations that make the good teams great.
Actually, the Wolves were only barely below average in FTA last year
which is unusual for them. But part of that is pace. They had more possessions than anyone else, so that number looks better than it is.
Also, they conceded more FTAs than anyone in the league. Again, pace was part of that, along with their atrocious defense.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 8:00 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, what this reads like to me is an echo of the Paul-to-Lakers fallout.
Instead of sending Martin to the Hornets, Houston would be able to deal some young talent from us their way – thus addressing the supposed concern from the league that there wasn’t young talent in the package coming to N’Awlins.
Whether it makes sense as a separate, discrete transaction between Morey and Kahn is another matter.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Seems most likely that NOLA is gonna deal Paul directly to LAC
Then we’d have to arrange a two-team deal of our own to get K.Martin.
I am all for getting Martin, I will sign off on trading anyone without the last name Love/Williams/Rubio for him
BUT
Is it cautionary enough that the single most sabermetric reliant team in the entire NBA is willing to take “almost anything” for him?
I like the player. I think he’s a good NBA (which we need more of) I do think he’s at best a no. 4 option on a title team. I get that we are so far away from that point, but if you don’t prepare like a champion you’ll never get there. All that saying he’s an upgrade no matter how you slice it and he’s an upgrade at a position we are desperate for.
Offensively he’d look good with Rubio too.
Get him if you can, just to make it clear
Number 4?
You honestly think that a player who has shown that he can INCREDIBLY efficient being the primary scoring threat on a mediocre team could only be AT BEST a fourth option on a contender. Please, explain your reasons, because that seems like a statement that is refuted by almost any advanced stat.
Well he's been to the playoffs ONCE.
and he’s consistently been the best or second best player on those teams…so he clearly isn’t a top 2 player on a championship team.
I guess I can’t really prove he couldn’t be a 3, but we have his whole career to look at for evidence against the fact that he can’t be a 1-2.
That's your proof?
So, you’re not taking into account the other players around him? He’s a very efficient scorer that has played on mediocre teams. Look at the roster of his squads and tell me how he could have done much more to bring them a title? He is what he is, a very good offensive weapon. This team could certainly use more of those.
If the roster's improve he won't be the best or second best player on a team though
I was thinking of a team Kevin Martin could be on, where he’d be the go-to scorer and they win a title….
I mean you’d need a Rondo to play point and a Nene to play center and in that scenario Kevin Martin isn’t the 1st or 2nd best player on the team
I'm not suggesting that he would be the second best player on a championship team.
However, I am suggesting that if Rubio evolves into a good PG and Derrick Williams can become a legitimate SF, Martin could help lead our team to the postseason. A championship? I’ll worry about that once we make it to the playoffs.
In that scenario though Martin is the 4th best player
I completely agree with the scenario you are drawing up here, but an elite point guard and having a Williams turn into the the player he can turn into….Martin is the 4th best player.
Which is great, man. I’ll take it any day haha
Says who?
Martin could be the second or third best player depending on how the other players mentioned evolve. For instance, Rubio could become a good PG but not be better than Martin. The same could be said with Williams. Statistically, Martin isn’t an atrocious defender and he’s an AWESOME offensive player. He could still be better than Rubio and Williams and we could have a playoff caliber team.
First second third best who cares?
More good players has to be better.
We're more arguing semantics
I’m personally on board with getting Martin, I’m just trying to level expectations. I don’t believe he is the answer…but is he a piece? yes
Well I really disagree with the Williams take
My belief with Williams is that he’s either going to be unbelievable or completely bomb out. He’s good at one thing: scoring and scoring efficiently, if that doesn’t translate I have a tough time seeing him get on the court, and if it does translate we could have a top 10 player on our hands. I’ve been ripped for that opinion, but really what do people think is the middle ground? These scorers are so hit or miss because of the fact that the only thing they were good at and are suppsoed to be at is scoring.
The Rubio thing….eh….I guess if you’re just looking for points Rubio will never be better than Martin….but I mean I’d never ever in my life trade Jason Kidd (even right now) for K-Mart. Outside of a go-to, carry the team on your back scorer there is nothing more valuable in my opinion than a point guard that knows how to slow down the team and get everyone set up to score.
Which was my point with Rondo….the kind of team it would take to have Martin be the go-to scorer on would require a very specific group of players….like Rondo and Nene who I think are both much better basketball players anyway than Martin, even if they don’t score as much
Think black and white much?
So Williams will either be AWESOM or TERRIBLE? There’s no way you could conceive he could fall in the middle? You asked what people think could be a middle ground. How about instead of incredibly efficient he is moderately efficient and still productive. Are you honestly trying to tell me that it has to be all or nothing?
Well what does that look like though?
Here is my break down of why I just don’t think it’s possible:
What is the one thing all stat geeks have been drilling in our heads about Derrick Williams? The only thing he’s good at is scoring and scoring efficiently….BUT efficient scoring is something that doesn’t necessarily translate from college to pro’s…you can’t predict it. BUT what you can predict, things like rebounds and blocks etc…he’s not very good at.
I have been a very big proponent of DThrill, because at some point I feel like you just need to gamble on a guy and hope he can score a butt load of points in the NBA….If he busts he busts.
But if he can only score moderately efficiently…..why would he play? Why wouldn’t we play a guy like Tolliver or Johnson who can also score moderately efficiently (I’m projecting Johnson out about a year down the road) yet they also pass, rebound and play good defense?
Wouldn’t he just fall through the cracks in favor of other players that also can score kinda well yet do other things better than Williams?
That’s why I believe he’s all or nothing. Either he is an elite scorer….or someone else can score about as good as he can and do everything else better.
Corey Maggette is the one player I can think of that isn’t very good at anything but scoring moderately efficiently….I just don’t think that kinda player really has much of a place in the NBA for the reasons I listed above.
Even a guy like Stephen Jackson at times in his career has been a pretty good defensive player
Michael Beasley.
He could end up like Beasley. Is Beasley a bad player? No. He is what he is, a volume scorer with a mediocre level of efficiency. I guess you could call him a bust if you’re expecting a superstar, but if he turned out to be slightly better than Beasley he’ll be an above average player.
If Williams peaks out as Bealsey
I would not expect us to win a championship with him in our starting lineup..
Which negates your point about Martin being a 2 on a title team
Go to scorers imo are like finding a QB
You don’t see too many average QB’s and you don’t see too many average go-to scorers.
The drop off from the Jay Cutler, Matt Ryan, Matt Schaub’s too the Rex Grossman, Matt Hassleback group is pretty steep.
It’s the toughest position in their respective sports to fill and because of that, players are generally “it” or they aren’t…not a whole lot of inbetween
Cutler?
Cutler isn’t a great QB. He’s a streaky QB that is mostly good and sometimes very bad. On the whole, he’s pretty good, not great. The same could happen with Williams.
Cutler is pretty dang good.
He’s in the “once you have a guy like this you don’t trade him” category.
He’s not Rodgers…but jeeze there are 15 teams in the NFL that wish they had him
Correct, Cutler is pretty good!
Thanks for agreeing with me, because I said the same thing. However, you apparently agree that he’s not great. When you think great, you think Rodgers, Brady, Peyton Manning, and Brees (most would have included Rivers in that list prior to this season). The you have the second tier, which includes Cutler. Again, not great but good. The same thing could happen with Williams.
2nd tier NBA stars
Deron Williams
Bosh
Westbrook
Anthony
Stoudimire
Nash
Cause the first tier is obviously
Lebron
Durant
Nowitzski
Wade
Bryant
Howard
and the first tier might end there
I will consider DThrill a rousing success if he is the NBA’s version of Jay Cutler. I would not consider the NBA equivalent of Cutler to be “mediocre efficiency scorer who isn’t great at anything else.”though. Cutler has been playing with one of the worst offensive line/receiving corp combos in the NFL and a O-Coordinator that hangs him out to dry almost every play. I don’t believe Cutler would be putting up Rodgers numbers in G.B. or N.O. however I would be very interested to see how good Cutler would be on well coached offensive teams with good players
Not necessarily my point
Perhaps I got sidetracked by your evaluation of Cutler, but my point is Williams could be very useful if he’s just good. To continue with the football analogy, Matt Hasselbeck is a GOOD quarterback. Aside from one year, he’s never been great, but he’s been above average and a solid addition to the Seahawks and Titans. He even led a team to the Super Bowl. I would want Williams to be awesome, but if he turned out to be Hasselbeck he would help our team and be a good player.
Matt Hasslebeck, DThrill and Magette
I will concede this too you, not because I think you’re right in the big picture, but because you are right it is possible for him to be an average and effective scorer. However, I still just think the likelihood of him either being great or bad is better than average and I’ll use Matt H to continue my point
There aren’t a ton of average QBs in the Nfl, and there aren’t a ton of average go-to scorers in the NBA, however there are the Hassleback and Maggette exceptions which I guess it is possible Williams falls into this category. Maggette is basically only good at driving and getting to the free throw line, sometimes he can shoot. The guy can score 20 points faster and quieter than any player in the NBA and does it with fairly solid efficiency (cause he gets too the line so much)
In my opinion from how I have observed the NBA over the past ten years, it just does not seem like there are a large group of players that are only good at moderate efficiency scoring and my guess is that if they aren’t overly good at anything else they have a tough time getting on the floor.
Now just take that take 1st and respond to it. Do you believe that to be true or not? Am I missing a ton of moderate efficiency scorers that aren’t good at anything else?
Where I get the notion that Williams will either boom or bust is that if he’s going to take playing time away from a Beasley, Johnson, Randolph, or someone else….he’s probably going to have to be insanely productive and efficient. Or do you think he can out play those three (Or someone else even) with just moderate efficiency and nothing else? Cause Beasley already scores with an average efficiency rate (he was like a 15 PER player last year I believe) and does nothing else well really.
This is my opinion, I absolutely am not trying to make this a fact.
I guess the David West thing side tracked me, cause while West is currently a fairly solid NBA player. I mean it took the guy 3 years and playing with one of the best PGs in the NBA to get there. If he had started out on the Raptors would he have even gotten to that point? Would he have gotten on the court with a Chris Bosh? IDK, it’s probably too much of a hypothetical to answer, but it’s not like Derrick Williams is currently 2008 Daivd West (which…if he is that good already we probably have a star in the making anyways)
But if the West comp fits it took West a few years to adjust his game tot he NBA, does Williams have that much time? Idk, I would bet if he’s not a stud we’d probably look to move him to get a real 2/3 combo..assuming the David West comp fits….which I don’t think it ultimately will, but we’ll roll with it for now.
And maybe I’m wrong, that’s always an option
This is my bad.
We’re arguing over how good players will be that we both want on our team.
This is ultimately ridiculous, we both WANT KMart on this team. Even though at best I think he’s a 3-4 option on a title team. ABSOLUTELY if you can upgrade from Beasley to Martin or Johnson to Martin (I’d really prefer to keep Johnson and get Martin, but if it takes Johnson to keep Williams/Rubio/Love I think u do it)
And we both think Williams will be good too. Even though I believe it is more likely he will suck than be average I in all honesty couldn’t be happier that we have Williams and I think he’ll be pretty exceptional.
My bad, let’s just enjoy this team, pray we get Martin and watch Williams ball.
No middle ground?
What if Williams turns out to be a guy who can put up an efficient 18-19 points per game based largely off dishes from Rubio and grab 6-8 rebounds?
I think it’s more likely he ends up a good-but-not-great player like David West than either of the extremes you say he can only end up on.
He'd take off his warm-ups and walk there.
But seriously, what is going on here? How is that question at all relevant? We’re talking about Derrick Williams as a player and what kind of level he’s likely to end up as. I made the prediction he ends up about as good as a David West type.
I really can’t get why you’d respond with that. First of all, David West would start on the Wolves and play heavy minutes next to Love under a smart coach. Second of all, David West is good enough to get on the court for a lot of teams. He’s a good NBA starter, but he’s not a superstar or top 10 player. The point is I could easily see Williams ending up that type of player. It doesn’t have anything to do with his fit on a specific Timberwolves team.
by LoveTo on Dec 12, 2011 12:09 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Williams not being a star will mean he won't be a Wolf for long
If he is a David West he will probably have trouble getting on the court cause it will be too similar to Love..which will mean for us he will be a bomb…
Which sticks with my “he’s either going to be a stud or he’s gonna be a bust for us” theory.
I just don’t see where DW finds a middle ground as a Wolf.
And in general, but mainly as a wolf.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with that either. I’m glad we have him and I’m excited to play DW roulette.
It's funny how he chooses the Pacers though
….probably because on the Celtics he’d come off the bench. I would imagine that’s the reason, he can start for a mediocre team (cause he’s a mediocre player who probably has been made better by years of playing with one of the best PG in the NBA), or come off the bench for a title team.
How is drafting a bench player at no.2 a success?
Um, I assume he chose the Pacers because they offered him
the most money. You are vastly underselling West to make some kind of point, but if Williams winds up as good as West, that’s a positive result.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 12, 2011 8:09 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
How is drafting a bench player at no.2 a success?
Two things…
1) It really depends on the type of bench player you’re talking about. Manu Ginoboli came off the bench for years. I’d be thrilled if he turned out to be that good.
2) If he turns out to be slightly more efficient than Beasley, then they’ll likely let Beasley walk and keep Williams, thus making him a starter and not a bench player. So drafting “good” SF with the number two pick might not be a rousing success, but also not an abject failure.
So you've now
created out of nothing but your own dialogue with yourself the idea that David West is a bench player, and then posed that argument to someone else like it’s a legitimate question they have to respond to.
Completely illogical
If he is only good at one thing he is not going to be a top 10 player. You are bagging on Martin for only being an efficient scorer, but somehow Williams will be so far beyond him in efficient scoring that he goes from the 4th best player on a quality team to top 10 in the league.
by dropstep on Dec 12, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
he’s at best a no. 4 option on a title team
These distinctions, made popular by the blowhards at ESPN, are so subjective and relative that they are entirely meaningless.
If Keven Martin is better than the pieces you’re trading for him, then you do it. Is Pek a “4th best option?” What about Ridnour? Wes?
I don't disagree a lick with what you are saying
KMart is still at best a no. 4 option on a title team.
False.
2011: Mavericks
1: Dirk
2: Jason Terry
3: Shawn Marion/JJ Barea?
4: Kidd? Peja?
2010: Lakers
1: Kobe
2: Pau
3: Bynum
4: Odom
2009: Lakers
1: Kobe
2: Pau
3: Bynum
4: Odom
2008: Celtics
1: Pierce
2: Allen?
3: Garnett?
4: Rondo?
2007: Spurs
1: Duncan
2: Parker
3: Manu
4: ???? Robert Horry? Brent Barry?
2006: Pre-Superfriends Heat
1: Wade
2: Shaq
3: White Chocolate
4: Payton?
2005: Spurs
1: Duncan
2: Manu
3: Parker
4: Robert Horry
So essentially, all Kevin Martin has to do to be more than a “4th option on a championship team” is to be better than, or equal to: Jason Terry, Shawn Marion, JJ Barea, Old Jason Kidd, Andrew Bynum/Lamar Odom, one of Ray Allen/Garnett/Rondo, Manu G, T Parker, Robert Horry, Brent Barry, Jason Williams, or Old Gary Payton…
What in the numbers (or in the famous “I actually watch the games!” line of reasoning) suggests that he is not better than the vast majority of these players?
If you actually watch basketball
then you would never ever ever say that Martin is better than JKIdd.
JKidd does not show up in the glitzy stat sheet but the guy slows the game down when it starts running away from the Mavs and he sets everyone up perfect. He’s probably the best pure point guard of the past 15 years. I would take a 38 year old Kidd over Martin any day of the week.
Martin isn’t better than any of those Lakers or Celtics. Again with Rondo, he’s not a stat sheet guy but he’s so damn good at non-stat sheet things. If you do claim to watch basketball I can’t believe you would go with a Martin over Rondo.
The Spurs one…sure I’ll give you that. Assuming that Popovich would A) Play him and B) He wouldn’t throw off the flow of those teams
Same with the Heat…. except their 1-4 best players went like this: 1.) Wade, 2.) Wade, 3.) Wade, 4.) Wade.
But yes. He technically would have been a top 4 player on that assuming again he would have played and by him playing he wouldn’t have screwed up what made that team win (like Wade having the most nuts post-season run in the past 10 years)
It's weird how people post on NBA message boards when they don't watch basketball.
by LoveTo on Dec 12, 2011 8:28 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
If you actually posted on NBA message boards
Then you would never ever say that it’s weird when that happens.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
You gotta pay the troll toll
if you want that boy’s soul.
by BeasleBong on Dec 12, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Didn't see that coming.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 13, 2011 1:04 AM CST up reply actions
Poor Charlie.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 13, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
Dangit, I don't want to but I have to...
…I’m not fishing for a response, but I think the jist of it is that you are putting a lot of effort into convincing someone that K-Mart is not a good basketball player when all metrics point to him being a very good basketball player. PER, winshares, +/-, everything. But for some reason he fails an arbitrary judgement of yours and you won’t give it up.
by bustaone on Dec 12, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Our offense isn't the problem. We need some defense. And Martin doesn't
bring that to the table.
But you know who does? My guy Jamal Crawford.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Not really, he doesn't
And the offense is a problem. I’m not a fan of Crawford. It’s very possible that he has entered the real decline phase of his career.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
Crawford only allowed 41.2% fg last season. Not too shabby.
He was a key part of the defense for Atlanta in the playoffs against Orlando. I’m not saying he’s Ron Artest but he’s a much better defender than Martin. I mean, if we had to pay him Caron Butler money, then yeah, I’m not a fan. But if we could get him for $4-5 mil per season, that’s a bargain on a guy who can score and defend.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Crawford - I may vomit if that happens.
Total chucker. Do you want to play Beasley and Crawford together? Holy crap…
Shot 4 times less per-36 than Martin and the percentages were not far off
43% for Martin, 42% for Crawford. Crawford is a better passer (3.8 to 2.7 assists per-36 in favor of Crawford, while averaging about the same TO per-36). Martin does get to the line more often, but if Crawford is a chucker, then Martin is certainly one, too.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Scoring a lot of points efficiently does not = chucker.
Scoring a lot of points inefficiently makes you a chucker.
I don’t think I’ve ever heard Martin referred to as a chucker. Second most points/40 min to Kobe Bryant last year.
I don't think either player is a chucker. You used that word to
describe Crawford. And since, other than at the free throw line, Martin was not significantly more efficient than Crawford, the word shouldn’t apply to either one.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Last year:
Martin: .601 TS%, .506 eFG%, 5.7 3PTA at 38%, 8.4 FTAs
Craw: .545 TS%, .489 eFG%, 4.6 3PTA at 34%, 3.4 FTAs
That's because getting to the line is one of the best abilities to have.
Its super high percentage points, and it damages the other team.
It makes Martin SO much more valuable than Crawford.
Dwight Howard is a much more inefficient shooter than Beasley
If you compare everything aside from shots around the basket. You can’t just ignore the most important parts of certain players’ offensive games when comparing them. Kevin Durant is just another good offensive player if you ignore his contribution at the line.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
But getting to the line is a huge part of the equation.
It cannot just be dismissed as, “other than at the free throw line.” That’s an enormous part of it.
I guess I think of a "chucker" as someone who shoots a lot from
the floor and doesn’t make a lot of shots. I never thought of free throw attempts as playing into that moniker. Maybe you do.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
I look at a chucker as a guy who gets his points inefficiently. That's Crawford.
Again, that’s not debilitating if a roster only has one of those, but we already have Beasley.
But there is a big efficiency difference between them
Martin has scored 1.49 points for every FG he’s attempted for his career; he hit that number on the nose last season.
Crawford has scored 1.17 points for every FG he’s attempted; he was as 1.23 last year.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
That and Martin is a better 3 point shooter
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
So this argument may work for the "chucker" label
but it’s completely invalid in terms of who is the better player.
People can define anything however they want,
but if you don’t go with the generally accepted definition, then conversation will be impossible.
All this talk of "chuckers"
has me thinking “Puh-puh-puh-POWer 92 . . . errrradio!”
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
Haven't thought about
the Chucker in a while.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 11, 2011 5:55 PM CST up reply actions
The biggest statistical difference between them
is that Martin gets to the line more than twice as often as Crawford.
Over their careers...
Martin also averages fewer shots per game, while scoring more. Martin’s PER is in the 21-22 range and Crawford sits around 14.
I don’t think volume scorers are necessarily bad, but you can’t have two of them who both get big minutes. In other words, playing both Crawford and Bbeasley about 30 mpg each would be awful basketball.
If Martin weren’t possible and you get Crawford in a sign-and-trade that sends Beasley out, then I’d be OK with it. Otherwise, hell no.
That said,
Ideally, you can send Beasley out as part as the Martin deal. Then you don’t have any volume checkers!
by foobee on Dec 11, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Would Beasley
& Ridnour be sufficient for Martin, as long as we actually sign Barea?
Gotta like that up grade, Martin’s shooting & ability to get to the free throw line, decent D at SG, opening minutes for Wesley at SF (which improves D there), and replacing Ridnours random three jacks with Barea’s efficient (and frickin’ awesome to watch) offense.
by Michael C. Boosalis II on Dec 12, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
I wasn't focusing on career numbers, but since you brought it up
they have almost exactly the same number of shots per 36 minutes and their career PERs are 18.9 and 15.3 (Martin then Crawford). I’d be more worried about Crawford being washed up than I would be about what he brings to the table at his career numbers. Beasley isn’t someone I plan around one way or another.
Crawford's only 30. There are productive players who are 30 years old
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Dropoff + age is a bigger concern than age alone,
but looking across years, 2009-10 seems to be the outlier. If he can keep producing last year’s numbers, he’d be OK.
Over their careers, perhaps, but we're not talking about 24-year-old
Jamal Crawford. We’re talking who they are now, and looking at last year, Crawford is the type of player that I think would be helpful here. He obviously doesn’t mind coming off of the bench. He can score when needed, and although his reputation is that of a poor defender, he was effective at it last year. Some of that was Woodson’s defensive system, but I think Adelman could get that out of him, too.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Does he mind coming off the bench here?
My take on Jamal is simply that he’s likely to be the wrong kind of vet for our roster. He did play this 6th man scoring role in Atlanta, but isn’t he pretty likely to regard himself as The Man if he signs here – for bigger money, too, which would be awfully likely if he did come to Minnesota?
You’re right, though, defensively he’d be preferable to Martin. I wonder how close the money would be.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Neither Crawford or Martin are very good defensively.
For some reason, I think of Mike James when it comes to the idea of bringing in Jamal Crawford. I like the way you put it, ferel – “the wrong kind of vet.”
My lasting picture of him was maybe set too soon, back when he was with Chicago.
Their roster was in its blighted phase, and Crawford as the PG took his own shot in painful ways.
"Opinion ...a confession."
That's a good way of putting it.
He’s pretty damn good at making difficult shots, so he can serve a purpose for teams that want some possessions spent resting for defense while the chucker tries to score.
But that isn’t Rick Adelman, I don’t think.
They can't get him for that price
And he’s too inefficient offensively. He’s the shooting guard version of Beasley, really. His defensive rating has consistently been mediocre; pretty much the same as Martin’s.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
Now that I know you aren't being sarcastic
Martin allowed a lower opponent PER to shooting guards than Crawford. They’re both pretty bad defensive players, and Martin is just a whole lot better on offense.
And offensive rebounding is the only thing that wasn’t a problem for the Wolves last year. I want them to get good at something. I think getting Kevin Martin would be a giant step toward being good at one half of basketball (offense, obviously). And that would be a huge huge step better than what we’ve had since KG left.
Our offense was horrible.
Masked only by a blistering pace.
OffEff: 24
TS%: 25
FG%: 27
Ast%: 28
Ast Rate: 29
TO Rate: 29
TOs: 30
% of shots at the rim: 27
That's crazy bad.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 11, 2011 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
Martin would be a great addition
He solves 2 huge problems. First he can create his own offense efficiently. No one else on the roster can currently do this. Kevin Love scores efficiently but generally works off others. Second, he is a living breathing Shooting Guard. Yes he doesn’t play defense but neither do any of the other Shooting Guards we’ve trotted out for the last half decade.
Tell Houston any two of Wes Johnson, Michael Beasley, Anthony Randolph, Nikola Pekovic, plus Utah’s pick or that pick we acquired from Houston in the Brad Miller-Jonny Flynn trade. I don’t think this is a slam dunk by any means, but it’s the best I’d offer. This offer seemed like it had a much better chance of success to New Orleans who is going for a full rebuild than to Houston who seems to be trying to contend immediately. Maybe Orlando will want this package instead of Martin in a Three Way trade between Orlando-LAL-Houston including Dwight Howard and Pau Gasol.
Derrick Williams was going to Bust...but then he was selected by the Timberwolves!
Rubio w/ Wes could be OK
but I could see it being a disaster too. Easily. That’s just me tho, thinking worst case.
Worst case of Rubio and Martin is still fine.
FGA
Never realized Martin had such a high FGA. I think he’d be great on the roster.
by Mac of the MIAC on Dec 11, 2011 12:24 PM CST reply actions
I hope this is true...
He’s easily one of the most efficient offensive players in the league definately at sg, his defense has been more than passable under Adelman so I’m all for this deal. I would imagine that Beasley and/or Wes(that’s just a guess) would be involved which is more than fine. He fills a major weakness and is a perfect compliment to Love.
Offensive efficiency would be sweet...
Love and Martin are proven to be super efficient and DW is projected to be efficient as well. Rubio won’t be jacking up shots and Wes will be primarily playing off transition buckets and spot-up Js in this offense. Beasley is one of our few volume scorers.
Because I believe Houston’s chief trade motive is to clear cap space, I feel the expiring deal of Beasley is key and I think it would be enough to get the deal done. Minnesota wins the “basketball” side of it, but Houston accomplishes its goals too.
That trade eats up all of Minnesota’s cap space, but we could also consider amnestying Martell or B.Miller if there’s an Immenent signing available to get another center.
On another note, it seems Kaman is a slam dunk to get shipped out now that D.Jordan seems certain to be retained in LAC.
Martin really knows how to get to the line and is efficient there.
I was wondering if part of the reason for getting Barea would be as part of a sign and trade to Houston.
That might be true
A Barea and Pek centered trade might appeal to Morey. I get the sense that Beasley won’t be traded (if at all) until the deadline. Adelman sounds like a guy who wants to see what he can do with Beasley first. Same with Randolph. After reading Adelmans transcript I get the distinct sense that only our fringe players are available.
For Morey, he’s tried to get Pek before, and Pec is a McHale guy. He’s going to be involved. After that, who knows? Maybe Luke as a combo PG/SG for them? If they’re willing to trade Martin it’s not going to be about maximizing value – it’ll be because Mac doesn’t want him. Hard to say. Would love to have Martin here tho. Maybe we get involved in a three way sign and trade with Houston and Denver involving Nene.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Dec 11, 2011 12:59 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Can't believe this needs to be pointed out
Teams can’t sign and trade players who were on another team’s roster at the end of the previous season.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 11, 2011 11:09 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Martin would be really exciting...
A lineup of Rubio, Martin, Dwill and Love under the guidance of Adelman would make for an awesomely efficient offense.
However, I remain pessimistic that we can get anything done.
I wish I had a sense of Wes’ trade value around the league. Would Wes + Pek fetch Martin? Would Beasley + Pek? Is Wes a more valuable asset than Beasley?
Agreed on all points...
The only players on this team who I believe possess any sense of long term value are Love, Rubio, Williams, and Randolph. I’d be willing to trade any combination of other players to get Martin, but it’s hard to imagine Morey going for that. Although, Morey does value positional flexibility which we can offer in Beasley and Wes. Would Wes, Beasley, and Pek be enough to get it done? Probably not, but one can hope.
I don't get your Randolph mention
Randolph has not yet even cracked the starting lineup for this pathetic team. How valuable could he be? I know he has sky-high potential, but as of today, that’s all that it is. The NBA is littered with lots of players with sky-high potential who never fulfill said potential.
by ogishkemuncie on Dec 11, 2011 1:19 PM CST up reply actions
It won't take as much as you think to get Martin.
Houston wants to shed his salary. I’m also a bit surprised to hear you like AR that much. He seems like an inconsistent tease to me, but I would like to see what Adelman can do with him. That said, I’d rush to accept a deal if Houston wanted Randolph as part of the deal.
In the little bit that he played for us AR did have a PER of 18.5
so there is that.
AR was also really good in limited minutes..
with the Warriors. Randolph is quite the enigma. He has put up really good numbers for a player his age, but seems to get shoved deep into the bench wherever he winds up.
Personally, I value Randolph 3rd or 4th on our team (can’t decide between him and Williams). I think he has an honest shot at quickly becoming a stud, but his league-wide value is nowhere close to that. The fact we got him for free should be telling. His value league-wide is probably behind Love, Rubio, Beasley, and Wes, if not Pek, Tolliver, and Ridnour.
If Randolph were somewhere else
Would you have traded the #2 pick to get him? Try to ignore his league-wide value if that hypothetical makes sense.
I would have considered it in last year's draft..
but honestly I am just very confused by Randolph. Between his vitals and actual on court performance throughout his career, he looks very attractive. However, there is clearly some reason that he simply can’t stick in the rotation of multiple bad to mediocre teams. The man has me flummoxed.
It's very strange
You can go through his gamelogs and it seems like every time he has been given minutes he has been very successful. But never gets consistant playtime..
He makes mental errors
that don’t show up in the stat sheet, but drive coaches nuts.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
Sort of player who dominates summer ball. (And he has.)
What he needs is a coach who can give him a clearly-defined role, and demand that he produce consistently in it. Too bad we don’t have such a coach on board.
But we do!
"Opinion ...a confession."
Anthony Randolph...
1) At the very least, AR has spent periods of time demonstrating an ability to be productive and efficient at the NBA level. Given how much PT both Beasley and Wes have been given, this can’t really be said about those two guys. Plus, I couldn’t shake the feeling last year that the Wolves were just better when Beasley was on the floor.
2) I’d also like to see how Randolph is without a soul crushing coach (Nelson, D’Antoni, and Rambis/Laimbeer/Wohl all kind of fit that description). It would be great to see how he does playing extended minutes next to Love next season.
3) So I’m not all in on Randolph, but at the very least I think he’s a pretty good prospect going forward, and I’m moderately excited about his potential.
The artist formally known as Blakeley
It certainly helps his case
that everytime people ask Ricky about the athleticism of the team he always mentions Anthony Randolph first. I think AR is the Dean Garrett of this team (only old school Wolf fans need apply).
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Dec 11, 2011 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
Marbs was in particularly eloquent form that day.
He must have dabbed some vaseline on his vocal chords.
"Opinion ...a confession."
If their primary goal is to shed salary
Then that’s great, because we can help them with that while filling up their roster with potential and assets they could pretty easily flip. If we could pull off a Beasley, Webster, Darko/Pek deal for Martin I would be pretty excited. Toss in the rumored 2 year deal with barea and we have ourselves a very good looking lineup.
Reading a lot out there who are down on Wes, and I get it. But no matter how old he is, it was his first year in the NBA and going off everything I read about him during the lockout, he worked his butt off this summer. Excited to watch him.
by ackledude13 on Dec 11, 2011 10:15 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Nobody should look down on a rookie season under rambus..
He tried to break love, did break flynn, and I don’t see any case where he did anything to utilize any of wes’s strengths.
We need to see more of wes before he is given up on.
Woj tweets Houston signs M.Gasol to big offer sheet...
Rockets must shed salary if they are to sign Gasol or Nene.
Weirdly, there are rumors that they are trying to make a sign and trade deal with Memphis
I have absolutely no idea what that would look like; Memphis needs their center, not anything Houston could offer them.
Seems more likely that Houston would look to shed salary to make Gasol the biggest offer they could; the problem with that for them is that if they give away a good player like Martin to get some more cap space, and then Memphis still matches the offer anyway, they are just worse off.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 2:42 PM CST up reply actions
The only way we get Martin
is if Houston is shoppin him. The houston roster needs two C’s, a SG or back up PG. If they want sign a C in free agency that leaves back up C (maybe pekovic+1st or Randolph), a SG for save money (maybe Wes) and back up pg (Ridnour). They worst contract is Thabeet and maybe Scola. Scola can play but i think the big contract was the reason why they want trade him to NO.
We should save this thread
And look at it at the end of season. I guarantee most of the values people put on players will be wildly different than they are right now.
I’ll call it the Rambis skew.
I hope we don't get Martin
He is too old and gets paid too much. Plus he gets hurt too often. I say pass. People need to look at these facts instead of his numbers in this case.
He's not even 29 yet.
And Wes plays like he’s wearing oven mitts.
by fanslaststand on Dec 11, 2011 4:01 PM CST up reply actions
wes is not that bad
He played for a bad coach he could not even coach Shaq and Kobe
Agreed
Wes is fine don’t need an another shooter. If Wes can play better defense and play well within the system we will do well. No overpaid chumps needed especially if it makes the defense worse will little to gain on offense
by tallandthicks on Dec 11, 2011 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
I think the 7+ FTAs more that Martin gets
is just the start of why we’d gain a whole lot more that “a little” on offense.
tallandthicks - you seriously don't think The Wolves need another shooter?
What perimeter scoring has satisfied you on the current roster?
First off Martin’s game will not get 7fa a game next season will the new rules on offense for shooter contact
I hope we don’t at least I’d wait and build this team from what we have for this season another poor defender isn’t going to help us either. Afflalo yes Martin hell no
by tallandthicks on Dec 11, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions
Not for this team
we might win 25 games that would a good start but let’s be realistic no SG other than Wade or Kobe is going to take this team to the playoffs.
by tallandthicks on Dec 11, 2011 6:56 PM CST up reply actions
Are we an immediate playoff team with Martin?
Perhaps not, but that doesn’t necessarily have to be the goal. Martin helps our poor offense (and despite the per game numbers, make no mistake — our offense is poor) a great deal. It would be great to get a defensive stalwart, but Martin is a very good player, and I can’t understand why Wolves fans wouldn’t want to dramatically increase the level of talent on this team.
I think wes
maybe turn in a good sg in his career, but we need experience on the team. Players who make us win the close games and knows the league and his opponents. Addelman knows it.
Maybe the new rules affect his stats, but a good point here is that if they foul him after reach 5 team fouls he gets the shots anyway. And those are the FT that count most, when the clock is running off.
We need a perimetral scorer like him since, i cant remember.
At first I was opposed to Martin for salary reasons,
and the fact that I didn’t really known anything about him (outside of him torching the wolves every single time they played)..
But if we can get a player like him we kinda have to. I don’t think that anyone can say that he wouldn’t help this team. And his contract is not that bad when you compare it to the ridiculous money that is being thrown around this offseason.
Seriously, nearly 1.5pps? Why again is houstion trying to dump him?
They aren't, but it was part of the price to get a Gasol
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Wes was THAT BAD last year.
Crunch had better handles than Johnson and that was from the mascot position which isn’t his natural fit.
by fanslaststand on Dec 11, 2011 4:47 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Heh--
Well, that’s where Rambis put him, so . . .
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
I don't see how you put Crunch there night after night
One game, a stretch, sure, fine. All season?
The guy’s an animal. Never blinks. He’s hungry like…I don’t know. He’s hungry.
by fanslaststand on Dec 11, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Adelman managed his minutes last year and he played 80 games...
And how is late-20s “too old”? As for his contract, I would agree with you if he had 4-5 years left on his contract, but he’s only got two years left. If he’s overpaid, it is only by a little bit and the way he helps us on the court far surpass that small detail.
Martin played 80 games under Adelman last season.
Adelman managed his minutes pretty well, Martin is only 28(he turns 29 next year), he only has two years left on his contract, and Wes really is that bad. Regardless of how bad Rambis is/was Wes inability to dribble, rebound, or hit a shot in which he wasn’t wide open. Martin is the superior player and is an actually NBA sg.
I do think Wes will be a big part of this team.
I don’t know if Kahn ever explicitly stated this, but Wes’ very obvious weaknesses have a really good shot at being concealed with a ball-dominant PG like Rubio.
That said, he’s not the answer at SG all by himself. The Wolves need a proven competant player to start at SG… I like the idea of Wes being the primary back-up at both the SG and SF positions.
Interesting that Barca had the exact opposite player from Wes next to Ricky...
With Juan Carlos Navarro. Personally i think Navarro snuffed Rubio’s production BUT Barca also won a ton of games.
I’ll let Kahnzie figure it out.
by fanslaststand on Dec 11, 2011 6:26 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
Will be nice to start scoring with passes to cutters. Guys like Beasley and Wes will be much more efficient because they will get a lot of easy baskets.
Add A.Randolph to that mix...
It’s frustrating that we seem to have so many players who would be better off not thinking… that said – AR, Beasley & Wes could lead the league in SportsCenter highlights if all they do is run and catch passes from Rubio.
I just don't see someone as flawed as him being a big part of this team.
Even with Rubio on the roster it still doesn’t solve the Wolves not having a consistent threat to go to in the half court or when the shot clock runs out, not to mention Martin’s defensive numbers look pretty good under Adelman.
If Wes plus pieces can get you someone much much better than himself like Martin you have to jump on this deal. I just don’t see how anyone wouldn’t give up someone you refer to as “being the primary back-up at both the SG and SF positions” and others believe can become an Afflalo type of player when these types are so easily found later in the draft and in free agency.
I'd be vary of Martin
New NBA rule changes:
""Rip-through" moves, in which an offensive player swings the ball into a defender’s outstretched arm and then attempts a shot once he has created contact, will be considered non-shooting fouls if the contact begins before the offensive player starts his shooting motion."
That move is his bread and butter as far as free throw scoring goes. If he can’t get to the FT line consistently anymore, he could become a net negative, considering his complete lack of defense. Plus he’s injury prone.
agreed
no super star bailouts we can hope right?
by tallandthicks on Dec 11, 2011 6:51 PM CST up reply actions
It could be a major change
There is also a change in the continuation rule that sounds like it will more or less end continuations. We’ll see how it plays out.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 7:52 PM CST up reply actions
I also read some language
that was less specific, but seemed to my eye to be pretty clearly directed at the practice of getting a defender in the air on a pump fake away from the basket and jumping into him while barely staying aloft long enough for an attempt at the basket. This bugs me WAY more than the rip move because it’s so egregious even casual observers have the feeling it shouldn’t be legal. It’s embarrassing.
The jumping into part I agree
is terrible. But there will be judgment calls about whether the player actually jumps into the defender. If a player gets a defender to bite on a pump fake, and gets contact, that’s good offense and should be rewarded. A somewhat fine line.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah...
Wade is the best in the business at this, and sometimes he’s faking a fadeaway and the defender jumps toward him. Other times, the defender jumps straight up and Wade initiates the contact.
I would love to see the latter called as an offensive foul. The former is rightly called a shooting foul.
Exactly
It will be interesting to see how this stuff plays out on the court.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
The shooter should have the rights to his cylinder
and whatever space falls within a defensible range of basketball moves. If that’s the way it was called, I’d be fine with ALL of the judgment calls going to the shooter. In the same way, if a defender goes airborne and the offensive player dribbles into him, I’m fine with ALL of those calls going to the offensive player. The problem for me is that any airborne space is given to the shooter. If to initiate contact you have to execute a motion that would never in a million years be executed in open space, you shouldn’t get be rewarded. You can’t leave your feet as a defender, and that’s always been true in basketball. To put it a slightly different way in returning to the original beef: it’s not the foul that bothers me, it’s the FTs.
If these rule changes actually take hold...
I’m selling my Kevin Durant stock now.
by Ray Williams? on Dec 11, 2011 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
No need to worry about your stock's future value.
Like every rule in the NBA, there will be superstar exceptions.
It's worth noting that
just because that foul won’t automatically result in free throws doesn’t mean it won’t result in free throws. Starting with the fifth team foul of a quarter (or the second team foul in the final two minutes of the game) two free throws are awarded for each foul. And drawing fouls is almost always helpful even if they don’t result in shooting free throws. Getting opponents into foul trouble is a great way to get favorable match-ups, so I say bring in a player that draws a lot of fouls even if he’s not going to be parading to the line all night.
Toddler Riley Scientist
Does Bonzi Wells get the FT Line?
Sounds like Wolves are petitioning FIBA to get Wells eligible to practice. He played two seasons for Adelman (2005-06 in Sacto when he averaged 13.6 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 1.8 spg with a 16.68 PER; and 2007-2008 in Houston when he averaged 9.2 ppg, 5.1 rpg, 1.0 spg with a 14.38 PER).
It could happen here… hope he’s got some gas left in the tank.
JerryZgoda
According to a guy i know that has sources. We are offering Wes, Ridnour, and Pek/Darko for KevMart and low salary player .
by Simitar on Dec 11, 2011 4:56 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
That would be pretty sweet
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
I think this is the year Darko turns it around.
but I’m an idiot.
by fanslaststand on Dec 11, 2011 5:06 PM CST up reply actions
that's okay
I would try to hold on to Ridnour though. Maybe keep Wes too and trade Beasley instead. Beasley + Darko for K-Mart.
Where do you see this?
Not on his Twitter feed.
Yeah, not sure how real that offer is
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
I mean I'd do that, but I don't see specific rumor anywhere.
We know they want Pek, but beyond that, who knows.
Copied from another board.
Unless Wirth is someone, I have no idea if it has any validity.
Yeah there isn't any Twitter conversation
from Zgoda that has that in it.
I saw this on the twitter feed.
Trying to remember who it was to. It would make sense in terms of why we are pursuing Barea.
Okay I found it.
The Cody Wirth guy said that his “sources” heard this, and Zgoda expressed skepticism that he would make that trade if he were the Wolves.
CDub1532 Cody Wirth
@JerryZgoda According to a guy i know that has sources. We are offering Wes, Ridnour, and Pek/Darko for KevMart and low salary player
3 hours ago
@JerryZgoda
Jerry Zgoda
@CDub1532 Then signing Barea makes sense, but not sure I would do that deal…
Seems like it to me too
Hard to see Houston agreeing to this, unless McHale convinces Morey that Pekovic is really something.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 5:38 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
Hard to classify Wes as a “bad” player yet, but I know what you mean. For this year’s purposes, if we could effectively trade Wes/Luke/Pek for Martin/Berea, you do that in a heartbeat.
I comfortably put Wes in the bad grouping...
He got plenty of time last year, he’s pretty old, and his numbers are pretty consistent with what was expected based on his college production.
The artist formally known as Blakeley
I just caught your tagline
Howzitgoing?
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
I wasn't overly impressed by Wes last year.
But doesn’t it seem rationale to see what he can do with a common-sense coach like Adelman?
I think Rambis is a nice guy, but I think each of The Wolves players will be at least 10-15% better just by having Adelman coaching them.
by foobee on Dec 11, 2011 6:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe slightly better...
but how much better could he really get?
Wes’ Career Efg…
Wes 2006/2007 Efg: .50
Wes 2007/2008 Efg: .48
Wes 2009/2010 Efg: .56
Wes 2010/2011 Efg: .47
The artist formally known as Blakeley
Making my triumphant return to Canis Hoopus Land!
New Name, Same Attitude!
The artist formally known as Blakeley
Not sure how we're calling Ridnour bad???????
I think he is a great backup PG. Shoots well, good solid player. Maybe Wes\ Darko were the “Bad” players?
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 12, 2011 12:54 AM CST up reply actions
I think Houston's motivations would have to be related to
non-BASKETBALL REASONS. Like salary cap maneuvering to go after Nene/Gasol and/or a disgruntled Martin.
Yeah but still...
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions
It happens all the time.
In a vacuum, does it make basketball sense for The Lakers to just GIVE Lamar Odom away to a division rival? No, but LAL is clearly positioning for something else.
If Houston has eyes for Nene, then clearing K.Martin’s salary makes perfect sense, does it not?
I'd love to hold onto Wes if possible
but if that’s what it takes, that’s what it takes.
You just stated exactly how I feel.
I’m totally optimistic about Wes playing a big role in the rotation… but if it’s a requirement to include him to get Martin, bon voyage!
This is how I feel about Pek
I’d really be interested to see what he can do with a real coach, a real PG, and another year of experience, but if he needs to be included to get Martin, so be it.
Darko is going to jump off a cliff
if we ship Pek out. I’ll let you decide if that’s a good or bad thing.
If we are dumping Wes
I hope the other ‘low salary player’ is Budinger…only because I’m a volleyball fan :)
Rubio + DWilliams + Adelman = suck it Clippergeddon
No way they give up Budinger
If I had to guess, it would be Dragic.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 7:52 PM CST up reply actions
That's the reason I assume it's Dragic
Who really hasn’t played that well. If they are getting Ridnour, and already have Lowry, (and Flynn, and they just claimed Jeremy Lin), it’s too many PGs.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 7:57 PM CST up reply actions
I suppose I would assume that as well
if my hypotheticals were rooted in logic.
Rubio + DWilliams + Adelman = suck it Clippergeddon
Of course all of this is rooted in utterly baseless speculation
What fun!
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 12, 2011 7:51 AM CST up reply actions
I don't know if having the entire memphis Grizzles as part of a 3-way is a good idea...
Also the “taking in” part does not sound fun. PD?
"Blue"
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 12, 2011 6:56 AM CST up reply actions
That was a tweet to JerryZ
Not his tweet.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 11, 2011 5:28 PM CST up reply actions
I thought it was funny when the other night Zgoda was Twasking his Tweeple
What they thought of sending a few players off for Kevin Martin.
It made me wonder if the organization is so clueless that they have Zgoda ask the fans what they think of a deal before they do it.
It’s like that scene in Spies Like Us when Aykroyd and Chase are about the cut the guys appendix out and they keep looking at the real doctors for help on where to cut.
by fanslaststand on Dec 11, 2011 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
Own and love that movie....
…“I’ll take…. Eastern Europe”…. or “Your turn to drive”- not sure which one I like better.
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 12, 2011 12:58 AM CST up reply actions
Three for one
I think we should consider roster depth when contemplating these moves. One of the pluses I see for the Wolves right now is that they are potentially (that troubling word) strong through nine or ten guys. I’m not sure gaining a better starter is worth your sixth seventh and eighth players. I really think that the lack of roster depth relative to the length of games and length of season really hurts the quality of the NBA product. I’ve certainly drifted away from watching many times. Also, second units can win/lose games. I say this after having wished many times that we had Kevin Martin or a player like him,
by pastyearsears on Dec 11, 2011 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
I completely disagree
Of course you should trade your 6-8 guys to get a 2nd best guy. Every time. And even with this deal, there is still significant depth up front (Beasley, Williams, Tolliver, Love, Randolph, Darko). The backcourt is thin, but then it’s thin now.
In fact, one of their goals should be to get rid of guys who aren’t helping (read: Johnson and Darko/Pek in this trade).
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 5:38 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
You absolutely give up depth (especially marginal depth) for a true starter.
Depth is important...
but you obviously sacrifice depth to strengthen a starting position. Martin will probably play as many minutes as Wes/Pek combined anyway.
It's not like we have much depth anyways...
I’d Darko, Pek, Wes, Ellington, and Lazar were all probably below replacement level last year.
The artist formally known as Blakeley
True
I’m not sure how all the parts fit (that’s Adelman’s job), but how can you have a beef with the talent level in this Starting-5?
Rubio
K.Martin
Beasley
D.Williams
Love
I’m not really concerned about fit, though. If The Wolves trade for Kevin Martin, then that means that Adelman knows how he’s going to fit all the parts together. And for the first time since Flip and D.Casey, I’m 100-percent inclined to yield to the expertise of our head coach…
Oh I have no beef with that talent level....
Although I’d prefer:
Rubio
K. Martin
D. Williams
K. Love
A. Randolph
And I’d willingly include any combination of players not listed in this grouping to get K. Martin.
The artist formally known as Blakeley
Bonzi Wells?
What about 35-year-old Bonzi Wells as the 3rd-string SG? I think it’s funny that he’s in camp and even funnier that I think he’s got a really good chance to make the roster…
But that should be a testament for how badly The Wolves need an upgrade at SG.
I'm happy that A.Randolph is on the roster.
But as much tantalizing as he’s done over the years with his talents, he’s never put it together for a whole season.
I'm a big Hollinger Fan... read his pre-season take on A.Randolph
+ Long, extremely thin lefty big man who dribbles very well for size.
+ Excellent rebounder and shot-blocker. Barely tries on defense at times.
+ Poor outside shooter and terrible decision-maker. Good finisher at basket.
The defining Randolph sequence came in the final game of the season against Houston. In a close game, late in the fourth quarter, the Rockets were able to get consecutive dunks because Randolph walked back on defense. Not jogged. Walked.
Randolph’s inconsistent effort threatens to submarine some pretty serious potential. He ranked in the top third of power forwards in blocks, steals and rebounds and offensively he averaged better than a point every two minutes. Unfortunately he’s still a wildly inefficient offensive player. Although few big men dribble as well as he does in the open court, that dissipates in traffic. He doesn’t have great body control on the drive and constantly loses the rock; only five power forwards had a worse turnover ratio. And he didn’t compensate for those errors with a lot of assists; mostly he drove for his own shot.
Randolph can get to the rim, but too often he takes the jump shots that opposing defenses happily conceded to him. He tried a shot beyond 10 feet once every five minutes last season, and converted only 33.9 percent of them, barely half his percentage at the rim. Based on all this, one good way to use him may be to take the ball (and decisions) out of his hands and have him operate as the dive man in the pick-and-roll, where he can finish strong and draw fouls.
Defensively, Randolph is potentially awesome but for the moment average — he has the length and skill of a Marcus Camby, but his moments of shot-blocking splendor are offset by an abundant lack of strength and a frequent absence of focus or effort. He’s only 22 and has a world of potential, but there’s a reason he’s already on his third team.
I like this take.
I have no idea what his value might be league-wide, but I often suspect that Randolph’s greatest contribution to the organization might be to tempt some optimistic GM to roll the dice and swing an older, established player our way. We all wish he could morph into a center, but I just don’t see it happening, really ever. As a result, the best-case scenario for him on this squad is back-up PF, and we have plenty of coin invested in that slot already.
I've viewed his upside as a Birdman-esque defensive center
But he’d get pushed around by big centers… which is why we have Darko, I suppose. Darko actually defends to the big centers reasonably well. An optimist would view our center rotation as passable, but I’d still like another legit player there.
Remember- AR
Just put on 20+ lbs of muscle. He knows what he needs to do, and is taking it seriously to fit on THIS team (Center). Love to see him start to get it on D. He’s the absolute PERFECT fit with Rubio. Running, catching, slamming. Please don’t trade AR- I need to see a good filling of alley-oops featuring RR & AR this year.
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 12, 2011 1:04 AM CST up reply actions
If AR had 20+ lbs of muscle...
… for every summer he allegedly added 20+ lbs of muscle, we’d be in trade talks with the Magic right now.
by TheH on Dec 12, 2011 2:06 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I posted this elsewhere,
but it is possible that he has put on 15-20 lbs each off-season. Many players in all sports lose weight over the season and then regain it in the off-season with a heavier focus on weight training.
Darn.
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 13, 2011 1:08 AM CST up reply actions
This:
One of the pluses I see for the Wolves right now is that they are potentially (that troubling word) strong through nine or ten guys. I’m not sure gaining a better starter is worth your sixth seventh and eighth players.
. . . is sarcasm, right?
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
by PoorDick on Dec 11, 2011 6:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's only depth if the players are good...
Wes, Pek, and Darko weren’t very good last season so I don’t consider them good backups or depth. Wes would be replaced with Martin who is the far superior basketball player, Pek or Darko being traded would probably mean more minutes for Tolliver(which is a good thing) and you can sign another backup pg, which is what Ridnour is with Rubio on the roster.
Because of post defense,
I’d rather sign Krylo Fesenko to replace Pekovic anyway. Pekovic is a better post scorer than Fesenko, but Krylo plays incredible defense. To me, that’s a net positive swap. If getting Martin means losing Pekovic, I won’t lose a wink of sleep over it.
by foobee on Dec 11, 2011 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Reggie Williams
I like the idea of signing this guy… but he’s got his clear warts. Despite his 15ish PER, here is Hollinger’s pre-season take on the guy. I like him as a back-up, but wish he were better defensively:
+ No-necked left-handed wing with scorer’s instincts. Great feel for game.
+ Very good spot-up shooter. Careful player — rarely draws fouls or turns it over.
+ Subpar defender. Poor lateral movement and athleticism. Handles ball well.
Yet another D-League find by the Warriors, Williams is a natural offensively, making him ideal in the sixth-man role. Few were more efficient last season, as Williams was third among shooting guards in TS% and had the third-lowest turnover ratio. He wasn’t just gunning for himself, either, ranking 13th among shooting guards in pure point rating and often threading passes off the dribble for easy chances. He shot 42.3 percent on 3s and 67.6 percent at the basket, and averaged 18.2 points per 40 minutes despite lacking a huge offensive role.
All of which suggests he might be capable of even more in a different system, and now that he’s a free agent, we’ll likely find out. Williams had some blemishes in his mark — he doesn’t draw many fouls and his 3-point percentage is likely to regress. But the biggest one is his defense, which is a major liability.
The Warriors didn’t encourage their players to play much defense, and Williams took that advice to heart. Although his on-court-versus-off-court differential was fine, Synergy rated him the second-worst player in the league and subjective evaluation supported that contention. Williams isn’t a great athlete to begin with, and although he appeared to be in better shape last season, his body still looks a bit doughy. He will struggle defensively in any system, but in this one the only thing that prevented him from standing out was the competing awfulness of several teammates. He had the fifth-lowest steals rate among shooting guards and was last in blocks, rejecting three shots the entire season.
Who the heck is that? Krylo who?
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 12, 2011 1:05 AM CST up reply actions
He was with the Jazz last season
A 7 foot Euro. Kind of a stiff, but apparently he’s an amazing post defender and is a factor with the whole team because he’s got such a huge standing reach.
Not really
I don’t understand it and I don’t think Hollinger does either, judging from his article, but Fesenko’s teams are just flat out better defensively when he’s on the court.
They must really be looking to dump salary if they're even considering that deal.
The best player the Wolves are giving up is Ridnour, this is a no-brainer from a Wolves perspective, this seems to good to be true so lets see if something actually happens.
It's true, but Houston still has Courtney Lee at SG
and then has the cash to sign Nene. What would you rather have – Lee-Nene or Martin-Thabeet?
by foobee on Dec 11, 2011 6:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
We need to have someone start arguing against this trade...
because no trade actually goes down unless both teams have some angst about it and some good arguments on the boards.
I can’t give any argument. I’d like to see what KMart has for that price.
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 12, 2011 11:20 PM CST up reply actions
Then I would guess
We replace Ridnour with JJ Barea???
"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"
Or Chauncey Billips.
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 12, 2011 1:12 AM CST up reply actions
If we get Martin and Barrea this will be the best offseason in team history
"Blue"
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 11, 2011 5:22 PM CST reply actions
To hell with long and athletic
Now we’re building a?….Defensive Juggernaut!
by pastyearsears on Dec 11, 2011 8:19 PM CST up reply actions
I think...
People who remember 1995 and 2003 would strongly disagree.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 11, 2011 11:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Noticed GS just rescinded offer sheet to Reggie Williams?
Williams is only 24 or 25 has a high shooting percentage and decent PER. Should also come cheap.
Noticed that too
interesting if nothing better emerges over the next day or so. He’s a better player than Wes Johnson.
GSW using amnesty on an expiring (Bell) and waiving Williams just so they can make an offer to a guy that they must know is going to get matched? Odd.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 11, 2011 5:41 PM CST up reply actions
Another one of the wings that GS unearthed that is better than Wes.
They do it all the freaking time.
No kidding
That said, I was impressed enough with Tolliver that I’ll take a chance on another one of their D league finds if we can’t land KMart.
just saw this
@DarrenWolfson Darren Wolfson
Believe R.J. Adelman is figuring out what it’ll take. Dad would like him. RT @RennyRen21 @DarrenWolfson what’s the latest on K-Mart/Wolves?
http://twitter.com/#!/DarrenWolfson/status/146012718439211008
Saw this a while back... but it's hard to ever run with something Doogie reports
Besides, it kind of just states what we already knew… Adelman wants K.Martin and RJ is the guy on the staff who gets involved with the personnel stuff. I’ll give Doogie some more cred if he tweets something more substantive.
That said, I’m glad folks are buzzing about this K.Martin thing…
Interesting comparing Afflalo to Martin defensively.
on 82 games. Martin gives up less EFG and less PER than Afflalo by a fair amount. Doesn’t seem a defensive liability at all .Not what you would call good but maybe average.
Any mitigating factors there?
If not, does that just say that K.Martin’s defense has improved to the point that his actual play supercedes his reputation as a so-so defender?
Defense is all about want to
and not being 5’10
and not having to look at your feet before you move them
and not having a six inch vertical
and not being dumber than a brick
and…sorry, but I’m deboning (spell check doesn’t get that one—Where is my Funk & Wagnals?) a turkey between return trips here, and there is so much to pick at. Things are so damn complicated.
by pastyearsears on Dec 11, 2011 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
Wages of wins says he produced 6.5 wins
that is only third best on Houston team. They ranked him 76th best player in NBA and Ridnour 82 best.
Youre f*cking stupid if you don't want Martin
Trade Beasley and junk for him. Everybody wins.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
Maybe it's time to think again about which SG's we'd like...
I think KMart is interesting, but also like Ellis personally for the fire in him and clutch shot confidence. Crap D, so the struggle in my mind begins. Turner (or heck, Iggy again- although more of a SF I suppose) are other options that I think we could get for the right price.
Keep Love, Ricky, DWill, AR- the rest are trade-able in my opinion for the right price. I do like Tolliver, and Luke, and Martel if he can get his back back.
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
Somebody's thinking
I work nights, but am off, it being Sunday: so I keep coming back to scratch my TWolves itch. I’ve always liked Kevin Martin a lot but I’ve been wondering too what other options the Wolves might have for 14mil/yr if that figure is right. Also, if, heaven forbid, Rubio isn’t all we’re counting on Ellis is a more versatile ball handler.
The whole ‘poor defender’ thing is confusing, I remember people saying Chauncey couldn’t play defense when he was here. I think Carlile and Brown proved otherwise. Defense is hard work and takes concentration and therefore seems to be the last thing many players buy into. If coaching brings results and wins, players will buy in and then we’ll see who can and will play defense. I suspect most of these guys are athletic enough, but are they hard working enough and can they process what’s happening fast enough? I used to hire young guys to drive skidsteers in close quarters, I always told them that the trick was to stop just before you hit something and not just after. Last year I had the feeling that some/many of the Wolves were always turning and thinking, “Oh Yeah, I forgot about that.”
by pastyearsears on Dec 12, 2011 1:59 AM CST up reply actions
Ha- good analogy
Yup- Billips came to mind as well. FAs aren’t needed, just a team looking to make a move (GS a good example).
Still have my Foye jersey. Hey- at least she TRIED! :--)
by LoveLovesLove on Dec 12, 2011 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
Thing I like about Martin on the Wolves...
First, as a scoring SG, he fills an obvious need (especially with Martell out for the foreseeable future). A scorer in the back court will open up opportunities for Love, Williams and Beast (if he’s not traded). It would also be a security blanket for Rubio to have a go-to scorer to feed (I just don’t think Beasley is reliable enough to fill this role).
Second, with only a two-week (or so) training camp, Martin’s familiarity with Adelman’s offensive/defensive schemes could be an important aspect in helping the team jell early in the season.
"Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously."
— Hunter S. Thompson
I'm assuming because of the proposed trade.
If we are to believe the rumors, the Wolves have offered Ridnour in a package for Martin. If that’s true then we’d need a backup PG and Bare seems like he’d be a good fit.
Adelman may not want to have to play Wes at the 2
maybe he thinks wes will perform better in select minutes at the 3 and then who do the wolves have to play any 2 minutes? Ridnour (assuming no trade) could take a couple. A few go to Malcom Lee, I think Ellington gets the shaft, so they sign Barea to take some 1 and 2 minutes.
Not ideal but it adds a little more flexibility to the lineup. I think if the wolves do trade for Martin either Wes or Beasley is out. My guess would actually be Beasley since Houston wants to clear some cap room for next year which would leave DThrill and Wes to man down the 4 and 3 spot respectively when Love plays the 5. When Love plays the 4 that gives them some quality depth at the 3, but not overkill.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 12, 2011 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
Don't need defense if we score 130 points per game!
You gotta pay the troll toll, to get into this boy's soul.
twitter.com/JayAreW
Wes' future is off the bench as a backup 2/3
He will very successful in that role, if he embraces it. He’ll be a defensive stopper who can block shots and steal the ball at a good rate, while also shooting a high % from 3.
That’s a valuable player. Possibly the next Shane Battier-type. Trade Beasley please.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
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