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Final Grades

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I hate EPSN's obsession with the Miami Heat. I hate how Heat stories become headlines that take precedence over everything else. I hate seeing a string of 20 straight Tweets from Michael Wallace and Tom Haberstroh on ESPN's RSS feed every night the Heat play. I hate that the Heat have a whole page (called the Heat Index) that does nothing but exclusively pimp the Heat, rain or shine. And I hate that a staple feature of the Heat Index is grades for the Heat after every Heat game.

And it's not that I hate the Heat, or Wallace or Haberstroh, or ESPN in general. I understand why they have it set up the way they do. It's smart business, it's smart promotion and advertisement. It's just an overload, and it gets obnoxious after a while.

Still, there is an elegance of simplicity in the grades idea. So let's steal it and apply it do our dear Pups. And, uh...don't expect this one to go up on the fridge, kids...

Star-divide

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Michael Beasley: B-

Beasley was essentially the player he's always been this season. He's a gunner. He's an enigma. He's obviously extremely talented and able to do incredible things on the court, but he doesn't do them consistently.

Beas did battle nagging hip and ankle injuries throughout most of the season, so he gets a little leeway for that. He also came on strong at the end of the season, averaging 21-6-3 in April. Was it because Love was out? Was it because he got healthy? Was it because Rambis gave up and let him do his own thing? Was it just a fluke? Hard to say, but I do feel that the team could have gotten that kind of play from him for most of the year with a smarter coach and a more stable environment.

Ultimately, more than anyone else on the team, Beasley "hit the marks". Not overwhelmingly good, not overwhelmingly bad. He had a lot of really bad turnovers, but otherwise was decent...aka bland...across the board. One of the Wolves' better players for the season, but middling in a league-wide sense.

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Wayne Ellington: C-

Ellington was probably the hardest player for me to try and summarize.

On one hand, he does some really good things on the court, and looks like a very solid player. He's got a high BBIQ, he hustles, he makes shots. He made some big improvements on his ability to put the ball on the deck this year (although he struggled to capitalize on that in a big way) But he seems to be one of the Wolves more competent players, and a guy that would be most likely to play a role on a really good team.

But looking at some of the comparison statistics, Ellington was really bad. His FG% dropped to a mere 40% this season, and both his PER and WS/48 declined as well. He finished with a negative on court/off court total and one of the team's worst simple ratings. And his production by position comparison seems to indicate he's a major defensive liability.

It's puzzling to me, because he's a guy who should be able to play well in just about any circumstance. And I don't see that as him being a "he looks the part" type of thing. I feel that if you were to put him on a team like the Celtics, Spurs or Magic, his numbers would tell a radically different story....one that I feel would be much more accurate to the player he actually is.

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Jonny Flynn: D-

I'm giving him a break for coming off major surgery. I fully expect this to cause a firestorm in the comments section. That's fine.

More than anything, I wonder what went on in Jonny's head this year. We know he can play better than he did. Last season wasn't a beacon of hope, by any means, but it was still much, much better than this season. It seems like there was more than the injury at play here, and knowing what a disaster the coaching was and how much of a circus the team was in general, I don't know if I'd put everything on Jonny's shoulders.

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Lazar Hayward: Incomplete

I don't think he played enough to make a judgement. He saw the court in just 42 of 82 games, and only played more than 10 minutes in 17 of those 42. He's a tough kid with some talent and a scoring touch that seems likely to improve with time. But he spent 9/10ths of the season on the bench, and the times he was able to get off it were more about Rambis' inexplicable decision making than anything else.

At the very least, he would have needed to play in 20 more games for me to feel comfortable saying "we knew who Lazar was this year", and even then, making that sort of statement about a guy getting bits and pieces of playing time still seems unfair.

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Wesley Johnson: C-

This could have been a 'D', but eh...it was his rookie year. I don't want to grade him like he's an experienced hand, nor without acknowledgment of the situation he was put it (read: who his first NBA coach was), nor in comparison to someone on a different team. He didn't draft himself.

I think Wes was put in a bad situation, being asked to create shots rather than just make shots. More than anyone on the team, I think Wes would benefit simply from playing a different role. Get him moving off the ball. Get him running of screens and cutting to the hoop. I feel like Wes was asked to be Kobe when he's built to be Rip Hamilton.

In terms of his game, the major, major weakness is he doesn't get to the free throw line. A lot gets made about his lack of handles, but there are ways to do without that. Again, Rip Hamilton. Or Reggie Miller. Two guys who create(d) shots for themselves by moving without the ball (and two guys who excel(ed) at getting to the line without needing to pound the deck). Get to the line, young man.

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Kevin Love: A+

I have to say, Love completely changed my outlook on his potential with that three point shot he added this year. Maybe it didn't impact his PER or per/36 that much, but it definitely impacted what kind of player he became. Instead of trying to get his looks in a 12 foot box under the hoop where he'd always be battling guys taller and longer than himself, he can now make the towers play his game, drawing them 20+ feet out from the paint (and out of their comfort zones). That's huge.

Love had a historic season in a number of different ways, be it his combination of rebounds and 3ptsMade, his 31-31 game, his consecutive double-double streak...everything. Is he an 'A' player...a guy who can go iso against anyone in crunch time and get buckets? No. But S-n-P nailed it on the head last year....Love is revolutionary as an A1. His skillset is truly unique...no one in the league can do everything he can as a single player.

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Darko Milicic: D

Again, I don't want to grade a player based on someone else's decision making.

And....well, it was Rambis' decision to run the offense through him. Darko needs to dunk more. He needs to box out more. He needs to secure the ball, not tap at it, and make his layups. But he's not putting the ball in his own hands.

The Wolves are 19-89 since Darko arrived. He is who he always was, which isn't bad for a 25mpg defensive presence, but is terrible as a 25mpg offensive linchpin.

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Nikola Pekovic: D

Pekovic scores really well in the low post....and that's pretty much it. He's a one trick pony. And while that one trick is pretty damn good, the lack of range in his game makes it really really hard to see how he'll make any sort of appreciable impact in the league.

Like Darko, Pek struggled mightily with turnovers, although his were largely of the 3 second/offensive foul variety. He also struggled with fouls in general (to put it mildly...) leading the entire league in fouls/48 (9.8), and more troubling still, not showing any improvement on cutting them down as the year went on. He also tallied just 27 assists the whole season (I mean, c'mon dude...you got out-assisted by Shelden Williams...)

By my eye, Pek's biggest problem seemed to thought he was taller than he really was, had longer arms than he really did, and can jump a lot higher than he actually could. He's a traditional, heavyweight post player who seemed to have problems understanding how much of an athlete's league the NBA is and adjust to it. He's a likable guy, but the team was getting the same thing and more from Craig Smith.

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Anthony Randolph: A

I'm going on record here as saying I really disagree with S-n-P's assessment of Anthony Randolph as a guy who "has some redeeming qualities". Is that all that's going to be said about him? C'mon....

The only think keeping this grade from being of the '+' variety is the short amount of time Randolph has been here. But in that short amount of time, he tore it up. Any way you slice it, Randolph excelled: he averaged 11.7 points and 5.2 rebounds in 20 minutes a night post-trade, which translates to 21-9 per36.

Or, for those more real-time oriented, in games he played at least 20 minutes (13 games, 27mpg), he averaged 18-7. Also in those 13 games, he collected at least 10 rebounds in 5 of them, got to the FT line at least 5 times in 6 of them, shot at least 50% in 10 of them, and scored at least 10 points in 12 of them. So not only was he productive, he was consistent....when he got on the court for real playing time, he produced.

A player who nearly puts up 20-10 in less than 30 minutes isn't someone with "some redeeming qualities". He's a player with a bright future ahead of him. An impact player. A potential All Star. The sad end to the season unfortunately relegated him to an afterthought when he should be talked about as a future building block. He's talented, versatile, athletic, and 20 lbs shy of being exactly the kind of player you'd want opposite of Love in the paint.

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Luke Ridnour: B

Ridnour, sadly, flew as far under the radar as possible for as well as he actually played. There was legitimate concern heading into the season that he was signed due to a fluke 09-10 season, but Ridnour proved the critics wrong with a near-repeat performance.

Ridnour kept his FG% within distance of last year's career-high mark, and set a new career high in 3pt% by a vast, vast margin (44%, compared to his previous high of 38%) He also kept his assist numbers up, despite the silly system he was asked to "facilitate", and although he had trouble with turnovers, the whole team had problems with that. Ridnour hasn't historically been turnover-prone, so I'm willing to pass that off as mostly not his fault.

He had some questionable shot selection and didn't exactly stand anyone up defensively. But overall, Ridnour was one of the few players on the team that played fairly consistent professional-level basketball. In a season as disasterous as this one, that goes a long, long way in my book.

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Sebastian Telfair: Incomplete

For whatever reason, Bassy played in just 37 games this year. Even stranger, most of that apparently was because Flynn was injured to start the season. Rambis and Flynn don't like each other and Telfair was a better choice as a backup anyway....and yet when Flynn returns, Bassy disappears. If I were to guess, I'd say Kahn was making some command decisions here, but ultimately who knows? It'll give me a headache to try and figure it out, so...

If I were to give Telfair a grade, it'd probably be a B- or C+. Like Beasley, Bassy basically hit his marks. But again....37 games. We haven't seen him on the court since February, and that was only because Jonny was "tired"....or something....

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Anthony Tolliver: B+

Mplax is going to hate me for this, but I stick by what I said earlier: Anthony Tolliver was the second-best Wolf this season. His combination of productiveness, efficiency, teamwork, demeanor, and impact was exceeded only by Kevin Love, and no one came even close to his level of energy and passion.

4th on the team in PER, 2nd in WS/48, 4th in 3pt% (I guess you could say 2nd in this too, since he, Love and Webster are all separated by less than 1%), third in simple rating, and first in net on court/off court. And he left it all on the floor every night. He had a crazy April, averaging 11-8 on 56% shooting. It was almost painful watching him completely sell out for a team that clearly didn't care.

AT is just flat out a pro basketball player. The kind of guy that people go nuts for on contending teams. He's the poster boy for what a player can do when he plays to his strengths and accepts his limitations. Imagine him alongside Tim Duncan. Or KG. Or Dwight Howard. The Wolves were absolutely gifted one when he signed here, and I can only hope the team can turn it around with him still on board.

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Martell Webster: C

I was considering calling this one an incomplete as well, because Webs only played in 46 games. But I decided that he averaged enough minutes in those games that we could call it with some degree of certainty.

For the most part, Webster was another player who was who he's always been. He's a good defender, a great athlete, and a fantastic catch-and-shoot player. Where he struggles is putting the ball on the deck, creating his own shot, and finishing in heavy traffic. I do believe that he can and will improve on those things.

The upside is that he set career highs in both FG% and 3pt%. Early in the year we talked about the oddness of how he historically shot about the same percentage from 2 and 3, and what that indicated about the shots he was taking. This year, not only did he convert on more of his jumpers, but he took more shots from in close, which I think is definitely a big part of his better FG%.

Webster is definitely worth having on the roster. He's a rotation player on a good team, possibly a starter under the right circumstances. Like Wes, I think he could benefit a lot from a system that moves him off the ball and lets him be more of a shot maker.

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Kurt Rambis: F

What else is there to say that hasn't already been said? The system makes no sense. The substitutions make no sense. The press conferences make no sense. He throws his guys under the bus, defends players on other teams, seems to have in inverted sense of who deserves playing time....etc etc etc.

I firmly believe Rambis artificially held this team down this season. Is the roster great? No. But this guy just made everything so much worse. I absolutely believe a competent coach for this team would have meant better individual play and more wins.

 

 

 

 

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David Kahn: D-

There was one thing that saved Kahn from getting and 'F' - he did make some nice trades. As S-n-P said, the Darko and Webster trades were average, the Beasley and Randolph ones were home runs. And you can probably cite Ridnour-for-Sessions (not a straight up trade, but same effect) as a pretty solid deal too.

What drags Kahn down into the basement is he didn't/couldn't get rid of Rambis, and he doesn't get basketball in general. His player assessment technique is questionable, at best. It seems like he makes moves simply to make them, at times. I doubt he holds much respect among other executives in the league, his own team put him on a budget and won't trust him with the roster and....well, let's not kid ourselves. Fred Hoiberg didn't move back to Iowa for the scenery.

Kahn says his job is safe. I'm not so sure. Consider:

1) How can anyone take the Wolves seriously with Kahn in charge?
2) How can anyone take Taylor seriously when he let's Kahn be in charge?
3) How can you keep a guy you don't trust to manage the roster in charge of the roster?

If you don't trust the guy to run the team, it makes absolutely no sense for him to keep running the team. Even in a restricted sense. At best, that's McHale v2.0, where every decision has to be crowd-sourced and debated by committee. It's needlessly complicated and counter-productive.

I'll repeat what I said earlier: Glen Taylor, spend the money to get a legit basketball operation. It will pay for itself.

Comment 215 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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I obviously find dsagreement, but let's hit the highlights, shall we?

Kahn = F

Why, in addition to the points mentioned, Kahn failed miserably based upon his own self-proclaimed goal made at the end of the 2009-10 season: to acquire a veteran “go-to” player who can take the final shot in closely contested battles.

More, why no mention of the complete embarrassment Kahn inflicted on the Wolves franchise with his very public argument with Chris Weber during the Summer League interview. How about his subsequent local radio double-down by calling out Weber for being a jerk? This is no trivial matter. Public relations disasters like this only reinforces the views by columnists that Minnesota is the laughing stock of the NBA.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 1:31 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

It sucks

That your coach would bring the team down so much. It’s just…disappointing.

I agree with everything you said, except for maybe Webster. The guy battled injuries all year long, he deserves an incomplete.

Going forward, I actually like this team. They need to get a proper centre and maybe a veteran wing, but if they went into next season with Rubio/Irving, an upgraded starting centre and a competent coach I think they’d see huge improvements. Maybe not playoffs, but this-year Clippers wouldn’t be a stretch.

by shangrila on Apr 23, 2011 1:34 AM CDT reply actions  

Webster was a disappointment

At best I’d give him an “incomplete” but he underwhelmed even when healthy. Oh, he was light years ahead of most of the roster just for not throwing the ball away as much, but his best moments were in pre-season.

I do believe that Tolliver and Webster were right in their critique of the team:

Tolliver has questioned whether all the players had bought into coach Kurt Rambis’ system, an observation Kevin Love echoed earlier this week. Wednesday night both gave their views on the team as the regular season wound down with a 12-game losing streak.

Tolliver’s frustration stems from the team losing the same way too often. Namely, by putting together spurts of good play, but not four quarters of it. He also reiterated a familiar theme.

“My urgency has been the same,” he said. “We just have to try to get more guys on the same page. … We just keep doing the same stuff, and that’s what’s so frustrating. The same mistakes are getting us.”

Webster sounds as if he agrees. His point was that a team filled with so many young players is bound to go through a difficult early period while those youngsters learn what it takes to win in the NBA.

“All young guys want to be the top scorers in the league,” he said. “They don’t understand what it takes to win. You have to let them flush that out. … Just hope they get it out of their systems fast. Then you can move on.”

http://www.startribune.com/sports/119450739.html

Complain all you want about Rambis, but I’ll take the comments by those who put out on the Wolves roster foremost.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 1:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

To be fair,

I can understand why it would be difficult to buy into that particular system.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!

by Omaha Sun on Apr 23, 2011 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wrong

It doesn’t matter what system it is, if you don’t have players pulling in the same direction you fall apart. That is quite evident in the quotes from Webster, Tolliver, and (separately, KLove).

Look, players don’t get to vote on whether one decides to commit to a system or not. But if select players decide for themselves that they aren’t going to row in the same direction, you fall apart.

I think Websters’ comment about “All young guys want to be the top scorers in the league” is indicative of the roster Kahn put together.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 2:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is the result of

bad coaching. Rambis was too laid back with players during games. Not sure if he was worried about too much bitching shutting young players down or what. I give the players a little of the blame but it is the coaching staff’s responsibility to teach the players to be professionals. Judging by Tolliver and Webster’s comments a few of the players still need to figure out what it takes to be a professional night in and night out.

Waiting for Relevancy...

by Bombnuke on Apr 23, 2011 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was just joking Flagrant.

I figured there wasn’t enough Rambis bashing on this site.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!

by Omaha Sun on Apr 23, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for clarifying

It’s tough standing for truth, justice and the American way.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Webster was completely healthy at all this season

Hence, incomplete.

If you’re trying to argue that not buying into the system, not the system itself, was the problem then you’re wrong, plain and simple. Rambis’ defence clearly didn’t work but he refused to change it. Running the offence through Darko didn’t work, but he didn’t change it. See-sawing everyones’ minutes didn’t work, but he kept doing that. Rambis was the problem, period.

And what do you expect from the few veterans on the team? Did you honestly expect them to throw their coach, good or bad, under the bus in the middle of the season? Even the Detroit players said crap like that and they staged their own lockout.

by shangrila on Apr 23, 2011 5:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Webster played "old" to me

 this year. He looked a half step slower on most plays and couldn’t keep up with his man on D. Hopefully this was due to not playing 100% healthy at all this year. If he can shake the injury bug next year he will be a bigger contributor than last year…

Waiting for Relevancy...

by Bombnuke on Apr 23, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

I may have figured out the problem

Maybe the Wolves players are all dyslexic. They lost all those close games because when Rambis was writing “stops” they started seeing spots.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Beasley C-

The number of turnovers Beasley committed were horrible. His season average was 2.2 assists to 2.7 turnovers per game. He also took way too many heavily contested shots when he could have found the open man. And let’s not get started on his lack of defense, particularly guarding 3-point shooters.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 1:52 AM CDT reply actions  

I realize that he's young and that he has plenty of room to improve, but Beasley needs to go.

I got suckered into thinking Milicic could be something that he isn’t. I’m not about to let myself get fooled again. Throughout his career Beasley has consistently lacked the focus to be consistent. The next time he plays defense solidly through an entire game will be the first. His ball-handling skills as a wing player may be superior to any other option on the roster, but still leave much to be desired – as evidenced by the high turnover rate. And yes, his shot selection is one of the worst on the team. It’s almost like every opponent is playing Shane Battier style defense on him – allow him to get semi-open looks from the lowest TS% areas on the floor (19-22 ft). Plus, he doesn’t get to the free throw line all that often, and even when he does he shoots a poor percentage from there (if not all the time, then at least in the most critical situations).
The question becomes “What can we get for him?” I would love for the answer to be “Kevin Martin.” I would even consider taking Stephen Jackson. If Toronto had any interest in him I would try to pry DeMar DeRozan from them for him.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Apr 23, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm OK with moving Beasley if we end up drafting Derrick Williams

Otherwise, he came at a cheap price and we don’t have a better alternative. Roll with the talent until we have a clear upgrade/long-term answer.

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Beasley did come at a cheap price - but not for much longer.

6M+ this year, an 9M+ qualifying offer next year. And someone will pay more than 10M for a 23 year-old that has proven he can score 20+ per game.

I hope it isn’t us that overpays him. I like Beasley, but unless there is a major shift in how he plays, I like him much more as a 6th man/swing forward off the bench.

by Simitar on Apr 23, 2011 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm jaded on the idea of saving salary.

After all, we need to get somebody else to come here for me to be concerned about over-paying Beasley. Other than that, I actually agree with your entire statement.

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Beasley as a 6th man?

The points on Beasley’s shot selection, free throws, defense and turnovers are well taken. It might be worth it to place Michael in the game as a 6th man. Let Beasley go out full force and light it up. I don’t see paying Beasley beyond next season and dropping him in a game where he could flourish could enhance his trade value or possibly even help the Wolves win a game.

by WeDraftedPooh on Apr 24, 2011 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Like

what you are doing here.

I care less for the public statements made from Kahn so I would definitly not give him a lower grade. I’ve liked all of his trades (some only after looking them through thoroughly) and that’s a big difference from McHale.

I like the talent he has assembled thus far and the only BIG cavaet in him is as mentioned the problem that his talent assessment is not as high as it should be, thus the draft blunder of passing on Curry. That said, he has hired Ronzone to plug that hole so I’d grade that hiring high too.

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 23, 2011 2:04 AM CDT reply actions  

Frankly

I wasn’t considering your thoughts regarding Kahn’s public statements. No, I was thinking how any potential for attracting high potential free agents goes out the window whenever Kahn opens his mouth.

As for the quality of Kahn’s trades, Beasley was practically given to us (being the lowest of the low in number of wins in the Western Conference as opposed to the Heat). Riley had to move him and you can bet the Wolves being the lowest ranked team in the other conference caused him to ring Kahn. Kahn just picked up the phone.

Same with AR. The Knicks decided long ago to rid themselves of AR and the Wolves were the most likely place to move him to (different conference worst record).

I did like the Luke and Martell moves though.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 2:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I’m not convinced that the potential to attract high potential free agents is affected that much. Players read ESPN too but I’d have a hard time believing they’d pass on a good opportunity (i.e. good money, good team, good role) only because the GM is a bit a weirdo. They have to spend lots and lots more time with the coach and players, I think that’s way higher up the list.

As for the “luck” factor in the trades, don’t forget Kahn did a pretty good job of creating cap space that allowed those trades in the first place. Yes, we all did expect more from that cap space. I’m not saying he got the most of it, but he did do a good job making those trades a possibility, the fact that Beasley needed to be traded was luck, the fact that he went to us is not so much luck as you make it out to be imho.

Same goes for Randolph, especially with that Big-Ass contract of Curry. They went to us because we were under the cap, not, or at least only partially, because we are a crappy team.

I’m not advocating for an A, B or even C. I’d personally have given him a C- or D+, but I can get on board with the D-, but F? No, sorry.

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 23, 2011 3:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Testing the free agency idea:

If the Wolves were a team

  • whose coach was brilliant at eliciting a player’s best; but
  • whose GM said stuff about Chris Webber and stuck his foot in his mouth in other ways regularly,

I don’t think free agents would hesitate to come here at all. Do you? Does Flagrant?

by feral on Apr 23, 2011 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

This

is exactly what I was trying to say (besides that I think that there are other factors too besides a good coach … good teammates etc…) and that what the GM says is also a factor BUT way down on the list…

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 23, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Free agents

don’t come here for the same reason they do not go to Utah. Most black people outside of Minnesota think that there is not too may black people that live here. Most of the good players come from predominantly black cites. They want to go to places where they can feel like home. Just look at the cites with high minority/black populations and you will see the top free agent cites. The only reason why the vikings are able to get some free agents is because of the hard cap in football.

by chuckd@79 on Apr 23, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wrong

Markets with top free agents have top populations. Period. Large markets= more money=Better chance to win+ more endorsements.
Frankly most of the successful black athetes come from low income high crime inner city environments. It is their goal to escape that backround, not return to it.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is something

You don’t have a clue about since you are white. They want to get away from the crime but not from their people. How would you like to live in a city that does not have clubs that play the type of music you listen too. or have restaurants that have food that you like to eat. Why did Webber not want to go to Sacramento when he got traded there? . He said “they don’t have restaurants that have soul food” why would I want to play in Sacramento

by chuckd@79 on Apr 23, 2011 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Must suck to be Irish American or Italian American or for that matter European and play in an NBA city without "your people" (doesn't that tell me about you) and find good food that's fits your ethnicity.

And we know Minny is the least eccletic area in the country so Wolves will forever miss out on top free agents.
Chuck, here’s an idea. When you finish your associates degree this spring open a soul food restaraunt in Minneapolis and help save the franchise!

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, free agents are flocking to New Orleans

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Apr 23, 2011 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

And Memphis...

If soul food and clubs attract African American players then Memphis should make the finals every year with all the free agents that flock there.

Nice logic…

Waiting for Relevancy...

by Bombnuke on Apr 24, 2011 6:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

I did not say lack

of black people/minorities was the only reason why players pick other cities but its the top reason. I know players in the nba and this is what they say.

by chuckd@79 on Apr 24, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Even the most cursory look at NBA franchises' history with free agents makes this look wrongheaded.

Phoenix has always gotten more than its share of free agents, across races, and is generally seen as a great destination city. During their tenure in New Orleans, the Hornets have signed which prominent free agents?

Your explanation falls well below that of the simple “Big markets, big money” one it’s competing with.

by feral on Apr 23, 2011 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

The reason why

New Orleans has never got a free agent is because they have a cheap ass owner.

by chuckd@79 on Apr 24, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

And yet the previous NBA franchise in N'Awlins moved to Utah...

Seriously, your argument makes nowhere near as much sense as the very simple one it’s up against.

by feral on Apr 24, 2011 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

In the last 10

years who was a top flight free agent that came to Phoenix that was African american ? I cant think of none.

by chuckd@79 on Apr 24, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh yea

Kinda like why we don’t have any people of color (in addition to black) on the Vikings and Twins. Pat Williams didn’t want to come here, right? Winfield didn’t want to come here, right?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm watching OKC and Denver right now

Galinari is on the bench.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 23, 2011 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

You did not read my post

Hard cap = less choice among players. Trust me if those players had a choice between here or other cites those other cites would win out. Its stupid I would like to think they would come to Minnesota and play ball but I am a realist. Listen to this about market size http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9icHBrDktc

by chuckd@79 on Apr 24, 2011 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't accept the premise

You will note that based upon the citations regarding Webster, Tolliver, and Love, that no one complained about the system or the coach at all. Sorry, but I’ll take their opinion well above the collective here at CH.

What they complained about is youth, inexperience, and an unwillingness to follow the system. Of course, top of the list in that regard is Jonny Flynn who has carped since he was drafted about how having the system suit his interests, not the team.

Its like taking a team of AAU basketball players to an ice cream shop. Each wanting a favor that suits him, no semblance of sameness. Flynn wants pick-and-roll, Beasley wants to be a one-man wrecking crew against 3 defenders in the paint.

Read Webster’s comment carefully. Each (young player) wants to lead the league in scoring and doesn’t yet know what it takes to win. That’s your youngest and least experienced roster that Kahn is so proud of.

As for PBOB (not GM), your attempt to shine that turd is ridiculous even for you. I’ll let the comments made at the time, including S-n-P’s stand for themselves. The fall-out from Kahn’s walking grenade:

1. Free agents will be even more hesitant to sign here;
2. GM’s from other clubs won’t take Kahn very seriously in trade talk, etc.;
3. It simply reinforces the notion that Minnesota is not NBA ready

Then, Kahn decided to double-down on stupidity by referring to Weber as a “jerk” a few weeks later on local radio.

Look, I realize you are perpetually raising your hand for Kahn, but you diminish yourself further by accepting this bad boy.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

What a total and complete non-response.

I clicked “up” to see who you were responding to. Who was defending David Kahn to the last man?

Me?

You don’t accept the premise, but then you don’t respond to it one little bit either. Nor did you touch on the adroit “Jerry Krause” post that made the same point more easily.

It’s so bizarre to have someone tell me I’m “perpetually raising (my) hand for Kahn,” I don’t even know how to respond. What a completely ridiculous thing to say. Are you paying any attention, whatsoever, to what you’re reading on this site?? My “attempt to shine that turd” is “ridiculous, even for you”?? What are you even talking about, Flagrant?

It’s true, on occasion I try with both Rambis and Kahn to say that either of them does have some positive traits, I mean, you yourself responded to my saying this:

We really don’t have to choose between Kahn and Rambis as objects of our criticism. Neither of them is wholly inept, neither is without blame, and if you read this board with any regularity you’ll see a whole lot of specific discussion about both their traits.

Yeah, I’m really manning the ramparts in defense of one as opposed to the other, to the point where my credibility suffers… No, wait. That would be you.

Do us the courtesy of having a tiny clue of what you’re talking about when you start throwing the “turd” rhetoric from your monkey cage.

by feral on Apr 24, 2011 7:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's not impacted at all.

Anyone every hear of Jerry Krause???
People who think players won’t come to a franchise because a GM has a tendency to make some dumb or inappropriate remarks has little concept of how the NBA really works. Their only concern with the GM is how much money he’ll pay them.
Players sign because of $, personal opportunity to improve their status/ role, coach, chance to win…..Show me the free agent quote where the player said he did or didn’t sign because of the GM. Not to mention Kahn gives respect to these players NO other GMs do. Could he have been more forthright or accomodating with Al? He treats players with a level of openness and respect (sans the Flynn comments) that doesn’t exist elsewhere in the league.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

So true!

Rambis had a free pass last year because of the roster but after this year he needs to go. The guy cannot coach a group of starving bums through a chow line!!! Some believe he may be better coaching a veteran team but ask the Lakers why he only coached a partial season…

Waiting for Relevancy...

by Bombnuke on Apr 23, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kahn's comments are an indication

that he doesn’t “get” it. His lack of skill or luck in building a better team are more worrisome, especially in light of keeping Love around and attracting Rubio. If they want to win, Kahn has to show that the comments aren’t an indication of a bumbling boob.

So far, the cover is a good indication of the book within.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rich

His moves havent been bumbling. His tongue has. And he does treat the players honestly.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

Is there one move he’s made that has made the team better? Other than failing in his attempts to trade Kevin Love?

17 wins vs. 15 wins-while-tanking doesn’t seem to leave much evidence of improvement. The end of season decline in team and individual performance is almost as damning as his contention that the roster’s “set,” while proclaiming a need for “significant fine-tuning.”

Kahn’s incompetence is especially obvious when compared to what could have been achieved just by conventional wisdom or random chance or circumstances beyond his control or that which occurred prior to his departure.

Guy’s got nothing.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's a question inside a question.

Is the team better? I think we probably agree it is. The wins to me are a reflection of the coach’s ability to foster positive results. He is fully incapable. Kahn has made multiple player moves which evaluated independent of each other or team results should have netted a better outcome. I can’t argue wins but we can argue the stimuli.
I understand he hasn’t drafted to your liking but he has made multiple good moves including acquiring a lottery pick for nothing.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

The team is two wins better

from a season of tanking. Based on several independent metrics, any increase in wins can be directly attributed to increased minutes for Kevin Love, a player for whom Kahn has little regard.

As has been discussed here multiple times, getting Michael Beasley was a move that really only the Timberwolves could have pulled off, and the groundwork for the trade was laid long before Kahn showed up.

Regardless of Rambis’ inability to improve the players or the team, Kahn’s “set” roster of this historically-inept team is actually up close to the top of their salary range—a condition that precludes him from signing any impact free agents, and/or being able to trade any of the several sub-par players for one good starter.

I know he picked not one but two so-far-disappointing players from Syracuse, and therefore you feel the need to defend him with nearly the fervor devoted to sticking up for the Orange Nightmares, but the overwhelming evidence is that he’s completely incompetent, and the overwhelming majority of observers agree.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not defending him with a fervor, and I said we can't argue wins.

The Wolves are the only team that could have pulled off Beasely? And it was set up for him? Come on. Be fair.
He has pulled off some great moves. He did better on AR than anyone on this board would have done. He stuck to his guns and didn’t budge on a late first rounder.
Rich it sounds really personal to you. It is not to me. Another turnover prone, non defending big man (who is incidently a head case ) was not the answer. Let it go. I still claim his biggest “miss” was hiring this coach. Right now I can’t get past that because injuries notwithstanding he was hands down the biggest detriment/ obsticle to their success this season. And let’s not forget the influence Coach Kurt had on some of the player selections. I promise you, while not yet a playoff team, this group is waaaay better than it’s record. We can’t replay the season with no injuries or a different coach so that shall just remain my opinion until that page is turned.
And unfortunately as a result of the substitution folly there are still 4-5 guys on the roster whose questions remain unanswered.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rambis has done a terrible job.

Both in tactics and philosophy (and who hired him, again?).

But other than Love, none of these players can be considered even “above average,” and most are well below “below average.” Rank them according to the rest of the league at the respective positions, and you’ll see what I mean.

What’s worse is that even in light of the obvious woefully-weak roster, Kahn is bewildered that anyone would think otherwise. I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: He’s either a liar, or an idiot, and my guess is leaning toward “both.”

By the way, if you can find any other high praise for the job David Kahn’s doing, I’d certainly be willing to reconsider my position.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

You don't read well. I said Kahn is at fault for Rambos hire.

Again, we’re at am impasse. I strongly feel the individual rankings would differ in a different system with a different coach. It’s all contaminated evidence!
Anyway, you know I respect your stance. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

So far, I'm sorry to be so right

but my stance still doesn’t deserve any respect

(It’s too wide, or so I’ve been told).

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's

going to get you into trouble, senator.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 24, 2011 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Best line ever for a presser to reaffirm your straightness:

“Thank you all for coming out today.” —Larry Craig

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 24, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Had not heard that line at the time

Oh, but that is as good as it gets!
Only a deeply religious conservative politician from a Western state could voice reality in so confusing a way!

Smug liberal elitist Uptown hipster since before last week...

by Dogpile on Apr 24, 2011 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're arguement seems myopic

Everything starts and ends with Rambis. Then you suggest being “fair?”

No coach could have won more than lost with the 2009-10 and 2010-11 rosters.

When are you going to accept the opinion of those closest to the action, the few players considered amongst the best on the roster, Tolliver and Webster?

1. They don’t blame the system;
2. They blame the unwillingness of some players to play in the system;
3. All the young players want to lead the NBA in scoring (Webster), they don’t know what it takes to win….

If anything, based on Tolliver and Webster, Rambis should be commended for babysitting the youngest and least experienced in the league.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 24, 2011 1:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

"No coach could have won more than lost with the 2009-10 and 2010-11 rosters. "

Could you name me one coach in the NBA who would have had LESS than 17 wins with the 2010-11 Wolves?

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 7:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

(Randy Wittman?)

It’s a rich tapestry, Minnesota Timberwolves history. Redolent, even.

by feral on Apr 24, 2011 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

I believe what he was suggesting is that the 09-10 and 10-11 Timberwolves could not have been above .500 regardless of who was coaching the team.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Apr 24, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

No one ever said they could have or should have been at or above .500

I’d say most everyone on this site had them between 22-35 wins with most around 25.
He failed to even come close. So again my question : Is there a current NBA coach who would have done worse.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

You really must think that's a great roster he's working with.

Well, it’s not. Not only that, but players we may have expected more from were either injured, or on leave. Rambis doesn’t like Flynn because of his style game and his buffoonery on the bench – so why was he playing so much, if Rambis preferred Bassy? Rambis was faulted for not having a tighter (8 man) rotation. How can you work out a rotation when you have so many players whom your not confident can ‘bring’ it every night. Was Wes ‘on’ very night, or Ellington, or Webster? Whom do you start there? He was criticised for not playing Anthony Randolph 30 minutes a game by Oceanary, when Randolph himself said he needed time to get into game shape. He was criticised for the 15 game losing streak at the end of the season, though Kevin Love was not available for 11 of them, and was playing injured in the others. Before that, Beasley, Darko, and Pekovic were battling recurrent injuries. 3 guys were out for personal reasons. What do you do. You’re damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Webster was really just starting to recover from his injuries and look like himself. The people unavailable to the coach at any particular time has resulted in juggled line-ups, and it’s especially tough when the talent level isn’t the best anyway. They don’t have a true starting guard, they have no shooting guard that has yet emerged, they couldn’t get a top-flight center and have been making do with what they could get. Anthony Randolph didn’t join the team until mid-February and wasn’t ready to play;
The team is improved talent-wise, but it wasn’t a huge increment, plus, this being the first year for this team, they have a lot to learn. The only vet leadership is your starting guard who has been a back-up his whole career. Aren’t some of us guilty of excessive expectations? Some are too ready to cast insults at people when they’re not instantly gratified. Building a team takes time. Vincent Blasco Ibanez, in Blood and Sand, as his hero is dying from a horn wound, blames the Beast “the one and only one”. – Not the bull; The blood-thirsty fans. There’s been a lot of cruelty here. Coaches and GMs are people, too.
Happy Easter.

As long as the world is turning and spinning, we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes.

by BaylorWest on Apr 24, 2011 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't be too concerned about the crucifixion of Rambis...

He’s sure to be resurrected and rise again 3 days later in L.A.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Any argument past Rambis is moot to me right now

It’s like a trial which includes blood evidence as the core of the prosecution’s case. There may be other incriminating factors but if the blood evidence is contaminated during collection then all implications hinged to that are also contaminated. Since the coach is the heart of this equation I can’t ignore his immense impact on individual and team performance. Does that give Kahn an undeserved free pass? It may, but i’m not going to kill him for this talent until the lab becomes sterile and results can be trusted.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Non-sense

The No. 1 interest of free agents is WINNING!

So much for your “superior” knowledge of how the league works.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 24, 2011 1:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Remember

MJ and Pippin = WINNING

Kahn = PR blunders + losing rosters = losing

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 24, 2011 1:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

One suspects that even you experience some cognitive dissonance in using HOF players juxtaposed with a GM in your argument.

Kahn’s inability to judge talent is not under any dispute on this board. Take a vote and you’ll get an overwhelming majority saying he doesn’t draft as well as the draftexpress mocks. That doesn’t give Rambis a free pass, for anyone.

by feral on Apr 24, 2011 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Once again, you fail to fully grasp the weight of my statement

I was simply pointing out that Bulls fans (of which I was at the time) could easily overlook anything Kruse said because the team was so damn successful. Besides, everyone realized that Kruse didn’t run the franchise, MJ did.

As compared to Uncle Dingus, who has a keen ability to combine historically losing seasons with off-season PR blunders. Somewhere on this board, S-n-P has pointed out that no one other than perhaps “Momma, there goes that man” Mark Jackson for one season is interested in working for Uncle Dingus.

Working for Uncle Dingus is a sure way to limit one’s coaching career in the NBA.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 25, 2011 2:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

AR "Incomplete"

Best aspects of AR is that he is hungry and has a warrior mentality. This was a pleasant surprise for me.

The body of work is a bit small to proclaim him as an “A” bordering on “A+” but to each their own. His main concerns are (A) can he stay healthy for an entire season of 20+ minutes played per game over 82 games? and (B) can he subtract rather than add to the volume of turnovers this team commits. (2 turnovers for every 1 assist with the Wolves).

But he is Kahn’s “young, lengthy, athletic” that sets Kahn aglow and is the envy of the NBA, according to the PBOB.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 2:08 AM CDT reply actions  

With you there.

Randolph’s career grade is an incomplete, for sure. We’re not going to know about Randolph here in Minnesota for another season.

by feral on Apr 23, 2011 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was at least partially

checked out by the time AR got here, so I didn’t watch his games overly intently… how was he defensively? This seems like something that would be important for anyone who wanted to play next to klove in the long term.

by rugbyisbetter on Apr 23, 2011 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Get's pushed around and backed down. He needs some beef.

As long as the world is turning and spinning, we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes.

by BaylorWest on Apr 24, 2011 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

By definition of position

big men are responsible for way more turnovers than assists. There aren’t a whole lot of six-eleven guys on this list.

(which of course begs the question of why the coach would choose to run any offense through a seven-footer, but, whatever).

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry

should have stated, “But he is Kahn’s young, lengthy, athletic, that set Kahn AND PoorDick aglow”

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thank you for nailing Ellington

Couldn’t have summed it up better myself. I was looking at his numbers yesterday and was trying to reconcile the story they were telling me with the player he appears to be.

It’s unfortunate because his trade value is so much lower than his talent level. He’s going to be one of the better ex-wolves when he leaves.

by hipity on Apr 23, 2011 3:30 AM CDT reply actions  

Wes Johnson, Martell Webster, and Wayne Ellington

are all guys that would benefit from a slashing, ball-dominant play maker. None of these guys are capable of being high usage scorers.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 23, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed about Ellington

Keep Wayne, Randolph, and Tolliver. Get rid of everyone else while you can. Kevin Loves stock will never be higher, get rid of him. Same with Beasley, I dont see what everyone else sees in him.. We need to sell the farm to put a team on the floor next year so LA gets the 25th – 30th pick in next years first round. so heres what I propose-
   Trade Kevin Love to the Anaheim Royals for marcus thorton and a future 1st rounder.
   Trade Darko to Utah for a collection of mid 80’s boomboxes which were outlawed in the eary 90’s
   Trade Beasley to back to miami for 500,000 frequent flyer miles.
   Trade Martell Webster to OKC for the licensing rights of AC/DC’s song “Thunder”
   Trade Pek to Seattle and let him know that we wish him the best of luck in the NBA.
   Trade Telfair to NJ for documented proof of his family tree, there is no way he’s related to stephon.
   Trade Luke to LA for 50% of all royalties grossed for Peter Jacksons new film, “the Hobbit” staring Luke Ridnour as Bilbo.
   Trade Johnny to Eau Claire, Wi, for a buy one get one coupon for any hillshire farms meat product at Festival Foods.

After that, fire Rambis, cross your fingers, and pray for the best… Kahn should find a way to make this work. He will have many scouting opportunities with his flyer miles earned from the Beasley deal. And If he happens to end up in Wisconsin, he’ll have some lunch meat to snack on while he observes the 7th grade team at Eau Claire middles school. Then he’ll tell all of us that if we just hold tight for 5 more years, he’ll get us our guy..

by NotSchmendle on Apr 23, 2011 4:43 AM CDT reply actions  

Your comments were right on, the grades were a bit askew

How can Love get an A+?. Wasn’t defense factored in?
If Kahn hit “home runs” on Beas and Randolph and his draft pick was a C, Ridnour was a B I don’t get the D- grade. This should be performance based, not personality based. Played to your audience on that one.
Beasely also playedzero defense and didn’t just dissapear for parts of games as much as parts of the season (injury notwithstanding). Thought the centers deserved C’s. Pek a rookie, Darko a decent stopper who was innappropriately made the cog of the offense. Darko -turnovers = B.
Still most of your assessments and observations are spot on excellent.
Get up with Cynical. You teach him to make valid observations about players and personel, he’ll teach you how to give grades.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 7:19 AM CDT reply actions  

lmao

This is great

Hating the (New York) Yankees is as American as pizza pie, unwed mothers, and cheating on your income tax. ~ Mike Royco

by Percy Harvin My Fav! on Apr 23, 2011 9:33 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Flynn = F+

AR = Incomplete
Pek = C-, No way he gets the same grade as ’D’arko
Rubio = A, for staying in Europe
David Stern = F, for rigging this years draft lottery to make sure the Wolves pick #4.
Glen Taylor = F, for being a terrible owner

Reduce turnovers, reduce personal fouls, shoot better, win.

by PoohRubio on Apr 23, 2011 7:29 AM CDT reply actions  

Notice there's no "firestorm" over Flynn.

It’s hard to start a fire when all you’ve got is the ashes of a career to talk about.

by feral on Apr 23, 2011 7:49 AM CDT reply actions  

Ashes of a season granted. Not so quick on the career.

Meanwhile, nice work delivering your own straight line for your punchline.
Maybe some potential there as a vantriliquist.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

American popular culture is bizarre.

During the great depression, think about it, one of the biggest stars in this country was a ventriloquist’s dummy, Charlie McCarthy. Who performed on the RADIO.

by feral on Apr 23, 2011 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Don't think you need to ask Wolves fans to think about the Great Depression

Aren’t they living through it?
(So if DK is Charlie McCarthy, who’s Edgar Bergan?)

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Flynn's play was maddening

but there is a reason he regressed so much. Is it coaching, injury recovery or perhaps both. Flynn has some skills but he will have to improve more than he is capable to regain any favorable following from Wolves fans. Kahn threw him under the bus, Rambis finally gave up on him in the end and I know of no one that really cares for him as player on the team. Anyone willing to wait and see next year if he can turn around his play?

Waiting for Relevancy...

by Bombnuke on Apr 23, 2011 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

For whatever reasons or whosever to blame I think Kahns comments and Jonnys apparent rebellious response both to those comments and to Rambis have made is impossible for him to return as a Wolve.

Had Jonny been a good soldier and ridden it out….waited for Rambis to get fired, Kahn could have tried one more time with a different coach. He did qualify the Flynn " mistake " by saying he was a poor pick for this coach.
Though no verbal resentment from JF Ill be the first to admit his on court conduct would make it difficult for a return.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is there a link

to these quotes? I seem to have missed them.

I echo the comments abo. It was frustrating to watch him play though we know there’s more skill in him, the question that we cannot answer is what caused this bad season, there’s too much valid possiblities.

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 23, 2011 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Pig is the King of quote retrieval. Hopefully he can help.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

You will help what now with the what now?

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 23, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Shoot.

I was hoping you could translate.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

WILD NATURE
No Oink About It, Feral Pig Problem Spreading
By Ruth Ravve
Published February 07, 2011 | FoxNews.com
Print Email Share Comments

AP
Jan. 13, 2011: Feral pigs stand at Renegade Ranch in Cheboygan, Mich., where hunters can hunt a variety of game including feral pigs.
War is being waged right now across the country — against huge, ever-growing packs of feral pigs that are running rampant, destroying crops, killing wildlife and spreading disease everywhere they go, the U.S. Department of Agriculture reports.

They’ve been spotted all the way from Texas to California to Michigan and in New York.

"It’s estimated there are at least 4 million of them nationwide, but its impossible to count them all so there may be much more" said Carol Bannerman, a spokesman for the USDA Wildlife Services.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Feral" is just a term for anything that's domesticated but turns "wild."

Feral cats, for example. And “feral” children are usually said to have been raised by wolves.

Your paraphrase of Kahn was accurate enough, wasn’t it? I don’t think we have a transcript of that last press conference. What I remember was him being asked about mistakes, and saying that he’d chosen Flynn without a coach on board – he nodded toward needing to be “sensitive” about McHale, right? – and that Jonny wasn’t a good fit with the system.

by feral on Apr 23, 2011 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Guess I chose the pig because of this...

“feral pigs that are running rampant, destroying crops, killing wildlife and spreading disease everywhere they go…”

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

(I chose the name because it's an adjective applicable to Wolves that reads like a name.)

Feral pigs terrify me. Actually even the ones on farms are pretty scary animals, from my childhood. Sows with piglets were dang-er-ous.

by feral on Apr 24, 2011 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

2 words

pork chops

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 24, 2011 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just ask Francis Gumm

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Judy?

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 24, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Correct. Fell in with the hogs.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

WILD NATURE
No Oink About It, Feral Pig Problem Spreading
By Ruth Ravve
Published February 07, 2011 | FoxNews.com
Print Email Share Comments

AP
Jan. 13, 2011: Feral pigs stand at Renegade Ranch in Cheboygan, Mich., where hunters can hunt a variety of game including feral pigs.
War is being waged right now across the country — against huge, ever-growing packs of feral pigs that are running rampant, destroying crops, killing wildlife and spreading disease everywhere they go, the U.S. Department of Agriculture reports.

They’ve been spotted all the way from Texas to California to Michigan and in New York.

"It’s estimated there are at least 4 million of them nationwide, but its impossible to count them all so there may be much more" said Carol Bannerman, a spokesman for the USDA Wildlife Services.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Flynn's better than he played this season

He would benefit from being on a team not named after a dog. With that said however, he’s not good, he’s just not this bad.

by hipity on Apr 23, 2011 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

grade inflation

your average GPA of the ten “core” players who were with the team and played for most of the season (Beasley, Ellington, Flynn, Johnson, Love, Darko, Pek, Ridnour, Tolliver, Webster) is 2. A solid C, for a 17 win team?

I know Rambis’ F would drag that down, but I think nearly every player rating is a bit too high Love I would give a B+, Beasley a C, etc.

by highpockets on Apr 23, 2011 8:32 AM CDT reply actions  

This is the whole point

The sum of the parts was greater than the whole.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not bad

I think you were generous to Beasley, should not have graded AR at all, and should stop making excuses for Darko, who should not be playing 25 minutes a game under any circumstances. A straight A for Love probably would have sufficed.

Overall, though, reasonable.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 23, 2011 8:50 AM CDT reply actions  

A simple solution

Get rid (or change role) of anyone that got a D or below.

Flynn — Gone

Darko — Hope he leaves or his only role is D and the occasional wide open dunk or put back on O.

Pek — Try to trade. Don’t see the potential. Bring on Paolo Prestes….

Bassy — Gone or 3rd guard behind Rubio or Irving/Ridnour

Wayne, Lazar, even Martell — Could be trade fillers to match salary.

Rambis/Kahn — Should both be fired. May both be back! Damn CBA.

That leaves 4 PFs (Wolves top 4 players), a backup PG, and a catch and shoot (hopefully) SG/SF. What a roster Kahn has put together. Did I say he should be fired?

by ChicagoViking on Apr 23, 2011 9:30 AM CDT reply actions  

Best thing you've written on here Oceanary

well done.
I can quibble quite a bit with your grades, but then again, if I went through and graded every Wolf, I’d probably come back and quibble with myself 10 minutes later. Having said that, my quibbles:
Beasley: a full grade too high. It’s absurd that we have both Jonny Flynn and Beasley on the same team at the same time, because they’re both so remarkably, remarkably awful on D. To borrow your Pek example, if we played Craig Smith Beasley’s minutes and gave him Beasley’s touches and shots, I have absolutely no doubt he’d score as much or more. I also have no doubt he’d be able to defend the 3 and the 4 as well Beasley too, which is to say not at all.
Pek: I like Pek, and I think he can be a better Craig Smith, which is actually pretty damned good, but I can’t argue with his grade. I will say if you’re giving Wes a bump for being a rookie, Pek should have been given it too, because he was even more clearly adjusting to the nba than Wes. So one of them goes up or down a grade.
Love: props for not bitching about him not covering the 3 ball, since it clearly is a team-wide, intentional failure. I give them all a pass on that, from Beasley to Love to Tolliver. It will be interesting to see what happens if there’s a different coach, and if we ever get anything resembling even a bad nba backcourt on this team.
Jonny: He got an F from me before his injury, and I see no signs of improvement in his game, so…yeah. I’m less willing to give him any slack either, since his much-vaunted character and intangibles played themselves out this year as pouty, whiny, immature jerk. Not that that is unusual in a professional athlete (they’re very young, with lots of money and…stuff), but when he takes it on the court and intentionally hurts his team (see his intentionally bad barrages of 3 pointers in the last couple of games that had nothing to do with trying to win a basketball game) he’s crossed a line that is pretty clear.

by rickyp on Apr 23, 2011 10:17 AM CDT reply actions  

BAD NEWS

Ok more of a gut feeling. Ever since Kahn said they were going to wait on a Rambis decision I have had a feeling they are only waiting for things to cool down so they can bring him back without all of us walking off a cliff. I also had a feeling what we would end up doing is bringing in a defensive assistant. Today there is a rumor on ESPN to that effect.

The good news is I think Rambis will redeem himself next year and we will all be happy we retained him. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!!!!

P.s. Please don’t kick me off of the site

by FunkDoobious on Apr 23, 2011 10:21 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Where did you see that rumor?

Keeping Rambis is the most definitive sign that the Wolves are just worried about keeping costs down (and don’t understand that revenues will go up with improved performance). If they’re saving that money, they probably won’t sign any free agents, either. What a bunch of clowns.

by Madison Dan on Apr 23, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's right

here:

Kahn’s mantra that the just-completed 17-victory season absolutely, positively cannot happen again mandates that things must change.

He maintains that there will be no more major rebuilding of the roster, only some necessary adjustments, so if the Wolves stay that course from where’s that change going to come?

Well, young players’ slow but hopefully eventual maturity and development, for two things.

But also…could Kahn’s odd press conference on the season’s final day be a call for Rambis to go home to L.A. for awhile and think about how he and his coaching can change?

If Rambis returns with the promise that things will change, the Wolves probably will bring in new assistant coaches, including a defensive specialist . The Wolves obviously were atrocious defensively last season and change starts there, as well as probably an adaptation and simplification of Rambis’ complex offense as well as better communication with players.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks. So other than failing at offense and defense,

they’re fine with Rambis’ performance. Special teams are very important, I suppose.

by Madison Dan on Apr 23, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not to mention

“Swagger.”

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

RUMINT has it..

….that the off-season changes will be all or nothing. Everything I’ve been able to put together is that they put out feelers about who would want to come here and take over, and, as you can imagine from a franchise with multiple 1st rounders and cap space that started a search 2 years ago with Randy Pfund and David Kahn, the current cupboard-being-a-bit-more-bare search has returned a big scary bowl of nothing on the potential suitor list (especially on the coaching side, where nobody wants to work for a guy that will likely get canned in the next 12-18 months anyway).

As I write this, Lionel Hollins is getting interviewed about how they’re up at the start of the 4th against the 1st seeded Spurs. Oi.

Anywho, you can bet your bottom dollar that Zgoda’s article was pretty much what Kahn would have put out in a press release, but the general thrust is, from what I can tell, correct. All or nothing in terms of firing in the off-season. Kahn might be able to get Mark Jackson for a year, but no other bright young coach is going to take a shot on this team with Kahn still calling the shots.

BTW: Prepare yourself for Biyambo with even the 1st pick. If there is 1 team in the league who would take him at the top, it’s Our Beloved Puppies.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 23, 2011 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh boy.

This Biyombo business is fun and all, but just so we’re clear in case the Wolves visit CH:

Inflate the Irving bubble!!

by Madison Dan on Apr 23, 2011 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

No Thorpe

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 24, 2011 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

So even if Glen Taylor wants to start over and build a solid organization

he will not find any suitors? No one must actually believe him or he must not actually be serious.

Get rid of Rob Moor? No way in hell. Increase the front office budget and give someone total authority within a set budget? No way in hell.
Let’s keep David one more year and Kurt as well.

Great.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 24, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather have "Bye Rambo" than Biyambo

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is awesome

I like this plan. I’m excited to be a fan of this franchise.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 23, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

feral

with your permission, I’d like to use this as my profile picture for a while.
It is a better summary of this team, this season, than a thousand words!

Smug liberal elitist Uptown hipster since before last week...

by Dogpile on Apr 24, 2011 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rambis redeem himself?

Please. Give him a roster that includes a veteran go-to player like Kahn promised and mix-in some veteran talent and Rambis will be fine.

Exit question: How many of the current playoff teams are the youngest and least experienced in the NBA? None. I didn’t think so.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exit question: How many of the current playoff teams are the youngest and least experienced in the NBA? None. I didn’t think so.

Ages of players who played at least 500 minutes (from most minutes to least):

OKC: 22, 22, 21, 21, 26, 24, 30, 23, 27, 23

MIN: 22, 22, 29, 23, 25, 24, 25, 23, 24, 21, 25, 25

by Simitar on Apr 23, 2011 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice try

How many teams are in the play-offs?

Also, is the Thunder the youngest AND least experienced?

Now, go back and do all your homework before trying to refute my claim. Go on now…

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 24, 2011 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow, are you ever grasping at straws.

Portland’s roster in 07-08, when they hit .500 after being the worst team in the league two years before:

23, 22, 23, 24, 21, 27, 24, 27, 28, 21, 31, 22, 21, 20

The players 24 or older there were: Jarrett Jack, Steve Blake, Channing Frye, James Jones, Joel Przybilla, and Raef LaFrentz.

by feral on Apr 24, 2011 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

It gives me no pleasure in pointing out your illiteracy

but I’m forced to do so, as you are quickly becoming one of my favorite chew toys.

Now, what did Mr. Flagrant write, Feral?

He wrote, “Also, is the Thunder the youngest AND least experienced?”

Did you noticed the combination word “AND”?

That mean the combination of youngest along with least experienced, okay?

So, when you only give Mr. Flagrant a series of chronological ages does that fully respond to his statement?

No, it doesn’t.

Now, go back and do your homework. Let see if you can conjure up an appropriate rebuttal while Mr. Fragrant patiently waits……tick…..tick…..tick….

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 25, 2011 2:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, Flagrant, we totally understand that you are excited to "fine print" your lame argument due to its incredibly superficial nature.

It may be true that other teams loaded with young players have been coached in ways diametrically opposed to the approach taken by Rambis under Kahn – slowing the pace as the Blazers did and still do, for example – and had dramatic successes. But you’ve got the fine print of one of your own posts to stick to, and dammit you’re going down with that ship!

by feral on Apr 25, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Two words: Durant, Westbrook.

As long as the world is turning and spinning, we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes.

by BaylorWest on Apr 24, 2011 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Two words

equals a team? hohohoho

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on May 4, 2011 9:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I give everyone on the roster an 'E' for effort

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 23, 2011 11:29 AM CDT reply actions  

Another beauty from Nelly Forbush.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 23, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

ESPN

Insider NBA rumor mill. I can safely say that it is an unsubstantiated report. But my gut is never wrong so Rambis will be back and Kahn will hire someone and put them in charge of the D.

by FunkDoobious on Apr 23, 2011 11:33 AM CDT via mobile reply actions  

Does your gut have any idea where the stock market is going?

That could help ease my depression regarding the other output from your gut.

by Madison Dan on Apr 23, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

The output of his gut

and the Timberwolves’ management looks remarkably similar.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 23, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

and you know this

because?

Please don’t answer.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes the market is going to blow goats

You heard it here first… Ok not really

by FunkDoobious on Apr 23, 2011 11:49 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think I saw a video clip of that at one point.

I would try to post a link to the clip, but this is a family friendly site (with the occasional foul language, of course).

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Apr 24, 2011 2:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

But...

Supposedly, one of Rambis’ claims to fame was that he was put in charge of the Lakers defense. So, now he needs someone else to do that in which he allegedly excelled? If that’s the case, hire someone for offense, someone for defense and put Rambis in charge of pontification.

by ElliotMRCS on Apr 23, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Before trusting your gut

May I please ask what you last had to eat?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

My gut also tells me

Rambis will be on a 20 game leash. So if he’s not a new improved Rambis he will go back to L.A. Where his hair is still cool … I think not really sure never been to L.A.

by FunkDoobious on Apr 23, 2011 12:50 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

think so too

He’ll be retained and given one last chance to turn it around

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 23, 2011 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

if the plan is to fire Rambis midseason...

Without a substantial turnaround, let’s hope they have a good in-house replacement or we are staring at giving the Clips a top-six pick next offseason. Midseason firings kinda suck because typically all good replacement candidates have jobs. If we don’t have a good assistant on hand, it will likely be a long season.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 23, 2011 6:36 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

question: do coaches get paid during a lockout?

I mean, they’re not players. They’re not being locked out. So the owners must still have to pay them, right? So, if Glen Taylor fires Rambis and hires a new coach, he potentially will have to pay two head coaches simultaneously while regular season games are being cancelled by a lockout? Ugh. This looming lockout looks like it is hurting us already.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 23, 2011 9:41 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

question: do coaches get paid during a lockout?

I mean, they’re not players. They’re not being locked out. So the owners must still have to pay them, right? So, if Glen Taylor fires Rambis and hires a new coach, he potentially will have to pay two head coaches simultaneously while regular season games are being cancelled by a lockout? Ugh. This looming lockout looks like it is hurting us already.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 23, 2011 9:43 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

They get paid.

And yeah, Glen’s usual eat-the-seed-corn M.O. is partly in play, don’t you think? He maybe doesn’t want to double pay, the lockout makes him wait on making a call, and the franchise drifts passively along, solemnly intoning stuff about not making a hasty emotional decision.

All our emotions are draining from our bodies as we speak, Glen. We’re numb. Is now a good time for that choice?

by feral on Apr 24, 2011 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bill Laimbeer is the coach I wanted to get the job in the first place, so ...

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Apr 24, 2011 2:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

NO

As long as the world is turning and spinning, we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes.

by BaylorWest on Apr 24, 2011 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

David Thorpe's take on Wolves draft pick

This is really thought-provoking to me:

Minnesota Timberwolves
Even with all the high draft picks and some free-agent acquisitions, the Wolves have holes at every position except whatever spot Kevin Love plays. Though they still own the rights to Ricky Rubio and sit on a very disappointing — but talented — Jonny Flynn, the Wolves clearly will have to consider taking Kyrie Irving, of course. But pairing up your best player with a complementary one makes sense, and if the Wolves decide to go that route, they’ll have to consider Bismack Biyombo.

If you think he’s too raw a talent to go No. 1, you’re wrong. Think of it like this: He averages 6 and 5 with more than two blocks a game while playing in Spain’s top division, which is the second-best basketball league in the world after the NBA. And he does that while playing less than half the game. It’s a league far more rugged than college. How would Irving fare over there in 17 minutes?

Biyombo pairs up perfectly with Love, as his above-the-rim game and high intensity matches up with Love’s solid positional defense and calm demeanor. BB would give the Wolves a constant threat in the paint to dunk anything he touched while allowing Love to float outside for his great jumper. And they would form one of the top rebounding tandems in the league. His energy alone would help Love and every other player on the team. Flynn, Wes Johnson and Love all want lots of touches and shots, and BB could excel just playing off their misses. The two players he’s always compared to are Ben Wallace and Kevin Garnett.

I don’t want Biyombo to be the only thing we net out of this draft, but I wholeheartedly agree with Thorpe’s take on how perfectly Biyombo pairs up with Love. We’d have that elusive rim-protecting stud and nobody would out-rebound us. I desperately want The Wolves to find a way to trade back into the Top-8 so we could somehow get Biyombo AND either Irving or Williams.

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 3:31 PM CDT reply actions  

Bismack might be an excellent compliment to Love...

But how isn’t Kyrie Irving also a good compliment to Love and the rest of the team? Or, at least, he should be. If we keep Rambis, his offense tends to limit point guards and emphasize wings and bigs. It would be a shame for us to win the lottery and get Irving, only to let Rambis’ offense hamstring him. I’m not saying we shouldn’t draft Irving. He would likely still be here long after Rambis is gone.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 23, 2011 5:52 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Thorpe doesn't advocate picking Biyombo over Irving.

He just says he has top-pick talent and would be a great fit next to Love.

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

he did say...

“If you think bismack is too raw a talent to go #1, you’re wrong.” That does imply that he thinks the Wolves should consider Bismack at #1.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 23, 2011 6:43 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Did you read my post - I said, "he just says he has top-pick talent"

Who are you arguing with? Nobody definitively said MN must pick BB over Irving.

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for posting Thorpe's comment

We really, really need to get this PG situation straightened out. Luke is a nice rotation player but I would expect more out of a PG in terms of assists per game. Can’t speak highly enough about Kyrie as a leader and a great kid, we periodically have him on our Call of Duty Black Opns gamer list.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Apr 23, 2011 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we land Irving

Who do we trade? I believe in Irving, but he’s also got the Flavor of The Month advantage over Rubio right now. I could really go for an in-depth breakdown of Rubio and Irving in the following ways:

1. Who is better by statistical measures and by subjective skill sets?
2. Who could draw the greater return in a potential trade?

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

You absolutely keep Irving.

He has every trait, skill and characteristic you could ever want in a PG.

Rubio has a lot of serious questions.

by Simitar on Apr 23, 2011 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I completely love Kyrie Irving, but it seems like the populace just wants to dump Rubio.

I’ve seen folks proposing dumping Rubio for Alec Burks, who I also really like. But Rubio has got sick talent as well and I want to get an appropriate return for him.

Do folks no longer think he’ll be an NBA Star?

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

No

this is what you seem to want to think, but for me (and I think others), it’s just a matter of comparing Irving and Rubio and deciding that Irving is better. Rubio’s big comparative problem is shooting. He’s likely to be a better playmaker than Irving, but that’s about it as far as I can tell. I’d take either one on my roster next year, but if you’re asking me to pick, it’s Irving. And if you’re asking me to pick Irving or Rubio + trade package, I’d probably still take Irving because a good rule of thumb is to always get the best player in any trade (i.e., quality over quantity). Burks is fine, but I think it’s more likely than not that we don’t even remember who he is in five years.

by Madison Dan on Apr 23, 2011 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree on all fronts

I just don’t want to dump Rubio at a discount if we land Irving. Either way, I’m just happy that we’ve got one bird in hand with Rubio. If we win the lottery, it’s a good problem to have – one that a great POBO would certainly be able to leverage to maximize the value of all his assets…

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

The only reason to feel good is....

that our POBO is much better at trades then he is at drafting talent. If we land in a postion where we can draft Irving, and Kahn decides to go ahead and draft him, he can then work a Rubio trade. If we land at 3 or 4, then who knows what we’ll end up with.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 24, 2011 2:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

The problem with that is twofold

1. You run the risk that Rubio’s spanish-league troubles continue and we get little to nothing for him.
2. I want some immediate improvements and dealing Rubio for a starting 2/5* immediately improves us to the point that the Clippers won’t have a top-8 pick (IMO) and hopefully not a top 12 (i.e. I expect we could push for an 8 seed).

*Note that a starting 2/5 basically rules out Burks but allows such luminaries as Rudy Gay and Rodney Stuckey (two names that have been popular in the past year). The joy of potential like Rubio’s is that I believe we could get a starter and draft pick which might be Burks or (please god please) Biymbo with just a small tweak like adding Pek to the deal.

by zebano on Apr 25, 2011 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agreed entirely

Remember, Cool Hand Luke’s winning hand was a “hand full of nothing”. He won on the bluff. Not saying Rubio is definitively nothing, but it’s not a hand I’d want to get called on.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 25, 2011 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

I also think that if Rubio is going to be really good, its going to take him awhile.

I could easily see a rookie year where he struggles quite a bit, but shows signs of greatness.

I think platooning him with Irving could actually reduce his perceived value.

by Simitar on Apr 25, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I doubt it

His perceived value is already pretty low. I doubt they could get an acceptable offer for him at this point.

Wilson Chandler isn’t walking through that door.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

How does trying to get a starting 2/5 rule out Burks?

Burks is pretty much a straight up 2 and he sure looks like he has more talent than anybody we played at the 2 in a long time. I would think that he would be our starting 2 well before his rookie season was done, if he plays for us (although if Rambis is the coach, you can’t assume that a logical decision will be made). Does starting him bring immediate improvement—well, in this scenario we also add Irving so I think there would be at least some immediate improvement. Also, Rudy Gay is a 3.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 25, 2011 7:40 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Ohh the shame

I meant Rudy Fernandez… I’m really shooting low here but that probably tells you all you need to know about my opinion of our SGs (or more importantly the ability of our SFs to play SG).

by zebano on Apr 26, 2011 8:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

Re: Ruling out Burks

hmm that wasn’t worded well at all. I meant to say that if we want immediate improvement we’re better off getting a veteran than expecting Burks to be an immediate contributor. However I do think Burks’ ceiling is greater than Fernandez/Mayo/Stuckey.

by zebano on Apr 26, 2011 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here's my thoughts:

“Rubio, Biyombo, alley-oop jam” is a phrase that I would never get tired of hearing. But I wouldn’t draft Biyombo ahead of Irving under any circumstance. I might be willing to trade the rights to Irving to Detroit for the rights to Biyombo, Rodney Stuckey, and an unprotected 2012 first round pick though. I might ask for a little bit more than that even, but I’m not sure what else they have that is worth much to the Wolves.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Apr 24, 2011 2:56 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

12 Months before Clippergedon

And the last hope is Bismarck Biyombo. This is bound to end with Anthony Davis and Blake Griffin leading the Clippers to Mulitiple Championships.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Apr 23, 2011 5:33 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I guess I'm just saying I think Irving would compliment this team and Love quite well.

“Though they still own the rights to Ricky Rubio and sit on a very disappointing — but talented — Jonny Flynn, the Wolves clearly will have to consider taking Kyrie Irving, of course. But pairing up your best player with a complementary one makes sense, and if the Wolves decide to go that route, they’ll have to consider Bismack Biyombo”

He seems to be implying that Bismack would be a better compliment to our roster than Kyrie Irving. And, absent any trades, he is right. But, if we could draft Irving and then trade Rubio for a pick that turns into Biyombo or Alec Burks, that compliments Love and the rest of our roster pretty well, also.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 23, 2011 7:04 PM CDT reply actions  

Now you're talking...

I’ve had a few late-posts on previous threads advocating that we look to trade back into the Top 5-8 range to see if we can end up with either Rubio or Irving, but not both. And along the way, also end up with a player like Bismack Biyombo or Anderson Varajao. I think an elite post defender, which BB will be and Varajao already is, should be a requirement this off-season.

I think we’re a playoff team with a significant PG upgrade (Rubio or Irving), an elite defensive center (Biyombo or Varajao) and a play-off tested veteran wing (Battier, Prince). I think all three of these pieces are very attainable (we could already have two in our hands – Rubio and drafting Biyombo is already the bird-in-hand)

Rubio/Irving – Ridnour
Wes – Ellington/Webster
Prince/Battier – Beasley
Love – Tolliver
Varajao/Biyombo – Randolph/Pekovic

ClipperGeddon Sucks, but with this lineup and a new coach, I think it’s sting will be greatly minimized.

by foobee on Apr 23, 2011 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's where I take issue with that line of thinking:

NBA GM’s have been complaining for a while now about how weak this draft class is going to be. And you would suggest the Wolves acquire more picks in it? Will Biyombo be a nice player in the league someday? Possibly. Is he worth giving away the best point guard prospect from the best point guard class in the history of the NBA to date? It doesn’t seem likely. Only the Wolves twisted fortunes could see them in a situation where the thing that makes the most sense is doing the unthinkable. Haha. It’s kind of poetic really.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Apr 24, 2011 3:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Our rationales are the same.

a. You think it’s a BAD year to add picks because it’s a weak draft.
b. I think it’s a GOOD year to add picks because it’s a weak draft.

Really – IMO – both approaches are well-rationalized.

I don’t think we’re going to land a super-star by adding picks… I just think (see Clippers-Cavs deal) that teams are more apt to move picks at a discount this year. So I think we should strongly consider being buyers this year depending on how the lottery breaks and which teams will be selling. After all, while there are only 2-3 potential stars in this draft, I also see Kanter, Valenciunas, Burks, Brandon Knight as very useful players we could get for a discounted return compared to most years.

by foobee on Apr 24, 2011 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that trading back into the top of this draft will be relatively inexpensive.

But the reason it will be inexpensive is that GMs (and their scouting departments) are convinced that Kanter, Valanciunas, Burks, Knight, and pretty much anybody that will be drafted in the lottery this year that isn’t named Kyrie Irving, are also-ran NBA players at best. Biyombo definitely could be a diamond in the rough for a patient franchise – the constellation of factors that go into making a big man successful in the NBA sort of align with him, IMO – but what is the likelihood that enough GMs, with the wealth of information they have at their disposal, come to the wrong conclusion about him and allow us to snag him with their pick for the cost of, say, Jonny Flynn, and the #20 pick?

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Apr 24, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was just thinking about trading Rubio to get back in the lottery...

IF and only if we landed Irving. If our pick lands (inevitably) at 3 or 4, then, while I’m still for a trade that makes sense, there is no obvious route to take since we don’t have both Rubio and Irving.

I think Rubio has enough value to snag us a mid-lottery pick in a weak draft and we can use that to add talent at a position other than PG, which would be set with Irving aboard. Ideally, we could find a Center or a Shooting Guard with that pick. Biyombo, Kanter, Donatus, and Valenicius (please excuse my spelling) are all potentially good centers and Burks is potentially an above average shooting guard IMO, all of whom we would look at under this scenario.

This is really the only scenario I was referring to. Now, if something else pops up and it makes sense, I’m not against it.

by Are we cursed? on Apr 24, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

It may be bad relative to other years but...

I think it offers us a number of upgrades

1. I think Irving > Rubio mainly because he dishes well, can shoot and draws a lot of FTs.
2. Williams > Beasley… similar games but Williams while perhaps a little less physically gifted has the fire that Beast doesn’t.
3. Biyombo > any center on our roster just based on attitude.
4. Burks > any guard currently on our roster when it comes to drive & xxx whether that be dish, finish or draw contact. He needs to improve his shot but DX believes that’s an issue of him not always squaring up/balancing which should be fixable.
5. Kanter > any 5 on our roster.
6. Other Euro bigs… I’ll trust Rozone on this but all their DX reports have 1 big question mark (usually on D) which scares me a little… but that’s why we have Rozone yes?
7. Kemba > Flynn… I hope
8. Jimmer > Ellington offensively. Ellington has improved his handles but Jimmer’s are still better and Jimmer has insane range. His D rather scares me but Ellington doesn’t offer much there either.

by zebano on Apr 25, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

I understand what you're saying.

And I agree that there are a number of players available that would probably be upgrades over our current players. However, finding players that are likely to be upgrades over the players on a roster that won 17 games is a very low bar to set. In order to be successful through the draft you have to be able to select players that would be upgrades over the players on every team with a better record than yours – otherwise you’re not likely to be more successful than those teams. Which means for the Timberwolves to be successful they have to draft players that are better than anybody else has – Irving appears to fit that definition, but nobody else in this draft does.
I realize that is over-simplifying things, and hyperbolic, but the underlying argument is true. The only team to win a championship in the last 20 years without a significant edge in talent when compared to the rest of the league is the 2003-04 Detroit Pistons. (The 2005-06 Miami Heat are pretty close to qualifying as well, but I consider their roster to include the Finals referees as well which definitely pushes the talent level on that team to unmatched heights.)

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Apr 27, 2011 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

A fair point

but right now I’m searching for any reason to pay attention to this club and simply getting to the 25-30 win range would be nice (and still net the Clippers a lottery pick). I would really like to get some FAs /trades for real NBA players but the combination of Glen + Kahn makes me very nervous that this will happen. I think the reason that so many of us have jumped onto the Burks/Biymbo bandwagon is that they potentially could be stars in this league. A combination of new potential, a shorter rotation and a vet or two makes next year a lot more palatable.

I know it’s been said a lot of times around here that being in that 8th playoff spot is one of the worst places to be since you’ve usually committed your salary cap space to your players, won’t be getting a lottery pick and must be very creative if you want to add veteran talent to climb the ladder. However, two things occur to me:
1. Watching Indiana/Memphis is infinitely more appealing than another 3+ years of what we’re currently suffering through.
2. Memphis looks legit and there was only one game against the Bulls that I though Indiana didn’t have a chance to win. That gap between #1 and #8 is smaller than I thought. I’m not including the Hornets in this because they have their transcendent player in CP3. Another good comp would be Denver, no superstars, just good players from #1-#7; They lost 4-1 but could legitimately be up 3-2 right now with just a couple of breaks.

Finally, drafting better than other teams is ultimately the POBO + staffs job (though it ultimately falls on Kahn). If he can’t even do an average job, or delegate to someone competent then he needs to go.

by zebano on Apr 28, 2011 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Completely unrelated but I am incredibly frustrated by the reffing of the Mavs. Blazers game.

It really seemed like from the moment the blazers were down 23, the refs started rooting for the Blazers. Some of the calls, including a Chandler offensive foul call and the reversed out of bounds call with 1:00 left were completely pathetic. It is that kind of officiating performance, along with the history of the lottery that makes me think there is a chance the NBA is fixed.

Two Serbians One Ball.

by BeLoved842 on Apr 23, 2011 7:09 PM CDT reply actions  

It is at the very least contrived

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 24, 2011 6:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

RE Rambis and "True Talent"

The Wolves had 24 “pythagorian” wins (e.g., based off their points scored and points allowed, they “should” have won 24). They fell short of their theoretical mark by 7 games, which is the most in the NBA. Some of that is due to “luck” (we all know their record in close games), but some undoubtedly has to do with Rambis. Ordinarily, I just don’t think coaches matter THAT much in the NBA, but there are exceptions on both ends, and I suspect Rambis might be one of them.

Anyway, I think many of us are assuming Rambis is gonzo. Assuming they find a coach who doesn’t get in the way as much as Rambis did, and assuming their “luck” evens out a little bit more, maybe we can assume this team’s “true talent” is that of a 24 or 25 win team with the talent they currently have in hand.

Also good news is that point differential was accomplished with some nonsensical lineups, roles, and distribution of minutes, and maybe even that goes up a tick or three.

Moreover, assuming the Wolves identify that all those minutes given to Darko and Pek could probably be better utilized by a D-League stud (or a draft pick), and assuming Jonny Flynn’s minutes are consumed completely by either Rubio or (pretty please) Irving…and if they somehow streamline their roster composition by moving Beasley or Randolph for a SG….

Not sure what I’m getting at. Rambis is an awful head coach. The team’s thoroughly mediocre, but they’re probably not the worst team in the league, either. Moving from “wretched” to 35+ wins might be possible with a good draft pick, a good trade/signing, better minutes distributions, and (let’s hope) some improved play from younger players. And Kahn’s 2012 playoff expectations are likely yet another goalpost to be moved.

by jianfu on Apr 23, 2011 11:18 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Great post, jianfu

I think it’s pretty clear to all of us (any dissentors?) that even this current roster should have won 23-27 games. As that relates to Rambis, I’d be OK with losing more than that IF we were building a foundation with a new system or putting players in positions where long-term development trumps short-term production. But I just didn’t see that happening.

If you recall, I was probably the one blowing the trumpet the loudest at mid-season that we need to stay the course and more turn-over is a bad thing. But the second-half of the season just completely changed my mind. The odds for the top pick are nice, but I just didn’t see any positive foundation being laid. I’m far more forgiving about losses if I see them as (can I coin a term?) “productive losses.” These were just bad losses with nothing positive tied to them. So I’m now in favor in dismissing Rambis. I think with the additions a lot of us proposed, Rick Adelman probably wins 40 games with this team next year. I’d also be a big proponent of hiring Mike Brown, Sam Mitchell, Eric Musselman or Jeff Van Gundy. Give me a seasoned coach who knows how to win games. I understand the argument that no credible coach would work for Kahn, but I also buy into the idea that there are only 30 NBA jobs, so most good coaches would rather have one of those 30 jobs than sit out. I mean, Jeff Van Gundy is doing TV work PRIMARILY because the phone isn’t ringing. He’d happily take this job IMO. Would anybody reject a veteran of 11 head coaching seasons (.575 winning percentage) with only ONE losing season?

I’m not necessarily a proponent of hiring Jeff Van Gundy, per se, I’m just saying that I believe there are some experienced, talented head coaches who would come here and instantly add 8-10 wins per season, even with the current roster. Adelman, though, is my top choice followed by Sam Mitchell, Van Gundy, Mike Brown and Musselman. We’ve got good options here if Kahn would only explore them…

by foobee on Apr 24, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

A lot of injuries on a low talent team, plus your aguably 'best' player was injured

for the last 14. Beasley, your 2nd best player, was in and out with ankle and hip injuries.
Webster didn’t recover ‘til the last 5 games, Flynn had to be played into shape, you had 2 injured centers, and Koufos was shipped. What could any coach, realistically, have done?
None of your shooting guards was consistent; you’re wingless. This is a better roster, but it’s
a weak roster, and when you miss any important piece on a weak roster you will not win.

As long as the world is turning and spinning, we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes.

by BaylorWest on Apr 24, 2011 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

25 wins was all people really expected around here (30 for the real optimists).

And he couldn’t even come close to that. Look at what Musselman did with the YMCA team he was given. 17 wins is a coaching failure, even with this lot.

by Madison Dan on Apr 24, 2011 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Wolves

Had a bad beat and were hard to dance to.
In general I think that the player grades given here are in the right trend.
(Maybe too harsh on Pek – he was a rookie too.)
Maybe Rambis could have gotten an “F-”.
Thanks for the write-up.

by WeDraftedPooh on Apr 24, 2011 7:21 AM CDT reply actions  

Anyone hear Ryen Russilo on the NBA Today podcast?

Doing a plan for the Wolves. Defence of Kahn as well, worth a listen.

Dated 4/22.

Live And Stupid From England

by JonesTheCat on Apr 24, 2011 7:33 AM CDT reply actions  

I listen to the podcast often,

but Ryen isn’t always the voice of reasoned analysis you would hope. He’s more of an “eye test” and personal relationship kind of guy. Doesn’t make him wrong, but even he doesn’t see anything in the way of a bright and shiny future for the team.
We will be carrying way too large a payroll soon to allow for much other than great luck in the draft to improve the team.
And as much video as I know he watches, I don’t think anyone outside of a Wolves fan who’s watched way too many TOs and breakdowns on defense can appreciate how far this team has to go to break out of the the hellhole they are in!

Smug liberal elitist Uptown hipster since before last week...

by Dogpile on Apr 24, 2011 7:23 PM CDT reply actions  

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