A Brief Moment In Time (Everything You Need To Know In A Very Small Sample)
by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 5, 2011 7:37 AM CST
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PrintThe place: Air Canada Center
The time: 4th quarter of the Wolves/Raptors thrill-a-thon, 41:51 game time.
The deed:
At 37:49, with a lineup of Sebastian Telfair, Corey Brewer, Martell Webster, Anthony Tolliver, and Kevin Love, the Wolves start a 10-2 run that brings them within 2 points (90-92) of the hated Raptors. This is nearly the best available lineup (Wes Johnson replacing Webster at the 3 would have made it the best available option) the Wolves have to offer on a night without Luke Ridnour and, at that point in the game, Michael Beasley. This combination (and a few others like it) have been obvious to anyone with a computer and 5 minutes of free time for the past month or so.
At 41:51 coach Kurt Rambis substitutes Jonny Flynn for Sebastian Telfair and Darko Milicic for Antony Tolliver. The Raptors sub DeMar DeRozan and Sonny Weems in for Julian Wright and Trey Johnson. The Raptors immediately embark on a 6-0 run, later adding a 8-1 run to the mix.
The moral of the story:
I can't figure out who this substitution says more about: the guy who made the substitutions or the guy who tried to build a team around Darko Milicic and Jonny Flynn. I think there's a moral here but I can't quite figure out what it is.
Some guesses:
- Writing incriminating letters to your fan base explaining the importance of bright smiles and the need to hand a guy with a proven track record a role in the offense that is above and beyond his ability to deliver upon is probably not an effective leadership strategy.
- Osmosis is not a practical way to learn how to coach. Phil Jackson actually paid his dues in the CBA and much like you can't draft players simply on the basis of how they physically look, you cannot choose a coach according to the optics of his physical proximity to greatness.
- There isn't a lot of talent on this team and eventually the 3 or 4 somewhat competent players not named Kevin Love will get tired.
- Darko Milicic and Jonny Flynn are bad at professional basketball, with Flynn being especially (and comically) so.
- Regression to the mean happens and is somewhat predictable for anyone with a computer and 5 minutes of free time.
- It is perfectly OK to hand out reasonable contracts to role-playing big men who play 20-30 mpg. It is not OK to hand out relatively massive usage rates to role-playing big men who play 20-30 mpg while expecting them to be something of an offensive lynch pin. The difference between these two opinions is an important one and readily discernible for anyone with a computer and 5 minutes of free time.
- Donnie Walsh does not like to share tricks of the trade.
- Phil Jackson does not like to share tricks of the trade.
- Freely-available draft raters are available to anyone with a computer and 5 minutes of free time.
- Hastily prepared community draft boards are available to anyone with a computer and 5 minutes of free time.
- Learning that things like smiles, length, and athleticism aren't the be-all/end-all of player selection takes a computer and 5 minutes of free time.
- Knowing that making 3 out of 10 shots from beyond the arc is worth the same amount as making 4.5 out of 10 shots from inside of it doesn't even require a computer or 5 minutes of free time.
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Unironically...
The most inefficient front office in basketball assembled the most inefficient team/scheme in basketball.
I wasn't swayed
Actually a little below the mean ...
For this season Darko’s Ortg & TOV% are slightly worse than career avg.
Also, how does Kahn explain this...
Sources say Atlanta, Orlando, Portland and, yes, his old friends from Dallas are among the playoff-bound teams that have repeatedly told Phoenix that they’re ready to discuss Nash scenarios as soon as the Suns are. Toronto and Minnesota, sources say, are two lottery-bound teams that rank as frequent callers, although Nash would figure to have a fair measure of say on where he goes in any potential deal because (A) he’s only got one year left on his contract after this season and could refuse to sign an extension if he doesn’t like the landing spot, and (B) it’s widely assumed that Phoenix won’t just trade Nash anywhere after so many years of good service and the mere fact he came back to the Suns after they initially dealt him to the Mavs on draft day in 1998.
(The Wolves, in other words, can’t afford to build an offer for Nash around the rights to Ricky Rubio without assurances that Nash wouldn’t just bolt in free agency after playing out the final season of his current two-year, $22 million pact.)
I’m not saying I’d be against the trade, but I thought we were built a whole f@#king team around a point guard who was “improving” in Europe?
I wasn't swayed
Phoenix has a former player agent as their GM
maybe the Wolves can get Nash for Jonny Flynn!
At this point, why the hell not. The team already plays no defense. The addition of Nash adds about 10 wins. Less suck is good. It’s like Pele coming to play in the US.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
Not sure that Rubio is being offered in that deal
It would seem to me that Kahn would look at this deal as a way of bringing in veteran leadership, as well as a mentor for Rubio. Nash has about 3 really good years left, then age is just going to take over. That means next year, Nash is the guy showing Rubio what to do, then the next couple years Rubio starts to take on more time. This also gets the Wolves into the running mode that Kahn has talked about since his arrival.
I’d do the deal in a heartbeat for anybody (and draft choices) not named Love, Rubio, or Beasley. Nash, Beasley, and Love is the core to a 50 win team next season.
We're not trading Steve unless he asks for it.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
And go Shawn Watson and Barney Cotton! Seriously, leave Lincoln. Now.
Super Bowl here we come!
This perfectly captured my current zeitgeist
It is incredibly easy to be smart about the NBA today. It takes serious effort to be as dumb about basketball as our current front office and coaching staff.
Every passing day it becomes more obvious that we have to reshuffle the deck again, with the players, coaches and GM. The scary part is that Taylor has spent too much PR capital with this team and appears content to give these guys enough rope to finally choke out any remaining Wolves interest I have left, save the kind of morbid curiosity one feels when passing a bloody car wreck.
by Waff on Feb 5, 2011 7:54 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I think the most offending part about it...
…is that they’ve tried to get cute with everything they’ve done since Kahn started. The best analogy I can think of is that they’re like a bad investment bank filled with the smartest guys in the room who think they’re going to get results and profits out of things and approaches that don’t work anywhere else. They’re like guys who got hired away from excellent firms who go to their new place and insist that things be done their way because they once worked with people who were able to do what they did because they had more resources and actually put in the work.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 5, 2011 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agree, Kahn was trading guys on last year of deal
and saying how he was preparing the cap for the next summer. Do you know who coined the phrase “Stop & Pop”?
He's made stuff up the whole way
It’s really kind of crazy that he thought no one would actually pay attention, especially internally.
As for SNP, I know it became used here locally for Brandon because Barrerio used it, but I picked it for a basketball drill I used to love doing. We used to do 1, 2, and 3 dribble stop and pops along with dribbling in between cones waiting for the coach to yell “stop and pop”. The last person to shoot had to sit down. Kind of a musical chairs. I use a lot of stop and pop drills when I coach the kiddies. I don’t do the musical chair version. I like as few dribbles as possible and I tell the kids they have 3 dribbles to attack the basket, pass, or shoot—preferably a 3 or a layup.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
Going in the way back machine (I'm old)
Johnny Most was the voice for the Celtics 50’s thru Bird years, Sam Jones had the classic 1,2 dribble pull up and Most called it the stop n pop. Sam is HOF’er, with 2 hands covered in rings, so your name is classic and timeless.
Awesome
I went to a school that sucked at basketball and being slightly upwards of 6 feet meant that I was a power forward. This sucked in high school but when I joined the military and was actually able to play in leagues as a guard, it meant that I never was a good enough ball handler to break people down with crazy 1-on-1 moves, but I did have a wicked 1-3 dribble quick jumper and a nice little baby hook that I could use on opposing guards. Stop-n-Pop is catchier than Baby Jump Hook.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
Sounds like you were the Michael Beasley...
Of the military…
"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"
Yup, I'd say it was Johnny Most
or at least he was always saying it. Those were strange years in Boston, with the Celtics at the bottom of the sports totem pole in Beantown.
well said
I am often wrong, but never in doubt.
by wallywagon11 on Feb 5, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
'they’re like a bad investment bank . . . '
Maybe Taylor can hire Bernanke and Geithner to be the next GM and coach after they have succeeded in destroying the economy. Green shoots everywhere, all the time for the T-wolves!
someone
speaking nonsense. The US never had a real economy anyway. When was the last time you went into wallmart and found 10 things that were mad in the USA. I am not that old when wallmart had most of there products made in the usa Bernanke and Geithner had nothing to do with this
Walmart was founded in 1962, and always carried cheap imports.
There was never a period when their products were from the US. You’re assuming that your narrow experience can be projected well out past its limits.
And the word “never” is, to use your word, total “nonsense.” You don’t think the United States manufactured anything, ever?
"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco
well, I get the feeling what he is referring to was WalMart's "Made in America" campaign
Although not sure if “most of there products” were made in the USA but Walmart technically would purchase American products if American suppliers could get within 5% of the foreign suppliers (although that will obviously lead to fraud cases were some foreign companies which is what happened with Kathly Lee Gifford’s clothing line). Not sure if the majority of stuff was from the USA but that was the image it culativated.
I am often wrong, but never in doubt.
wow them some dumb spelling errors
good luck reading that big chunk of poop
I am often wrong, but never in doubt.
How much rope does Rambis get???
His rotations are maddening!!! How long is it going to take for him to learn how to coach in game time situations? He continues to draw up plays during time outs with little creativity. I know a lot is on the players side also but it starts at the coach.
I think the short answer...
Is that Kahn and Rambis have at least to the end of the season. There’s no way Taylor cans these guys and changes the guard before the new CBA is established.
I don't know if that's totally true...
If we go on a 10 game losing streak, and the mood in the locker room sours, then Kahn might try to fire Rambis. Kahn will be in full self-preservation mode (if he’s not already), and his last opportunity to save his job might be re-shuffling the coaches with an aim towards a temporary improvement.
At that point Kahn could try and blame Rambis on the lackluster record, and potentially keep his job for one more year.
Not likely, but not out of the question.
I wasn't swayed
I don't think it's possible at this point..
….for Kahn to outlast Rambis. They’re either connected at the hip or Kahn will be cheaper to fire.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
And it might not even be
an outright canning for Kahn, but instead, what I think is occurring now:
Taylor: “David, we’re bringing in (random front office/scouting guy) so that you have more time to focus on your primary responsiblities.”
Kahn: “Ohhhh kayyy . . . what are my primary responsibilities, again?”
Taylor: “Not overpaying players, and not saying stupid sh*t.”
Kevin Love is not the problem.
by PoorDick on Feb 5, 2011 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think he's going to be "voluntold" to do lots of things for the remainder of his time in Minny
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
He can move to Chicago and be in charge of our scouting.
"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco
Not so sure
GMs are usually given two hires before they are on the hot seat. The recent comments by Taylor about the coaching staff also make me think he is more concerned about the coaching than the GM.
Also, don’t forget….no matter how Kahn is viewed, he has saved Taylor massive money since taking over. Something I’m sure the owner(s) appreciate.
But don't also forget
that the view of Kahn has made the Twolves somewhat of a punching line, even more so then before with McHale. There’s a point where pride kicks in because at the end of the day, even if Taylor cared more about saving money, he can hire someone else to do it for him.
I am often wrong, but never in doubt.
I honestly have to wonder if...
Kahn would have the authority to fire Rambis at this point. It has less to do with whether Rambis “deserves” to be fired and more to do with the credibility (or lackthereof) Kahn would have moving forward.
Frankly, it’s a mess. I don’t think Kahn could fire Rambis because, as has been stated, they’re pretty much tied a the hip and I don’t think Kahn has earned the right to select another coach. Plus, I don’t think Kahn could be fired but Rambis retained. Whoever succeeds Kahn isn’t going to want that scenario. Completely FUBAR.
SnP, Your logic doesn't even make sense
One could argue it was a poor substitution if Toronto maintained the same line-up and then things changed. But no, they substituted too. So 2 out of the 5 variables on Toronto’s side changed. Is this really that hard to follow?
Coaches putting their best players on the court?
You’re over thinking this. Good coaches make sure they take advantage of bad matchups and get their best players on the court as much as possible. Toronto put in its best wing players when they faced a bad run. Rambis’ response was to make his lineup worse. There are some obvious cooking v. shopping issues here, but don’t think of this as a problem where the variables have to add up on both sides of the equation. It’s an example of bad coaching philosophy and understanding of the talent on the team.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
BTW:
This move was made by a coach who has given us example after example of sticking with his bench for too long. The one time he doesn’t do it is the one time he should have.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
exactly
this is the same guy who played the same lineup throughout the fourth quarter and overtime last year in Houston.
Maybe this substitution in Toronto is an example of him learning.
Rambis:
I read on the CH board last night that I should not believe in the hot hand. What was the name of the poster again? Allur-something or other. So, this lineup just went on a run, implying that they are hot. I need to take them out for the guys I believe are just better ball players. So I ‘ll put Jonny and Darko in. I’m getting so smart.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
I think you're overthinking it
We made a run, they made a run.
Welcome to basketball.
well then
The point, I believe, is that the Wolves substituted towards a WORSE lineup. Yes, the concurrent Toronto the lineup change renders it impossible to attribute a causal effect of the Wolves lineup change on the subsequent Toronto run. But, mounds of existing evidence suggest that Rambis went from his best unit to a bad unit.
Take a similar example. If I piss on my roof and at the same time I pour gas on the roof and light a match, how can I be sure what caused the fire?
Years of empirical observation suggest that it was the gas and the match, not my piss. But, since the both occurred at the same time, we can never be sure.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
This is where the iPad comes in
it should really allow Kahn to expand his knowledge
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on Feb 5, 2011 8:56 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
With the .99
Coaching Hoops for Dummies app installed, of course
"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)
by uncle rico on Feb 5, 2011 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
of course
that USUALLY goes without saying.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on Feb 5, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
My issue with Rambis is, he doesn’t run much of an offense. Since these guys are so young, they should learn how to play team basketball. When I watch them, they’re just standing there and occasionally Flynn cuts down the lane and throws the ball out of bounds. On a one on one basis, most of the players are not that good, but when they play as a team they’re A LOT better.
It really is funny...
….how Flynn just occasionally decides to do something that you’d see in a 7th grade AAU game. I look forward to his nightly jump-in-the-air-with-nowhere-to-pass-or-shoot play or his ability to turn a simple 10 foot pass into an adventure by doing it one-handed…often with his left hand.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
he's just exploring his game and growing as a player
we often forget that these are young men, what 21 years old?
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
YEs!
I agree, I am going to the game tonight. I wonder how many he’ll do? My guess in his brilliant 25 minuets of play he’ll manage at least three.
by twolvesparamour on Feb 5, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
There is no game tonight. You'll be alone in the dark.
"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."
Denver Nuggets
I’ll be with an exuberant crowd hoping for an unexpected win right around 10:00pm.
"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it."
by twolvesparamour on Feb 5, 2011 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Somehow Jonny is still going to turn it over. You watch.
"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco
I hope, but it might be with a different team. Like the Skyforce.
"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it."
by twolvesparamour on Feb 5, 2011 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
just standing around
with no one able to create his own shot, except when B-easy decides to do it. But’s B-easy’s nowhere delivering the 10-10-10 that Oceanary said he’d have to deliver to get to the next level. Maybe Mayo could deliver as a 2-guard. No one else is doing it for the T-wolvesat this time, as evidenced by the shot selection charts. Timeclock-running-out long two pointers, or Darko shots from 6-8 feet, aren’t going to result in high percentage shooting games.
no faith
I don’t have much faith in B-easy. I think he expects to much of himself and therefore fails to produce much. I think if he re-thought his role on the team, it may help the team produce wins. Darko should not score. He needs to play defense and help the offense in other ways. ( I am basing the latter statement on when he scores more then 10 or 12 points we loose) He seems to have some potential with racking up assists, and opening up the floor for the guards, but he needs to toughen up. It would also help if we had a pure scorer like mayo or even Curry???
"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it."
by twolvesparamour on Feb 5, 2011 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
We lose a lot... But fact check:
Darko has actually scored about 1.1 more point a night in Wolves wins than in Wolves’ losses. It’s not a big difference, particularly given that he’s played a couple of minutes more in wins too.
He also shoots it at about a 12.5 FGA/36 rate in wins, as opposed to 13+ shots per 36 in losses. So our magic prescription, which shouldn’t surprise anyone, is that Darko needs to score more while shooting less. Ta dum!
"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco
Thanks for the updates
It takes dedication to stick with following this crew. After 25 years of being a die-hard, I’m tuning out. Seems more efficient to check the recap and confirm that the game went they way I thought it would than to commit to watch something I am struggling to enjoy. Particularly when the team seems unserious about improving. The same thing happened for me with the Gophers after Clem left and the scandal. With a nod to “Kingpin”, my Wolves fandom has been “Monson-ed” by Kahn and Rambis.
If I could talk myself into the future hope of Rubio coming and being an All-Star talent things might be different, but I suspect he’ll be more like “White Chocolate” at best. At least I’ll always have the beginning of the fun from ‘96-’98, the ’04 WCF run, and January ’09.
Calderon is going to receive a serious suspension for hitting those small children after the game
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
It's a cultural thing
That’s how they celebrate in Spain. If Rubio does come here, the Wolves may have to put in an age limit for attending games….or provide lucky season ticket holders with the opportunity to have their kid punched in the face by the Spanish Sensation.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
Rambis
On the one hand, the coach doesn’t really control the talent he’s given, and talent is really the most important element of winning NBA games.
On the other hand, the most important function of a coach is optimizing the talent on the roster by distributing minutes to the best players and running schemes that distribute touches and shots commensurately to the players’ talents. On this front, Rambis fails miserably. He gives huge minutes to guys like Darko, Flynn, and Brewer while also diluting the minutes of his few serviceable players beyond Love (Tolliver, Ridnour, and Webster/Johnson by default) by handing over bit minutes to guys like Ellington, Koufos, and even sometimes Lazar.
The amazing thing about this team is that the talent is so bad, and yet, the coach manages to exacerbate the team’s talent deficiencies by failing to recognize the relative “cream” that populates this roster.
The other interesting thing to note is how much this team misses Ridnour—for all the maligning early in the season, he’s this team’s third-best player, at least. We also desperately need competent wing play, as there isn’t a wing on the roster who registers at even average for his position.
by WolvesFan03 on Feb 5, 2011 9:49 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
ill conceived logic
While I’ll agree and have for two months that coaching has prevented this team from winning more games this example is “picking nits” and unfair to all involved.
I’ve stated before that Darko is a servicable center but the coach should never at this point run the offense through him. He is too emotionally brittle. That stated he was having a good game last night and normal substitution patterns would put him back in the game at that point. Where are the “mounds of statistical evidence” that Tolliver (who this sight has ripped lately) is suddenly the better option? Nor was he hot last night.
Flynn, this site’s DWB has played well lately. ST not as well as early on. Last night Flynn had 7 assists to go with his 3 turnovers, ST had 0 assists to go with his 3 turnovers.
the substitutions at the time, matching up starters was accurate. Additionally Flynn was subbed back out 2:30 later.
The play by play shows Darko contributed one turnover to the run. Flynn missed a layup which did not lead to a raptors score, and was subbed out.
Understand the frustration level with the coaching, the team and even the FO but to use these few minutes as a sample of what’s wrong is unjustified.
And here’s a question: who thinks based on what they’ve seen this season that the Wolves win that game regardless of what lineup was out there? Sadly, I don’t for a minute.
Those are close
“designated whipping boy”
by Tangerine dream on Feb 5, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Ouch, Flynn is at shoot around, trying to ignore Kurt
and having a stabbing pain between his shoulder blades where multiple knifes are being stuck.
Kurt puts guys in position to fail.
Darko should only roll hard to front of rim in p/roll or duck in weakside when Love picks n pops. Giving him the ball and expecting him to make plays, hurts Darko. Put Beas on post please. Only run p/ roll for Flynn, with corners filled and decent spacing. You could go on and on, bottom line is Kurt puts guys in spots where they struggle. Forget D, can’t even get into the sucktitude of that other than say, please sprint back in transition D. Talent is not NBA elite, but 11 wins, come on!!!
Agreed
Coach does not coach to player’s/team’s strengths.
by Tangerine dream on Feb 5, 2011 10:06 AM CST reply actions
Remember the pre-season discussions about how we'd win games
because our second unit would be so much better than other teams’ second units? The funny thing is, it didn’t seem ridiculous to me at the time. Live and learn, I suppose.
Charlotte Bobcats
I think the points of this posting are validated when looking at the history of the Charlotte Bobcats, an expansion team playing their first season in 2004:
2004-05 18-64
2005-06 26-56
2006-07 33-49
2007-08 32-50
2008-09 35-47
2009-10 44-38
2010-11 21-28
Wolves:
2007-08 (first post-Garnett year) 22-60
2008-09 24-58
2009-10 15-67
2010-11 11-38
This was a team (Bobcats) created out of thin air that has only had one year that was as bad as our best year, post-Garnett. Point being, I think the “5 minutes and a computer” theory is demonstrated by the fact that you could literally put together a team out of bits and pieces and taking the BPA in drafts and do a better job than Kahn/Rambis.
Losing has become institutionalized in this franchise and it will take a series of ridiculous miracles, not a single all-star selection to change that.
…and remember how the 3-year rebuilding plan had us contending for a playoff spot next year? I’ll eat my hat if that’s the case.
Sigh….but somehow I continue to follow this team and somehow be fascinated by the creative ways they botch things and by the eternal prospect of a miracle draft pick who will save our team.
by OkieWolf on Feb 5, 2011 11:39 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Western conference
Is that a fair comparison? I think the Wolves would have 20 wins if they played in the East.
by Tangerine dream on Feb 5, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions
Easily.
Plus, the Wolves went young (eventually), and Charlotte is desperately throwing veterans on the court. Neither philosophy has worked particularly well (so far), but it’s an apples-and-golf balls comparison.
Kevin Love is not the problem.
Which should remind us that there are worse GMs than David Kahn.
Michael Jordan, for one. He hires Larry Brown to develop young talent, at this point in LB’s career. You think? No.
"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco
Charlotte's drafting
…hasn’t been much better than ours. Adam Morrison? Shelden Williams? Ray Felton (doing okay in NY but drafted too high)? Yet the records are significantly better, and I think better than by more than conferences and divisions would cause.
What was wrong with Darko's game?
Darko gets his share of criticism during the games where he is a no-show. But last night, he got us 15 and 7 with 4 blocks and has 2 TO’s. He held Bargnani to 10 for 26. He makes $4mill/yr. What do you want? 20 and 10 with 6 blocks and hold Bargnani to 7 of 26 for $2 mill/yr?
Bargnani shoots 10 -26 while Toronto forwards Amir Johnson, Sonny Weems, and some guy named Ed Davis shoot a combined 19-28. Ouch.
Sadly, I don’t have any defense for Jonny. Our typical possession with Jonny in the game starts with him dribbling for at least 10 seconds and ignoring any open post player. Except for the ones where we go for a bad shot early in the clock. When we have a 3 on 1 and Jonny has the ball, I fully expect us not to score. I don’t think he will be in the NBA next year.
Criticism is he's so wildly inconsistent.
He was billed as “mana”, not his fault, but he can’t live up to billing. Starters have to be somewhat dependable, Darko is a bench guy, who for some strange reason Kurt chooses to feature at times
The problem with Darko's game
isn’t Darko…It’s the way Rambis uses him. He gets way too many touches. He should be more of a low usage Center like Perkins, Camby, etc.
by Rascal Flatts on Feb 5, 2011 1:57 PM CST up reply actions
the F.O. promised Darko a bigger role...
…to keep him from taking his ball and running home to Europe.
His delicate psyche requires the kind of ego massage that running an offense through him gives.
Exactly.
I get the impression from watching that Darko LOVES offense, and doesn’t have the same passion for playing defense.
So his playing defense is kind of our ‘reward’ for making him such an offensive focal point.
We’ve all seen how easily Darko mentally checks out of some games. I believe the more you restrict his offense, the more often he’ll check out.
There's a quote out there from before the season
where he says that he hates being pigeonholed as a defensive player and that he thinks he can do so much more. So you’re dead on with this.
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
if Darko hates defense....
how do the other Wolves feel about defense? I think he thrives on the challenge of going up against Duncan, Stoudemire, Griffin, etc….
And as far as last night goes, he was 7 for 13 on a night when we shot 41%. He should have taken MORE shots. He was being guarded by Bargnani. Bargnani would be a below-average defender even for us.
This write-up exudes . . .
. . . SnP’s desire to once again make everything about the last two years top draft picks. Perfect opportunity to rip on the wolves with the Flynn and Darko substitution. Too bad Rambis didn’t have Curry and Cousins instead, is what I’m reading between the lines.
I don’t think Darko is the problem. His defense is a good pairing with Love, and when/if the wolves get a PG and SG, he won’t be a top option for scoring. The wolves do need an adequate back-up center. Hopefully Pek will fill that role.
Flynn is a bust, just like McCan’ts, Foye, and Brewer. It’s right for the wolves to play him before the trade deadline to try to get some value, but should they just cut ties after that date?
With all the turmoil caused by Kahn, the team is still salvageable. Rubio will make us forget about Flynn. Pek develops into a solid back-up at center. Beasly and Johnson make the 3 the primary scoring option. And the wolves get their SG before the trade deadline.
The last point is the most important for me. If the wolves don’t get a fantastic 2 before the trade deadline, then I’ll stop following. And they do need a coach who develops a system based on the strengths of the players, rather than trying to fit the players into a rigid system.
"If the wolves don’t get a fantastic 2 before the trade deadline, then I’ll stop following"
Who is this “fantastic 2” that someone is going to give us?
Iggy may be available, but Kahn has already said he makes too much, and its unlikely Taylor will shell out those dollars unless he plans on not keeping Love or Beasley.
Who else is out there that is available (and fantastic)?
That's the point, Kahn hasn't gotten it done.
Iggy was available at the beginning of the year, but Kahn didn’t pursue it enough to get it done. Iggy is no longer availabe. Jason Richardson and Vince Carter were also available earlier. Kahn also could have gotten Xavier Henry by trading Flynn.
Kahn has had many chances to get a 2, but hasn’t pulled the trigger. For me, this trade dealine is the heartbreaker moment for Kahn. Other posters have written off Kahn sooner, for you it might be later.
Right now, Mayo and Evan Turner could be had at the right price.
by ThisIsForSota on Feb 5, 2011 3:50 PM CST up reply actions
How is this going to happen?
If the wolves don’t get a fantastic 2 before the trade deadline, then I’ll stop following
I look forward to your future posts:
If I don’t win the lottery this weekend then I will be forced to not quit my job
If Egypt doesn’t have a stable government by tomorrow, then I’m not moving there
If Halle Berry doesn’t respond to at least one of my letters, then I’m going to choose to remain single
You've convinced me! Just told my wife and kid we're moving to Singapore!
by Son of Gerald Green on Feb 5, 2011 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
That's fine that you have no faith in Kahn
I’m holding on a little longer, until the trading deadline. Kahn has pulled out a tremendous trade before (see two expiring’s for Rubio), and I still wonder if lightning can strike twice.
by ThisIsForSota on Feb 5, 2011 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
I have to agree with this
. . . SnP’s desire to once again make everything about the last two years top draft picks. Perfect opportunity to rip on the wolves with the Flynn and Darko substitution. Too bad Rambis didn’t have Curry and Cousins instead, is what I’m reading between the lines.
I don’t read this blog religiously but I have to say that this comes up almost every single post I read from SnP. We all get it man, you disagree with the picks. Let me know when you’ve finished beating that dead horse into dust…
Sad part Kahn era is
Wolves were set up by previous regime with multiple 1st & 2nd round picks and 20 million+ in cap space. All of that has landed current team and assets are burned up for the most part. Still have cap some flexibility but don’t seem likely to use it. All in all, a sad use of many assets. That is the frustration.
If we trade Love and Beasley for cheaper young assets and additional high draft picks we can end up in the same boat again.
I’m not advocating this, but just stating we can keep stoking the wheels of rebuilding and failure if we choose to.
Re-writing history
This is a complete fabrication of the previous regime. The previous regime left no cap room for Kahn. Kahn’s greatest strength is making cap room, and he has done an exceptional job of it. That is all Kahn, not McHale.
The previous regime also only left only one high draft pick. Kahn manufactured the other two high draft picks. One by trading two expiring contracts, one of them a McHale draft bust. The other high draft pick came from tanking last season rather than losing it due to McHale’s horrible trade.
by ThisIsForSota on Feb 5, 2011 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
McHale created a big mess
but he was on his way toward cleaning it up before he was fired. The Love trade helped a lot.
McHale wasn't cleaning up
He had one fantastic draft out of his last four, with the other three being busts. He still didn’t deal with having his best two players at the same position, didn’t clear cap space, didn’t build a team around his best two players, couldn’t hire a good coach, ended up with nothing in return for the KG trade, and started tanking because he made a horrible trade by giving away a future first round pick.
by ThisIsForSota on Feb 5, 2011 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not going to argue that McHale did a ton of things right
but he did, in fact, make a start toward getting out of the salary-cap hell he put us in. Read this article about the Love / Mayo trade to see how he saved us $8 million in cap space this season with the deal.
The Love-Mayo trade was a great trade, McHale's best
It was a fantastic trade. But one great trade does not mean McHale was on his way to getting substantially under the cap, anymore than one great draft day trade means he was on his way to being a great drafter.
by ThisIsForSota on Feb 5, 2011 3:40 PM CST up reply actions
I think getting out from under Jaric's contract was a significant move
toward resolving cap issues. And part of the reason Kahn’s team is so far under the cap is that he’s willing to field a roster with 9 players who are on their rookie contracts. That both hasn’t worked out very well and can’t last, unless he trades Love and Beasley for picks or younger players.
I believe all the players traded in summer 09 were last year guys.
Got picks by using trade exception with Philly and trade with Miami. Team was set BEFORE Kahn got here to have multiple picks and 20+ in cap space.
Yes.
That’s been a common defense of Kahn—“Well look at all the cap space he created!! I’d rather have him than McHale!!”
McHale certainly had his faults, but his performance was light years ahead of what Kahn’s accomplished so far.
Kevin Love is not the problem.
However, I do like the fact that Kahn's mistakes
have so far not included putting us back into salary cap hell. It might make the next guy’s re-re-re-building effort shorter by a couple of years. (We just need to be patient, right?)
Shockingly, I'm going to give less credit to Kahn
for remaining well under the cap, and more to Glen Taylor’s New Frugality.
Kevin Love is not the problem.
Remember that when the Clippers are stepping to the podium
to announce the draft selection they make with our pick.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I'll take some comfort in knowing
that if the Wolves were to have kept the pick, it would have likely been used on the likes of Wes Johnson, Jonny Flynn, or Reluctant Ricky Rubio.
Kevin Love is not the problem.
There are no top prospects named "Kevin"
in the draft for the next two years, so the Wolves chances of getting a potential All Star there are exactly zero.
Kevin Love is not the problem.
I'm not as much defending Kahn
as just trying to portray an accurate picture of his starting point. It’s rather difficult to get this far under the cap. And that was all Kahn, not McHale.
by ThisIsForSota on Feb 5, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
Kahn's job
Making cap room is not difficult at all if you’re willing to sacrifice any shred of competitiveness and organizational pride. Kiki Vanderweghe did it in Denver, Walsh did it in NY and has more room this coming year. Pat Riley created historic cap room in Miami while making the playoffs last year—give him the credit. The Clips, Cavs and Raptors—all have gobs of cap room.
Was picking Flynn part of tanking? Was picking Rubio, who wouldn’t be here for two or three years or ever? If you want to give Kahn credit for deciding to lose games, the payoff should really be more than Wes Johnson. Or is he still tanking, for reasons which elude us all?
I’ll give Kahn credit for this: the Foye-Miller trade, although it has yielded nothing yet. For drumming up interest with his deck shuffling and amusing candor. For signing Tolliver. For landing Rambis, an impressive candidate at the time. (Or part of the tanking?)
But even Kahn spoke optimistically about where he started from. And in the better part of two seasons, the Wolves have advanced all the way to. . . marginally less painful to watch.
Moral of the story:
Play Anthony Tolliver 48 mpg.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
And go Shawn Watson and Barney Cotton! Seriously, leave Lincoln. Now.
Super Bowl here we come!
The oddest thing about picking back to back point guards in 2009 isnt just that Khan picked back to back point gaurds but which ones he picked.
Rubio – largely unknown commodity but I think he got hyped for his Olympic performace. His numbers have not improved much in a league with far inferior talent than the NBA which is a major concern.
Flynn – If the FO wanted an insurance point in case Rubio never makes it here, I would think combo guard like Curry would make the most sense because then IF Rubio comes over you could play both. Furthemore, there was a wealth of point guard talent in 2009. Not even looking at Evans who was selected before our pick and thus unavailable (assuming we could not have packaged picks and other assests for the 2nd or 3rd pick)
Curry 19 pts 1.8 stls 6 ass 3.6 reb 48% fg 20 PER 1.99A/TO
Jennings 16.2 pts 1 stls 5.3 ass 3.7 reb 38% fg 14.2PER 2.39A/TO
Holiday 14 pts 1.4 stls 6.6 ass 4 reb 43% fg 16PER 2.36 A/TO
Lawson 10.6 pts .8 stls 3.8 ass 2.2 reb 50% fg 11.4 PER 2.6A/TO
Collison 13.8 1.1 stls 5 ass 3 reb 46% fg 14.1PER 2.13A/TO
Flynn 5 pts .6 stls 3.3 ass 1.4 reb 36.5% fg 4.8PER 1.6A/TO
There were 4 other point gaurds taken in the first round of 2009 who have had mixed success.
Teague
Maynor
Beaubois
Douglas
These guys were more unknown since they played for small schools and came from over seas so I no one saw them as lottery picks as evidenced by the fact that none went in the lottery.
Looking at just lottery talent (or potential lottery talent) – we didnt just kind of miss with Flynn but rather we got the worst point guard of all the lottery potential point guards by a really really large margin.
All but Lawson are starters and Lawson gets almost starter mins and Denver is willing to trade Billups because they envision Lawson as their point of the future. So basically we had a 83% (or 5 out of 6) chance of drafting a legit starting point gaurd that could contribute immediately and somehow we managed to lose on those odds….
For those that claim Flynn is still really young and too inexperienced to expect much productivity – keep in mind all the players I included were drafted in the same class and are producing far more consistently. In Today’s NBA, it isnt at all uncommon for young players to contribute in very meaningful ways in their first couple of years – in fact most upper level talent do just this.
by absentmindedprof on Feb 5, 2011 2:51 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Except for one problem
Flynn is coming off of a severe injury and surgery and he’s averaging just 17 mpg (a stat I notice you left off your list). Of the 5 you listed, only Lawson is getting below 30 mpg, and he is still 6 mpg higher than Flynn…and not recovering from hip surgery that Flynn is clearly still recovering from (though it’s debatable whether he will ever fully recover his explosiveness or not).
It’s entirely possible that Flynn is the worst of the point guards you have listed here, but try to be a little more fair. It’s not as cut and dry as your numbers suggest (though your bias is clear). Perhaps you should include their numbers from their rookie seasons as well. You know, when Flynn was totally healthy and getting decent minutes?
Don't look too closely at those rookie numbers by Flynn.
They start to look like an overcooked crust with no pie inside when you look at ’em too hard.
"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco
by feral on Feb 5, 2011 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Where do I start?
Bias? lol… I guess I could say your bias is more clear than mine. However, I’m not anti-Flynn per se but I’m just looking at the numbers. I didnt make them up – they are what they are.
On your issue of playing time – Why do you think Flynn dosent play as many minutes as the other players I look at? The causal assumption that mins ==> production is a complete fallacy. In the NBA it also works out that production ==> mins you play. If you dont play well, coaches put you on short leash and you get yanked.
The injury point is certainly important but it cuts both ways that you also failed to discuss. Flynn is not the only player to have played through injuries this year. Curry has missed many games and has been playing with bad ankles all year (missed about 10 games). Jennings has missed almost as much time as Flynn (missed about 20 games). However, neither you nor I can speculate on how injuries have affected his play. In my opinion, if you are playing. then you are healthly enough to play and should be productive in the time alloted.
I didnt include last year’s numbers because the point is that right now, Flynn is the worst of all the other point guards and its not even close. This is especially agnozing to wolves fans because many of our losses this year are directly attributable to poor play at the guard positions. But let’s entertain your point and look at last year’s numbers because they are not that flattering to Flynn either way.
Curry 17.5 pts 4.4 reb 5.9 ass 25PER48 1.9A/TO
Jennings 15.5 pts 3.4 reb 5.7 ass 20.3PER48 2.4A/TO
Lawson 8.3 pts 1.9 reb 3.1 ass 22.4PER48 2.5A/TO
Holiday 8 pts 2.8 reb 3.6 ass 18.7PER48 1.8A/TO
Collison 12.4 pts 2.5 reb 5.7 ass 23.3PER48 2.1A/TO
Flynn 13.5 pts 2.4 reb 4.4 ass 18.3PER48 1.5A/TO
True Flynn put up better pts/reb/ass but I put more stock into PER and A/TO since players can shoot more to score more but this isnt necessarily good for the team. I also use PER per 48 to adjust for different levels of playing time. Even when “healthy” and getting a lot of playing time, he still has the worst PER48 and worst A/TO ratio out of all the other well – known point guards taken in the first round – the bad news is that he was drafted ahead of ALL of them. And if you look at PER48 this year, the same pattern holds true – he ranks last in efficiency even after controlling for minutes played.
by absentmindedprof on Feb 5, 2011 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
What killed me watching the T-Wolves draft
was that they took Lawson … AND TRADED HIM.
Egh.
CDR and Courtney Lee: just two players the Bulls could have at SG this year.
RIP Keith Bogans Prophecy [12-1]
Wolves = Bad
I’m all in for something new. Rubio, a trade, the Draft, new coach, new GM, whatever.
They got schooled by a Raptors team with lots of players out. Yeah, we missed Luke, but….
Love, Beasely, Tolliver, Luke are the Wolves best players.
I don’t see anything else. Maybe Wes gets better. Brewer sometimes.
Flynn needs to go. Telfair not the answer. Webster not playing well. Lazar doesn’t play. Ellington doesn’t play much. Pek is not NBA material. And the team isn’t growing at all, and that’s on the coach.
The Wolves will be in the hunt for #1 or #2 pick, but do you trust them to make a good choice? They’ve blown the last two drafts (pending Rubio). The best move was the Beasely pick up.
Arghh!!! Invest the $155 million is a roof for the new Vikings stadium instead.
Kahn v Kurt
Kurt goes first for two reasons:
1. Do you agree that Kurt was a big part in the selection of this team? I think he was very involved in the process and unlike last year where he gets a complete pass he liked this group and I believe he has a great deal of ownership. May explain why all of the excuses have been “too young” instead of notenough talent. In this scenario he can be indicted for both (either) poor evaluation of talent or inability to motivate / produce results.
“We got you your guys, where are the results”?
2. If these are Kahn/ Ronzone players then the determination has to be made if it’s the talent or the coach. Only one way to find out and it’s not by firing Kahn.
Should the next coach have similar results then the focus goes to POBO.
My guess is Rambis slides for the remainder of the season due to the combo of youth excuse plus all of the injuries.
But when the dominos begin to fall 15-20 games into next season it will probably be Kurt first.
All of that stated the landscape changes dramatically if they deal for a real 2. And Kahn is still holding an ace with that cap space. Could be a very defining decision / non decision regarding his personal tenure.
Snp
I usually agree with most of his posts, and he has some great ideas that I wish the Wolves would implement – for example Beas with the second unit. But this was a pretty random turning point to pick in the game. As pointed out above, Darko had a very solid game last night and Flynn wasn’t terrible for once either. It was certainly defensible to bring them back in.
More importantly, the problem with this team is not substitution patterns. It is lack of D. That too can be blamed largely on Rambis. But it is odd that Snp picks on Darko and Flynn in a game where there were a host of other problems including our all-star getting torched by the fearsome twosome of Ed Davis and Amir Johnson.
by Vlade on Feb 5, 2011 6:21 PM CST via mobile reply actions
The problems are in the back court.
Big men rely on the point guard to get the ball at the right time and at the right place on the block and they rely on the two guard for spacing. After more first round and lottery draft picks than I can count and many trades MInny has a terrible, horrible back court that turns the ball over, cannot defend, and cannot score.
Rubio & Flynn were wasted picks
I have written many times nobody could do a worse job of evaluating draft talent than McFail. I could not have been more wrong in this assessment.
It really is amazing how they were able to find someone worse
Not only that, but he fails for many of the same reasons. Both put too much stock in tourney performances, interviews, and how they look or feel vis-a-vis whatever it is that stands in for an ideal player in their minds eye.
That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com
Im not ready to say they are wasted picks yet
But to me it is beyond mind-boggling that we drafted 3 point guards, signed one in free agency and we still have such a gaping need at point guard. In the event Rubio never makes it or just isnt very good, we literally are no better at point guard than we were in 2008 even though we have spent a considerable amount of assests trying to upgrade that position.
by absentmindedprof on Feb 7, 2011 7:36 PM CST up reply actions
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