Here's what I propose...
by Oceanary on Feb 21, 2011 7:48 PM CST
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Here's the latest trade chatter, good Hoopusters -- your beloved Timberpups are about to be outsmarted by the New Jersey Nyets.
What do I mean, by that? Well first, let's revisit the last Melo update we had:
A Timberwolves source told ESPN The Magazine's Ric Bucher on Sunday that the team would not approve of a deal where the team received just New York's Randolph and Curry with Brewer and a first-rounder heading to Denver. While these are the names currently being discussed, additional players could be added to make a deal possible, sources said.
Makes perfect sense, right? Who wants to lose Corey, a first rounder, and cut a buyout check just to get Anthony Randolph? I don't. I'm guessing you don't. And I'm pretty sure Glen Taylor doesn't either.
The key to that little quote is the last line. "Additional players could be added". We talked about Danilo Gallinari. I think it's fair to say we generally like the guy. Kalenna Azubuike? Ronny Turiaf? Chris Andersen? Great. Fantastic. And it's happening, except....those additional players are going to the Nets.
EDIT: A 'Melo trade has gone down, but there's conflicting information about what the Wolves' exact role is in it. We're working to verify things
Yesterday, there was some chatter that the Nuggets were demanding Timofy Mozgov be included in the Melo deal.That really struck me as Denver pushing its luck. They were already getting a fantastic deal, and Nene is one of the few players they have that would survive a Melo trade and still be worth building with. But today the pieces fell into place. Per ESPN, the Nets now have a followup deal in the works with the Nuggets. Denver would get Gallinari, Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, and Timofy Mozgov, then immediately send Mozgov and one of the other three (I'm guessing Gallo) to the Nets for a pair of first round picks.
And the Timberwolves? Relegated to the end of the bench. No longer do the Knicks want that late first rounder for Randolph. Instead, they want us to take Eddy Curry off their hands so they can clear the cap space to keep Anthony around.
So here's what it's come down to. The Timberwolves are being asked to pay Eddy Curry to get just Anthony Randolph, while watching a player that would actually make that buyout check worth it (Danilo Gallinari) head off to Newark.
That doesn't make any sense. Kahn is letting himself and the team get kicked to the curb and then just sitting there and watching as the new kid in town swoops in and steals the talent we could and should be getting.
To give an example and build a case for this piece, came up with a deal that not only works, but more or less fulfills everyone's wishes:
To the Knicks:
Carmelo Anthony
Chauncey Billups
Sebastian Telfair
To the Nuggets:
Wilson Chandler
Raymond Felton
Corey Brewer
Timofy Mozgov
To the Timberwolves:
Anthony Randolph
Danilo Gallinari
Eddy Curry
Throw in a Minny 2010 first rounder and NYK 2014 first rounder, and there you go. The Knicks get Carmelo, a couple point guards to hold things down until the seemingly inevitable run at Chris Paul or Deron Williams, and they unload Curry's contract. The Nuggets get cap relief (a major priority for them), the player they wanted all along (Wilson Chandler), a couple picks and the assets to complete their deal with the Nets for more picks. And our Pups get not only Anthony Randolph, but also Gallinari, which makes taking on Curry's debt a lot easier to justify. The only real work needed is convincing the Knicks that Telfair (or Flynn or Ridnour...it works with any one of those three) is worth bringing on board. Doesn't sound too hard.
And this deal can be adjusted in a lot of different ways. Maybe the Nuggets don't want Corey Brewer: you could send them Wes Johnson, or some combination of Ellington, Hayward and Tolliver instead. Maybe the Nets want a little more for their troubles: add Pekovic or Koufos or Ellington to the Knicks' end to be sent on. Maybe the Wolves want more for taking on Curry: have the Knicks throw in Ronny Turiaf or Kalenna Azubuike, or get Chris Andersen from the Nuggets.
The point is, there's no reason why the Wolves should suddenly be on the outside looking in at this. That's absurd, and quite frankly, pretty scary. The team has a chance to be active and really acquire some talent here, and instead it's letting itself get bullied around and cornered into a situation it can't afford to be in. We can't afford to cut a huge check to Eddy Curry to field test Anthony Randolph for a couple months.
It shouldn't be hard for the Wolves to get back in this game. Hell, I took five minutes with a free, public-access fantasy trader and got something reasonable enough to make an opening pitch with. If Kahn and company can't even get as far as a volunteer blog site, what more can really be said?
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While we're at it
I defy anyone to tell me why Chewbacca – a Wookie – lives on Endor. You can’t explain that. Why? It just doesn’t make sense.
So basically, Kahn’s rhetoric is somewhere between Bill Oreilly and Cartoon Jonnie Cochran.
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
Always makes me laugh!
Thanks.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
Actually, while I think Kahn’s in way over his head when it comes to evaluation and team-building, I think he’s quite a bulldog when it comes to trades. Or rather, every trade he’s made as Wolves’ POBO thus far has seemed to be on the terms he wanted.
That said, I’m not convinced he realizes the significance of the gap between a Gallinari and his wings right now, so I’m not convinced he’s thinking along these lines.
Thank you
I thought of this when I heard the 2nd part of the trade, and thought, “Wait—the Wolves have picks, too—why can’t they get one or more of those Knick players.”
The Knicks would be more likely to do a trade that completely excludes the Nets, partially because they’re rivals, and partially because the Nets sandbagged the Knicks into increasing the offer to Denver.
Good work , Oceanary.
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
Yeah, it's just stupid at this point
The Wolves were asking for extra pieces to make a deal happen. Yet when the Knicks finally decide they’re willing to give up those pieces, the team doesn’t barter it’s way into position to get them. Instead, they let the Knicks push them into an even worse deal than before, while the Nets set themselves up to walk away with the prizes
Are those Knick players really "prizes?"
That’s my first question. They seem like the kinds of guys that would make zero difference in the Wolves’ win/loss column, now or in the future.
My second question deals with Randolph. Why would you NOT want Randolph for Brewer, a crappy draft pick, and a moderate financial hit? He’s got physical upside, a history of productivity, and isn’t even 22 years old. Brewer’s run his course here. He wants a trade as much as we want him traded. That draft pick isn’t going to net a player like AR.
You know what's sad?
Randolph – a player most suited to play PF/C – is probably a better ball-handler than Corey, a player who has started at SG for us.
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
Ha. Sad, but probably true.
I remember the FreeDarko guys talking about how he was the ultimate in terms of the positional revolution, an almost 7-footer who could handle (almost) like a point.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 8:41 PM CST up reply actions
It's overpaying
Brewer may have run his course here, but he’s still an asset with fair trade demand from other teams. Including him in a deal that can be done without including him is wasteful. You can’t just get rid of things for the sake of getting rid of them and expect to find success, especially when you’re talking about a guy who’s one of the few non-negatives on the team to begin with
I don't see why we don't play hard ball.
We lose out on AR that’s too bad, but it’s hardly the end of the world. Right now only three teams can take on Eddie Curry’s contact without having to play the salary matching game:
1) Cleveland with the Lebron James Trade exemption
2) Kings with raw cap-space
3) Minnesota Timberwolves
I hardly think Dan Gilbert is going to want to go back to his season ticket holders with “look we lost Lebron James, but with the trade exemption we were able to help the Knicks get Melo and we got a AR in the deal”
The Maloofs supposedly are in a bad way financially. I wouldn’t expect them to cut a check for a couple million to pay off Curry minus the $3 million that would have to be included without them getting something substantial.
That leaves the Wolves. We raise our demands and Denver and NYKs are left to meet them or the deal suddenly gets real complicated. Denver is not going to like the idea of losing Billups and Anthony and paying luxury taxes. Sure Curry expires, but he expires on the Knicks or Nuggets dime unless Cleveland, the Kings or Minnesota decide otherwise.
I would have no problem with Minny waiting until the 11th hour and the derailing the whole thing unless we get our due.
Curry’s contract is not the great asset NYK fans hoped it would be. It’s a huge liability and we are likely the ONLY team (Kings or Cleveland could surprise) that will allow a Melo deal to take place without the Nuggets looking at a huge Lux tax bill.
This is
a good point, too. One of the Wolves few positions of strength in negotiations is that they have so little to lose!
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
We hold plenty of leverage
A Melo deal still gets done, but if Denver wants to get out of a lux tax bill they really need Cleveland, the Kings or the Wolves. Denver will not want to lose Anthony and pay lux tax. They’d rather hold him for the season and extend and trade if they are going to pay lux taxes.
We are talking about a lot of money. Right now Denver is over $13 million over the lux tax threshold. If they can’t get Cleveland, the Kings or the Wolves to take Curry’s contract they will have to find other ways to dump player salary very quickly or effectively be looking at a $16-17 million dollar bill for Curry between tax payments and his pro-rated salary and trade kicker.
Tell me that Denver eats $17 million on Curry and goes through with a Melo trade with a straight face and I’ll never buy anything from you as long as I live.
Curry's not part of the package being sent to the Nuggets
He’s staying with the Knicks
by Oceanary on Feb 21, 2011 8:55 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No
Deal is Anthony and Billups for Gallinari, Chandler, Felton, and Mozgov
Billups will probably ask for a buyout though
Doesn't work
About $10 million in salary differential over the 125% plus $100,000 rule
Curry would be needed
Hmm, you're right
That is interesting. I wonder if there’s a technicality involved here, because this deal is reported as near completion without any mention of Curry in any capacity. Something to check on
Not sure how NJN jumping in as 3rd team would affect
but it’s a possibility that it affects the 125% rule.
The problem is Taylor won't take on Curry just to get Randolph
If we try to play hardball, we’ll get nothing. All the assets we’d want will be in New Jersey by the 11th hour
by Oceanary on Feb 21, 2011 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If Curry is in the deal, we should be getting something more, you’re absolutely right.
Course, that’s exactly what the TWolves source told Bucher.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 8:40 PM CST up reply actions
Right
CNN-SI said we’d get the 2014 NYK pick
CBS Sportsline said we’d get $3 mil in cash
I’d prefer this to keeping the cap space, and using the MEM or UTA 1st
Rumor has it, that NYK can trade their 2014 1st
So the most recent trade proposal has us giving up Brewer for Randolph and Curry, much more bearable.
Hmmmm . . ..
. . . this is a point you haven’t brought up before. Care to elaborate?
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
Marcus Camby
Is a long, skinny big man with a history of missing large chunks of the seasons he has played in. He also has a history of strong defense and statistical production.
Sound familiar? Is Marcus Camby also not worth having on a team? The possible benefits of adding Anthony Randolph seem to easily outweigh the costs and risks involved, and Flagrant never seems to have any counter for that. It’s just another “he gets hurt a lot” comment, without any answer to the evidence provided against his argument.
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
by nja700 on Feb 21, 2011 8:53 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure
Gerald Green was also a freakish player that caught the imagination of freak-minded fans. Green was “young”, as you like to remind everyone AR is “young.”
Gerald Green was sold (Boston), bought (Wolves), and re-sold (Mavericks) on “potential” (another chestnut from the fandom with respect to Randolph).
We’ve covered the gimpy aspect, so no further elaboration required there.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
And an inclination to play defense.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 9:25 PM CST up reply actions
My only problem with getting AR is where does he play on this team?
Unless AR adds at least 25 pounds, he can’t play the 5. He’s a 4 and I think we already got someone there. i think he’s got a lot of potential and is worth a shot, but I think he’d only see action in certain situations, and he needs to get more minutes than that to tap his potential.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 9:29 PM CST up reply actions
My guess is that we see a lot of Love/AR/Beasley
with Love guarding non-elite 5’s
I really would love to see that work out. Those 3 at the top of their respective games clicking together would be a very nice frontcourt.
But there’d have to be real specific matchups for it to work.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 9:38 PM CST up reply actions
Yes it would.
We are a long way from the playoffs. I’m okay running small ball until Pekovic is ready. I just don’t see Darko being the long term answer.
Well
The patented three power forward frontcourt. What could possibly go wrong?
He's bulked up a bit over the last few years
and not in an “Oliver Miller” kind of way.
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
I'd rather we just stay put than take on other team's leftovers
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
If the Wolves continue the same trend
With additional future potentials, the team will continue to be the youngest, least experienced, and banking on potential team for the foreseeable future.
And where has it gotten us to date? It’s simply changing the occupants on the deck chairs of the Titanic.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
I actually don't wanna get rid of Brewer...
am I alone in that thought?
I'm still a Minnesotan at heart...
Probably not
I am sort of on the fence, but I think many people would maintain that he’s run his course here, and that he’ll get more on the open market that we’d be willing to pay him. The die was probably cast when they didn’t pick up the last option on him.
Well, it's a moot point anyway, isn't it? He's not going to (want to) sign here after the year, is he?
But I know what you’re saying. For all his negatives, he’s still a positive.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
Does this deal get Denver out of the Lux?
I think that cutting Gallo & Mozgov’s salary is the primary incentive in that side trade. I would expect the Harris to Portland deal to go through so that NJ can absorb the Knick’s leftovers.
The Nuggets can still complete their deal with the Nets in this scenario
Unless they specifically want Gallo, which doesn’t appear to be the case
My point is that we would have to be able to get Denver out of Luxury tax
Does your deal do that? Sorry I’m too lazy to crunch the numbers right now. You’re right, I don’t think Denver cares about Gallo so it would appear that they’ll dump him to save some cash and get another 1st rounder
Yes, this deal does that
By taking on Eddy Curry, we save the Nuggets from his salary going on the books. They send out $30 mil in Anthony and Billups and only take back about $17 mil…$10 mil of which would then be dealt to the Nets
methinks
we wont get Gallo. shit ill be happy if we can swing Randolph at dis point witout givin up corey, aldoe Kahn iznt goona resign him anyways
MAYN HOL UP!
which trade exactly?
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
This one:
The Nuggets traded Melo to the New York Knicks tonight, a league source said. Denver gets Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, the Knicks 2014 first-round draft pick, the Warriors’ 2012 second-round pick, the Warriors’ 2013 second-round pick and $3 million in cash.
Anthony will go to New York, along with Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter and Renaldo Balkman.
http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_17443219
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Interesting. I should follow him.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I could see that; they've still gotta free up space to sign Anthony long-term, right?
But they gotta sweeten the pot more than that for us to take Curry off their hands. Otherwise that is just a favor.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 9:25 PM CST up reply actions
Yep he is
it says Randolph and Curry are coming here
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
http://hoopshype.com/rumors.htm
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
They got a booth over at Ruth Chris for Curry
Should be there a week or so.
Hold you're horses
the listed deal is impossible —
by Airete on Feb 21, 2011 9:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i can't im too excited that all the trading is started!! haha
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
The Carmelo Anthony trade saga is finally over.
The Nuggets traded Melo to the New York Knicks tonight, a league source said. Denver gets Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, the Knicks 2014 first-round draft pick, the Warriors’ 2012 second-round pick, the Warriors’ 2013 second-round pick and $3 million in cash.
Anthony will go to New York, along with Chauncey Billups, Shelden Williams, Anthony Carter and Renaldo Balkman.
Read more: Carmelo Anthony traded to New York Knicks in blockbuster deal – The Denver Post http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_17443219#ixzz1Eec41fJF
Read The Denver Post’s Terms of Use of its content: http://www.denverpost.com/termsofuse
This seems crazy
Talk about cleaning house.
It's just plain wrong
can’t happen as listed — missing piece of about $10 million in outgoing contracts for NYKs
The other shoe will drop, but as listed this deal is impossible
What will be interesting will be too see
How good will the Knicks players be in Denver. How much did D’Antoni’s system inflate their numbers.
I sure would love Felton running our team.
BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE
let the domino effect begin..
"Wes is old, passive, and below-average in every aspect of his game except outside shooting and smiling" - PoorDick.
We can't take on Curry and AR without sending out someone so if it happened
Brewer and or Telfair are gone
We don't want Curry
We take him to help allow this trade to happen. Our price for doing this is Randolph. We do this because Randolph maybe a good player. He’s young and posted really nice numbers with the Warriors his first two years.
Personally, I don't think it's worth it.
Randolph just isn’t who we need on our team. Sure, he has tons of potential, but then again, so does pretty much everyone on our team. We don’t have room for him on our roster and we do not need him.
We definitely could use some athletic length
Against some teams like Portland. In spite of all the Kahn jokes.
no they are not`but we may get caught in the wave
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
I kind of wanted to check out Randolph but not for too high a price
But some of the speculation made it look like we were getting in too deep for little upside – I’m kind of relieved. Any chance they can still maybe trade for AR now in a simpler trade that doesn’t screw us?
Or maybe there are other details involving the Wolves not yet reported…
http://twitter.com/#!/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/39888578427355137
"Wes is old, passive, and below-average in every aspect of his game except outside shooting and smiling" - PoorDick.
oops
http://twitter.com/#!/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/39888578427355137
"Wes is old, passive, and below-average in every aspect of his game except outside shooting and smiling" - PoorDick.
i fail
http://twitter.com/SpearsNBAYahoo/status/39888578427355137
"Wes is old, passive, and below-average in every aspect of his game except outside shooting and smiling" - PoorDick.
So, that says we're getting Curry and Randolph
but doesn’t say Brewer is going anywhere.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Minnesota needs to unload $879,989 in order to take Curry and AR
someone is gone
Do these salary numbers work?
I thought we had to get rid of someone to make it work
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
Please be Jonny Flynn
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
by uncle rico on Feb 21, 2011 9:36 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
It's weird that this hasn't been corrected...
Maybe Kahn just doesn’t realize it yet. Wouldn’t be surprising.
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
I'm still trying to verify we're actually signing off on a Curry/Randolph acquisition
It doesn’t jive with what S-n-P and I were hearing about Papa Glen and buyout checks
We can rebuild him.
We have the technology.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 9:50 PM CST up reply actions
If he doesn't work out as a center
we could always use him to sell hot dogs or something.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
We could use him to eat hot dogs.
He’ll challenge Kobayashi and Chestnut and he’ll Win, damnit!
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 9:52 PM CST up reply actions
You better count the hot dogs before you send him out
It’s the mystery of the missing dogs….Eddie where did they go?
It's possible
If we’re getting cash and sending out Brewer, there isn’t an overwhelming amount of salary difference
He is The Singularity
we’ve all been waiting for
by highpockets on Feb 21, 2011 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
Spears is reporting Corey off to Denver
That Craigslist posting may have been true after all.
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
Starting to think I should go to bed
Since no one cares on being accurate with the Wolves angle on this trade so we’ll get conflicting info until tomorrow.
3 million what?? 3 million WHAT?!!??!
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
I hope its pizzas. I love New York Style pizza.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Twitter 9min ago
by WojYahooNBA
Y! Sports: NY: Melo, CB, Balkman, Williams, Carter; DEN: Gallo, Mosgov, Felton, Chandler, ’14 NY 1st & 2 2nds; Minn: Randolph and Curry.
Let's hope Randolph can get off of the bench in Minnesota.
Third time is a charm.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Randolph can play d
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 9:43 PM CST up reply actions
The problem is that we were already bad at defense with Corey.
Tolliver may play solid defense, but it hasn’t been good enough, and now, without Corey, it’s much much worse.
Also, Randolph will take away even more of Tolliver’s minutes, so that doesn’t help, does it?
If Randolph gets a fair shake here
which I think he will it is a very tough trade not to like. He’s young, he’s talented and he’s productive.
Soooo
just corey, no pick?
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
That's what it sounds like
If so, great trade.
With $2.7 million in cap-space and $14 million in expiring contracts to work with through Thursday
I doubt we see anything else happen though. So we’ll head into the lock out with a fair chunk of space (after Telfair and Curry expire) prior to any player extensions next year.
I wouldn't call it great...
Although we’ll probably never know what else was on the table.
Now if we got Varejao or Wallace for cap space…now THAT would be great
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
But AR doesn't actually cost real money yet by NBA standards
Varejao and Wallace would require actual commitment
Almost $3 million next season
That’s a lot of money in my opinion.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Right, but those two can play.
That’s yet to be determined for Randolph. We have to add veterans at some point to this team.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
by TimAllen on Feb 21, 2011 9:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Randolph can play, he's produced. He just needs minutes - and consistency and better decision-making.
But we do have to add veterans at some point, you’re right. And that point is pretty far away still.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
Here's an opinion from a Knick fan:
“he’s a rollercoaster. If you can get him to focus on rebounding (not easy) & not jack bad 20ftrs he can be something.”
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Ok
He needs to understand his game more and his own pros and cons, like Josh Smith did when he stopped jacking threes. And if he does, if he focuses on defense and understands what a bad shot is and doesn’t dribble like he’s the point guard, and continues what he has already done, he could be a very good player.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
No, the Wolves are not losing because of lack of veterans
but because of a lack of talented and productive players.
Right, but the most talented and productive players
tend to be veterans.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Not really
Corey was really, really bad. And he’s gone. Randolph has been shown to be quite good and he’s coming in the door. Assuming he is the player he was in GSW he’ll immediately come in and be out best option at C. (or more accurately him and Love together in the front court)
You think Randolph could play center? He's real lean. Like veal.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:09 PM CST up reply actions
I hope he can, I'm just not sure
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
Beas and AR
Bringing back the lost art of the 18-20 foot jump shoot.
Well I'd put Love on most Cs
He’s not lean. Or easily moved.
Darko is a great shot blocker
and the team is worse with him at Center than any of the team’s other center options (Pek, Koufus, Love and Tolliver)
Set aside
Pek and Kosta don’t go up against elite post players (Rambis matches Darko against those guys). Here are K Love’s splits:
112.59 (on court) 105.21 (off court)
Darko’s
111.70 110.00
Oh, and Darko is always matched up against the better 4/5 when he and Love are on the court together. But you know that from watching the games, surely.
Here's a fun little exercise you do to demonstrate you are wrong
with moving averages. Team defensive rating for the Wovles:
110.80
Five players play center for the Wolves
Three play exclusively center. The team’s defensive ratings for each are:
111.70 (Darko)
110.89(Pek)
110.85(KK)
What does that necessarily mean about the team’s defensive performance when either Love or Tolliver is at C? They have to be a lower number than 110.80. That’s how a weighted average works.
Though MLK day Love’s listed DRating at C was 105.89
Sample size?
You said let’s look at on court/off court defensive splits. I pointed out that Love’s are pretty terrible. And your argument is that notwithstanding Love’s terrible splits and the fact that every scout in the league thinks he is a terrible defender that we are supposed to believe that he can guard Cs based on the very few minutes he has guarded the position this year?
I'm talking about at Center
The Wolves have played 2703 minutes of basketball this season
Darko has played 1275, 549 and Koufus 336 which means that Tolliver and Love have combined to play 533 minutes at Center. And in those minutes the Wolves are a better defensive team, by a reasonably wide margin than when Darko or even the other true centers are on the court.
Disagree
Are you arguing that the team has done well with Love/Tolliver at the 5 in very small doses or that they should go small permanently? If it is the latter, you are doing nothing more than speculating based on the very limited minutes in which the team has gone small (where presumably match ups dictated that they COULD go small) that the team would be better of with Love or Tolliver permanently at center. Hey, maybe it’s worth a shot but I don’t think there is any reason to believe that Love will fare that much better at the five defensively than he has at the four in the long run. He is just too undersized and unathletic.
(Lest I be accused by anyone of sounding like ChuckD I do believe that Love is a superlative offensive player because of his mix of craftiness, shooting touch, and pure aggression).
Are you seriously arguing that 533
minutes isn’t enough to determine a team’s defensive /100 possessions numbers? FFS, That’s nearly 5300 possessions
How is that 5300 possession?
Are we really near a possession every 6 seconds? This seems a little off. I’ll ready admit it’s a fair sample size, but 10 possession per min doesn’t hold water.
wow your right.
533 is a pretty good sized sample. Always had a feeling about this but never looked at the numbers
by dontTradeAaronNelson! on Feb 21, 2011 11:45 PM CST up reply actions
He also can defend without fouling...
Which Darko and Pek are completely incapable of doing
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
They are very capable of defending without fouling.
It’s just what the referees think is fouling that’s the problem.
He can
He just isn’t a rim-protector or shot blocker. He can force his own man into a bad shot and force him off of the block; just because a guy isn’t a Mutombo-style shot-altering presence doesn’t mean he can’t play good post D.
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
Please
Look at the stats as to how the team performs on D when Love is on the court and when he is off.
Did I say that he was a good overall defender?
No. He has some very obvious deficiencies on that end. That doesn’t preclude him from being a terrible defender in every facet. He’s still a net minus on D, but he’s shown some encouraging signs when bodying-up his man in the post. That counts for something, even if he’s bad overall.
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
We're going to be a matchup nightmare for some teams
And a matchup dream for others.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
Not really? What young teams win playoff series in this league?
Randolph has shown glimpses. Quite good is an overstatement.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Not a Brewer Fan
But he was the only wing on the roster who could play passable defense on NBA shooting guards. Looks at his on/off court defensive splits.
Look at Wayne's and Brewer's from last season
single season on court/off court defensive splits are famously
We gotta do something to make a playoff push next year...
And those were the two best of the feasible options. A 20 win season next year= disaster.
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
Kahn also trades...
Paper bags to breath into marked “rush to judgement” to all canishoopus members.
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Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on Feb 21, 2011 9:48 PM CST via mobile reply actions
My favorite Corey Brewer moment
was him Dunking on Derek Fisher, you will be missed Corey.
"Wes is old, passive, and below-average in every aspect of his game except outside shooting and smiling" - PoorDick.
How crazy is it that James Dolan would let Isiah Thomas
have any influence at all over his team again?
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
how much
cap space do we actually lose when this trade goes through. can we still afford a mayo type
Approx $10 million gone about $2.7 million remaining
We’d likely have to salary match in future deals through Thursday. That’s why this is likely it.
I like the trade
Anthony Randolph has a fairly diverse skill set and he has a pretty high ceiling.
Folly
This team is having historically bad production from the SG slot. It also has three point guards on the roster who want to play (with some Spanish dude overseas). And the big move is to trade our best winger defender for a guy who plays the same position as our best player? Any minutes to AR are minutes taken away from Tolliver, Pek, Love, etc.,
Well yeah
But we had cap space….and we’re using it to get a fifth big man?
You know what Brewer did for th team in the past
Might as well see what Webster, Johnson, and Ellington can do for the team in the future. What’s the real risk, a losing streak?
by BlazerTag on Feb 21, 2011 10:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
What else were you expecting
to use the cap space on? We have historically bad production from our entire team. The fact is that you could put Randolph at the 3,4,5 for spot minutes and he’d out produce most everyone we have.
by Zeitgeister on Feb 21, 2011 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
A shooting guard with a per over 13?
Is that too much to ask for?
It seems that way
Anyway this is a move that should potentially make us incrementally better. I’m kinda baffled by someone not being at least mildly excited about this move.
by Zeitgeister on Feb 22, 2011 12:25 AM CST up reply actions
honestly, i'm super bummed about it.
brewer was one of my favorite twolves even though he wasn’t fantastic…he is always entertaining out there on the court…i hope that denver health codes don’t make him get rid of his pet goat.
I haven't really minded it so far.
I do like Randolph, and we’re not giving up much. Same deal as with Beasley. Bottom-feeding isn’t the worst thing. It’d be nice to strike gold, sweet, sweet gold once.
But he did promise that ‘singular’ move and Randolph probably ain’t it, generously speaking.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
It's not so much that I mind when it happens...
….as it is that it’s the only type of deal he’s probably capable of making
Yeah, seems that way.
But a swing for the fences trade right now probably would’ve had to involved Beasley or Rubio or Love…what else would we have to offer in a swing for the fences trade? 2 first-rounders wouldn’t have gotten much….ha, besides Jefferson I guess.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:16 PM CST up reply actions
Well, in defense
of Kahn (!), he’s only as God made him.
Seriously, it’s the only way they can improve. Can’t draft, can’t swindle via trade, won’t overpay, and can’t improve players. So, it’s United We Throw Stuff Against the Wall to See What Sticks
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
Eh.
I’ve accepted it, and I still think it gives them the most cost-effective and likely path to improvement. Plus, if they do improve on the court and at the gate enough to justify the Last of the Singular Moves, they’ll have a trunk full of spare parts to offer up in trade.
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
This also continues...
the stockpiling of ‘08ers. All that’s left is Jarryd Bayless and OJ Mayo to form our starting five.
Flip Flynn for Bayless.
Love would be happy.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:28 PM CST up reply actions
Actually I think Kahn
Is kind of like a typical guy in a fantasy league. He picks players that your average rube would draft. Not much in the unveiling hidden gems.
That's a good one.
There is a certain Daniel Snyderness is his methods.
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
Bottom feeder might be just what the T'wolves need
How ironic. This guy pulled a former number 2 pick and a guy that was traded for David Lee off the scrap heap in the same season.
Didn't even think about the Lee aspect.
That’s….it’s kind-of impressive, man. Beasley, Randolph, these are some really talented players. It’s clearly spit at the wall and hope it sticks, but he’s spitting a lot. And some of it is real sticky.
…then again, you gotta realize that they’re really talented players who the rest of the league seem to really not want.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:20 PM CST up reply actions
David Kahn: the sucker fish of the NBA fish tank
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
No
The article says the Warriors’ second round picks are going from NY to Denver.
Huh?
“A source said the Knicks will send Anthony Randolph and Eddy Curry to Minnesota as part of the deal.” And Minnesota is sending two second-round picks to the Knicks.
Stinks too.
2nd round is where teams make their bones. One stashed Euro in five-years can make a team, one cheap guy who can step into a role can add wins.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
Yup like the Spurs
If this is true (the trade), it looks like the Knicks followed Miami’s blueprint with the Beas trade. 2nd rounders are gold for cap challenged teams.
I don't like this trade at all...
…but as soon as its official, I’ll be the newest member of the Anthony Randolph Fan Club.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I don't like using our cap space for a guy who hasn't gotten off of the bench
on two consecutive teams. I think there were other guys we should’ve targeted instead.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I don't disagree that we likely could have done better,
but I think its pretty clear that the cap space wouldn’t get used otherwise. I have no problem with trading Brewer, since he was gone at the end of the year anyway. I would have much rather used the space on a big time player, but did we really think Kahn would pull that off? I’m okay with this trade.
I hope Randolph pans out and he turns into the next big thing for us.
I’m just a little skeptical about that. But then again, I didn’t like the Beasley trade when it happened either, so what do I know?
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
In his second year...
how many “healthy scratches” did he have? Because, when he played (33 games) he got 23 minutes-per and made the most of them.
About as many...
as Darko did for that coach, on a worse Knicks team, and at an older age, last year. Mike D’Antoni and Don Nelson are hardly the first coaches a developing player would want to play for. Rambis, for all his struggles, might be better for him.
And how many people here are still excited about Darko?
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
At what age did we get Darko?
And did Darko ever produce at a young age like Randolph did?
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
by nja700 on Feb 21, 2011 10:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No
This is one of those apples to orangutans comparisons that people like to make.
Darko was a known entity – a sub-mediocrity with almost no chance to ever be better than that.
Randolph has been quite good and is likely to improve more with physical maturity
I think that's what nj was saying, too.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:36 PM CST up reply actions
Correct, sir
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
I didn't bring him up. AndyG did.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Anybody who opposes this trade...
must have some positive feelings toward our center position, in order to oppose what is likely an upgrade and is possibly a huge upgrade, there.
Those like myself, who are getting sick of “dump it into Darko” should welcome a low-risk move like this one.
FWIW, I don’t hate Darko—I just hate running an offense through Darko. Maybe Randolph will be a better offensive player with upside of an overall better defender. (Shotblocking + better mobility as help defender).
Agree with all that, especially the running offense through Darko
That’s the one problem with him…well, its the biggest problem with him. It’s been said a million times, but if he was a low-usage, defensive-minded center, he’d be so much better. As he is, he’s a backup, and more often than not a pretty crappy backup.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:38 PM CST up reply actions
That's exactly what Love/Beas need too
A low-usage, defensive-minded center.
I guess my problem is with the 'likely an upgrade' part.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
To me the thing I wish for the most out of Randolph
Is his motor. If he can be active, I’ll be happy.
But I’m not sure if that’s the way he is.
Darko
Has unfortunately become somewhat of a litmus test for how much one hates the Kahn/Rambis regime. Some posters on here are hoping against hope that Randolph can turn into a Marcus Camby type even though he has never really guarded centers. It’s fine to hope he can turn into that guy, but I think it is equally, if not more likely, that a 25 year old Darko will cut down on the turnovers and embrace his role as a Kendrick Perkins type.
The litmus test is Jonny Flynn.
And then Wes, and then Darko.
Randolph is 21 1/2 years old, and in the unlikely event he remained in college he would have been currently in his senior year, racking up stats that would have made Wes Johnson’s college career look like mine. He would no doubt be the overall number one pick (and would have been paid a lot more money than he will actually make this year), with Chad Ford going on and on about how this draft was “Anthony Randolph, and then everybody else.”
I’m fine with getting him for the price, even with the obvious questions as to where and when he will play, and which Wolf will be relegated to his rightly spot on the bench. But it does mean the Wolves gave up their best defender and an SG, two areas at which they weren’t excactly blessed when this day started.
So, the team may actually have been made worse by this trade—but with more potential!
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
Actual cost: small
Opportunity cost:huge
Sorry peeps, but unless AR is incredible, we’re f’d
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
I don't know about f'd.
I mean, if we win 20 games next year, is it really a disaster? Or just another bad season?
But I do agree that the opportunity cost was big.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I think that depends entirely
on:
1 )whether or not better deals were available.Iggy was apparently off the table since Philly is in the playoff hunt. Ellis probably isn’t available. After those 2 guys, who else would we really want?
and
2) whether or not we lose the cap space this year if we don’t use it. If we’ll still have enough money this summer to make a big move, then this is no big deal. Just temporarily using cap space to buy low on a high upside player. If we do lose it, though, (do to cap holds, etc) then it was a terrible deal.
Good points
I think holding onto our cap room into this summer is a good move. When the new CBA gets set, there may be a mad salary dump going on league wide. That’s when we’ll be in good position to do something.
Reasoning...
1) Wallace and Varejao were probably available for cap space.
2) our cap space right now is 50 times more valuable then cap space this off season when many other teams have cap space. Kahn blew it.
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
There's still time...
But we are no longer able to help out teams in Luxury territory, and that was our ace in the hole.
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
And Kahn blew the chance to get the most out of this deal too
There’s no reason Gallo and Mozgov should be headed to the Nets instead of here
Can Denver even trade those guys?
Don’t they have to wait 2 months?
I believe that only applies to players acquired in the offseason
Might be wrong though. Someone should check. Denver’s confident it can trade them now though
You may be right
FA’s who sign have to wait or something like that.
They can't be traded in combination with other players for 60 days.
But NJ and Denver can structure it as two trades – Gallo for one asset and Mozgov for another.
Kahn's Specialty
Secure a bunch of assets and promise, and when it’s time to act, theeeen….sort of….listlessly…you know…kind of…drop the ball
I still don't understand why you want Gallinari so much
Love = Forward and only Forward
Beasley = Forward and only Forward
Gallo = (surprise) Forward and only Forward
Where’s the fit?
Gallo = REAL NBA talent
as apposed to our entire roster (minus the two fore mentioned players)
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
That makes sense
Knicks will need someone to play D.
What do you get when you combine McHale and Kahn...
KG for AR, Flynn, and Ellington
Patiently waiting for a new POBO
My feelings on the trade
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A roll of the dice
Totally agreed.
"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN
by nja700 on Feb 21, 2011 10:33 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Gotta love the web with video like that to be had...
Or did you film that yourself? ;-)
If I filmed this of myself ...
It’d be a whole lot shorter.
Visit us at http://www.purplejesusdiaries.com for horrible Vikings coverage!
Corey Brewer is a Knick
Bring that smile to the big city and get yourself a ring
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
A fake gold ring from some sidewalk merchant?
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 21, 2011 10:35 PM CST up reply actions
he owns a goat...
he just may be that gullible haha
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
Some of his breakaway dunks will bring the house down...
Let’s not mention the other parts.
Just think
some people on this board said Corey Brewer would never be on a playoff team.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Randolph as a twenty-year-old:
18.5 and 10.3 per36.
18.7 PER.
.521 TS%.
I continue to think that the reason Randolph played so sparingly this year for the Knicks is they knew they were going to trade him. If they played him, he could get injured or not play well, both resulting in diminished trade value.Not to mention D’Antoni only plays 6 guys over 20 minutes per game. Personally, I want to see how Randolph plays when he is given significant minutes and allowed to develop.
"They are exactly where we were," Thunder coach Scott Brooks said. "We were in a lot of close games. The year we won 23 games, that's what the learning is all about. You're learning. You're not losing. Unfortunately, the record says you lost the game, but they're learning how to win and they will figure it out."
Watching 'Melo on the pre-taped Conan is kind of interesting.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Nothing different than you would expect.
But Conan’s bits were kind of funny.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Also am in agreement Tim
We need to find a veteran in the next 2 days.
We should be celebrating
We’re finally getting the transformative talent all our hearts desired. We should also be celebrating the Anthony Randolph obsession ends with Kevin Love still in town.
"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"
Heh--
“We should also be celebrating the Anthony Randolph obsession ends with Kevin Love still in town.”
I’m guessing Kahn looks into the mirror tonight, smiles, and says, “David, methinks you’ve done it AGAIN!”
Only five more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!
redd should be signed in the off season to make...
the ALL LEFTY TEAM
redd
beasley
ant rand
darko
watchin pornos on the ipad...thats really raw
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