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#freeAnthonyRandolph

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When the Timberwolves acquired Anthony Randolph at the trade deadline, David Kahn said he didn't think Randolph was going to help the team very much this year. And that struck me as very...odd. AR was a good player at Golden State....arguably the 09-10 Warriors' second best player behind just Corey Maggette...despite being the youngest guy on the roster and the most frequent target of Don Nelson's mind games. He was nearly a 20-10 player per36 that season. He's 6'11" with a 7'3" wingspan and 35" vertical. He can handle the ball as well as most guards. How could a player like that not help this team?

Well....it turns out the reason is Kurt Rambis kind of won't play him.

Randolph has played nearly all of his minutes in a Wolves uni at center, and that means he's competing with the East Europe Bloc...Darko Milicic and Nikola Pekovic...for burn. Which I don't really think and didn't think was much of a competition at all.

Anthony Randolph is just better.

Star-divide

 

Here's the quick comparison totals in the games the Wolves have played since Randolph arrived:

Darko Milicic
143 minutes
39 points
4 FTA
35 rebounds
6 assists
16 turnovers

Nikola Pekovic
121 minutes
65 points
19 FTA
20 rebounds
4 assists
16 turnovers

Anthony Randolph
145 minutes
69 points
21 FTA
33 rebounds
11 assists
9 turnovers

Now, there's a couple things to point out here. First, the only reason Randolph has played the most total minutes of the three is because Darko missed 3 games in that stretch. If we go by minutes/game, Darko has averaged nearly 21 minutes per contest in this stretch, with Randolph at 14/game and Pekovic at 12/game. And second, Randolph has had three games were he's played 7 minutes or less. 7 minutes against the Jazz, just 4 against the Hornets, and just 4 the first contest against the Warriors. That adds up to a fairly significant amount in this sample size, but getting bits and pieces like that isn't enough to establish any rhythm or get a feel for the game, which artificially hurts his scoring and rebounding.

Pekovic has played a lot of games of limited minutes, but that nearly always has to do with picking up fouls. Over the last 10 games he's racked up 29 fouls....that's 3 per one quarter of floor time. Really not good. But his limited minutes are his own doing. #Pekoviccan'tbefreed

The other thing of note is Randolph quite handily beats out them both in a key category for the Wolves this year...assists/turnover ratio. One of the most interesting things about this comparison is to look at what Darko and Pekovic combine for compared to what Randolph does by himself. Over the last 10 games, Randolph has totaled more assists than Darko and Pek combined, and has committed just 9 turnovers to their 32.

Next, let's look at the three per36:

Darko: 10ppg, 9rpg, 1.5apg, 4TOpg
Pekovic: 19.5ppg, 6rpg, 1.2apg, 4.8TOpg
Randolph: 18ppg, 8.5rpg, 3apg, 2.7TOpg

So per36, you're getting basically the best parts of the EuroDuo combined, without either of their mistakes. Again, Randolph by himself is giving the team as much, if not more, than Darko and Pek combined.

But perhaps the most revealing comparison is if we add together the totals of the Darkone and the Godfather and then stretch Randolph's numbers out to that amount of minutes. So it's...per264 (I know i know...), and this is what we get:

Brand DM-NP:
264 minutes
104 points (23 FTA)
55 rebounds
10 assists
32 turnovers
55 fouls committed

Anthony 'Solo' Randolph
264 minutes
126 points (38 FTA)
60 rebounds
20 assists
16 turnovers
29 fouls committed

Oh. Wow. Would you look at that. Per264, Randolph would have done more everything good and less everything bad by himself than the Bash'em Bros did as a tag team.

Meaning: if Randolph had played those 264 minutes instead of Darko and Pekovic...and they had been limited between them to AR's 145....the team would have very likely scored more, rebounded more, facilitated more, all while making fewer mistakes. And probably would have had a couple more wins.

Look, 264 minutes isn't a lot of burn over 10 games. That's just 26 minutes a contest...barely more than half a game a night. Anthony Randolph produced more with fewer mistakes than both of the actual centers he competed with for playing time. It shouldn't be hard to find him 26 minutes to play a night, especially when he's better than the guys he'd be replacing. He should be playing at least that much every night for the rest of the year. And I'd bet if you extend him out to 36 minutes a game for the rest of the year, he'll get damn close to outproducing his counterparts at a 2-to-1 ratio.

Yes, Randolph is underweight for the center spot. His basketball IQ is still a long ways away, and he's painfully young. But he's doing more while being given less, and that would make a major difference for the Wolves...if he was consistently on the floor.

Jim Peterson asked the million dollar question at the end of the Detroit game: if Randolph is going to be this good, how do you keep him off the floor? Apparently the answer is 'put him on Kurt Rambis' team'.

#KevinLoveisfree. Now it's time to #freeAnthonyRandolph.

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Fun post, thanks.

I missed the Detroit game, and I would love to hear more about JPete’s take. Anything other talking points?

by TheH on Mar 16, 2011 6:09 AM CDT reply actions  

if a dude like javale mcgee gets a starting job in the nba,

then why shouldn’t ant rand

humor = misinformation x seriousness

by big_p.a.w.z. on Mar 16, 2011 6:16 AM CDT reply actions  

idk if this is a shot at JaVale.

(i just had surgery so it may be the percocet im on) but my brother is a huge Wizards fan, so having seen McGee a lot (not to mention the trip-double last night) I have to say he is a hell of a player, with alot of potential. he is much more gifted in the post than people give him credit for. he has trouble with foul trouble like most young big men, but he is gonna be a force in this league!

I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..

by Love4MVP on Mar 16, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ha

Got T’ed up when he celebrated excessively on the dunk that got him the triple-double. Oh yeah, and they were down like twenty with under a minute left.

by Dumbhead62 on Mar 16, 2011 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

If I got my first triple double I would celebrate excessively too

I doubt Mr. Love would get super excited about it.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Mar 16, 2011 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Blocks

Could you please add blocks to the comparison?

by lurifax on Mar 16, 2011 6:17 AM CDT reply actions  

Blocks don't necessarily tell a story by themselves

I would be more interested in things like opponent’s field goal percentage, points per posession, etc.

Stockpiling "winnable" games since we lost the first one

by Cedarpenguin on Mar 16, 2011 6:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe...

…but interesting, nontheless.

by lurifax on Mar 16, 2011 7:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Neither do any other stat.

However, Darko had 13 blocks while Randolph had 6 (at least that’s how I counted, but may have counted incorrectly).

by KGMN on Mar 16, 2011 7:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Darko's turnovers

Don’t do our defense any favors.

by Dumbhead62 on Mar 16, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Toss in early shots and general fast pace...

Not a recipe for a young team to get on its feet defensively.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

The blocks are heavily in Darko's favor

His blocks totals and blocks% is pretty special. Not that it actually helps our interior D much, but eh…

The reason I left it off the list though is because it’d be really unfair to Pekovic. He just doesn’t have the height or length to be a goalie. I think he has something like 29 or 30 blocks total this year, which is a number Darko or AR could get to in a single month pretty easily

by Oceanary on Mar 16, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great post......

The number thing AR brings that Darko lacks is energy……..hopefully we’ll get to see more of AR

by mnsportsjunkie on Mar 16, 2011 6:51 AM CDT reply actions  

Randoph is not a center

You are comparing one center to a forward turned center to a forward. That is why he isn’t getting play time.

If he was a guard and was good at his position he’d probably be able to be used faster. Basically we have too many forwards, he needs to learn another position.

by fantwolves on Mar 16, 2011 7:25 AM CDT reply actions  

They've subbed Randolph in almost exclusively for Darko or Pekovic.

Not being able to watch these days I don’t know if they’re just not using him against bad matchups. Whether they sometimes slide Love to take the center matchup defensively, for example, I dunno.

He’s on the center for lots of the minutes he has gotten, though, anyway. Isn’t he?

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's pretty much exclusively at center

And exclusively guarding centers, because he’s spent most of his time on the floor with Tolliver

by Oceanary on Mar 16, 2011 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Should include Tolliver too

All good points, but saying we’d have won a game or two more is a stretch.

This is the first time all year we’ve had a healthy team. Can’t fault Rambis for wanting to play the line-up who’s been here all year. Talk about a classic damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

by Rodman99 on Mar 16, 2011 7:39 AM CDT reply actions  

+1

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow...

I didn’t realize Pek was turning it over more than Darko.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 8:08 AM CDT reply actions  

It's the offensive fouls

Darko gets the ball taken away. Pek gets whistled.

by Airete on Mar 16, 2011 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Wolves have three pretty awful turnover engines.

Jonny Flynn, who coughs it up 27+% of the time when he’s on the court;
Pekovic, at above a 1 in 5 %; and
Darko, at a smidge below that rate.

Juxtaposing “usage” and turnover percentage, the roster looks a little weird that way. Turnovers count toward usage. Jonny really pushes the edge of reasonable math that way.

In Wolves history, another injured point guard is among the very few bad turnover apples that were anywhere near as bad as Flynn this year. Michael Williams was worse – albeit in under 200 minutes, because the team didn’t play him with his plantar fasciitis.

There are only 13 players in the league this year who’re getting any minutes at all and turning it over like Flynn. Rondo is one of them, and so is rookie Eric Bledsoe. It’s pretty much PGs and centers.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

So that's where...

All the “Flynn could turn out like Rondo” comparisons are coming from! ;-)

by ElliotMRCS on Mar 16, 2011 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Haha

It can’t be a good sign that every optimistic player comparison we’ve seen for Flynn seems to be based on common deficiencies. “He’s just as short as Chris Paul, so he’ll be just as good!” “He could be Jason Terry, since neither of them are ideal as starters!”

This Rondo one is a joke, but I could see it being given as an earnest take: “Sure he turns it over a lot, but so does Rondo. You have to take some risks with the ball in order to create offense.”

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Mar 16, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, Flynn definitely has the

“taking risks with the ball” part of the equation down, so he’s halfway there. If only he could create offense…

by Dumbhead62 on Mar 16, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sometimes it's not even risks he takes

it’s more basic than that, like dribbling the ball off his foot. For a guy that appears to be a life long PG with a low center of gravity, I’ve been shocked by how often he simply loses the handle or easily gets the ball poked away from him.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 16, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

The fix for Darko is so easy/obvious too

Stop feeding him the ball on offense. He doesn’t give you anything remotely positive there (he’s an extremely inefficient scorer). In the event he shuts down and stops playing defense because of the lack of touches, you just acknowledge that he can’t provide anything of value and sit him on the bench (like many teams before us have done).

I’m a little more hopeful for Pekovic—he’s still at a stage in his NBA career where he can presumably adjust to the league and cut down on the offensive whistles/travels. Also, unlike Darko, he actually gives you efficient scoring on that end (Pek has the 2nd-best TS% on the team after Love).

by WolvesFan03 on Mar 16, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

How can Darko himself not "get" this?

It’s not like Kevin Love is getting his offense by being fed down low on every other possession, and the guy’s doing fine offensively. Darko, just do the things defensively you need to do, rebound, move the ball, and if the rest comes it’s going to be so much easier than being stripped while trying to set up a left-handed hook.

Pekovic is progressing almost exactly like one would have said based on his Euro numbers. He can be useful.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

In some way I would like to see a Darko summit

where all of his assorted former coaches sit around a table and explain why they all decided to go a different way than him. I can just look at his play and see running an offense through him is disastrous but I suspect that coaches and GMs, many of whom spent a lot of resources over the years to acquire Darko and then immediately demote him probably have some other reasons that relate to pushing back against what Darko perceives his offensive skill set to be. In short I think a lot of coaches said in not too many words “You’re a bad offensive player, but you can earn minutes here with your defense”, Darko responded either directly to that in a negative fashion or he “checked out” and then he went to the pine.

And Wolves’ fans have seen something similar here. Most of the time the Wolves go away from Darko for long stretches offensively he completely checks out defensively.

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

We need to stage an intervention.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well at the time of the signing I mentioned that I think we were stuck with Darko

barring injury until either Kahn or Rambis and possibly both were let go. It was always far less about the money and years than about the commitment to minutes and touches.

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

I wonder how much the Wolves were told, or the Wolves understood

about his genetic blood condition. Maybe we can get out of the contract?

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well they should have known about his pack a day smoking "condition"

Which is far more relevant and would have only taken a half day from a private eye or basic physical testing.

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

This seems

exactly true. The problem is not Darko the player, it is Darko the man.

Only four more months until the lockout begins!

by PoorDick on Mar 16, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bumper sticker ideas

Don’t be like Darko
Be the Darko
Man up, Darko

Naw, his lack of fire is likely just a B vitamin deficency

by Zev on Mar 16, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem with TO%

for PGs is that it doesn’t include assists in the denominator, so a guy like Rondo gets punished because he doesn’t take many shots. This is where good old fashioned Assist/TO ratio comes in handy, and on that front, Rondo absolutely crushes Jonny Flynn.

Simply put, the ratio of good things happening to bad things happening when Darko or Flynn touch the ball is quite low and a big reason why we suck so badly.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 16, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is a completely ridiculous post!

We all know that players playing well in limited minutes do not play as well or better when given more minutes. Just look at Kevin Love, he…….oh, good point.

#freeAnthonyRandolph

by Django Z on Mar 16, 2011 8:27 AM CDT reply actions  

Do note that

what you say sarcastically is statistically true MOST of the time. That’s what makes the difference between players like MJ vs players like AI. (sorry te repeat myself from earlier)

I think his minutes should be improving gradually. Best guess is he’s learning the system and therefor cant be thrown in for 24 mins a game.

by Wim (Belgium) on Mar 16, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

AI, is that Allen Iverson, Andre Iguodala, Al Jefferson, a mistyped Anthony Tolliver?

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Mar 16, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

allen iverson, my bad

the prime example of some who’s effeciency goes down when he does more.

See “basketball on paper” for more.

by Wim (Belgium) on Mar 16, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep

I think you’re mixed up on this one Wim.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Mar 16, 2011 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

(Double Negative)

“How couldn’t a player like that -not- help this team?”

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 8:47 AM CDT reply actions  

Heh. Perhaps I did.

How could language like that not fail to fall short of deemphasizing the point?

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Randolph...Randolph...

Man, I’d love to see more of Randolph. His versatility, length, and athleticism are tantalizing. However, the problem Rambis has is figuring how to get him on the floor. You don’t pay $4M+ for two centers with the focus of developing them and then significantly cut their playing time for a guy who isn’t comfortable with the offense (and team defensive rotations) and isn’t a true center, especially defensively. He has a build similar to Kevin Durant; if he can work on his outside game in the offseason, I’d love to see him start at the 3 alongside Love. I think he could be light years better than Beas defensively as a SF (assuming Beas doesn’t make big strides in this area in the offseason). He’d also bring more shot blocking and rebounds, based on what I’ve seen so far. As for this year, Randolph is going to be stuck competing with Pek and Darko because there’s no way Rambis is taking significant minutes from Beas, Love, Tolliver, and Wes at the SF/PF positions for a newbie that still has a lot to learn about the Wolves system. Unless someone gets hurt, I just don’t see his minutes increasing too dramatically the rest of the season.

by Asher14 on Mar 16, 2011 8:55 AM CDT reply actions  

Randolph has a super-sized SF build

but his jump shot is scary (to me). I also question whether he could chase around screens on the perimeter for long minutes. In general, I’d like to keep a very good rebounder and shot blocker a little closer to the basket.

If they decide to make him a big part of the team, I think they need to do the following:

  1. Dump Darko
  2. Make Pek their ‘big’ C or find another taller, more defense-oriented guy to be their big C
  3. Have Love defend the opposing C and Randolph the opposing PF as much as possible
  4. When the previous bullet doesn’t work due to a very big, very skilled C, put in the ‘big’ C and have Love defend PF

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Mar 16, 2011 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yup.

The 4/5 rotation should have Randolph/Love as the starters, Tolliver/Pek as the backups, and Darko in Europe.

by hopps on Mar 16, 2011 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed

Ideally, Darko could be the Big C and be satisfied and motivated to play a much more focused role.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 16, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please, let's never confuse Darko with Laura Linney.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Uhhhh

yeah… good point, but bad arguments for it.

Lines like this:

AR was a good player at Golden State….arguably the 09-10 Warriors’ second best player behind just Corey Maggette…

are not going to help your cause. Nor will leaving out stats which may hurt your argument and only list those which help it.

Reading this actually hurt my eyes.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Mar 16, 2011 9:12 AM CDT reply actions  

LOL me too.

There’s a reason why the kid has had limited minutes for every stop so far.

IMO, I’m pretty sure it’s because he has the height of a C, the weight of a SG, and the skills of a SF. He can’t really match up with anybody. Too weak to guard C’s and PF’s, too big/slow to guard SF.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Mar 16, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he had a SF's shot, now that'd be different.
and the skills of a SF.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Damn, just learned that Nate Dogg passed away last night...

sad. I will now be playing Nate Dogg features for the rest of the day.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Mar 16, 2011 9:22 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

r.i.p. nate

humor = misinformation x seriousness

by big_p.a.w.z. on Mar 16, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

That may be true in the long run

but Pek is one of the reasons we lead the league in TOs. All of those O-fouls are just wasted possessions. It’s a real problem and something he needs to figure out.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 16, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

"he needs to fibure out"

Yep and that’s my less minutes isn’t the answer

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Mar 16, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Randolph/Love and TUP

With only 15 or so games left, shoudn’t we be trying to figure out if Randolph/Love works or not regardless of whether he is the best option? I mean, I realize Rambis is fighting for his job (a fight I hope he loses, by the way), but the future of the team is dependent on finding working combos of these players. Randolph/Love could be that combo. Why not just give it some run and see what happens? We know what Darko brings at this stage- and it is inconsistency and mediocrity. For all the talk about PEK, I have not been impressed. Randolph represents the kind of game that Rambis said he wanted to run. Shouldn’t he be trying it out now?

by All in on the 12-5 on Mar 16, 2011 9:45 AM CDT reply actions  

If Rambis, in fighting for his job, keeps throwing the same punch that opponents counter so easily,

then he’s going to keep getting tagged in the face. Trying new stuff is what’ll save him.

We do have some signs that he can learn to be flexible. He’s given Jonny some P&R stuff lately that’s seemingly new, or so I heard in the games in which Flynn felt more comfortable. He took Love’s minutes leash off. His plays from timeouts have improved somewhat.

Weird stubborn/doctrinaire decisions are still what I expect, from both him and Kahn, though.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

True

Rambis is running a lot more high pick and roll than last year. A LOT more. The other area Rambis (might) deserve credit for is the team defense since the All-Star Break. I’m really surprised that this hasn’t come up more often on this site with so many smart stat folks. The team has really taken their defense to an entirely different level since the all-star break. Whether that’s just an unsustainable trend that’s caused by us running into a bunch of cold-shooting teams or real honest-to-goodness improvement, I don’t know. But I’m just surprised it hasn’t been called out more.

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 16, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rambis has already been fired. It's just not official 'til the season is over and

they hand him a pink slip and a check. When the story came out that Rambis would be fired and Kelvin Sampson would replace him, all Kahn would deny is that the replacement would be Kelvin Sampson. Look for an interim coach next year, maybe one of our own assistants. They’re looking for someone ‘more vocal’, whatever you can get out of that qualification-wise.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's what scares me

If Kahn uses the same criteria in judging basketball coaches as he does basketball players, I honestly think I’d rather keep Rambis. Dance with the devil you know…..

by Rascal Flatts on Mar 16, 2011 9:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, this was precisely the risk in signing Darko this summer

with the all-but-confirmed promised role/touches and minutes. It really wasn’t hard to see that the Wolves were going to pass on acquiring more promising players (Cousins, any number of FAs) and then not play plainly better players (Randolph) once they acquired them to accommodate Darko

Rambis and Kahn are both hitched to Darko now. I’d be impressed if either of them cut bait but I suspect that won’t happen. The weird thing is that the Wolves have what is shaping out to be a competent front court – an elite player in Love and then three players who complement/supplement what he does well in Tolliver Randolph and Pekovic. Not perfect by any stretch but the broad strokes of what a competent front court would look like on a playoff team. And then … there is Darko.

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 9:47 AM CDT reply actions  

Enes Kanter

I’ve seen him play one game, and I really know nothing about him. But I kind of think Enes Kanter might be the final part of what could be a championship frontcourt.

Marc Spears article on Kanter

"From what the international scouts say, he’s the top big man coming out. He’s like a taller Al Horford(notes). He can pick and pop, and score inside. He can pretty much fit into any system for any team that needs a center doesn’t matter if they’re a half-court or running team."

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

In case it needed clarification...

Darko would not be a member of that Championship frontcourt.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

So . . . he's a member

of that Championship backcourt?

Only four more months until the lockout begins!

by PoorDick on Mar 16, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Classic PoorDick

But seriously, Kanter doesn’t seem that bad. We could do worse than drafting a legitimate center this year.

btw, this draft is so crazy. At this moment, the following people are still in the running to be the first pick overall…

- Kyrie Irving
- Scary Perry Jones
- Jared Sullinger
- Derrick Williams
- Harrison Barnes
- Enes Kanter
- Jonas Valanciunas
- Terrence Jones

That is 8 people!

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

And if I were in the front office...

JIMMER!!

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Mar 16, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Looks like a sixth-man, instant points guy to me (which is OK)

but I wouldn’t use a top 5 for him.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was joking about taking him #1 overall.

But I think Fredette is the next Steph Curry, to be honest.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Mar 16, 2011 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

as many TO's? LOL

I hope not.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I crown thee

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 5:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kanter...

does sound intriguing. I think there’s some story in there about him outplaying Jared Sullinger at a camp or tournament, last summer. Considering how good Sullinger is, right now, that is worth noting. If he’s a true 5, that could be a good pick if he’s still available when we pick. Plus, he’s a Coach Cal recruit, which these days almost automatically means he has NBA upside.

by Andy G on Mar 16, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

It was the Nike Hoop Summit last April

Not sure how different he is from Love.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Mar 16, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he has a reliable low-post game and can defend centers...

(I have no idea) he’s quite different in two important ways. Darko has one of those two down, and falls way short on the other.

by Andy G on Mar 16, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kanter

Here’s a quote from the draft express player page…

Kanter’s offensive game appears to have expanded from his days with Fenerbahce. In addition to the incredible feel for scoring in the post that caught the attention of scouts years ago, he’s now capable of stepping to out the high-post and knocking down shots with solid consistency. His shot is on the flat side, but he showed range out to the college three-point line and could develop into a very reliable pick-and-pop threat.

Defensively, Kanter had some excellent possessions in practice, coming up with some blocks by being a step ahead of the play and contesting shots with his positioning, rather than his athleticism. His body helps him fight for position on the block, and his physical nature allowed him to deny penetration when his man attempted to take him off the dribble. Once the shot goes up, Kanter does a nice job of sealing off his man and pursuing the ball. Though his ability to rebound outside of his area wasn’t as apparent as it was in junior play, he’s still, more often than not, the player coming down with the ball in a crowd.

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Enes-Kanter-5168/#ixzz1GmqN4yob
http://www.draftexpress.com

It looks like he might measure out somewhat similar to Pekovic, which I’m fine with. I think overall he would match up quite well with Love, especially as a combination of Love, Kanter, Randolph, and Tolliver.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Am I right in understanding that Kantner

hasn’t played competitive basketball in two seasons?

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's an understatement to say it's "not ideal"...

But it’s not like he’s that much worse off than Kyrie Irving. Kanter can at least practice…so there’s that!

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did Kanter really miss the season before this one as well?

I did not realize that.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well he played HS ball last year

But I am not sure how often he played etc. He tried to go to multiple schools but future opponents refused to play them as Kanter had already played pro-ball. AFAIK, he is playing nowhere right now. I am assuming he is at a hoop academy like IMG but …

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tom-AY-to Tom-AH-to

In conclusion, you say “not playing competitive basketball,” I say “less tread on the tires!”

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Heh

I believe “more tread on the tires” would be more apt for what you’re trying to say here.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Mar 16, 2011 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm thinking long term...

Check out Perkins…He’s breaking down.

Right???

Right????

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes but

more tread is usually a good thing for tires….

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Mar 18, 2011 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily a bad thing...

I’d take 2 Loves over what we’ve been pairing with him this year.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Mar 16, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Kanter will help much

I think, especially if you keep Love where he is, you need to have a guy who’s got reach and athleticism opposite of him. Otherwise you just end up with Love/Al Jefferson again.

And I also have doubts that Kanter is a heavy minutes player in the league as well. The couple of times I’ve seen him play, he’s struck me more as a low post specialist like Pekovic or Craig Smith. Position by committee rarely works well….we really need to get a guy who can play 35+ minutes at center every night and do it at a high level

by Oceanary on Mar 16, 2011 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

His name and description

remind me too much of Kosta Koufos.

by Dumbhead62 on Mar 16, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think we’re stretching the definition of “elite” more than a little here.

by Klobs on Mar 16, 2011 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hasn't he been sick?

thats the reason for the limited minutes in the last week…expect him to get more and more playing time down the stretch.

Kneejerk

Loisaidabasketballclub.blogspot.com
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Mar 16, 2011 9:48 AM CDT reply actions  

I think you'll find it's not going to change much

As others have said, the wagon is hitched to Darko

by Oceanary on Mar 16, 2011 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe we can send him back home to Euroleague. Must be able to get something for him.

I mean, even the believers don’t believe anymore. Whether it’s physical, or mental, or a combo,
this young man is not getting better.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

if he could just hit the 5 - 7 foot hook

it would open so many things up for him, and make him a solid 18-22 minute a game Center. Start the Game and Half with 7-8 minutes each then head to the bench, play more depending on match ups, unbelievably he’s no Luc Longley.

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if Darko is a back-to-Europe-for-good candidate if there’s a long lockout.

Loisaidabasketballclub.blogspot.com
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Mar 17, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah...

that and AR has been playing mostly in garbage minutes, so his numbers aren’t against the best competition. I love AR and can’t stand Darko, but comparing the two without mention of who is guarding them is a little careless

REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.

by uofmike on Mar 16, 2011 9:57 AM CDT reply actions  

Great sig

I’ve heard the first Richardson line mentioned many times, but it is much funnier when you read the second too.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Mar 16, 2011 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

lol

I laughed pretty hard the first time I read it. I wish I knew if he was serious or not

REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.

by uofmike on Mar 16, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hilarious.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Prove this assertion about "garbage time" using popcornmachine.

Glancing over the various gameflows there, it looks to me like Randolph has played the same mix of minutes (first and second quarters vs. end-of-blowout time) as anyone else.

In terms of who’s guarding him, I’m looking over games like Dallas, or Detroit, or Philadelphia, and not particularly seeing this.

In a larger sense it’s definitely the “backups always match up with backups, so their performance is discounted” argument that’s “careless.” Over the course of a season that doesn’t hold up. I’m not at all sure it does in this very narrow case of fewer minutes, either.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

basically every game he’s had roughly 20mins, has a been a blowout. The only exception was the Philly game where he was going against Haws and Speights, but that was still and 11 point loss

REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.

by uofmike on Mar 16, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Like I said, I glance over the Popcorn machine flows and I'm not won over by this.

Ailuridae a step down, here, gives you the general argument. I’m saying I’ve looked at the gameflows, and don’t see it there either.

Be open to a counterargument that isn’t vapor, though.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

It is a useful kludge for people who don't want to admit what the facts demonstrate

I’ve offered the same notion to everyone making the starters versus starters claim since time eternal. Do the work, look at ten games of the Wolves and then calculate how much each starter is playing opposite the other starter and each bench player is against each bench player and you’ll see pretty quickly that there is no “there” there. But some people really don’t want the scales to come off their eyes.

It’s pretty simple Randolph is playing better than Darko because he is a much better player than Darko. This was largely known before the season. Nothing we have seen here indicates otherwise.

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

look guys

I said I’m in favor of AR over Darko, but I’m simply saying I see him playing most of the pointless garbage time when you’re not getting the best effort or facing the best players and his usage is more towards letting him do what he wants, not necessarily running within the offense.

After looking at your popcorn, it proves my point. He has had 19+ minutes 4 times with us and 3 of the 4 were total blowouts were he played the entire 4th quarter in 2 of them, and the last 9 minutes of the other… I love what the kid can do, but those stats are definitely skewed

REPORTER: What do you think is happening to the team?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: The ship be sinking.
REPORTER: How far can it sink?
MICHAEL RAY RICHARDSON: Sky's the limit.

by uofmike on Mar 16, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

And yet what you're saying has nothing to do with looking at where A.R. played in each game.

Saying someone played in a bad loss doesn’t exactly set him aside from the rest of the Minnesota roster on any given night.

In order to make this case, you need to look at something like this → the game flow against Washington – and figure out whether Randolph is really only playing against backups and in blowout situations. In that particular case, it sure looks like Randolph was playing against JaVale McGee in the second. Doesn’t it? And then again at the end of the 3rd and the beginning of the 4th.

I’m not trying to beat you, here, but you’re mostly making an assumption about this. There are ways of checking, and they’re more interesting than that.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was big on Darko coming into the year. Thought he had showed some potential last year but I’m starting to think the guy just doesn’t have it. Well not that he doesn’t have it he just doesn’t have the heart to play basketball. He has a ton of talent he just doesn’t have the work ethic to go along with it.

Hopefully Randolph will start the last couple of games.

by Skoaldybi on Mar 16, 2011 10:13 AM CDT reply actions  

The kid's got talent for sure

But all the jumpshots, and the fact that he likes to handle the ball….I bet you that would get real old if it was happening during parts of the game that actually mattered.

He had that one assist where he drove the baseline and made a Flynn-like jump pass, and it actually worked. That was pretty cool, but I can’t see that kind of decision making being sustainable.

by SeaWolf on Mar 16, 2011 11:11 AM CDT reply actions  

I actually really like Randolph handling the ball

He looks very capable doing it, and it really ignites the break. I’m less fearful of him getting the ball taken away when he’s pushing it upcourt than I am with Jonny.

The jumpers I’m not as crazy about.

by Dumbhead62 on Mar 16, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Our offense runs through darko

How would it be bad if it instead ran somebody who knows what to do with a basketball?

by domesticllama on Mar 16, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

If, for example, it ran through Randolph in the high post, KG-under-Flip style, once in a while.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or if it ran through a player

on any short list for most efficient scorer in the league? Oh yeah, he has “short arms” or something?

But yes, Randolph would be preferable in the pinch post to Darko

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, well, Love is *such* a poor passer.

And his turnover percentage is all the way up at 11.2%. Much inferior option to Darko.

(Do I need to add the percentage symbol? Nah.)

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good post...

All of the averages make legitimate sense. The only part you can’t average out from any of the centers’ games is whether or not they play defense, and AR, my friend, does not play very good defense. He has the potential to be a brutal defender underneath, but it’s not quite there yet. That’s why we’re not playing him too much. (And he doesn’t know the offense, and God forbid Kurt Rambis plays someone that doesn’t know his offense!)

by Jonah Steinmeyer on Mar 16, 2011 11:40 AM CDT reply actions  

From Britt Robson's

power rankings.

The team’s latest reclamation project, Anthony Randolph, like Darko Milicic and Michael Beasley before him, is exhibiting the art of teasing with talent while displaying the warts — in Randolph’s case, a total lack of court sense — that made him available in the first place.

by Madison Dan on Mar 16, 2011 11:46 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm not really a fan of comparing Darko and Randolph or Darko and Beasley

Darko was a veteran who there was little reason to believe would be any better than he had been and he had been markedly below average. Beasley and Randolph have both demonstrated to be average to quite good and there is still a reasonable possibility of further development. I’m not a Britt guy but I prefer this zinger:

And in the last two Wolves-Warriors matchups, Jonny Flynn has six points, six rebounds, nine assists and six turnovers, while Stephen Curry — whom Minnesota overlooked in the 2009 draft in order to take Flynn — has 57 points, 20 rebounds, eight assists and three turnovers.

Sometimes I wonder whether Curry/Flynn or Cousins/Wes will be the defining “Roy/Foye” moment of David Kahn’s first and last chance to run an NBA team. Then I think to myself: can’t they both qualify? Can’t Kahn in two off seasons equal the largest draft day blunder of McHale’s tenure twice!

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I kept that last part out on purpose.

But I’m happy to have someone else light that match.

by Madison Dan on Mar 16, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good thought here

I’m not really a fan of comparing Darko and Randolph or Darko and Beasley

Though even before this season it seems more true for Randolph than Beasley, and even more so now, where Beasley has had 3 seasons of consistent playing time and really hasn’t moved forward one iota. I was not a fan of the Beasley acquisition on the theory that 1) I didn’t think he’d get much better than he was, 2) I didn’t want him to be used as the alpha scoring player on the team because I didn’t think he was good enough, and if he isn’t in that role he’s not of much use, and 3) Therefore I thought it would waste the team’s time for them to figure out that he is not the answer.

Randolph, on the other hand, despite coming into the NBA with a less obviously impressive set of skills and accomplishments than Beasley, has essentially been just as good a player in much less consistent minutes and usage. It seems to me that a front court with Love, Randolph, Pekovic, and Tolliver is not necessarily the best in the league, but it has some possibilities I think.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Mar 16, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah there is a lot to unpack there

but I tried to write it in such a way that I was indicating that Darko was different than both Beasley and Randolph but that Randolph and Beasley weren’t really comparable either. I don’t care for Britt – he makes these sorts of false equivalences a lot. If someone was sure they were seeing glimpses last year with Darko that is a good reason to not trust things those folks “observe” going forward. He was last year the same player he had more or less always been before that and that he has demonstrated to be again this year.

Randolph isn’t really teasing me with his talent. He reminds me a lot of Eddie Griffin on the court. Eddie had his warts. for sure but he also broadly useful unlike say, Darko

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Eddie Griffin is a good comp

The guy you want Randolph to be is Marcus Camby, but he just isn’t.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Mar 16, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well in fairness to Randolph

Marcus Camby was about to match up with Travis Knight @ UConn when he was the age Randolph is now. I don’t think he’ll be like Camby either (Camby who is a quite interesting FA to the front court).

Camby is a weird case anyway – one season TOR was walking him out there as their SF and he needed Ewing to go down for anyone to give him a real shot at holding down the C position.

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, it's true that Camby was viewed as something of a disappointment early

mostly because he didn’t dominate offensively. It took a while for people to realize that what he does is very valuable. Of course health has been a consistent problem.

I say SHONDA you say WOLVES" SHONDA! WOLVES!

by Eric in Madison on Mar 16, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

imo, camby took awhile to get strong enough...

To bang with most NBA bigs. He was soft until he was in his late 20s.

by Are we cursed? on Mar 16, 2011 11:53 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

The thing that's unique about Randolph

style-wise, is how he yanks down rebounds and just takes off with the ball the other direction. I love seeing him do that, it seems to lead to positive things.

I haven’t thought about Eddie Griffin for a while, he was another funky player.

by Dumbhead62 on Mar 16, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Cause he can dribble up court so much faster than a passed ball can travel.

by dropstep on Mar 17, 2011 2:21 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

CAN BEasy and AR play together

I can envision both of them on the court doing dumb stuff simultaneously.
It ain’t pretty.

by WinTheLottery on Mar 18, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

IMO,

There’s a reason he hasnt played many/consistent minutes for 3 teams now. Hopefully it’s not his attitude or work ethic or brains…

I think it’s because he’s mismatched in a bad way. He’s too tall for his skill-set. He can’t be put on the floor as a SF because he can’t guard anybody or handle against other SF’s. He can sometimes be put in at PF but in the long run, he’s too weak to guard them in the post. He can’t play big minutes at C against most of the starting Cs in the league that outweigh him about 70 pounds.

He’s just an awkward combination. Anyway, maybe that explains it. If not, it might just be his lack of work ethic, smarts or a bad attitude if 3 different coaches have all done the same thing.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Mar 16, 2011 12:36 PM CDT reply actions  

3 coaches but maybe not 3 good coaches

Rambis didn’t know how to use Love at first.

The overall issue is that the Wolves still don’t have a C if AR is your best option which he is.

Wolves don’t have a PG, either and Wes at the 2 is just OK.

Wolves desparately need a PG (Rubio hopefully) and a C next season. Convince Darko to go away or trade Pek to make room. Maybe both. Draft a C. Trade for a real C. Whatever.

by ChicagoViking on Mar 16, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

He’s just an awkward combination. Anyway, maybe that explains it. If not, it might just be his lack of work ethic, smarts or a bad attitude if 3 different coaches have all done the same thing.

But the Wolves aren’t picking between playing Randolph and a competent player. They are picking between playing Randolph and a player who the above statement is true times three of four (in terms of the coaches who thought he couldn’t play) in Darko

Broadly I don’t like appeals to authority even if the authorities in this case Nellie and D’Antoni are people I respect. But before this season started three different coaches had thought that Kevin Love didn’t warrant starting minutes. Now, two of the them are confirmed lunkheads and Rambis is all but confirmed but coaches, even very good ones sometimes get it wrong or prefer other options irrationally. Nellie and DÁntoni for instance allotted 2400+ minutes to a player who is on the short list for worst minutes earned/minutes played ration of all time: Al Harrington. Nellie also played “Al Harrington before Al Harrington” Antoine Walker huge minutes in DAL one year completely submarining their team’s chances to win big.

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Excellent Point

It’s true that Randolph often matches up kind of awkwardly on defense, but at least he produces positive things on the other side of the ball. We don’t have any better options to trot out right now.

I think his ideal role on a good team (and this is assuming he develops) is a 25-30 mpg off the bench guy who comes in and injects energy. I think he could be a game-changer in that role. I’m usually a fan of having pretty set rotations, but I think because of his unique talents and deficits he’s an ideal guy to play more or less on a game to game basis based on the matchups and how he’s producing. I’m not talking about ever giving him super low minutes, but I think his minutes could range from 20-40 on any given night in my scenario.

For now though, he’s absolutely one of our best options and he should be on the floor a lot.

by Dumbhead62 on Mar 16, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

True.

I’d take Randolph over Darko anyday for what he brings to the table overall. But at least Darko woudn’t make me hide my head in shame when AR has to attempt to guard legit C’s.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Mar 16, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Off the topic

but Grant Hill’s response to Jalen Rose’s “Uncle Tom” comment in the Fab Five documentary is definitely worth a read: http://nyti.ms/hqxfYE

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Mar 16, 2011 1:27 PM CDT reply actions  

Has nobody ever *read* the novel "Uncle Tom"?

That character doesn’t fit the way people use his name. The guy isn’t a sellout even by today’s terms, and when Stowe wrote that novel, no way did that apply. Wikipedia describes him this way:

Throughout the book, far from allowing himself to be exploited, Tom stands up for his beliefs and is grudgingly admired even by his enemies.

The novel was huge in the 19th century, a huge rallying point for the opposition to slavery. Is this one of those things where our problems with race after political violence killed reconstruction have done things like make John Brown into a crazy man? We’re seeing “Uncle Tom” through warped glass, I think – demonizing the wrong figure.

(Grant Hill has a lot of class. A Lot.)

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

("Uncle Tom's Cabin" is the title. Pardon me.)

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd bet that a good percentage of the people who use that term have no idea

abuot its origin.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Mar 16, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Which is a real shame.

By lots of different accounts, Uncle Tom’s Cabin was second only to the Bible in 19th century American publishing.

We have a weird thing with historical amnesia in this country.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Mar 16, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ta-Nehisi Coates

Has an interesting take on that part of the documentary:

I haven’t finished watching the Fab Five doc, but it’s really sad that Rose’s Uncle Tom comment is overshadowing the piece. What I saw was excellent. But more to the point, I didn’t think Rose’s point was that Grant Hill was—objectively—an Uncle Tom. The point was that as a 19-year old kid, who had significant anger toward his own father, significant anger about growing up poor, he saw Grant Hill as a Tom and the Duke program as targeting Toms.
That’s very different than making an actual, literal case that, say, Hubert Davis or Elton Brand are Uncle Toms. Rose is dismissive of Christian Laettner, but he actually says he only felt that way, “until I got on the floor with him.” I’m not sure why that’s wrong. I could fill a blog post about the objectionable thoughts I had at 19. It almost gives the thing too much credit to say people are “taking it out of context.” From what I can tell, folks heard “Duke” and “Uncle Tom” and then stopped listening.

And yes, he corrected himself after saying Hubert Davis was a Dookie.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Mar 16, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

TNH took it the way I did.

I kind of slipped away when he had a bunch of guest bloggers. I need to get back to reading him.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Mar 16, 2011 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

The thing about his blog is

that it’s almost more about the community than it is about him. He’s a great writer and I love the variety of the things he posts about. But aside from Canis Hoopus, I’ve never seen a more vibrant and intelligent collection of commenters. I’m not a member, but I learn more in the comments of that blog than I do from most blogs themselves. Really interesting place.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Mar 16, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mostly I agree,

but I’m convinced that his community is a direct effect of his thoughtfulness. He’s a so-so writer, but his demeanor is so even-handed, and his consideration is so wise, that the conversations following his posts can’t help but be open-minded and thoughtful.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Mar 17, 2011 12:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well put

He’s great at eliciting deeper thought from his “horde”, and moderating the discussion. His thoughtfulness and ability to relate somewhat disparate concepts to each other are really useful in developing and shaping discussion among such a large group. His greatest strength might be as a moderator, actually.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Mar 17, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's a fantastic book

Tom was the hero of the book, but it was his quiet perseverance and faith in the next life that made him the hero. He didn’t stand up to The Man, which is where the term comes from.

by Pedro Munoz is fast on Mar 16, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice response from Grant...

but the basic message of Rose’s is legitimate, even if the Uncle Tom usage was off-base. Duke represents a culture that inner-city black kids resent. I believe Rose, in the documentary, even admitted that he was jealous of Grant Hill. It’s understandable from his perspective, but also understandable why Hill would come to his and his alma matter’s defense.

What I found interesting was that Jimmy King was such a prominent part of that message, including an appearance (with Rose) on the ESPN2 morning show to defend it. King, as I remember from the book, comes from a two-parent, middle class family in Plano, Texas. He almost chose Kansas which is not Duke, but hardly UNLV, either.

by Andy G on Mar 16, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

It really depends on whether we're talking about what Rose thought back then, or what he thinks now.
“For me Duke was personal… Schools like Duke didn’t recruit players like me…” and then he talks about resenting his own background “moreso than I resented him.”

“I looked at it as, ‘They are who the world accepts, and we are who the world hates.’”

When he starts talking about his attitude now, that’s a little different for me. Hill’s response sure reads like Rose was saying all those things right now. “Duke recruits only,” not “recruited.”

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 16, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rose also said

That they would recruit his kids now. Duke is all about “perception” and Rose talked about that also. Paraphrasing – "They don’t want kids they have to worry about “selling” their rings or paraphenalia. Duke is a private school that recruits private school kids." From my viewpoint, I think Duke is losing out on a number of players, but can you argue the results the Coach K has gotten?

I also would like to remember all the stupid BS we said when we were 18/19 years old. I sure wouldn’t want to review that now or any time in the future.

Timberwolves - NBA champs 2013!
(used with permission - Wolf in MO)

by frankenhoops on Mar 16, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Duke can recruit the kids that are "good kids" and skilled

most school can just get the skilled ones

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Mar 16, 2011 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

You are a little soul carrying a corpse. --Epictetus

by Cynical Jason on Mar 16, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hmm...

I actually think Grant Hill missed the point here. Jalen was talking about his attitude towards the Duke players back when he was a youngster at Michigan. He never said that Grant Hill is an Uncle Tom, he said they viewed him that way (all questions about accuracy in usage of the term aside).

He could have (and should have) said that was a foolish perspective, but the topic was why they had such an intense distaste for Duke back then. In fact, he even talked about how he was jealous of Grant Hill’s good family background, and how he had a chip on his shoulder because Duke never recruited him. He didn’t make it sound entirely rational.

I thought that some admiration of that Duke team actually poked through in some of their comments.

by Dumbhead62 on Mar 16, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great read. What a baller.

Can we just offer Hill the Player/Coach role?

by Tollysnipes on Mar 17, 2011 2:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wouldn't that be great?

On board: me.

"Those things about which we cannot theorize, we must narrate." – Umberto Eco

by feral on Mar 17, 2011 8:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Somethings gotta give

2/3 logjam to a 4/5 logjam. Latteral moves and redundant player acquisitions are starting to piss me off. Can’t we just get someone, other than Love, that is head and shoulders above the rest in their position? Maybe I’m just in a bad mood today, but I think I’m finally losing hope…

by 612TimL on Mar 16, 2011 1:37 PM CDT reply actions  

I think it is because the stock market sucks lately.

Maybe we need a Dow Jones indicator for Woofs fandom

by timmuggs on Mar 16, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

we need an upgrade at PG desperately.

 We have nobody who can break down the opposing defense nor do we have anyone who can set up other players.

While we’re at it, we could also use an SG who can score consistently.

While I get it that Beasley and Randolph are not perfect players, and that Darko plays like a giant pu$$y, I think our backcourt deficiencies are our biggest problems right now.

by Are we cursed? on Mar 17, 2011 12:28 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Oceanary & Darko

Everyone has hopes for AR. But using stats accumulated in a few games of garbage time proves nothing. You could just as easily say that in the limited amount of time he has played, he has looked okay but not like the guy he was in Golden State. My hunch is we’re better off hoping Pek gets his fouls under control than AR turns into a Camby-like player we can slot next to Love.

That being said, Darko is a headcase of the first order. Approximately a month and a half ago, the guy had a PER of 14. He was getting slammed for the all the turnovers, sure, but he was a hell of a lot more productive than he is now. Since then, what’s happened? Rambis has given him a lot fewer touches (because of the turnovers and because we’re running more pick and rolls) and his usage has gone down. And what does Darko do? Aside from the Al Jeff game, he pretty much packs it in.

The fact is he has given us solid stretches of competent play for the price but there is definitely something to the idea that he just stops caring if isn’t “used right.”

by Vlade on Mar 16, 2011 3:40 PM CDT reply actions  

Look: He's been here less than a month.

He was traded on Feb 22. Today is March 16.
He said he needs time to get back into playing shape. He played in what – 17 games for NY
all last season. He’s played in 10 games here already, at double the PT.

You’re getting all jazzed-up over nothing.
Looks like just another excuse to bash the coach.
Sometimes the agenda is just too transparent.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:14 PM CDT reply actions  

Darko was brought here under similar circumstances, last year...

and had the starting center position handed to him. He was (to my eyes) in worse physical condition than Randolph is now.

Darko started when Kevin Love did not.

I think it’s fair to question why Randolph isn’t playing more, right now.

by Andy G on Mar 16, 2011 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

You'll also find that if you take just about any 10 game sample of Darko or Pek's this season...

….the results are more or less the same. Darko scores and rebounds inefficiently while committing a ton of turnovers, Pek does nothing BUT score while committing a ton of turnovers and fouls

by Oceanary on Mar 16, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Randolph also had the flu for almost 2 weeks along with Lazar, which I didn't mention.

(and Oceanary didn’t mention, either)

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem with this whole post's argument

is that AR is playing only in matchups where he matches up well. Darko starts against everyone, the top centers in the league. They only put AR in against scrubs or backup centers or shorties. So of course AR’s numbers are better. If you started AR against all of Darko’s competition, AR would get murdered.

by wolver on Mar 16, 2011 4:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Actually this isn't true

league wide and can shown to be untrue pretty easily.

People tried to make this argument about Love’s gaudy production when he was a back-up. If playing against back-ups increases a player’s per minute production it has never been demonstrated with any rigor. That per minute production doesn’t fall with increased playing time has been demonstrated though. Like I said upthread this is simply a crutch for people uncomfortable admitting a player they like or a player starting on their team is much worse than another player or a reserve on their team/

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Love vs. AR

Actually matchups do matter but not in the simplistic way that it is sometimes argued (I don’t take Wolver to be making that argument). Love’s numbers weren’t going to get worse because he is a classic 4. Playing him against other starting 4s wouldn’t cause him to be at a height, weight, etc., disadvantage. Playing AR against the Dwight Howards and Andrew Bynums as a 5 as opposed to an energy 4 off the bench will definitely cause a drop off in production because he would be at a marked physical disadvantage. A position a player is forced to play matters when he is ill-suited for that position. We have some pretty good data on this (see Beasley, Michael). My favorite example is AK-47 who has been miscast as a 3 by the Jazz for years…

by Vlade on Mar 16, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

How does this explain hoe Love is even more effective when he plays 5

Of the fact that Randolph has started many NBA games and has not only often played center he has been the only conventional big on the court.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoan01/splits/2009/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/randoan01/splits/2010/

Stop the reaching and excuse-making. Randolph is producing better than Darko because he is a much, much better player. That’s at Center or PF that’s against reserves or starters. Darko is known sub-mediocrity. We have 2000 minutes to suggest Randolph is not. That’s it.

by Ailuridae on Mar 16, 2011 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would love to play for your basketball team

Where positions don’t matter. And we ignore visual evidence like the fact that Rambis only plays Love at the 5 against teams without a true center. (I also love that you conveniently ignores Love’s pretty terrible on/off court defensive stats at the 4 – I guess he just magically morphs into a better defender when playing against bigger guys at the 5!! Cool how that works).

I wasn’t defending Darko. I’m only pointing out he is the only true 5 on the roster.

by Vlade on Mar 16, 2011 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm no fan of Darko anymore, but stringbean AR (love his ability) will be pushed around on the block

pretty easily. Mark it. You start that kid at C and he’s going tom pick up a ton of fouls when he has to defend against opposing bigs. If Rambis starts him and he gets beat up, first thing that you guys do is question his move inserting AR into a place he’s not ready for. As one poster said, “damned if you do, damned if you don’t”. There must be a reason this guy is bouncing around the NBA, and I suspect that his ability and his game and his physique are all mismatches in one person – and that means it will be really tough to slot him. He looks like a SF without an outside shot, or a PF without the bulk and strength. He’s no NBA center, unless he’s a back-up. He’s no 30 minute man. He’ll be fouled out in the 1st quarter because he won’t be able to stand his ground and he’ll have to make up for the mismatch by hacking and reaching.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Best scenario - back-up @ PF and C.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Free Anthony Tolliver! At least on April 6th please…

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!

by Omaha Sun on Mar 16, 2011 4:42 PM CDT reply actions  

You think AR15 is an adequate replacement for A.T.?

Based on what? Darko looked great too, before they signed him. He even looked dominating in
some games this year. I hope you get a better sample of this guy before you pull the trigger.
I mean, he’s fascinating to me, too, but the eye can be fooled. First things that strike me is that
this kid has no outside shot, but he likes to take them. He’s no guard, but he likes to take over
the guard’s job during a game. He’s 6’11, with a good wingspan, but he’s a flyweight against cruiser-weights. He has a niche, I’m sure, but there are red flags, too.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's like the chicks some guys want to marry - eye candy.

I do hope he does help this team. I hope he is more than flash.

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh. A shill for his team, not the Wolves?

"a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma."

by BaylorWest on Mar 16, 2011 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's

A Creighton fan and a Suns fan.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Mar 16, 2011 5:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I do like Randolph more than the other guys

But he has picked up a lot of cheap rebounds and points in garbage time against the other teams weakest players not giving a lot of effort. The Indiana game about a week ago when we blew em out was a perfect example of that. He got a double double in the 4th quarter alone playing against a team that mailed it in. So the numbers are a little fudged.

by waldo11teen on Mar 16, 2011 10:27 PM CDT reply actions  

In defense of Pek:

He gets down the court so fast and sets up well, that a decent point guard could spoon feed him a fair amount of points on the break in possessions that end up being three second violations now. He goes, gets inside position, realizes that they can’t hit him for the easy lay up and has to bail, sometimes not quick enough.

Not the source of all his three seconds, but a contributing factor.

by Tollysnipes on Mar 17, 2011 2:56 AM CDT reply actions  

yup

It’s fun to watch Pek obliterate people in the post. He shoves grown men out of the way as if they were Kate Moss or Anthony Randolph. And, while doesn’t get the ball in deep scoring position, at least he is getting one helluva workout.

by SeaWolf on Mar 17, 2011 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

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