2 minutes of fun
Let's call last night the fireworks game. For the first 95% of the action you sat there on your blanket getting eaten up by mosquitoes and dropping crumbs of potato chips on the picnic blanket while getting annoyed by the screaming kid and the parents who are too busy texting to do a damn thing about their yelling monster who are sitting 10 feet behind you. You keep telling yourself, "This should be festive. I have fond memories of the last time I went to one of these things. What in the hell?"
And then, the finale.
Action posted a nice fanshot of the 2 minute finale and you can read it here. There's not a whole lot to read into that 2 minutes of inspired ball other than a) it was about as fun of a 2 minute stretch of basketball Wolves fans have seen since Corey Brewer hit a 3/4 court shot against Houston 2 years ago, b) Kevin Love is good at basketball, c) the Bucks Pulled a Wolves and Britta'd/Ridnour'd their way to a loss, and d) it pretty much made up for the 46 minutes of intensely bad basketball played before the grand finale (and is exactly the type of game your basketball hating friends like to remind you of: "You only need to watch the last 2 minutes!")
The Dirty Mind:
Last night's performance by Malcolm Lee underscored the importance of guard play to the hopes for competitive Wolves basketball. With Ricky Flair and J.J. Barea (still in need of a good wrestling nickname--the tagteam duo needs to be assembled) back in Minny, Our Beloved Puppies took to the court with visions of slop and turnovers. There was little ball movement, minuscule player movement, and small doses of the inside-out action we saw on Saturday with the tagteam at the helm.
In stepped Malcolm Lee. In 24 minutes he put up a 9/5/4 line with 4 turnovers and a +1. He and Anthony Tolliver seemed to be the only bench players who wanted/could contribute. Granted, he turned the ball over too many times (Leave the 1-handed passes to Ricky!) and he has a long way to go in order to be a decent regular backcourt contributor (which will really underscore the awfulness of the Wes pick when he takes over Wes' minutes in January), but for 1/2 of last night's tilt, he approximated modestly competent guard play in a manner no other player in a Wolves uniform could. This is both something to be excited and annoyed about. Excited for Malcolm; annoyed that a 2nd round pick is going to obviously do what a #4 pick obviously cannot.
Guard play is going to make/break any hopes of .400+ ball this year. While the formula still remains Kevin Love + Rick Adelman (competent coaching) + 2 players worth of average-to-above-average production = competent pro ball (.400-.450), getting 1/2 of that 2-players-worth of acceptable production from the tagteam + Ridnour (again, we need a nickname for this thing) is going to, at the very least, make this whole operation seem a bit more smoothly running than the 1/2 of the production that hopefully can come from the frontcourt grouping of Michael Beasley, Derrick Williams, Anthony Randolph, and Wes Johnson. We don't have a whole lot of game time to go on, but I think it's pretty safe to say that Adelman and Co. are going to build this thing around the pick and roll game of their 2 new point guards. If Malcolm Lee can be added to the stable of players that can contribute to 35-48 player minutes of competent guard play/night, that will be amazing.
The Chaos and Disorder:
Long stretches of last night's game caused flashbacks of last season's talent-deprived action. Wes Johnson couldn't produce off the bench, Anthony Randolph turned in a Randolphian performance, Wayne Ellington started, Michael Beasley was up to his old tricks (my favorite was when he took a bad shot and then ran down the court to deliver a bad foul), Nikola Pekovic couldn't shine in his audition to be traded so that Bonzi Wells can be given a roster spot, Derrick Williams is a rookie, and so on and so forth.
This team is still wildly mismatched and short on competent professional basketball players. One of the best things about Rick Adelman is his avoidance of A System and his willingness to roll with the strengths and weaknesses of who he has available. This dynamic should get the Wolves to, at the very least, last year's Pythagorean W/L record percentage. Even more interesting is that the good and close-to-good players that the Wolves do have are all non-traditional and require something in order to be...well, activated. Kevin Love is great but he's like the Gloom Shroom in Plants vs. Zombies. He requires a bean in order to work in the daytime (click the link--I promise it will make sense).
There isn't a non-shroom (again, click on the link) player on this roster. Nobody can be counted on to do it on their own. On some nights where the tagteam is off its game or unavailable, we might be treated to a product that is very similar to last year's squad. At the very least, this should be interesting to watch Adelman plant his lawn with a quilt-work of mismatched plants in the face of a zombie invasion. (Don't forget the Tall Nuts.)
The Rave Un2 the Joy Fantastic:
I don't know about you but I'm not going to sit through this sort of regular season game after the lockout, even if there is an awesome 2 minute finale. I have a bad feeling that the tail ends of back-to-back-to-back affairs are going to be more refundable-worthy than not. If the league and its players owe its fans anything at all this year it is 66 games worth of solid efforts.
This lockout burned me in a bad way and I'm simply not going to deal with the Dog Days of the NBA like I have in years past. I know that this is the pre-season and I don't want my general grumpiness about this particular game to distract from the fact that I am (for me) very optimistic about this year's squad (they have the tools to play .400-.450 ball) However, in terms of the larger NBA picture, I was very close to walking away from the damn thing after the Chris Paul trade nonsense. That lockout was about nothing at all and the fans are the ones who got screwed the most. I'm going to have very little patience for bad efforts and terrible action this year. Maybe last night was simply the result of playing a Scott Skiles-led team that finished last in the league in shooting in 10/11. I'm going to tell myself that this is the case and hope that this type of action doesn't carry over into the regular season.
Misc Singles:
- There are some good fanshots/posts out there right now. Check out the sidebar and don't forget to rec the ones you like. Now that we're back into the swing of an NBA season, I won't have as much space to bump up deserving posts so please make sure to give due attention to the posts that need it the most.
- Kevin Pelton and the good folks over at Basketball Prospectus have put out their yearly Basketball Prospectus guide. You can purchase it here. If you want a sampling of the content, they have put up the player card portion of the Minnesota Timberwolves section. I can't recommend these guides enough. I always get a copy.
- Last night's shot chart was a mid-range abomination on both sides of the action. Again, maybe this is just the result of the Bucks' style of play. Either way, it was also a mind-range abomination. 3s, free throws, shots in the lane. No more open looks from 3 converted into dribbled-into shots from 18 feet. We're looking at you, Mike Beasley.
- Stylistically, I'm glad I'm not a fan of the Bucks. They are terrible to watch. Winninglistically, I like their chances this year if Bogut can stay healthy. They'll struggle to shoot the ball but they've really upgraded the roster with Captain Jack and Dunleavy, and I have high hopes for Tobias Harris.
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Nickname:
“Duo Delicioso”, or Double D for short.
Down in the Valley
by Down in the Valley on Dec 22, 2011 8:14 AM CST reply actions
The road dogg jj barea? (the road dogg jesse james)...
superfly barea? (jimmy “superfly” snukka)
the J? (the rock)
triple name? (triple h)
the spanish fly?
soooo many options
One has to hope that the point guard duo is the bean that activates
but there remains a lot of “if this guy does that and that guy does this and they use the other guy in a particular way…”
I have some optimism too, but I’m very wary that guys will be able to change their games effectively to make this a respectable basketball team. While it’s true that Rambis was a complete disaster when it came to putting players in positions to succeed and using their strengths, it isn’t clear that some of these guys have the strengths we envision for them.
Take Beasley. “If he goes to the basket more instead of taking so many 20 footers…” The problem is that I’m not sure he’s consistently capable of getting to the rim and being effective. Hopefully the presence of ball handlers who are smart will help him, but we’ll have to see how much. And Beasley is just one example.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 8:22 AM CST reply actions
There are a lot of guys...
…with “potential” who are pretty clearly who they are at this point. Beasley, Darko, and Randolph are the first to come to mind with Johnson about to join them (I think he’s joined them already). In order for each of these guys to reach their “potential”, they all have to do something that they’ve never demonstrated themselves to be able to do on a consistent basis (if at all).
And yes, they are amazingly interconnected and reliant on some other guy doing something else.
Beasley
I thought he did a much better job of NOT taking long two point shots. The shot chart indicates he wasn’t effective in the paint… but at least kept trying to get there instead of forcing 20 footers.
by Vandelay Ind. on Dec 22, 2011 8:37 AM CST up reply actions
(There was at least one moment where he had a wide-open three and stepped forward to take the long two.)
"Opinion ...a confession."
Overall
It was clear to me that he was trying to get to the hoop more… which is what everyone seems to be pining for.
by Vandelay Ind. on Dec 22, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
What I'm pining for is effectiveness
“trying” isn’t good enough. Clearly on this roster he’ll get plenty of chances to show he can do it; I just don’t see a lot of evidence that he can.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
I guess we can pine in one hand and shit in the other
As you were sir.
by Vandelay Ind. on Dec 22, 2011 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
Wes Johnson badly needs an infusion of Cap'n Jack's essence.
We’ve seen him with Rubio and Barea, and without. On the floor or on the bench, he’s a non-presence. The guy just doesn’t have the skills or the nature to assert himself on the game.
Last night he played the end of the first quarter and much of the second, all alongside Malcolm Lee, and then sat down for another pleasant session of polite bench cheering.
If you can get value for Wes Johnson right now, you do it.
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Dec 22, 2011 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Wes represents a tough issue
He was drafted to play SF but forced into the 2 slot (rather ineffectively by Rambis) when Beasley fell into the Wolves laps. I am confident that, given time at the 3 and coached by competence, Wes will look a lot better than he has to date.
The concern is that we already have a crowded front court. I think that Wes could raise his value – given the conditions above plus playing with competent PG play. I think Wes will prove to be a good player in the NBA, but don’t know whether he will be able to establish himself with the Wolves.
If you get good value on him in a trade now, I would be in favor. No fire sales, though, because I’m not convinced that Beasley will become the reliable mainstay for which I had hoped. If you could get better value for Beasley, I would trade him instead.
by daaje on Dec 22, 2011 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Twins have charted an algorithm for trading a player at his peak value
They’ve been holding it upside down, but maybe if the Wolves knew this…
You can't dust for vomit.
by twinstalker on Dec 22, 2011 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
Malcolm and Love were the bright spots for me.
It’ll be interesting to see how Adelman incorporates Lee into the rotation. My guess is he’ll eat up Luke’s minutes as opposed to Wes.
I also thought Wes was really productive for the 12 minutes he played: 5pts, 2rbs, a steal, and a block (that got credited to another Wolf). I was pleased with his play. He made a clutch 3 with time winding down. He looks more aggressive on the defensive end and the boards then last year.
Randolph was pressing to hard and it was a nightmare game for him. Could almost say the same for Luke. Beasley had an off night: shot wasn’t falling, he was picking up cheap fouls, and didn’t contribute much at all it seemed.
by Asher14 on Dec 22, 2011 8:23 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
You're pleased with the play of Wes Johnson last night?
That’s a reaction one could have if he’d been a second round pick, maybe. He’s made zero impact on either of the two preseason games. The guy’s noticeable when he gets a conspicuous board, but otherwise he’s invisible. Fading, painfully.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Can you clear something up
When a coach or a fan watches a game are all of our evaluations supposed to have the condition, “he was x number pick” and thus he should be able to “______?”
Is there a point we we no longer look at what pick the person is? How long is that time?
Please let me know so I can evaluate and watch the games properly.
by Rodman99 on Dec 22, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
I get what you are saying, but I think it is relevant
in terms of role and trade value for at least a few years.
The Wolves did not (I hope) draft Wes to be their future backup SF. They wanted a starting caliber wing. He does not appear to be one – so he is not filling the role they intended. Does another team still value him highly enough to do a trade that returns a starting quality wing? If so, I’m game.
In a few years, or after a player is traded the first time, I think the draft stuff rightly fades away mostly.
And the players are 100% not at fault for their draft position and the gap between their perceived and actual talents. I feel bad, for example, that Kwame has had to carry the burden of ‘failed #1 pick’ all these years. It was not his choice.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 22, 2011 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I must be confused
I thought they drafted Wes to be the starting SF. Who was ahead of him?
by daaje on Dec 22, 2011 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
As I mentioned, I think the drafted him with visions of a starting caliber wing
Where wing means SG or SF or a combo guy.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 22, 2011 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
Got it
My recollection was that Wes was slated to start at the 3, but when Beasley fell to the Wolves the mantra quickly changed to something along the lines of how Wes would be a super-long 2.
Great players? Big talents? Force themselves onto the court. Assert themselves when they're there.
"Opinion ...a confession."
I think it still comes back to
Wes is forced to play out of position with a crappy HC – all the while deferring to Love and Beasley.
What about how much of a distributor Luke isn’t (repressing memories of SeaBass and Flynn).
Not against trading Wes, but I see potential.
by daaje on Dec 22, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
At this point I'm looking for other teams that also see potential, as a first choice.
We’ll see by about 10 games into the real ones whether he’s made any kind of step.
Right now, Wes Johnson looks like our candidate to break the second-year curse – mostly by not even making the floor to get injured.
"Opinion ...a confession."
I would also point out
That DMC is still an issue I’m happy we don’t have to deal with, and that Greg Monroe is the only guy the Wolves could’ve taken instead of Wes who’s actually panned out. What a terrible draft 4-15.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Dec 22, 2011 10:24 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I disagree
Paul George has panned out for Indy.
I recall a lot of talk about trading down
so the Wolves could take George and get other assets.
Sigh…
Could have traded Flynn for that Pick and got both
Johnson and George and had the wings locked up in one draft.
by Tollysnipes on Dec 22, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
Could have done a lot of things with that pick.
Choosing Wes outright was probably the last thing on the list.
Why do people say "grow some balls? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding.
It was just incredibly passive of us.
And unironically, he’s a remarkably passive player now too. Funny how that works out.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Unironically
Adjective or adverb? Either way, isn’t this “conicidentally?” :-)
You can't dust for vomit.
by twinstalker on Dec 22, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
I just thought he'd take Cousins
and that reaching for Wes was just a ploy to get more assets. Cousins was way more valuable, and he could have had Wes plus assets if he’d have taken Cousins, and then waited for the offers to come rolling in. Worst case scenario, we’re stuck with Couins.
Why do people say "grow some balls? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding.
Talk about worst case scenerio..
..being stuck with him would have been terrible.
So what should we have done?
Taking Wes was too easy. Hindsight is 20/20, I know, but almost no one thought picking Wes was the best choice. Should have traded down 2 spots, at least.
Why do people say "grow some balls? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding.
taken Monroe?
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 22, 2011 3:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's funny, again, how the big problem with Monroe?
Was supposed to be that his passive nature would prevent his making an NBA impact.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Taking wes was the right move.
It just sucks in retrospect.
Wes was consensus top 5. We took him over demarcus due to character issues. This is fine. It ended up being wrong, but what can you do.
Demarcus is going to JR himself out of the league. Demarcus with any amount of restraint would be an amazing addition to this team, but … well some things don’t change.
What can you do?
You can recognize the problems with choosing him before the draft. A ton of us on this site were very wary of the pick for exactly the reasons behind his disappearing act now.
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Dec 22, 2011 9:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Many of whom were for Cousins
Another guy who hasn’t exactly allayed the concerns about him.
I don't want to reprise this,
but my stance then was: If you don’t feel like you can take Cousins, there are other team who will take that risk. Move down. Taking Wes Johnson is passive.
"Opinion ...a confession."
My memory of the Canis Hoopus argument was this...
Camp 1 — take Cousins or Favors depending on who falls
Camp 2 — Cousins is too risky due to non-basketball issues — take Johnson
Camp 3 — trade up for Turner
Camp 4 — James Anderson, Paul George, Xavier Henry, Wesley Johnson and Aminu are roughly in the same draft tier. Johnson’s age is a huge red flag and overlooked by those projecting him as a top 5 pick. Take Cousins/Favors for yourself or trade down to get more assets while taking one of the many meh wing players.
He’s a wolf now so I think it’s time to let it go in all non Kahn performance evaluation topics, but the many posters were against the pick and following picks in this draft aren’t re-writing history.
Personally I arranged babysitting so I could go to a bar and watch what I thought could be a great draft. I got cautioned for language after the Johnson pick and then dumbfounded the rest of the way. My decision not to buy half season tickets was cemented that night.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Wolves are in the Wes case scenario
Too hot to handle, too cold to hold
They're called the Ghostbusters and they're in control
by littleboxes on Dec 22, 2011 2:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Nah, it could've been worse.
We could’ve taken Willie Warren or something called Magnum Rolle.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Magnum Rolle?
Is that the one with the extra latex…no, forget it – not gonna go there… :)
"Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously."
— Hunter S. Thompson
On one poll
48% of CHer’s said they would take Evan Turner #1 overall, ahead of Wall.
Could have gotten “aggressive” and done that. Did I miss him on the all-rookie 1st or 2nd team?
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
Exxxaacccctly.
Imagine that one, had we gotten the 1 and taken Turner… Ick.
2-15
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
If Wes Johnson hadn't been a high pick last year, would he EVEN BE A TOPIC ON THESE BOARDS?
I submit to you that we wouldn’t even be mentioning his name.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Let's treat him like he was a late-second pick.
Hey, isn’t it great that Wes Johnson made the roster, and gets to play five or six minutes together? Success story!
"Opinion ...a confession."
It's a great way for Wes supporters to move the goal posts for Wes-related discussions
I think Wile Coyote gets it right though. You have to consider his draft position as still possibly a component of his value. It’s a rapidly diminishing component because soon his play in the NBA will greatly outweigh his draft status (if it hasn’t already for most teams), and I think that presses the urgency that some feel about moving Wes for good value now, if we can get it.
by WolvesFan03 on Dec 22, 2011 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
Fair enough point...
… but do you want to be paying Wes Johnson $7 million and change in a few years? I don’t.
Wes is a 3 on a team with 5 players who can play that position
Beasley and Williams need to get PT and they are better and more talented
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I'll be honest
I can only think of one…and he’s a converted PF. Beasley is an okay SF, overall. I just can’t think of anyone else who resembles a three at all (I’m probably missing someone obvious, so forgive me).
You can't dust for vomit.
by twinstalker on Dec 22, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's easy to forget Martell
since he’s inactive.
Inactive due to a ruined back.
He keeps getting microdiscectomys.
Problem with that procedure is that it can only be done about 2 times per vertebrae due to the risk of scar tissue buildup defeating the entire purpose.
The fact it didn’t work the first time is a very bad indicator. If this time doesn’t work, the next and final option is a spinal fusion… And that is the career ender.
(all from experience, and I hope nobody who reads this has to go through the same)
(Having spent the last day flat in bed with a bad back, I will second that hope of yours.)
"Opinion ...a confession."
Zero impact in two preseason games?
Disagree. Game 1 he struggled with his shot, but 8 boards is not zero impact. Give the man some credit. If you’re expecting Wes, as a #4 pick, to be Kobe-lite than yeah you’re going to be severely disappointed – every single night. Keeping in mind his deficiences, what I want to see from him if he’s going to get minutes at the 2 is to be an athletic presence defensively and on the boards and find his nitch in the offense coming off screens, getting active in transition, and cutting to the hoop. In the preseason, what I am looking for is to see him make an impact in the game in the non-scoring areas. And he showed that to me. Last night he played a 12 minutes stretch and the night was over. 5 pts, 2rbs, 1 stl, and 1 blk. And this on a night where our offense looked like garbage most of the night, and he is a player that plays within the offense. So, I retiterate, I was not disappointed in the least about his play in those 12 minutes. Is he our SG of the future? Probably not. But that’s not what I was commenting about. And as a reminder…it’s the PRESEASON.
by Asher14 on Dec 22, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Essentially we've lowered the bar to "I hope he can earn minutes."
Apparently that will satisfy the audience. What you’re describing can be gotten in, to use the same old example that’s convenient because of recent Wolves experience….
what I want to see from him if he’s going to get minutes at the 2 is to be an athletic presence defensively and on the boards and find his nitch in the offense coming off screens, getting active in transition, and cutting to the hoop.
Ladies and gentlemen, Rodney Carney!
In the preseason, what I am looking for is to see him make an impact in the game in the non-scoring areas.
Seriously. What you’re looking for is someone to fill the line? You aren’t looking for Wes Johnson. And I don’t even buy that. What we’re looking for from Wes is for him to do the things wings do – including stuff like scoring, running the wing on the break and dunking, and all that. If he’d done that, especially alongside Rubio, that would be a successful preseason for him.
If anything, the fact that this is the preseason should make it more possible for Johnson to get out there and see what he can do. This is the time when teams see what John Leuer can do, and Malcolm Lee. Johnson’s faded under basically every possible circumstance so far in his career. Hasn’t he? And he’s been a non-presence in these two games.
What a good preseason game looks like from your young talent can vary, of course. But “stays on the floor and is productive” is basically the description, and that’s not what Wes Johnson’s done.
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Dec 22, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Here's the question and answer
Can the Wolves find a guy in the D-League who they pay half as much with fewer guaranteed years that will produce like Wes Johnson? The answer is yes!
Too hot to handle, too cold to hold
They're called the Ghostbusters and they're in control
by littleboxes on Dec 22, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
Why bother with the D-League
when we already have Ellington under contract? :)
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions
A comparison of their age-23 seasons
Is here. Wes has a better AST%, so that’s nice.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
"if he's going to get minutes at the 2"
And…“I hope he can earn some minutes” means the same thing to you? They aren’t remotely the same.
That’s some convenient rephrasing of someone’s words to help make your point.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This wasn't about one phrasing of anything.
From every angle, multiple posters are basically at this point on Wes Johnson. If we want to be optimistic we lower expectations to a silly extent.
This response on your part is purely tactical rhetoric. Phrasings? Let’s see Wes Johnson make the talk moot by playing a good game, and staking out a claim on playing time with this team.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Yes phrasings
You put quotes around a statement that doesn’t resemble anything Asher or anyone else said, then build your argument on it. NO ONE said that.
Hyperbole? Wes has faded at every point in his career. What makes you even write something like that? Yes, his whole dysfunctional one year career under a dysfunctional coach in a dysfunctional offense, with two point guards who didn’t facilitate.
That’s a bit desperate, eh? You’ve made about 20-30 negative Wes comments on this thread alone. You seem obsessed.
He’s played 40 minutes of preseason basketball. It’s taken you just that long to regurgitate your agenda and bring us all to the conclusion that his season is lost.
3-9 shooting, 10 rebounds, a few assists, a couple steals and a block.
What? 2 of the team’s 40 turnovers?
There he goes. Once again he’s faded.
This entire thread couldn’t be more amusing. People aren’t hopeful or speculative. They know!
I read from others Wes has never shown any inclination that he can rebound.
Just the almost 9 per game he averaged as a senior?
You say on one hand Wes can’t even show anything in two preseason games then argue with a Beasely supported that he can’t make an argument for Beast based on two preseason games. Help me. Which is it?
Frankly I find it absurd that you, me or anyone else can project what these guys will do with this coach in different roles after two garbage games.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 9:48 PM CST up reply actions
Frankly I find it absurd that you, me or anyone else can project what these guys will do with this coach in different roles after two garbage games.
He’s feeling his way right now and has a great coach. He’ll be fine.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
Hey Dan good try again
These two quotes have nothing to do with each other.
I’m not basing anything on what I saw or didn’t see in two preseason games. Nothing.
There is no relationship between the two statements.
Think through this stuff before you take your little potshots.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
I have no dog in this fight,
but you’re spinning a bit out of control on this one, TD.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 22, 2011 10:19 PM CST up reply actions
Of course I am
Feral has been on a day long obsessive rant and I’m spinning out of control.
Dan chooses to ignore every point I make (and this is typical) but then tries to play gotcha with me or respond sarcastically.
Whatever.
Address the issues don’t just play gotcha for your buddies.
Feral said Wes played poorly in summer ball. He strained his hamstring and didn’t play summer ball. Oops.
Can we just say anything we want and it’s blindly supported? It’s why I basically ignored this garbage all day. I know the second I call Feral out on inaccuracies the wagons will be circled.
And yes CJ you do have a dog in the fight.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
My buddies?
I don’t know these people. They have written things I admire (as have you), but in this back-and-forth they’re working with reason and you’re working with emotion.
Please don’t go pendulum55 on us.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 22, 2011 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
Didn't that weekend mean anything to you??!!??
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 10:39 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sorry, Mad Dan.
You Wisconsinites all look the same. You, Eric, PD.
Especially PD. He all looks the same.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 22, 2011 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
First I wasn't referring to you. Sry. You was him not you.
I have an issue with people who put quotes around words that weren’t said and attribute those to others. I have an issue with people trying to play gotcha to deflect an argument for their pals instead of genuinely addressing the argument.
And if you think there isn’t a buddy system here you are being disingenuous.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 10:47 PM CST up reply actions
Care to detail the "buddy system" you perceive?
There are people who agree with each other fairly regularly, but I wouldn’t call it a “system.” People here seem pretty capable of independent thought.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 22, 2011 10:50 PM CST up reply actions
I was told to use the buddy system at swimming lessons as a youngster. I’ve used it in every aspect of my life ever since, including (perhaps especially) Canis Hoopus.
That's because
you were taught to swim in pudding.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 23, 2011 1:25 AM CST up reply actions
Would *anyone* reading my post have thought I was quoting the previous poster? No.
This is nothing but an empty rhetorical tactic on your part. Look at the post you’re saying is a faked-up misquote. It’s not one. And if anyone was in any doubt, the post I’m responding to was right above that.
"Opinion ...a confession."
I've made a lot of points about Wes
actually supported by facts. On your side are the, what two or three months of good basketball he played in your backyard before he got hurt, and that he’s a really good guy (which I don’t doubt). You don’t want to talk about his two seasons of mediocre play at Iowa State or his truly bad first full year in the NBA — a year that was so bad that if you look at the evidence (there I go again with crazy facts), you’ll see that rookies his age who play that poorly very rarely become decent players.
But you get to be sure that he’ll be fine, and everyone else is either too pessimistic or crazy. OK.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 10:39 PM CST up reply actions
I'm happy to discuss all of these issues
But I’m not throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I haven’t called anyone crazy and I’ve consistently stated time will decide if I’m right or wrong or if you or anyone else is.
I’m also forthcoming about his weaknesses.
But I’m not willing to conclude his fate based on that fiasco of a coaching job last year and Rambis’s insistance not just to force him into a role where he can’t excell but which actually highlights his weaknesses.
So I view this as a clean slate for Wes and several players. You’ve gone from a historically bad coach to a historically great coach. Let’s see what happens before writing him off after two non-distinct preseason games.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
It's funny how all this started
by me stating that Wes didn’t play all that bad in the 2nd preseason game.
And you were absolutely right.
But somehow it becomes Wes getting banadhed to the bench to cheerlead…,,,oh, with a sprained ankle. Did we forget to “report” that?
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 23, 2011 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
Banished
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 23, 2011 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
Actually,
congratulations on entering the word “banadhed” to the lexicon.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
It looked right at first...
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 23, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
You really got
banadhed on that one.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
He played so well, his coach gave him 11 1/2 minutes in the first half on Wednesday.
He sat in a “Minnesota Basketball” t-shirt at the end. You could see him cheering from the bench.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Apparently he tweaked his ankle
and that’s why he didn’t play the second half — Pekovic strained his groin.
I was kinda of wondering as I thought both earned more minutes.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Wes tweaked his ankle
on offense when he accidentally set foot in the lane.
Actually, he was trying to help “D” for Williams on a long lob from Jennings. It was Williams’ fault for not getting back.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
Do you know he sprained his ankle?
Do your research. Do you know he didn’t practice yesterday?
How do you reconcile the team high 30 minutes his coach gave him the game before?
You grasp at everything to try to make a point.
Wild Thing, they haven’t played a single game yet this year and you’re writing obituaries. Why do you need to put yourself so far out in front of this?
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 23, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
Obviously this is your nerve.
You say on one hand Wes can’t even show anything in two preseason games then argue with a Beasely supported that he can’t make an argument for Beast based on two preseason games. Help me. Which is it?
This is out of hand.
What I said was, that the poster wanted to use those two games as an example of Michael Beasley having a “consistent” year. It struck me that Beasley’s two games were so very different…. Saying those two contests showed he’d be “consistent” was strange.
Let’s just say, your Syracuse thing is causing you to tear at me here.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Ok
Thanks for the clarfication. Makes sense.
I don’t have a Syracuse thing when it comes to projecting NBA success.
There is a long list of journeymen (and some stars) from the program and rightfully so. Mostly due to lack of defense. John Wallace is a perfect example. He could score with anyone but wasn’t asked to play a lick of defense in college. It killed his career and it wasn’t a surprise.
I have a different view of Wes.
People (myself included) wanted Wes to rebound more and get to the line.
He did so in game 1. He also began to move and cut as the game wore on. Again, I agree that is critical for his success.
Game two was ok. He made a couple of shots, pulled a couple boards, steal, block, and left the game with an ankle sprain.
I don’t know what you are looking for from Wes but he’s not going to shoot 15-20 times (at least shouldn’t) with this lineup.
He needs to rebound, run the court, defend, hit his open shots, move and slash on offense. He did some of all of those things in the preseason.
Im optimstic that under this coach, in this system his physical attributes and basketball skills will be exploited.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 23, 2011 9:00 AM CST up reply actions
Let's agree to try to be optimistic.
It’s not like anyone dislikes the guy. I really, really liked Randy Foye as a person. Worked out with him a couple of times. Nicest pro athlete ever. No point guard, and the number of fresh starts we had to rationalize for him was silly.
In the Wolves’ shoes, I’d be looking to trade Wes Johnson if he still has value. During any given game, I really, really want him to make a positive impact.
"Opinion ...a confession."
I want to see
how Adelman uses him.
Wes is a detriment to the team as a “traditional” two (at least was last year). I’ve never tried to justify him as a two.
For Adelman to publicly say things like, I thought this team should have won more games, or the team’s defense was “horrible”, or this group turns the ball over more than any group I’ve ever seen…begins to put into context just how historically horrible Rambis was. There isn’t a player on the team I could (or would want to) fully assess from that experience.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 23, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Correct on Rambis
It’s hard for me to write a guy off when his only season in the NBA he’s playing for one of the worst coaches in recent history. It’s almost unanimous on this site that Rambis didn’t get the most out of the team and his players . I’m patient enough to give Wes one more year before castigating him. That’s just how I roll…
Very nice
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 23, 2011 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
Based on the passive nature of his play
you’re too late.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
It ain't over
until the castrato signs.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
Wait--
does a sign-language castrato hold his hands way above his head?
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
Damn spell checker
needs an algorithm for context.
@SnP, the Castro resignation means the castrato signs an encore.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
Let me rephrase
even though the point I was trying to make was obvious… Let me start this off by saying that Wes is a current member of the T-wolves, and as fans, we can’t do a damn thing about it: Wes is the hand Kahn dealt us. And the hand we got is a SF who can’t dribble and create his own shot. We didn’t draft him to be the SG of the future; we ended up moving him there because Beasley ended up coming in after the fact. Wes at SG isn’t ideal, but it was our best option last year, and considering our options this year, we’re going to need him to contribute at SG this year (unless Malcolm Lee unseats him). So, that being said, I am focusing on how we can make the best of his playing time as SG…or in other words, how he can help us win some ballgames if he’s going to be out on the court. If the dude can’t create his own shot, he can make up for it by making a significant impact in all other areas. He needs to use his length and athleticism to wreak havoc: on defense, on the offensive and defensive glass, and in transition. If he can’t create his own shot, I want to see him putting himself in situations to score by using the playmaking of others. That’s basically Shawn Marion’s game. If at mid-season he’s hand down our best perimeter defender, and one of our best 3pt shooters, and rebounders…how exactly does that make him Rodney Carney?
“Johnson’s faded under basically every possible circumstance so far in his career. Hasn’t he?” Wow dude…his 2nd season hasn’t even started, and he’s played 42 minutes in the preseason. That comment would be more appropriate at season’s end. Just saying…
by Asher14 on Dec 22, 2011 6:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'd love to see this.
If the dude can’t create his own shot, he can make up for it by making a significant impact in all other areas. He needs to use his length and athleticism to wreak havoc: on defense, on the offensive and defensive glass, and in transition. If he can’t create his own shot, I want to see him putting himself in situations to score by using the playmaking of others.
That’s why I kicked off posting about Wes by saying he needs a big dose of Stephen Jackson. Did you see Captain Jack check in last night?
The thing is, the guy’s game isn’t saying any of that. It’s screaming “wallflower” to this point. And yeah, that’s happened through summer ball, and training camp, and a full season, and now this preseason too. He’s not filling the rest of the line; his secondary stats are actually notably thin on the ground, not a plus.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Since he's faded at every step in his career..
..he was obviously bad in college?
He’s a young guy and he’s pressing. No need to take him back outside the barn and shoot him.
Everyone deserves a mulligan for last year. Everyone. Well except Flynn.
by bustaone on Dec 22, 2011 6:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
just bite the bullet and ignore his pick status
I have. He is just a small forward on this team…that’s it. If someone makes you an offer you ignore what you paid to get him and evaluate it on how it impacts your teams future.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 22, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
And I think Kahn will do that. He dumped Flynn and he’ll dump Wes and hope that the team has improved enough that folks will forget about the botched picks.
Wes’s best hope of turning into a solid starter is to become a defensive stopper. He can’t create his own shot and his outside shooting was greatly overrated coming out of college.
Take it easy on Wes
ITs his second year, hes only 20… wait never mind
Authentic frontier Gibberish
by FunkDoobious on Dec 22, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
he dumped flynn
at the point where he had to pay to dump him, after turning down the Indy deal.
That’s not a good argument for expecting Kahn to sell high, or even ‘sell’ rather than ‘pay to haul it away.’
Adelman is though. I think he’ll see what he has, say who’s worth keeping, and I think the front office will make their decisions based on that.
One thing's certain, Adelman is not going to play guys based on things like their draft position.
He’s not in Houston, and that’s one reason why.
If Chuck Hayes is a good option at starting center, Adelman will go with him. Ahead of Thabeet? Whatever, yes. If Malcolm Lee is a better option at the two than Wes in Adelman’s opinion, than Lee is going to play there ahead of Wes. And so on.
It’s refreshing.
"Opinion ...a confession."
I'm Not Expecting Kahn to Sell High
Wes’s rookie year was a bit of a disaster so his value is already low. I do think Kahn will eventually cut his losses with Wes. We might approach that point sooner rather than later given that Wes is going to struggle to get minutes because 1) Adelman likes to play two points guards; 2) the team seems to be high on Lee (deservedly so, imho), and 3) Wes is unlikely to get many minutes at the 3 with Beas, Tolliver, and Williams there.
Williams and Tolliver will not play 3
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 3:04 PM CST up reply actions
True
Defensively Tolliver can guard 3s (but most definitely could not guard 2s like Wes) but he would not be an upgrade to Wes, especially offensively. Williams looks to be PF only, but it’s too early to tell so I’m not saying he can’t make the switch; he’s got some serious work to do. Wes and Beas are the only true SF on the roster.
It's more likely
that Williams plays on the 5 side of 4 than the 3 side of 4.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
JJ the Non-Giant or Rowdy Roddy Barea
Or… The Baron von Barea. Knowing ‘The Claw’ might just help this team out.
How awesome would it be if we had Roddy Beaubois?
He’d be a great complement to Rubio (decent-size ball-handling guard with great athleticism and scoring ability) with a great wrestling nickname to match. I wouldn’t mind making him a trade target involving Wes.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
Forgive me if this has been suggested
but what about “El Duo Dinamico”?
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
by PoorDick on Dec 22, 2011 8:38 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Nice, but
I was under the impression that “dos lobos” had already won an informal vote.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 9:15 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I'm good with either of these
I done re-reached 1000 comments.
by BrettAhlgren on Dec 22, 2011 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
Uh . . .
“Two Wolves”?
I think that’s wayyyy too edgy for Midwestern sensibilities.
I can feel a poll coming on . . .
(Insert your own joke here)
(Extra points if you can use the words “insert” and “poll” in the joke)
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
If you think I would stoop so far as to do
a poll insertion joke……., you’re right.
Timberwolves 2011:
Kahnceptual Performance Art
I thought they did
fairly well considering we we’re missing our two best guards. Love was amazing and Beasley for the most part played solid D even tho he struggled with his shot. I think they have a bright future. oh and when Ricky is back Luke needs to come off the bench.
Authentic frontier Gibberish
Buck up SnP!
Good post, but I think things are slightly less gloomy than you may be fearing here. Of course, I tend in the Tim direction at times so I could be delusional, but …
1) Adelman is not going to gift non-producing guys with lots of minutes in the regular season. I think a lot of the awkwardness and ineffectiveness last night was due to minutes for guys that should not be in the 9 man rotation: Wayne, Pek, AR, Bonzi. I also question whether Luke should get many minutes, as I think his stellar shooting percentages are torpedoed by his decision making.
2) Regarding Beasley, they mentioned how Rick was trying to create some space for him to isolate & create at times. I’ll bet that will come with some strings. e.g. I’m letting you iso and use your 1-on-1 skills – but you need to take good shots and create for others. We’ll see if it is successful, but if Beasley shows poor shot selection there are many other options on the bench.
3) Regarding the NBA and the Chris Paul trade – I don’t completely believe Stern when he said that pressure from outraged owners had no role in the decision. But I think it was a pretty small role. Stern is basically the “acting owner” for the Hornets. He said he didn’t even want the role, but the other owners didn’t want to have it because that would have led to even greater conflicts of interest. As “acting owner”, he wanted to see young players with All Star potential & picks coming back in the trade. The LAL trade did not provide that. The LAC trade did. I don’t think this is nearly as nefarious as it has been made out to be. Sure, Demps may have had a plan to trade the older, expensive players from LAL for young all stars and picks. But that is pretty risky unless the 2nd deals were 100% locked in. Also, Stern wants to sell the team ASAP – like January. If Demps was planning on a deadline trade, then the sale might not have been possible. I’ll bet it’s easier to sell a rebuilding team with Gordon, picks, and low salary commitments than a rebuilding team with some expensive 30+ year old guys.
Re: the competitive balance part of this – I think the situation is two-fold. First, the new CBA did not do enough to help small markets keep their own players. The worst example is the situation where veteran free agents stand to do better by playing out their contract than by signing an extension with their current team! However, some of the changes to help smaller market teams won’t be phased in for 2 years, such as steep tax rates and S&T restrictions. So we may see more benefit there.
In general, my takeaways from this game were:
- I like Lee and fear as you do that he’ll be eating up the #4 pick’s minutes soon.
- Give Love the max deal or near max already (if you can convince him to take a little less in order to put more quality around him)
- Team with Rubio & JJ much more effective
- A coach can apparently lobby for calls on his players’ behalf. Who knew?
- Please trade Wes, AR, and Pek for SG help while they still have some value.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 22, 2011 8:39 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Good points
I’m not sure about trading Wes I still hold out hope for him. Oh and SnP is never going to be as positive as we would like him to be.
Authentic frontier Gibberish
by FunkDoobious on Dec 22, 2011 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I like the way Wes plays
In terms of rebounding, passing, and blocking shots. Those are all skills I prize, and I think he will be a good backup SF. But that is poor value from the #4 pick in the draft. If we can find a team that still views him very highly and will give up good value – that is not a bad option.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 22, 2011 8:51 AM CST up reply actions
You may be right
I think Wes could benefit greatly if plays more mins with Rubio on the floor. playing with Beas and Luke (exspecially Luke) makes it hard to score for a guy who can’t create for himself.
Authentic frontier Gibberish
by FunkDoobious on Dec 22, 2011 8:55 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Wes played several minutes alongside Rubio in game one.
The rough outlines of the results are that he had:
A rebound and a turnover in his first four minutes with Ricky; and
a made shot, one FT or two tries, 2 rebounds and a foul in the other 8:30 or so.
Even the latter is still such a quiet performance. Wes Johnson is seemingly unable to make an impact on a game. He’s a nonentity.
"Opinion ...a confession."
the organization may feel Wes' value
is higher as a hedge for Beasley, once they make a decision on Beasley being re-signed or if they think he can handle the SF duties Wes should be gone….like yesterday.
But, if Beasley is not the answer, you don’t sign him and slide Wes into the SF position.
Of course, finding out that Wes is able to handle the SF position should also be a part of the process.
Finally, Wes looks much better if you have a high scoring SG, which we don’t have yet. (unless JJ is a season long version of the JJ from last years Championship)
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on Dec 22, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
Wes rebounds the poorly at the two
despite being a 3/4 tweener.
I agree
Don’t think Luke should be getting the minutes…….they just don’t look good with him at the helm.
by anet on Dec 22, 2011 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't understand how Luke is getting lumped in with guys like Pek, AR, Bonzi,and Ellington....
People in the game threads, and post-game discussion are consistently ragging on Luke. I’m not chairman of the Luke Ridnour fanclub, but the guy is the least of our problems. He was probably the second best player on our team last year. He has looked kind of ugly in the 2 preseason games, but he spearheaded our 2 minutes of awesomeness, and 2 preseason games doesn’t mean anything against his body of work.
We do have two other quality guards now, but there isn’t much reason to think either will be much better (if even better) than Ridnour. Barrea, Luke, and hopefully Rubio should all end up in about the same tier. Luke isn’t as clean of a distributor as Rubio, or as aggressive getting to the basket as Barrea, but he offers a really important skill-set of his own. Luke can create and make shots with really nice efficiency. Luke is a part of the solution, not the problem. I would put good odds on him being more important to our success this year than: Wes, Darko, Beasley, Williams, Lee, Tolliver… and anyone else not named Love, Rubio, Barrea.
Luke Ridnour is an average NBA player. That is something in very short supply on this team.
by vjl110 on Dec 22, 2011 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Luke
does nothing to make the other players on the floor better. He gets no one else involved on offense or the fast break. He does shoot the ball well but that shouldn’t be the job of a point gaurd. I believe if you get other players involved on O they are going to play better D.
Authentic frontier Gibberish
by FunkDoobious on Dec 22, 2011 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
Luke is a flawed player....
but he is still solid to good. That is a vast improvement over that vast majority of guys on our roster.
He does seem to play more like a SG trapped in a PG’s body, but we now have two other PGs on the roster, so he may actually fit in really nicely. Rubio, Barrea, and Ridnour should get as many minutes at the 1 and 2 as possible.
I think Luke
would be really good for the Lakers, or at least last year’s Lakers.
I agree with all of the above. I don’t love his playmaking or his tendency to take shots early in the clock, but he’s a very good shooter, a good ball handler, and he definitely is not the problem on this team.
Yes, I could seem him on the Lakers of last year perfectly
Bring the ball up safely, give it to Kobe to create, spot up for the open three. Basically, what Steve Blake should have been (WTH happend to him?) Could see him in a similar role for the Heat.
Our problem is that due to such poor ball handling and offense creation at the SG spot, doing those things does not help our team enough. We need a PG who effectively runs the offense and gets other guys easy shots.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 22, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
That may have been the motive in signing him, come to that.
As a Tricycle PG, Ridnour makes a better fit.
"Opinion ...a confession."
How ironic
That we dumped Sessions and now need him…after we signed him for a role he didn’t fit.
You can't dust for vomit.
by twinstalker on Dec 22, 2011 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
I will not dislike him as much once Rubio is starting, tell then hes taking Rubio’s mins
Authentic frontier Gibberish
by FunkDoobious on Dec 22, 2011 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with that too
Luke as a starter = not so good
As a backup he wouldn’t be so hard to tolerate.
+1.
I think Luke should play the 2 guard. Give up trying to direct the offense, and just get open and continue to shoot well. If viewed in that way, he is an effective and efficient scorer who can handle the ball. So far, no one else has stepped up to that definition. He could be the 3rd pg in a pinch and 4th if Lee steps up.
by pirahna on Dec 22, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He would get
destroyed on defense at the 2.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
I think in this scenario Rubio would be guarding the two
not that he wouldn’t also get destroyed.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Dec 22, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
Luke Ridnour is an average NBA player.
Don’t tell this to PoorDick.
But I agree with you.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
I agree that he is an average PLAYER
and also think he’s a below-average STARTER who is unlikely to get any better.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
I can't believe I am doing this.... but here goes...
I would argue Luke is an average NBA starter, but a below-average starter on a contending team. his WP48 certainly supports this position, and just looking at who starts at PG for teams around the league he seems to be close to the middle of the pack.
I think that to understand Luke's full impact..
..you can only rely on game tape. His numbers always look OK, but the entire team grinds to a halt the second he takes the helm.
He’s a very good shooter, but a terrible passer and facilitator. Nothing against him, that’s just what I see from him on a consistent basis.
But to his defense, when he gets into the game the rest of the players on offense seem to just stand there. So the options with him on the floor are pretty much him dribbling around until he hands it to someone (never a pass longer than 5 feet) like Beasley who has to now beat both defenders to get anywhere or Luke just heaves up a 3.
by bustaone on Dec 22, 2011 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Bustaone nailed it!
That is exactly what Luke does. You can’t really look at his numbers. Just look at both games this year when he is in. They stink! He makes the team worse. I’m not smart enough to know why but he does.
I actually hesitated before deciding on "average"...
due to that ridiculous discussion you are alluding to. However, it really does seem to be the best description.
Most of the discussions here
in which I am involved are ridiculous.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
He's just like Darko
if he plays less than 25 mpg he will be a huge asset
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I don't understand this
If a guy plays less, he will be better? Be a “huge asset?” It seems to me that playing less has the function of minimizing the damage, not making the guy a better player.
Ridnour isn’t a bad player, and shouldn’t be lumped in with our crew of replacement level and below roster fodder.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
It makes sense
if you don’t think about it
Authentic frontier Gibberish
by FunkDoobious on Dec 22, 2011 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sounds like a great CH tagline
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Dec 22, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
I would categorize some of the players on our roster as "matchup dependent"
Meaning they should get minutes when the matchup dictates but not otherwise. I think Darko is the poster child of this and I think Luke is in a slightly different way.
Darko is important for the 6 teams in the league that have legit centers. I thought he was reasonably effective defensively against Bogut (one of those guys) last night (I watched very little so I may have missed the other parts where he sucked) and if Adelman can get him to eliminate the left-handed hooks (there was at least one last night but I put that on everyone standing around and vacating his side — it looked for a moment like they were playing last year’s offense). Against other teams that don’t have a legit center they should go small / active and Darko shouldn’t play much. Is Darko a bad player? I think we’ve looked at the statistics enough to say he’s average defensively and below-average offensively. If you can put him in matchups where you can play to his strengths, then he could (emphasis on could) pay dividends). If you misuse him (like Rambis) you will most definitely hurt the team.
Luke to me is “matchup dependent” in that I think he is a better than average (maybe way better than average) backup PG and a below average starting PG, especially defensively. So the “matchup” he needs to excel (i.e., be better than his opponent) is less good players.
Putting it another way (and SnP’s larger point): having replacement-level players gets you to .500. But if you want to be better than average, your replacement-level players better be backing up above-replacement level players.
No, replacement level is not the same as average
It’s way below average. Replacement level is the level of freely available talent. Guys floating around the D-League.
Your post is exactly what I was talking about above: “If this guy does that and the other guy is used this way…” I hope it works out, but a lot of that is unrealistic wishful thinking, in my view.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
OK. Poor choice of words by me
I’m not going to represent something that I haven’t looked at closely, but my understanding is that Darko is an average NBA center defensively (basted on Drtg) and that Luke is an average player period based on PER and other metrics. My point was that in those two instances you have something you can work with to at least be on par with other NBA players. I’m not so sure you have that in Wes, Pek, Bonzi (at this stage), Lee (at this stage), Rubio (who the heck knows) and any other number of guys on the roster. Which is a big problem. Quite frankly if we can get to .400 – .450 ball I think Adelman should be coach of the year.
I’m basically agreeing with you. We have a bunch of average or below average players and the BEST you can hope to do is put them in situations where they are most likely to succeed (or not fail).
Someone's gotta play those minutes
I’d rather have Ridnour than Mikey Wilks
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
Luke does not
create his own shots. He can play the PnR game and he’ll make open jumpers but the only time he drives is if it’s fast break (or semi-fast break) and there’s an open lane. Then he can hit the floater. He’s not quick enough to create space.
by Jordan Seiffert on Dec 22, 2011 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
Luke is a player who will probably be wrongfully miscast as one of the misfits from last year
The Wolves guard play will improve significantly this year, I think, but a decent part of this will come from replacing the abysmal production of players like Flynn/Telfair (1600 combined MP), and probably playing more two-pg sets that will limit some of the poor production we got from players like Brewer, Ellington, and probably Wes, too, at SG.
by WolvesFan03 on Dec 22, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Among puzzling Rambis doctrines, not *ever* playing two PGs together was conspicuous.
Flynn and Sessions, and you never put them out there together?
(Part of the reasoning I think came from his sophisticated sense of defensive play, which told us that taller players were always better defenders.)
"Opinion ...a confession."
Playing Flynn and Sessions together
was impossible, defensivelly. If Flynn guarded the PG, you essentially had two positions undefended. If he had guarded the 2, the Four Horsemen would have galloped in.
Sorry if this is a double-post.
You can't dust for vomit.
(Milwaukee had used Sessions at the off guard some the previous year. He could defend some of them, anyway.)
I strongly suspect Rambis was thinking more of the team’s need for outside shots from the wing. Toward that end he had Corey Brewer taking threes all season long.
"Opinion ...a confession."
I think Luke is a reliable backup PG
Whether we need a reliable backup is another question. He doesn’t have a lot of the skills I want from my PG (call me a traditionalist), but he does have value. However, watching last nights game made me remember why I absolutely hated Luke running the offense in crunchtime.
He plays the end of games
like the star of a hs team. All him, all the time. Does very little to make his teammates better.
He does have a good skill set and is a good shooter, but he lacks the mentality of a point guard and the size and strength of a two.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
I was pleased during the game
to see Darko go up for what certainly looked like a left-handed miss, only to pass to a wide open Ridnour who made the jumper from the baseline. Not sure Darko would have made the pass last year.
Why would we be afraid if Lee took minutes from Wes?
Isn’t that awesome?
How long have we been pining for a 2nd round draft find? It happens every year…Lee looks really good and I was under the impression he was looking to be a late 1st rounder but dropped….
I don’t see why it’s a bad thing if we have developed an actual shooting guard.
Wes has the tools to be a very good SF, but not a 2
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
Wrestling Nickname: Spanish Flies
Judging by all the Ricky swooning so far anyway.
2 Kevin Love points:
he can be the go to guy and finish games
he can play decent defense
These were both true last year too. Plenty of people pointed out the atrocious guard play + Rambis’s ‘scheme’ of not letting his 4s close on the perimeter, yet still blamed Love for the breakdowns and easy layups that came of those. I think there are going to be a whole lot of “Hey Love’s defense is a lot better this year!” posts. It may be partly true, but it’s also him playing with better guards in a better scheme.
More Love for Love
He also has improved his ability to draw fouls and get to the FT line (especially in the last two minutes), a quality all superstars have. The Refs will start giving him more calls too with his ascendance to NBA star level and Adelman lobbying for him on the sidelines helps too.
Maybe Love lost weight
So the fouls against him will be noticed more!
You can't dust for vomit.
Didn't get to watch the first game
as I was driving through Wisconsin. Their radio guy by the way is definitely not as good. Before the preseason I was worried about Love’s weight loss possibly messing up his rebounding. Obviously not the case but I was really pleased to see how quick he is now.
Also, I only got to see that edited clip of Rubio’s minutes but last night without him and JJ the offense seemed out-of-control the entire time. Too much one-on-one play from the likes of pretty much everybody. Seemed like guys didn’t trust the offense much last night.
Or, it could be that we still have a lot of mis-matched parts and the first game was an anomaly.
I watched both games in full
and I am very confident that the difference in offensive flow was directly tied to our Spanish-speaking backcourt playing in game one and not playing in game 2.
Luke can handle the ball, but he doesn’t penetrate – Rubio and Barrea are slashers and this is a skill set that doesn’t necessarily show up in the stats – but it definitely makes your offense better if done without turnovers because it puts pressure on the D and opens up opportunities for teammates.
Imagine a team with all forwards and centers. A coach would need to dream up an offense that relied completely on passing and very little dribbling. It would surely look rather stagnant. This is what we saw last night for the most part.
Above and beyond the lack of offensive results, the game was just way uglier to watch. The excitement factor is just not there without Ricky and JJ – love these guys.
by pae808 on Dec 22, 2011 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, one game without Rubio
convinced me that he’s the difference between fun Wolves and not-fun Wolves. I heart Ricky.
I’m not totally sold on Barea yet , in that he had some moments in he seemed a little out of control to me, but I do think he’s a step up for us.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 9:20 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Since one's from Puerto Rico and one's from Spain
I guess you could call them Rum and Coke.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 9:10 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Or
The matador and the little bull.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
Actually
Bullfighting is forbidden in Catalonia and not all spanish people like it. I ´d rather choose another nick for Rubio.
Hi from Spain anyway, it´s nice to see al the hype about him here.
by Joe Kozinski on Dec 22, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions
(Thanks for tossing that in.)
In general the various “Spanish” flavors of nickname grate at me.
Olé? Really?
"Opinion ...a confession."
Spanish flavours?
Haha, try “Pantumaca” or “alioli”. 100% catalonian.
(No, seriously, don´t try)
by Joe Kozinski on Dec 22, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought El Mago del Masnou (or is it de El when El is part of a town name?)
was a fun nickname, considering he’s a magician with the ball and he’s from El Masnou. Then I decided it’s a little too cutesy and obscure. Plus my Spanish is pretty iffy, so I’m not sure how about the correctness of the syntax and such.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
It should be
“de El Masnou”, but in the city hall’s web is written “del Masnou”. I don’t know if it is a catalonian language rule or just a specific case. I don’t like it anyway.
I think it’s too early for this kind of stuff, unless he proves he is a real star this year i’ll call him Rookie Rubio.
Don’t get me wrong, i’ve seen him playing in my hometown and in the Euroleague Final Four in Paris and i’ve allways thought that he is amazing, but it’s too soon to say he is the next Magic, or Nash or Kidd.
(Don’t worry if your spanish is iffy, i didn’t knew what “iffy” means)
by Joe Kozinski on Dec 22, 2011 2:35 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks for the help
Rookie Rubio is a nice nickname, especially during those games where we have to remind ourselves how young and new to the NBA he is. Either way, I don’t consider him good enough to warrant a serious comparison to those Hall of Fame players, but I do think he’s flashy and exciting enough to warrant a fun nickname. “Mago de El Masnou” is sort of my Ricky Rubio version of Larry Bird as “The Hick from French Lick.”
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
Nice to hear
from a true Spaniard, Mr Kozinski. :)
by pirahna on Dec 22, 2011 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I liked this line from the Basketball Prospectus player card
On Beasley: “Beasley ranked ninth in the league in attempts per game from 16-23 feet. He shoots them at an above-average percentage, so accuracy is not the problem. It’s just that building an offense around long twos is like building a diet around candy.”
Coincidentally, Beasley also builds his diet around candy.
All joking aside, I actually still like Beasley a lot, and see him as more likely to make a leap than the other “potential” guys that SnP listed earlier. I know I don’t have any numbers to back me up, but he seems to be the type of guy that could be an exception.
by Dumbhead62 on Dec 22, 2011 9:23 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Is Beas still a Skittle head?
I haven’t seen any reporters mention the junk food this year. I would think hanging out with Norm Nixon and Debby Allen would have cleaned up his diet a bit.
"He was born pissed." - Poor Dick
Been wondering this, yes.
Andy G had said he was looking like T-Mac physically, but at least by the time he’d reached camp Bease’s hair was the main difference.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Yes, his diet is improved
but now he’s wearing leg warmers at practice and says he wants to enroll at Julliard.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
Except, apparently, for the excellent peanut butter cookies at the team facility
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions
No defense needed
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
Coincidentally, Beasley also builds his diet around candy.
Hahahahahaha
Seriously though, I do hope Beasley has started eating better and is taking his game more serious. I’d love to see him take off with a combo of freedom & responsibility from Adelman.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 22, 2011 9:30 AM CST up reply actions
I have to take issue with one thing in your write-up, SnP
and that is…even with Bogut healthy, I think the Bucks are going to be terrible.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
by TimAllen on Dec 22, 2011 9:38 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I think highly of Skiles and Bogut
I don’t know why it seems like Bogut never gets very many touches on offense.
But if the attendance last night is any indicator, Bucks fans do not seem excited about their chances. Looked like about 35 people there.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Dec 22, 2011 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
From what I've seen, they have Bogut, a disgruntled Stephen Jackson,
Prince Luc Richard Steve Greg Harry Mbah a Moute, a downward sliding Brandon Jennings and some rookies that could be bench players if they realize their potential.
Not a lot there, and given that Skiles-led teams get consistently worse over time as players start to drown him out, I think they’re a bottom feeder this year
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Skiles is that burning fuse that might blow it up, for sure.
They aren’t playing his ball right now.
"Opinion ...a confession."
They're really going to have to play the tough D that Skiles likes
Because there are some ugly shooting percentages on that team.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
I still think you are a little misguided/jaded in your view of the Wolves
Much love and respect for the work you do, but I can’t imagine viewing the world (and especially something as big picture meaningless as sports) as glass half empty as it appears you do. (this is the impression I get from your work, it is not me making a generalized point about you as a person)
What I saw last night was a sloppily played gamed. A game that had too many turnovers, not enough consistent play, this is a game we would have gotten blown out by last year. And we won.
Beasley moves like a SF. Not as noticeably as Love, but he has also gotten himself in better shape. I think he’s in line for a consistent year. This was another situation where he probably would have just checked out last year, but played hard in the 2nd half.
I like Williams confidence, he doesn’t seem to be shaken by being in the NBA. I think he’ll be an immediate contributor this year.
I pray and pray and pray that Randolph never touches the court….horrendous basketball player. Beasley is pass-first in comparison to Randolph.
Malcom Lee has a really smooth game….He’s clearly not a PG, but I absolutely think he could be our starting 2 by Jan, barring a trade. He has such a smooth game, if he can hit open Jump shots, plays super tough D even for a rookie….that will get him a lot of minutes.
What a difference a good point guard makes
and KLove is awesome
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Beasley is pass-first
In comparison to Randolph. Love this. Randolph obviously has skills but has no clue how to put it together.
I agree with your comment on Williams too. I love the confidence; something Wes lacks.
by Jordan Seiffert on Dec 22, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
guess thats the difference
between a #4 pick and a #2 pick…
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
The crime is this is not a good fit for Wes
The moment we got Michael Beasley this became a poor fit for Wes Johnson.
I really wish we’d have traded all our picks in that draft to the Sixers for E.T. or #4 and Jefferson or something.
Wes would thrive on a team like the Sixers and E.T. would really look good for us.
I think there is a good NBA player in Wes, but Rambis in year 1 and the roster glut in year 2 have made it hard for him to be successful.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Can we get over
Wes being #4? I know it’s tough cuz you should be able to get high return in #4 but do you consider him valuable as a backup to Beasley (if MB plays 3)?Or is that giving up on him and his trade value?
by Jordan Seiffert on Dec 22, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
You think, after those two preseason games, that Beasley is "in line for a consistent year"?
"Opinion ...a confession."
No, but in conjunction with everything that's gone on in his career
Drafted to Miami with a young coach who, albeit is an excellent defensive coach and can handle diva superstars but as not shown the ability to develop a young player (Chalmers has arguably gotten worse since his promising rookie season), and drafted to a team with a volume scorer already, which completely minimized the thing Beasley has shown he can be effective at if put in the position to succeed. Miami=not a good fit, Beasley=not mature enough to handle it.
Traded to Minnesota where he is playing with one of the worst coaches that I have seen in the NBA in quite some time, possibly knows less how to develop an player and show him how to play defense in the NBA. Beasley still isn’t mature enough to handle the situation to it’s fullest, however he was able to string together some promising outings and flash the potential people saw coming out of K-State.
Now he has a coach that A) knows what he is doing, B) has already shown he can get through to Beasley on certain issue (it was only a preseason game, but to get Beasley to fight through a bad first half in a meaningless game speaks volumes to me). And Beasley has take the steps to clean his life up by getting a life coach going and trying to take his game more seriously.
I am encouraged by what I have seen in the two pre-season games as they have shown me at least what a good game by Beasley looks like and also what a bad one looks like. The bad game isn’t quite so bad, and the good game is a lot better and more efficient than what we are used too.
I think Mike Beasley is finally ready to get it going. Maybe I’m wrong, but I like the way he is handling himself so far.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Malcolm Lee
looked a little Russell Westbrook-ey last night. Very athletic, can change gears quickly. Also seemed to play right on the border of being out of control most of the time.
Been a pleasant surprise, for sure.
If Malcolm Lee can actually play 8 minutes a night as he’s done in these two games, then…. I mean, our second-round pick will have given us a substantial improvement on Jonny last year. Leaving alone Rubio and Barea.
"Opinion ...a confession."
What if by seasons end our best lineup is
Rubio, Lee, Beasley, Love, Williams
and we are a 28+ win team
What a solid off-season for Kahnzy
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:28 AM CST up reply actions
Good point
He seemed comfortable on the court. Not sure how great his court vision is to run point consistently but like you said, his “gear-changing” ability was apparent.
by Jordan Seiffert on Dec 22, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
I know I'm a James Harden pimp
but he reminds me of Harden without the dagger J
He’s just so smooth, I love players that play like that….just kinda glide around the court, can get to the bucket, look to pass, play tough d
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
"but he reminds me of Harden without the dagger J"
or the beard. Yet.
Or, for that matter, without playing on the perimeter next to one of the best players in the game and another All Star, as well.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
RUBIO AND LOVE BABY!!!!!
It’s coming! James Harden comp without the dagger is coming! Get your “fear the beard” shirts ready PoorDick!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Pollard's wearing Love's sunglasses from that Cuervo volleyball thing, too. Class.
"Opinion ...a confession."
So,
Rubio, Ridnour, Barea, and Lee split up the minutes at PG and SG.
Beasley starts at SF, with Wes off the bench. Webster takes Wes’ minutes when he’s healthy.
Love, Williams, and some Tolliver at PF.
Darko, Love, Tolliver and a bit of Pekovic (for entertainment value) at center. Miller mixed in when healthy.
Ellington and Randolph are the victory cigars.
If he wants a 9 man rotation, who are the Wolves 9 best players?
Rubio, Barea, Ridnour
Love, Beasley, Tollover
Those are the obvious 6 best guys, I think, though Rubio hasn’t proven it. He’ll certainly be in the rotation, though.
Next 3: Williams (see Rubio comment). Yikes. Johnson and Milicic? Lee in there instead?
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, the last three get a little dicey.
Darko probably has to play, at least until (or if) Miller gets healthy. If Webster is healthy, he’s in that group. Williams shows some potential. I really liked most of what I saw from Lee last night. Wes exists.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
Those are the nine
Don’t think RA is going to rush things with Lee.
Rick had two preseason games to get a good look at all of his players. Last night’s minutes probably don’t reflect Lee’s role. Certainly not with TMALB out.
Lee could push someone later on but frankly I think someone will be traded, opening up a role.
With this grind of a schedule you may also see him play 10.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
I agree that we probably won't see that much of Lee,
at least early on. He showed enough effort and ability on defense that I wouldn’t be surprised to see him in a somewhat prominent role eventually, though. He fought through picks! Not something one typically sees on this roster.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
(My rotation above was a wish list, not an expectation)
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
My response was to Eric
But I agree with you that Lee looks viable for the future. Just think Adelman doesn’t need to rush him.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry, I thought that since his response to me,
I could stay in the conversation. My bad.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
It wasn't an admonishment
I was pointing out that I wasn’t in disagreement.
It looked like you thought my response was to you. Thanks again for the sarcasm.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 22, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
Sorry,
the sarcasm is flowing freely prior to my full daily dose of caffeine.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
My guess is by the end of the year
The starting 5 will be
Rubio, Lee, Beasley, Love, Williams/Darko (matchup pending with Williams getting 60% starts)
Bench Rotation: Barea, Williams/Darko, Ridnour, Wes (unless traded)
I like all the players in that grouping
Hopefully Randolph, Pek and Ellington (maybe Wes) are traded for a draft pick
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Wow, you can envision
Adelman starting 3 rookies??
by Jeffrey Lebowski on Dec 22, 2011 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
I guess SnP can't win
I found this to be a fairly positive post, and he’s still getting ripped for being too negative. I have a feeling this website would get boring pretty fast if all of it’s authors wrote like Sid Hartman.
by MoreJuice on Dec 22, 2011 10:03 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
I don't know how people expect more positivity..
..after THAT game.
We only won because the Bucks shot like 24% from the FT line. It was ugly as hell.
But at least Love is awesome.
It's a nice dynamic
You got TimAllen who is the pie and the sky guy and you got SnP who is the dirt pie kinda guy
They balance each other out well and there are posters on both ends of the spectrum.
Where I disagree with SnP is I get the impression that if you believe in the dirty word “potential” that makes you less of a basketball mind in his eye, or let me find a better word….you are less rational of a basketball mind? (SnP if I’m wrong I apologize, but it is the impression I get). And personally I think a great basketball mind will factor potential in to the equation, along with the “eye-test” and with statistical data to show where they are thinking with certain players.
Derrick Williams is the ultimate example and I think SnP has actually been pretty fair about DW, but the issue is he seems to not be able to get over the fact that DW doesn’t do things that are proven to “translate” to the NBA, and my counter has always been….“you aren’t drafting Williams to rebound etc. You’re drafting him to score, and if scoring can’t be predicted then you just kinda gotta hope and pray that you’re scouting is right.” I don’t think that makes me better or worse than SnP in terms of bball acumen, but it is something where like a lotta people were hoping we’d trade the pick for Kevin Martin and I just think….we know what K-Mart is, he’s a solid scorer on bad teams. would he be an upgrade? for the present yes, but I believe Williams ceiling is much higher than Martin as a player. However….totally would have traded him for Harden or Gordon had that been an option.
I am an optimist and always will be, but I don’t think being an optimist means you aren’t operating within the parameters of real world hoops
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Optimism is fine
I lean that way as well, but I don’t get people who rag on others for being “too negative” especailly in regards to this team, which has been one of the worst run organizations in NBA history.
You're wrong...
…by using " that makes you less of a basketball mind in his eye". I know we live in narcissistic times, but disagreement doesn’t imply what you mentioned follows. I think “potential” is one of the more damaging concepts in all of pro sports and it causes teams to waste precious resources. Me thinking people who value potential are wrong on that point doesn’t mean anything else than me thinking they’re wrong on that point.
I think potential gets thrown around too much in lieu
of understanding under what role a player can be successful. EVERY player needs something to be on top of his game and shine. Many people tend to get locked into a hopeful ideal and are constantly disappointed when it doesn’t pan out.
Wes’s lack of handles makes being a top line player practically unfeasible. Can he be a jack of all trades that can show up in all the stats by blocking, stealing, rebounding, and generally causing havoc? Absolutely, but he needs a very specific situation at the other positions for him to succeed at that…this simply hasn’t happened because we don’t have what we need to see that situation come to fruition.
We need a different type of SG and C for that to occur. And we don’t’.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 22, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
Coach Adelman
commented on potential, which is an often used phrase from coaches, “potential gets coaches in trouble”
with his son in the front office, and his history of sitting guys who don’t play the game the right way, i expect him to take out this teams trash rather quickly (via trade, via serious bench time, via buy outs and options not picked up)
guys who should be worried: Anthony Randolph, Wes, Beas, Darko, Pek, Wayne…already toast ; Lazar.
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on Dec 22, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
We have a whole lot of data to show that Wes can't actually rebound well on the wing in the NBA
Look at his per 36s and digest that he doesn’t and isn’t likely to ever do much of the ball. And then watch him with the ball and you realize that except for having been a high draft pick he is performing on a level that doesn’t warrant NBA minutes.
I would agree that he isn't a tremendous rebounder
He doesn’t have the instincts to be a great rebounder for his position (whatever that is). But if you put him at the three he should find himself to grab more rebounds by where he is in both the offense as well as defensively on the other end. Asking him to sit out at the three point line with average at best rebounding instinct is going to give him even worse rebounding stats. He has rebounded much better this preseason (small sample size theater).
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 22, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
This just excuse making
the reason Wes does so little well on the basketball court almost certainly wasn’t because of “role.” It is because of a lack of ability. This is especially true of things like rebounding which have shown to be remarkably consistent for players as they went from starter to bench and vice versa, from team to team and within various roles.
People are now making the same kind of tortured arguments for Wes that they made last season for Darko and in season’s past for Randy Foye and Corey Brewer. Wes stunk last year and the reasons for that are pretty plain – he lacks the ability to get to the rim or even consistently get open. Away from the ball he does little if anything of value. Neither of these is likely to change anytime soon – Wes’ path to being a solid contributor in the NBA it will almost certainly not be as a “jack of all trades” type – he is going to have to become an absolutely lethal perimeter shooter to ever be even an average wing. And as it was last year when people pointed it out – that is just highly unlikely.
by Ailuridae on Dec 22, 2011 5:38 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
His route to passable NBA wing play is probably not far off from what a healthy Martell Webster can do.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 22, 2011 5:55 PM CST up reply actions
where you are put on the court from an offensive position does make an impact
on offensive rebounding. Standing out on the three point line with average at best instincts on where the ball is going to go will not lead to a lot of boards. Same goes for on the other end for defensive boards. I never said Wes would be an above average rebounder for his position. But thinking he is a poor rebounder and that a position switch to put him closer to where more rebounds typically land won’t lead to him grabbing more rebounds per game is asinine.
Your whole “This just excuse making” comment seems to put my statement in the context that I said something I didn’t. Do you mean to tell me that if Wes played the 3 instead of the 2 and that meant he had to play in from the perimeter a little more that he wouldn’t receive a marginal bump in rebounding from that move alone? You think his rebounding numbers stay the same or decrease?
I find it irritating that you ignored what I said and decided to use what I did say as a soap box for you to sound off on Wes and make it sound like I am some huge Wes supporter.
"My love for Jerry Kill knows no bounds." - Jeffrick
by TheEvilProfessor on Dec 23, 2011 8:33 AM CST up reply actions
But then what's the point?
You answer it yourself: I never said Wes would be an above average rebounder for his position.
If that’s the case, then it doesn’t help if he’s playing a different position. His raw rebounding numbers might go up, but all that means is that someone else isn’t getting the rebounds. If he’s playing the 3, then someone else (presumably a better rebounder, though on this team maybe not) is not playing the 3. It has negative impact on the team’s ability to rebound.
You say yourself that he doesn’t have great instincts for rebounding. I would go further and say he seems to have poor instincts for it. If that’s the case, why would you want him in a position where the team is more reliant on him to do something he doesn’t have the instincts for?
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 23, 2011 8:46 AM CST up reply actions
Wes averaged
almost 8 rebounds per game as a freshman at Iowa St, and nearly 9 as a junior at Siberacuse.
I also don’t understand this argument at all.
It was not possible for Wes to put up rebounding numbers last year.
I was encouraged by game 1. He needs to continue to embrace the role.
Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"
by Tangerine dream on Dec 23, 2011 9:09 AM CST up reply actions
Agree. And we'll see how he does in year 2.
He was a solid rebounder in college, and if my memory serves me correctly at no point did I ever get the impression he or any other wing on the team attacked the glass. That needs to change this year. Rebounding is a combo of skill and effort. His rebounding numbers will improve be merely making that a focal point and not an afterthought.
by Asher14 on Dec 22, 2011 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Potential, like a lot of draft things, seems like a swinging pendulum.
For every Ty Lawson there’s a DeAndre Jordan. For every Stromile Swift there’s an Adam Morrison.
Or something like that.
I honestly don't understand this
Could you explain? What is Ty Lawson compared to DeAndre Jordan? What is Stromile Swift compared to Adam Morrison? I was expecting to read “for every DeAndre Jordan, there is a Stromile Swift.” I would have understood that, anyway, because one is starting to reach his potential while the other never did. Thanks.
You can't dust for vomit.
But if you ignore potential..
…you end up with the Houston Rockets.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
My point is
I respect numbers basketball, but you can’t ignore potential and high risk/high reward players.
At some point you gotta go out on a limb on a player and hope he’s Melo and not Minor
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Which is why bottoming out is potentially better than being .500 every year?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
?
The Rockets were struck by injury and are now trying to make it in life after Yao. After watching the Wolves for the past few years, I’d never recommend bottomingg out to anybody. It is an insane strategy.
We all saw this coming.
And I don’t think it is an insane strategy. It does suck to watch though.
I’m still convinced we kept rambus at the helm just BECAUSE he was awful. Last year was hopefully the last one of those clunkers we will have to see for quite some time.
Nobody of significant value was going to sign here as a FA. The draft was the only way.. and if the draft is your only avenue to success, you have to maximize.
Have the rockets done a kirby puckett event for yao yet? They owe that man.
bottoming out......
…..is austerity in sports. there is no good reason for it other than to satisfy the….well, i’m not sure who gets their kicks from that sort of thing. the seas are always stormy and you can never bank on the future. always be as good as possible, try to move up in the draft when possible, and never tell your fanbase that in order for things tomget better that they have to get worse
You can't win this
I’ve been making this argument for years.
It’s like childbirth. Somehow, people forget how horrible watching and rooting for a team that never wins is as soon as the calendar flips. Rockets fans have actually had half-decent basketball to watch the last couple of seasons. To me, that counts. We have had…our beloved puppies.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 9:10 PM CST up reply actions
There is no winning in sports.
Wait . . .
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 22, 2011 9:17 PM CST up reply actions
Its disappointing that the Wolves were completely clueless about how good Love was
until this time last year. Those of us who looked at the numbers and didn’t obsess about murky concepts like “length and athleticism” saw what was there by the end of his rookie year. If you know Love is a cornerstone (no matter how unconventional) you can make much better informed decisions and, of course, have a better team. But really what the Wolves did was spin their wheels for two season under Khanbis. That’s disappointing to say the least.
Imagine a team right now that hadn’t wasted nearly all of two full drafts and off-seasons chasing low ceiling low floor prospects? Would anyone be worried about losing the Cassell pick next spring? Trick question! We would have already lost the pick last year …
Even in the 09 draft
This year Rick Adelman will teach Wolves fans about the wonders of a Kevin Love led pick and roll. He’s been an awesomely amazing player since UCLA and a killer pnr guy since is first half season with the Wolves. God forbid they look for o pointmguard who can hit 3s. (and this doesnt mean I dont like Rubio… it’s more about drafting well)
It looks like the non-Princeton parts of the offense
will largely be PnRs (good) and, at least for now, ISOs for Beasley (a really, really bad idea). As bad as the ISOs for Beasley are they are probably still a better option than dumping the ball to Darko.
I’m not particularly sold on a big improvement defensively but I expect a huge offensive improvement from Adelman realizing something really, really obvious: Love is a preposterously efficient offensive force and nobody on the rest of the roster is in his league. Its two games and all but 28, 21 and 5 per 36 is probably a good indication that Love wasn’t near his ceiling last October – a view shared by the Wolves front office and a whole lot of posters here. And, no there was nothing to it besides “looks the part” thinking.
The wing positions are still an abomination, aren't they?
The failure to come up with even the hint of a solution to this after 3 years is perhaps the biggest indictment of Kahn.
As a result, we get Beasley ISOs. Which is not good. But what else are you going to do with the guy if he’s on your roster? It’s not as if options abound.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
It depends on how much they play Barea at the two I suppose
and if they get anything from Martell. But as of right now it is pretty much a slap in the face to the better thinking part of the fan base that we are likely to be subjected to another season of 5000+ minutes for Wayne, Wes and Beasley at a combined 10M plus while guys like this who is definitely better than Wayne and Wes are likely ever to be get signed for 2.5M.
thoroughly depressing
and it’s such an abdication of responsibility. Talk about a simple way to improve; finding a couple of guys who can give you 3000+ minutes at the 2 at something better than replacement level can’t be impossible. Hopefully Barea works out in that role.
By the way, always meant to ask if you are in fact a fan or student of the red panda?
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
Not a student
I just dig them and used to have staring contests with the one in the Lincoln Park Zoo. The educational background is Applied Math with Econ at University of Chicago and then, accidentally but rather luckily never having gone to law school.
I congratulate you
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
Reggie Williams
I like his game. I’m tired of Wes.
I like the idea of playing Rubio and Barea together a significant amount, but we should probably have a full size shooting guard on the roster that doesn’t suck.
Well I agree that we should have gone after quality wings
and cut bait with Wes, Wayne and probably Beasley the way we did with Lazar. That being said I still think we’ll improve considerably offensively in spit of poor personnel decisions. Adelman can’t affect the allocation of minutes as much as he would probably like (with average wing play we are a .500 team if Love plays 2800 minutes) but what he can, and almost certainly will do is stop misusing possessions within those minutes. So that means a lot more of running the offense through Love (again, an offensive force) and a lot less through basically everyone else (not all of whom are horrible offensively although many are but all of whom are much much worse than Love.)
When feral joked about the drinking game where we drink every time Adelman does the right (and obvious thing) I might die. Its been obvious for two full seasons that the path was to run through Love until he fell down. Utterly fracking obvious – bring in a HOF coach and he’ll realize the fracking obvious
Very much agree
Although I still hold out some possibly irrational hope for Beasley. I’ve got a soft spot for that guy.
We need to trade Wes while he’s still maybe got some #4 pick shine to somebody.
Seeing the obvious (or at least not obviously terrible) strategies taking place on both ends of the floor is going to be so refreshing.
Wes probably doesn't have any 4 pick shine left
Midway through his second year Joe Alexander who was certainly not much worse than Wes is (and will likely continue to be) became a salary throw in a deal. When you can’t play and is really really obvious to everyone except your team’s homerish fans and your supporters from your college team. It is not a certainty that Wes won’t ever be worthy of the minutes he was gifted last year and will be gifted this year but it is highly highly likely. Roster spots and dollars are scarce resources in the NBA – using them on players like Wes and Wayne is imprudent. It is exactly why the Wolves stink.
you're probably right
but supposedly Flynn was worth the #10 pick after a pretty lousy rookie season. I guess I’m hoping we can find a sucker.
Its kind of apples to orangutans
Flynn wasn’t good but he was much, much better than Wes and years younger. Additionally his problems (shot selection and TOs) are things widely viewed as acceptable/correctable.
heck if it were confirmed that Flynn was increedibly dinged up last year I would say there is probably 80% or better chance that Flynn will be a better player going forward than Wes (or Wayne for that matter).
Sounds to me like you're just giving other Front Offices more credit
I’d just be curious to know what the best offer would be for Wes right now. Maybe it’s nothing.
On the Flynn subject, he’s probably my least favorite Timberwolf of all time. I think he’s been bad in ways no one has even figured out how to measure yet. Wes is mostly bad because he doesn’t do anything. Flynn left a trail of destruction in his wake. Also seemed like a real doucher, Wes seems like a decent guy.
I should add
that I’m not in favor of “bottoming out” for multiple years like the Wolves. I just don’t necessarily think it’s dumb to dismantle a team for some young players and draft picks and let them stink for a year before improving,
getting the 2 pick with a draft that has a superstar....
…..os complete luck that cannont be planned for. Lets hope that the Wolves do awesome this year. The NOLA pick is tuen in the teens and they then draft an unkown….the point here is that you never know anything bit what you have.
Sure
But they could have tried to win right away with Durant by keeping Rashard and Ray Allen, along with signing a vet or two.
I know that you can only know what you have, but I’d argue that sometimes it’s better to have more uncertainty with the possibility for greater things. If you know that you’re going to struggle to be .500 with some decent veterans, I’m totally fine with cashing out for draft picks. Yeah, the results are more volatile, but how is that a bad thing? The vets are likely declining in value every year anyway.
I think collecting good players and waiting for a chance to cash in while staying mediocre (like the Rockets) can be a good strategy sometimes. I think going super young and collecting a lot of high draft picks like the Thunder can also work if things go right.
I don’t think the Wolves’ problem is that they bottomed out. It’s that they didn’t an incredibly bad job of using the assets they collected. Having terrible luck in the lotto didn’t help either.
They had no business bottoming out as long as they have.
And that’s probably the issue. The rebuild after KG left should have taken less time, and we honestly don’t have anything concrete yet… It’s a defeatist attitude, but we are in MN. This last off season should be evidence enough, no star will force their way here. Think we can build a champion signing aaron affalo for $9m a season?
You need to collect some amount of stars – not role players – to win. And I don’t see any option to do so here besides the draft. And that strategy is fairly poor if you don’t get lucky or smart in the draft.
They didn't bottom out
They had a 30-win team (like the Wolves) and got lucky in the lottery to get Durant. It wasn’t until they got #2 that they traded Ray Allen and let Rashard Lewis walk (which most sane teams would’ve done once they saw Orlando’s offer). They then chose the wrong coach, stunk during a depressing season in a lame-duck city, made a bold pick at #4, stunk some more, fired their coach, and got better.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 23, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
They didn't bottom out to get Durant
But they did bottom out. Trading Ray Allen and neglecting to go after good players in FA that year is a pretty clear signal to me that they weren’t trying to win a lot of games right away. Jeff Green actually turned out to be a pretty awful value for Ray Allen, but I don’t think that team would have Westbrook and Harden right now if they didn’t tear it down and rebuild around Durant.
I’m not saying it’s the only way to rebuild, but I really do think that trading vets for picks and being lousy for a year or two can be a good idea. NOT THE WAY THE WOLVES DID IT, but it can work.
It’s also why I think the Hornets did much, much better with the LAC deal than the LAL offer.In my opinion it’s a smarter franchise move to try build around Gordon, a few young guys and some high draft picks than to try grind into the playoffs for a few years with Martin, Scola and Odom. More uncertainty and more potential (yes, that dirty word) is OK.
I agree with some of what you say
Though in the end, Allen turned out to be Kendrick Perkins (who in hindsight I wish the Wolves would’ve pressed for with Rondo in the KG trade instead of Big Al). The Hornets also chose the right offer IMO. The most important aspect of this, though, is that they were going to get Durant before they made these other moves. Having 2 of Green/Yi/Corey Brewer/Joakim Noah is a different outlook on the future.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 23, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
I don’t advocate some sort of “suck until you draft a superstar” strategy, because you can suck a long, long time if you wait for that to happen. If the Sonics hadn’t lucked into Durant, I’m not sure trading Allen would have been the way to go.
It just depends on the situation. I think good GMs will almost always try to win games in the current season, but occasionally if the opportunity to build something great comes along will sacrifice some wins.
The NOLA deal will be interesting
I think they could have done a lot more with the Laker/Houston deal on a number of levels.
First, the Laker deal netted them a better 2011/12 team. Dragic, Martin, Odom + Scola is a haul and would have kept them in playoff contention.
Second, they could have sold off Martin, Odom, and Scola in secondary deals 1/2 way through the season for picks and/or younger players.
Gordon is a nice player. Aminu could be a nice player. Kaman will probably be let go. The Wolves pick could net a nice player.
Draft picks are the life blood of teams like the Wolves and Hornets, but so is keeping above average players if you can get a hold of them. The Laker deal netted the Hornets 3 above average players. The Clips deal brought them Eric Gordon and an expensive and often hurt center that probably won’t be resigned. Could Aminu get really good? Maybe. Could the Wolves pick be a great player? Maybe, but probably not as likely as Player X ending up being as good as any one of the Martin/Odom/Scola trio.
I think the most important thing here, and maybe something that could be agreed upon, is that the most important thing for any franchise is getting smart people to make the decisions. I trust Dell Demps making basketball decisions for a team he’s close to and wants to win on this front more than I do David Stern making business decisions for a property he wants to sell.
Here's a comp..
…for 6 of the players in the deals.
Ranks in ws/48:
1- Odom
2- Martin
3- Gordon
4- Scola
5- Kaman
6- Aminu
PER flips Martin and Odom.
Draft picks are overvalued when compared to a living breathing above average player (especially when they’re not the top pick, or even a top 5 pick). Another overlooked part of the Laker deal is the size and efficiency picked up by the Hornets.
Another thing that was overlooked: The Lakers gave up Pau Gasol and Lamar Odom for Chris Paul. That’s crazy. They gave up 2 players that produced at or very close to Chris Paul levels for Chris Paul. Small market Western Conference teams should have been begging for that deal to happen. A broken Kobe Bryant without 2 of his most skilled teammates + Chris Paul and nobody else that matters = awesomeness for the rest of the league.
NOLA took the deal that relies the most on “potential” while turning up their noses (actually, they didn’t—Stern did) at 3 above average performers. They got 1 above average performer in return and a chance at getting a top 5 pick that maybe some day will turn into a player as good as Martin, Scola, or Odom.
Here's a good article on the topic over at True Hoop
http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/34310/let-em-walk
NBA Geek responds (well) here:
Now quick, name six “rebuilding teams” that went from zero to contender without luckboxing the #1 pick. What I find especially funny is everyone claiming that they want to use “the OKC model”. You know what you need to use that model? Sam ****ing Presti. The OKC model is nothing special, it’s just “being better at evaluating talent than all the conventional-wisdom pundits on the other teams”. The reason it works is because a) Presti is smart and b) there are teams like the Celtics run by GMs dumb enough to think that Jeff Green is good who are willing to trade with the smart Sam Presti. It should be immediately obvious why this is not going to work for everyone else
He even throws in some Wolves stuff:
he perennial first-round-losers Minnesota (the very definition of the type of team that Arnovitz dreads) grabbed both Cassell and Sprewell in 2003 for basically a bunch of expiring deals, and won 61 games in a ridiculously tough western conference. If Cassell had not gone down, I’m about certain they would have defeated the Lakers that year — the Kings team they beat in the semis was a better team than that Laker team. Admittedly the Wolves had some luck that year with Wally’s injury, he was terrible but got lots of minutes, but his injury forced management to play the fantastic Fred Hoiberg lots of minutes instead.
Also, this post really does a good job of explaining a few points I make over and over and over and over:
And by the way, I hate to break it to you folks, but this is NOT the OKC strategy, lol. Nearly every move Sam Presti has made was one that made his team better. The only trade I can think of where Presti may have traded “for the future” was the Ray Allen trade. Which, by the way, he did not make during a year in which they had the potential to become a playoff team. The OKC strategy was not “let’s blow shit up and see what happens”, it was “let’s try to make smart moves that incrementally improve us”. And those smart moves are not about collecting trade pieces (so that you can make future trades for….more trade…pieces…? Oh, wait, that’s the KAAAAAHN model!), it’s about acquiring undervalued players (K. Perkins, Kurt Thomas, James Harden, Serge Ibaka, Thabo Sefolosha) and finding suckers to take your overvalued ones (Jeff Green). With Durant, OKC got very lucky; he was not part of “the plan”. He’s not in the business of hoarding assets like they are wealth; he’s trying to make his team better. And they didn’t go from 25 wins to contender in one leap, either.
Amen.
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 23, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Short shelf life. If New Orleans had even one good young player, I would think differently about the LAL deal. Martin is extraordinarily injury prone, and Odom and Scola are both 31. That team has approximately 0% chance of winning a title now, and nowhere to go but down with their complete lack of young talent.
By being lousy this year, they’re essentially going to have an extra lottery pick instead of a mid to late first rounder. I’d take Gordon, Aminu, and two lottery picks in a strong draft over a couple years of decent basketball with no upside. You’re almost certainly looking at a very bad basketball team sometime in the next few years, why not let it be now? There’s certainly a legitimate argument to be made to take the good season now, and you made the argument well. I hope I’m articulating the other side reasonably.
Look, I’m not of the mindset that you either have to compete for a championship or try to be the worst in the league. I love what Denver did in trading away Carmelo and maintaining a competitive team. The difference is that they got players that will be good for years.
I think the OKC thing is doing nothing but confusing the issue. I know they got lucky by getting Durant, and that they have a very smart GM. However, knowing that he had a stud, he built the core of the team through the draft rather than trying to win some more games over the next couple years with Ray Allen. Allen wasn’t just traded for the #5 pick, he was traded so that they’d have another shot at a high draft pick the following year(s), and a shot to line up some core players’ primes with Durant.
This is the KG deal all over again
They get younger guys with “potential” and picks that could end up as Johnny Flynn. They had a chance to replace Paul with 3 guys who help produce wins. They traded it for 1 guy who helps produce wins and a chance at a pick that may not even be in the top 5. What are the historical production values for picks out of the top 3? The average career arc of a #3 pick is the production of Jerry Stackhouse. The #2 pick has even less production over the course of time. It’s a lotto built on a lotto. The idea that this pick and Aminu are somehow more conducive to selling a NOLA based franchise is iffy at best.
I just don’t think anyone can make deals for the future. You get what you can in the here and now. Denver got the best players they could up front. As an added bonus, they’re both young and productive. Unless NOLA lands the top pick the chances of them tanking to win are slim. The chances of them prolonging the misery go up if they don’t.
Bottoming out
Bulls=Rose
Magic=Howard
Cavs=James
Miami=Wade
Sonics/Thunder=Durant/Westbrook
You’re precious Rockets=Yao
You have absolutely the right to not believe in bottoming out, but .500 gets you nowhere in the NBA. These teams all have two things in common, they all at one point where one of the 5 worst teams in the NBA before the respective stars showed up and they all reached their conference finals at a minimum.
Wolves have taken a long long time to do get back up and most of that is because of their mismanagement.
I would never say you automatically tank, but I can’t disagree more with trying to aqcuire a team like Scola, Martin, Lowrey, Dalambert to win 37-44 games. All veteran’s, none of them overly special.
I agree you try to draft and make moves for young talent (and hell older talent that fits within what you are trying to do) as good as possible and if through the draft process you become a .500 club that’s great, and you have something to build on.
But just getting a roster of 8 players that are OK, but nothing better and are all hovering around 30 does nothing for me.
Darryl Morey himself has said on the B.S. report that in the NBA “you never want to be .500”
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 23, 2011 12:19 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Lowery is pretty solid
and has a chance to be a possible fringe starter in this league.
My point still stands, however I would take Lowery on any rebuilding situation
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 23, 2011 12:21 AM CST up reply actions
Doing the back of the napkin calculation....
…over the past 3 seasons there have been roughly 15 teams each year within 2 games or below .500. That puts us at @ 150 seasons since the 02 draft. Toss in 6 franchise players and that makes for a 4% chance of having access to one of those players.
The Bulls didn't bottom out
They had a disappointing season where they won 33 games, fired their coach, and still ended up 2 games out of the playoffs. They were 11th or something going into the lottery. Seattle won 30-plus games in the year before getting Durant. The Heat didn’t exactly suck into Wade; he was considered a questionable pick, and there were rumors that they considered trading the pick to the Wolves for Wally Szczerbiak. The Rockets finished with 28 wins the year before they got Yao; the Sonics finished with 31 the year before they got Durant, and the Westbrook pick was a shocker. Only the Magic, Cavs, and Spurs have recently successfully tanked into a draft pick; that’s 3 teams since ’97. The rest were either young teams on their way up or veteran teams that had a disappointing season.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 23, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Wait. What are you getting at?
Are you suggesting that teams that draft in the 20’s are the teams that ignore potential?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I'm getting at.....
…that you are trying to define something that has no real meaning. There is no such thing as potential. Everybody drafts who they think is the best player or the best value. The Rockets dont ignore “potential”.
Players exist on varrying scales of good (in the case of Flynn, bad). Think of each player also existing within a category of player—defensive specialists, rebounders, scorers, etc. Most players get better at rheir craft over time. Precious few become a different type of player and/or radically improve to jump to an unimagined spectrum of good (or in Flynn’s case, bad).
Most often, when I hear the word “potential” it is associated with people wanting players to either change types or blast themselves into an area of production that has no basis in their body of work. More often than not, these hopes and wishes are associated with players who possess above average length and/or athleticism. In other words, Wes Johnson has just as much “potential” to develop into a turtle than he does a competent starting shooting guard.
Instead, the way to look at a player like this is to measure his college production and make an educated guess as to how much of his game can translate to the pros and in what capacity? Whatmparts of his game could grow in the pros and does this jive with anything he showed at Syracuse?
by Stop-n-Pop on Dec 22, 2011 6:14 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I think that's a pretty succint way to put it
Instead, the way to look at a player like this is to measure his college production and make an educated guess as to how much of his game can translate to the pros and in what capacity? Whatmparts of his game could grow in the pros and does this jive with anything he showed at Syracuse?
And with Wes we now have NBA minutes as well that indicate he effectively has no chance to ever be above average in the NBA. Basically the people arguing for giving Wes (or Wayne for that matter) more time are arguing that he’s going to be exceptional because they perceive he had some horrible experience his rookie year under Rambis. The question is, how long will it take those people to admit he’s absolutely killing the team and whether AdelKhan will be quicker to realize the obvious.
Conclusions from the preseason
1) Love is even better than last year. He has transformed his body, improved his game, he has talked about eating healthier and sleeping better. He seems more focused. What separates the good players from the great players is usually their drive, commitment to the game, and desire to get better. If he keeps the drive he could be a superstar.
2) Beasley is better. He has lost a little weight and seems more focused. He seems to be trying to make some of the changes to his game that we all have been suggesting. If he can mature and continue to improve he will be a very good player.
3) Wes Johnson is not now or will he ever be a guard. He is actually a undersized 3/4. He should be Beasley’s backup at the 3.
4) Derrick Williams is not a 3 he is a four and will be a very good one. We are eventually going to have to play he and Love together a lot or move him.
5) Ricky is going to be at least a competent starting level NBA point guard this year with the potential for more. He needs to play with the starters who are going to catch and convert his passes.
6) Luke should be our starting 2 guard, with Ricky controlling the ball he could be a devastating catch and shoot guard. Teamed with Ricky they are not a terribly undersized back court.
Williams is good insurance in case they can't keep Love.
and have to trade Love.
Also I think the 3 of them can play together offensively
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Dec 22, 2011 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
You had me until #6
The first game with the Bucks simply blew my mind. Berea and Ricky with three (3) three-point shooters on the floor was exhilarating. Luke is a backup.
I posted below, Wes is definitely not a 4
he is a small forward. However, I think you can put him alongside Rubio in the backcourt because Rubio will be ball dominant. Wes rebounds very well and guards well. He appears to my untrained eyes to be the best defensive player on the wolves team and an excellent rebounder, even when he is on the perimeter. So in general, I agree that Wes should be Beasley’s backup at the 3, however, I also believe you could play him at the 2 with Rubio.
If you put luke on the second squad
he will try to create all the offense himself. He is better off the ball as a spot-up shooter.
by xraraavis on Dec 22, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
finding Wes a role as a 3
I think will be one of this seasons most important sub-plots.
can he get the part.
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on Dec 22, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
Re: Backcourt nickname.
I submit “The Legion of Doom,” with Ricky as “Hawk” and Barea as “Animal.”
(I’d suggest “The Road Warriors,” but I know they’ll be warriors at home, too.)
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
Nothing says Doom...
Like Rubio and Barea:) I like the idea of sticking in the wrestling genre for knicknames.
Ricky Flair is perfect but as a pair they seem more like the Midnight Rockers, Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty.
by fanslaststand on Dec 22, 2011 11:48 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
O J Mayo
played only nine minutes last night. Hmm. The buzz prior about Mayo earlier in the week was that he has gotten his head straight, etc., etc.
I want him right now for Randolph
seems like it would work so well for us at least
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
So the Cleveland clinic just cleared the Chuck Wagon to play basketball.
I can’t imagine he’d be happy with the Kings after what happened. Just saying…
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Huh, that's strange.
I’d be a little paranoid about the heart thing, even after the clean bill of health.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
medicine
is often a mix of subjective and objective findings.
What is concerning to one physician is not necessarily concerning to another, and if you get enough second opinions, you will find a doc willing to agree with you for most ambigious matters.
there’s also a difference between an academic physician and a team physician who’s trying to ensure a 20 million dollar decision.
and it's
really difficult to make any kind of informed decision without having the actual medical information, it’s complete speculation.
If something was there
They would have found it. Sign him and trade Pek!
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Dec 22, 2011 12:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
The twitter reports have his agent saying he's open to Sacramento, Minnesota, Houston and San Antonio.
I’d call it a long shot, but who knows.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Hell, let's get him!
I was so disappointed when he chose to go to Sacto.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 22, 2011 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
Williams (poor man's)comparison player
is Shawn Marion. Can slash and finish, and make the perimeter shot. I think Dwill’s upside is better than Marion because of body type and size, shooting technique, and is a better ball handler. He is a near star. If you can look past the success of a certain player, DWill’s eyeball comp could be Blake Griffin. Very similar, with Blake being a bit bigger and better in the post, and DWill being a better shooter and ball handler. Let’s see if it plays out that well….
Blake Griffin
I don’t know if DW has ball handling advantage over Griffin. I was watching the LAC/LAL game and Griffin is incredible with his ball handling – taking it up, in the post, and mid-range. Griffin is still improving, too. If DW could be as big of a threat as Griffin, watch out NBA world.
by Jordan Seiffert on Dec 22, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions
Marion..
stole the ball, blocked shots, and rebounded and defended ferociously for an undersized guy. Also, his perimeter J has always been suspect, and he’s never been a great creator. Not sure how he’s a comparison either for style or results. In his prime Marion was very unique.
If we got close to prime-era-Marion-type play from Derrick
He’s a great pick. Derrick is likely the better shooter, but he’ll have a while to go to touch Marion’s rebounding and defense.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
Close to the same shot
Not sure you’ve all noticed, but DW shoots from his chest, sort of. Maybe that’s an illusion I’m picking up, but my first thought was that it had a little bit in common with Marion’s.
You can't dust for vomit.
Hmm...
Not really seeing it. DW’s shot is mildly unconventional, but I’ve never seen anyone shoot like Marion.
I also just don’t see the general comparison between their games at all. Marion’s value was as a very versatile, very good defender, and a good finisher and crafty player off the ball. Williams strength is supposed to be efficient scoring and shot creation.
If DW is ever as effective as prime Marion, I’d be more than thrilled. I loved his game. I’m optimistic about D-Will but I don’t see the resemblance.
Agree
I don’t see anything remotely close between D-Will and Marion. Nothing. Nada. Zero. This site has members that have practically done PhD-quality research on D-Will (was it VJ?) and concluded that this guy will not make his living being a jack-of-all trades stat stuffer like Marion.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 22, 2011 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
Dang it, Beasley
Would someone please teach Michael to draw-and-kick?
Shades of last season, Michael Beasley (one of my faves) continues to drive into the lane in a worthless attempt to get to the rim with three opposing players in the way. Turnovers ensue. Need to stop that chit!
Poor AR looks lost out there. Not enough PT and a lot of depth unless he can move the to the 5. Last night he was trying so hard to impress, working his tail off, but he still looked lost.
Where there is a D-Williams, there is a way
You realize that Malcolm Lee
Is 10x better than Yawny Flynn on his best day.
I attribute the excessive TOs to lack of familiarity with his team mates in game situations. On at least one occasion, the Wolf team mate (Beasley?) called for the ball from Lee even though he hadn’t positioned himself (versus his opponent) to receive the ball. Lazy.
Where there is a D-Williams, there is a way
He didn't look like a point guard
He can play the point if needed but he looks like a natural two guard. I think he will have a chance to play this year if Adelmann does the right thing and switches Wes to Beasley’s Backup.
The wolves will be as good as
Rubio and Barea. Last night (and last season) showed that this team is in great need of facilitators. Especially players like Wes, who hasn’t been terrible, but can only be a two guard alongside a ball dominant 1, like Rubio.
Sure, for where he was drafted, there is disappointment with Wes, I get that. I wanted to take Cousins and still do. However, Rubio and Barea will cover Wes’ weaknesses and play to his strengths. I think he is one of the best, if not the best defensive player on the wolves and he rebounds very well for a 3/2. I would not trade Wes Johnson unless the wolves get a great offer.
If Wes could even meet the minimal expectation
of being a guy who can stand around and hit open jumpers when called upon (and defend a little), that’d be good at this point. I just noticed an interesting comparison from last year. Wes had a lower FG%, 3PT% and FT% than Telfair. A shooting specialist should not be looking up at Telfair in the stats rankings.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 11:53 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Wes will be a better shooter this season
because Rubio and Barea will get him open looks. He cannot create his own shot (or dribble a basketball for that matter). Last year he needed to create his own shot and that was a disaster. He hopefully will not need to do that this year. I admit that Wes is limited, however his strengths of defense and rebounding from the backcourt position is something the wolves desperately need to be successful.
I hope so,
but Iowa State Wes was a 0.316 3-point shooter. He might just not be as good a shooter as it looks like he ought to be.
Are there stats (Synergy?) on Wes’ FG% on uncontested shots last year? It would be interesting to compare that to other players, because it’d be hard to argue that missing those was Rambis’ fault.
by Madison Dan on Dec 22, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
The example I always think of now is the pre-draft workout last year.
We had this video, and several people were talking about his wonderful, pretty form, and I casually tossed in that he was missing most of the shots…. And people said that was a snarky remark.
But he was missing all the shots!
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Dec 22, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Negative reality
wins you few fans on this site.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
Interesting dichotomy on this site
between the optimists and pessimists. Seems like each side thinks the other dominates the board.
PD is just being modest and trying to pretend like he's not one of the most
popular posters on this site. If he has “few fans on this site”, then Justin Bieber only has a “modest teenage female following”.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
He was asked
To just camp at the line in Iowa. He needs to drive.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Dec 22, 2011 12:37 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
He really is not a good rebounder
at least, he hasn’t been.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 22, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
We also can't forget
That players who are drafted at the age of 23 don’t exactly have the most untapped potential. He’s older than Kevin and Michael already. Ailuridae has pointed out that the precedent for players drafted at such a late age is not good.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
I guess I've argued myself into the same conclusion
if Malcolm lee can defend and rebound from the 2 position and dribble and shoot, why play Wes? Wes needs to distinguish himself or indeed the wolves need to get something valuable for him.
This team has to be coached through games like this...
If they want to have similar results during the regular season. Last night, they played hard and were rewarded with it at the end, but I’m hoping they’re able to do some things schematically to reduce the likelihood of so many turnovers and a less-efficient offense. Ultimately, they have to be more efficient at running their sets when Barea and Rubio aren’t available, because Adelman is calling plays that will get guys open looks if the timing of the play is good. Also, dribble handoffs can help reduce turnovers, but their focus has to be ramped up soon; a team shouldn’t throw entry passes out of bounds and have their point guard get picked while he’s bringing the ball up.
Their effort on defense, though, has to be complimented. Weakside blocked shots, knocking away interior passes, guards/wings crashing the boards are all a good sign and one of the main reasons why they kept last night’s game close. The Bucks won’t come close to getting that kind of outside shooting from the likes of Gooden and Mbah a Moute on a consistent basis, and their performance balanced out the terrible FT shooting. Those were the shots the Wolves wanted them to take, which is a step up from last year.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 22, 2011 11:53 AM CST reply actions
Outside shooting
When did Gooden start shooting threes? Is that normal?
I s’pose I could look up the stats, but that’s a lot less fun than just wondering.
I was surprised by both taking and making so many
Those are the types of shots that always seemed to go during a close loss to a team they should beat or a blowout loss.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 22, 2011 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
The Bucks announcers
said that he’s been working on his shot (and that he needed to). Of course, they said a lot of other stupid crap, so I’m not sure I ought to be quoting them.
An ugly game
which, I guess, is to be expected in Milwaukee’s gym. While this was a luckier-than-lucky win (doesn’t Skiles burn a timeout or two during that meltdown if this is regular season?) it was encouraging that the Wolves were in it in the 4th Quarter without good play from anybody other than Love.
Is this the Luke Ridnour we’re getting this year? Baiting Brandon Jennings into successful steal attempts and chucking up horrible shots at key moments? Yeesh. Bring back Rubio!
What is Scott Skiles's M.O. in the preseason?
Based on seeing their team twice, I don’t really know if he’s apt to throw collections of Leuer types out there and see what happens, or trying to put in his system and get them playing defensive ball together, or what exactly. The Bucks didn’t look to be doing much that was constructive.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Hard to say
but it seemed like, in the first half at least, S-Jack’s presence made a difference from one game to the next. It would seem like incorporating him into their offense would make sense.
I hope this was solely due to no Rubio, but the Bucks made entry passes a lot more difficult, last night. For all of Malcolm Lee’s better-then-expected moments, he didn’t have an easy time making that first pass to get things rollin’.
Our announcers were funny, did you catch that?
Basically they said Stephen Jackson was a good presence on teams in the first year he was there. After that, not so much.
Sammy Cassell’s heir.
"Opinion ...a confession."
I have a hard time thinking that Jackson will be a good presence this year.
Especially if they start losing early
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Someone needs to tie down the cannons on the Bucks' deck.
Unfortunately their coach is more one to light fuses.
"Opinion ...a confession."
About their coach
I liked this piece from Klosterman, where he had this to say about his 43rd-ranked college baller:
43. Scott Skiles (Michigan State, 1982-1986): “You know, there is no way I would have Scott Skiles on this team,” Bob Knight told his Hoosier roster in 1986. “But Scott Skiles is tougher than every single one of you.” Scotty was arrested three times during college (once for weed, once for cocaine possession, and once for a DUI). He was a problem, but mostly for people who tried to guard him and inevitably failed. It almost seemed like he vandalized opponents. His pro career was statistically relevant (he had 30 assists in one night for the Magic, which is still a record), but it’s his hard-partying college days that matter more.
by Andy G on Dec 22, 2011 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Whoa. Volatile.
He’s going to have another Bulls Headband moment, here. Remember that? Wouldn’t let Big Ben wear his headbands. Team rules. Made a confrontation of it.
"Opinion ...a confession."
True story:
I’m in college, and Skiles and the Spartans are coming to town. We take up our usual seats along the baseline below the bucket, and proceed to raz the crap out of Skiles every time he touches the ball. Surprisingly, it didn’t faze him! and with MSU up by 15, Skiles has, like, 30 points with a few minutes left. MSU has the ball on offense on our end, and a missed shot caroms off the rim and towards the sidelines. Skiles runs it down just before it goes out of bounce, grabs the ball and pivots back toward the basket. He looks at us and says, “Hey—guys!” and then swishes a 20-footer.
It wasn’t my most embarrassing moment in college, but it definitely ranked in the Top 100.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
you, attended to college?
Too hot to handle, too cold to hold
They're called the Ghostbusters and they're in control
Hey ___Guys!
Not Spartan Guys since you were in the opposing team crowd.
I’m also eliminating Boilermaker and Gopher and Badger and Hoosier and Wolverine as options.
What I’m left with is vaguely computer related, Byte me?
Timberwolves 2011:
Kahnceptual Performance Art
I'm torn with this matchup
My uncle teaches at MSU and Steve Smith killed my undergrad school. What to do?!
What're the chances...
Jackson goes all Spreewell v. Carlesimo on Skiles by the end of the season? He had a crazy look in his eye last night.
My money's on Skiles
You can't dust for vomit.
by twinstalker on Dec 22, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He won't cower like Carlesimo but, ummm....
Pretty sure he isn’t messing with Metta World Peace’s old accomplice.
I done re-reached 1000 comments.
by BrettAhlgren on Dec 22, 2011 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
"For all of Malcolm Lee’s better-then-expected moments, he didn’t have an easy time making that first pass to get things rollin’."
There were a few moments there where I thought we were running Tubby’s offense.
You can't dust for vomit.
Speaking of Ugly:
I’m surprised Wayne Ellington didn’t get a specific mention for the load he dropped out on the court in that first half last night. That was putrid.
Wow. Brook Lopez broke a bone in his foot.
The Nets could be epically bad this season. It’s D-Will and a whole lotta nothing.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Boy...
That makes that Dwight Howard trade a little harder to wrap up, doesn’t it?
Given the pace of things like the 'Melo trade last year, teams can't really hold out their players to prevent injury.
We’ve gotta spend a good six months or so warming up to the exchange.
Maybe this explains Avery Johnson’s approach to Brook last year, though. He had him playing outside like Keith VanHorn, to keep the potential trade commodity from getting banged up. You think?
"Opinion ...a confession."
Seriously, other than Lopez and Williams, this is the Nets' roster:
Marshon Brooks
Jordan Farmar
Sundiata Gaines
Stephen Graham
Dennis Horner
Damion James
Anthony Morrow
Johan Petro
Ime Udoka
Jordan/Shawne/Shelden Williams
Last year’s Wolves were an all-star team compared to that roster.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
Kim Kardashian said the same thing
on her wedding day.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
Looks like we'll get to find out
whether Marshon Brooks can play. I’m not sorry we passed on him, but it’ll be an interesting story to watch. One of the only interesting things about the Nets.
As interesting as the "Can Cris Douglas-Roberts play?" storylines of previous years?
That’ll keep the fans coming in.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Well, I guess I'm biased toward "interesting"
because he and Burks were two of the potential solutions to our lack of a SG.
Last night:
Brooks: 25 minutes, 8 points on 4-14 shooting, 5 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 turnovers.
Burks: 13 minutes, 1 point on 0-8 shooting, 0 rebounds, 0 assists, 0 turnovers.
Not much to go on, yet, but it’s always good to remember that sometimes the correct answer is “none of the above”.
They just added Stevenson and Okur
Not world changers but helpful nonetheless. When Lopez comes back, a Lopez/Okur front court will be interesting (assuming Okur doesn’t get hurt himself). Williams-Stevenson-Okur-Lopez is a decent core (just with this season in mind). SF is a problem, but they should challenge for the playoffs in the east.
by deus04 on Dec 23, 2011 12:44 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I am amazed at how long it took someone to pick up Stevenson
The guy is a defensive specialist that can shoot 3s. Or as Bill Simmons put it…
The only thing that stops LeBron better than DeShawn Stevenson is the fourth quarter.
That’s gotta be worth something to an Eastern conference team who needs a wing.
So they traded the farm for D-Will going into a lock out without an extension.....
Struck out in free agency….
Were accused of tampering with Howard before the matter was dropped…
Amnestied last year’s big signing of Outlaw….
Refused to give Humphries a multi-year deal…..
And have their only young player of real promise a regressing Lopez break a foot bone….
I can’t help, but wonder what was the Vegas under three weeks ago for this team…
YIKES
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
"The Farm":
Favors
Devin Harris
Two firsts
$
I’d still do that from New Jersey’s side.
"Opinion ...a confession."
It's always been a gamble.
We can’t really see who wins this until Williams resigns/walks and or we get a couple more years of play out of Favors.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I think with the new CBA, you're going to see a lot of that.
Two superstars and a lot of meh. To wit (because I can’t help it) the Lakers w/o Kobe and Gasol:
Gerald Green
Andrew Bynum (Not a superstar, IMHO)
Metta World Peace
Jason Kapono
Luke Walton
Steve Blake
Derek Fisher
Matt Barnes
Eric Millsap
Josh McRoberts
Devin Ebanks
Derrick Caracter
Troy Murphy
Gerald Green's on the Lakers' roster?!?
You’re not including the mascots who make the cool trampoline dunks on this list, are you?
"Opinion ...a confession."
Yup.
He’s right there on the Lakers roster along with all those other guys, two superstars and some other flotsam and jetsam I didn’t even bother to list. I’d say I wish I were making it up that Gerald Green is on the Lakers’ roster, but no, I don’t wish that at all. His presence, along with Luke Walton’s, is the ultimate testament to Meh.
Granted...
I am taking this from the ESPN NBA trade Machine, and Green is fighting to make the team, but still. He signed with the Lakers and is a camp invite. That’s where they’re at right now.
If youre like me and easily entertained
Here’s the wolves wildin out at a scrimmage a few days ago – alley oops, dunks, and the rookies forced to sing songs, etc.
Man...
I would love to hear what it would take to pry Evan Turner away from the 76ers.
I still feel like he’s going to improve over the next couple of years and would provide defense, rebounding, facilitating, ball-handling, etc.
Meanwhile, Love, DWill and Beas can handle the scoring while Rubio sets everything up.
Is there any combination of our players/assets that you think they’d consider outside of the 4 players I just mentioned?
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
I think Turner's going to be
a better player than Wes will be for the Wolves. But the addition of Rubio dims my attraction for an all-arounder like Turner.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
Why do you think he will?
Their numbers are nearly identical in their suckiness.
Ball-handling forwards rarely do well unless their name is lebron.
Overall,
Turner’s numbers are a little better, and he’s a year younger.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
Its pretty simple really
Turner does everything except score pretty well. And a huge part of his scoring ineptitude was that he had a completely broken jump shot. While Wes isn’t good off the ball and is an inefficient scorer despite having a reliable jump shot.
Can't
we just get Iggy? I think I’d rather have All-NBA level defense and smart play than…ET.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Dec 22, 2011 11:06 PM CST up reply actions
It seems
destined to happen, doesn’t it?
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
I'm pro Iggy
IF and after the Beasley and/or Wes Johnson test drive fails.
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on Dec 23, 2011 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
Players can improve
Here’s a list of every player who finished a season with a WS/48 the same as or lower than Wes. Some names from that list: Stephen Jackson, Jason Williams, Mo Williams (last year), Zach Randolph, Rip Hamilton, Monta Ellis. I’m not saying that Wes is going to follow in the footsteps of any of those players, but it also seems rash to judge a player on one season with a bad team and worse coach and two preseason games that were intended to be one big experiment (with the exception of the last 5 minutes of the game at Milwaukee). The problem with Wes is that for many, he doesn’t pass the stats test or the eye test, and they haven’t figured out a way to maximize his talents yet because the coaching staff’s focus is clearly on breaking bad habits, which is a much more daunting task than it should be for pro basketball players.
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on Dec 23, 2011 10:48 AM CST reply actions
For some reason your link isn't working for me,
but my problem with your list is that age as a rookie seems to matter a lot. Really, only Stephen Jackson is comparable to Wes in terms of age as a rookie plus rookie performance (you allow the bad season to happen any time). Jason Williams was as old, but did better as a rookie. Here’s another comparison. (In case it doesn’t work, it’s rookies from 2001 through 2011, age 22 or 23, with at least 700 minutes played and a WS/48 less than or equal to 0.04.) It’s not a super inspiring list.
But yes, Wes could buck the odds and become a much better player. I agree that a problem is with the stats + eye test. Even though his preseason stats were OK and he made some good plays, he still looked like the same tentative Wes most of the time (at least to me).
by Madison Dan on Dec 23, 2011 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
Over/under
On a betting site the Wolves are currently at 23.5 wins.
Who’s taking the over and who’s got the under? I think that’s a good line. Having a tough time making that call.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Dec 23, 2011 11:01 AM CST reply actions
Didn't see that coming.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 23, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He typed it
even before he saw what the actual number was.
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
That is a pretty good line.
It’s the equivalent of 29.2 wins in a full season. As optimistic as I am about some of the off-season changes, that’s a pretty big improvement. Still, I’ll go with the over.
by Madison Dan on Dec 23, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions
Under
Defense will be suspect, they’ll still turn the ball over too much, and Adelman just hasn’t had much time with them. My hope is that they end the season with some decent momentum. I think 20 wins is about right.
by Rascal Flatts on Dec 23, 2011 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
I'd roll with the under
but only because it is +105. -135 isn’t worth it for the over.
It's now -145 for the over
must be getting some action
I'm having a hard time
containing my enthusiasm for the Rubio/Barea combination.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Dec 23, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Me too
I really got the Barea acquisition wrong with my initial reaction. They absolutely needed another ball handler who could run the pick and roll.
I just wish that guy was Ellis
And we no longer felt the need to start Beasley as our inefficient iso scorer.
This should be
a FanPost (with poll!).
As promised, since they resumed playing NBA basketball, I have resumed watching NBA basketball.
over
30 wins for the extra awesome symbolic rebirth win! +2 dexterity +2 charisma +1 hit points +3 magic points and one get put of jail free card.

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