Projecting Derrick Williams 2
I made an earlier attempt to project Derrick Williams (here), but rereading that post I am not entirely happy with it. I don't mind the Luis Scola and David West comparisons that I arrived at, but I think I underrated Williams' athleticism, and spent too much time comparing him to high-usage players and strong rebounders. These aren't good comps because Williams is unlikely to fit into either mold. Since Williams ultimately became a Timberwolf, I felt the need to rework my assessment and try to construct as good of a projection as I can. This post tries to find a better set of comparisons than I used in the last, and then reiterates the problem of projecting scoring-centric players like Derrick Williams.
via basketballonmymind.files.wordpress.com
Let's look at the numbers:
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Williams |
NCAA |
19 |
18.5 |
22.2 |
12.9 |
0.7 |
25 |
0.62 |
0.82 |
10 |
1 |
0.9 |
2.7 |
|
Williams |
NCAA |
20 |
22.3 |
25.7 |
13.2 |
2.6 |
56.8 |
0.69 |
0.87 |
10.9 |
1.5 |
0.9 |
3.5 |
Williams only used 22.3% of Arizona's possessions last season. This is an unusually low number for a collegiate superstar. Williams did not dominate the ball with Arizona, and given his low assist and high turnover rates he was probably pushing up against his usage ceiling. Instead Williams inserted himself into the flow of the offense and created opportunities off-ball. Impressively, Williams still managed to be a huge offensive threat. Williams' 26 points per 40 (pace adjusted) is higher than Carmelo Anthony's 24.4 and only slightly lower than Kevin Durant's 26.9, even though those two stars carried significantly higher usage rates. Williams accomplished this feat thanks to his historically efficient scoring. When he did get a possession, he turned it into a basket. In particular, Williams did an exceptional job of getting to the line (0.87 FTA/FGA 2nd among NCAA forwards) and knocking down 3s with outlier-level accuracy (56.8%). As a scorer, Williams was an A+ collegiate player. He scored a lot, he scored in a variety of ways, and he did so in an unbelievably efficient manner.
Unfortunately, Williams is not a special player outside of scoring. His 10.9 rebounds per 40 minutes was satisfactory but unimpressive for an NBA destined big. This places him in the same class as scoring role-players like Carmelo and Durant, while making any comparison to multi-faceted forwards like Beasley and Griffin problematic. Williams also disappointed in terms of assists, steals, blocks, and turnovers. Williams was a one-tool college player, and that one tool was scoring.
Williams' path to NBA success is as a medium usage scoring-forward. He will score with a combination of outside shooting, attacking the rim, and getting to the line. My goal here is to find similar players and how they made this type of game work in the pros. There is no perfect comp for Williams due to his extreme free throw rate, 3-point accuracy, and scoring efficiency. However there are definitely players who fit the same basic model as Derrick Williams.
Probably my favorite Williams comp in terms of physical profile and style is former #4 draft pick Marcus Fizer:
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Williams |
NCAA |
20 |
22.3 |
25.7 |
13.2 |
2.6 |
56.8 |
0.69 |
0.87 |
10.9 |
1.5 |
0.9 |
3.5 |
|
Fizer |
NCAA |
21 |
27.14 |
18.1 |
1.3 |
35.7 |
0.625 |
0.43 |
9.17 |
1.31 |
1.31 |
2.5 |
Looking at the numbers, there are some similarities between the two, but Fizer was definitely a higher usage player, wasn't as successful from range, and did not match Williams' knack for getting to the line. Thankfully, I think we can avoid Fizer as an ideal Williams comparison.
Another player who meshes nicely with Williams physically is former #10 draft pick out of Arizona State, Ike Diogu:
via sportige.com
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Williams |
NCAA |
19 |
18.5 |
22.2 |
12.9 |
0.7 |
25 |
0.62 |
0.82 |
10 |
1 |
0.9 |
2.7 |
|
Williams |
NCAA |
20 |
22.3 |
25.7 |
13.2 |
2.6 |
56.8 |
0.69 |
0.87 |
10.9 |
1.5 |
0.9 |
3.5 |
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Diogu |
NCAA |
19 |
22.2 |
23.7 |
13.4 |
0.9 |
37.5 |
0.66 |
0.71 |
9.7 |
1 |
1.2 |
3.5 |
|
Diogu |
NCAA |
20 |
26.7 |
24.7 |
13.6 |
1.5 |
37.8 |
0.64 |
0.88 |
9.7 |
1.8 |
1.9 |
4 |
|
Diogu |
NCAA |
21 |
26.2 |
24.9 |
13.7 |
1.5 |
40 |
0.67 |
0.78 |
10.7 |
1.5 |
2.6 |
4 |
Diogu is one of the few forwards who carried a FTA to FGA ratio on par with Williams. Diogu was also pretty dangerous from the 3-point line in college. While Diogu carried a higher usage rate than Williams as a sophomore and junior, his turn-over rate indicates that he probably shouldn't have. I can't find any other player whose college numbers match this clearly with Williams' excellent TS%, scoring profile, and mediocre off-ball stats. The only major difference between the two is that Diogu struggled to take even college players off the dribble. This was not a weakness for Williams.
While he was a superior collegiate rebounder and defender, and wasn't nearly as special from deep, David West is certainly another strong comp for Williams:
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Williams |
NCAA |
19 |
18.5 |
22.2 |
12.9 |
0.7 |
25 |
0.62 |
0.82 |
10 |
1 |
0.9 |
2.7 |
|
Williams |
NCAA |
20 |
22.3 |
25.7 |
13.2 |
2.6 |
56.8 |
0.69 |
0.87 |
10.9 |
1.5 |
0.9 |
3.5 |
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
West |
NCAA |
19 |
23.8 |
21.4 |
13.4 |
1.1 |
31 |
0.61 |
0.66 |
11.4 |
18 |
2.9 |
3.6 |
|
West |
NCAA |
20 |
24.5 |
22.1 |
14.2 |
0.9 |
34.6 |
0.6 |
0.62 |
12.9 |
3.5 |
1.7 |
2.9 |
I discussed this one in my previous Williams projection.
If we assume Williams' 3-point accuracy wasn't a fluke, and that his handles are better than someone like Ike Diogu, we start moving into some more interesting comps. There are a number of very successful NBA players who rely primarily on precision shooting from range and getting to the line. Some of these are smaller more perimeter oriented players like James Harden, Kevin Martin, and Paul Pierce who wouldn't make good comps for Williams. However, I can think of at least two combo-forwards and one big who play this kind of game, Danilo Gallinari, Danny Granger, and Kevin Love:
via a.espncdn.com
via i.cdn.turner.com
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Williams |
NCAA |
19 |
18.5 |
22.2 |
12.9 |
0.7 |
25 |
0.62 |
0.82 |
10 |
1 |
0.9 |
2.7 |
|
Williams |
NCAA |
20 |
22.3 |
25.7 |
13.2 |
2.6 |
56.8 |
0.69 |
0.87 |
10.9 |
1.5 |
0.9 |
3.5 |
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Gallinari |
ITALI |
18 |
12.5 |
16.7 |
10.9 |
4.3 |
29.9 |
0.58 |
0.69 |
5.9 |
1.5 |
0.5 |
1.6 |
|
Gallinari |
ITALI |
19 |
18.3 |
21.3 |
13.3 |
5.5 |
40.5 |
0.63 |
0.59 |
6.9 |
1.6 |
0.6 |
2.2 |
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Granger |
NCAA |
21 |
25.7 |
24.4 |
15.8 |
4.1 |
33.3 |
0.6 |
0.63 |
11.2 |
2.6 |
1.8 |
3.4 |
|
Granger |
NCAA |
22 |
22.5 |
25.1 |
15.5 |
4.6 |
43.3 |
0.64 |
0.58 |
11.8 |
3.2 |
2.7 |
3.2 |
|
age |
% Pos |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Love |
NCAA |
19 |
21.1 |
24.3 |
14.5 |
2.9 |
35.4 |
0.65 |
0.64 |
14.8 |
2.7 |
2 |
2.8 |
Interestingly, Kevin Love (sans rebounding) may be one of the better comps for Williams. Williams wasn't as competent distributing and hanging onto the ball as Love, but both relied on a combination of deep shooting and getting fouled in the paint. This offensive strategy has worked well for Kevin in the NBA and hopefully he can pass the knowledge along to Derrick. All three of these players have continued to shoot the lights out in the NBA. Love has become one of the better foul drawing bigs in the NBA (0.49 FTA/FGA), Granger has consistently made the charity stripe a part of his game (0.37 FTA/FGA), and although it took him a couple of years to get it going, Gallinari turned drawing fouls into an art-form this past season (0.62 FTA/FGA). None of these guys is a great match for Williams physically, but he could certainly fill an offensive niche similar to that occupied by Gallinari, Granger, and Love.
This reliance on a combination of inside-outside scoring and getting to the line would also describe top-flight collegiate scorers Michael Beasley, Kevin Durant and Carmelo Anthony (and the NBA incarnations of the later two). However, Williams simply isn't in these guys' class in terms of usage and ball security, making them very unlikely eventualities and poor comparisons. Given that Williams had trouble securing the ball with his moderate NCAA usage, it is not realistic to project him as a Durant or Carmelo style scorer in the NBA. While NBA Beasley is a possible pessimistic outcome for Williams, NCAA Beasley was a wholly different player.
So the comps I came up with are Fizer, Diogu, West. Gallinari, Granger, and Love (sans rebounding). Here is how each of these players looked during their second season in the NBA:
|
age |
USG% |
Pts |
FGA |
3PtA |
3P% |
TS% |
FT/FG |
Rebs |
Asts |
Blks |
TOs |
||
|
Williams |
NBA |
? |
? |
? |
? |
? |
? |
? |
? |
? |
? |
? |
? |
|
Fizer |
NBA |
23 |
25.9 |
19.1 |
17.3 |
0.9 |
17.1 |
0.482 |
0.33 |
8.7 |
2.4 |
0.4 |
2.7 |
|
Diogu |
NBA |
23 |
22.8 |
18.1 |
13.6 |
0 |
0.53 |
0.52 |
10.4 |
1.5 |
2 |
3.2 |
|
|
West |
NBA |
22 |
19.4 |
13.5 |
12.5 |
0.4 |
40 |
0.48 |
0.29 |
9.3 |
1.7 |
1.2 |
2.7 |
|
Galinari |
NBA |
21 |
19.3 |
17.4 |
13.2 |
7 |
38.1 |
0.57 |
0.33 |
5.7 |
1.9 |
0.8 |
1.6 |
|
Granger |
NBA |
24 |
18.2 |
16.1 |
12.3 |
4.1 |
38.2 |
0.57 |
0.34 |
5.4 |
1.6 |
0.9 |
1.9 |
|
Love |
NBA |
21 |
22.4 |
18.8 |
14.4 |
2.4 |
33 |
0.54 |
0.43 |
14.7 |
3 |
0.5 |
2.6 |
When a team like the Wolves finally gets the #2 pick in the draft we really feel like we deserve a shot at a true super-star. Unfortunately, Williams simply doesn't have the tools to be a LeBron James or Kevin Durant. That said, there is certainly reason to be excited. Derrick Williams doesn't project as someone who will fill-out a stat-sheet, but plenty of players succeed as scoring role-players. A bigger Granger/Gallinari, Diogu with a 3-point game and some handles, or even a more athletic but lesser rebounding Kevin Love would all be a tremendous help to this squad. Furthermore, Williams' college numbers stand above each of these players' in terms of drawing fouls, 3-point accuracy, and scoring efficiency. There still is a realistic argument that Williams is a truly unique player who has the tools to become an efficient scorer like we have never seen before.
HOWEVER, I have one major concern with optimistically projecting Williams and I just can't seem to shake it.
Gambling on college scoring to predict NBA scoring is a risky venture. Players who rebound, steal, pass, and block shots in college tend to continue their dominance at the next level, but scoring just isn't that easy to predict. Here are the available R^2 values for translating stats from college to the pros (collected from Basketball-Statistics.com and Courtside Analyst):
|
Points: |
0.34 |
|
FGA: |
0.35 |
|
Efg%: |
0.11 |
|
3pnt att: |
0.64 |
|
3pnt%: |
0.79 |
|
FT att: |
0.29 |
|
FT%: |
0.76 |
|
Rebounds: |
0.83 |
|
Assists: |
0.88 |
|
Steals: |
0.6 |
|
Blocks: |
0.93 |
|
TO: |
0.45 |
|
PF: |
0.44 |
Note: All stats are "per minute".
R^2 describes the percentage of variance in one variable that is described by variance in another. In this case, the percentage of variance in NBA statistics that is described by those same stats in the NCAA. High R^2 means that a players' numbers in college are a strong predictor of his numbers in the pros. Low R^2 indicates a skill in which collegiate performance is not a good determinate of pro performance.
As you can see, while the non-scoring stats generally have a high R^2, the predictive power of scoring stats is quite poor. This is especially the case for Williams' bread-and-butter, scoring efficiency. Just over 10% of the variance in NBA scoring efficiency is explained by NCAA scoring efficiency. Compare this to shot-blocking where over 90% of NBA performance is explained by college performance. This is a major problem. For every Durant, Melo, Steph Curry, LMA, Harden, or Deng whose scoring proficiency remains relatively constant across leagues, there is a Beasley, Cousins, Turner, Morrison, or Jeff Green whose performance drastically declines, or a Landry Fields, Westbrook, Iguodala, or Gerald Wallace whose scoring efficiency or volume improves in the NBA. College scoring just isn't a solid predictor of NBA scoring.
I was skeptical that the reported predictive power of NCAA scoring for NBA scoring is really as low as reported. Maybe it is biased by lower draft picks. Maybe there is some confounding variable like age or usage rate. Maybe the weak effect is entirely driven by either bigs or littles... There must be some explanation. This past week I finally got bothered enough to investigate this issue. I ran my own test analysis on a small sample. I looked at the top 10 players drafted in the 2003 to the 2009. I looked at their usage, age, position, scoring rate, and true shooting percentage during their final year in college and their second year in the NBA. Using this sample of 58 players, I ran a simple linear regression (NBA_ts% ~ β1 NCAA_ts% + e) to test how well NCAA true shooting percentage predicts the NBA shooting efficiency:
via i.imgur.com
Not only do my findings support the previous work, but at least for TS%, they are even more pessimistic about predicting across leagues. The R^2 value for my linear model is only 0.01. The collegiate shooting efficiency of the top-10 picks over a seven year period offers no information about those players' NBA shooting efficiency. This problem holds when only looking at front-court players, when only looking at back-court players, when only looking at players with high usage rates or high scoring rates, when only looking at one-and-dones, when only looking at upperclassmen... no matter how much I tried, I simply couldn't find a relationship between collegiate efficiency and NBA efficiency.
This finding should be very concerning for the Timberwolves. Derrick Williams may have had the 2nd highest (below Kyrie Irving) TS% of any top-10 player as far back as I have looked, but that simply doesn't mean anything. He could have a 70 TS% in the NBA, but he could just as likely have a 40 TS%, and more than likely he will end up with something around the mean of 53%. I really want to believe that NBA Williams will be the same class of scorer that NCAA Williams was, but I am having a really hard time convincing myself that this is likely. If anyone has any ideas, bring them forth, but I've just about given up trying to find a way to predict NBA scoring efficiency.
Conclusion:
The Derrick Williams discussion on Canis Hoopus has been awkward. This was the case before the draft, and has only been amplified once he officially became a Timberwolf. He doesn't draw the vitriol of the Flynn pick, the pessimism of the Wes pick, or even the variable but extreme opinions surrounding the Rubio pick. Most commenters agree that Williams was the correct pick at #2. However, all but a few posters seem hesitant to express much optimism about our newest talent. I think I know why.
There are certain assumptions that define how each of us evaluates prospects. Some of us place a premium on usage, while others are more interested in efficiency. Some of us value scoring as the key attribute of a star player, while others place relatively equal weight on all aspects of the game. Some of us project players based on athleticism, scouting hype, personality, and memorable displays of awesomeness, while others close their eyes and focus on predictions generated by statistical models. Each evaluator is unique, but in general you can predict where someone falls on each of these distinctions from where he falls on another. People who value high usage players tend to covet scoring and impressive athletic displays as well. People with an obsession for predictive models tend to also favor efficient scorers who fill-out a stat-sheet. There seems to be a clear distinction between those who view Kobe and Melo as 5-star players and can't wait for John Wall to explode, and those who would rather have Kevin Love and Andre Iguodala and are eager for the age of Kenneth Faried.
Derrick Williams falls into a sort of "uncanny valley" between the ideals of these two perspectives. He is a low usage efficient scorer whose only significant NBA skill is putting the ball in the hoop. He was an excellent college player according to statistical metrics, but only in areas that statistical analysis shows do not consistently translate to the NBA. Physically, I still haven't decided if he is a large and athletic match-up problem, or a too-small/too-slow tweener, but we can all agree that he "says the right things" and is a dedicated worker. Williams is everything Love-ites want as a scorer, but lacks the rounded game needed to embrace him as a star. Williams has the skills to be the leading scorer Kobe-ites know this team needs, but his low usage is inconsistent with someone who will "put the team on his back" and win a championship. No matter how you tend to evaluate players, Williams is at once exciting and pedestrian. I honestly started this post with the goal of finding reasons to get really excited about Williams, but I simply can't find a good argument in that vein. I am still hopeful, and don't want anyone to take this as a "bust guarantee", but the numbers are not as kind as they could be.
Sorry for the downer. Please prove me wrong.
198 comments
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14 recs |
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Comments
Great post
I’m certainly not savvy enough with statistics to ease any of your concerns. Looks like you’ve done some good digging here.
I think the #1 reason why I have had a hard time embracing Williams-mania is because he is a PF or SF/PF on a team positively brimming with guys who are a PF or SF/PF. It also dampens excitement when the two most talented players last year, and perhaps the best bench player, were in this PF-ish group.
If Williams had similar scoring-only abilities, but he was a 6’6" prototypical shooting guard, I think fans would be a bit more excited. And that is certainly not Williams’s fault. When you correctly draft based on “best available”, there is going to be potential roster imbalance. It is up to Kahn/RJ to resolve this, and I’m surprised they have not made moves in this direction already.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
they haven't fixed it yet
because no one trades prototype SGs or SFs unless they have to. Jordan and Pipen forever changed how those players are viewed. Having that adaptability on the perimeter makes your team more difficult to knock off in the postseason…which is what it’s all about.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 14, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions
ALLS I KNOW IS THAT
DWillDestroyah is a str8 BALLER who will throw down Alley Oobios for DA MONSTA jams just like he did on Kyle Singler Move!
smh.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
PD: I think your account has been hacked :)
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 14, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions
I think you may be right
but I’m letting it go because the hacker’s comments are more useful than mine.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
LOL
Thats me for sure.
I call it “beer spillability”. He has it. Next question.
by fanslaststand on Dec 14, 2011 7:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Read every word.
Good stuff, all around. Interesting comparisons, and I’m feeling pretty much the same way you are.
I’d be curious to see a poll/breakdown on this site about “those who view Kobe and Melo as 5-star players and can’t wait for John Wall to explode”, and “those who would rather have Kevin Love and Andre Iguodala and are eager for the age of Kenneth Faried.”
I definitely would rather have Kevin Love and Andre Iguodala and are eager for the age of Kenneth Faried. :) Well said.
Oh, and awesome post.
I would be both surprised and gratified if this level of analysis were being conducted in the Wolves front office.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
I have actually obtained
a secret copy of the Wolves draft report on Wes…
X Long
X Athletic
X Able to dunk Rubio “alley oop” passes
X Able to tolerate Kurt’s coaching without resorting to physical violence (see Cousins’ report)
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 14, 2011 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
can you imagine what would have happened
had we drafted Cousins? I think Rambis would be dead right now…or at least whatever the modern version of being close-lined is.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 14, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
I think that would have been a win win.
by Tollysnipes on Dec 14, 2011 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
addition by subtraction, right?
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 14, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
Nice
it does make one wonder though…if we had drafted Cousins would that have affected whether or not Adelman was interested enough to take the position? hmmm… I wonder if that would have made any difference.
Rubio + DWilliams + Adelman = suck it Clippergeddon
This is also
an excellent point.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
Adelman did well with a disgruntled Webber.
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Dec 14, 2011 7:05 PM CST up reply actions
And Jim Jackson
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Dec 14, 2011 7:06 PM CST up reply actions
And Bonzi Wells
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Dec 14, 2011 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
And Ron Artest
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Dec 14, 2011 7:08 PM CST up reply actions
Dude has suffered enough.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 14, 2011 7:18 PM CST up reply actions
FWIW
The Rockets really,really wanted Cousins. And that was before the split w/Adelman and Rick was having a bigger voice in player transactions.
As to the main discussion,Williams sounds an awful lot like Kevin Martin.
A very efficient scorer because of ability to draw fouls and not much else on a traditional box score. However,for all of Martin’s black-hole rep,he actually is a very decisive player w/the ball. If he doesn’t see an immediate edge-or the quick opportunity to create one-he immediately passes the ball. He’s not creating any assists,but the ball is not sticking,keeping the offense flowing.
This ability to assess and shoot or pass quickly is a major plus in keeping an offense flowing-right up to crunch time,where it all falls apart. At that point,when Martin has to create a shot,it’s very cringe-worthy as he forces up the most pathetic shots off awkward drives hoping he’ll get bailed out by the ref.
In the “Adelman” system 2s and 3s are pretty interchangeable.
If Williams has the ability to score w/in the flow of the game,and score regularly,I’d expect him to thrive in a Martin-ish role,where in another system where he’s expected to constantly create his own shots he’d struggle.
Good stuff, and much of the hesitancy around him
involves the pretty simple math of ‘consensus #2 pick’ + ‘bad fit’ that a lot of us did and came to the conclusion that moving the pick for an asset and a pick a few spots down was the right move.
That’s leaving out those of us who worried about his transition in general (as opposed to fit on our team) to an nba player worth the #2 pick (as your analysis also suggests). I’m worried about it/him, but I’m putting an awful lot of faith in Adelman to figure these things out and get them right.
Indeed--your writing is interesting and thus means you are unemployed
Take this man’s advice, he’s a Doctor of some sort.
by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Dec 14, 2011 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
I'm sayin
Anyone with the time to write a statistical thesis on the potentiality of an athlete just has too much free time. Same with those of you that actually read and spend mental processing on this intense stats stuff just need to read a dang book, man. News flash: you’re not professional NBA scouts. How ‘bout we just watch ’em play and then be like, OK he’s good or OK he sucks. (Cue someone saying something clever about my screenname)
Gawsh I don’t even know why I bother to offer a rebuttle on an internet forum, peace out. A man’s got shit to do
...
A man’s got shit to do
Says Dr. Defecate.
by vjl110 on Dec 14, 2011 6:53 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Your article was very good
but this rebuttal won the thread.
And by very good
I really mean it. Very highly appreciated, the work you put into these posts is fantastic. Very seriously fantastic. Numbers work always impeccable, everything always sourced, you put most of the big sites to shame with how well you do these.
Get a job.. defecate had shit to do after the rebuttal.. He's some sort of doctor..
This thread is entertaining me so much, i have to re evaluate my sense of humor.
I really love when people use the argument...
…that “you’ve got too much time on your hands” or “get a life.” In my experience, the ones who say “get a life” are usually very uninteresting people. This is their way of saying watch more tv! or drink more! or take more naps! Repeat something I’ve heard, it makes me more comfortable! If you have the free time to bash the use of someone else’s free time, then you are the one with too much time on your hands. This is a well written article that actually attempts to arrive at some conclusions. If you have a hard time relating to being good at something and liking to do that thing, that’s too bad. But don’t bash him because of it, respond to the content of what he wrote.
Actually, now that I think about it, I’m going to adopt the following credo: I am now going to just watch ‘em play and then be like, OK he’s good or OK he sucks. I mean, why bother ever considering anything?
by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Dec 14, 2011 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
WTF
Is wrong with you?
"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!
by caseycheesecake on Dec 14, 2011 7:10 PM CST up reply actions
Simple trolling, isn't it?
Go to a site that’s interested in X. Post something implying that interest in X is a sign that you’re a loser. Trolling.
"Opinion ...a confession."
If all you strive to contribute is
“OK he’s good” or “OK he sucks” then why would you even bother to create a username?
Great stuff
I was particularly glad to see that you did some independent work on the relationship between college and pro scoring efficiency. It might be kind of fun to try adding a (highly subjective) “knucklehead” dummy to that regression and see if that cleans things up at all. I doubt it would, but I hold out some hope (without a shred of evidence) that Williams will succeed partly because his head seems to be screwed on straight.
What if we put draft position in the model?
The significance of the draft position itself, after taking into account scoring, rebounding, etc., should be “intangibles” (BBIQ, knuckleheadedness, etc) or at least perceived intangibles.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Dec 14, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
It might be interesting to see if it does anything,
but the current model doesn’t include any of those other factors.
I tried controlling for draft position...
but it didn’t help.
I might try throwing together a “knucklehead” variable, but that is no easy thing to do without introducing bias.
Yeah, it might be interesting to just examine the residuals
and see whether you can tell any kind of story about them (you’ve probably done that already). Labor economist powers activate!!
What other variables have you tried/are available?
An R2 of around 0.3 isn’t actually that bad when you consider how complex scoring is. It depends so many other things, where it could be argued rebounding is a function of far fewer components. There’s so many different ways to score, and really only one or two ways to rebound or block shots.
by MasimbaEgypt on Dec 14, 2011 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
I did a football draft position study on QB's
That was cool, but a lot of things like conference strength and strength of the draft come into play. Ultimately the head coach’s prior success was the most significant variable. Alas, that was football, this is not.
In the alternate universe in which Harrison Barnes and Perry Jones declared, Williams might have been the 4th pick while being the exact same player. When talking about the NBA draft with only 60 positions a 2 spot swing is dramatic. Plus even if those two had declared, the draft would have been weak.
I would love to see a study done using “knucklehead” or even just the word “dummy” as a dummy variable. It’d be subjective as hell, but I’d enjoy it.
Its more of an art than science at a certain point any way....
The meaty parts of multiple regression are often decided arbitrarily or based on best guesses (i.e. choosing between which correlated variables to include in a model). If someone makes up a knucklehead index and explains it well, I’d listen.
by MasimbaEgypt on Dec 14, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
what about a top 2 pick dummy?
That has to explain something.
You could interact scoring efficiency with a top 2 pick dummy.
(or top N pick dummy, where N is some usefully defined number)
Too hot to handle, too cold to hold
They're called the Ghostbusters and they're in control
too many teams reach on potential and it has to throw off the correlation
They haven’t invented a stat yet that allows you to summarize WHY a play scores effeciently. Right now the categories show you where they score efficiently but until we break that down by the reason you can’t truly project it.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 14, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions
Re: Knuckleheads
Coach K being interviewed on Charlie Rose about his Olympic team.
Q. What do all those great players have in common?
A. They are all really, really smart.
by fanslaststand on Dec 14, 2011 7:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
+3 inches too
And in all honesty….I think that could be a very good player
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Especially
on a rookie contract.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
Yesh
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Yes
Now there is an interesting comparison. Maggete period. Not really a better shot, but a few inches taller, a little more of an above the rim type player than Mags but a very intriguing comparison. Like it.
I reeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaalllly like the Danny Granger comp
I feel like he is more athletic than Granger (or maybe just sans the injuries) though
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Nothing wrong with the conclusion of "I don't know"
Actually kind of refreshing.
by bustaone on Dec 14, 2011 2:42 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Honesty about what we don't know is always at least a mild surprise.
The penultimate “uncanny valley” paragraph is about as well-put as anything on this site. (Pretty high praise, actually.) Just excellent, that.
It catches my gut feeling about the pick so well…. Somehow we’re flat-footed about Williams, in a few ways all at once. Oh well: When you face the Gordian knot, you need to cut through the thing. Let’s play some games.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Jeez, you bothered to capitalize your second sentence? Get a second job! ;-)
The internet: Where any sign of thoughtfulness or intelligence is a badge of shame.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Nope.
Republicans Trolls exist in real life, too.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 15, 2011 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
Hey, take it easy on the greedy, soulless, monsters . . .
. . . in reference to republicans trolls, of course.
"Only God is an expert, Ernie."
But don't you know?
they’re rich because God has shown them favor for being so righteous; while all the rest of us, clearly, have inherited the sins of our fathers since we weren’t born rich.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 15, 2011 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
Reading your conclusion section
Could it be a fair point that some people, like myself view the building process of a team as a universal process?
I completely understand the need for stat-geek type players, KLove’s, Curry’s, Andre Iggy’s…like….yes I would prefer a starting five to have a minimum of 2-3 of these types of players.
But I truly feel like having that guy that can just score points, that might not look quite as good using deeper stats as he does using very raw ppg/fg% stats is still an asset that a championship team probably should have. I think 1 volume scorer is a very essential component to a contending team. There are exceptions….but coming from a guy who would classify himself as a role player, basektball is a lot easier to play when you have someone on your team who you can count on to get a tough shot off.
I think Williams has that in him, as does Beasley…I’m hoping one of the two turn out.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Like, if we could some how get a team that was:
C-Marc Gasol
PF-Kevin Love
SG-James Harden
PG-Steph Curry (hoping Rubio is the “efficient” type pg, but untill he proves it I’ll use curry)
Would a Beasley or Williams really be that bad to stick in there as the SF?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I've always been curious
to see what would happen if a team threw together the 5 most efficient guys possible. Efficiency is so related to low usage that it would take really talented players to maintain that efficiency when their usage is forced up. I think the end result would be one player ending up as the statistical “scapegoat” that would have to force shots anyways. Might as well be Williams or Beasley.
Excellent points
Stats never pick up the amount of heart a guy has either. So we shall see what Williams and Rubio have “under the hood” very soon.
The thing I may like MOST about Williams
is his perceived work-ethic and the fact that he seems to play with a chip on his shoulders….It generally feels like in sports (football maybe more so than others) the players who play like they are always disrespected seem to be the ones that are motivated to keep working and get better
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 14, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
True, as long as there is validity to those thoughts
We can name several Twolves who played with chips on their shoulders that were not actually visible to others. Not a good thing.
Totally
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Awesome Post
I have to admit I like Dwill, but would not mind to see him go in a trade netting a very good player.
More variables
Help?: IQ, drug usage, work ethic, heart. chip size
Hurt?: combine results
My point, of course, is that the things that led Williams to unexpected success in college might lead to success in the pros. Perhaps take these players drafted 1-10 and put Rivals rank in the equation. Those who overcame more to get drafted so high might also be able to succeed better in the NBA.
You can't dust for vomit.
I think one thing that we need to remember is that no one saw this guy coming last year
Then he exploded into a great prospect. I think he has more room to grow. I like the Taller Paul Pierce/ Danny Granger comp
Pek apologist
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 14, 2011 3:05 PM CST reply actions
I've always wondered why Paul Pierce hasn't been thrown around as a comp
and a reason for optimism as to why Williams might be able to defend 3s.
There isn’t a chance in hell Paul Pierce has ever been more athletic than Williams
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Is it cause it seems premature to compare a guy to a HOFer?
That would be legit enough for me if that is the reason
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Williams isn't in the same league as Pierce
in terms of ball-handling and creating separation. If you’re talking defensively, I’m not sure. I doubt Williams is as quick laterally as Pierce is.
But it's not like Pierce was Pierce right out of the gate though
?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Pierce was a great athlete in college
He is bigger now, and has always been a little bigger for the perimeter, but he was a lot quicker when he was younger. He is far too good a ball handler to compare to Williams, but in terms of where he makes his shots it’s not a bad comparison. I still think if Williams is to hit his upside he is going to have to be kind of a cross between Granger and Jamal Mashburn. And Pierce was pretty much the best player on the Celtics right away, he was Pierce right out of the gate. Check his numbers as a rookie, the two steals and 1 block average is what separates young Pierce from young Williams (and 3 inches in Williams’ favor, and ball handling in Pierce’s favor). Other than where they like to shoot and body shape, I’m not a big fan of the Pierce comparison I suppose.
by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Dec 14, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Cool
I guess I would have assumed it took Pierce a few years
Defensively, Paul Pierce has been one of the least athletic forwards in the NBA the past 5 years and yet has been one of the best defensive 3’s.
I by no means am guaranteeing Williams CAN defend three’s, but I do believe defense has a lot to do with hard work and preperation and guys like Paul, Shane and Artest are all much less athletic than Williams….so if Williams can become the students that they were I don’t see why he couldn’t become at least competent defensively against 3’s
Just one man’s opinion.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Well with Pierce, having a guy like Kevin Garnett behind you helps quite a bit.
by Bad News Wolves on Dec 15, 2011 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
and knowing that he definitely will if you don't play defense
is a good motivator too.
by Krotz the Wall on Dec 15, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
Waste of time
With all due respect, it’s all conjecture until the ball is throw in the air for the tip off.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
But he said "with all due respect"
That makes everything ok.
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 14, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Ah, the phrase that never fails
to be followed by something disrespectful (sometimes even preceded too!).
DerrickRickRicky
by BrettAhlgren on Dec 14, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
It's waaay to early
with all due respect, it’s waaay to early to be cynical.
Peace Out!
Dingus Kahn, it's over
apparently it's also way too early to be analytical
Too hot to handle, too cold to hold
They're called the Ghostbusters and they're in control
by littleboxes on Dec 14, 2011 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No.
It’s waaay to early.
Which I think means something completely different.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Dec 14, 2011 4:39 PM CST up reply actions
Yep, it's right up there with
“I don’t mean this to sound racist, but…”
and
“I hope you don’t take this offensively, but…”
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
or
“Don’t take this the wrong way, but…”
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 14, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
And
“Bless their little hearts” at the end of it.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
It's all pleasant banter...
until we lose game #50…
With all due respect, you guys have thin skins when the team loses… bless your little hearts
by midlife crisis on Dec 15, 2011 4:41 AM CST up reply actions
you also forgot "sir"
if you first call someone sir, you can then tell them to (e.g.) drop dead
by backtothebasket on Dec 15, 2011 7:14 AM CST up reply actions
Before he even touches the ball....at that moment.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
That's going to be an exciting tip-off.
by LoveTo on Dec 14, 2011 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
place your bets
Very first tip off will be Darko to Rubio who immediately throws a no-look halfcourt pass behind his back while singing Feliz Navidad straight to Williams who had already jumped from half-court at the tip off and is now beginning to descend around the hoop for a thunderous slam dunk beginning to a monumental year in Wolves Basketball. It’s gonna happen — I can feel it.
by monkeywolf on Dec 14, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
remember when Darko scored for the opposing team on a jump ball tip?
Hilarious.
Too hot to handle, too cold to hold
They're called the Ghostbusters and they're in control
AND WE WON THE GAME!
I was there it was funny but he also made up for it with a sweet behind the back dribbling and then the finish. He actually had a good game if I remember right.
Pek apologist
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 14, 2011 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
Pregame or postgame
Maybe Rubio, Darko, and Beas could sing Feliz Navidad together. Remember the SNL Tarzan, Tonto, Frankenstein skits? Was it Tonto? Hopefully your memory is better than mine.
by pastyearsears on Dec 14, 2011 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
It was Tonto.
Those were funny. Some of the last funny moments of SNL.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 14, 2011 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
Phil Hartman's
Frankenstein cracked me up. Pek could do it but it would probably give the children nightmares.
by pastyearsears on Dec 14, 2011 7:28 PM CST up reply actions
Hartman's everything was great.
Hard to believe his wife killed him thirteen years ago.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 14, 2011 7:42 PM CST up reply actions
Hartman helping out a prospective comic:
Back in 1997, aged 19, then-aspiring comedian Mike Scott sent a letter to one of his biggest influences — the late, great, Phil Hartman — along with a selection of his amateur comedy sketches on an audio tape. The letter spoke at length of his hopes and dreams, and politely sought any advice Hartman was able to give. Four months later the following handwritten reply arrived at Mike’s door, complete with invaluable, honest, constructive criticism; advice that he immediately took on board. Says Mike:
This meant the world to me. A man that was THAT busy at the time (doing Newsradio, The Simpsons, commercials, films, and God-knows-what-else) took the time out to not only respond to my letter, but listen to the tape I sent him. It wasn’t lost on me, even at that age.
Good guy.
"Opinion ...a confession."
That's a thoughtful letter.
How much easier would it have been for him to respond with “Hey, keep working at it. You’re doing great.”? He still would have come across as a “star” who cares enough to respond.
He always seemed like a good guy, and I’m glad there’s evidence to support that.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 15, 2011 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
That Caveman, Joe Rogan, even got a little upset remembering him on Opie and Anthony
He’s got the respect of many comedians who worked with him.
RIP Patrice O’Neal
"Only God is an expert, Ernie."
Heh--
Yes, I’m definitely going to be there for The Exciting Tip Off. Then, like a true Minnesota sports fan, I am going to immediately depart so that I can “beat traffic.”
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
by PoorDick on Dec 14, 2011 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for This
I agree that Williams won’t be a superstar, but I suspect that the reason that scoring efficiency likely doesn’t carry over in many cases is that most of the best prospects have major physical advantages over their competition. They are too big, too fast, etc., Take away those advantages and the question becomes do they have the craft and skill to score?
Williams does not strike me as a guy who has ever succeeded solely by physically dominating the competition. Rather, he is a fundamentally solid basketball player who poses a matchup problem whenever he is on the floor. In the NBA, he’ll be too quick for most 4s and too big for most 3s. His long range shooting will be a particular advantage at the 4. The guy he reminds me of most is Antawn Jamison. I’d be thrilled with that or a David West scenario in such a weak draft.
I think Tawn better than West cause of Jamison's ability to play the 3 early in his career
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Coming from a Williams optimist mind you
If you don’t think DW can play three that’s a different story
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I've never understood the Jamison comparison
Jamison plays a game with no jumping ability and scores with a wierd floater. Not much of a banger.
D Will is a high flyer who can bang inside and also step out and hit the three.
I still think Blake Griffin is the most comparable player – at least from a build and jumping out of gym standpoint. Williams isn’t quite as explosive as Blake, but he has a much better outside shot.
if DWilliams turns into some sort of version of Blake Griffin
I will have many pants that will need the crap cleaned out of them.
Rubio + DWilliams + Adelman = suck it Clippergeddon
I will be so happy
that I will crap in other people’s pants.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
by PoorDick on Dec 14, 2011 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Haha!
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 14, 2011 5:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
fabulous
I think these two guys could take their act on the road
by pastyearsears on Dec 14, 2011 7:09 PM CST up reply actions
good points
Williams has great footwork, strong handle, and knows how to draw contact and get the ball off. As long as he keeps his head in the game and stays aggressive, I think he’ll progress nicely. If he defers too much to Beas, Love and I have no idea who else to score, that could be a problem.
Given the frequency
With which Adelman uses the word aggressive I don’t think those who defer will see much playing time.
by pastyearsears on Dec 14, 2011 7:14 PM CST up reply actions
No.
But there’s now nothing I want to see more.
Live And Stupid From England
by JonesTheCat on Dec 15, 2011 7:58 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Very interesting read as usual
I wonder if it would help to do the process backwards a bit. Maybe by looking at your pool and the players who’s TS% had a R^2 above say 0.5 and look for similarities in team roles, playing time, knucklehead factor, etc. that might help the predictive quality. May be similar to what others are suggesting. I’m always curious as to the effect off/def systems and how the team uses these players has on scoring efficiency among other stats.
by Ryno78 on Dec 14, 2011 3:28 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
Excellent post
that obviously took a lot of work to put together. Thanks for doing this, yet again.
D-Thrill is a tough one to peg. For starters, let’s just hope he doesn’t have the Donyell Marshall/Wesley Johnson deer-in-headlights look about him. Adelman’s “Derrick struggled that first day” kind of had me worried since he was praising everyone else.
I think it's quite normal
that he struggles. He may spend some time in the D-League. That means absolutely nothing. Adelman loves him some D-Leaguers.
In Williams' defense
Adelman didn’t say what he struggled with. He’s a rookie…he might have been struggling to deliver everyone’s lunch on time and wash their socks before practice.
Rubio + DWilliams + Adelman = suck it Clippergeddon
by nodnarb on Dec 14, 2011 4:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That, plus Adelman in Souhan's column saying he thought Rubio would have the easier transition to the NBA...
makes me think Derrick is going to see some sparse minutes for a lot of the season.
And Jerry Z stating in the little bit the media is allowed to see he can't guard B-Easy yet.
Which you could also take as B-Easy has a healthy ankle.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I prefer to look at that as Ricky Rubio will be the
greatest point guard in all of the land. But I suppose your version is more likely.
by Bad News Wolves on Dec 14, 2011 6:38 PM CST up reply actions
I think if he plays the 3
he will definitely have a deer-in-the-headlights look….Less so at the 4. Either way, I was always of the mindset that we needed to trade him for an existing good player to get Love some help. Any proposal involving Gortat was one of my favorites.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 14, 2011 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
Great work, sir, even if I admittedly do not understand every word of it.
I also appreciate your ability to revise your own work and conclusions. That’s impressive.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Agreed Tim
Too often (and I am oft guilty) we decide what we think of players, and then look for evidence to back up our conclusions, rather than just believing what we’re seeing.
by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Dec 14, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
it's why "crap shoot" with "NBA draft" is a cliche.
Great article. Honest and thorough. We just don’t know with Derrick Williams. No player is easy to project. In 2008, KLove was taken after Beasley and Mayo. There’s no telling how the player will react to adversity and the money. Some do better than others.
For all our apprehension with Williams, many Cleveland fans are having second thoughts about taking Irving. Regression analysis only gives us so much. We just have to wait and see. My bias is that the chances are better that time will tell he was the right pick rather than the wrong one.
by righteousindignation on Dec 14, 2011 5:01 PM CST reply actions
David West
In the end, I would like to see him put up David West numbers (he just obviously would more points on the 3 point line and less in the low block)
Great read as always
I was not excited about Williams because he looks to be a Power Forward on defense, our best player is a power forward on defense (especially a slimmed down KLove), and we are about to offer KLove the max as a franchise cornerstone. These two just don’t seem compatible in the sense that Williams isn’t the best use of a valuable asset in surround Love. When you factor Williams non-production during college in highly translatable off the ball stats like rebounds, blocks, and assists, that incompatibly becomes more striking to me.
If Williams isn’t a great long term fit, and if as you stated previously and continue to state he has serious question marks associated with his strengths carrying over to the NBA, isn’t the right time to trade him immediately? He’s the number 2 pick in the draft, on cheap rookie scale contract, and has value. If he plays poorly, his value is immediately diminished. If he plays well, he likely only maintains his current value. Eric Gordon? Even two veteran role players with long term contracts may be preferable than gambling on Williams. Let’s not screw this up and waste another asset.
Derrick Williams was going to Bust...but then he was selected by the Timberwolves!
by Ebomb on Dec 14, 2011 6:56 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
If we are empire building..
.. I see an athletic, low usage, efficient player as a very good player to play alongside klove. In the traditional sense, the remaining player will be some sort of high-usage scorer.
Ray allen (very efficient, low usage), KG (very efficient, low usage for high output), Pierce (high usage scorer) with a facilitator rondo.
Maybe that’s the incorrect formfactor, but my optimism leads me to believe all we really need is a pierce? :-)
This solves
lots of other problems.
If they never play NBA basketball again, then I'll never watch it again.
Gambling on Williams
I’ll give you Eric Gordon or James Harden…any day of the week I will make that deal.
Gambling on Williams is the reason you take him though…is it not? Isn’t the reason you take him because he might just be one of those rare guys that has a nose for the rim and knows how to get the ball in the hole….and guys who can score tons of points and get to the free throw line and do it with relative efficiency are pretty tough to come by?
I think the gamble is why you draft him…It’s not like Melo or Durant were sure to score 25+ there were questions about their offensive games too….sure as hell the guy could bust, but I believe the reason you draft him is the gamble that his scoring will transfer.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 14, 2011 10:00 PM CST up reply actions
No, the time to trade him was pre-draft
Or, I guess draft night. While this is excellent analysis, none of this is new information. Setting aside all predictions on production for the moment, it was clear that Williams was an undersized PF with catch and shoot ability. In that role he is nlikely to be a test fit with Love. While it seems that Ademan’s approach on having Williams forget the SF position opens up the possibility of playing our big 3 forward assets all together with Love at the 5, it’s hard to see Williams as the ideal front court, defensive rim protector to move into that slot. At some point I’m going to go off the the failure to achieve even a modicum of roster balance this off season, but I’m going to let it all play out.
Yes, it's reasonable to argue that all of the Wolves 8 best (least bad?) players are all either 1s or 4s
Rubio, Barea, Ridnour and Love, Beasley, Tolliver, Randolph, and Williams.
That’s a mess. And a defensive catastrophe.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 15, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
fyi...TURN THA-BEET AROUND tshirts in Houston
http://www.gamedaygoods.com/assets/images/thabeet_large.png
That’s as good as it gets.
I would sign Thabeet in a second if I were the Wolves
What downside is there?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 14, 2011 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
if he's that bad he doesn't have to play
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 14, 2011 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah...
just joking, but given that Houston pushing Adelman to give Thabeet PT was rumored to be a major part their fallout, we probably shouldn’t taunt him with the goon.
I did not know that about Adleman. So NM.
I really like the idea of getting the talented rejects….but maybe Adleman does not like that idea as much,
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 14, 2011 10:23 PM CST up reply actions
David is that you?
Pek apologist
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 14, 2011 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
I do not hate the philosohpy
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Adelman on learning he's losing Battier and getting Thabeet...
“…I don’t know what I’m supposed to do with him.”
BTW,there were several reasons Adelman and Houston split,but Thabeet was no-where near one of them.
Nice job,
The o/c portion of my personality (I always maintain it’s subclinical) was very impressed. However (see “With all due respect” above,) I just recently got around to reading Jonah Lehrer’s, How We Decide, and even considering all the computer power applied I think these draft decisions are classic examples of extremely complex problems that turn out no better after exhaustive analysis then if they are decided by emotional intelligence. Which pretty much brings us back to crapshoot. Last year was the first year in a long time that I watched much of the NCAA tournament, I’m a total HS tourney geek. As a Wolves fan I had devoured every mock draft, originals, revisions, updates – everything and they kept predicting Derrick Williams going to Mn. I was anxious to see a number of players and Williams was not one of them, I was a little peeved. The players I wanted to see impressed me not a bit. I came away thinking that of all the players I watched Williams had the best chance of maybe being an elite NBA player. Therefore I assumed there was no way the Wolves would get him. So the seed of my giddy optimism was sown. I know picking players based on March Madness is mad, and some players I’ve wanted ended up smelling like what Poor Dick left in other people’s pants, but my irrational optimism is standing with this emotional intelligence thing.
Performance in NCAA tourney is a dangerous predictive tool
But a great game in the Big East tournament is really all the information you need.
You can't dust for vomit.
I enjoy the fact that good players play well in all-or-nothing situations
Steph Curry, D-Wade, Derek Williams, I like seeing the top prospects play well when the spolight is on them.
However it can’t all be about the tourney.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Wasn't
Tourney performance the method behind McHale’s drafting? I seem to remember that he hated scouting, and only scouted players that played their NCAA tourney games close by. which is why he wanted Foye so bad.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 15, 2011 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
Well yeah, you can't rely on only the tourney.
Just like you can’t rely only on statistical predictability, only an eye test, only a work out
But if he’s a guy who you like as an NBA prospect and he performs will when the lights are low….I can’t imagine that is a bad thing
The issue McHale got into was looking at his track record, Wally Sczerbiak, Randy Foye, Rashad McCants….all players that before the tournament were probably in the twenties for draft picks ended up being selected much higher than that.
I do find it funny, though that Wally ball was actually a pretty good pick and in a very weak draft Randy Foye probably is one of the 10 best players to come out of that draft and is still a compotent basketball player for the Clippers (and hell….if we could get him back he is the exact kind of player we could use to be the 2 guard on this team…..now I’m glad we have Rubio though)
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 15, 2011 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
I'm hoping for the best with D-Dub
I think he’s like Love, in that he will work harder than others to get ahead. A blue collar dude who has talent. Not the most talent, but enough to achieve greatness. Obviously he will be an efficient scorer, which is what I like on teams. I’m hoping he can stick at SF and will develop good ball handling skills in time.
Hoping is the key word, I suppose. He’s far from a longshot, but we need some stars to allign here.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
D-Dub I like it
Pek apologist
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 14, 2011 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
WINNER!!!. D-Dub it is.
Spelled DDub for short
by fanslaststand on Dec 15, 2011 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
I think he's a bit like Anthony Tolliver
but with more athleticism and a bit more length. He is a guy who will be professional and workmanlike and will shoot pretty well, but will be limited because he is undersized at the 4 and not quick enough to defend good 3s. He will get some alley oops with Rubio around and he’ll get his share of putbacks. But, he will have a tough time being consistently effective against better 4s and 3s because his strengths (as demonstrated in college) are limited to shooting and physically overwhelming his defender. He won’t be able to overwhelm all that many pro forwards physically because he is undersized and not quick off the dribble. And, while being a good shooter is certainly a good skill, if that is all you have, you become one-dimensional and relatively easy to defend. That, combined with the fact that he doesn’t rebound or block shots particularly well, will mean he doesn’t have all that much to contribute on either end of the floor.
Good post. A couple thoughts:
1) For scoring it looks like the strongest correlation is for three point percentage. Have you tried pulling the R^2 values for all players who shot over, say, forty percent in college? Because if Williams can make that the key part of his game, it could open up a whole different set of intriguing possibilities.
2) I imagine this would be fantastically difficult to pull off with the inconsistency of the college data set, but has anyone factored in usage rates as another variable in field goal percentage? Based on what we know about usage as it relates to field goal percentage in the NBA, I have to imagine players being asked to take on a different role.
Unfortunately...
I didn’t include 3s in my dataset. However, I did include FTA/FGA and this plot is a good sign for Williams:

I still think the answer to the poor predictive power of TS% lies somewhere in changes in usage and role, but I’m not sure the best way to test it.
I have a suggestion.
reverse engineer it. start byt grouping all the players who’s scoring eff in college had a string correlation to the pros in one group, and all those for whom it did not translate into an other. then look for traits that are similar to all those in one group or the other. see if there are certain traits that when combined with Eff Scoring have a high correlation to the pro’s. if their is a trait in common among most if not all those who’s scoring did translate that is missing in the other group, then we can look at DWill’s college performance and start to get a better idea of weather his scoring eff should also translate or not. the key to finding out will be to looking for common traits. so it is not scoring by itself, but scoring along with x and or y trait that allows the scoring to translate.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Dec 14, 2011 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
I want to do some things of this nature...
especially with different types of scoring and different roes, but I need the data. Much of it is available online, but collecting all the data I want from disparate online sources, and organizing it into a useful database is just too much boring work.
We should start some sort of Hoopus community database stored in a dropbox that people can plug different sources into, organize, and analysis. Who is in? I call “not it” on organizing the thing.
by vjl110 on Dec 15, 2011 7:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Can't we just hire a stats guy?
I’m sure the dumpster behind the Wolves HQ is littered with never-read resumes from MIT grads who begged for a job.
We've got plenty of stats guys.
We need a data entry guy.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Dec 15, 2011 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
I'd really like to put combine measurements into a model, along with data about the college and conference
But, as you said, putting all that into a database would take a ridiculous amount of time, and be really fricking boring.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Dec 15, 2011 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
Top of my head guess
See if there’s a relationship between difference in usage percentage and the difference in true shooting percentage?
This is completely serious
Is it possible the best comp for Williams is simply a poor man’s Lebron?
Is that just something people are afraid to say because even the suggestion of LeBron seems ridiculous…but I mean “poor man’s” is a pretty suggestive term, but I don’t know…it feels like if Williams is going to succeed offensively his game will probably look a reasonable amount like LeBron’s….just on a smaller scale.
Am I on to something or on something?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Subjective not suggestive
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 14, 2011 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
No
LeBron is one of the best defenders and distributors in the league
Pek apologist
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 14, 2011 11:10 PM CST up reply actions
im new here so be gentle.....
why dont we just let dwill and klove fight for (the 4) position in the paint on all offensive possessions……
great article and analysis……read every other word.
by backtothebasket on Dec 15, 2011 7:09 AM CST up reply actions
Because KLove at this point doesn't need to earn anymore minutes
If Williams proves to be a 4 and only a 4 and he’s really that good we’ll worry about it when it happens….but until then KLove is the 4 and there should be no question
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Thus the "poor man's" Lebron
I.e. uses the 3 point threat to open up the lane and because he is physically so much more powerful than the 3’s he will be guarding gets to the line with ease
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
gotcha
Pek apologist
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Dec 15, 2011 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
Does "poor man" mean....
….homeless, disabled vet, missing several appendages, teeth and other parts, suffering from a rheumatic cough, lice, AIDS and syphilis while owing upwards of 100k in back child support?
sure
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 15, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I laughed at this
but I know a lot of poor people and sometimes it means, having a too strong sense of justness and exploitation to take advantage of other people.
by pastyearsears on Dec 15, 2011 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
What concerns me a little
is that through day 6 we have heard nothing from Adelman about what a good player he is going to be. I would have loved to hear Adelman talk about DWill the same way he talks about Malcolm Lee.
Me too
Sounds like DWill has been struggling trying to learn both the SF and PF positions. The SF part has not been going smoothly, so Adelman is going to have him concentrate on the PF position.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 15, 2011 8:26 AM CST up reply actions
From the videos I've seen
the reporters are asking about Malcolm Lee and Rubio more than any other player. I think Adelman only specifically addresses players that the reporters ask about, otherwise he talks about the team in a general sense.
The Get a Job comment needs to be ammended to Give this man a job...
excellent, excellent work.
Final Analysis, DWill projects to be the perfect Timberwolf, a blue chip Enigma.
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on Dec 15, 2011 9:35 AM CST reply actions
I'll be damned
He reminds me of Terry Cummings. Thank you. An equally rich man’s, adjusted for inflation, Terry Cummings.
You can't dust for vomit.
Not Vonteego Cummings?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 15, 2011 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
Not liking the spotlight
Reading quotes after the first preseason game against the Bucks, it gave us some insight on where Derrick is coming from personality-wise. He doesn’t like the spotlight, is happy to fly under the radar while Rubio basks in the spotlight he was seemingly born to occupy.
I found this to be a less-than-ideal attitude for a #2 overall pick, but on this team it may end up complementing our core players better than a prima donna out of the NC Tarheel or Kentucky traditions.
The first game supports what the above article asserts. He’s an efficient scorer and doesn’t need the ball every other possession to be happy. Derrick makes a lot out of what is given to him. More reason for optimism.
by righteousindignation on Dec 20, 2011 2:20 PM CST reply actions

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