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Around SBN: Kobe Bryant Will Never Top Michael Jordan

Initial Thoughts on the Trade

First of all, let's state the obvious: there is literally no downside to what David Kahn and the Minnesota Timberwolves just pulled off.  None.  The team had sent numerous signals over the past year that they had little to no intention of resigning Corey Brewer (see Webster, Martell and Johnson, Wes) and they were able to move him a'la Randy Foye and Mike Miller for a usable asset.  These appear to be the (only) types of moves that Kahn excels at.  

What is remarkable about this deal is that it does two things that actually make sense in terms of actual basketball: Anthony Randolph has a track record of functional play (he even fits the awful term of "having potential") and the team has effectively rented out its cap space and still has enough flexibility to make additional moves with Eddie Curry's deal (and, for example, Sebastian Telfair or Jonny Flynn) before the trade deadline.  

Random thoughts:

 

  • It will be very tempting to play into the "long and athletic" angle with Randolph.  It is true that he is both.  He also showed some signs of improvement in his first two years playing in an up-tempo style and was good enough to get invited to Team USA's summer camp (where he caught the eye of Tony Ronzone).  He's missed a lot of games over his career for one reason or another and he seems best fitted to play at the 4, but he seems to have enough talent to post numbers that are above and beyond what any non-Love or non-Beasley Timberwolf is capable of. 
  • Randolph is 2 years younger than Wes Johnson.  This could be a very good and close-up example for those Wolves fans who still don't seem to get it of why age matters when picking college players.  It really, really, really matters.  
  • It could also be a good example of what types of players actually possess high-level (and here's that word again) potential.  Think of player development like evolution and natural selection.  Players at this level are only able to develop with the skills and tools they already have.  Wanting Wes Johnson to develop into a slashing, high-usage modern shooting guard is like wishing for a turtle to develop a 5th leg.  Sorry, he just doesn't have the existing systems to make that dream happen.  On the other hand, Anthony Randolph has the types of tools that could make for an extremely high level player.  Elite size, athleticism, handle, an ability to get to the line, rebounding, and shot blocking.  These are things that can evolve into the upper levels of the NBA while giving the Wolves a player type they don't currently have.  This evolution is highly dependent on two things: Randolph's head (he's had some drive/motivation/whatever issues over his 3 years in the league) and the Wolves' player development.  You know, his environment. 
  • With his awesome inability to make anything out of the draft, this is exactly the type of move that Wolves fans should be excited about with David Kahn.  Free agents aren't lining up to come here and this leaves trades and the draft as the main avenues for improvement.  So far, Kahn deserves an F- for his draft work and a B for his trades.  Michael Beasley and Anthony Randolph are home runs.  Darko and Martell are average. 2 A's or B+'s and 2 C's.  Too bad the team couldn't have better capitalized on its 6 first round draft picks (with 3 more on the way) during Kahn's tenure.  
  • I know Corey Brewer isn't exactly the best player, but he was playing some solid ball this year (at least until Flynn started getting regular minutes again) and he was one of the few guys who tried to play defense and brought it to the arena each and every single night.  I think that counts for something and it will be missed. 
  • It will be very interesting to see how Randolph is utilized in this lineup.  Where and when are they going to play him?  There are only so many minutes/night for Beasley, Webster, Johnson, and now Randolph.  This might require some (gasp) creativity from Kurt Rambis. 
  • Eddie Curry is now the highest paid Timberwolf. 
  • Do the Wolves now lead the league in lefty combo forwards? 
  • The only two things that really get me about this trade are that a) it's not exactly the type of move anyone thought of when Kahn said "singular", and b) it looks as if the Wolves are going to not act upon the tail-end of the Al Jefferson trade's cap space.  That is kind of disappointing.  As mentioned above, this team needs to rely on the draft and trades to get players in the door.  They fail miserably in the draft and they do pretty well on the trade front.  They really need a high-usage perimeter player who can score.  There's still some time left before the trade deadline.  Here's hoping they can make the best of it. 
Before the trade went down, I was working on a pre trade deadline post about what the Wolves could do next.  I'll put it up below the fold, as I still think a large chunk of it applies.  

Regardless, it should not be lost on anyone that the Randolph trade is a fantastic move by the Wolves and it should be viewed as nothing but a feather in Kahn's cap.  He seems to have a knack for this sort of move and maybe the team can find a guard version of the Beasley/Randolph trade to round things out. 

Star-divide

1- Trade for a high-usage guard before the trade deadline

Kevin Love is a very unique type of player.  He's the type of guy who produces a lot while not  playing the role of a go-to guy.  He's not that guy.  Throw in his work on the boards, his ability to run the pick and roll, and his awesome three point shooting, and you have a top shelf player who is just screaming to be placed next to a high-usage perimeter player.  Could Beasley be that guy?  I'll address that in a bit, but Love needs to play next to a guy who can handle the ball as a go-to scorer with an insanely high usage rate.  Who could play this role?

  • Stephen Curry- The less said about this player, the better.  I don't think I need to go into why he'd be a good fit here.  It was obvious before the 2009 Draft and it's just as obvious now. Take a quick gander at what Kevin Love did during the last 1/2 of his rookie season.  I'm sure the team had access to what he was able to do in pick and pop and pick and roll situations.  These two players were meant to play with one another and it's sad that it never happened and probably never will.  
  • Kevin Martin-  Probably the next most perfect companion for Kevin Love.  Think of everything Wes Johnson is, imagine the opposite, and there you go.  OK, that's kind of harsh.  Martin is carrying close to a 30% usage rate right now while having a, wait for it, a .606% TS%.  He also carries a 10.2% TO%.  Everything the Wolves could possibly want in a Kevin Love sidekick lives down in Houston, TX and he's probably unattainable.  Still, guys who can handle the ball at a high clip, not turn it over, get to the line (he averages more per game than Wes Johnson attempted in December and, thus far, in February), and hits a high percentage of his shots are the type of player  you want to put next to Kevin Love.  
  • Monta Ellis-  A big contract and not quite as ideal for the job as Mr. Martin or Mr. Curry, but Ellis fits the mold of a perimeter player who can handle the ball with a huge usage rate while being able to score at a somewhat efficient rate.  Actually, that's not completely true.  He's a volume scorer who is averaging less than a point/play.  However, the type of players who fit the bill we're looking for don't grow on trees and he's one of the better ones.  The big concern about Ellis is the massive number of minutes he's logging after an injury in Golden State.  He led the league last year in mpg and he's at the top once again. He also has a fairly decent ast%/to% rate considering his high usage rate and the pace of play in the bay.  
  • Nick Young- OK, now we're getting into silly territory.  Young's price tag is probably much lower than any of the players listed so far but he also isn't nearly as good of a player as the players listed so far.  That being said, he does have some promise.  In a broad sense of what we're looking for with a Lovekick, Young has a .548 TS% from the perimeter, an ok usage rate (24.6%), very low turnover rate (7.7%), and he averages over a point/play.  He would be kind of a long shot for this role, as he would need to up his offensive load while maintaining his efficiency, but it's food for thought.  After all, this is a post trying to be realistic with what the Wolves can do and a player like Young is right in Kahn and Taylor's wheelhouse: cheap and with risk. Hooray!
  • Devin Harris- Do you know that Harris has played 64, 69, and 64 games over his last 3 years?  He's also 27. Did I mention we're in silly territory?  Anywho, Harris used to be a very nice player.  Then he got injured.  Still, if he could get back to the player he was (gigantic if), he's kind-of-sort-of-if-you-really-squint the player that would look nice next to Kevin Love.  Let's head off to complete gamble territory...
  • Rodrigue Beaubois- Currently injured, but he put up awesome, awesome, awesome numbers in his first year in the league and they were kind of the types of numbers we're looking for: usage rate near 25% (not high enough for our purposes, but we're in gamble territory), a TS over 60%....he also played 12 1/2 minutes a game.  Again, gambles and he probably can't maintain the huge usage rate while being a scorer, but...well, Stephen Curry was there for the taking.  Damn. 
Moving beyond these players, here are a few names to think about in the Basement Bargin Bin:
  • Chris Douglas-Roberts- His usage rate isn't over 20, he's not that great from outside, and he has underperformed thus far as a pro, but he could a) likely be had for cheap, and b) would immediately be the best guard on the Wolves.  CDR would also be the only Wolves' perimeter player who sees the value in a thing called "contact". 
  • Avery Bradley- This one is a super reach.  There is nothing at all in Bradley's NBA stat sheet to suggest that he would be able to handle the type of role the Wolves need at the lead guard.  However, he plays behind Rajon Rondo and Ray Allen and his college role is what we're looking at here.  Was he held back at Texas because of older players on the team and can he handle a large usage rate?  If the Wolves are looking for a cheap option on the perimeter and they are unable to land Kyrie Irving in the draft and Rubio does not come over for another year, Bradley might be a last-man-standing type of option. 
  • Jeff Teague- A usage rate near 20% with a TS% that has increased by a large amount in his 2nd year in the league.  He's basically everything I think David Kahn thinks Jonny Flynn is but...well, not Jonny Flynn.  In fact, he may be twice the player as Jonny Flynn, and that could be a good thing for the Wolves.  FWIW, did you know Flynn carries a 26.7% TO%?  Crazy, I know. 
2- Move Michael Beasley to the 2nd unit. 

One of the most interesting developments of the pre-ankle madness was watching the coaching staff set up the rotation in a way that either Kevin Love or Michael Beasley is always on the floor.  Unfortunately, they don't always follow through on what they set up, but that's another story for another day.   

This team lacks anything remotely approaching a scoring threat off the bench.  The problem it has is that its best player cannot create his own shot on a consistent basis.  He's simply not that type of performer, nor, to be honest, should he be.  

Should Our Beloved Puppies add a high-usage guard to the starting lineup, it would allow for two positives to be created in the aftermath: first, Michael Beasley could be handed the role of Manu Microwave and asked to carry the scoring off the bench.  Second, Wes Johnson gets to line up at the 3, where he appears to be a more comfortable performer and where the team can focus on his strengths (Yes, I know the 2 and 3 are somewhat indistinguishable in the Wolves' offense, but humor me on this point.  The guy is a small forward.  He can't handle the rock and eventually this team will no longer be running the Biangle.) 

Beasley's game is one of those things that could go in a few different directions.  He has clearly improved his ability to move the ball around this season but he is essentially an offensive player without conscience and without anappreciable affect one way or another on his team's overall play compared to whoever replaces him.  Despite how ugly the Wolves' offense may seem while Beasley is out with an injury, the fact of the matter is that the team scores pretty much at the same rate with him on the court as it does with him off of it.  Everything about Beasley's game screams 6th man.  He has a huge usage rate and he's at his level best when he has to think of nothing else but attacking the bucket all by his lonesome.  I say let him do it surrounded by the team's bench players that can't seem to score whatsoever.   

3- Slow down the pace. 

The Wolves are a fast paced turnover machine.  They are an iffy engine being run at impossible RPMs.  It defies logic to think that a young team who turns the ball over at a very high clip is asked to go faster, faster, faster. 

One of the most interesting NBA stories of the year has been the defensive transformation of the New Orleans Hornets under first year coach Monty Williams, who was a finalist for the Wolves' coaching spot.  The Hornets are amazingly well-prepared on defense, they play hard, and their coach holds players who do not play good defense accountable (see Thornton, Marcus).  

They also play at a Musselman-esque pace, 88.9, which is good for 28th in the league.  They carry a 103.6 DRtg, which is good for 7th in the league.  Last year they played at a pace of 92.6 and had a DRtg of over 110. 

The fastest top 10 defensive team in the league is the Memphis Grizzlies, who play at a 92.2 pace. 4 out of the 5 worst teams in the league play above a 93 pace.  The point here is that if you have a young team prone to turnovers, you want to limit possessions.  The Wolves don't seem to understand this basic concept and they like to give their mistake-magnet players as many chances to screw up as possible. Rambis is quite literally setting up his guys to fail in the most broadly systemic manner possible. 

4- Stop the Jonny Flynn nonsense.  

Jonny Flynn may be the nicest guy in the world but he is a terrible professional basketball player who has the annoying habit of dragging down everything around him.  Corey Brewer was playing some pretty competent basketball until the beginning of February when Jonny Flynn started receiving regular minutes.  Kevin Love's numbers take a downward turn when Flynn is entered into the lineup.  Name pretty much any player on the roster, add Jonny Flynn and you will see a downturn in production.  He is a stunningly bad pro ball player and while I don't actually think he's this bad if he were to have a different coach/system, he is this bad on the Wolves and he is the primary reason why they get absolutely torn apart at the point

Flynn is the classic case of a smallish guy being just athletic enough to dominate in High School and AAU while being The Man.  Upon getting to college his physical stature places him at the point (because there is nowhere else he can effectively play at the upper levels of the D1) and he is able to maintain some of his The Manness but does not really display any sort of game that would lead a competent observer to believe that he actually knows how to run an offense.  Why?  Because he never has had to. 

Upon reaching the pros it became blatantly obvious that he's a small shooting guard who has never had to run anything.  If he had played point throughout his career, there wouldn't be the 3-5 instances a night where he jumps in the air with nowhere to go or shoot.  There wouldn't be the single (and left) handed 10 foot passes.  There would be more than simply doing whatever he can to dribble into the lane and....well, there's no plan after that, as that's what he has always done.  

For an example of how to actually respond to a combo guard with potential, Davidson coach Bob McKillop tailored Stephen Curry's entire final year in college around him playing the point in a manner consistent with what he might see in the NBA.  Now, I realize that Syracuse probably couldn't (and, admittedly, shouldn't) cater an entire offense around a single player (they are lucky to have more than one good guy on the team), but it does highlight the importance of finding and drafting guys who actually have experience doing what you hired them for at the professional level.  If only there were a way to meld Andy Rautins and Flynn together into a single player. 

5- Defend the 3. 

Do I really need to explain that going 3-10 from beyond the arc is worth 4.5-10 from inside of it? When you have to explain basic math to someone, chances are they are not up to whatever task they are trying to do.  Yet, there they are. 

6- Throw a boatload of money at DeAndre Jordan

I have no idea if Jordan is going to pursue anything on the open market, but as a 2nd round pick, he's due a 2nd contract.  I don't know what the new CBA rules will allow for or if this will even be a possibility, but he is the type of player the Wolves need if Darko can't wrap his head around the fact that his sole purpose for being in the NBA is defense.  Jordan is exactly what the Wolves need at the 5: a low-usage, defensively-minded player who can shift to athletic 4s when Love is in a pinch.  

Can the Wolves find a way to grab Stephen Curry and DeAndre Jordan (or players who fit that bill at each position) while hanging on to Michael Beasley? Will fans be able to stop crying when they realize that this team (or one much like it) could have been realized in the draft?  How did I miss the boat on Jordan coming out of college?  

The best I think the Wolves could realistically end up with next year is this:
  1. Curry/Ridnour
  2. Brewer/Webster
  3. Johnson/Beasley/Brewer/Webster
  4. Love/Pekovic/Jordan
  5. Jordan/Milicic/Pekovic
Ideally, they'll find a coach who stresses defense, a slower pace, and who holds his players accountable for their defense. What other players do you think can fit the high-usage efficient role at the lead guard and the low-usage defensively minded and positionally flexible guy at the 4/5? 

The Wolves have been gifted an absolutely amazing and unique thing in Kevin Love. 

They have a player who is able to produce at superstar (yes, superstar) levels without having superstar-levels of action run for him. They essentially have a gimmie on the roster--a position where they do not have to set aside any out-of-the-norm resources for a guy who produces like nobody else in the league. In a very boiled-down and over-simplified sense, they have a guy who requires as many set offensive plays as Brian Cardinal but who produces like Dirk Nowitski.

The solution for Kevin Love is to surround him with an extremely high usage guard who can a) run the offense, b) hit from outside, and c) run the hell out of the pick and roll. This was as obvious as the nose on my face about 1/2 way through his first year in the league. They have a completely unique player and they don’t seem to know what to do with him.  

Kahn’s first thought was that he was a bench player. Rambis thought he was a 6th man and they both went about building around Ricky Rubio. Rambis and Kahn both do not seem to understand that they have a completely unique player who does not have to have anything run for him yet produces like a guy who has everything run for him. Where else are they going to find a player like that? What more could they possibly want? Yet, they continue to build the team in a way that does nothing to play to the fact they have this type of player. They run a gimmick offense and are building for someone who is not even with the team.  They're trying to pull a Reverse-Rummy by going to war with an army they don't have.  Even if/when Rubio gets here, he is a poor shooting passing-specialist who will do very little to alleviate the current problem that Love has in the offense: a complete lack of scoring (or threat of scoring) from the perimeter with a guy who can run the show; in other words, they need B-Easy's game with Luke Ridnour's body, handle, and passing ability.  They should be scouring the league for a guard who fits the bill and then surround them with as many defensive players as possible while doing everything they can to have Beasley anchor the 2nd unit. Anything along those lines is what they should be looking for. Instead, they’ll add an untested point guard who can’t shoot to the mix.

Maybe they never really understood what Love was/is (highlights are mine):

The media got fooled into thinking the Timberwolves rated Southern California guard O.J. Mayo and UCLA center Kevin Love even in ability, and that it was going to be tough to pick between them with the third overall choice in Thursday's NBA draft.

Well, there never was any doubt. Wolves assistant general manager Fred Hoiberg verified Thursday night that Mayo was their choice all along.

Hoiberg said the Wolves never came close to making a trade. The truth of the matter is they think so much of Mayo that they wanted him on the team.

"Our people thought that Mayo had far more upside than Love," Wolves owner Glen Taylor said. "And very important was the fact that Fred played for Tim Floyd at Iowa State, and we knew Floyd [who coached Mayo at Southern California] was going to give an honest scouting report on Mayo."

Amazingly, as I was preparing this post, Kahn dropped this nugget:

I defy anybody to tell me a year ago that they saw this kind of season coming with Kevin. Nobody saw it coming. Who could have seen it coming? Are we ready to make final determinations and judgements on everything that has occurred here in the last 19 months? I think Kevin is the poster child for that.

This follows on the heels of the early-season minutes nonsense that proceeded 31/31:


"Who's arguing that?" Rambis said afterward when asked a question about why arguably his best player watched most of the fourth quarter and didn't have a point or rebound in the second half after reaching a double-double (11 points, 10 rebounds) by halftime.

A reporter replied that he was.

"That's your opinion," he said. "I thought Anthony was doing the things defensively that we need. It was nothing against Kevin. I thought A.T. was doing a good job. I thought that he was moving his feet well. He challenged shots. He blocked shots.


They absolutely don’t get what they have and they need to figure it out in a hurry before he decides to leave and they're left standing with absolutely nothing.  

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Great job

Nice post. I like to read and this was a great one.
Now all we need is either Curry or Ellis.

by lurifax on Feb 22, 2011 8:05 AM CST reply actions  

There is a lot of downside to this trade

GS won’t give up Curry. And now, with this trade, the wolves can no longer get Ellis before the trade deadline. The wolves needed their free cap space to have any chance of getting him. Eddy Curry’s expiring contract won’t work, because there are restriction on trading a recently traded player (basically, you can’t package him with anyone else).

But more on downside. The real downside is the unintended consequences. The unintended consequence of trading for Darko was that Kahn felt he had enough at center to pass on Cousins. The unintended consequence of keeping Darko is that the wolves continue with the broken triangle, because Rhombis believes Darko is a key player to make the triangle work.

One unintended consequence, and the huge downside to this trade, is that the wolves will now not get that scoring SG before the trade deadline. They’ve lost their cap asset.

by ThisIsForSota on Feb 22, 2011 9:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Using the cap asset

requires spending actual money. I’m not sure why people still think this is an option.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions  

If Kahn brought an option to Taylor to bring a high scoring SG to Minnesota . .

I do think Taylor would have accepted. Ticket revenue would more than offset the extra salary.

Taylor is taking the right strategy to not give his ok to pay for mediocre talent, or overpaid potential. But a star SG turns this team around.

by ThisIsForSota on Feb 22, 2011 9:25 AM CST up reply actions  

"Ticket revenue would more than offset the extra salary"

Do the (albeit simplistic) math: Assuming $30 per seat and 41 games, one ticket brings in about $1,200 per year. Let’s just say that the new player is going to cost $5 million more per year than whom they would otherwise pay. The team would need to sell over 4,000 more tickets per night to pay the extra $5 million in salary.

Now, there would obviously be other sources of potential revenue, like concessions, advertising, and maybe even playoff games. But it illustrates how little incentive a cost-conscious team has to overpay for an incremental improvement in the line-up.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:40 AM CST up reply actions  

For further insight, please consult Donald $%^&ing Sterling

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

I see the ticket sales differently

I think a play-off team can charge, on average, $30 more per ticket than a bottom of the cellar team purposely tanking by not signing needed players. You can get deals on tickets now that wouldn’t be available for a playoff team. So the number of tickets gaining value may be more like 12,000 to 16,000, or a gain of $15 to $20 Million

by ThisIsForSota on Feb 22, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Paying some wing

$5 million more per year than what the current guy is getting isn’t going to get them anywhere near the playoffs, any time soon. In the meantime, that contract is guaranteed, and likely to get relatively more expensive after the new CBA is signed.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow, you are fast replier

It took me three hours to reply to your previous comment.

I agree with you 100% that it would be foolish for the wolves to trade for a mediocre $5M SG. However, bring in Monta Ellis, cover his salary by the increased ticket sales, and the wolves are a play-off team next year.

by ThisIsForSota on Feb 22, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

GSW's roster

isn’t a whole lot worse than the Wolves, and the Warriors aren’t even close to the playoffs.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Golden State has a solid young core

they’re playing .500 ball, and improving. They’ll be a play-off team next year. If the wolves somehow got Ellis, I see them as a better team than the current GSW.

by ThisIsForSota on Feb 22, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Disagreed,

but I sure hope we get to find out!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions  

You disagree that

David Lee, Dorell Wright, Steph Curry and Monta Ellis is not a better team to build around than the Wolves? Or you disagree that they’ll make the playoffs next year?

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Feb 22, 2011 3:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Curious.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Feb 22, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Yellow.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 7:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Ellis would be great, but they aren't giving him away.

The team is playing better and while Ellis/Curry isn’t ideal, they aren’t trading either unless they get equal talent back.

So who do we trade for Ellis? They likely won’t take Rubio because they have Curry. They won’t take Wes because Wright is better. Maybe they take Beasley for him. Maybe.

by Simitar on Feb 22, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Disagree with your Darko consequences

Rambis is stubborn enough to go with the triangle no matter what. Keeping Darko had no affect on that.
Kahn was not going to have Cousins come in here with his attitude, and after he skipped our workout. Think Matt Garza with the Twins. Yes, it looks like a good fit on paper, but it wasn’t going to happen regardless of whether or not Darko was here. Cousins would have thrown a fit. And even if he does have a lot of potential, what has he given to Sac other than major headaches? Last I checked, they’re not good either.

by Wu on Feb 22, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions  

1000%

The meme that we passed on Cousins for Darko is complete bunk. We didn’t like his attitude, much like NJ and Philly didn’t.

by Vlade on Feb 22, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't say "you guys"; there was much debate about DMC and plenty of people here wanted him. Bad.

But in terms of the Wolves FO, I think it’s now obvious that they’re more willing to accept the Randolph/Darko kind-of headcase who need a bellyrub (tm SnP), more than the Cousins kind-of headcase, which is a volcano. And really, that seems to be a pretty standard NBA practice.

Me personally, I would’ve taken the chance on DMC.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 22, 2011 3:14 PM CST up reply actions  

It's a matter of degree

There may have been rumblings about how Randolph has been difficult to teach or rein in. What we don’t hear about are punches thrown, suspensions, blowups at coaches. I say this as a guy who likes Cousins: Anthony Randolph, though a head case, is not nearly at the level of head case as Cousins has proven to be in only half a season.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Just FYI

Because the wolves stayed under the cap by moving Brewer, none of the usual trade restrictions apply to them – if they found a taker, they could turn around and trade Curry and/or Randolph in combination with any other players on their roster today.

That said, “Eddy Curry’s Expiring Contract” probably sounds a lot less appetizing to GSW than “straight cash (homie)…” So I don’t necessarily disagree with your point.

by hopps on Feb 22, 2011 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for correcting my mistake, hopps

I didn’t know this trade restriction rule did not apply to teams under the cap. This fact makes the Knicks trade less unappetizing, but does make a trade for Ellis more difficult nonetheless.

by ThisIsForSota on Feb 22, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Thank you--

I think the “pace” thing goes back to the marketing dept./front office. “United We Run” can be translated to “We’re not going to be good, but we are going to be flying all over the court, even though that’s a philosophy that fails miserably in the playoffs and we don’t really have the personnel to make it work (besides the outlet passer whom we’re trying to trade).”

Barring another trade, they’re going to have to spend the rest of the season going for wins. A short bench, a slower pace, more veterans, and less showcasing and talent development. They have nothing but actual wins to sell to ticketholders and advertisers, and the lockout isn’t going to help.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 8:15 AM CST reply actions  

about the best realistic line-up for nest season:
It’s kinda hard to stress defense when your best three players (Love, Curry, Beas) can’t play it at all.

about the trade:

AR looks like an ideal frountcourt partner for Love: long, athletic, good shotblocker, can handle the ball well. Who cares who will be called PF or C, just play them together. With Beasley as a 6th man, this has potential.

by tanat-0s on Feb 22, 2011 8:17 AM CST reply actions  

A lot of good stuff

Brewer moves also opens up wing time. Webster & Wes will still be playing SG minutes.

Beas move to bench doesn’t make sense. If there is one thing the team should over the course of the rest of the season is restore Beasley to alpha scorer role. The guy should have 20 shots a game. Period.

Plus with Beas on the bench there aren’t enough legit scoring on the floor. If Darko is off, we’ll be down by 10-15 every time he enters.

Lot of great analysis SnP. My one nitpick is you need to edit. Seriously. Try to say the same thing in less typing.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 8:20 AM CST reply actions  

For example you could say

Until Jonny proves he can play in practice, we shouldn’t play him.

There, 4 paragraphs down to one, brief sentence.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 8:25 AM CST up reply actions  

(To me this seems like a few different posts together.)

This trade alone.
Other potential trades before deadline.
State of roster, how to work rotations. (Love, building of team around him.)

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 8:28 AM CST up reply actions  

WTF?

What a random, douchey thing to say. Ever heard of supporting your point?

by saudagg on Feb 22, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Ever heard of telling it like it is?

The man cannot play professional ball. Put him on a Euro team and I bet all you would see in his stat line is DNP-CD.

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

I was talking about Rodman's "editing advice"

for SnP. He’s visiting a blog to read written Wolves takes and is complaining about too much writing.

Rip Flynn all you want. He’s earned it.

by saudagg on Feb 22, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Speaking of douches...

What up saudagg. Go back to washington and route for the wizards. Wanker. Its edawg.

by Tollysnipes on Feb 22, 2011 3:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Uncalled for

I know SG can and will defend herself if neccasary, but I’ll say this – I don’t think she EVER “routed” for the Wizards. So, Tolly, take a long walk on a short pier.

Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)

by frankenhoops on Feb 22, 2011 9:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Whoever starts, Mike Beasley can get up his shots.

Rambis hadn’t benched Beasley before, and was still managing to get him on the floor when he subbed Love out.

Thinking about the rotation in the front court, the one thing that sticks out like a sore thumb to me is that it’s time for Darko’s role to evolve, and right now. Today. We’ve stirred the pot; there are different ways to play this lineup now. Rambis needs to find a way to avoid the dump-it-in-so-Darko-can-cough-up-the-ball-to-a-doubleteam offense. Defensively, Randolph is another shot blocker; in the course of a game how do those matchups go.

I really wonder about the handoff between Kahn and Rambis on this. Rambis had started Corey. Was that a trade value thing, in part? Was he fully on board with this move?

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 8:27 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Darko definitely should have less spoon fed to him

And needs to move his but to get open for slashes (a generous term when talking about Darko, but you get the point) and back cuts for easy lay-ups.

Wonder that too about Corey with Rambis. I, for one, would just like to invest the time in Wes.

Now we get to the interesting part of the season. Oh, how we’ve suffered. But now I start to have my eye on lottery balls, and will have mixed feelings if we start winning. In other words, I’d love to trade for a SG who can fill it up, but should we just ride it out and give the kids playing time? Will continued losing just be bad for them? So should we risk sacrificing the highest pick we’ll see (hopefully) for a long time (Rubio be damned I’d taking Irving), just for a few wins?

Psychologically and for the fan base, I’d take wins, but, I sure would love a #1 pick.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 8:48 AM CST up reply actions  

"My one nitpick is you need to edit."

My impression is that this was an unfinished piece that SnP tacked onto the post because it had some ideas he still thought were relevant, even if the post wasn’t quite appropriate now that the trade has happened. Yep, there’s a lot of repetition here, but compare that to the huge sample size of SnP’s other posts. I think it at least warrants a charitable reading.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Fair enough

No doubt an unfair comment from me. SnP writes a ton and I appreciate his hard work. It takes a long freakin’ time.

That said, I genuinely believe he would be a more effective writer/communicator if he boiled down his content.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 10:51 AM CST up reply actions  

I really don't like the trade.

I’d feel a lot better about it if we got a guard in the deal. Out of all of the people to trade they trade someone that actually knows how to steal and usually is solid. We have a huge hole now. I wouldn’t hold your breath on getting any of the players above especially with the way Flynn is marketed, I doubt they’d trade him. He would be the first on my list for a trade though.

by fantwolves on Feb 22, 2011 8:22 AM CST reply actions  

That reaction comes down to how much people value Corey Brewer.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 8:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Consideringthe 1st for AR was rumored for a long time

I’m a little disappointed by picking up Curry but not overly so. I do wish we ha somehow gotten a guard as well but I’ll give Webster the rest of the season and watch college hoops and hope we draft well.

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 8:29 AM CST reply actions  

Another potential undiscussed advantage of this trade

is that I believe David Stern likes having small-market teams (for monopolization of professional sports dollars), and Carmelo going to the Knicks (and CPaul and DWill and DHow grumbling about going to larger markets) increases the odds that the owners may push for a “franchise” player option for their teams. This may benefit a small-market team with very young potential stars—assuming they actually develop, and Glen is actually willing to pay them.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 8:48 AM CST reply actions  

It also would be funny if we ended up with a hard cap

The Knicks, Heat & Lakers would not be in good shape.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 8:51 AM CST up reply actions  

As I was just reading on Posting and Toasting:
@chadfordinsider
Knicks have no center. Thin bench. And won’t have the cap space to pay CP3, Deron Williams over any other top FA in 2012.
the looming CBA negotiations could see the salary cap shrink. the knicks have $40+ million tied up in 2 of 15 roster spots.
by Chakroot on Feb 21, 2011 10:41 PM CST

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 8:54 AM CST up reply actions  

Was over there too

I’ve never seen such a schizophrenic serious of posts in my life.

The big 3 in Miami all took pay cuts. Melo & Stat didn’t. Thus no big 3 in NY. I still can’t figure out what they’ll do. But it will be fun to watch.

If there is one thing I appreciate about the Knicks is there willingness to swing for the fences. It may blow up in their face for years, but I do respect that.

It’s an interesting debate. You give up multiple good (but replaceable) assets, for something not readily had…. a legit superstar who can score 30 a game (and 50 every once in a while). I think the Knicks made the right move.

It goes back to the debate on Love. He’s an awesome rebounder. Even a rebounding legend. But you still would take a legit superstar over him every day (Rose, Durant, etc). But I doubt that offer will present itself (to clarify, you don’t trade Love for anything less than a legit superstar… i.e. not Favors, Turner, etc).

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions  

Carmelo is a "volume scorer" superstar.

I’m not super sold on Anthony as the Superstar you build a championship around. A couple of years ago, when he first cut off that awful hairdo, it was like he’d turned a corner and actually figured out the all-around game it took.

The hoopshype description of his game sort of hits the right opening notes for me:

Very versatile… Able to score in many ways…

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Got my doubts too

But the dude is a stone cold killer in crunch time.

At the Garden, he’s going to blow the roof off. That crowd is a legitimate 6th man. They are going to go crazy for him. And he’ll feed off of it.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Super-scorer not star

but he will be fun to watch under the NY lights. The problem is that microscope can burn if things don’t work out well. They should be competitive this year but I am curious what is going to happen this offseason and if they can somehow manage to upgrade in fa or if they become a victim in this trade.

by Breaking Ankles on Feb 22, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes,

I think they’re going to be the big losers out of this. Boston already has a vastly superior culture of defense, and Chicago’s a big-market young team that is building something similar. Stoudemire goes to the bench and puts hotpacks on his knees, and even when he’s healthy, I’m not sure he and ’Melo are enough to win more than a series in the playoffs.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:10 AM CST up reply actions  

They'll definitely need to pull a few more Landry Fields out of their hat

Hit a homerun their 1rst rounder this year.

And find someone to guard Rose. I think Rose is a huge x-factor this whole playoffs. Think Chicago is knocking off one of the big boys this year.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 9:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Houston can swap firsts with them next year, and has New York's pick in 2012 unless it's top-5.

Not sure New York’s adding all that much through the draft in the medium term. You’re right, it has to be Fields-type finds.

(If Chicago beats New York in the playoffs, I wouldn’t think of that as a upset at all.)

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 9:20 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree on the Chicago vs Knicks

I think Chicago still has a better team after this trade.

by Breaking Ankles on Feb 22, 2011 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Even without Isiah Thomas around, are they building another of his teams?

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 9:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh, Zeke's

around. And when Walsh wheels his way out of the front office, Dolan’s favorite failure will be right there to formally step back in.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions  

The Heat would be fine.

They’re at the cap, not over it. You have to renounce your exceptions before you sign guys, thus, once your big signings are done, there’s nothing you can do to go over the cap. A hard cap would prevent them from using next year’s MLE on a Kendrick Perkins type free agent center, but that’s hardly the end of the world.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Feb 22, 2011 9:04 AM CST up reply actions  

Heat

with their core are still probably the best team for the “aging vet looking for a ring” too (like Boston was for awhile)

With a full off-season, I think they’ll be able to get better players than Big Z, Juwan Howard, Eddie House and Jamaal Magloire.

Steve Nash would be a pretty good fit for a distributing PG on the heat (not sure if he’s at that point in his career)

by TwinATL on Feb 22, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

You know

I’m a optimist to the point that it almost gets me in trouble, and I’ll admit that. I think this whole Melo trade is kinda weird. It seems odd that the Knicks would wanna break the Felton/Stoudimire thing they had going. But I guess bringing Melo to a big stage should make him happy. I hope so, for the sake of any Knicks fans.

As for the wolves. I have always hoped they picked up Anthony Randolph. From the moment I understood that people were not advocating for Zach Randolph.

Eddy Curry is NBD. Nothing about this is a bad move, I’m just not sure that it is all that great of one. This is clearly not the singular move that Kahn was talking about. We probably need one or two more singular moves.

by Michael C. Boosalis II on Feb 22, 2011 9:07 AM CST reply actions  

My reaction to the trade: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

This was Kahn/Ronzone/Taylor/Rambis’ last opportunity to capitalize on the mid-season cap space we had, and they failed. We HAD to do something if we were going to ensure that we wouldn’t be in this same position next year. Unfortunately, we didn’t do anything. Now we’re on the fast track towards Clippergeddon.

This year sucks, and we have a high lottery pick on the way. How are we going to feel this time next year?

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 9:08 AM CST reply actions  

Depends on Rubio and the Draft (assuming no work stoppage)

And Kahn sucks at drafting.

One downside is that maybe this kind of move keeps Kahn employed longer. Hey, at least he can get a Beasely/Randolph for almost nothing.

But, ultimately. teams like MN only will leap forward through the Draft if they get their “Tim Duncan/Kevin Garnett/Lebron” moment. And he can’t draft. Are Curry and Cousins transformational players… Maybe not. But he made the wrong picks.

Better hope Rubio is a top-flight PG and Kahn doesn’t screw up Draft, again. Then, next year we approach respectability.

by ChicagoViking on Feb 22, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions  

It is impossible for the Wolves to be successful with

Rubio and Rambis. All Timberwolves fans should view this combination as oil and water.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 9:31 AM CST up reply actions  

If it's worth anything..

…my spaz post comes on the day after the trade deadline. They only have $2.8 mil in cap space until draft day. I think it’s possible to view the two things as seperate items (i.e. Randolph trade = good and not using tail end of Jefferson cap space = horribly bad. They can still convert it via a trade involving existing salary.)

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Sure they can...

But now we’re one of many teams with a large expiring contract (Curry). Our ace in the hole was allowing a team to shave salary THIS YEAR, and that is now out the door.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:36 AM CST up reply actions  

What's the end game????

We absolutely positively 100% CANNOT be “re-building” next year with Clipper/Nuggetgeddon on its way.

This trade has put us on that collision course.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree that there is no apparent end game

With this crew (outside of CYA for Kahn) but this trade isn’t the thing that put them on that route. It is general incompetence on Kahn’s part. If they don’t use Curry’s salary to get a good player, then…ugh.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Assuming Taylor doesn't let them use all of the Jefferson cap-space I'd like to think the AR move frees up Pekovic for trade

With Darko/Goufos/Tolliver/AR/Love all able to man the 5 depending on match ups.

Pekovic plus Flynn or Johnson or Webster plus cap space and out going picks would allow for some room to go after a SG if anywone is interested in our “assets”

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

The Clippers are trying to trade

the Wolves pick to the Nuggets for Galianarianari

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

(Whoa, good for Denver.)

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Ah, I saw that down below.

Interesting. Doesn’t seem worth it for Gallinari.

by saudagg on Feb 22, 2011 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

It's not though

I doubt it will happen, but they can still cut a simultaneous trade involving Curry and other assets. It’s not out the door with this trade (which landed them a better player than they let go). When it does go out the door, it won’t be because of this trade. It will be because of Taylor not wanting to bring on any additional salary. Technically, nothing is stopping the Wolves from using Curry to make a deal happen that is similar to any deal they could have made with the cap space. They will need to make a simultaneous trade and it’s slightly more complicated, but the opportunity is still there.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I guess I'm being more dismissive of that option...

But I would be ecstatic if we did end up combining Curry with Flynn and/or Johnson for a player who is actually productive.

I also wonder if Kahn will attempt to change his narrative with the addition of Anthony Randolph. It seems like another opportunity for Kahn to try and delay the inevitable. Inevitable=Accountability.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah..

…it’s a long shot at this point and he’ll spin it to further the time before he is fired. Here’s a quick list of what raw cap space could have bought:

ATL Marvin Williams + Zaza Pachulia
CHA Gerald Wallace + Kwame Brown
       Stephen Jackson + Eduardo Nájera
CHI Luol Deng
CLE Mo Williams + J.J. Hickson
       Anderson Varejão + Daniel Gibson
DAL Shawn Marion + DeShawn Stevenson
       Jason Terry + Rodrigue Beaubois
DEN Nenê
       J.R. Smith + Chris Andersen
DET Tayshaun Prince
       Ben Gordon
GSW Monta Ellis
       Andris Biedrins + Stephen Curry
HOU Kevin Martin + Ish Smith
       Shane Battier + Brad Miller
IND Danny Granger
       Mike Dunleavy + Josh McRoberts
LAC Chris Kaman
LAL Lamar Odom + Derek Fisher
MEM Marko Jaric + O.J. Mayo
MIL Andrew Bogut
       John Salmons + Carlos Delfino
NJN Troy Murphy
       Travis Outlaw + Anthony Morrow
NOH Emeka Okafor
       Trevor Ariza + Marcus Banks
OKC Mo Peterson + Jeff Green
ORL Hedo Turkoglu + Daniel Orton
       J.J. Redick + Brandon Bass
PHI Andres Nocioni + Evan Turner
PHO Josh Childress + Mickael Pietrus
POR Marcus Camby
SAN Richard Jefferson + Matt Bonner
TOR Leandro Barbosa + Linas Kleiza
       José Calderón + Ed Davis
UTA Paul Millsap + C.J. Miles
       Mehmet Okur + Ronnie Price
WAS Kirk Hinrich + Nick Young

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm confused

what is this list? You think we could have pulled off these deals or you just went through every team and put together roughly $10M with an asset and a contract?

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

The latter

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Q: Kevin Martin?

A: “Don’t like the contract.”

Well that sucks. He was sold off for expirings and minor assets. We could have had him. It’s hard to dislike his contract now.

On the other hand, I can’t totally rip into Kahn, because a year ago I would have said the same thing about Monta Ellis, whose contract is the same as Martin’s. Stuff changes.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Feb 22, 2011 9:09 AM CST reply actions  

"No downside" None.

Please. There is always “opportunity costs” (better known as downside).

If winning is defined in Minnesota as having the youngest, least experienced team in the NBA, well, we are winning. Too bad we can’t draft kids out of grade school.

Tolliver is correct. The best moments (few and far between) with Randolph have been in an open-court situation playing against non-starters. They have not been in a set offense (which represents the lion’s share of offensive possessions in the NBA) much less the triangle.

Yea, there’s a downside. Especially for fans who desire a near-term winning franchise. For instance, Brewer could have been a chip in a bigger deal that would have potentially brought bonafide talent to the languishing Wolves.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 9:19 AM CST reply actions  

How's it going over there,

today?

As soon as I get Randolph’s actual number, I’ll send you the custom Wolves jersey I’m having made for you.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:22 AM CST up reply actions  

We will C

I hope I’m wrong. It would be interesting to see how many of our commenters were hyped back when the Wolves got Gerald Green too. Rodney Carney comes to mind also.

For a moment, I thought you were making a meaningful response to my meaningful comment. But that’s okay.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 9:24 AM CST up reply actions  

I know you don't like Randolph

but you never proposed another alternative that was cost-neutral. This team is going to keep rolling out young, flawed-with-potential players until wins and revenue increase. The sooner you accept that, the happier you will be.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:29 AM CST up reply actions  

You're presenting an impossible cycle....

With Kahn drafting, wins won’t come until we take on better players (with higher salaries), only then will revenues increase.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 9:35 AM CST up reply actions  

Luck, my friend,

luck.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:41 AM CST up reply actions  

What?

The happier I will be? lol

I don’t take myself or the Wolves seriously.

As to the Wolves, “until wins and revenue increase?” That’s a non-starter. “Rolling out young, flawed-with-potential players” does not equate to victories, never has and never will. This is what the D-League is supposed to do.

You can’t dine at the playoff table while relying on table scraps. The problem is that the team has been languishing so long that some fans lose their prospective. They think any stroke with “potential” is additive to the team. As for Randolph, I’d like to be encouraged but where is the data to suppose the excitement on this board? It doesn’t exist.

No, the true downside for the Wolves is that guys like Kevin Love (remember KG), with actual proven talent, leave to join a team that not only banks on “potential” but has the history of winning. Winners like winning.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 10:16 AM CST up reply actions  

I've been meaning to revisit my Carney–Wes Johnson comparison, actually.

Late May last year, me:

I don’t hate (Johnson), I just think at #4 he’s a soft-spot-of-the-apple sort of pick. He’s the pick you make if you can’t risk Cousins and you’re unable to make another move.

Rodney Carney’s game is running the floor to finish in transition, and parking back for threes. These are the exact same traits you’re talking about in Johnson. To call Johnson "Rodney Carney writ large" is not a slam.

Hey, I really thought that at the price he commanded, the Wolves should have kept Carney around last year. He’d have fit the running style, he provided some range shooting, and he came for nothing at all.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 9:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Carney had a Bowen-like characteristic...

of accurate shooting from the corner, but poor shooting everywhere else. It seems like Johnson’s a bit more of a pure shooter from different spots.

by Andy G on Feb 22, 2011 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll go with that.

He’s Carney “writ large” in a few senses that way.

I really liked Carney, in the same way that I liked Brewer. It’s hard not to root for a guy who’s busting his butt out there, and those redemption stories always work with me. At his cost – which was basically a minimum deal – I thought the Wolves should have re-signed him last year, to have another wing around who had a heartbeat.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Courtesy of ESPN's the mag

Wes Johnson is actually the league’s highest-percentage shooter from the “6” ish area of this diagram:

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 10:11 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

(Carney would have been higher on the right-corner version of "7.")

Andy G’s very right about where he liked his threes.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Carney and Green were very different situations.

Gerald Green was blown up as a potential “next T-Mac” by some posters, for sure. In general T-Wolves fandom was messed up over the KG trade, though. The word “hyped” could not have been further from the truth about that moment.

Carney was a minor pure cap pickup. He was something for nothing given the Sixers’ burning drive to sign Elton Brand, and given the cap situation at the time he had no downside to speak of. Posters weren’t giddy, but they liked the move because it made sense. Much closer to the reaction to this Randolph trade, though here we have the span of different ideas about Corey Brewer’s perceived value.

(For someone who dismisses the idea of firing Rambis because a specific list of potential replacements isn’t included in each post on the subject, you’re quite willing to sit in the “We could have gotten a bigger fish using Corey Brewer as part of the deal” hot tub, smokin’ your cigar.)

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 9:40 AM CST up reply actions  

Dad is averaging a nice 12 & 6 for Krasnie Krilya Samara

playing slightly better than Wes Johnson

Let's do an internet trade! Your Treasure for our Trash!

by Son of Gerald Green on Feb 22, 2011 6:39 PM CST up reply actions  

It goes to how much raw talent the kid had that I had to think what the "6" was, there.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 6:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks Feral

That’s a nice thing to say. I have a 3 am (US Time) Skype call with Pops and Primo Brezec tonight (for whatever reason, they’ve become the closest of friends) and I’ll be sure to pass along your kind words

Let's do an internet trade! Your Treasure for our Trash!

by Son of Gerald Green on Feb 22, 2011 6:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Better, and somewhat feasible, uses of the Cap Space...

1: Josh Smith for Flynn and/or Johnson

2: Varejao for Flynn and/or Johnson

3: Gerald Wallace for cap space or Flynn and/or Johnson

4: Tyrus Thomas for Cap Space

5. Kapono and Evan Turner for Johnson

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 9:29 AM CST reply actions  

So, we trade

our “nothing” or, worse (for the other team) “Flynn and/or Johnson” for the other team’s very productive players (or in #5, our crap for their crap)?

Yes, I’m on board with these ideas . . .

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:44 AM CST up reply actions  

But these are all feasible options...

That are no longer options because of this trade.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

Well, from the Wolves' standpoint, yes.

But throw those trades up at the opposing teams’ sites, and see how happy the fans would be about any of them.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions  

I like #1 the best.

25-year old J-Smoove for JONNY! and Wes sounds good to me.

by Andy G on Feb 22, 2011 10:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Shaving salaries does not engender enthusiasm...

But it still happens.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Sure,

but there are too many playoff-type teams willing to go all-in on these types of players. They’ll generally offer more than cap space and/or the opportunity to overpay David Kahn’s draft mistakes.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 10:15 AM CST up reply actions  

Ha. I'd thought you were joking.

The “somewhat feasible” made me think the “%” had just been left off your post.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

We don't know that they are feasible. We hope they are.

Salary dumps happen, but not all the time and not just because Yahoo reports the player might be on the block.

For the record I wanted more too.

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 9:55 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm arguing from a tough spot for sure...

But I feel pretty comfortable in saying that the Wolves could have pulled off at least one of these trades. And I would prefer ALL of them over Anthony Randolph.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions  

So,

why wouldn’t they have pulled off the trades, if they could have?

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 10:16 AM CST up reply actions  

3 reasons...

1) Didn’t ask.

2) Taylor refuses to pay up.**

3) Improperly valuing players. Either values the players I mentioned on other teams too low, or the Flynn/Johnson too highly.

**Kahn might try to use this as an excuse. It is not. Taylor’s refusal to pay is an indictment of Kahn’s ineptitude.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Think the bigger issue is the team still needs a legit #1 guy

And that’s we’re we should save our pennies for (given GT’s cheapness).

Let’s just pray the skies part and we draft a budding superstar this year. That’s our best hope.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 10:31 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't get your second point.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

We're adding salary...

Which Taylor might refuse to do.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

I get that part. I just don't understand how Taylor's being cheap

is an indictment of Kahn’s ineptitude.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 10:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Because he wouldn't be cheap...

If Kahn had proven over the past year and a half to have any ability to improve this team.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Is that really true though?

I thought Kahn was hired in part because of his willingness to keep Taylor’s financial commitment low?

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 10:40 AM CST up reply actions  

I think it is

The only reason Taylor is back to being interested in this team is because Kahn and Rambis were sucking it up to the point where Papa Glen had to stop touring the world with his wife to donate hearing aids and pay attention to the mess. Just my opinion, however.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Also think GT miscalculated

(As I did) The fan base’s willingness to rebuild, yet again. And go through all the losses and hardship that is required.

No matter what we all think about GT, DK, or KR, we still have only assembled this team this year! It takes a while to build chemistry and play well together. And under perfect circumstances (i.e. with Kobe or MJ), the triangle took about a year and a half to install (which may prove to be the worst miscalculation of all by Rambis, but that’s another story).

So our thorough suckitude is to be expected.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

Actually

Papa Glen is more interested because his limit shareholders started to refuse the capital calls and were starting to make some noise about legal action. (Minority shareholders rights type stuff – need a legal guy to comment here – beyond my understanding)

Glen has to stop the losses. Hence the budget. And the tension between the business and basketball side.

by Just A Fan on Feb 22, 2011 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Heavy is

the head . . .

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Right

The sucking led to losses which led to what you are describing. I’ve never seen this team so worried about money as it has been of late. I also think the upcoming CBA has something to do with it. Other owners don’t want to pay for Papa Glen’s Awful Experience.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

You're kidding yourself.

At least two of those are completely ludicrous suggestions that would elicit a storm of laughter on the other team’s board.

You suggest Philly fans are going to give up an asset with Evan Turner to get Wes Johnson? No, they are not. You suggest Atlanta could plausibly accept Jonny Flynn straight up for Josh Smith. That is insane.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 11:29 AM CST up reply actions  

The Philly trade isn't crazy

Doug Collins was very high on Wes Johnson, both because he values him as a player and as a fit next to Andre Iguodala. I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all to suggest that Philly would have agreed to a swap of Turner for Johnson if they were also able to unload a 6 million salary this year.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

They didn't touch that when it was draft day, and wouldn't now.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Except

the year is 2/3 over, so it’s not really $6 million.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

Then Nocioni

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Then

ick.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you kidding?

Josh Smith, Gerald Wallace, even Tyrus Thomas… those are not at all feasable! If you were the GM on the other team and you were offered those trades you would laugh.

by Wu on Feb 22, 2011 10:06 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Not if you're trying to shed salary, get younger, or both...

Which all of these teams want to do.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:13 AM CST up reply actions  

Even under those circumstances, there is a trade market out there,

and there’s a vanishingly remote chance that Atlanta could offer Josh Smith out there and not get anything more than “Flynn and/or Johnson.”

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Excited for a flynn trade.

Kahn basically admitted it in dat lass interview yall. Question for CH: would yall trade Jonny for one free Juicy Lucy (venue ta be voted on) for ALL CH posters? I wud,.

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Feb 22, 2011 9:47 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

I will go further

and offer to buy a Juicy Lucy for whichever team is willing to take him on.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

make sure it is regular fries

I don’t know if he’s worth the sweet potato ones (those are so good!)

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Fries are all about the seasoning

mmm deep fried goodness is making me hungry and all I have is a banquet chicken fingers meal for lunch =(

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Is that open up yet?

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

Shamrocks

Same ownership/menu, shorter wait.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 9:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Love that thing

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 10:12 AM CST up reply actions  

That looks impossible to eat

as a burger. I’m sure it can be consumed, but it has to be pretty labor-intensive.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

It's so labor intensive...

..the Governor of Wisconsin [insert joke here].

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Hey, I defended you up above

about the redundancies, and now you come down here and put “the Governor of Wisconsin” and “joke” in the same sentence? :)

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

;)

It will be interesting to see how Wisconsin plays out.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Your thoughts on that?

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Your thoughts on

the Dairyland Dilemna?

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

I think that the debate needs to happen about why the union is necessary

If it really results in better educated students I’m all for it. However if it just results in status quo for more money that’s a problem. It is kinda funny about the Dems running out of the state. It seems like we need an honest debate and not a bunch of people with signs (i’m talking about both sides)

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

One of the biggest mistakes I've made recently

was turning on K-TALK on my way home last Friday. Some guy named ‘Joe’ (don’t remember his last name) was talking about the Wisconsin thing on his show. It made me feel sorry for the world.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree

Talk radio is insane.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

At one point, he unveiled the argument

that teacher pay – since “liberals” make the argument that education benefits society – should be directly tied to the state’s GNP. If the GNP rises, so does teacher pay. If it goes down, so does teacher pay.

I haven’t paid much attention to the Wisconsin debate and I’m sure there are fine points on each side. But that was definitely not one of them.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Don't ever say "I'll hang up and take my answer off the air"

when on the phone with the wife and she’s giving you a list of things to pick up at the store. She won’t get it. Totally over her head. Or she doesn’t listen to sports radio. It’s one of those two things..

Let's do an internet trade! Your Treasure for our Trash!

by Son of Gerald Green on Feb 22, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I think I'll try that out

Also, the next time I call home while out and about I’ll use the “Long time listener, first time caller” line.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 6:51 PM CST up reply actions  

That's also strong SnP

I have told my wife that our infant son has “ridiculous upside” and my wife responded “for what?”

My response: “Um, not sure. No one ever responds in that way to ‘ridiculous upside’”

Let's do an internet trade! Your Treasure for our Trash!

by Son of Gerald Green on Feb 22, 2011 6:54 PM CST up reply actions  

Just don't tell her...

…that the reason your child is not responding to her discipline is because he or she needs to play in a different system. I tried that once. Once.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 6:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

You’re not gonna get anything more than “Republican Governor bad!” or “Unions bad!” from talk radio. Not a lot of nuance or sussing out of the actual issues.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

I am not the most educated person in the world

And I would like to see information about why the unions make the students better. I think that the teachers would do better talking about that than waving signs and talking about wanting to organize.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure that the ability to collectively bargain for wages and benefits

The mechanism anyone should use to talk about making students better. Does one affect the other? Sure, but collective bargaining is about many other things first.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:56 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

That's fine

What I know is that if I was a parent in WIS I would care more about the education my student recieves rather than the teacher’s check. I think that the focus is in the wrong place. There also comes a point like my dad told me. “I’d love to buy you a car it would make everything for the family more convienent and you happy, but I don’t have the money.”

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I am the most educated person in the world

and the issue here is do “we” want to let “the market” determine teachers’ salaries and benefits? I place quotes around “we” because I don’t know what the hell it means in this context, and I place quotes around “the market” because for some people “the market” is the shiny, happy place were laborers earn their marginal product and to others “the market” is the place where labor is bent over and….

Markets are really, really bad at correctly pricing goods/services whose benefits/costs are not captured entirely by the purchaser of the good/service. This is called an externality. Unions are not the only solution to this externality.

There’s no reason to believe that without unions, teachers will be paid according to how much they benefit students. really, why would they be paid that way? How do you know a good teacher? How does a school district know a good teacher or rather a teacher that adds more value to a students’ life time earnings? It’s not easy.

Should a math teacher make more than an english teacher? What’s more damaging to lifetime earnings? The inability to calculate a percentage or the inability to write a coherent memo?

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Feb 22, 2011 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow that's cool that you are the most educated person in the world

props to you! My point was that what the kids learn is the most important. When you end up paying more for more of the same, it usually isn’t the best way to go forward. I am not saying I know the best way. I am asking if the union is the best way or at least the best of available ways. Even if it is the best way, can you you pay for it?
On another note littleboxes if you are the smartest man in the world maybe you can put that to use in a better way than regulating fanposts/fanshots. (JK)

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions  

littleboxes is the President and sole member

of the “FanShots Committee”. If he doesn’t regulate them, who will?

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

good point Tim

We would be lost as a blog.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions  

This reply

should be a fanpost.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:56 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

While I agree with most of your post

I disagree with the second paragraph (maybe this is a mistake as you are, indeed, the most educated person in the world). Markets are really good. I’m all for teachers earning more money and even more for improving the quality of teachers, but the market is pretty efficient at pricing them. If they were paid $100,000 or more, then we’d have way too many teachers on our hands (you could argue that we already do, if you’re a recent grad seeking a teaching gig). Supply and demand are phenomenal! Once again though, I wish there was less of a demand and higher quality (maybe we should make teaching a 5 or 6 year degree at minimum and then just pay them more???) and that teachers did make more money. I’m just saying, as things currently are, the markets have priced it fairly efficiently.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions  

The market always seems to price

my income way too low.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Tim,

anyonce can flip burgers. Anyone with hands at least. This means there is a large supply with your abilities. A large supply means a low demand.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Now that's just demeaning

He’s been moved to fry duty.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

heh

you said ‘duty’

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

duty ebi

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Preach the truth!
A large supply means a low demand.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:59 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey, it's not just flipping burgers, man.

I have to refill all of the ketchups. I have to put ice in the beverage machine. I have to occasionally make ice cream cones with the little whirly q.

And don’t get me started when someone says, “no pickles”. I liked it better when we told the customer what we were putting on the burger and they had to either pick it off or eat it.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions  

What is your PER when it comes to whirly q's?

I am glad that you are not just a one dimensional worker. I think that soon you can maybe join other stars and make a run at a championship.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Frankly, as a man married to a teacher

the best thing you can do for your children (and their classmates) is to instill in them enough discipline that they can function in a classroom. The teachers really aren’t allowed to do anything that remotely relates to discipline, just about the only tool they have is bribery.

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Right

but let’s not get into the collective bargaining issues that are going on the with Parent’s Union.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Efficient market

For the market for teachers to be efficient it must be the case that a teacher’s wage equals his/her marginal product (the value of).

Excess supply at a low wage does not prove efficiency or even a loose concept like “approximately efficient.”

In fact, quantity supplied = quantity demanded is a property of all equilibria, not just the efficient ones.

And, what’s wrong with high wages? Do we have too many investment bankers and NBA basketball players on our hands? Lots of people would play in the NBA for $30,000 a year. Does that imply that $30,000 is an efficient wage for an NBA basketball player?

to be less metaphysical: do you know anything about how teachers are hired? How is their marginal product measured? Is the market competitive? Are teachers homogenous products that buy and sell their labor in one market place? No, they are heterogenous products and potential teachers and school face high search costs. I guarantee you that whatever little econ 101 model you have in your head has a ton of assumptions that are violated in the teacher labor market. Does that prove the market is inefficient? No. But to suggest that it is efficient because people are willing to work at the prevailing wage is incorrect.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Feb 22, 2011 7:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Even when they are nakedly political issues

They can’t seem to find a decent way to talk about them in anything other than he-said, she-said fashion. I think the big problem the modern media has is they are completely unable to accurately present something without trying to assign blame at more than a 50/50 split.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

They can’t seem to find a decent way to talk about them in anything other than he-said, she-said fashion. I think the big problem the modern media has is they are completely unable to accurately present something without trying to assign blame at more than a 50/50 split.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Absolutely

Take for instance the issue of global warming. The issue is not whether or not it is happening, it is to what extent we are responsible for it and what (if anything) we should be doing about it. However the media often believes they need to fairly present the issue by getting a person that doesn’t believe in it to speak, when no reputable scientist will take that position.

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I've not read him since Jurrasic Park

Should State of Fear be on my to-read list?

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Good god no.

What a stinking pile of climate denialist bullshit. Even if for some reason you are sympathetic to the position, it’s just boring. Just tons of denialist talking points thrown at an “open-minded” (read: gullible) character who finds a way to solve a mystery of some sort (the details of which were so unremarkable that I can’t even remember them.).

by hopps on Feb 22, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions  

The biggest problem with the global warming debate

is that it was framed in the context of global warming instead of focusing on our impact on our environment. I find it is better to frame issues around something you can control versus letting someone label the issue with a far reaching description that gives the impression of helplessness.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Feb 22, 2011 3:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Sometimes I wonder...

..if rational people know anyone on Madison Avenue. Apparently not.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I always thought those talk radio’s in Grand Theft Auto were parody … now it turns out they’re pretty accurate .. hmm :)

by Wim (Belgium) on Feb 22, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I try not to think about it

I just order pizza for the protesters. I think it’s an attempt to cripple the last remaining large political donation base for the Democratic party more than anything else. I don’t think there’s any real policy based initiative on the Governor’s side of things. It’s about money and political fighting, which is too bad, because there are a lot of good issues that could be talked about. I don’t buy the “both sides do it” argument. This is an aggressive move by the Governor to go at the heart of his opposition party’s electorate. I’m not sure what the “fair and balanced” counter-proposal would be. Banning corporate donations? I’m not sure. Whatever it is, it’s not a basic policy argument. It’s a shot at the heart of Wilson’s opposition.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

FWIW

I’m not sure why people are surprised for Wilson doing something that is completely understandable from his point of view. He’s swinging for the fences.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:43 AM CST up reply actions  

Freudian slip?

Calling Walker WIlson? Or are you trying to get a rise out of the Tea Party Kock brother defenders by invoking Woodrow Wilson’s name? ;)

by Facial on Feb 22, 2011 3:53 PM CST up reply actions  

D'oh!

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:05 PM CST up reply actions  

This just in.

Tennessee getting in on the action.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

You are wrong

The Republicans have wanted to un-do the New Deal legislation from the get go. Now, with the help of sell out Democrats like Clinton and Obama, they are very close to finishing their mission.

I used to work for a Republican MN state senator years ago, and behind closed doors these people talk about how they would like to get rid of public schools completely.

by lordbaldric on Feb 22, 2011 12:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I know you are

but what am I?

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you serious?

I know that Republicans were against entitlement programs when they were enacted, but they’re as fervent of defenders of them as anyone these days. Nobody’s touching those things.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

I didn't even bring up entitlement programs.

I said Republicans were pro-union busting and anti-public education. But as long as you’ve mentioned it, yes, they also hate the entitlement programs.

Were you awake when most of Obama’s “deficit reduction committee” favored cuts to entitlement programs? Or when Bush tried to privitize Social Security?

Cutting the Social Security tax from 6% to 4% for “this year only” is step one to undermine the program.

by lordbaldric on Feb 22, 2011 1:03 PM CST up reply actions  

That was his deficit committee

Created by a bipartisan duo, and rejected by the right’s supposed biggest fiscal hawk, Paul Ryan. Neither the right nor left supported it to any notable extent.

I agree with you on their penchant for union-busting and some of the distaste for public education. And though you may have experience with those who hate entitlements, very few pols of any prominence have come out for cutting them recently. In fact, one of the biggest talking points of the Republicans’ defense against health care was that the bill would cut Medicare expenditures – a cost-saving measure.

I’m just saying that they’re not talking the talk or walking the walk when it comes to anything substantive that has to happen. Neither side really is doing much, there. Sorry that it came of as so flippant.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 1:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Public Service employee

pensions are really no joke. They are unsustainable.

The mixture of unions + enabling politicians = bad medicine.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Except that it's never that simple

The unions in this case accepted lower wages for increased benefits. Now they’re being asked to have those cut. Unions + enabling politicians isn’t the problem. Failing to follow through on collectively bargained promises is. That’s a legitimate problem and people should be upset about it.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Especially

when the budget deficit that’s being corrected is one that the governor just created with a bunch of tax cuts for corporations. It’s robbing from Diogenes to pay Alexander.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 11:51 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Politifact

Is stating that though his tax cuts will increase the future deficit, they didn’t create the existing one.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Do you have a link to the accepted lower wages thing?

I don’t doubt you I would just like to read more about it.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

I just have been reading the Milwaukee and Madison papers

And Googling for background checks on their claims.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

My understanding is that they accepted lower pensions too

If the tax income for the state falls below a specific level, the payouts on the pensions are reduced. This was negotiated before the new gov came on the scene.

The irony is that Wisconsin is in good fiscal shape, and their pension obligations are tied to state revenues, they are already negotiated down, as it were, conditionally.

by timmuggs on Feb 22, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions  

You're right

Public service workers likely did bargain for lower wages in lieu of increased pensions. Still, one only needs look at the economies of California, Illinois and NY and see that there is no way their states or the federal government can live up to the obligations negotiated with politicians focused on re-election.

As someone who has spent decades negotiating collective bargaining agreements, I can assure you that motives may be genuine and sincere with virtually no foresight into the long-term feasibility.

Besides, didn’t the Wisc. Gov just get elected by Wisc voters while campaigning that he would do what he is essentially doing?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

"Besides, didn’t the Wisc. Gov just get elected by Wisc voters while campaigning that he would do what he is essentially doing?"

That’s resorting to an ad populum fallacy. “A lot of people like it” is different from—and a whole lot less important than—“it’s the right action.”

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

No, it's called democracy

Politicians running for office stating precisely what they propose to do and then doing it is called a mandate. Even when it is on your side of the argument.

As our president famously said, “I won.”

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

He campaigned on cutting benefits to public sector workers

Fine. That’s a point of fact. One could argue that needed to happen, and that would make sense to me. What he didn’t say, however, was that he was going to reduce their collective bargaining rights down almost nothing. That, in my mind, is not what he was campaigning on, and is a major distinction – one worth protesting over.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's be clear

Walker is attempting to put forth a going-forward requirement that teachers increase their contribution to (I believe) 12%.

The suggestion that such an increase is removing collective bargaining rights is hyperbole.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

No

The bill would make it illegal to bargain over anything other than wages. When they are bargaining over said wages, they can’t bargain for raises in inflation-adjusted dollars. So basically, they can bargain over next-to-nothing.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

It's a representative democracy.

The candidate says what he needs to in order to get elected, but one would hope that when that candidate gets into office, and has a chance to consider and weight all of the information, that he’d be open to doing otherwise if necessary. That’s why we debate things like this.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Indeed

If candidates did what they said they’d do, we’d have a public option. Too soon?;)

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

And gitmo would be closed

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly.

I voted for Obama, and would again if the election were held today. He’s neglected a number of things he promised—some that I find more compelling than what he’s addressed, and that disappoints me. But that didn’t give me any illusions that just because I voted for him he’d follow my priorities.

He’ll get done what he can. And so will Walker—hopefully to the best results for everyone, not just the people who voted for him.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

I wonder if there is a way...

…to switch Walker’s sticktoitiveness with Obama’s professorial aversion to straight up conflict.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess if it's either/or

I’d prefer Obama’s approach to Walkers, but you’re right—there’s a point at which Obama needs to say, “Enough with this silliness—we’re doing this.”

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 4:23 PM CST up reply actions  

It's always either-or

I learned that from the former president.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

And computer code

1100010001001001000100010010001000100010010.

Binary solo.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:29 PM CST up reply actions  

In destroying the humans

for their destructive ways we . . . do you see what we’ve done?

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

http://www.whatthefolk.net/shop.html

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Fine.

Cut their benefits and increase their pay. Public employees get the shaft all the time (I know, I am one of them). Any time the state has budget issues, the state employees take it in the nards. (We essentially get taxed our cost of living increases.) If they want to cut benefits, then they should have to make the pay commiserate or competitive with the private sector.

by Grover M on Feb 22, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Have the teacher's salaries been frozen etc similar to the the private sector?

I don’t know the answer. I also wonder how their pensions and healthcare compares to the private sector.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Private sector

changed in the 1980s. Instead of defined contribution pensions, private sector went to voluntary contribution. That is why 401k programs are prevalent everywhere other than private sector.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

There are private school teachers, for example.

Wonder how much they make? (I don’t know the answer, but I am guessing it is higher than your local public elementary.)

by Grover M on Feb 22, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Private school teachers typically get lower...

…salaries and benefits than public school teachers. Been that way for a long time.

by timmuggs on Feb 22, 2011 12:27 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I meant overall and not just teachers

I’m an education major and plan on teaching at a parachial school. I will get paid less with less benefits. There is an even bigger difference between people doing administration work for private schools and public schools. I was wondering about people in similar income levels in the private sector not teachers.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Well I am a public sector attorney...

And in taking the public sector job I took, I was making significantly less than 1/2 of what I could have made in the private sector (it is hard to compare the areas of law… i would have had to practice in a different area). Such a job is not a hypothetical, based upon where I went to school, had interviews, etc.

The difference is only exacerbated the higher up you go on the payscale (ie- my payscale for a non-supervisor tops out at less than $100k….obviously many people in private practice make MUCH MUCH more).

In a terrible economy, it is easy to point fingers at public sector employees, particularly where jobs are scare and there are people who are out of work and would gladly take a public job (although they wouldn’t want one in a good economy/given the choice :). In my field, however, I promise you we are vastly underpaid relative to the private sector.

 And one of the reasons people take these jobs (in addition to believing in and loving the work) is to have good benefits. (Our benefits are not obscene—things have changed drastically in recent years…it’s the retirees or people near retirement age who are more of an issue…. alas, it is difficult [and unfair???] to retroactively cut the benefits they worked and negotiated for).

by PDGirl on Feb 22, 2011 12:47 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't believe anyone is attempting to

isolate public sector vis-a-vis private sector.

If you’re concerned about inequities private v. public, why not land a private sector job?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

The fact is

that the private sector is not a monopoly. Structural changes occur all the time in the private sector.

In an open labor market system, private sector firms have to either be competitive with other private sector firms in terms of wages and benefits or fail to attract and retain top talent.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

He asked for an example.

I simply gave him mine. I never said I was “concerned about inequalities.” I chose my job and would do so again. For reasons that have nothing to do with “wages and benefits.” What I am concerned about is the misperception that people doing my job are overcompensated.

by PDGirl on Feb 22, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Certainly in the area of pensions

relative to the open labor market public service workers are overcompensated vis-a-vis private workers.

I can’t speak to the wage differentials that are getting thrown around as I have no specific data to confirm.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Probably a useless argument to have

as I was only speaking of my specific position (to which I believe your argument actually does not apply) and you are speaking in much broader terms about “public service workers”.

by PDGirl on Feb 22, 2011 3:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Because a legal aid lawyer does more good for the world than a corporate attorney, maybe?

Public sector workers often do their job because they believe in what they are doing, and often take less (even pensions these days) to do it.

Whether they are a teacher, firefighter, accountant, social worker, or any number of other professions in the public sector, for the most part you find people in those jobs that genuinely care about the purpose of their employment and the positive impact it has on our society.

Also, to your point about the free market adequately pricing labor, that’s a laughable construct on your part. Without worker organization (unions), the playing field is so drastically tilted in favor of the corporations that they can set the price at the lowest possible amount, knowing that there is almost always a significant worker population that has to do more for less to survive. The free market is every bit as inherently flawed as communism. Both are unsustainable without moderation (regulation in the case of the free market and private ownership in the case of communism), because both fall prey to human folly (greed in the case of pure capitalism and laziness in the case of pure communism).

The market may work setting value in work in some arenas (hard to find skillsets that represent a small portion of the overall population), but without workers collaborating, the vast majority of people would make far less than what they do now and their relative worth to society.

by badpoet on Feb 22, 2011 5:04 PM CST up reply actions  

The Wisconsin public unions

all but capitulated (mistakenly in my view). They agreed to Walker’s benefit cuts, all they wanted was to maintain their collective bargaining rights. I wouldn’t have gone as far as they did—they are by no means overpaid, and much of the “budget crisis” was caused by Walkers insane tax cuts for the wealthy the first week he was in office.

Nonetheless, it’s hard to describe this as anything but a naked attempt at union busting. I could go on, and on, and on about this. I’ll just say the protests have been peaceful, and loud, and this is not what the people of WI want.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

"they are by no means overpaid"

Six figures in annual salary and benefits goes a long way in Wisconsin, for working 189 days of the year, and having the option of retiring at 55 with a pension and health coverage that 95% of the private sector workers and taxpayers could only dream of.

They admitted it themselves, and have agreed to reductions. But you were right the first time—this is more about busting the union than anything else.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I think I saw that the average salary for teachers in Wisconsin is $51,000.

Do they get $49,000 per year in benefits? That would be some mighty fine health insurance!

by Madison Dan on Feb 22, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm not sure about Wisconsin

but here in Iowa my health care is estimated by my company to cost $15,000/employee which is not too shabby considering I have a $1400 deductible and the company pays 80% while public sector employees are covered 100%. 15*1.2 = $18,000 of benefit (not even close to $49,000 but quite significant).

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Public sector employees in Wisconsin are not covered 100%.

they contribtute, are being asked to contribute more, and have agreed to do so.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 1:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks for the info

I really don’t know enough about the situation to comment though my personal experience was not the greatest (forced to unionize in order to get a job having set compensation despite doing more work) but as for the basic concept they’re ok, in many ways, it’s very similar to a representative democracy…

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

6 figures?

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually, for every dollar spent

by an employer paying a full-time employee, only about 72 cents goes to actual wages. The other 28 cents goes to insurance, benefits, vacation, etc. (read more here).

For public employees (especially in Wisconsin) their wages are typically two-thirds of the overall cost compensation, and other third is benefits. So a teacher making $60,000 in salary might be receiving another $30,000 in benefits (rread more here).

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, OK. Still not 6 figures

and it seems to me that if we are counting public employees salaries that way, then we should count everyone’s that way to make it a fair comparison.

Besides, I believe the average teachers salary in WI is $48K.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

One reason I think that

employers shouldn’t be in the “benefits” business is that I’m sure many private and public sector employees would just as soon have that money to spend now, as they see fit, rather than be “guaranteed” some pension check in their late 90s.

It actually would have a dramatic (I believe positive) affect on employment, healthcare, and taxation. But, good luck with allllllll that . . . .

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions  

That's a point of compromise

Which totally should be on the table. The problem here is that Walker is trying to totally neuter the collective bargaining power of the public unions. Instead of working with the unions to enact tough cuts where necessary, he’s trying to cripple them permanently.

Also, there have been multiple studies showing that public service employees are often under-compensated for their jobs, relative to their private-sector counterparts. They should have the ability to bargain for their collective rights and commensurate compensation, but I agree that there need to be sacrifices made. It’s not sustainable, but this isn’t the way to fix it.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 11:55 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Very well put

He’s going for the political nut/gut shot to cripple his opposing party, not trying to address policy in a substantive way.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Dude

Union busting has been high up on the Republican agenda for many many years. They’ve pretty much succeeded is destroying private worker unions. Now they are going after the public worker unions.

by lordbaldric on Feb 22, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I think that's what I'm saying here

He’s trying to kill a group that just happens to be a huge constituency for his opposition party. I think their reasons for doing so have more to do with the nuts and bolts of funding/supporting a party apparatus than they do policy ones. This is an attempt at a kill shot.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Bingo!!??

$3.6 budget deficit is the making of this unholy alliance. When will facts prevail as opposed to conspiracy?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

The union is willing to make the budget-related concessions

and Walker won’t back down on taking away their collective bargaining rights. And Walker has exempted the police and firefighter unions, which have been more supportive of him.

This is a very, very political move on his part. If he just wanted to solve the current budget crisis, it’d be done by now.

by Madison Dan on Feb 22, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

And for further insight on his current support

Leader Of Wis. Law Enforcement Association ‘Regrets’ Endorsing Walker

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Odd that the only unions

not being asked to relinquish their collective bargaining rights are the three unions that contributed to Walker’s campaign.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Also,

at least two awesome things about this thread de-rail:

1. The intelligence and civility (so far) of presenting several sides of the issue beats just about all other websites in the world currently discussing this particular topic.
2. People arguing about who deserves to get paid what while posting on a shitty NBA team website in the middle of the workday.

Canis Hoopus, I love you!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:17 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

If your teacher was worth

his or her salary, he or she wouldn’t allow you to do this during class.

(ducks)

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha!

Actually I only have class at 1 today. I am also at a private college so I am just wasting the thousands of dollars in my student loans and not the tax payer dollars. Speaking of my professor I have to tell them sorry for how pitiful of a student I have been this semester. My favorite thing about CH is how little gets posted on the weekends because we are not at work/school.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Come on, PD

Tell the truth!

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions  

I decide,

you report.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 3:17 PM CST up reply actions  

It is actually a pretty good political move

If he says, “hey alright we will let the union collectively bargain” than when he tries to get reelected he can talk about reaching accross party lines when WIS will be a lot less red. And at least short term he got his way in the budget. If he gets his way he gets the kill shot.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

While that's true

I think you trivialize it when you seem to brush it off as a person political move when it has in fact been a core issue of the right wing agenda for decades.

by lordbaldric on Feb 22, 2011 1:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I just think that the reason...

…for them wanting to kill unions is to remove a key constituency of their opposition. I think that’s the motivating factor in the whole it em in a bathtub worldview, not actual policy or economic ideas. I don’t think it’s trivial at all. I just don’t think it’s an ideological one at its heart. It’s about blood and treasure between political parties.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

I think this is totally false

The big $$$ interests that support the party (and these days the Democrats too) have always hated unions and worker rights. They used to regularly hire thugs to beat up union activists or gun them down en mass. It took FDR and the great depression to get it legalized and the fat cats and their politician water boys have hated it since day one.

by lordbaldric on Feb 22, 2011 1:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Fine

I think we’re having a semantics argument. I’m agreeing with you. They’re busting unions so they can keep the money and so the money can’t be spent against them politically. That’s not ideological. That’s about cold hard cash….i.e. the “big $$$ interests”.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

One thing that never made sense to me is why conservatives are anti-union

from a logical perspective, it should be exactly the opposite. Unions and the ability to collectively bargain are a way to keep government OUT of the marketplace. Let labor and management (capital) privately negotiate agreements, so that government wouldn’t have to intervene. Isn’t that what conservatives believe in? Limited government interference?

The problem is that conservatives have been so good at limiting and neutering unions that the government has had to step in over the years. As a result, we have a ton of workplace laws (OSHA, ERISA, FMLA, FLSA, and others). If a high percentage of workers were unionized, these laws wouldn’t be necessary.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 1:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Again, there's no philosphy at work here

just politics. If unions voted Republican, Walker would be declaring “Wisconsin—We’re the State of the Unions!” right now.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:43 PM CST up reply actions  

well sure

It’s not that I don’t actually get it, it’s that I like pointing out that it doesn’t make sense.

Plus, it’s so shortsighted. The costs of meeting OSHA requirements are probably higher than the cost of meeting safety standards that were negotiated in a CBA.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 1:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Politics, Bedfellows.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 1:44 PM CST up reply actions  

No, I don't think that's accurate

As FDR warned during his presidency, politicians negotiating with unions is a dangerous mix.

I don’t think anyone is attempting to eliminate union representation of public sector workers. I do believe that there needs to be safeguards; however.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

He's not trying to eliminate them

He’s just trying to whittle their bargaining power down to next to nothing.

I do agree that there should be safeguards that prevent benefits and wages from getting out of control, while providing proper benefits to get the best and the brightest the compensation they deserve. That’s not what Walker’s doing.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

He is

Not only would the collective bargaining rights go, but union membership would be a lot harder under the proposal; dues could not be deducted from paychecks, and decertification votes would be required every year, Those are clear attacks on unions.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

You mean like "right to work" states?

There are, of course, two ways at looking at the same picture.

The union side favors card check that encourages arm-twisting and intimidation.

I ask you, which approach is more democratic? I suggest it is the side that allows the worker the freedom of choice instead of a closed shop approaching card check.

You certainly don’t want the voters to decide. They like freedom of choice and economic feasibility.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:49 PM CST up reply actions  

I beleive in card check, yes

and I don’t agree that it encourages intimidation. I think threatening workers, which is what Walker is doing and what often goes on in “right to work” states is much more akin to intimidation than anything that modern unions engage in.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I completely disagree

Imagine a voting system where you are left open to scrutiny. No, secret ballots with collective bargaining just as the US voting system is a must.

I disagree with your point about “right to work” states. I’ve worked in both. “Right to work” has no political intervention unless you represent a union which makes its living feeding off its members dues. Increasing union membership is the crux of intimidation.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions  

And

it still doesn’t classify as “attempting to eliminate union representation”

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't see how it doesn't

he pretty clearly is “attempting to eliminate union representation.” How else would you describe it?

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Assuming

your points about what Walker is attempting to do, haven the voters voted him into office? Isn’t be going to be held up for reelection?

Paycheck deductions isn’t “eliminating union representation”.

Annual decertification votes? What does the unions have to fear with that?

You must agree, this is not attempting to eliminate the unions" as the unions will still represent public sector workers, right?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Probably not.

Once they are unable to bargain on behalf of workers, they will go away. It IS attempting to eliminate the unions.

As for electing him to office—yep. And we all will have to pay for that mistake until we can get rid of him. Elections have consequences, and you get what you get. We had a disastrous election here in Wisconsin in November, and we are paying for it.

However, political action is not and should not be restricted to election time. People are out, getting their voices heard. They are peaceful, and they are angry. Isn’t that what we are about as a country? The thing will probably pass anyway, but we are hoping that a few more moderate republicans can be swayed. Isn’t that what we are supposed to be doing?

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Feb 22, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

"Annual decertification votes? What does the unions have to fear with that?"

Sometimes I really wonder if you’re being serious. I wonder what the annual vote would be called on Fox News and talk radio. Arm Twist Tuesday? Communist Coercion Campaign? What would be the over/under on corporate money being spent to have workers vote for decertification? Would it be in the tens or hundreds of millions?

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

And I probably could have put it better than to question your seriousness...

..just axe out that part. Clumsy saying on my behalf.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 2:28 PM CST up reply actions  

It's worth the work.

Like celery, it is so laborious that eating is a net calorie burner.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions  

me rolls his eyes seeying that picture, muttering “Americans”

;)

by Wim (Belgium) on Feb 22, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey

Do you know where this is?

http://www.sintsixtus.be/

It would be a fantastic beer to go with the burger ;)

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Only 30 mins away

http://bit.ly/hnbiIU

There’s huge lines there at the abbey for the beer. There happens to be a series that they’re doing on belgian beers where they said there’s actually an alternative that has almost the exact same tast but no waiting lines .. can’t remember the name though srr ^^

by Wim (Belgium) on Feb 22, 2011 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

If that name ever comes back to you...

…let me know.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Found the interview with the 2: http://www.een.be/programmas/tournee-generale/jean-blaute-en-ray-cokes-in-de-laatste-show

As the program is made by a Belgian and an Englishman, some parts are in english.

The beer has been mentioned below, what he says is that it is not exactly the same but very close but it’s definitly the same quality as the Westvleteren: The abt12 from St. Bernardus Brewery in Watou:

http://www.sintbernardus.be/en/beers.html#abt12

by Wim (Belgium) on Feb 23, 2011 2:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Nice

Thanks.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 23, 2011 6:31 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm happy to be drinking New Belgium Dunkelweiss

… though someone should have warned me about the 9% on an empty stomach.

On tap at town hall and it is rich and good. I like seeing the pattern the head left on the inside of the glass. Solid, solid beer (but they don’t have wolves games here!)

by midlife crisis on Feb 22, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Beer snobs

call that “pattern on the inside of the glass” “lacing.” Seems to be more common with wheat beers (like a dunkelweitzen), but any beer served in a clean glass will do it as long as the beer itself has good head retention.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 5:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Just tried Bokrijks Golden Ale

Holy buckets is that a lovely beer. Belgians rule the beer world.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 4:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Have you ever had Gulden Draak?

I’ve always been tempted to get some, but I’m never sure if I’d like the style enough to make the purchase worth it. I’m sure it’s good regardless of style, but the high cost is usually enough to push me toward a cheaper alternative.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 5:30 PM CST up reply actions  

The true Belgians are worth the money.

The American versions can be good, but they’re always a little contrived. Gulden Draak is pretty good. St. Bernardus (especially the Abt. 12) is awesome. Rochefort is intense. Duvel is a nice “session” Belgian golden.

For my money, the best I’ve had is St. Sebastiaan Grand Reserve. It’s about $9 for a pint crock, so you want to sip it, but it’s food of the gods.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 5:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Thanks

I’ve had the Abt 12, and a friend let me have a glass of Chimay Grande Reserve, but that’s about as far as my experience goes with authentic Belgians. I’ve had a couple American-made Belgian-styles, with Three Philosophers being my favorite. I definitely need to start trying more Belgians, regardless of their origin. Your suggestions sound like a good way to start.

There aren’t many options in the town I live in, but Andy’s Liquor in Rochester (the Crossroads location) has a great selection of Belgians. They have a $200, 1.56 gallon bottle of St. Bernardus Abt 12, for chrissakes. I’m surprised it’s still there.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 6:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Bit of trivia:

Ommegang, the brewery responsible for Three Philosophers, is the sister brewery of Duvel. Same company, same tradition, different continent. Theirs are the best American Belgians, IMO, and the Unibroue (French Canadian) beers are the best North American Belgians.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Feb 22, 2011 6:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Ahhhh

Totally forgot about Unibroue. I liked Terrible, though it’s not my style. I have yet to try La Fin du Monde or Trois Pistoles, but they are definitely on the list. I guess that makes my next choice of beer purchase quite a bit easier.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 6:19 PM CST up reply actions  

It's not

St. Bernardus, is it?

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 5:29 PM CST up reply actions  

as you can see above, it is ;). Nice going

by Wim (Belgium) on Feb 23, 2011 2:31 AM CST up reply actions  

Flynn and maybe a Tolliver or Pekovic for a two guard?

Depending on what the return is, it’d be a roster-balancing move.

Wait. We don’t do those.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 9:56 AM CST up reply actions  

Depends on where...

From Matt’s or The Blue Door absolutely.

"This town, this night, this crowd
Come on put them up, let me hear it loud"

by Stay classy, Joe. on Feb 22, 2011 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

my personal fav haz, and alwayz will be,

De Paul Molitor. If im at de Blue Door iss de Frenchy. If im at Matts u alreddy kno mayn dey only got wun it iz so thowed doe.

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Feb 22, 2011 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Paul Molitor is great...

But the Nookie Supreme Burger, with that sauce. Man…soooo good!

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Great post, SnP. Put in a lot of good work on this and it shows.

All joking aside, I hope AR does turn into a great player for us.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 9:47 AM CST reply actions  

Am I missing something

is there a reason Randolph isn’t in any of those possible lineups towards the end of the post? Is it because he was meant to be involved in some kind of moves for Curry or Jordan?

by Ted Harwood on Feb 22, 2011 9:49 AM CST reply actions  

Yet another delightful aspect of this trade

is that the Wolves are effectively saying “Corey Brewer is who he is, and we don’t think he can help our team improve,” but I’m sure the public line on 16-months-younger Wes Johnson is, “We think he’s a young, raw, athletic rookie who will be a valuable member of our team for years to come.”

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 9:55 AM CST reply actions  

I hear ya....

but Brewer has played 232 games to Johnson’s 55. Some of Wes’ mistakes, such as traveling before putting it on the floor, and rushing certain shots, should go away with added NBA experience. An example I like to use is Wayne Ellington. I thought his game picked up considerably after the mid-way point, last year, and he did not start the season as well as Wes has, shooting-wise.

by Andy G on Feb 22, 2011 10:07 AM CST up reply actions  

Oh, I think/hope Wes will improve

but just not past anything more than “serviceable starter,” which is a little higher than Corey Brewer.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 10:14 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd still hold out hope that he can learn to drive like Gallinari has

And get to the line. He added that to his game this, his 3rd, season.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 10:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Meaning first be a shooter, and once his shot improves

And guys are forced to close out on him, go around them for a drive.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

The few times he's done it this year

it sure looks good.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Gallinari

Is younger than Wes and was injured for the majority of his rookie season.

Not sure if I need to say more.

by TwinATL on Feb 22, 2011 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Rodrigue Beaubois

Mr. Beaubois is no longer injured—he played in the Mavericks’ last two games before the All-Star break and actually started at the 2 for one of them. With Caron Butler out for the year I doubt Dallas would have any interest in moving him.

If it wasn't for disappointments, I wouldn't have any appointments

by Jackdaw on Feb 22, 2011 10:07 AM CST reply actions  

Thanks

The below-the-fold part of this post was drafted before that and I just cut and pasted it to the bottom of the trade post.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Nuggetgeddon

From Chris Broussard’s Twitter…

Sources say Clippers dangling 1st round pick from Minny to Denver for Gallinari. Pick is Top 10 protected in 2011, unprotected in 2012.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:16 AM CST reply actions  

Bad trade for the Clippers?

Tough to tell. If they do this trade then their core nucleus is…

Griffin, Gordon, Galinari, Jordan, and Bledsoe.

Aminu off the bench.

How does that match up with OKC?

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:33 AM CST up reply actions  

But it's the Clippers...

So that’s a bad thing right?

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 10:29 AM CST up reply actions  

Well

Your response to that trade depends on whether you think if the wolves make a jump (not even to playoff team, but 35-40 wins) next season.

If you think Rubio comes over, we hit our top pick this season and the wolves get the 10-12th pick in the draft, I’d trade that for Gallo.

If you think Rubio stays, we draft another syracuse guy and we win 20 games next year, I’d hold that pick.

by TwinATL on Feb 22, 2011 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

Make it Hurt a Little More!

Not only would we lose what is surely going to be a great pick (I believe with all my heart it will be the first overall pick), but we could lose it to a division rival!

Good. Times.

They say it's always darkest just before dawn and man, was it dark last year. Come to think of it, I'm not needing my sunglasses this year, either.

by SBG on Feb 22, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

I personally would rather Denver had it.

Cool team, cool city, and they’ve just had their star bolt on them. That’s a fan base I can feel okay about.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Eh

They made out like gangbusters in this trade, I think. They shouldn’t be hurting at all after losing Melo, in my book. It’s pretty impressive how good that team still is after trading it’s two best players. They got quite a bit younger, too.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Look at their cap situation.

They also have, for two years or so at least, been in a position to endure ’Melo’s departure without entering the cap purgatory in which Cleveland resides.

The Nuggets get to sigh and move on now, with some sense of accomplishment.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 12:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I feel like karmically it will be the #1 pick too

Undoubtedly, an NBA record for most games tanked for 1 pick.

It’s in the hundreds.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Great suggestions.

Now, I’m guessing Kahn has not heard of half of the perimeter players you listed because they’re not on his Fantasy Basketball roster. SnP for Wolves GM? I would get behind that.

by qualler on Feb 22, 2011 10:32 AM CST reply actions  

Curry's Expiring as Tradebait?

Now, its very unlikely that we simply don’t cut Curry, but his big contract might be a vehicle to acquire that SG that fans dream about.

CBA rules prevent a recently traded player from being combined with another player to match salaries. However, Curry could be used to match salaries of a star player, and then a simultaneous trade occur to make up the value gap.

As an example (and this is just an example – not something I’d recommend either team do):

PHI GETS: Curry
MIN GETS: Iguodala

PHI GETS: Wes Johnson + Wayne Ellington
MIN GETS: Songalia

Like I said, I don’t endorse a trade like this, but for the next 48 hours or so, we ought to explore the possibility of trading Curry’s expiring before releasing the player.

by shrink on Feb 22, 2011 10:35 AM CST reply actions  

This is the only hope...

…for making the Jefferson trade work. They absolutely need to use this. They need to use a simultaneous trade involving 1 wing and Jonny Flynn and the salary.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:39 AM CST up reply actions  

I'd give both Kahn and Taylor

a lot of credit if they can pull this off. Moving the best defender at the wing position sure makes it SEEM like they have alternative plans to improve right now, but I’ve lost the ability to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 10:42 AM CST up reply actions  

If Kahn can follow through...

….on the tail end of the Jefferson deal for a real guard and if he fires Rambis, he deserves an enormous amount of credit. My only hope is that he is smart enough (and he is a smart person, in general) to realize that he doesn’t know enough about pro ball to actively do his job in a typical fashion and he turns into a master delegator while hiring a stats guy to offset Ronzone’s scouts eye take. Of course, I think the simple solution is to ax him and hire someone who knows what he’s doing, but that seems to be out of the question for this franchise.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 10:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

Unless we get a shooting guard, the sequence of moves simply make no sense.

By the way, I have always loved the Beasley as Manu idea…Please keep pushing it. The guy is a born chucker and watching him struggle to turn into a facilitator is just painful…

by Vlade on Feb 22, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions  

Taken a look at Manu Ginobili's assist numbers lately, or at any point in his career?

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

Sorry

I didn’t mean to compare Manu to Beasley substantively…I just meant that we could use him off the bench to get our offense going. Manu is a much better and well-rounded player.

by Vlade on Feb 22, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

My NBA Comparison

For Beas has always been the Big Dog.

by Vlade on Feb 22, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions  

SNP, and Shrink

Just FYI, the wolves do NOT need to do a “simultaneous” trade to package Curry with others, because they are still under the cap. From the Larry Coon’s CBA FAQ:

In addition, teams cannot trade players under the following circumstances:

* For two months after receiving the player in trade or claiming him off waivers, if the player’s salary is aggregated with the salaries of other players. However, the team is free to trade the player either by himself (not packaged with other players), or without combining his salary with other salaries to acquire a more expensive player, immediately. This restriction applies only to teams over the salary cap.

Since the wolves stayed about $2.6M under the cap, they can package Curry with anyone they want, as soon as the trade is official.

Not that it seems likely.

by hopps on Feb 22, 2011 11:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Nice catch

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Good info hopps

We’d only have to make sure the trade kept us under the cap.

 I agree also its not likely, but I like this kind of thoroughness. Thanks!

by shrink on Feb 22, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Glad you brought this up

It seemed really strange that people were saying we lost all benefits of the Jefferson trade.

by timmuggs on Feb 22, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, they certainly lost *much* of the benefits.

An expiring contract is not the same as cap space, for a couple of reasons. First, if a team with cap space absorbs a contract from a team that’s over the luxury tax, the team sending the contract gets out of the tax this year – that’s money to help a team that’s, e.g. prepping for a lock out; an expiring saves the team money in future years, but not this year. Second, cap space is more scarce than large expiring contracts this season, artificially inflating its value. They have gone from a position of relative bargaining power to being just another option with assets.

Now, they used that change in value to get Randolph, a young player with a track record of good production who should fit well next to Love, so it’s not like it’s for nothing. But they have used up much of the value they got in the Jefferson trade.

by hopps on Feb 22, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Wes johnson

Wes is 2/3 through his rookie year. Wes has proven he can fill a stat sheet with rebounds, blocks, steals, assists, and he can definitely shoot. There is absolutely no reason to give up on Wes Johnson this early. Stating he is a Corey brewer type player is ridiculous. Wes passes, rebounds, blocks shots, and shoots 10 times better than brewer. Not too mention is way athletic. That makes less than no sense.

by rickyrubio10 on Feb 22, 2011 10:44 AM CST via mobile up reply actions  

There really isn't much

separating the two of them.

And the only thing that Wes fills up a stat sheet with is zeroes.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Agreed

But if I had to have one of the two, I’d give up Brewers two steals for Wes’ shooting efficiency, lower usage rate, and theoretical upside.

by greyline on Feb 22, 2011 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

The fact that it's at all close is rather a damning thing for either of those draft picks.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

Timberwolves

Do you even watch the games? I’m not wasting my time responding to you and all your nonsense.

by rickyrubio10 on Feb 22, 2011 2:55 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Well, then

I won’t respond to you!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 3:05 PM CST up reply actions  

He's right..

….Wes does put up some 1s:

http://www.nba.com/games/20110214/PORMIN/gameinfo.html#nbaGIboxscore

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Nice smart ass comment!

Why don’t you practice what you preach about being respectful and corteous. Real classy! I could put up an examples of Wes filling up the stat sheet but why bother. You have your opinions I got mine but at least I’m respectful. I can’t say the same for you.

by rickyrubio10 on Feb 22, 2011 7:05 PM CST via mobile up reply actions  

Yes, we all dream of putting the team over the cap for the next half decade to acquire Andre Iguodala.

by Klobs on Feb 22, 2011 10:50 AM CST up reply actions  

Would this

Violate the rules. I mean it is obviously skirting the rule about not combining him with another player. What are the chances the league would nix this trade?

Stockpiling "winnable" games since we lost the first one

by Cedarpenguin on Feb 22, 2011 10:57 AM CST up reply actions  

Here are the rules regarding that type of trade (via Larry Coon's FAQ page)

72. What is a non-simultaneous trade?

In some cases, teams have up to one year to acquire the replacement player(s) to complete a trade. These trades are considered non-simultaneous trades. In a non-simultaneous trade, a team can only acquire up to 100% plus $100,000 of the salary it gives up (as opposed to 125% plus $100,000 in a simultaneous trade). A trade in which more than one player is traded away can only be simultaneous; non-simultaneous trades are allowed only when a single player is traded away (although teams can sometimes find ways to configure multi-player trades as multiple single-player trades which are non-simultaneous).

Here is an example of a non-simultaneous trade: a team trades away a $2 million player for a $1 million player. Sometime in the next year, they trade a draft pick (with zero trade value itself) for a $1.1 million player to complete the earlier trade. They ended up acquiring $2.1 million in salary for their $2 million player — they just didn’t do it all at once, or even necessarily with the same trading partner.

In the above example, after the initial trade of the $2 million player for the $1 million player, it was like the team had a “credit” for one year, with which they could acquire up to $1.1 million in salaries without having to send out salaries to match. This credit is often referred to as a Traded Player exception or a trade exception, but be aware that the CBA uses the name “Traded Player exception” to refer to the entire exception which allows teams to make trades above the salary cap (including simultaneous trades, non-simultaneous trades, and base year compensation).

There are some common misconceptions about non-simultaneous trades. For one, teams cannot use a Traded Player exception to sign free agents; it can be used only to acquire existing contracts from other teams. For another, teams cannot combine a Traded Player exception with other exceptions (such as the Mid-Level exception or the 125% plus $100,000 margin from another trade) in order to trade for a more expensive player. For example, a team with a $1 million Traded Player exception cannot combine it with their $2 million player to trade for a $3 million player (see question number 75 for more information on combining exceptions).

Here is a more complicated example of a legal non-simultaneous trade: a team has a $4 million Traded Player exception from an earlier trade, and a $10 million player it currently wants to trade. Another team has three players making $4 million, $5 million and $7 million, and the teams want to do a three-for-one trade with these players. This is legal — the $5 million and $7 million players together make less than the 125% plus $100,000 allowed for the $10 million player ($12,600,000), and the $4 million player exactly fits within the $4 million Traded Player exception. So the $4 million player actually completes the previous trade, leaving the two teams trading a $10 million player for a $5 million and a $7 million player. From the other team’s perspective it’s all just one big simultaneous trade: their $4 million, $5 million and $7 million players for the $10 million player.

Again, non-simultaneous trades are not available when a team trades away multiple players (aggregates). Let’s say a team has a $4 million player and a $5 million player, and uses the Traded Player exception to trade for an $8 million player. Even though they trade away more salary ($9 million) than they receive ($8 million), the fact that they aggregated the two players means they do not gain a Traded Player exception. However, it is sometimes possible to reorganize these trades so that players technically are not aggregated. A good example of this occurred in 2004 when Houston traded Steve Francis, Cuttino Mobley and Kelvin Cato to Orlando for Tracy McGrady, Juwan Howard, Tyronn Lue and Reece Gaines. As a single trade, it could only be simultaneous since multiple players were moving each way. However, Houston was able to reorganize the trade into three separate trades. In one trade, they acquired McGrady and Gaines for Mobley and Cato. In another trade, they acquired Howard and Lue using an existing Traded Player exception from their earlier Glen Rice trade. That left them trading Francis essentially by himself for nothing, which generated a new Traded Player exception in the amount of Francis’ base year value. From Orlando’s perspective, it was a single, simultaneous three-for-four trade.

Teams can consume only part of a Traded Player exception, in which case they can still use the remainder in a future trade. For example, if a team trades a $4 million player for a $2 million player, they gain a $2.1 million Traded Player exception. If they later trade a draft pick for a $1 million player, they still have $1.1 million remaining to acquire more players and complete the trade (until one year from the date of the original trade).

Also see question number 20 for more information on the availability and use of this exception.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

Just posted about this below

I think this could help us complete a trade for Bynum with the Wizards that I was trying to make into a reality last week. The Lakers aren’t high on Bynum any more it seems (and Rambis must be???) and want Hinrich. We could tkae some salary off their hands and send a bunch of young guys to the Wizards to make it so they don’t have to deal with Bynum and McGee.

Add Nick Young to the deal if we’re on that train now too. Something along the lines of:
We get Bynum, Artest or Walton (and Young?)
Lakers get Hinrich and Howard (or Webster?)
Wizards get a pupu platter of our young guys and $3M and Curry (maybe they want Pekovic to PnR with Wall and to give them a big who can bang around in the post)

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

And Rambis doesn't like Bynum

I asked about him at a “meet and greet” once. Not very nice things to say about his work ethic.

by Sterno on Feb 22, 2011 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

have to agree with Rambis

As much as I like Bynum’s God given talents and height, poor work ethic has haunted him for years now.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

So talent = turnovers in Rambis' mind

That explains soooooo much of what’s going on with the team.

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

This really makes me want to get Rambis and Kareem in a room together.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 5:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Kahn seeking to trade Curry
JerryZgoda Jerry Zgoda
#Timberwolves looking to leverage Curry’s contract by dealing it for another asset rather than waive him outright

by shrink on Feb 22, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

WOOHOO!

I’m gonna start cheering for him not to fail!

Wait…

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 3:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha

Kelly Dwyer just compared the Knicks to Ben Stiller’s character in the Adam McKay short “The H is O”. Nice reference, and totally appropriate.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 10:45 AM CST reply actions  

The guard idea is overstated and dumb overall

A real team invests 2 12+ m/y contracts or three big contracts with spare parts. In a couple years Beasley and Love could get 10+ easily each one.

Woves will have hopefully a PG with modest scoring (Rubio) a great scorer in Beasley and a good scorer in Love, with a sixth man ( Webster or Johnson) capable of 12+ ppg.

This team´s problem isn´t score 105, it´s get some stops. Specialists. Darko, Randolph, maybe a Varejao and the best impersonation of Bowen they can get. Stephon Curry? Yes, 0 fastbreaks and more easy layups for the opponent. Monta Ellis? Oh, he plays with Curry, a much improved Dorell Wright and good big men like Lee and Biedrins. But they suck….because winning basketball is about D and you can´t play D with 3 well below average starters in that department.

A vet like Igouadala could work because of the window: Rubio or Wes will command excesive money in a 4-5 years span, when Iggy´s contract is over. Mayos or Currys however, IMO aren´t a conscious investment.

by pagliatti on Feb 22, 2011 11:05 AM CST reply actions  

if u watched any uv der games since de Rockets win

u wud know dat scoring 105 is a HUGE problem. deze last three games migh be, de worst 3 straight offensive performances in team hsitory. i wuddint be surprised if dat wuz true actually.

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Feb 22, 2011 11:14 AM CST up reply actions  

A lot of that

Is Beasley being out, Flynn being terrible, and Ridnour missing more than a week. But yeah, they’ve been terrible on both ends of the court.

by bbeeck on Feb 22, 2011 11:16 AM CST up reply actions  

Right--

Luke, too.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

agree wit beasly part

Luke wuz more or less himself during doze games doe. de rest uv de teams offense inabilities are startin to show up in de worts way

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Feb 22, 2011 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

I didn't realize that, I guess.

I was just looking at the small sample size of the past few games that seemed just awful.

by bbeeck on Feb 22, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Less Beas

and more Flynn and Johnson will do that to you.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Luke Ridnour did not make the flight to Milwaukee.

More Flynn tonight.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 11:18 AM CST reply actions  

i believe Flynn isnt playin

De Kahnster toll me himself befo de Clippers game dat hes sittin de next three.

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Feb 22, 2011 11:19 AM CST up reply actions  

Lots of

Bassy! Plus! WEllington at the point!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

Mplax is

chartering a jet to MKE as we speak.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

Just arrived!

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions  

Ah yes, Wellington.

He is the starting point guard on my awesome NBA2K11 team.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

For as much of a Khanish guy as I am

it’s depressing that after drafting 4 total point guards and signing two others…we freaking need a point guard so badly

by Wolvesguy on Feb 22, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions  

I think the total is

getting close to double figures:

In the last season and a half:

Sessions
Rubio
Gaines
Flynn
Ridnour
Lawson
Telfair
Jason Hart
Nick Cassavetes or whatever his name is

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Nick Calathes

I know that one name was eating you up inside.

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Nick Cassavetes would have been

just as useful to the team. At least the promo videos would be entertaining.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Seriously.

Back in the day, before the Rubio-Flynn draft, I remember thinking the Finnish kid, Petteri Koponen, could be a nice acquisition. Then that draft night came, and obviously it seemed like there wouldn’t be room for such a player.

If Petteri Koponen was on this team’s list of players rights, he might be getting significant minutes here today.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 1:46 PM CST up reply actions  

So Bassy is playing all 48 then?

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

Khan is an excellent trader/ Beasley no to the Bench at least now/Anothny to the 5?

David Khan makes excellent trades. He gets high value on almost every trade, even a random one like Brian Cardinal for Darko, I mean Darko isn’t great, but is there any question that was a serious upgrade?

Beasley I disagree should go to the bench. I think what gets lost in the Beasley/Love/Love is the greatest thing on earth debate is that when Beasley has been injured Love has had 2 or 3 of his worst games of the season

16/13, 12/10/ 18/18 where three fairly not what we are used to (18/18 stats wise was nice, but he didn’t quite have the same impact)

Beasley makes Kevin Love better because even though Beasley isn’t the greatest player ever, he forces defenses to concentrate on him because of his scoring ability, and this partly allows Kevin Love to see wide open jumpers. But when Beasley has gone done, Love has at times had a lot more difficult time getting his own shot with Beasley out, I’m telling you, if Beasley can continue to refine his game he will be an elite scorer. He needs to make better decisions, get to the foul line, and learn to use his teammates better, but if he can make a similar jump in professionalism next year like he did this year, I think he is in line for a special season, because the ability is there

I really want Anthony Randolph to hit the weights and be a Marcus Camby like center, he has a very similar build and could be a better offensive player than Camby. Is there no chance for this?

by Wolvesguy on Feb 22, 2011 11:20 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

Only in fantasy league

Is Randolph in the same sentence with Randolph.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Or in the only sentence of your own post

;)

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 12:16 PM CST up reply actions  

That is unintentional comedy gold!

PS: Not a rip on you Flagrant. I constantly post stuff with typos and this dang software offers no edit button.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Feb 22, 2011 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

haha

Funny! I’m pleased to give you some cheer, even at my expense.

Hopefully you get the point right:

Randolph in the same sentence with Camby….

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Good point

I had been thinking Love hasn’t been himself lately and did not make the Beasley connection. That’s a great point.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

unrelated but

we need to fire Rambis asap. all de talk about last season tanking when de sad truth is, by de end when we lost 20 out uv 21 or sumthin, der wuz no incentive to tank. we were firmly trapped in de 2nd lottery spot an no amount uv winning/tanking would have chnaged dat. Whutever he wuz doin de last two months uv last season, he wuz TRYING to win, which is pretty scary.

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Feb 22, 2011 11:23 AM CST reply actions  

Indeed

Also, RUMINT has it that Kahn really leaned hard on Rambis’ supposed knowledge of the game behind the scenes in order to make up for his own lack of basketball track record/credibility and he now realizes he’s been burned by a guy who doesn’t know what he’s doing. I think it’s only a matter of time. If you are going to choose someone to ape professional positions from and that person doesn’t have good professional positions…ouch.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

Please lord.

The personnel moves are an added dimension…I would can him for his complete inability to set up a NBA defense.

by Vlade on Feb 22, 2011 11:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Or offense

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

He's great

with special teams, though.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Care for it!

Kahn has obviously improved the roster, but still has nothing to show for it. I think Rambis really hinders this team.

by Wu on Feb 22, 2011 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Know who has some bball knowledge?

Jerry Sloan.

Also:

Larry Brown (Darko (et al), facepalm)

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Sid Hartman

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

He built the original Lakers

;)

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 1:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Rambis/Kahn Rift

“and he now realizes he’s been burned by a guy who doesn’t know what he’s doing.” —-is that conjecture on your part or do you have personal knowledge that Kahn and Rambis no longer see eye to eye and Kahn feels burned.

 I don’t doubt that Kahn is building a case to axe Rambis (and i have no problem if he did) at some point if things don’t turn around, but i’ve seen zero evidence that there’s a problem between them, and i think that would be big big news if there was a problem between them.

Loisaidabasketballclub.blogspot.com
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Feb 22, 2011 12:57 PM CST up reply actions  

I was really hoping for

a Brewer for Bradley and a 2012 pick from the Celtics trade. Maybe that’s asking too much for Brewer…

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:09 PM CST reply actions  

I don't mean to be a negative nancy,

but do you see what you did there? You managed to change a thread celebrating an awesome trade that, by your own admission, had “no downside”, into a major whinefest about not getting Curry and also (strangely) you complain about Love not being more awesome sooner?

So now instead of a comments section dedicated to discussing the acquisition of Randolph for basically just Brewer and what a good deal that is, the entire comments are whining about Curry again!
We get it! You wish that we had Curry! Get over it!

Or just make a dedicated post every day to how we should have drafted Curry! But can you just let us have something? Anything? Can we just have something good and enjoy it for ten minutes please?

by wolver on Feb 22, 2011 12:11 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Yes...

…the entire comments are about Curry. Good lord.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 1:18 PM CST up reply actions  

David!

Back to the phones, NOW! There are only so many more days left before the trading deadline!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Hey go have the Angus beef sandwich

It’s delicious (I may or may not have been under some influence at that time but wow that was mmm-mmm-good).

by zebano on Feb 22, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I like Arby's...

but it’s a tad overpriced for what you’re getting.

by Andy G on Feb 22, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

de only thing i wud eat der iz de curly fries

i dont eat fast food mayn, de kill got my palate too nice fo dat shit an Minny haz amazing food

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Feb 22, 2011 6:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Stop being so negative Nancy
Or just make a dedicated post every day to how we should have drafted Curry! But can you just let us have something? Anything? Can we just have something good and enjoy it for ten minutes please?

You totally mischaracterized the entire thread Nance. I would request that you go back and read all 800 comments, most of which were a nice exercise friendly debate focused on the union protests in Wisconsin.

May be it’s time you started your own website

Let's do an internet trade! Your Treasure for our Trash!

by Son of Gerald Green on Feb 22, 2011 7:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Some thoughts:
  1. This trade makes it a lot easier to pull off a big deal. Before this went down, we had a whole bunch of ‘young assets’ and nothing to match salaries with unless we did a 4 for 1 deal (not the worst thing in the world). Having Curry makes it a lot easier to help other teams match.
  2. Going more into that, since we took money, does that mean we are buying him out or does that just mean we wanted money?
  3. How are we going to sign Rubio if we go over the cap by pulling off a ‘big trade’ and he waits until after the lockout (and then doesn’t have to sign under the rookie scale)? Do we have special rights to sign him over the cap since he was our draft pick? Or would we have to use a MLE? How much will he pull in on his first contract if it’s not rookie scale?
  4. How much were we willing to give up for this guy as short as 5 months ago? Love was on the table, yes? I was under the impression it would have been Love for Randolph and the #6?
  5. I’m excited to get this experiment rolling. I really do think he’ll be our second most productive player within weeks. Beasley being the third. Though Beasley will still be credited as the second (and first, by some).

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:36 PM CST reply actions  

"our second most productive player within weeks."

See Knick fans projections before season started versus recent thoughts.

Hint: Knicks fan hype went to fizzle as Randolph started clanking distant shots. Randolph was getting pushed off the block.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 12:41 PM CST up reply actions  

See Timberwolves roster

as compared to Knicks.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 12:55 PM CST up reply actions  

See also:

Number of times Anthony Randolph has kicked Flagrant’s puppy.

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 12:58 PM CST up reply actions  

At some point, you'd think that dog would start fighting back.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 1:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Flagrant has been engaged in a wrestling match with a straw puppy.

It doesn’t have to bite. He just gets himself tangled up in his pitched battle with the extreme hype (where, oh where is it?) surrounding Anthony Randolph.

We watch.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 1:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Glad you chldren

are being amused.

When facts don’t suffice, you got for entertainment value. Enjoy.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:33 PM CST up reply actions  

That's funny

You completely dismiss and/or ignore multiple pro-Randolph facts, and only point out that he’s been injured often.There are many more facts than “he’s been injured and isn’t playing very much.” I’ve seen very little response from you about how his past production, age, tightwad coach, or low acquisition cost weigh against his checkered injury history.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Feb 22, 2011 4:04 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Little but snark from Flagrant on the subject of this particular player.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 5:49 PM CST up reply actions  

See where

Right, so trading table scrapes represents progress?

Check Knicks roster 3 years ago versus now.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Mplax

Rosters aside, there is an opposition, right? “Second most productive player within weeks?”

Even an ardent Randolph fan should find that statement hilarious.

Given his track record in the NBA, Randolph is more likely to be injured within weeks.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Why are rosters aside?

You were arguing my direct comparison of Anthony Randolph’s talent compared to the rest of the Wolves. How are ‘rosters aside’ here?

Who does he really have to beat? Jonny? Wes? Webster?

The only competition is Love, Beasley, and maybe Ridnour. Possibly Ellington at this point.

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 3:21 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

In addition...

We got Curry in the trade, I don’t know what everyone is so upset about.

You gotta pay the troll toll, to get into this boy's soul.

twitter.com/JayAreW

by J_R_W on Feb 22, 2011 12:40 PM CST reply actions  

Love it.

Plus this Curry’s like…3 times the man.

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

John Hollinger's Grade of the Trade.

Minnesota: B+

I like Brewer, but I’d trade him for Randolph in a heartbeat. Brewer is a solid role player who plays great defense but can’t shoot or dribble. That type of player has his uses, but that’s all Brewer will ever be. Helpful, yes, but fungible too.

Randolph has a lower floor but a much higher ceiling. He can’t shoot, he weighs 11 pounds and he’s a head case. On the other hand, he has rare shot-blocking talent, handles the ball unusually well for a player of his size, and is an elite athlete. He’s a potential game-changer at the defensive end and, if the light bulb ever comes on, he’s going to provide a very potent complement to Kevin Love’s skills in the Minnesota frontcourt.

The price of that trade was just swallowing Curry’s expiring contract, but because of the difference in salary between Brewer and Randolph and the $3 million coming from New York, it’s pretty much a wash financially. Basically it amounts to a free talent upgrade for Minnesota just for loaning out their cap space to get the Nuggets under the luxury tax.

by TonyO on Feb 22, 2011 1:04 PM CST reply actions  

Great news....

Jerry Zgoda’s Twitter

#Timberwolves looking to leverage Curry’s contract by dealing it for another asset rather than waive him outright.

by bbeeck on Feb 22, 2011 1:18 PM CST reply actions   2 recs

This is encouraging.

by TheH on Feb 22, 2011 1:20 PM CST up reply actions  

YAY DAVID KAHN!!!!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:20 PM CST up reply actions  

Let's hope for

1) Ellis or Curry

2) Iggy

3) Mayo

by bbeeck on Feb 22, 2011 1:24 PM CST up reply actions  

This is kind of his make-or-break moment

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

As you said ealier he's a gambler

and sometimes you’ve gotta roll the hard 6

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 1:27 PM CST up reply actions  

While I have been pretty negative about this deal...

That’s only because I don’t imagine Kahn being able to pull anything off with Curry’s contract. I’m willing to rescind every comment I’ve made if we do actually get a serviceable starter for the Curry/Flynn pu pu platter.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Feb 22, 2011 1:35 PM CST up reply actions  

If he pulls something off

Will you write a post apologizing for ever doubting him? Or photoshopping a crown on his head or something?

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 1:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Heck no

But I’d encourage a trade vs draft detailed look at Kahn.

If he pulls something off, fires Rambis, gets a good coach, extends Love, and has a good draft in 2011 I’ll apologize, but he’s dug a pretty big hole.

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 1:31 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

It's got pretty bad

If the only way for him to earn an apology of any kind is for complete perfection until next preseason.

Waiting For Rubio, like Estragon.

by Malastare on Feb 22, 2011 2:29 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

What, you mean like if Stop-n-Pop described a modest trade as
a fantastic move by the Wolves and it should be viewed as nothing but a feather in Kahn’s cap.

? Like that?

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

He's just referring to the pimp hat

That Kahn wears on road trips. Everyone knows he adds a feather to it every time he makes a trade.

Don’t read into it.

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Seen in the MSP airport:

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 1:49 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Only in the NBA is this an asset

“Could I interest you in a fat guy who hasn’t played a game in years? In fact, he own team hates him so much they don’t even let him practice, and traded him to us the day they traded their only legitimate center. So whaddya, say? Want to make a deal?”

by Rodman99 on Feb 22, 2011 1:31 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Could someone explain how this works?

My knowledge of NBA business is scant…

You gotta pay the troll toll, to get into this boy's soul.

twitter.com/JayAreW

by J_R_W on Feb 22, 2011 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

"Could someone explain how this works?"

It usually doesn’t, especially for the Timberwolves.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:04 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

There is absolutely NO WAY to put a positive spin in this

The Twolves just became the league leader in basketball Knuckleheads. There is a reason the Warriors dumped Randolph and then he got a season full of DNPCD form the Knicks. Curry we all know his history. So throw in Beasley and his propensity to do dumb things. Its just another in a long line fo stupid moves by KAAAAAAAAHHHHNNNN!

"The world is full of idiots and I am the world" ... Sleepy Freud 12/08

by skeptic von urquell on Feb 22, 2011 1:37 PM CST reply actions  

The real "Bingo"

It’s humorous to consider the number of times on this board people got excited by “x” player only to watch said player flounder early and often. It would be interesting to see the percentage of times these giddy prognosticators were right versus wrong. It wouldn’t be pleasant for the giddy folks.

There is absolutely no data to support the projections made about Randolph. But we should let the facts get in the way, right?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Absolutely no data

Would that mean his per 36 numbers for his two years with the Warriors don’t exist?

I’m not saying he’ll be great or even good, but there is data out there that suggests AR is above average as an NBA player.

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 1:45 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Talk about selectivity

Randolph was injured much of his short GS career before they were able to pawn him off on the Knicks. The Knicks, of course, didn’t play him.

There is really no data to project him anywhere near where the hype machine is sending him.

The two years with GS, when not injured, was against bench player on the opposing team. Nellie’s style was more open court, as Tolliver said, not in a set offensive.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed and in that environment

he was averaging per 36s of over 10 boards and I believe 15-18 ppg depending on the year.

I’m not thrilled that we have him, but and will be very disappointed if this is all we end up with for the trade deadline. That said he’s a better prospect based off those “gimpy” years at Golden State than most of our young roster.

That and your absolutely no data claim is pure crap. There is data you are just choosing to ignore it or discount it. Fine, but it exists.

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Quit being so fanatically optimistic!!!

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

Read C.A.R.E.F.U.L.L.Y

I said there was no data to support the hype-laden projections for him. And, I am right.

What you read is “potential” potential for what? Sitting on the bench? Being oft-injured? Playing one-on-one in open court against bench players at GS?

Personally, the “per 36” numbers are bogus for that reason. They don’t factor for style of play, the caliber of opponents, the fact that there was no other serviceable rebounders in GS at the time.

As to the comparison with our “young roster” is that suggesting you favor the status quo or something considerably better than 13-wins.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:44 PM CST up reply actions  

Quite the acronym I don't even what to know what it stands for

You make a factually incorrect statement

“There is absolutely no data to support the projections made about Randolph”

an example of the data that exists is provided

You declare the numbers bogus and then suggest that I enjoy the status quo.

a) the status quo sucks and I don’t enjoy it
b) the data exists — you’ve made the choice to label it bogus, but your statement still was and is factually incorrect — this was all you were being called on
c) you then add in the “hype-laden” projections wording and take on a condescending tone without laying out what these projections are — while it’s nice that you give yourself an escape clause from admitting you made a factually inaccurate statement it doesn’t further the conversation.

I think you make a reasonable case against AR, but you decided to go into the realm if factual inaccuracy and are doubling down with condescending remarks rather than simply withdrawing the one statement that was in error.

The data exists — feel free to argue it’s merit, but denial of it’s existence is re-donk-u-los

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Huh?

Did I miss you factoring in for style of play? The caliber of opposing (bench) players? The absence of other rebounders for GS when Randolph was on the floor?

The reality is that 38-minute projections do not take into account important relevant considerations, and that appears to be your only data that you hold up.

As to hype-laden projections, as you envision my condescension, I’m sorry, I thought you read through the posts to see Randolph being “the second most productive player on the Wolves in a matter of weeks” and such.

There is nothing factually incorrect about what I’ve stated. You depend exhaustively on the 38-minute projection and I pointed out some very pertinent countervailing factors that completely diminishes that statistic. No offense, it’s just reality.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 3:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Randolph = Love?

Sure, and it’s 75-degrees outside today. Surf’s up!

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 3:28 PM CST up reply actions  

eyeroll......I didn't say Randolph = Love.

Just that that argument is the exact same one people used against Love. “bench players…no other rebounders….what are 36 minute projections?!? Is this the age of Charlemagne!!?!”

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 22, 2011 3:43 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I agree most of your argument

AR likely won’t be the 2nd most productive player in a matter or weeks in my opinion. I’m not giving credit to the per 36 stats. I’m just stating that the evidence you said didn’t exist does. Nothing more.

I think I’ve taken this as far as is reasonable.

My opinion is that AR will basically be a less disciplined more athletic Tolliver. Not in terms of style of play, but in use on the court. I think the Wolves will use him to rest Love or go small. My expectations are pretty low, but that’s largely irrelevant. My hope is that he rebounds well and play just enough defense that we can limit Darko more and more.

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 3:33 PM CST up reply actions  

What's most troubling

is the ongoing consolidation of talent in the league. With Melo + A’mare and the 3 ninjas in Miami, etc. it’s only going to be harder to compete for a team like the Wolves.

Winning attracts talent, and our records unfortunately speaks for itself.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 3:41 PM CST up reply actions  

More of the same

I don’t see the Wolves competing for talent. They aren’t going to become a winning team when they get also-rans off of trades.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Please enlighten us..

How are the Wolves going to become a winning team?

by Rain Dance on Feb 22, 2011 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Its bigger than that

The point I made is that the NBA is rapidly consolidating talent, where talent is currently concentrated with a half-dozen or so teams.

This is a growing problem for the Wolves and similarly situated teams because (1) the league is swiftly being stratified between the Harlem Globetrotters and the Washington Generals (we are in the Generals camp), and (2) the gulf between the two is widening.

Three years ago the Knicks were horrid. Today, with the addition of Melo, they have to be considered playoff contenders. The Miami Heat were also horrid. Needless to say, that picture has changed. And, where were the Celtics before Allen + KG?

Meanwhile, the Wolves have if anything regressed the past two seasons.

I’m not in a position to know how to transform the Wolves into a winning team. For one thing, we fans have nothing reliable other than outcomes as to what is transpiring.

But it would be instructive to consider what teams like the Knicks, Celtics, and Heat have done to transform their franchises seemingly in one summer.

Moreover, there is probably 20 or so elite players in the NBA. The rest are serviceable position players and role players. I’m not convinced that the Wolves are even involved in the discussion when it comes to making offers to elite players. Losing records didn’t stop the Celtics, Heat, or Knicks for vying for elite talent.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Ha

Yes, it would be instructive to consider what the Knicks, Celtics, and Heat have done: Play in New York, and Miami, and sink your one shot to add two HOFamers with your one HOFamer.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 22, 2011 4:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I think you're right.

I agree about the consolidation of talent and the problems that poses for teams like ours.

But one thing you’re missing is that those teams: the Celtics, Heat, and Knicks already had one elite player on thier roster when they made those moves (Pierce, Wade, and Amare). We don’t have an elite guy. And in order to make moves like that we need one as an incentive for another elite guy to come.

I think the point that Airete and Googs are making is that the best way for us to get an elite guy is to take low risk/high reward chances on guys with elite _______. AR has elite athletisism and shot blocking. He has a far greater chance to sniff that elite realm than Corey Brewer. That makes this a great trade.

If the chances of AR getting into the elite realm are just 10% higher than the guy we gave up (and I think they are much higher than that) then this is a great trade. If we hit on just one of these reclaimation projects, we will have an elite guy and we can start building from there.

I don’t expect AR to be a world-beater, but I know he has more promise to develop into a top guy than Brewer. Those absolutely are the types of moves the Wolves need to be making to become contenders. Unless, of course, you know how we can get Chris Paul for Curry’s expiring…

by Rain Dance on Feb 22, 2011 4:34 PM CST up reply actions  

A sure path

to continued languish. As for the Knicks, I was referring to pre-A’mare. They were dreadful too.

As for low risk/high reward (your perception not mine), it’s simply more of the same.

The league is full of athletes, some of which are elite athletes. Unfortunately, elite athleticism does not translate into being an elite basketball player. Look no further than Kevin Love.

The problem you seem to overlook is that players like Love will get tired of playing on a team that, as it’s best effort, relies on what you term low risk/high reward. There are far more busts to booms in such an equation.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't prescribe this as the only means to the end of a competitive squad

But I’m more than happy if my GM can pull off a trade or two like this a year. The fact of the matter is, there is no “sure path” to success in our league either. It’s mostly luck (draft, opportunities, etc). You can create a lot more chances to get lucky by making trades like this.

And the Knicks were bad before Amare, but they were in NY. That’s better than having an elite guy.

by Rain Dance on Feb 22, 2011 4:49 PM CST up reply actions  

And,

again you denounce this, one of many tacts the Wolves have taken, without providing any sort of alternative strategy. What else are they suppose to do that they haven’t done? Elite guys are not readily available.

Another thing, I did not say that AR’s elite athleticism WILL translate into elite basketball play, I said that there is a chance it could. Maybe YOU need to read “C.A.R.E.F.U.L.L.Y”

And I think you’d get laughed off the board if you asid you thought the Brew had more potential to be elite than AR. My point here is that by targeting young guys with at least 1 or 2 elite skills, you CAN find diamonds in the rough, not that you will most of the time.

I have not overlooked anything. Players like Love will get tired of playing for losers. How we get good players around him isn’t going to matter to him…Just that we get good players around him. Again, you have not really provided any helpful insight as to how the Wolves might do that.

I think one way to get good players is to trade your bad players for young guys with elite talents and let them grow. I think it’s pretty hard to argue against that point of view. We could aruge about AR’s skills, but I don’t really want to do that right now.

by Rain Dance on Feb 22, 2011 5:02 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't know

there were plenty of names traded in yesterday’s exchanges. More trades announced today.

I could care less if I get laughs or not on this board, no one’s opinion is any better or worse than mine. That being said, trading crums (Brewer) for table scraps (AR) is not the making of a quality team.

As for ideas, let’s try Rambis and Kahn since they pull the strings. They have said last season and this that they needed a closer to throw the ball to for the decisive shot. Where has that gone?

You, again, pose an impossible task. All any of us can do is look at outcomes, we aren’t privy to inside team-to-team conversations. If that’s your challenge to me, I suggest you tell me how I can find out the inside information on tradeable pieces from other teams.

But I think you already know you pose an impossible challenge for an outsider, which makes it a frivolous point.

The point is that there have been plenty of players traded since last season’s end and we have Beasley (who was basically given away to make salary cap space).

But the clock is ticking for Kahn. He has rebuild the roster twice during his first years and the expectation (playoff contention) will soon not meet reality.

As for your one way of getting good players, nothing new there, and nothing has changed in terms of win/losses either.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 6:11 PM CST up reply actions  

ok,

1) Trading crumbs for table scraps is good because crumbs < table scraps.

2) I don’t know what happened to thier desire for a “closer to throw the ball to for the decisive shot.” Maybe they think they have it in Beasley. More likely they couldn’t get one for an acceptable price.

3) It’s just as much a frivolous point in the exact same way when you say things like, “But it would be instructive to consider what teams like the Knicks, Celtics, and Heat have done to transform their franchises seemingly in one summer.” As if you know that they did not consider this. If we don’t have the inside information, don’t sit there and say they suck because they didn’t do this or that.

4) I didn’t really even ask for specific trades or moves! My example was a pretty general one that stated: “I think one way to get good players is to trade your bad players for young guys with elite talents and let them grow.” You seem not to be able to counter that with anything…

5) I tend to share your ideas about the non-transformative talent not really making enough of a difference to get upset about…But would you prefer that the FO didn’t make a clear upgrade when they have the chance even if they’re not getting a transformative guy?

6) If your realistic expectation for Kahn was that he was going to turn the bunch of clowns he inheritied into a playoff contender in 2 years, then you are an idiot. Every new GM says the same things: “we’re building for the future, we’re evaluating the pieces, we’ve got some of the pieces, our main goal is a championship, etc”… If you think we’re going backwards, you are an idiot. Kahn has made a couple of mistakes but we’re definately much better than the historically bad players we had on the roster when he got here. We haven’t kept pace with the league, but that’s more about the superteams and consolidation of stars rather than anything Kahn has done. “The poor get richer” is not a saying for good reason. We have been poor for a while and it’s hard to escape that.

by Rain Dance on Feb 22, 2011 11:53 PM CST up reply actions  

At Golden State, at 19 and 20, Randolph had

higher PERs than anyone on the Wolves this year other than Love. Some of our players go against backups, right? And we play at a fast pace, too (though in a different way).

I don’t know what “hype machine” you’re talking about. It seems to me that people just think he has some upside. I think the move is better than nothing, but I’m pretty sure he won’t be the difference between the Wolves being good and bad next year.

by Madison Dan on Feb 22, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

"The hype machine" in this case lies almost entirely in your peculiarly snarky disregard.

Basically this board, with some exceptions, has said it’s a good low-rent trade just made, and that’s about it. (Yep, that is in fact exactly how Rodney Carney was greeted too.)

Where is this hype you so decry? Nowhere. I’ve already given the guy his nickname, Anthony “Singularity” Randolph, in mild deprecation. Stop-n-Pop, who also approves of this trade, is hardly a hype believer about this team.

The true believer here is you.

Randolph’s played 2000 NBA minutes in 3 seasons. No, he was not somehow strictly playing against the other team’s bench in garbage time – this isn’t Ian Mahinmi [whom I’d also like to take a flyer on, if we were playing a different style of game, but whatever]. There’s some record there. He’s 21 now. Worth a look, at this cost.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 5:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Had to laugh

I’m not into “basically this board…” consensus. Just stating my well-founded skepticism of the usual hype machine.

Do I care whether or not you or SnP approve of this trade? No. Not unless you, PoorDick, and SnP, can provide your number of “hits” and “misses” in terms of your ""expert" prognostications.

This board would be frighteningly boring if everyone of us was suppose to agree with the supposed experts on this board.

What’s funny is the contortions you make in order to qualify this player as a good get for the Wolves. No mention of previous injuries, only his youthfulness. Isn’t that what the Wolves have more than enough of right now: youth and inexperience? Answer: Yes

Yes, it is complete hype to project (as someone here did) that within weeks that AR will be second only to Love in productivity.

In case you weren’t aware GS during AR’s tenure was woeful in terms of rebounders. And, yes, AR did start a few games due to the normal starters injury. But, for the most part, he was playing opposite the other team’s bench.

Look, I don’t care if you think it’s your purview to point your finger at me. That’s just the way you roll. But excuse me if I choose to ignore it. You’re no one special.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 6:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Are you a mean drunk right now, or something?

Nobody’s calling for conformity. Saying “This is a marginal deal but it’s the sort of flyer one takes” is hardly a “contortion.” Somehow you’ve just managed to sneer at my saying “basically this board” while also assailing “the usual hype machine.”

Seriously, guy, it’s a little embarrassing to read.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 6:34 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I'll choose to ignore

your obnoxious accusation.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

Calm down. Where is this indignation coming from?

“Table crumbs for scraps” isn’t worth it.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 6:40 PM CST up reply actions  

We giddy folks are

still waiting for a realistic alternative suggestion from you, oh Wise Seer of All Future Injuries and Underperformance.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm actually holding my breath

It’s been an hellacious struggle.

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 1:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Steady, man . . .

STEADY!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 1:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Breathe!!

you could self implode or become dead or something.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Just as I'm eagerly awating

your personal stats for “hits” and “misses”

None of us, including the sarcastic, has information about what is available versus not available.

I only see the outcomes and see our winning records and wonder how fans of a floundering team can be so enamored over a gimpy 7-foot player with no data to support the crazy projections made on this board.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

It's all we've got, man . . .

Ronald Reagan is spinning in his grave over your lack of optimism.

IT’S MORNING IN MINNESOTA!!!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

No, Ronald Reagan

is looking at your posts and saying “there you go again”

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes, I know

how troubled you are by repetitive posts.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh, my

shame on me. I should use Randolph as the subject so often.

Thank you, school teacher, can I have another?

I won’t bother to look up the number of times you mentioned Randolph. I value my time.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

"I value my time"

You forgot the sarcasm tag.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 3:38 PM CST up reply actions  

None of us sarcasters..

are telling everybody here exactly what we got, without having any legitimate knowledge of what we got.

Crazy projections on this board? You mean hopeful anticipation? Potential-based gleaning? I certainly haven’t seen these “crazy projections,” but if they do exist, its certainly not to the extent that you’re combatting them. The horse is dead. Step back, drop the 2×4.

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 2:05 PM CST up reply actions  

It's not hell

I just tell the truth and they think it’s hell. (Harry S. Truman)

We should endeavor to be realistic not make unfounded projections. Would I like to see AR become the next KG, Ralph Sampson, and basketball’s version of Godzilla?

Absolutely. But there simply is no substance to make anything other than more mediocrity.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Still waiting

for that realistic alternative.

Or are you one of those libruls that just complains about how bad things are, without offering any solutions?

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:24 PM CST up reply actions  

Eh, this is the only alternative I care about anymore

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Fake meat and fake cheese in a burrito wrap?

Sounds great!

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

The burrito is real?

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Truman

Capote? Never.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Vastly overrated, overmatched product of a corrupt political machine.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 5:59 PM CST up reply actions  

The KC Machine was something to behold

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions  

Truman. Talk about a guy in over his head.

“Jacksonian” democracy was a miserable failure too, basically spitting into the wind against urbanization as it did, but that wasn’t a corruption thing so much.

(Also: Jackson had a drunken blowout in his inaugural party, because someone had spiked the “orange drink.” No lie.)

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 6:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, I just grabbed a guy.

Jackson had his problems, but I am a big fan of beating the bank. Many of of them have a thing here or there I like, but for the whole we haven’t had as illustrious a list of presidents as our history teachers told us.

Rather long list of corrupt crooks, though.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 22, 2011 6:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Having married someone on the tribal rolls for both the Seminole and Creek nations

Jackson is not a family favorite of the n-Pop household.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions  

Should we refer to her as Mrs. n-Pop

or Mrs. Stop-n-Pop. My mom always likes the formal. Mr. and Mrs. Stop-n-Pop

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 23, 2011 1:03 AM CST up reply actions  

The Whitehouse was trashed in that party

The only way to get the people out was tell them there was free booze outside. True story!

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 6:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Orange Drink. I knew it was the Devil's elixir when they served it at Cub Scout meetings.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 6:36 PM CST up reply actions  

You're really digging in the dump if you think there's "no data to support the projections made about Randolph"

Randolph has the numbers that support every positive thing people are saying about him. It’s a head thing with him, we’re all aware. But it’s not like we’re contending with flirting with maybe being a possible fringe-playoff team right now.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 22, 2011 3:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Oh my

I’m really not a dump-diver and I have references.

And I know misconceptions are a hard thing for some to face, right?

Let’s start here with a few countervailing factors:

1. Nellie’s system versus Rambis system – open (Nellie) versus Rambis (set). As AT pointed out, AR is more the open-court, one-on-one player; whereas, Rambis system is triangle or some variation of it.

2. Potential? What do we mean by potential? Potential to come off the bench and play against opposing bench players or do we mean by potential being able to crack the starting line-up. At least one person on this board suggests that Randolph will be the "second most productive player j(just behind Love) in a matter of weeks.

3. Rebounds per 38 minutes while with GS. Okay, but who else did GS have off the bench to rebound for them at the time?

No, we surely are not a possible fringe-playoff team right now; far from it. And it’s guys like Randolph who will keep us that way (even when not injured).

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 3:16 PM CST up reply actions  

I enjoy condescending Flagrant more than martyr Flagrant.

Anyway.

1. Who cares? Randolph isn’t here for offense. That’d be a plus.
2. Did I say anything about potential? You could argue he’s comparable to Love, in that when given the minutes, he’s produced. And you can’t argue he hasn’t produced when given minutes. #FreeAnthonyRandolph
3. That’s the sort-of argument someone ripping on Love would make. Have fun with that.

We’re not anywhere near the playoffs, and it’s taking shots on guys like Beasley and Randolph – and much improved drafting and Rubio being legit – that could get us closer.

I honestly can’t understand what you have against giving up a player who wasn’t going to be here past this season for a 6’11’’ pogo stick who can handle the ball and can rebound and block shots at an elite level. It’s a chance, yeah, but we can afford to take it – and, really, can’t afford to not take it.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Feb 22, 2011 3:23 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm sorry

if I’m coming across condescending. I don’t mean to be.

Look, I believe Randolph is a waste; you don’t. You are free to express your aspirations for him just as I express my seeing more of the same in him that we have had for years. Perhaps you’re right, let’s hope so, but I don’t see it.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 3:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I also believe he maybe a waste

but a fairly small one with some chance for a decent payout.

It’s the failure to do anything additional before the deadline ends that will be the real problem

by Airete on Feb 22, 2011 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

Can't believe

that with all the names floating right now that Randolph is our best effort. Maybe something significant will happen, but I don’t think so.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 6:49 PM CST up reply actions  

The league leader in basketball knuckleheads?

Have you seen Sacramento’s roster?

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 1:47 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Let's all come together on Top 5

We don’t have the knowns or unkown knowns to know the exact knuckleheadicality of NBA players much less boneheadicality.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Feb 22, 2011 2:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Drunken driving. Hosni Mubarak. Nick Collison.

High Times magazine. White guys who use the word “nizzle”. That new Jennifer Aniston-Adam Sandler movie. Glenn Beck. Brett Favre texts. Arby’s Beef-n-Chedder sandwiches. “Four times the steak”. LaMarcus Aldridge in the 2011 All-Star Game. Avril Lavigne. Kanye West’s orange pants.

Is that enough for now?

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

TimAllen

for PRESIDENT!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:12 PM CST up reply actions  

For that enthusiastic support, I'm going to nominate you for

Secretary of the Interior.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

More like

Secretary of the Inferior, amirite, people?

Hifive?

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:25 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Only if Allen

eliminates all unions.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Feb 22, 2011 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

Given the direction of this post

I’m disappointed “four times the steak” made the list.

Actually Nick Collison too, as a person anyway.

But mostly “four times the steak.” That’s like a whole honkin’ cow.

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

During the 80th viewing of that commercial during

All-Star Weekend, I noticed that the lady sitting next to the guy with the tiny meat had a full bowl of pasta. Apparently, she’s the smart one in that relationship.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, if he's got "tiny meat"

he better have a hell of a bank account!

Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-lagunga.

by SoDakHmr on Feb 22, 2011 6:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Funny how your headline is completely obviously wrong, and your posting history if chock full of little exploits of this kind.

How much to cross this bridge?

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Hornets..

Are shopping Thornton.

"This town, this night, this crowd
Come on put them up, let me hear it loud"

by Stay classy, Joe. on Feb 22, 2011 2:29 PM CST reply actions  

To the trade machine!

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 2:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Totally.

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 2:33 PM CST up reply actions  

Aaaand I have no idea what they want...

What do they want?

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Jucy Lucys

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 2:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Mmmm

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

I hear

Jonny Flynn might fetch one of those!

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 3:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Well that's flip that burger!

Pun intended, and mostly regretted.

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

that's = let's

word error also regretted

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 3:48 PM CST up reply actions  

eye <3 bad puns

Whenever I'm about to do something, I think "would an idiot do that?" and if they would, I do not do that thing.

by Mplax on Feb 22, 2011 4:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Hanny? Is that you?

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 23, 2011 8:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Do you mean "fetch"

as in “retrieve”?

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

They want a first-rounder

We got those!

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 2:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Welcome back, SnP!

That article was the bomb! I feel like you just wrote the analysis that Taylor has been paying real money for. The key to this team is Kevin Love, not Rubio. Trade for guys that fit well next to KLove. I sure hope Kahn follows your blueprint for the next trade. No, Curry is long gone, but this team really needs an efficient, high-scoring guard. My next priority after that is a new coach.

by Dave T on Feb 22, 2011 2:56 PM CST reply actions  

Thanks

And where can we get some of this “real money” that Taylor is handing out?

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Question:

AR has a reputation as a “head case”. Why, then, is he so widely accepted on this team by the majority of members of Canis Hoopus?

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Feb 22, 2011 3:16 PM CST reply actions  

Being a "head case" and being an "ass hole" are two different things.

Cousins is an ass-hole. He seems not to respect authority, slaps teammates, etc. Guys like this cause trouble and bring the team down.

AR is a headcase, much like Beasley. They are just weird dudes who really don’t do the team as a whole too much harm.

by Rain Dance on Feb 22, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

pc phrasing

… says a-hole or donkey. “Ass” makes my three kids in elementary school ears bleed.

by midlife crisis on Feb 22, 2011 4:43 PM CST up reply actions  

He's not a headcase in the mold of say, DeMarcus Cousins

He isn’t an off-the-court problems risk as much of an on-the-court “headcase”. Similar to Beasley, I would guess, in that his in-game decision-making and overall grasp of the game is questioned, but he isn’t going to be in legal trouble, one wouldn’t think.

by bbeeck on Feb 22, 2011 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

So it goes...?

Wesley Johnson…………………………………………….

Michael Beasley…………
Anthony Randolf…..

Ron Artest…………………

DeMarcus Cousins.
?

by Boss10 on Feb 22, 2011 4:55 PM CST up reply actions  

It's a lot easier to accept a head case when you have to.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 3:25 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah

I asked this a day late.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Feb 22, 2011 4:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I actually..

….took out the obligatory reference to DMC in the original post. I figured it would have been too big of a side show. They’ve now taken on 2 additional players that have had headache issues since passing on DMC (and 3 overall if you add Darko). It’s curious. I honestly think they didn’t have DMC rated above Wes as a player, FWIW. I think they also thought Darko was the long term answer at center.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Agreed on the DMC/Wes assessment

The character issues stuff always seemed like a convenient excuse to me. I got the impression they rated Wes Johnson higher, and claiming they were concerned about Cousins’ character issues was a good way to deflect potential criticism if Cousins turned out to be better.

by WolvesFan03 on Feb 22, 2011 4:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Did Kahn ever use the behavior stuff as an excuse?

I know people on this board mentioned in a lot, but did Kahn ever bring it up as a reason not to draft Cousins? I thought he said it was all about fit.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Actually,

This might be a good catch. I thought I remembered Kahn invoking character at some point around draft time to justify his selection of Johnson over Cousins (I know many other Johnson-backers did here). But this strib article (http://www.startribune.com/sports/wolves/97126314.html?page=2&c=y) suggests otherwise:

“I know some people say, ‘Why not Cousins?’” Kahn said. "To me, it was very simple and it was basketball- related. We spent most of this past season talking about the lack of length and athleticism and speed on our front line, and I didn’t feel he would improve those areas. I expect him to be a very fine player in our league.

Kind of funny that he invokes length and athleticism, again. So I guess he copped to picking Johnson for basketball reasons—that seems even worse, especially for selecting the right players going forward.

by WolvesFan03 on Feb 22, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

length!!!

AHHHHHHHHH!!!

I’ve never heard a term that I used to accept become so reviled in my mind. Bringing up length in a casual conversation has so many negative connotations that you may as well have brought up pro-life/pro-choice over the cheese plate.

by midlife crisis on Feb 22, 2011 4:48 PM CST up reply actions  

"our league"

AHHHHHHHH!

Only three more shopping days until the Trading Deadline!

by PoorDick on Feb 22, 2011 5:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Possession is 9/10ths of the law

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 5:19 PM CST up reply actions  

And anywhere from 30 days to 10 years...

depending on what you’re “possessing” at the time!

Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-lagunga.

by SoDakHmr on Feb 22, 2011 6:19 PM CST up reply actions  

He should have just told the truth, big guys with weight problems are not long for the NBA.

by Klobs on Feb 22, 2011 5:20 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm positive they had Wes rated higher

Or at least Kahn and Ronzone did. DK had him pegged I think as both the second best athlete and second best shooter in the draft (behind John Wall and Luke Babbitt, respectively) and Ronzone was all about his smoothness and work ethic. Work ethic is huge to Tony. He draws some pretty stark contrasts between what LeBron and Wade do in practice versus what Bosh and Melo do

Rambis I think had DMC rated higher, but didn’t want the headache of coaching him. Ironic, definitely. But that was his assessment at the time

by Oceanary on Feb 22, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Somewhat disengenuous

The two players they got cost a fraction of what the 4th pick in the draft should net…. but then, they netted pretty close to zero with that pick

by midlife crisis on Feb 22, 2011 4:45 PM CST up reply actions  

Very easy answer to this one.

Because it’ll be his third team and it cost us Corey Brewer to get him.

by Andy G on Feb 22, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Cap Question

Could Curry still be used as cap space in ones of these ways?
1-keep him and trade his whole contract to a team that wants a large expiring
2-trade him along with the 3 million so another team can buy him out for immediate savings
3-buy him out now so we would be the amount of his contract under the cap again

One and two seem legal and if the third one is legal aren’t we in basically the same position financially as we were before the trade.

by Gophers12 on Feb 22, 2011 3:23 PM CST reply actions  

Yes to 1 and 2.

No to 3. If we buy him out, he still costs against our cap.

by Simitar on Feb 22, 2011 3:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Not exactly brand new news,

but more confimation that the Bobcats continue to shop both Jackson and Wallace:

Vincent Goodwill, Pistons beat writer:

Gerald Wallace and Stephen Jackson being shopped, Wallace more likely to be moved #NBA about 16 minutes ago

by bbeeck on Feb 22, 2011 3:35 PM CST reply actions  

Portland is chasing Wallace big time

GForce and Devin Harris appear to be the two guys they’re after

by Oceanary on Feb 22, 2011 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

If Harris could stay healthy...

…I’d bump him way up my players-to-get list. He’s really, really good when healthy.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Very true

He was a nice player at the end of his Dallas run, and he was making that Jason Kidd trade look awful when he started playing at NJ. I don’t ever see him being consistently healthy though, he just seems like one of those guys.

by Dumbhead62 on Feb 22, 2011 4:20 PM CST up reply actions  

He's a legit scoring force, that's for sure

I’m still unconvinced of his playmaking ability. But on this team, that wouldn’t particularly matter

Portland, however, I think needs a pass-first PG, not shoot first one. Andre Miller gets that team to work because he gives shots to Wes Matthews and LMA. I think they should stick to their original plan and go after Ramon Sessions

by Oceanary on Feb 22, 2011 4:22 PM CST up reply actions  

In the slow down offense...

….that McMillen has I think a) this signals the official end of Brandon Roy and b) guards like Harris can be the shiznit as all he will be asked to do is penetrate, feed it to LMA, or kick it to the 3 point shooters. Sessions would be good too. They need someone to collapse the defense and who knows how to get the ball to LMA.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 22, 2011 4:25 PM CST up reply actions  

I almost wonder if McMillan's time with that team is about to end as well

The guy’s a great motivator and disciplinarian, but he only knows how to coach one style. Breaking out into a Princeton or open-court system is really uncomfortable for him. They nearly traded Andre Miller last year because of that. Roy was his perfect franchise guy because he was an iso-player who would use 20+ seconds of the shot clock every possession. Miller won’t do that, and Aldridge doesn’t want to.

I get the feeling that, with KP gone and Roy all but gone now, McMillan is headed for a clash of styles battle with his best two players and new GM

by Oceanary on Feb 22, 2011 4:30 PM CST up reply actions  

Marcus Thornton

According to ESPN, he’s being shopped and the Nets are looking at him. I think he’d be a great fit in Minny.

Kahn has to drink what Billy King is drinking and get active.

by Vlade on Feb 22, 2011 4:21 PM CST reply actions  

Same

Bitch and whine fest from Stop-n-Pop but hey I am happy. Kahn got a player that I wanted since the summer. Now I hope Kahn has the balls to make another trade and forget about the PR hit the team would received.

by chuckd@79 on Feb 22, 2011 4:32 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

missed you

But apparently won’t get to hear your consistently contrarian viewpoint

Good luck in school

by midlife crisis on Feb 22, 2011 4:52 PM CST up reply actions  

Where have you been?

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 4:38 PM CST up reply actions  

And where will he go?

Canis Hoopus may never know…

I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.

by Bahlgren1 on Feb 22, 2011 4:44 PM CST up reply actions  

So you'll deal Love now that Anthony Randolph is under wraps. Wow.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Feb 22, 2011 6:04 PM CST up reply actions  

FWIW I'm really hoping for an OJ Mayo trade now

I think it’s a long shot, especially with Rudy Gay out a month. But I also think it’s the best that can be realistically hoped for between what this team needs and what Kahn is capable of handling in terms of swinging trades

by Oceanary on Feb 22, 2011 4:32 PM CST reply actions  

Agreed

I wonder what they would want. I would have expected a package including Brewer would have been attractive to them, since they’re trying to make the playoffs and need to put Gay’s minutes somewhere.

I’m sure Wes would be attractive to them, but there are drawbacks with flipping him already, obviously.

by bbeeck on Feb 22, 2011 4:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I have no idea

Two weeks ago, I would have said Brewer and Telfair would have been enough, but now that they’re missing Gay’s 20ppg, I’m sure they’re much more hesitant to move him

by Oceanary on Feb 22, 2011 4:41 PM CST up reply actions  

He's still undersized.

but if Rubio could guard SGs (I’m doubtful), he would be perfect as the SG guarding PGs

by midlife crisis on Feb 22, 2011 4:53 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think that matters at this point

Monta Ellis would be the same way. This team just needs to get good players right now.

Think of it in the same vein as the Thunder and Jeff Green. He’s undersized and they know they can’t sustain long term with him at power forward. But for the purposes of getting to where they are now, he’s fine. He’s productive, and that’s what they needed

by Oceanary on Feb 22, 2011 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Curry's expiring might not look so bad to MEM

The micro-market already paid Gay, needs to pay Marc Gasol, and has suggested they may pay Zach Randolph too. Thabeet seems like a negative, and OJ Mayo seems like a tough player for MEM to spend lots of money on, locking up his uncertainty next year.

One of the NBA’s biggest expirings to one of the NBA’s smallest markets seems like the start of an idea.

What would MIN need to add to Curry’s expiring for Thabeet and Mayo?

by shrink on Feb 22, 2011 5:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Picks?

That’s really all we got, right? Give them their 1st rounder back?

by Grover M on Feb 22, 2011 5:05 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd start with Ellington

What the Grizzlies want more than anything are players who can contribute immediately. They’re thinking playoffs

Telfair is probably another attractive piece. They only have one real point guard on the roster. And if you can convince them Pekovic doesn’t foul as much as he actually does, he or Koufos might take as well.

I think if we were to put together something like Ellington, Curry’s contract, and Telfair, we’ll at least get their attention. That’s two guys who can contribute to a playoff push and two guys with expiring deals, plus we’re saving them an additional $9mil by taking Mayo and Thabeet off their books for next season

The two questions there are how much do they value Mayo in light of Gay’s absence, and how much more potential do we believe Mayo has over Ellington?

by Oceanary on Feb 22, 2011 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

The Raptors got James Johnson for a 2nd round pick

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Feb 22, 2011 5:10 PM CST reply actions  

Saw that.

Awesome for the Raps and the Bulls freed themselves up a roster spot for something.

by Grover M on Feb 22, 2011 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

3 year plan Kahn!

Timberwolves should be 10-11 Roster!

This is what a 3 year plan looks like… and only in the 2nd year. Notice 4 of 5 starters from last two drafts!!

Starters/ Bench

PG Curry/ Collison

SG Mathews/ Budinger

SF DeRozan/ Gomes

PF Love/ Blair

C Cousins/ Blair

Bench Pekovic, Whiteside, A.J. Price, Willie Warren

How did I get here Honestly……

David Kahn, The fact that you mentioned the 2009 Draft wasn’t that deep scared me. Second rounders and undrafted players like Mathews, Blair and maybe Budinger would be starting for you now. Though Mathews slipped by everyone which blows my mind doesn’t bother me that much.

2009 Draft 1st Round

5) Curry
6) DeRozan
18) D. Collison
28) Budinger

2 Round: Mathews and A.J. Price

09-10 Roster

PG Curry, D. Collison and A.J. Price

SG/SF DeRozan, Mathews, Brewer, Gomes and Budinger

PF/C Jefferson, Love, Blair and another Big

Trade Jefferson and Brewer ASAP… Jefferson triangle doesn’t work and can’t defend, Brewer can’t shoot

2010 Draft 1st Round…

4) D. Cousins all the way!!! Going to be best big in the game!!!!
16) H. Whiteside

2 Round W. Warren

Also sign Pekovic

Call me Please T-Wolves…. Jacob you know me, give this to Kuhn!!!!!

Johnny

by johnny cc on Feb 22, 2011 7:26 PM CST reply actions  

Here is my issue with your take

How good is the team you just listed?

I agree it’s better, but is that the kind of team that is in the playoffs in 2-3 years? With any guarantee you can’t say yes. You can say maybe, because that’s what I will say too. Maybe, but I can’t see this team being better than what Memphis has assembled talent wise, and they aren’t even in the playoffs.

by Wolvesguy on Feb 22, 2011 10:15 PM CST up reply actions  

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