Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Kobe Bryant Will Never Top Michael Jordan

Bigs

Last but not least, we have Los Bigs.  Here are the unadjusted scores:

 

  • Derrick Williams (big), 38.6
  • Marcus Morris, 33.96
  • Markeiff Morris, 29.67
  • Thomas Robinson, 29.19
  • Tristan Thompson, 28.92
  • Joshua Smith, 27.62
  • Terrence Jones, 25.91
  • Kenneth Faried, 24.52
  • Trey Thompkins, 24.36
  • Chris Singleton, 24.11
  • Reeves Nelson, 23.63
  • Gary McGhee, 20.71
  • Patric Young, 18.54
Adjusted scores and thoughts below the fold. 

Star-divide

 

  • Derrick Williams (big), 58.77
  • Marcus Morris, 51.31
  • Tristan Thompson, 46.42
  • Markeiff Morris, 45.39
  • Terrence Jones, 45.87
  • Joshua Smith, 45.44
  • Thomas Robinson, 43.49
  • Trey Thompkins, 40.74
  • Reeves Nelson, 40.10
  • Kenneth Faried, 39.91
  • Chris Singleton, 39.32
  • Patric Young, 34.26
  • Gary McGhee, 32.26
Overall:
  1. Kyrie Irving, 66.47
  2. Derrick Williams (big), 58.77
  3. Kemba Walker, 58.29
  4. Alec Burks, 54.355
  5. Norris Cole, 52.83
  6. Marcus Morris, 51.31
  7. Darius Morris, 51.03
  8. Reggie Jackson, 50.16
  9. Jimmer, 49.96
  10. Tu Holloway, 49.85
  11. Derrick Williams, 49.131
  12. Kawhi Leonard, 48.178
  13. Tristan Thompson, 46.42
  14. David Lighty, 46.344
  15. Terrence Jones, 45.87
  16. Marshon Brooks, 45.77
  17. Nolan Smith, 45.56
  18. Joshua Smith, 45.44
  19. Markeiff Morris, 45.39
  20. Isiah Thomas, 45.37
  21. Ashton Gibbs, 45.18
  22. Brandon Knight, 44.24
  23. Demitri McCamey, 44.01
  24. Jeremy Lamb, 43.96
  25. Travis Leslie, 43.778
  26. Kalin Lucas, 42.87
  27. Jordan Hamilton, 42.808
  28. Thomas Robinson, 43.49
  29. Jeff Taylor, 43.469
  30. Jon Diebler, 42.305
  31. Harrison Barnes, 41.835
  32. Damian Saunders, 41.688
  33. Klay Thompson, 41.49
  34. Austin Freeman, 41.275
  35. Trey Thompkins, 40.74
  36. Deshaun Thomas, 40.549
  37. Reeves Nelson, 40.10
  38. Kenneth Faried, 39.91
  39. Chris Singleton, 39.32
  40. Malcolm Lee, 39.026
  41. Justin Harper, 38.756
  42. Chandler Parsons, 38.3
  43. CJ Leslie, 38.24
  44. Tyler Honeycutt, 37.872
  45. Elias Harris, 36.47
  46. Scotty Hopson, 34.706
  47. Kyle Singler, 34.549
  48. Patric Toung, 34.26
  49. Gary McGhee, 32.26
  50. Josh Selby, 31.75
I still have to monkey with perceived value and issues related to roles and usage between college and the pros, but here are my initial thoughts about the full weighted scores and all 3 positions:
  • This draft is awful.  We don't even know if some of these guys will be there after the declaration deadline.  In terms of wing players, there is damn near nobody to pick from.  Alec Burks and....Derrick Williams if you think he can play the 3.  Beyond that, it's a crap shoot.  Although, the chances of someone like Kawhi Leonard, David Lighty, Marshoon Brooks, and Jordan Hamilton being as good as Wes Johnson are fairly solid. 
  • If you are a team that can afford to play Williams as a 4, then this is probably a 2 man draft.  I think Irving is clearly the best player, but there are legitimate concerns about his lack of playing time and it's not insane to think that, because of the injury, Williams is in the same tier as Kyrie (Williams was actually hurt and played through it).  That being said, if the Wolves get the #1 pick and they pass on Irving, they're insane. 
  • I'm all aboard the Bismack Biyombo Irrational Exuberance Express (BBIEE...or BB IEEEEEEEE!--It's a fun thing to yell when you dunk on the 8 foot hoop at the Y), but I'm not sure how we (we being the non-scouting types) know if he is really that much different than Patric Young? What about Dallas Lauderdale (well, he probably rebounds a lot better than Mr. Lauderdale)? Carry on and continue to inflate the bubble.  BIYOMBOOOOOO!!!
  • First guess at how a tiered approach would work for the Wolves: 
    •  
      • Tier One: Irving
      • Tier Two: Williams, Walker, Burks
      • Tier Three: Ugh
      • Tier BIYOMBOOOOO!!!: Bismack
  • I would have zero problem with the Wolves taking a flier on Josh Selby with the 20th pick.  The guy had the worst possible year for a number of reasons. Is he as good as someone like Avery Bradley (who I'd have no problem with the Wolves trading for, BTW)?  No clue, but #1 Rivals recruits (LeBron, Howard, Gerald Green!, Greg Oden, B-Easy, BJ Mullens!, John Wall, Selby) are typically worth at least the 20th pick.  BTW: I'd place Austin Rivers at the top of this draft board if the NBA didn't have stupid early entry rules. He could likely step on the Wolves tomorrow and be their 2nd best player.  The Wolves really better hope that the NBA ups its early entry requirements with the new CBA or they are really, really, really going to miss out on an extravaganza next year. 
  • There is going to be a gigantic dead zone in this year's draft.  One could make a case that picks 3-20 are filled with guys that should go from 20 and above in a "normal" draft.  I still think 17 win teams take the BPA, but we'll just have to wait and see what happens.  Is Alec Burks better than someone like Paul George? Probably not, but there he is near the top of the draft.  And so goes the 2011 Draft....the last draft before Clippergeddon. 
  • I can't say it enough, if Jimmer slips past Utah and Phoenix, get ready for Jimmermania. They won't be able to help themselves and, to be fair, he'd probably be the BPA at that point. 
Well, that about does it for this post.  I'll post the final scores as soon as we find out exactly who is in and who is out.  Until then, let's keep the BBIEE going! BIYOMBOOOOOOO!!!!!

Comment 528 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Surprised Faried is so far down there...

I wouldn’t mind him with the #20 pick. At least we’s know we have an elite rebounder on the floor at all times.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 7:17 AM CDT reply actions  

Is the plan with Rambis right now...

Simply wait until all the other coaches begin getting fired? Pretty good for Taylor if no teams are looking for coaches right now, but we might end up having a tragedy of the commons situation soon.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 7:20 AM CDT reply actions  

That makes sense

After all, Rambis was always known for his offense in LA. All we ever heard about him while he was in LA was that he was a master of the triangle but that it was good that Phil had his back when it came to defense, otherwise he would’ve been chopped liver. (end sarcasm)

Seriously, for a guy who supposedly knows defense, Rambis never seems to understand the value of guarding the three point line. Despite having coached in the modern NBA for a long time, he is still stuck in the past, in a time before teams shot the 3 pointer with consistency and accuracy.

by oblivionspocket on Apr 25, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Timberwolves in the playoffs?

The other night while watching Grizz v Spurs Reggie Miller criticized Memphis defense. He said it was a bad rotation to rotate to McDyess 15 feet from the hoop and leave Ginobli wide open in the corner for a three. Ladies and gentlemen, your Minnesota Timberwolves.

p.s. Maybe we should hire Reggie to coach the team. Just from that one comment it seems he knows more about defense than Rambis.

by Achilles Fang 1 on Apr 25, 2011 6:40 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Takes a 3pt shooter

to know the effect of 3pt shooting. Strange.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Best Defender Available

Perhaps the Pups should create their draft board putting double weighted value on the ability to defend. My spider sense tells me that Singleton & Kawhi would move up on that board. Oh, and if you are buying the hype (why not), BIYOMBOOOOOOOO!

by O-Train on Apr 25, 2011 7:22 AM CDT reply actions  

I disagree with a few things said
One could make a case that picks 3-20 are filled with guys that should go from 20 and above in a “normal” draft.

I honestly don’t believe anyone could make this case while keeping a straight face. 10 and above? Yeah, I could see someone making that case.

BTW: I’d place Austin Rivers at the top of this draft board if the NBA didn’t have stupid early entry rules.

No way. Rivers over Irving? I don’t really want an undersized volume scorer over Irving. I think Rivers has proven himself to be the #3 recruit at best over the past month (behind Davis and McAdoo) and possibly #5 (behind Gilchrist and Beal).

Although, the chances of someone like Kawhi Leonard, David Lighty, Marshoon Brooks, and Jordan Hamilton being as good as Wes Johnson are fairly solid.

Leonard has the potential to be as good as Wes or better… but there is quite a bit of Wes hate on this website that is over the top. Throw stats at me all you want, there have been rookies who have struggled, are 22+, and far better circumstances than Wes had to deal with his rookie season, and have gone on to become good rotation players – some fringe all-stars. Am I expecting Wes to be a fringe all-star? No. But I believe throwing him in the Lightly/Brooks/Hamilton.

I agree that the Biyombo hype train has gotten out of control, especially from people who appear to only see the good qualities in him. I also agree that this is a two man draft, and that the Wolves are a team that should think real hard about taking a chance on Selby in the mid-first.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 8:21 AM CDT reply actions  

To finish the thought I skipped apparently

No. But I believe throwing him in the Lightly/Brooks/Hamilton
… is flat out wrong.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

The "Wes becoming a solid rotation player" ship has probably sailed...

I just don’t think anyone can come up with any comparable examples. The closest that exists is probably Caron Butler, but even that one is dubious.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Meadowlark Lemon's

best years were in his late forties, so . . .

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 25, 2011 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Trends are meant to be broken, Blakely

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

lol

That should probably be your new signature.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Except I spelled your name wrong. My bad.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

After 1 season? Are you kidding me?

Dude was injured for much of summer, played for an awful coach, and was changing positions… and you think the ship has already sailed?

Wow.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

I think this is one of those comments that will be fun to look at in 5 years once it has been proven wrong.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or completely right

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ailuridae is a big fan of this excercise...

And this is the point where he invites you to give an example of someone of Wes’ productivity and age becoming a solid role player in the NBA.

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bruce Bowen

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Offensively

You might be dead on.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 25, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting...

Hard comparison because Bowen was a 26 y/o rookie in 97 ( he played 1 minute in 96). Offensively they might be comparable, but defensively Bruce Bowen never had a defensive rating anywhere close to Wes Johnson’s awful 112 he posted last year.

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Wes is capable of being as good as Bruce Bowen

defensively. But given his performances against Kobe this year, its clear that Wes can be a pretty good defender. Whether that’s a question of motivation or learning more about NBA defense or something else, I’m not sure. But he clearly has the tools to at least be an above average defender, in my mind.

Of course, he’ll have to get quite a bit dirtier to play like Bowen.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

This seems to fall in line with your "trends are meant to be broken" mantra...

You highlight the one game where Kobe shot 6 of 17 vs Wes (Kobe’s standard efficiency would have him go 7 or 8 of 17 from the field) as evidence that Wes can be a pretty good defender.

Personally I tend to side with the 81 games Wes played rather than the one game where Wes forced Kobe to miss 1 or 2 extra shots.

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or the first time he played Kobe, when Kobe went

8-of-27 from the field. That’s 14-of-44 total, (or 32%), for a guy who normally shoots 45% from the floor. That’s noteworthy in my book.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd be more impressed by his defense against Kobe,

if the Lakers played like they actually had to exert themselves to beat us.

It kind of pisses me off watching them loaf around the court for 3.5 quarters of a close game, and then turn it on for 5 or 6 minutes and beat us.

by Simitar on Apr 25, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

No doubt he had Kobe's number this year

didn’t they work out together last summer? That may have helped.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sure it did.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then hopefully

he treated this year as one giant workout against the rest of the NBA.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not a huge Wes apologist

But look at this in a little different way, if you will. There are plenty of players that have had large fluctuations in productivity based on changing teams, right? How would it be so different if Wes was playing his natural position (I don’t buy him as a 2, he’s a 3) in a different system for a different coach? I think you at least have to take those things into account before declaring his career dead at the tender age of 34 (or however old he is). Again, I’m not a huge fan of Wes, but I don’t think it’s so incredibly improbable that he can find a role in the NBA.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 25, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think he's dead...

There’s a very good chance Wes could carve out a Jarvis Hayes like career in the NBA.

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Jarvis Hayes?

Good comparison that makes me want to weep.

by Vlade on Apr 25, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

To address something here directly

There are plenty of players that have had large fluctuations in productivity based on changing teams, right?

Well in an absolute sense there have been plenty of players this is true for? But why is that? Because there have been a whole lot of players! But as a percentage of players overall who change teams it is a very uncommon thing for players to basically “grow wings” when going to a new team. Now, this blog, the front pagers and comments seem to be oblivious to that fact hence Darko Dimension and Martell Webslinger and the ilk but looking at the whole of NBA players and looking at their per minute productivity it is very uncommon for players to become radically better once they have reached physical maturity and been in the league for a while.

by Ailuridae on Apr 27, 2011 4:39 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Most of us wanted Evan Turner who would show up on that same list...

Generally speaking, I’m not a big PER guy. But I could get behind Francisco Garcia or Desmond Mason as a potential comp. Stephen Jackson probably represents Wes’ ceiling.

Still, if Wes ends up being Garcia or Mason, I don’t know if he would fall under into the category of “solid role player.” I guess it’s just semantics at that point.

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just because there's no precedence...

…doesn’t mean it’s unlikely for Wes to be better than the “norm” and therefore claim the ship has sailed.

How many of those guys had the setbacks and roadblocks Wes had?

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well I did say the ship has "probably" sailed

So sure there’s still a chance that Wes might be a player of average production, it just doesn’t seem likely at this point. And the sheer fact that it’s even debatable whether Wes might achieve the same production of Desmond Mason or Francisco Garcia probably says all we need to know about Wes’ current value.

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

That is where I disagree

For me the argument isn’t whether he will be an average player, but more so if he will be an above average player.

To squabble about whether or not he will be average is silly. You can site any stat you want, but he played great defense at times, dropped some big scoring games, and made some bigs moves (he also showed a very nice drive and dish repertoire late in the season). The skill set it at a level where there is no way I could see him being below average.

At this point it is more of a question if he can use that talent more consistently and become very good, or just stay the course and be an average starter.

by TO12 on Apr 25, 2011 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably most of them

bad coaches, injuries, guarding guys you can’t handle (AKA: Playing out of position). There are a lot of bad to mediocre coaches in this league. I’ll bet if you asked a random sample of NBA players, they’d probably say they get injured almost once a month, if not more. And defensive rules are set up to favor the offensive player. Those are more common struggles than you give them credit for.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

I forgot to make my last point:

If a player is going to become a ‘good’ player, then they should be able to overcome a little adversity. If a player is going to become ‘great’ then a little adversity shouldn’t stop them from doing anything (Blake Griffin, for example. Severe injury and terrible coaching/ownership). It’s the players who will be ‘average’ at best that struggle when put to the test.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Remind us of his Little Orphan Annie background, again?

Last we heard Wesley Johnson didn’t perform that well at his first school and then transferred, so he had to sit out a year. He had injuries in both his last college season and then his rookie year in the NBA.

How many of “those guys” – meaning the list you provided? – had setbacks and roadblocks comparable to that? Uh, Steve Smith obviously had much worse injury trouble over his career, and really the stuff you’re talking about is basically pretty vanilla.

Wesley Johnson was older and not particularly more NBA-ready than other rookies in his class; is that the tale of woe you’re referring to? Or what?

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I appreciate the effort

but that list of players doesn’t make me feel any better about our 4th pick in what was considered a 4 player draft.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Also...

Find me a good comparison for an 18-19 year old 6’8+Center not born in the US with no offensive game.

Ailuridae opinion-generator processing information…

Processing…

Processing…

Processing…

http://bkref.com/tiny/ZZD62

Oh, well there’s no precedence so therefore Biyombo is destined to be like those players. Let’s ride his hype train!

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

“no precedence” of them exploding

Man I suck at finishing my thoughts today. Rough weekend has my brain out of whack apparently.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

My vote for depressing Johnson comp

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=foyera01&y1=2007&p2=johnswe01&y2=2011

Before the Wes apologists jump all over this, yes, they’re completely different players who play different positions. The point here though is we got less production from rookie Wes than we did rookie Foye. Whatever your rationalization for that—mine is that Wes, like Foye, just isn’t very good (the rosy view is probably that Wes wasn’t optimized properly/was dealing with bad circumstances)—it really signifies how terrible a season this was for us in terms of hope for the future/player development.

by WolvesFan03 on Apr 25, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Foye may be one of the more hopeful comparisons

Many of the players that experienced a similar level of production as Wes at his age were out of the league within a few years. Does that brighten things up for you?

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 25, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

That does change my perspective

Now I can hope for an endless parade of Randy Foyes and Wes Johnsons so that I can have the pleasure of watching their below average play span more than a decade rather than having them wash out after just a few short blissful seasons.

by WolvesFan03 on Apr 25, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

agree on the Selby pick with our memphis selection

worth a flier. I guess when I look at it, I see three basic players the wolves need to slide other players into better situations to succeed.

In no particular order:
PG who can set up teammates and actually run a fast break.
Defensive center who can block shots and not take up 15 offensive possessions each damn game.
SG who can penetrate and hit a pull up jumper and get to the line (nice shot from behind the arc would be nice, but that might be asking a bit much this year).

Kind of sad really when you think about all of the assets that have been wasted.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 25, 2011 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

If the new CBA raises the minimum age then the 2012 Draft will be worse than this one.

The new rookie rule will most likely raise the requirements for rookies to two years out of high school. That means there will be no true freshman in next years draft.

The first three picks will be Sullinger, Jones, and Barnes and then a lot of players who were not good enough to come out this year.

We would be better off stocking up on 2013 picks

by xraraavis on Apr 25, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

For me it’s

Tier1: Kyrie, Williams
Tier 2: Walker, Burks, Biyomboooooooooooooooooo

How do you feel about Reggie Jackson @ 20th SnP? He seems to score good and figures to have a chance of being available there…

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 25, 2011 8:42 AM CDT reply actions  

Zero problem with Jackson at 20

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

20th Pick

Given the makeup of the Wolves roster, I expect this pick to be traded or used to stash a foreign player. We’ve got too many young players not worthy of NBA playing time and adding another would do more harm than good.

If we trade our lottery pick, obviously this changes.

by Andy G on Apr 25, 2011 8:51 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

That's probably right...

Hopefully Tony Ronzone and/or Pete Philo knows something we don’t about Nikola Mirotic, Donatas Motiejunas, or Lucas Nogueira.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mirotic looks like he might be a player

I still like Vesely, but he’ll be long gone by the Memphis pick.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Valanciunas is kind of a crazy prospect...

I could see him being Pau Gasol or I could see him being Primoz Brezec.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would not spend a top 4 pick on an 18 year old

big who is not going to come to the NBA for a while, and isn’t ready to play in the league. Everyone is a little excessively high on him in my opinion. I’ve watched him a bit; he has some skills for an 18 year old, but he isn’t a dominant physical force, and would get absolutely killed in the NBA right now. He averaged a foul every 5 minutes in his EL games. He isn’t strong enough, nor is he athletic enough to compete now.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not necessarily disagreeing with you

but doesn’t

not going to come to the NBA for a while

take care of the

isn’t ready to play in the league

problem?

I don’t know if there is a player in this draft, Irving included, that will improve the Wolves chances of winning games on Day 1. Stashing someone for a year or two might make some sense in this draft, for what the Wolves have to accomplish next season (avoid Clippergedden Meltdown).

There are also some potential veterans to be had via trading our high pick. A few candidates I could see being available for Derrick Williams would be Monta Ellis, Anderson Varejao, and Kevin Martin.

by Andy G on Apr 25, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

There was a rumor...

That the Wolves were talking about an Anderson Varejao salary dump deal with the Cavs at the trading deadline. I wonder if that would still be on the table.

Who says no to Varejao for Darko and Wes?

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Cleveland

He’s a bargain.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Thunder and the Cavs were discussing a Varejao deal BEFORE he got injured...

Probably something revolving around Jeff Green.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Really?

I can’t imagine why the Cavs would do that.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

That was from Marc Stein, who's generally pretty reliable...

I think the Cavs are in full “accumulate young asset” mode. How bout this EiM, do you say no to…

Wes and Beasley for Varejao

(no way the Wolves do that deal, but I just want to see what EiM thinks of Varejao)

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would absolutely do that

And the Wolves are dumb if they don’t. Getting a defensive 5 who brings energy and is under reasonable contract for the next 4 seasons for a guy who is going to be overpaid after another year and isn’t that good (Beasley) and a non-descript wing player (Johnson). Yes please.

I doubt the Cavs do it, but I would every day and twice on Sundays.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I probably do that deal as well...

But it’s hard to see David Kahn giving up on the allure of “potential”

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'll chime in and say I'd do that too

Webster > Wes (Martel can dribble) and Beast is too inconsistent on offense while almost never providing any defense.

by zebano on Apr 25, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I definitely do that too

Especially since Beasley is about to become expensive. Even now, without Beasley’s extension, Verejao only made 2.3 million more this season than Beasley (per BB-reference).

by WolvesFan03 on Apr 25, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Value...

Interesting trade as Varejao probably contains the exact skill set that is undervalued in the NBA, while Beasley contains the exact productivity that is overvalued.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Verajo is pefect counterpart for Love

just saying, I’d trade Beast for him easily, or Wes/Darko/Webb

Or Rubio whatever

Anything but Love and a top 2 pick in this draft

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Cavs would do this.

Young chips are easier to sell to a destroyed fan base.

by TheH on Apr 25, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably both Kahn and Rambis

if they’re here, because getting rid of Darko and Wes more indictment of their ability to choose and develop players.

(But if they have half a brain between them, they’ll realize such a trade might help cover up past mistakes).

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 25, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I still can't believe there's a chance Rambis might be staying...

That just seems crazy to me.

That being said, you gotta think Kahn realizes the inevitably of his departure. He’s probably willing to trade anyone if he thinks it might increase the Wolves win total and his chance of keeping his job.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lol!

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's my new Signature

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

For Kahn

what do you think increases his chances of surviving beyond next season:

  • sitting tight with His Guys and adding one veteran starter, hoping that a new coach can squeeze 30 wins out of them, next year; or
  • admitting mistakes and spending on proven NBA talent?

by Andy G on Apr 25, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

The weird thing is, even in that press conference...

It seemed like Kahn viewed “Height” as one of the main determinants of our potential for improvement.

There exists a VERY real chance that our offseason looks like this…

1) Rubio doesn’t come over
2) we use the 4th pick on Biyombo
3) the 20th pick is traded for Raja Bell
4) No free agents are signed
5) Mark Jackson becomes our new coach.
6) We patiently wait for Kahn to finally get fired before the Wolves hand over a top 5 pick in Clippergeddon.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

As crazy as it sounds...

…there’s a very real chance that this year wasn’t rock bottom.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Don't interject reality

I’m in full blown irrational hope mode.

by zebano on Apr 25, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

He also forgot to add

7) Love doesn’t resign

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

and team moves

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Love's going to resign

Maybe against his wishes, but he’s going to resign. Even if another team offers Love a max contract in restricted free agency, Glen Taylor and Co will match.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

he could do a one-year RFA contract

like David Lee.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

But David Lee would have signed wiht the Knicks if they offered him a contract

In the latest incarnation of the CBA, have any potential max restricted free agent spassed up that contract to leave his team?

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not that I'm aware of

If the Wolves throw max money at him, it will be difficult for him to say no. There is precedent, however, for players taking shorter max deals. There are usually, however, special circumstances. For example, L. James, D. Wade, and C. Anthony all took those 3 year deals so they could re-up before the new CBA.

Love could ask for a shorter max contract to allow himself an out. Who knows what the new CBA will hold, but if I’m him, I would take a short (1-2) year max deal and give myself the chance to walk. I wouldn’t let these clowns ruin my career.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Of the 3 options...

1) Testing Free Agency
2) Signing full max deal with the Wolves
3) 3 year max with the Wolves

You’re right in that option 3 is probably the most likely at this point.

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is the gigantic worry

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Elton Brand

Didn’t Elton Brand turn down a mutli year RFA offer and do a one year and then cash in?

by jama on Apr 25, 2011 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

SnP - Do Taylor and Moor have any inkling of the mindset of their fanbase?

I am a fairly die-hard fan. I’ve watched most of their games during the post-Garnett years. I have paid for NBA League Pass Broadband so I could watch the non-FSN games. I visit a bunch of Wolves/NBA web sites on a daily basis.

That said, if Kahn & Rambis are back next fall, I’m not sure how many games I’ll watch next year.

I have just really lost faith in the leadership of this team. Given the amount of coherent thought and number of wise moves that would be required to build a playoff team here, I just cannot feel very optimistic without leadership changes.

Watching the same f@#$#@$ idiotic FO moves and coaching moves lead to handing a #1 overall pick to the Clips is probably just more than I care to sit through. Hobbies are supposed to be fun.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 25, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm with you

I highly doubt I’ll renew League Pass broadband next year. There’s no hope, until there’s hope and right now, there is no hope.

I live in Chicago and am seriously contemplating a full jump to the Bulls.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's an easy team to like

One mega star, 2-3 good starters, the white 3-point bomber, and playing frenetic defense.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 25, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

that would seal the deal

and it would easy my moral qualms to have been onboard before Dwight Howard joins up.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Where in Chicago?

I’m here, too, now. My hoops conversion may take me further south, however. I like the Thunder (pace CJ).

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm living the dream in the West Loop/UIC/Greektown

neighborhood. West of Halsted, North of the interstate.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not too far from the United Center then.

We looked in the Little Italy area, but nothing was available (at least in our budget). I’m glad someone else refers to an interstate as such. What is with this “expressway” term?

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, I could walk to the United Center

More importantly, I live a block away from our future mayor (who I think is only living temporarily in my neighborhood).

My wife and I rent, which makes things more affordable, at least in terms of accumulated wealth, of which we have none.

Where are you living?

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

We looked a little in your area too

but ended up further west in Oak Park. We’re right on Austin, so crossing the street puts us in Chicago proper (and Columbus Park).

Say hi to Rahmbo if you see him.

Any good watering holes in your neighborhood?

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

well, I'm not a beer expert

but Jak’s Tap has a ton of beer and is a nice, quiet neighborhood bar.

It’s on Jackson and Peoria (two blocks west of Halsted).

If you find yourself over here, I’ll give you a tour.

littleboxes@geneticmail.com

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks, LB!

Are you just being modest again?

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

no modesty here

I don’t know a hop from a whatever the hell else is in beer. I do like to drink it.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're going to have to

do some homework if you’re going to hang with the beer nerds here. I have friends who grow their own hops and harvest yeast.

That’s not to say you have to do that stuff to truly enjoy beer. It just kind of sorts the enthusiasts from the obsessives.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jak's does appear to offer "tasting classes"

the instructors get paid pretty well too. Guess I picked the wrong pedagogic field.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Looks pretty good!

St Bernadus on tap means I’ll be making a pilgrimage there at some point. Oh Bernie, how I’ve missed you.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I smile

just thinking about the Abt 12.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

That would be the other BiS, I assume?

viz, the Beer-induced Smile.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Since the first is funnier

and was established first, we can call this stat the BiS2.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Noted

It’s unfortunate that I’m starting to see “bis” more and more on the CH threads. Rambis; Bismack; BiS1 and BiS2. Perhaps I need a break.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why not take a vacation

to lovely Bismarck?

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 26, 2011 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mind your own bisiness!

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 26, 2011 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's probaby not the

best place for bisexuals.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 27, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I defer to your authority

"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it happened or not." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Apr 27, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

But I bet

they have good biscuits.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 27, 2011 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll bet

there’s bisexual fornication!

Wait… I don’t think I get this game….

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 27, 2011 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or

forsexual binication!

I think I don’t get this game either.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 27, 2011 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

and bistros

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 27, 2011 11:07 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Proprietor of "Ridiculous Upside" lives there.

It’s a nice little town. If you go, get a “Purple Cow” and a “Pizza Burger, Flying Style” at the Big Boy, which is unlike any other Big Boy franchise.

by feral on Apr 27, 2011 7:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah I'm going down to Chicago for college next year

and that jump to the bulls would a really easy one to make.

by Bad News Wolves on Apr 25, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Which school, if I may ask?

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 5:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm right there with you

It’s getting to be less and less fun, even when you decide to take it as a joke (which it has become).

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mr. Coyote,

could you please tell me how the Clips aquired your #1 overall pick? I missed that.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 25, 2011 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not sure if you are joking

Clipps get our unprotected first round pick in summer of 2012 due to the absolutely awful Marko Jaric / Sam Cassell trade about 900 years ago. Another McHale special.

I am just assuming it will be #1 overall given the Wolves lottery luck. They’ve never moved up even a single position and never gotten the #1 pick, so it stands to reason they’ll win the lottery when the Clipps are the recipient.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 25, 2011 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow that was a long time ago.

Thanks for the info.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 25, 2011 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

that's because we haven't been given

the year’s of playoff berths and success that is used to salve those type of wounds. In fact, we may have been given gravel instead. Not really the same thing at all.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 26, 2011 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Feral. I'm sure that's not the only wound of yours that hasn't closed.

"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it happened or not." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Apr 26, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

The scurvy tends to make them re-open.

This wouldn’t be the first time a “sea lawyer” analogy about fans and foremast hands has occurred to me.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

WHAT!?

If this past year was not rock bottom, then I may very well change my fanship. Are we not sure that a decent coach could have gotten more wins out of this current group than Mr Rambis did?

When did I become a masochist?

by frankenhoops on Apr 27, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rock bottom

Wolves are one of the 4 worst teams in basketball next year. Love refusing to sign extension forcing trade. Rubio still in Europe with additional regression/stagnation. Jazz suck enough to push their draft pick out another year. Clippers get top 5 pick in stocked draft class.

Rebuild starts over with no Love, Jefferson, no first rounder and no real assets except what we can get in return for Love. Rambis still coaching Kahn still POBO Taylor really thinking about thinking about doing something. Perhaps even considering thinking about eventual action.

by Airete on Apr 27, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I put the initial odds of this happening

at 50%. If you allowed for a mid-season Rambis firing, I’d bump the odds much higher.

by TheH on Apr 27, 2011 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

As someone who didn't see Wes play after the All-star break

I would not do that. Make it Darko and Flynn and I’d do it with my eyes closed but Varejao … I’m not sold he’s better than Tolliver and big enough to play the Center (or is he playing Center for Cleveland all the time and thus making me look rediculous right now?)

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 25, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

yes he's the center

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Crap

Still don’t like him next to Love and not sure he’s better than Tolliver

by Wim (Belgium) on Apr 25, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tolliver isn't very good

at much of anything. He’s below average on just about everything, but just high enough to still get a small contract and look good compared to the rest of the squad. Varejao is in a completely different league (though, ironically, they play in the same league) than Tolliver. Tolliver’s best skill is taking charges. That’s not exactly a ‘best skill’ that makes you more than a role player.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do you really tink so?

If he had an established role (only Love did-because he played his own role) with established minutes he’s a great 6-7th man and plays multiple positions.

"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it happened or not." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Apr 26, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe it's semantics

but “great” 6-7th man might be a stretch for Tolliver, when you consider that guys like Jason Terry, Lamar Odom, JJ Redick, Thaddeus Young, (pick a Denver Nugget), etc. come off the bench.

I tend to agree with Mplax’s take about Tolliver being a bit overrated by this board (I think that’s his take, at least). But, I do like what he brings off the bench and think that his average ability combined with his seemingly-comfortable role as purely a bench player makes him a worthwhile player to have around. In bench minutes, he is definitely useful.

by Andy G on Apr 26, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

....and....

…although in broad terms of the NBA reality, AT is an average bench player, so on our team that would rank him about 4th.

by Boss10 on Apr 26, 2011 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

AT's real 'skill' is that he cares

He’s one of those guys that will embarrass better players into playing harder, we need those kinda guys.

by timmuggs on Apr 26, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is exactly my opinion

In describing Tolliver, I would not use the word ‘great’ except maybe to describe his personality (or at least…. his tv personality). Seems like a really nice guy. But he’s a below average basketball player surrounded by many even more below average basketball “players” and it makes him look better than he his. I think he’s on a very reasonable contract and I think he would make a nice role player if we ever turn into a good team. That said, I don’t think he is or he ever will be more than an 8-9th man.

He’s good at taking screens, but he’s pretty bad at defense in general. I can’t stand watching him rebound as he is terrible at boxing out. Despite that, he still manages to have a positive effect on the team rebounding when he’s in. How he does it? I have no clue. But watching him box out is painful. He’s also bad at creating his own offense (though he did surprise me for the last week or two). That pretty much just leaves an energy guy who can shoot the three and take charges.

Sorry, there’s my Tolliver rant. But Andy G summed up my thoughts on him nicely. Nice guy, glad we have him, very overrated.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Would you believe........great 8th 9th man?

Missed it by THAT much.

"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it happened or not." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Apr 27, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great 8-9th man?

Absolutely not.

Average to ok 8-9th man?

Yeah.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 27, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, yes, and yes

I would absolutely try to make a deal with the 2-4 pick for any of those guys.

They can’t stash a top pick. They have to use that asset one way or another to get better next season.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's the reason why

I really hope we’re at least in the Top 2. I don’t want Williams for this team, because of the logjam at combo/power forward, but he might have reasonably-high trade value.

As someone who watched quite a bit of Rubio, how do you think he and Kevin Martin would play together?

by Andy G on Apr 25, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I acutally would be really excited about Williams...

If it means we spend more time with Kevin Love at the 5

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

While we're considering all possibilities...

I think Kevin Love at the 5 comes into play if the Wolves can arrange a big trade for Josh Smith. Bill Simmons mentioned this possibility in that playoffs preview podcast and I think Zgoda has mentioned J-Smoove quite a bit, too.

by Andy G on Apr 25, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well

Martin is a great compliment to a guy like Rubio because he does what Rubio doesn’t, which is score efficiently.

I wanted them to trade for Martin last year when the Kings made him available, because he’s an ideal volume scorer. He scores in the 2 ways you need to to be efficient and valuable as a scorer in the NBA: 3s and FTs. (He led the league in made FTs this season. Can you imagine?)

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Another thing about Rubio-Martin...

is that their collective ability to handle the rock could help Wes Johnson settle into a spot-up shooter/defender role at the 3. Assuming we have a new offensive system, this seems like a potentially-nice mix of offensive talent on the perimeter, surrounding our collection of power forwards inside.

by Andy G on Apr 25, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is Martin on the block or something?

I was under the impression that Houston really likes him. On a team that values efficiency as much as they do, I doubt they undervalue him. If anything, they probably overrate him.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 25, 2011 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

That could be

I just look at veteran teams that struggle to make the playoffs and figure that rebuilding could be in the cards. Didn’t Derrick Williams have some crazy-high efficiency numbers? Maybe Houston would value him very high as a prospect?

by Andy G on Apr 25, 2011 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

On a lot of other teams, I wouldn't be surprised to see him shopped around

But Houston seems to take the path of collecting a lot of good players and finding value. I think if they ever flip Martin it will be as part of a package for a superstar.

It just doesn’t seem like Houston takes the traditional “rebuilding” path, where they strip everything down and start over.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 25, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Of course

A Rubio-Martin-Johnson-Love lineup absolutely requires a defensive 5 who can really protect the rim. Even then, the defense remains a problem.

Still, you can’t solve everything at once.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's better than nothing

I still don’t love that team, but it would probably be a 30 win team

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is one of the frustrating things to me

I sincerely believe that a better GM could have turned the assets he started with into a situation where they still had Rubio and Love, Martin, and a guy like Varajao or even Josh Smith by now.

Instead, they have what they have, and could no longer get that done.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Watching the Sixers last night

Wouldn’t you almost just take Holiday and Curry at this point? How good could we be with that backcourt. Rubio I think will be better than Holiday, but even at that I think I’d take the tradeoff to have that backcourt right now.

Holiday is pretty sweet…

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd take almost anything at this point

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Holiday is great...

But I still take Curry. A Love/Curry PnR would be incredible.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I love Holiday

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 25, 2011 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well Mirotic might not be coming over for a while...

from hoopshype:

Nikola Mirotic: "I wouldn’t go to the NBA this summer even if I’m a Top 5 pick. I like it a lot here, I’m very comfortable and, like I said, I have a lot of challenges here.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right

Which is why he might be available at the 20th pick.

And he’s right. He’s really only emerged in the last few months, and still gets only limited playing time with Real. He needs to get better.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, probably better for us that he has no intention of coming over

I wonder how that Brazlian guy is. Maybe he’s friends with our other Brazillan.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd pass at #20 then...

…unless someone good drops to us, I say trade it for a 2012 first rounder. Much higher assumed value and eases the Clippergeddon loss of the #1 overall.

by Boss10 on Apr 25, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, #20 in 2012 would be more valuable

but because of that, we couldn’t make that trade. Maybe we could get #30 in 2012? Would you do that?

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Apr 25, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I should say

not that we know exactly what pick it would be right away.

I just think the only team that would trade for the #20 pick in this draft is one of the elite teams, that thinks someone like Jimmer could help right away. (Lakers, Heat, etc) meaning you’d be looking at 27-30 for a return.

That might actually be a fair value trade. I don’t know.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Apr 25, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably not....

…I’m guessing it would have to be #25 or better (considering time value of… draft picks?)… I am only interested in about 15-16 picks this year and I’m seriously doubting anyone good falls to us.

Outside of those guys, there are are a few bubbles guys, but hardly worth more than a future second rounder in most drafts.

As some have opined, outside of the top 5, next year’s draft could be even worse. Any way you look at it (e.g., severe lack of talent on our current roster, severe lack of talent in our current front office, severe lack of talent in our coaching ranks, severe lack of luck in the lottery, severe lack of talent depth in this year’s draft, severe lack of talent depth in future drafts, conspiracy theories, etc.), things are not looking good for the Tpups.

by Boss10 on Apr 25, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Stash Jan Vesley with the fourth pick

and try to find a guard with the 20 trade up big if necessary.

by xraraavis on Apr 25, 2011 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

In another situation I actually might consider this

As I said elsewhere, he’s my favorite European player in the draft. But I don’t think they can afford to stash a player with their top pick. They have to get better.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

this is just a terrible no good awful draft

I would work hard to trade anything other than first pick. Williams might be good, but doesn’t help with this roster, and really, there is nothing else.

I like Biyombo, I guess, but he isn’t helping right away. He could eventually be Tyrus Thomas (or, as I noted yesterday, he could be Joel Anthony).

Walker I don’t like at all, and frankly still have no idea how the Hoopus score is so high. Burks is OK, but if he winds up being Ronnie Brewer I think that’s a good result for him (not a negative comment in my opinion, but not worth a top 5 pick, either).

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 9:21 AM CDT reply actions  

The Centers

I actually think the Center trio of Kanter/Jonas V./Biyombo is very intriguing. They are all young and each offers something different. As those guys start doing individual workouts, I could easily see certain teams falling in love with one of them because they may be a great fit for their roster.

One example: The Sixers. I doubt that they believe Hawes or Speights is the answer at Center for the future. I wonder if they were to fall in love with a guy like Biyombo if they would be willing to put Iguodala in play, especially with Evan Turner now slowly but surely getting better.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 25, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo has about 30+ pounds on Thomas

So I’m not sure there’s any comp there. Thomas had the body of a 3 coming into the league but was forced to play the 4. BB at least has some muscle on him and will be able to bang with the big boys in the NBA.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 25, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Question for you

and you’re kind (the statistically oriented ones who want to win and insist that you can’t do that through the draft every year, which I mostly agree with).

Do you take Williams over Beasley? I don’t think Beasley is better than Williams because I think he is almost completely average and only helps a team score with little else. I’d trade Beasley (maybe for Varejao) and roll with Williams instead. I’m kind of sick of our ‘star’ not being able to lead us to 20 wins even with Love beside him. Though maybe Love holds just as much accountability…

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Austin Rivers Hype Train Too?

Just curious what you see if Rivers that makes you think he’d be the #1 pick in this draft? I think he’s going to be a very good college player but right now I think his NBA ceiling is Steph Curry and I don’t think he’ll even reach that. He’s a 6’3 SG, how often do those guys turn into franchise players? If he weren’t going to Duke and instead went somewhere like Florida State I think he would probably set a record for highest usage rate in College Basketball history. I see him as a volume shooter who is being vastly overrated because of who his father is. What am I missing?

by jama on Apr 25, 2011 9:21 AM CDT reply actions  

I've only seen him 4 times

But the smooth scoring game built on a change-of-pace off-the-dribble attack is something that I think is undervalued. He was the dominant scorer in the last 2 U18 FIBA games. With the turnover at Duke, he could be handed the keys to the car in his first year.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

What position does he play?

Do you see him as a combo-guard, SG, PG? Just curious, because I think he’s a tweener at the next level unless he somehow hits another growth spurt. Obvioulsy part of this depends on where he ends up and what type of players are around him but I see a Steph Curry or Jason Terry type player at the NBA level. Obviously that’s not a bad thing, but not what I’d want from a #1 overall pick

by jama on Apr 25, 2011 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lead guard

The guy with the rock in his hands at all times. I put him at the top mainly because this year’s draft is so poor.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I guess we disagree

Here’s the problem for Rivers though, he’s not going to play that position at Duke. Duke signed Quinn Cook as their PG and I think they’ll play Rivers much more off the ball. That doesn’t mean that Rivers can’t play lead guard in the NBA but he’s not going to get a lot of practice in that role at a high level. I think his game screams off guard to me. Maybe he’ll be a shorter version of Rip Hamilton in his prime though.

I’m somewhat surprised you like him better than Irving too.

by jama on Apr 25, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah..

….I really have no good reason other than a few games seeing him play to put him above Irving. That one is 100% a gut feeling.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Unlike Steph, he should be able to guard the 2 most nights

His measurements from the hoops summit were 195 lbs and 6’4 in shoes with a 6’8 wingspan. That’s quite a bit bigger than Steph with his merely mortal wingspan.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 25, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

But will he???

I hadn’t seen those measurements. The last measurement I had seen had him at 6’3. His wingspan will help with defense, too bad I don’t think he’s athletic enough to guard most 2’s in the league. He also seems like more of a offensive player than someone I picture locking someone down on the defensive end. That’s strictly my opinion thought and I very likely am wrong about that.

by jama on Apr 25, 2011 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Point is

He’s not going to be FORCED to guard PG’s like Allen Iverson. He’s still undersized as a 2 but he’s about the same size as Wayne and is longer, at least, than OJ Mayo (and only slightly shorter). Plus he’s young enough that he might still grow.

No idea on if he’s athletic enough to handle it, but the possibility is there because of his tools, at least.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 25, 2011 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Marcus Morris

Obviously he’s not a need for the Wolves and I am not saying they should draft him but I think he’s going to have a solid career in the NBA. He seems like a Drew Gooden clone to me. He’s one of those guys that will never make an All-Star team but will play in the NBA for a dozen years and be a great second unit player off the bench. I think he’s going to end up going in the top 12 once he starts auditioning for teams.

by jama on Apr 25, 2011 9:24 AM CDT reply actions  

Darius Morris

with pick 20

right last name though

I think DM is the sleeper in this draft

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Norris Cole...

Seems like an Eric Maynor type. We already have Ridnour as our backup pg of the future, but I wouldn’t be opposed to taking a flier on Cole with the 20th pick if we miss out on Irving.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 9:32 AM CDT reply actions  

"Fliers"

Top 20th pick fliers -

1. Josh Selby – everyone says he has potential
2. Reggie Jackson – they guy plays smart ball, something not seen from a Wolves PG in a long time.
3. Darius Morris – not sure why, he just looks the part
4. Klay Thompson – insert joke about Beasley, Thompson & a bunch of weed. Seriously though, one curious thing about Minnesotans is that we love the home town connection.

by O-Train on Apr 25, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Seriously though, one curious thing about Minnesotans is that we love the home town connection.

This gets mentioned a lot. Outside of Glen Taylor, how true is it though? I feel like this is one of those windmills Dan Barreiro rails against on KFAN just so he has an excuse to bitch for 5 mins.

I personally don’t watch high school or college sports so I have no bias towards ex-MN athletes. I just want good players/coaches regardless of where they are from.

I do get the impression that Taylor thinks this way, and as a result I’m a bit worried about a Sam Mitchell hire. Lots of negative opinions about his style and coaching ability came out after he was let go in TOR.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 25, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry typo - tilts with not rails against

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 25, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Different Types

I agree that hardcore fans of the Wolves, Vikings, Twins, etc. do not care if the player is from Mars – we just want to see exceptional players. Having said that, I do think that marginal and fair weather fans of MN teams are attracted to the home town stories.

by O-Train on Apr 25, 2011 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it depends on the player

Joe Mauer is awesome at baseball, and being from minnesota just seems to add slightly to how much everyone would like him anyway

Glen Perkins, was being kind of a douche a few years ago, and isn’t really that good, so he ended up on basically every offseason plan I saw as a person to trade away.

Though, to O-Train’s point, it was probably just the hardcore fans who wanted to get rid of Perkins, since they knew both that he was being a douche, and that he wasn’t very good.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Apr 25, 2011 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

And some hardest core fans...

Thought Perkins had lots of talent and didn’t want the Twins to get rid of him simply because he was a douche.

You can't dust for vomit.

by twinstalker on Apr 26, 2011 4:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like Morris of those

but I only watched him and Selby play. Selby would have to have monstrous workouts in order for me to consider him, he just didn’t look interested at Kansas.

by zebano on Apr 25, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wish you had a way to fit non-college guys in there

Biymbo, Kanter, and the Euro-bigs i nparticular… oh well. Great work though I disagree with the Kemba love, he really scares me that high as I don’t think he’ll get his shot off as easily in the NBA though I massively prefer him to Jimmer.

Anyway my tiers:
Tier 1: Irving
Tier 2 : Williams
Tier 3: Biymbo, Kanter
Tier 4: Burks, ?

Around pick 20 (if we still have it) : Reggie Jackson or Darius Morris, Jimmer
Tier ??: Euro Bigs

Tier NO thanks: Morris Twins.

I believe Kahn’s biggest job (assuming he keeps it) is to assess which of our young assets we will keep. We simply don’t have playing time for everyone. Something like:

Attempt to trade Beast, Flynn, Darko/Pek, Wes, Webster targeting high picks and a SG or C

SGs: Rudy Gay, Demar DeRozan, Stuckey, Salmons, Thorton (?), Crawford
Center: a Lopez, Goratat, Varejo, Chandler, Marc Gasol

If we get the top pick, deal Rubio, for one of the above or a pick that can land Bismack/Burks + a 2012 pick.

That gives us a rotation

Rubio/Luke
?/Ellington
Two of BeasleyWes/Webster but not all 3 and possibly only 1.
Love/ A.R.
Tolliver/ ?

Above all, remember that we’re a bad team and if someone wants one of your good players (Love, Luke, Tolliver, A.R.) they’re for sale for the right price. There is nobody on this team that we must keep.

by zebano on Apr 25, 2011 9:39 AM CDT reply actions  

I just don't think we'd ever get a dollar for dollar return on Love

and he might still be improving.

I mentioned this in an earlier post up above – as teams get a closer look at the Euro-Centers (and Biyombo), I wouldn’t be surprised if on some boards they rise to #2 because of specific fit/need issues.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 25, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some good ideas here

I think we are gonna have to think outside the box on this draft, and you are approaching it that way.

I think the overall strategy is important in this draft. And an important piece of that strategy is to avoid getting our salary base too high, and avoid creating commitments to players that don’t have the potential to be worth their salary commitment. With that in mind, I’m thinking in terms of guidelines from a big picture perspective, something like this:

1. To avoid salary problems, we have to trade Beasley. We can probably get some kind of asset for him, like a pick in this draft or a player with some defensive potential, or maybe he gets packaged for a player like Varejao — an idea proposed by someone else that I like. But the main thing is we gotta get rid of Beas because his salary will be too high for his value. He’s had opportunity to really bloom, he’s a fun guy to have on the team, but he just does not have the mental attitude to be a significant player for us. So to sign him again is flat wrong. The sooner we trade him, the better, and we can certainly get more for him than we paid. I would make this a primary goal right now, and it overrides the importance of who we pick, because there is know way we can know right now what pick we get. So for me, trading Beas is a given, and trading Flynn is an imperative for the same reason.

2. To avoid future salary problems, and also logjam problems, we don’t want two guys added to the team from this draft — unless we do more pruning of the roster in addition to Beas. My take is that if we have a pick in the later rounds, we gotta think hard on doing another Euro stash. It keeps the salary level down two ways — no salary drag for 2011/12 and maybe not for 2012/13, and we get a quality guy like Valenciunas (maybe) for a 20 pick salary.

3. Obviously, with the above two ‘rules’, I think it is a waste of time to discuss who we pick at 20 unless we discuss who we pick as a Euro stash. It is much more interesting to figure out what we can get for Beasely/Flynn and perhaps Rubio.

Based on that, here is what I’d do — but of course I’ll change my mind as things change.

- If we get #1 pick, we take Irving, and Rubio goes on the trading block. Maybe we trade Rubio for a BiBo pick, but we need to know more about him than we do right now. Otherwise, try to package Rubio, Beas, Flynn & other stuff for a quality 2 guard or defensive big.

- If we get #2 pick, draft Williams. Trade Beas for what we can get. While we want to optimize the value, it is more important to get his future salary off the roster than to hold out for “value”. Trading him for a future pick would be fine with me. Rubio would be our PG, or we take other action like a trade. I am totally open to trade Rubio assuming we get great value for him. I’d try using Williams at the 3, and if he works out, then Wes or Martell become expendable at a later date.

- If we get #3, I’d go for BiBo if his draft workout lives up to the hype. He’d be a good front court mate with Love. We trade Beas and filler for what we can get, aiming to fill the 2 spot.

- If we end up with pick 20, then I’d do a Euro stash, we don’t need to be training any more rookies while paying them a couple million/year. But for me, in this draft, trading the 20 pick for 2nd rounders makes sense, no salary commitment.

In this way, we preserve some salary cap flexibility, and change the team in a positive way (IMHO).

As fans, we get emotionally attached to players. I really looked forward to Beas being on his way to an All-Star player, but my gut right now says he will never make it due to his mentality. Wes has more promise, but he’s expendable too because he’s not got the aggressiveness we need. A great guy, quality individual, but we need more players with the incredible focus that a player like Kobe has had in his career (and yep, he’s a jerk in many ways).

I’m big on attitude. Williams has a great motor and aggressive attitude, we need a player like that. Same for BiBo, according to reports so far. If we could somehow trade into a situation where we get both Williams & Bibo, or Irving & BiBo, I’m cool with that too. We’d have an injection of attitude that this team needs.

by timmuggs on Apr 25, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of our salary base and so on,

The Wolves have yet to face a tough salary negotiation on their own players under Kahn. He’s inked a few free agents of note – Ridnour, Sessions, Anthony Tolliver, Hollins – to basically market-rate contracts, and in all those cases I’d say he’s shown an MO of waiting out the market first, but he hasn’t re-upped anyone.

Beasley is going to be a highly interesting case, if Kahn’s still the one haggling with his agent at that point, but even Love… We do not actually know how much money pressure Glen Taylor has applied to his POBO at this point, do we?

Kahn’s talking about how much he likes the roster in that “done rebuilding” quote might tell us one thing, but I’m not at all sure we’re destined for an inevitable capped-out-on-the-likes-of-Beasley outcome, here.

by feral on Apr 25, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm thinking...

…we’d be lucky to keep Beas for around 6mil (close to real value), but he will likely get closer to 8 – and that’s too expensive for what he brings.

by Boss10 on Apr 25, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

What will Kahn's modus operandi be on extensions?

That’s my question. Does he have stingy marching orders from Glen? Does he try to wait out the market, as he did when signing other teams’ players?

It’s a whole new area in which David Kahn can excel!

by feral on Apr 25, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well considering our "core" is in place...

…I’m guessing he has to sign at close to market price. Unless not signing is part of the “significant tweaking”. Aw hell, this sucks. Dude is just making it up as he goes along! The 14th window?

by Boss10 on Apr 25, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, the "making it up as he goes" part is getting so old.

Meanwhile, our coach seems to have too little of that gene.

by feral on Apr 25, 2011 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're forgetting Darko!

Kahn somehow negotiated with himself and ended up giving Darko probably about double what he deserved. Using that negotiation alone I’m not looking forward to Kahn trying to bring back Beasley or Love for that matter. I see him severly overpaying for players he has brought in and are labeled ‘his guys’.

by jama on Apr 25, 2011 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey z...

Please add Singler to the OhGawdNo Tier.

by Boss10 on Apr 25, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

If I had an edit button I would

timmuggs – awesome post. Off the top of my head I really want a free agent/trade for a veteran such as those listed because it minimizes Clippergeddon which is not an end in and of itself, but man will I be embarrased if we provide LA with a top 5 pick. If we followed your path and dealt Beasley to end up with Irving or Williams + Biyombo (I think that would be a coup on Kahn’s part) I’d be ok too since we clearly have a complimentary pieces that appear to have potential.

A second point that I really agree with is attitude. KG has it, Kobe has it, MJ had it, D12 has it, Pau doesn’t have it and didn’t win until he was with Kobe etc. I hate to say it but I don’t think Lebron has it though Wade does. This makes both Williams and Biymbo potentially attractive pickups.

Rather than making #20 a hard and fast euro-stash I think a better idea is to figure out which of Darko/Pek/Webster/Wes/Beasley/Flynn are move-able and maybe move some of them simply as salary dumps. What scares me is that Kahn probably wants his coaches input on which of these he should keep and it looks like Taylor will wait as long as possible before deciding if Kurt is back. ugg… bad business decisions in action. Remember Glen, don’t throw good money after bad. Rambis is a sunk cost but he appears to me to actively make the team worse; Pull the trigger now!

by zebano on Apr 25, 2011 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good points :>)

The impact of Kobe’s attitude on Pau is a good example, and the intensity that KG brought to Boston is another.

Good idea to see who is movable among the options you list & see where we can go with that.

I assume that Ronzone will still be aboard, and he will be the go-to guy on talent evaluation. I like his evaluation of Euro stashes, but we could possibly pick up something else by packaging guys & the pick. There are some interesting options. If Telfair goes, we could use a Nolan or Reggie Jackson as later round PGs. Looks like this draft has some good ones that will fall. That is only if we don’t get to pick Irving.

I reckon we have two shots at Irving: If we get #1. Or if we get #2 and the Wizards get #1.

Sure would be cool to get Irving and have him be a Chris Paul doppelganger.

by timmuggs on Apr 25, 2011 5:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

The 5 Foreign Bigs

Your college player list obviously excludes the 5 foreign big men. If we end up with the third or fourth pick we will probably take Kemba Walker or one of the foreign big men. Enes Kanter would be available to play this year. Bismack Biyombo is currently in breach of his contract and is staying in America trying to force his Euro team to agree on a buyout. With the lock out Jan Vesley, Donatas Motiejunas, and Jonas Valanciunas will probably stay in Europe one more year although I believe all three of them can buy themselves out of their current contracts if they wish.

So if we end up with the third or fourth pick our choices are
Kemba Walker (Jonny Flynn 2.0)
Enes Kanter (best-case scenario he is Al Jefferson 2.0)
Bismack Biyombo (nobody knows what he is)
Euro Bigs (Talented but flawed players playing in Europe, Ricky Rubio situation 2.0)

This Draft sucks.

by xraraavis on Apr 25, 2011 9:40 AM CDT reply actions  

I actually think Vesely might be the best European player in this draft

Though he probably is not worth a top 4 pick. I didn’t realize Biyombo hadn’t returned to Fuenlabrada. I’m not so sure that’s a wise move.

Kanter is interesting, but it is a real negative for his development that he was unable to play competitive basketball this season. Plus I doubt Kahn is interested, and I’m not entirely sure he works with Love.

This draft does suck.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kanter is not a great match with Love

He and Love are very similar. Kanter is maybe an inch taller than Love with slightly longer arms. Love is probably a better athlete. Both of them have a high basketball IQ, good hands and use their bulk to score and rebound inside. I don’t think Kanter has an outside shot.

by xraraavis on Apr 25, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pairing players...

David Kahn has said that advanced statistics matter less to bad teams.

Ironically (or perhaps fittingly), David Kahn covets the one thing that probably does matter the least to bad teams…Height. He also does this at the expense of what probably matters the most (productivity). Plain and simple, the Wolves need to draft the best and most productive player in this draft, and worry about his fit later. If that means drafting Williams, Kanter, Walker, or whoever then so be it. But the last thing we need to do is pass up on a productive player because his height or length may not be the ideal fit alongside Kevin Love.

This isn’t me saying “draft Enes Kanter.” I’m only saying that if Kanter is the best player on the board, then we draft him and worry about fit later.

Patiently waiting for a new POBO

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Another thing...

The idiots of the NBA world like David Kahn who look contemptuously upon using advanced stats in the decision making process STILL USE STATS WHEN MAKING DECISIONS. Everyone in the NBA uses stats when making decisions, the only difference is people like David Kahn end up relying on more shallow statistics such as:

Height: Darko is 84 Inches!!!

Length: Calculated by dividing height by weight. Corey Brewer dominates here.

Athleticism: Wes has a 37 inch vertical!!

We’ve spent the last two years, and however many more before that, following a team that covets these three dubious statistics. Look where it has gotten us. Other stats are GMs covet include:

1. Points per game: Beasley, Mike James and Ricky Davis!
2. Points in the NCAA Tourney: Randy Foye and Jonny Flynn!!!
3. Participation in 6OT Games: Jonny Flynn!!!!!
4. Boner-inducing smiles: Wes and Jonny again!!

Isn’t it about time that we get a GM/POBO who strives for something better?

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Posts on this site never fail to make me smile

though they are not of the BiS variety. CH is always good for a laugh.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Apr 25, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

LITTLEBOXES FOR THE WIN!

PoorDick: "Occam's Pocketbook: When a decision regarding the Wolves is unknown, assume the cheapest option is the most likely option."

by Blakeley on Apr 25, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great insight, but I have to point out one thing

If you use BiS, the stat can be inflated by the size of the audience. If FLynnplayed in LA or Boston, his BiS would be bigger just because the audience is bigger.

Solution: Adjust for audience size & attendance numbers and number of broadcast games.

by timmuggs on Apr 25, 2011 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

True, but once you adjust for the length

of the six OT game (in Madison Square Garden no less), Curry is again the sensible pick.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wait a minute.

Inflating the boners and adjusting for length? Seems like there’s a juvenile joke there somewhere, but I’m far too mature to see it.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 26, 2011 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

TA will cringe

but there’s an even more advanced stat that is Inches per boner per smile. IBS for short.

Wait…

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

so funny

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 25, 2011 5:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Totally agree

It’s funny how Marc Gasol and Zach Randolph have someone made it work in Memphis. Wasn’t it Britt who used to describe Gasol as a water buffalo for how awful he defended? And Zach hardly has a defensive pedigree (unless he’s in court….).

So yeah, I’m not sure if Enes Kanter is the right guy either. But Ryan Hollins and Darko have proven that production matters far more than physical profile.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 25, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol seriously!

Everybody is valuable, it just depends on how much $ you are paying them. Al Jefferson at 18mil/year is a little steep, but, yeah, at 4mil, sign him up.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 25, 2011 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo Contract

My understanding is that Biyombo’s team failed to pay him in a reasonable amount of time.
So, essentially they initiated the breach of contract.
Pretty sure he wins that one in court.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Apr 25, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

If your understanding is factual, yes, he would probably “win that one”.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 25, 2011 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I still don’t see Derrick Williams as a 4. He doesn’t revound welle nough to play the 4. He likely isn’t going to measure well. He is going to struggle defending NBA 3’s or 4’s. His wing score puts him at 11 and I personally would rather select Kawhi Leonard knowing he can probably at least defenda position than gambling on a tweener like Williams. Williams as the consenus #2 pick scares me more than anything in this draft. Walking away with Williams would be the disaster draft scenario that doesn’t improve the team IMO.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 9:54 AM CDT reply actions  

Williams will be a good player

He is a tremendous athlete, can handle the ball well, and is an excellent 3pt shooter. He should be at least an average defender at the 3.

He wouldn’t be a second pick in most drafts but he is good and he is one of the most NBA ready players in the Draft.

by xraraavis on Apr 25, 2011 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree somewhat

although it’s hard to teach outside shooting and the knack for drawing contact. Those seem like things that can translate. I do worry about his ideal position and defense though.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 25, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Joshua Smith...

…that’s a big boy right there.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 10:21 AM CDT reply actions  

His namesake's not too shabby in the NBA.

Correlation?

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!

by Omaha Sun on Apr 25, 2011 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe in Derrick Williams

he sold me.

Ask yourself the last time you saw a player get significantly better from freshmen to sophmore season in college? The guy is a work horse and their are reports that he has a chip on his shoulders and is a humble human being (the Aaron Rodgers of BBall?) I think he is the right player to bring into a struggling franchise. Obviously you take the hyper talent Irving with the no. 1 pick, but I have no qualms with 2 and Williams

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:26 AM CDT reply actions  

Here's a list of recent players

Blake Griffin
James Harden
Jonny Flynn
LeMarcus Aldridge
Rudy Gay

It’s not as rare as you think

by jama on Apr 25, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Johnny Flynn though was not one of the 2 best players in basketball

So take him out, and that’s a pretty good list full of RARE talent that the wolves would love to have

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, you kind of made his point for him there

I’d love to have any of those players that we don’t all ready have. Plus Williams’ numbers are way better than flynn’s.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Apr 25, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are we sure that becoming better between frosh and sophomore year...

…is a positive in terms of predicting pro success? Seriously, how do we know that’s really a good thing? Aren’t all the really, really good freshman making the jump early and doesn’t this dilute the pool of players we can make this comp with/for?

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Work ethic though brother

Flip Saunders, Kevin Prticherd, Chad Ford, Marc Stien

I’ve heard them all interviewed and they say the most underrated ability out of prospects is their work ethic and attitude, and that is always the difference between those who can be All-Stars (maybe DWill) and those that have the same talent and don’t make it (Beasley).

His rise reminds me a lot of Russel Westrbook (not saying he will be as good) where he was just this guy his freshmen year but had this really great sophmore season and showed tremendous work ethic, is he perfect? No but he has gotten better every single season, and has been a leader on his team to help everyone become better

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm betting that

his absence will make me grow fonder for him.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 25, 2011 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes..

…but there are a lot of players who work really hard and don’t improve.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Wolves organization is finding out

that every team works hard in the off-season.

“We won’t be out-worked” is not necessarily true, and even if it is, it isn’t going to help much. When Zach Randolph has his head on straight, dedicated to winning, it’s safe to say the NBA is full of motivated professionals, by and large.

by Andy G on Apr 25, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

I think it’s table stakes these days. Corey Brewer, Randy Foye….They were considered top notch character-guys with a great work ethic….Haven’t improved a lick.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 25, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

I was sold on the notion that Brewer had the motor and that he would learn to shoot. I underestimated his difficulty handling the ball and overestimated his ability to improve his jump shot.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 25, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah but they aren't as talented as DWill either though

I don’t really know why you are fighting this? I’m not suggesting taking him over Irving (although I wouldn’t be as dissapointed if they did)

They guy has the perfect combination of talent and work ethic and that is actually probably the best indicator of future stardom that we have.

Name me the best player in the NBA that has talent but no work ethic? ZBow? And I think he has even began to really work at his game. It might be Michael Beasley.

LBJ, WADE, Mamba, D12, KLOVE, Westbrook/Durant, Rose, DWill 1=these guys all show up better than the year before because they have talent and work ethic.

I’m not saying Williams will be in this category, but it seems like he has the right mix of attitude/work ethic and talent

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Almost everybody works hard

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

It seems clear to me that there are different types of "hard work"

I’m sure Beasley works hard in the offseason, but what does that mean exactly? I picture him lifting a lot of weights and putting up a lot of shots, but not in such a way that he’ll actually come away with an added dimension to his game. Contrast this to guys like Durant, Westbrook, Nowitzki, Kobe, etc. who are constantly adding things to their skill set that they will end up using in games. It’s not just “work” that’s important, it’s the ability to improve – which does require work, but isn’t exactly the same thing. All of those guys seem to have a very intelligent way of approaching the off-season, and a plan to get better. It’s not just “work on basketball five hours a day.”

I’m not exactly sure how you can predict this, but it seems like those who invested in the guys I listed above were pretty convinced from the start that they would have this in them. It seems to be one of the things that separates decent GMs from great ones.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 25, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just don't know if...

..an increase in production between freshman and sophomore years is indicative of future success.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

It would seem to be indicative of a solid work ethic, but whether it’s the type that will allow them to improve in the NBA or not… who knows. I would absolutely NOT argue that it’s one of the main things to look at when evaluating prospects. But it can hardly be a bad thing.

Presti has picked up two guys that were undervalued and seem to do really productive work to improve (Westbrook and Ibaka). Did he get lucky, or is he really good at evaluating that? You could toss Maynor in as well. It seems like this is one of those things that just can’t be captured all that well with statistics (I’m including year-to-year leaps in college production in that).

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 25, 2011 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

It is an indicator of attitude

It is not foolproof, but if as many say, attitude & work ethic are paramount, then you have another way to determine if the player has the attitude & work ethic that it takes to be a great pro, before you sign him to a gigamillion contract. It’s more about observing the player than trying to measure an intangible.

by timmuggs on Apr 25, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you mean

smoke pot and watch cartoon network for 5 hours a day.

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 25, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

BTW

I’m not fighting anything other than the assumption that an increase in output between freshman and sophomore seasons has to mean that the guy has solid pro prospects. I think that being good enough to make the leap after the freshman year removes the cream of the crop, thus making something like this questionable.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

It doesn't seem to me that wolvesguy is arguing that

He’s saying that Williams has fringe all-star talent, and is taking his leap between frosh and soph (as well as nearly all reports about the guy) to indicate that he’s got the work ethic and desire to make good on all of that talent. The formula’s talent + work = success. I’m sure there are plenty of guys that might make a leap in college because they have the desire, but simply don’t have enough talent to succeed. This seems to be what you’re trying to avoid pulling out of a statistical leap between years. I don’t disagree. And btw, I’m not as totally sold on Williams as wolvesguy, but I don’t think his take on him is totally unreasonable.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 25, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

It just seems like

for a guy that has DWILL rated as his number 2 prospect, you seem to want to battle me on my opinion that if we get the 2nd pick Williams is a sketchy pick

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's not fair, my bad

I just find you to be really dismissive of DWilliams talent, and people in general and I think it is because of the draft, so we assume because he is in this draft and not named Irving that he sucks. And I strongly think if you took the last 4 drafts dating back to 2007, the only draft Williams isn’t a top 5 pick in is 2008, and even then he might be.

I think if we get screwed with pick 2, I think he’s an excellent player to get and we need players like him, even if it isn’t exactly a good fit

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think..

…getting the 2nd pick would be getting screwed. They certainly have a better chance at landing picks 2 and 3 and 4 than they do the top pick. I’m not dismissive of Williams’ talent so much as I am of a) the team having for however short a period of time their best 5 players at a single position and b) their ability to capitalize on the value of Williams if they took him and then tried to move Randolph or Beasley. To me, they’re just spinning their wheels at that point. They would have been better off simply keeping Jefferson and trying to figure out how to make it work with him and Love than they would be swapping out various iterations of an athletic 4/5 or 3/4 type of player. The only saving grace would be if they could figure out how to turn that pick into a guy like Kevin Martin or Monta Ellis, and I’m not too sure they could make that happen.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 25, 2011 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Aiming much lower...

What are your thoughts about JR Smith/ OJ Mayo as a potential SG targets depending on price?

I’m guessing we don’t get a stud SG like Monta or Martin, but I have to hope we can do better than Raja.

by Airete on Apr 25, 2011 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Totally outside of the scope of this discussion, but . . .

Mayo had a pretty great reverse dunk against the Spurs tonight. Like he exploded up through the trees to hammer it home.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was pretty actively involved in his +15, last night.

Another nice sequence was when he hit the corner trey and soon after hit Arthur for that big alley-oop. Memphis had everything going, last night. Their bench was awesome.

by Andy G on Apr 26, 2011 7:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Both of them are better...

…..than the guards on the Wolves’ roster, but Mayo hasn’t been very good and Smith is talking about how he’s leaving Denver while his team is still in the playoffs. I think they’d both be better off if Mayo was in Denver and Smith in Memphis. I think the Wolves will be left choosing someone like CDR.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 7:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Right

They’ve been doing it for a while.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Since KG left, at the very least.

Heck, date it back to the two years before that too. This franchise’s wheels are under six feet of mud.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's a good thing..

…that the guy ultimately in charge of the basketball operations has experience in film production and hockey.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is Werner Herzog running this team? Can he haul it over the mountain?

(And how much do I want to see the 3D movie he just made about Chauvet? SO MUCH.)

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fitzcarraldo is awesome

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

You aren't doing as bad of a job as Ebomb is of this but...

Don’t you think this take is kind of “wanting to have it both ways”

Last year at this time we had Al Jeferson and Kevin Love on the roster, Kahn drafts Wes Johnson and everyone is irate because we already have two players with exactly the same MO: Good offensively, not gonna give you a lot defensive post players.

Flip the script a year, the debate might be between Williams and Burks or Byiambo and the best player is Williams (I have byimabo intrigue but if you feel the Wolves need to come away with an all-star I will take my chances with Williams) but we have 7 players that fit this need.

Don’t we just take the best player?

Trades can happen, even before the draft I think. We can ship Beasley before Williams ever lowers his value even further. Where is Burks gonna go? 5, 6? You don’t think Washington would do a Beasley/Web/Flynn for 5 swap so we can get Burks too?

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

I resent the title of your post

I also dispute your conclusions as to why everyone was “irate” last year. My impression was that it was because Cousins was the clearly the best player available and we passed to take a player that fit better. I’ve maintained that I don’t think Williams can play the 4. The draft ratings here show that Derrick Williams as a wing prospect is clearly not the 2nd best draft prospect. The Timberwolves absolutely do not need another PF. I don’t think my argument is unwarranted or unsupported.

by Ebomb on Apr 26, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

You're right about this. Wolvesguy's twisting some pretty obvious details to suit his argument.

First of all, “everyone was irate” about Kevin Love not playing alongside Jefferson when they were both around the previous year. The whole “Why does Kevin Love not get more minutes?” fuss was an argument for the Wolves playing two comparable players at the same time.

Then the draft irateness was basically a split over people not wanting Wes Johnson chosen simply because he didn’t represent value at that spot in that draft class. If you weren’t going to take Cousins there – for attitude reasons, or fit reasons, whatever – then you needed to maybe deal out of the pick.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Even if Derrick Williams is a 4 we still need to take BPA

that is my point.

You made my point for me, everyone was irrate about Wes because Kahn drafted a need (athletic shooter) vs best player available (essentially another power forward)

and now you are going to blast Kahn for taking BPA vs need (Say Burks: an excellent penitrator that can get to the lane)

You want to have it both ways.

While I have kept a consistent tone of just wanting to take the best player available. I have said since DMC, that I would never ever want that man on my team, but I do believe if you had drafted DMC you would have been able to trade for something better than Wes Johnson (to Detroit for Austin Daye and Rodney Stucky?)

and I stay the course here, you can debate whether Williams is the BPA or not, but if he is…evenif he is a 4 you have to take him, because we need talent too badly.

We don’t even know if Love will sign, why are we banking on that? Take the BPA and worry about fit later.

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I DISAGREE THAT WILLIAMS IS THE BPA

I don’t know how many times I can say this before you understand my opinion on this.

by Ebomb on Apr 26, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

No one

I think Tier 2 is about 20 players long, it’s a Weak Draft, which is why we pick for need unless we get pick 1 which I absolutely agree with the sentiment that Irving is BPA at #1 and we select him, Rubio be damned.

by Ebomb on Apr 26, 2011 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Negative

We should pick for need instead of BPA.

Burks or Biyombo instead of Willimas

by Ebomb on Apr 26, 2011 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Never mind...

…that when something happens on Tuesday and is changed on Wednesday, you don’t have to pretend that you’re still looking at on Thursday is the same thing you saw on Tuesday.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

it seems like you are on an Island with that take sir

because universally he’s in the top 3 on any sort of site I can possibly find on the subject

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

So if he is unverisally in the Top 3

How does that mean he is BPA at 2. If he is #3 on any sort of site you can possibly find, then he isn’t BPA at 2 according to those sources.

Under any circumstance, I believe I am entitled to have an opinion of my own.

by Ebomb on Apr 26, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

NBA Draft.net

got him going 1

DX has him 2

I believe Ford has him at 2

I think I’ve seen one that has Kanter at 2 instead, and that is really it

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sounds like he is universally in the top 3

If he’s rated either 1, 2 or 3 in all polls, and not lower in any, and the majority have him in the 1 or 2 position, then he is universally in the top 3 with an average of top 2.

by timmuggs on Apr 26, 2011 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

We still have to draft him...we don't need him to be a T-Wolf

We should have drafted Cousins. Period. Should he have ever suited up as a Wolf? That’s another question. It’s okay to choose Wes Johnson. It’s not okay to choose Wes at 4 ahead of Cousins.

We likely draft Williams at 2 if we conclude he’s the BPA, but unlike Cousins we don’t have the option to keep him or trade him. We have to trade him.

This my friend sucks!

One other point on K Love. We have him next year and the following year minimum. The clock doesn’t start ticking on K Love until well after the draft. You don’t try to replace your all-star with your best remaining asset when you could use it to actually improve the team and your chances of keeping him.

by Airete on Apr 26, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is the best post on the debate outsdie of the ones I've written

Because Airete is right, and essentially how I feel about Williams, Cousins, and Wes, and my draft philosophy in general.

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I've just said you draft him without question

Do I think he and Love can play together? yes I do.

But you just draft him and figure out what the value you can get for him, Beasley or Love or however you want to figure out how to make it work.

This is really why we need a new GM, because Kahn is only going to be around for another year anyways, might as well just start over now

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

You differ with other posters over whether Derrick Williams is the clear BPA at #2.

You are unable to keep that clear in your mind, though, and so you’re laying out rhetorical charges of hypocrisy and fraudulence.

In so doing you’re misrepresenting criticism of past draft decisions, pretty badly from what I can tell.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wolvesguy said he is a clear #2 ...

… and universally regarded as one of the top 3.

by timmuggs on Apr 26, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

(Which happened after this post, actually.)

And which doesn’t change the fact that, disagreeing with that judgment with some others, Wolvesguy called them hypocrites and frauds. I don’t know, seems like a went-off-before-the-gun-was-loaded sort of thing to say right now, particularly given that we haven’t had the lottery.

Ah, the timelessness of Wolves fans bitching about what they might do with the #1 or #2 overall pick. Every year, the swallows come back. Only every year, the news on TV uses pictures of pigeons and starlings instead of swallows… ;-)

by feral on Apr 27, 2011 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

A rec

for your confident cockiness.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Both ways?

Ugh. Aside from the needless slap at Ebomb, here’s the problem with the Wolves:

They spend two drafts trying to be cute with players that fit some sort of system that only seems to exists in the heads of Kahn and Rambis while avoiding the clear BPA at numerous (yes, numerous) picks. When, predictably, this doesn’t work out, they are left with a roster that is even more mismatched than the one they inherited. They now have a roster where 4 (Love, Beasley, Randolph, Tolliver) guys all play the same position.

These guys have tried it both ways. They’ve tried it both ways and backwards. Instead of amassing the best young talent available to them and running a system that caters to their talents, they draft guys who might fit a system that will supposedly fit the roster 3 years from now. When this approach went down in flames, they’re now left with a young, mismatched roster with fewer draft and cap assets back at square one: needing more talent. Period. Of course they need to pick the BPA. They needed to do it in 09 and 10. They needed to do it with their 6 first round picks they’ve blown over the past 2 years. They’ve FUBAR’d so badly that they may be in a position where the BPA (Williams) would force them to move 1 (if not 2) of their existing good players. That’s insane.

This franchise has proven time and time and time again that it does not understand BPA or value and it bites them over and over and over again. This time, their long-running incompetence may force them to trade the 2nd pick or unload 1 or 2 players to make way for him. Again, insane.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kinda shows what the real flaw in the plan was all along though doesn't it?

Pick up Beasley as he’s cheap and a somewhat productive 4.

Pick up AT cause he’s cheap and a somewhat productive 4.

Pick up AR cause he’s cheap and a somewhat productive 4.

Trade Jefferson cause he’s not cheap.

Roster balance, rebuilding through the draft and using cap space for talent improvement have taken a backseat to bargain hunting.

On it’s own bargain hunting is not a bad thing. You can add talent through bargain hunting, but the draft was the only viable way to build a very good team. Bargain hunting could help add some talent, but at a very different return rate than the draft.

It’s like screwing up your 401K with bad decisions going into retirement, but being happy because you found a good deal on a car. Sure the deal on the car is nice, but if you screw the 401K up bad enough you’ll have to drive it to work for the next decade.

by Airete on Apr 26, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

That plan may have worked

Had Love not made the All-Star team and become tradeable without killing what’s left of the fan base.

by Ebomb on Apr 26, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

They only passed on clear BPA once and that was with Cousins

You can argue that you felt Curry was the clear BPA at #6, but draftniks had a range of players who they considered the top prospect at that point, including DeRozan, Jennings, Hill, and Mr. Flynn.

Not the case with Cousins, where the overwhelming majority of people had him as the clear best prospect at that point.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't give a shit about draftniks

I, personally, can argue the BPA take for Curry, Derozan, Lawson, Blair, Cousins, and James Anderson. I don’t care what other sites choose to do.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's fine and all

But then you shouldn’t use the term “clear BPA” without tagging along an “in my eyes”.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

BS

Maybe if I was arguing an appeal to authority or referring to someone else’s work, but I’m not. I’ve said it over and over and over and over and over and I don’t have to place a caveat on it just because you’ve read other draft sites.

Even if I’m wrong, they’ve put together the 4th worst 2 year stretch in NBA history by taking the everybody-but-Cousins-BPA route. If someone wants to argue that, fine, have at it.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Leaving alone that the entire NBA did a collective double-take when the Flynn pick happened.

Mock drafts would not be anything remotely like an accurate picture of the collective opinion of NBA franchises and fans, if they didn’t see that coming. You know? Whereas in reality, “draftniks” and everybody else including the TV crew was taken aback when the Wolves were done at #6. Even people who did think the Wolves were high on Flynn – we’d all read the pre-draft predictions – were waiting for the other shoe to drop in the form of a trade.

If we want to be talking about “trying to have it both ways,” we should be discussing David Kahn’s explanation of that pick. He said he didn’t think Curry could play PG, which at his height he’d be forced to play in the NBA… But then he chose Jonny Flynn, who as a “lead guard” had the same question marks about him only with less proven performance, instead… Bad judge of talent, meet contorted rationalization.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm sorry is this about Jonny Flynn or Stephen Curry?

Because it seems SNP is arguing Curry was the clear BPA. If the Wolves had drafted DeRozan (something most people were thinking after taking Rubio #5) there would have been no double-take.

I’m not a Kahn apologist, my post is solely about bashing the Wolves FO for

avoiding the clear BPA at numerous (yes, numerous) picks

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

I write this

Because that is exactly what I have been saying for two years. You seem to be mistaking me for whatever other sites you are thinking about.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh really? Wow. I was totally unaware of this beacuse it's not as if you don't mention it (while lambasting the Wolves FO) at any opportunity you can...

You’re a manhunt because the Wolves have struck out and now you’re saying they’ve passed on numerous clear BPAs (in your mind)… they haven’t, they’ve done it once.

Curry was not seen as the “clear BPA” at #6 by many, many, many people – not just drafniks, but NBA analysts as well.

So your CH score had him as a high rated player… who flipping cares? You yourself advocated getting Rubio and then pairing him with DeRozan, not Curry. Doesn’t seem like you thought he was “clear BPA” – Curry fan or not.

Thousands upon thousands of people have takes that hit and there are many bitter fans just like you for every single struggling franchise. Chill out and don’t embellish what has actually happened – it’s bad enough as it is and doesn’t need to be pumped up.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's the royal wedding

It’s made me dramatic ;)

In all seriousness, I thought the “treating the team as a joke” would work in terms of actually continuing to want to maintain the site. Not so much. The community aspect is still a draw for me but the whole arguing-about-the-same-things-we-did-3-years-ago angle and the overwhelming incompetence of the franchise is getting to be something that I just don’t want to think about…at all.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Understandable.

Take some time off. Besides the draft, It’s not like anything interesting is going to happen in the next six months at least, especially with the lockout.

If you still get the itch, start a Lynx blog. It will be guaranteed to be the best one on the planet.

By Thanksgiving, some or all of a group containing Jonny Flynn, David Kahn, and Kurt Rambis will be gone.

Another combination of some or all of Rubio, a top draft pick, and a Singular Move starter will be here. Then there might be something worth writing about every day.

In the meantime, the rest of us can put up wildly improbable trade ideas, mock drafts, and free agent signings.

Just leave the keys with Oceanary so he can put the least-dumb posts on the front page.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 26, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

so he can put the least-dumb posts on the front page.

Did you really have to single me out at the end there?

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good lord right back at you

Apparently you didn’t read my post where I brought up that you, yourself didn’t have Curry as the clear BPA since you were advocating getting DeRozan on the chance they get Rubio – yet you want to embellish how awful the Wolves FO is so you say they passed on the “clear BPA at numerous picks”.

This has nothing to do with your economy analogy, it has to do with you, the person who manages this site, blatantly embellishing their failures to better suit your purpose.

I hate this site too sometimes. Mainly because you and many others bitch and moan incessantly.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Feral is much nicer than me

or he enjoys arguing with overweening asses.
I’m really not sure which, since he’s argued with me before…

by rickyp on Apr 26, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good health tip, kids--

An overweened ass is not something you want.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 26, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

The beauty of the Article Archive...

2009 Canis Hoopus Draft thread link….

The reaction after we took Flynn…

Ebomb: WHAT????

Andy G: Why did we take Flynn?

SoDakHmr: R u Kidding?? Curry was sitting right there!

Tony_0: Johnny Flynn?? WHAT?

Django Z: Trade to Knicks for #8, no way we keep Flynn.

MAYNHOLUP: hate de flynn pick.

timmuggs: Unbeluckingfievable

Exactly zero people supported this pick. Which doesn’t really support your point Casper Kid

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 26, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

The beauty of a bad memory

is that I can remember exactly what I was doing while watching that pick.

I was sitting at a table, playing poker, watching the picks, wondering when a Flynn trade was going to happen. And then it didn’t… And I tried to convince myself. The numbers didn’t help me convince myself. I hoped I overlooked something or the workouts showed some incredible intangible (as we had never seen Kahn draft before, I had some hope). The workouts showed nothing (Kahn was a terrible drafter).

In summation, the Flynn pick was absolute garbage in every sense of the word (no offense, Jonny. I don’t blame you for not being LeBron. That’s like blaming me for not being a YMCA allstar. I blame Kahn for making you have to live up to a sixth pick).

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

And when I say 'bad memory'

I mean that the pick was a bad memory. Not that I have one…. or… wait… maybe I do. I can’t remember what my doctor told me when I saw him yesterday… or was that two days ago….

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 9:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

The aforementioned

fist pump made by Kahn during that draft provided the first confirmation that “This guy has no clue what he is doing.”

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 26, 2011 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

My draft night memory:

I was at a concert for some kids I work with, and took a few of them to Chipotle for dinner. (Partly that was about trying not to watch events unfold. How long have you been a Wolves fan?)

Anyhoo, we’re in line at Chipotle, and the two guys in front of me start talking about it. It goes back and forth like:

Incredulous delight: “They got Rubio without dealing up??”
Puzzlement: “And then the Flynn guy from the OTs.”
More puzzlement: “Not Curry?!?”

Guys in line at Chipotle saw the BPA, there.

by feral on Apr 27, 2011 7:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

BPA misses in the first round (second round is more difficult to say)

First year:
Arguably (don’t want to get into this): Curry
Ty Lawson
Blair

Second year:
Cousins
…..Webster, though many have argued otherwise, was probably not a better choice than most of the ‘BPAs’
Whiteside (if you want to argue that Curry wasn’t because people differed, then Hassan was for that same reason. “Most” people) or anyone really, over Lazar.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Curry? Arguably, yep – because there was no “clear BPA” about him among the majority of people who follow the draft.

Ty Lawson was a BPA miss? Nice revisionist.

Blair was a BPA miss? He fell out of the 1st round because teams were scared about his future in the league and didn’t want to commit a guaranteed contract to him.

Cousins? Yep.

Babbitt/Webster? Yeah, real clear BPA there.

Whiteside? Give me a break.

Apparently clear BPA means something completely different to me than it does to the majority of you. I think clear BPA mean it’s an obvious fucking pick that everyone in the world thinks should be made.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Blair is an Ailuridae fave,

mostly because his production was solid and the medical concerns about him weren’t about a current injury. The medical reports essentially said he had no knees, but he was actively able to play on them, with no current injuries, as of draft night.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is that the same thing

as “length”?

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 26, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, yeah,

but I’m just saying, it’s one of Ailuridae’s interesting variations on overlooking actual production. He fell to the 7th pick in the second round.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

And taken at 7th in the 2nd round,

Blair has already played how many more decent NBA minutes than Jeff Pendergraph, whom the Kings took first in that round? Does his long-term knee problem, if he has one, mean he was a worse pick than Victor Claver, who got a guaranteed deal?

(We don’t need to have the “McHale vindicated – though actually, uh, Brandon Roy had almost four NBA seasons of production better than anything Randy Foye will ever sniff” conversation again, but that’s what this is.)

by feral on Apr 27, 2011 7:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Why so few minutes in this playoff series?

Is he hurt or something? I’ve only watched Game 4, where he barely played even though Memphis was cruising against the Spurs’ starters.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lost his starting job due to weight problems,

and the Spurs have been struggling there since. I don’t think he’s injured per se right now, though.

by feral on Apr 27, 2011 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's already played more productive minutes than

Jonny or Wes is likely going to ever play in a Wolves uniform.

by Ailuridae on Apr 27, 2011 4:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Who was clearly ahead of Lawson?

And to be honest, yes, I would say that Blair was the BPA at the Lawson pick. So falling into the second round means he was a clear BPA (or…. maybe that was Wayne???) when our next pick came around.

Ignoring the Babbitt comment.

Whiteside? Absolutely. He was pegged as a late lottery pick for a while. “Most” people had him as a near guarantee to go in the first.

You introduced the concept of ‘most people’ earlier and I stuck with that. “Most people” didn’t have Curry as the clear BPA? Well, I disagree. But I also think “most people” had Whiteside going higher than our pick.

Maybe you are not factoring potential into the bpa definition? Because Whiteside has it. Just not extremely likely to reach it, which is why he was never (wait, wasn’t he a top 5 pick for a while?) a high lottery pick.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 10:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I concede victory (can I do that? Since we're on the same side?)

to the more persuasive and fact-filled post. But mine took less time!

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

And yes,

David Kahn really did say he’d taken Jonny Flynn because he thought he’d be a good defensive fit.

Ay yi yi.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

More evidence, perhaps,

That the more domineering and self-righteous a person is on a particular subject, the less likely that take is to be correct?

I’m definitely tired of reading aggressive assertions backed mostly by that person’s sense of things. If you have a “sense” of something, say it once, and then let it go. We don’t need a 16 post sub-thread on how your sense is definitely correct.

by WolvesFan03 on Apr 26, 2011 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Or, even worse,

a 16-post sub-thread to pin down that somebody else was wrong about some tertiary point they made.

by WolvesFan03 on Apr 26, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Stephen Curry was a media darling

Kahn was specifically asked about Stephen Curry. Vitale loves his college stars.

You can look on basically any Wolves board at the time, or any NBA fan site. Easily the consensus reaction on draft night was that they seemed like they’d have taken Curry at 6.

Just no. There was no consensus reaction. On KFAN they were split between Flynn, Curry, and DeRozan. On ESPN’s boards, same deal but throw in Jennings. On RealGM, Flynn/Curry, less DeRozan.

I’m not going to go dig up quotes on people questioning why another PG and why not DeRozan. Would take too much time and you guys would probably still not be able to wrap your head around the point that Curry was not the clear BPA.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

This hardly seems to be the point

and I’m not sure why any of you are arguing about it.

The point is that Curry turned out to be the best player available, and Kahn missed on him. Whatever anyone thought at the time isn’t particularly meaningful; the meaningful part is that the Wolves wound up with Flynn, not the clearly better Curry.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 26, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

As long as actual evidence is seemingly unimportant to this spat

I’ll add myself to the list of people whose recollection of things was that Curry was the clear BPA by the time the draft rolled around. He just was. That was the consensus. One more vote for Curry in this ongoing he-said-she-said tug of war.

One other thing, it’s an irrelevant argument to say some people would have had the Wolves take Derozan 6th. That argument factors in Wolves need. Derozan was the 2nd or 3rd best guy on the board, but the best one remaining in terms of fit. Of course some people might reasonably prefer that to a BPA that wouldn’t have fit with the guy picked ahead of him.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 27, 2011 5:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think I was posting on CH, just lurking

but I personally wanted Harden, was happy we scored Rubio and was baffled by the Flynn pick I thought there were numerous other better players including: DDR, Curry, Lawson (based on college production), Jennings, HIll and Williams.

by zebano on Apr 27, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was going to PM you, but...

… since I can’t find the option, whatever, I’ll say it out here.

You yourself said:

Whatever marginal difference between second-rate prospects like Flynn, Curry, and DeRozan is meaningless compared to the very real possibility of losing out on one of the most exciting prospects of the past 5 years [Rubio].

Of course you thought Curry was the clear BPA.

Again, you people appear to have no idea what “clear BPA” means – or you think “clear BPA” means something totally different than what I do. I don’t think it means “BPA” (something those replying seem to think it’s interchangeable with), I think it means somebody is quite clearly (as in, there are many people who think the same) a tier above the rest of the players (like Cousins in 2010) that a struggling team pretty much needs to take him.

I decided to quickly dig up some rankings – all off ESPN because they have this fancy search button so I don’t have to sift through google trash – since people are being asses.

Jennings above Curry.

Only rankings I could find of Vitale’s is a mock, but in other non-mock places, he pumps Curry as a star.

Curry at #13 behind a slew of players.

Hill above Curry.

Did I miss anything off ESPN? Feel free to add to it from other websites because I’m done with you guys and not taking another 10 minutes to search CBS or other places. Note I’m not a simpleton like feral who leaves out things which may hurt his argument.

There were people who thought Curry was the BPA at #6. I’m not denying that. I’m denying the notion that Curry was the “clear BPA” – Flynn, Hill, DeRozan, and Jennings were there (as was Holiday, whom I forgot to include). How do I know this? Umm… because I do consensus rankings of the major draft sites?

The fact that you guys think I’m making things up as I go, when I have followed the draft closely ever since the Wolves struggles – well, it’s a fucking joke. Obviously it’s time for me to leave this site when I get attacked by a bunch of group-thinkers for stating the overarching opinion of the tiers/rankings on draft night.

Have fun pumping Biyombo, a player most of you have only seen in the NHS and know virtually nothing about. Have fun embellishing the failures of Kahn, bashing Wes and dooming him to failure, and whatever else it seems you guys love to do on this site.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 27, 2011 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Thank you!

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 27, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

lol

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wasn't Williams an advance stats all-star as well?

I’m not even as big on AS as everyone is either, I’m somewhere in between David Kahn and Darryl Morey when it comes to advance stats, but I am under the impression that at least offensively Derrick Williams was in the 96 percentile of all players in college basketball. So his numbers aren’t even the product of being a gunner

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Saying you are somewhere in between Darryl Morey and David Kahn when it comes to advance stats

is like saying you are presently somewhere in between your birth and your death.

by TheH on Apr 25, 2011 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

That was my point :-p

I’m about 50/50 on it

I think there are AS terrorist that will say you have have have to use AS and if you don’t you’re an idiot. And I like to use them a little bit to tell me if what I am seeing is correct.

But I don’t need an AS to tell me Michael Beasley isn’t the most efficient scorer, but can be a fairly productive player.

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is a good point

At the least though, it would seem to indicate an excellent work ethic and desire to improve. Blake Griffin was fantastic as a freshman, and still took a leap forward his Sophomore year.

I can’t imagine that it’s a really bad thing, unless you’re suggesting it’s a strong indication of mediocre talent. Seems like you’d just have to use your judgement on that aspect if you’re making the pick.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 25, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ask yourself the last time you saw a player get significantly better from freshmen to sophmore season in college?

Every single season of college basketball on nearly every single team this happens. I would hope the potential #2 overall pick got significantly better when he was 18-19 years old. This is a requirement, not a unique selling point.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 10:33 AM CDT reply actions  

Sure it does

someone has to be the best player in college basketball. Williams might be good; I have nothing against him except that people who know these things seem to think he’s mostly a 4 in the NBA

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't you think offensively he'd be a perfect compliment to Love?

Think about him like Michael Beasley but he "gets it’

Love plays on the wing as much or more than he goes into the post, and Williams has a similiar inside/outside game. When Love wants to shoot 10 3-pointers, that’s not a problem because we still have someone who can take the ball down low, score, and get to the free-throw line.

When Love is willing to go on the block, Williams can spread the floor with his shooting, and driving abilities.

There is going to be some defensive issues with that duo, but nothing more (and probably less) than we have right now.

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I dunno

I really don’t know enough about him. Like I say, he might wind up a good player. It could work that way. It’s defending on the perimeter against 3s that worries me, but maybe he can do that.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 25, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't even disagree with your concern

Because it might be the one thing that keeps him from being a superstar, but that doesn’t stop anyone from relentlessly hating on Khan from passing up Curry (me included) or saying how we HAVE to get Kevin Martin…Do I think DWill is a superstar? I’d lean towards no, but potential All-Star? maybe like 3/4 times in his career? Absolutely, and flat out we don’t have another player like that on our roster, and 2 is better than one.

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

He turned from good, to being probably the best overall player in the game

Scoring efficiently is nothe only aspect of basketball. It’s nice that his improvement gives you warm fuzzies inside, but he still needs to defend a position in the NBA, and he is going to have to learn to score efficiently being guarded by guys taller and just as athletic or shorter and more athletic. Beasely was never able to adjust. Just because he’s a humble human being doesn’t mean he’s not a tweener.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

He was an excellent defensive player in college

both in the post and on the wing.

True it might not translate as well in the NBA, but almost every “draft expert/outlet” rates him as a potentially average to solid NBA defender, and if you are an efficient 20 ppg, average to solid is good enough

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I could get on board with picking Williams at #2

and trading Beasley. They have many of the same positional issues and such, but I think the chance that Williams hits his ceiling is much higher. However, Beasley was a better college player, and probably has more natural talent. Don’t forget how he tore the Big-12 up as a freshman. He destroyed everyone. It’s looking increasingly unlikely he ever really capitalizes on it, but he has a ton of ability.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 25, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

My take is Beasley’s potential is a 10, but there is realistically a 35 percetn chance he actually realizes all of it.

Where as Williams potential ceiling is a 9/9.5 but there I feel there is a 90 percent chance he can reach his full potential

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's quit high.

I give Beasley a 10% chance of reaching his potential and I think I’m being generous.

by zebano on Apr 25, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough

I don’t know how official any of our projections are anyways. The answer is simply: not high

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

INcorrect assertions of fact

From just DX

Defensively, Williams puts in a better effort than you typically see from a collegiate go-to guy. He does a good job of staying in front of opponents and shows strong fundamentals, as you would expect from a Sean Miller-coached player. He’s usually in an attentive stance both on and off the ball and does his best to bother his matchup, even if he lacks the physical tools to be overly productive in terms of getting his team extra possessions. The aggressiveness he brings on this end will lead to some foul trouble on occasion, though, which is something that has limited his minutes at times this season.

Not incredibly tall or long compared with some of the elite power forwards in the NBA, and surely lacking the quickness or experience to guard the perimeter effectively, NBA teams may struggle to project him as being anything more than an average defender at best at the next level.
WEAKNESSES – Defensive Rebounding: Where Williams lack of size really hurts him is on the defensive glass. In addition to getting caught watching the basketball and not holding his box out once in a while, Williams tends to get bullied around when the ball is in the air. The biggest example of that is when Williams gives up his inside position. Too many times, Williams gives up his position and lets his man get inside of him to the point it looks like he is the one trying to grab the offensive rebound. Add this lack of size to the fact that he doesn’t really hold his box-outs and that means he isn’t going to be grabbing as many rebounds as he should.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've read draft express

And I don’t really know what you are trying to prove.

Here is a list of things you have proven for me:

1.) He does a good job of staying in front of his opponents and shows strong fundamentals (a point for me)
2.) He’s usually in an attentive stance both on and OFF THE BALL. (point for me
3.) He does his best to bother his matchup, even if he lacks the physical tools to be overly productive in terms of getting his team extra possessions (point for me)
4.) The aggressiveness he brings will ;lead to foul trouble (even, because he is aggressive which you want, but he gets in to foul trouble)
5.) Not incredibly tall or long, and lacking lateral quickness (point for you)

I’m gonna be honest I don’t see how you don’t want this player with that laundry list

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

1.) He does a good job of staying in front of his opponents and shows strong fundamentals

At 6’8", staying in front of your man is good enough in college. In the NBA as a 4, people are going to abuse him. Note that the article states firmly he is a tweener, lack’s foot speed to stay in front of 3’s, lacks height to effectively guard 4’s even with good fundamentals.

Your other assertions about good stance, doing his best and aggresiveness are meaningless if he does not have the physical tools to matchup. Call me a crazy, but if you pick a guy at #2 overall, you hope he can guard one position on the floor. Williams cannot do this, just like Beasely can’t, just like Glenn Robinson couldnt, just like Gary Trent, just like Craig Smith, just like Randy Foye, just like the league history of tweeners.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Average defender at best at the next level"

Would potentially make him one of our best defenders. Certainly better than Beas.

by Vlade on Apr 25, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Key Words…At Best

Are Darko’s defensive abilities and Johnson’s defensive abilities “at best” better than Williams’, without a doubt a yes. The history of tweeners is unkind, draft Williams at your own risk. I think taking him would be devastating to our near term future.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Looks like our team building philosophies are not aligned.

Time will tell whether Williams can actual drop 20 a game, do it efficiently, and stay on the court due to defensive limitations. I stand firmly behind my tweener analysis.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

So you must hate Steph Curry then

and Kevin Martin and Monta Ellis and Kevin Love

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I just want good players

And I see very little scenarios where Williams does not develop into a good player

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is all a moot point anyway until the lottery,

but for me (and I do take the ‘tween reservations about Williams pretty seriously), the question would be whether another team might value him more highly than the Wolves would at that spot in a weak draft. “A good player” may be what we need, but that doesn’t mean we’re locked into the one who happens to fall at our slot in the draft order. If we’re not in love with the prospect, explore options.

You have to build a team actively. Trading for an established player, or even for a rookie from the last class who’s underachieved but who fits our situation better, is an option.

In any case the Wolves will not be drafting first or second, they’ll be fourth, where our options will include “European project center who’d go 10th in any respectable draft class” and “Lead guard with all the usual pros and cons, only even shorter.” Let’s not get all worried over how we’d deal with the pressures of #1 or #2. That’s totally uncharted water.

by feral on Apr 25, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Alec Burks in that scenario

I’m all on board trading the pick if you can get a fringe All-Star in return: Monta Ellis, Steph Curry, Martin, Granger. Some one like that, I’m all aboard. But I do not want to trade this pick for anything short of that. I’d rather role the dice with Alec Burks or Derrick Williams

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Get value, for sure. And be active.

A deal down a bit for Burks would be nice, but frankly in this draft class I’m not sure we come away with great perks for that.

by feral on Apr 25, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah... But Williams as opposed to Burks, how much difference is that?

I can’t really see such a move unless we’re within a larger package. But the two of them are separated by a nudge, you have to think, right?

by feral on Apr 25, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nope. My team building philosophy has always been that defensive is least important at the Point Guard position due to hand check rules. No one can keep Derrick Rose in fornt of you. I don’t mind Steph Curry, as a PG, but PG defense doesn’t bother me.

The thing about Kevin Martin was always whether he was worth his contract. Let’s also not forget that Kevin Martin wasn’t drafted #2 overall.

Finally, the biggest argument for not drafting Williams is that Kevin Love and Michael Beasely are already on the roster. If this wasn’t the case, my thinking on Williams may change, but probably not. He’s still a tweener and that is a giant risk.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Kevin Love and Michael Beasely are already on the roster"

and Tolliver, and AR, and Wes, and Webster, and Lazer.

So that makes, what, 7 young, slightly-to-wildly-flawed guys who can play either the three or the four? Out of 13 currently on the roster?

I’m fine with Williams as a player, but another one of those guys the Wolves do not need.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 25, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

I just emphatically disagree with the fact that Williams is the hands down #2 overall prospect and needs to be taken at that point. OBviously the fact that it’s likely a bunch of International prospects competing for that spot presents amateur scouting challenges, but I have no desire to pick the media created BPA and suffer through another losing season of poor defense and poor guard play with no lottery pick reward.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do you realize how much you guys want to have it both ways?

When Khan picks Wes Johnson over Demarcus Cousins you all rip him because he chooses the best fit over the best player

but if he chooses Williams over Burks you will all rip him because Burks is the better fit, where as Williams is clearly a more completely player, a more productive player, and has a higher ceiling

You can’t have it both ways.

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is BS

You seem to think that there is some sort of draft dogma. The problem is that this team spent 2 drafts building a mismatched roster that has now created a situation where even doing something as simple as taking the BPA creates problems. We’re not the ones who can’t have it both ways. The team is trying and you are seeing the results in action.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

As absentmindedprof so memorably put it,

This is a team that managed to strike out when trying to bunt with Wes. There’s our “trying to do it both ways,” distilled, tossing in inept talent evaluation.

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would say if you rip Kahn for drafting Williams 2

Then you are as fraudulent as he is

I’m not saying you will, you seem to like Williams enough.

But if you rip the man for poor draft strategy in the past, and then rip him for changing his draft strategy (maybe he realizes it doesn’t work) to BPA, then you are absolutely having it both ways.

I’m not saying you are in full force doing this, but I do believe the paragraph above is the text book definition of “having it both ways”

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

whatever, fine

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

ha

Am I wrong? Is that an incorrect assessment of the term: “having it both ways?”

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's an incorrect assessment of the issue at hand

Enjoy the continued talk with yourself about the necessity of monolithic decision making over time.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

But I don't disagree with you

about the issue at hand.

I don’t disagree about past draft failures and what we should have done.

I’m just staying consistent

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, because consistency is what matters the most in a changing environment

You might win a cookie for this approach somewhere else, but not here. It’s meaningless. Things change. People roll with the punches. People are judged for individual decisions and an awareness of the data at hand.

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

If there is one thing

I would ask of David Kahn, it’s that he would be less consistent.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 26, 2011 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Williams shot 60 percent FG!!!!

Single handedly beat duke

55 % three pointers

Advance stat junkies

65% eFG
69% TS
1.3 PPP

He’s a freaking good player no matter what stats you use, or what games you watch or what position you play him.

Screw, take the best player. Which Williams is.

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I can support that.

Irving > Williams > BB/Kanter > everyone else IMO

by zebano on Apr 26, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yep...

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 26, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Can we cite all his stats

Or just the one’s where he excels. There is no question he can shoot well while be guarded by college players.

Take a look at his reboudning numbers and his turnover rate, it’s not all rosy. There is no doubt that Williams is a good prospect, jsut not for this team in this draft IMO.

by Ebomb on Apr 26, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

and consider that rebounding translates pretty well

from college to the pros. Not very comforting at all.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 26, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't have a strong opinion in this debate,

But Williams does have reasonable rebounding rates, with an ORB% of 11.9 and a DRB% of 21.7. Numbers like that would put him in the top 20 among all forwards for ORB% this year and top 40 for DRB%. (That’s out of 161 players BB-ref has classified as forwards and played at least 500 minutes this year)

by hopps on Apr 26, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The turnover thing is legitimate

I’ve read numerous reports about that, but there is really no normal or advance stat that can possibly show that he wasn’t anything other than awesome, productive, and efficient in college

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's the issue with this though

Glenn Robinson is a fair comparison if you are going for a scare tactic, but even at that Big Dog scored 22 ppg in the NBA.

the other guys didn’t have the talent of Williams

I think if anything he’s probably going to be a lot like Danny Granger, Granger isn’t a great athlete, he’s solid but not great, not very long, doesn’t appear to be money from any one aspect of his game but very solid overall, but he has a great attitude, works hard to get better and just will’s himself to be a 22 ppg type guy.

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Derrick Williams being a tweener

I think he’s being short changed on his athleticism, he might be a tweener size wise and the fact that he largely played in the post in college. But he’s an athletic dude, with a jump, solid ball handling skills and the ability to get to the basket and dunk over 3 people at once, and get to the foul line. He will eventually be able to offensively play 3 in the NBA

by Wolvesguy on Apr 25, 2011 1:02 PM CDT reply actions  

One thing you should note

Is that you think he’s a 3, then he is only the 11th rated prospect using SNP draft rater. Food for thought since you seem to be making he’s the best statistical player left at #2, but also that he will play the wing in the NBA.

by Ebomb on Apr 25, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

No no no

Do I believe he can develop into a 3? Absolutely, he’s got the athleticism, the handle (better than anything 3 we already have), he’s got the shot, he can get into the lane and get to the line. If Derrick Williams has to be the 3 will he be able to play it after a season? Absolutely. I however am looking at our 4, who really plays offensively more like a three than he does a 4 and see a perfect marriage of talents on the offensive end.

Kevin Love shoots as many jumps as he does post-ups, and perhaps more. If he wasn’t so good at it, it would be annoying because we currently have very little inside.

Derrick Williams can shoot jumpers, but also has shown both when it comes to posting up and penetrating that he is a force on the inside.

I think of all the combinations of forwards we have had on this roster (Love/Jeff, Love/ Beasley) Derrick Williams might be the one to actually work with Kevin Love, because who ever the 3 on the team is going to be has to take it down low.

Defensively will there be some issues in 2011? Absolutely, but how many rookies in general step in and make a difference defensively right away? 1 a year? Defense is going to take time, but becoming good on defense is 1 part athleticism (which Williams has) 1 part effort (which he has) and 1 part IQ (which he has) there is no doubt in my mind he will not be a liability on defense in his career. I’m not gonna promise he will be exceptional, but he will not be a liability

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

The "3 plays the 4 on offense" thing

would work better with Beasley than it would with Williams. Did you watch the last game against Houston when Beas was the pick-and-roll forward? Looked pretty natural for him, and helped avoid those 21-foot jumpers that hurt his efficiency.

I’ll be a little bit surprised if Williams ever becomes the offensive force that Beasley currently is. I’ll be shocked if he is that as a rookie, when the team needs instant, signficant improvement.

by Andy G on Apr 26, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Derrick Williams will be a better player than Michael Beasley

barring some “come to Jesus” revelation from Beasley in which over night he transformers himself into the player he potentially could be.

Derrick Williams does everything Beasley does, and is more efficient and has a higher IQ.

Take this draft out of your opinion of Williams, put him in 2006,07, 08, or 09: HE’S STILL A TOP 5 PICK! In any draft (maybe not 08, but still he might be then too) players that are as productive as Williams are top 5 in any draft

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

You've got a lot of faith, I'll give you that.

Scoring 21.4 per 36 on decent efficiency is far from a given for almost any prospect. Derrick Williams is not in the “can’t miss” category of prospects that you can pencil in for a career of that level. Factor in “how” Beasley gets that production and how much room for his own improvement that there is, and it’s very unlikely that Williams becomes that good of an offensive player. Do you know how embarrassing it would be for Williams or any college wing to go into an NBA game and try the shots that Beasley MAKES? He’s a truly-professional scorer. Dribble jumpers with a hand in the face are not for kids, and Williams will really have to advance his game to get to Beasley’s current level.

You’re really reaching here. We ain’t picking Williams, so you might as well focus on another player. Even in the event that Kahn gives up on Beasley, it is still far-more likely that the move is Wes to the 3 and a trade or free agent at the 2. Giving up on Beasley at the 3 would almost-definitely equate to giving up on the Combo Forward at the 3 Experiment.

by Andy G on Apr 26, 2011 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

It is absolutely ridiculous

That I defend Beasley all season, I don’t want to give up on him etc, then I suggest we take Williams and don’t look back and Beasley is all of a sudden a player you don’t want to give up on.

I love beasley, and even with Williams I don’t know that I would trade him right away either. I think he has elite talent. I just don’t want to pass up on a really good bball player because we already have the fit on the roster. This is how Wes Johnsons happen right?

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know what you said about Beasley during the season

but right now, you’re saying that Williams is going to be Beasley without the weaknesses. That, to me, is unrealistic. Beasley has some rare abilities as a scorer that can’t be taken as a given for any prospect. His weaknesses limit his overall effectiveness as a player, to be sure, but it seems like there are a few people around here now with the “Williams = Beasley with a good head on his shoulders” thing. It’s far from a given that Williams will have Beasley’s strengths.

by Andy G on Apr 26, 2011 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think Williams will look something like Danny Granger in the pro's

Which isn’t as good as Beasley potentially could be, but what is the likely hood Beasley can reach that potential? With no point guard and the same coach, not likely

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

What I think you're failing to consider

is that the Wolves don’t get their lottery pick next year, and therefore this season needs to be about winning every game they possibly can. Even if Williams has Danny Granger upside, he won’t be Danny Granger next year. He’ll be rookie Derrick Williams. So, if we draft him it will be to replace Mike Beasley in future seasons and we will have gotten nothing from our lottery pick to help prevent Clippergedden.

If we draft Kyrie Irving, he’ll likely be our starting point guard and there’s a reasonable chance that he’ll be better than Luke Ridnour from the get-go (I don’t think this is a guarantee, but a better-than-50 percent chance.) He’ll be better than Telfair or Flynn, in any case, and our roster will have improved instantly.

Drafting Biyombo, which seems increasingly like the Most Likely Scenario, might help the Wolves instantly—particularly if they hire a coach that knows how to utilize a mobile post defender. Biyombo has pro experience and apparently a reputation for being a tenacious defender and rebounder. I can at least envision—if not expect—how that could help the Wolves instantly.

There aren’t many other scenarios in this draft where the Wolves keep their lottery pick and have made an instant improvement to their chances of winning. Williams, while perhaps a better prospect in the long term than Beasley/Randolph/Tolliver (arguable) would not be as good as those guys as a rookie. If we draft Williams, it will be to trade him. Hopefully for a veteran guard like Kevin Martin, but it may only be a trade down for someone like Biyombo. Hard to say.

by Andy G on Apr 26, 2011 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Williams is far more NBA-ready than Biyombo

It’s not even close. The team can trade Beasley (or whoever) to make room for Williams and the player they get in return will probably also be more prepared to offer the Wolves more than what Biyombo could offer in the 2011-12 season.

If you’re drafting solely to prevent “Clippergeddon” (something that’s not even guaranteed to be a strong draft until the CBA is worked out), Biyombo should be one of the furthest things from your mind come draft night.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll defer to Jonathan Givony

since I haven’t seen Biyombo play, ever.

But those who have been following Biyombo since he ascended to the senior roster of ACB team Fuenlabrada in early January were not caught off guard. He leads the most competitive league in the world outside the NBA in blocked shots and is amongst the league leaders in rebounding per 40 minutes and free attempts per 40.

He’s already one of the most productive players in the league, despite the fact that he might be the rawest player in the ACB in terms of experience.

I have little doubt that Derrick Williams is more NBA-ready than Biyombo to take the basketball on offense and do something useful with it. What I’m not sure of, is whether Williams compares as favorably to Beasley on offense as Biyombo may fare to Darko and Pekovic as a defensive presence. It seems that Biyombo might be NBA-ready as a defender/dunker/rebounder. Is that fair to say?

by Andy G on Apr 26, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

In my estimation Biyombo is ready to play 15mpg. Biyombo just has far, far too much work offensively and still needs to figure out how to get the most out of his abilities defensively. He’s a wild horse that needs a bit of taming – a QB that needs to hold a clipboard.

I’d rather roll with Williams than place hope in Biyombo. That’s whether the goal is getting the best showing out of the 2011-12 season or building for the future. It appears, however, that this is not the majority opinion held here or on other Wolves sites/forums.

Your general take on what he’s ready to give a team is the same as mine. However I think his defensive impact will be his weakside defense – post defense could still be better than Darko’s his first season… but I don’t think it’s going to be a big plus, since he’ll be transitioning from defending Euro PF/C’s to defending NBA C’s (assuming he gets all his minutes at C like most Wolves fans believe he should). Rebounding will be quite a bit of hustle/length/athleticism and less about boxing out… so that could fit very well with Love.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 26, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I believe Williams could be useful and might be able to play the 3

Piece is far from fast / quick yet manages to play good positional defense (with KG behind him). Can any of our coaches teach that? I doubt it but it’s feasible with a coaching change. That said, we absolutely don’t need another 4 and I think Webster is likely a decent starter (however, we will roll with Beas) and none of Wes/Webster/Beasley/A.R. are going to be easy to move in order to create playing time for Williams.

by zebano on Apr 26, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

In this draft yes

Imo he’s clearly the second best player in this draft.

I think he’ll be a fringe all-star career type player

and we just need good player, I would say it doesn’t even matter what position. Sure we have an elite PF but there is no guarantee he’s signing with us, maybe he freezes us out and we have to trade him! Idk, I just think we need a good player first, and worry about position second.

Maybe Williams and Beasley both develop and you can trade Love for James Harden, Ibaka and get OKC to facilitate a trade for a 2012 lottery pick.

I’m not saying you do that. I’m just saying take the BPA.

Isn’t this the place that I’ve defended Beasley being a starter and everyone wants him to be 6th man….well now is your chance!!!!!!

by Wolvesguy on Apr 26, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ugh. I just have a sinking feeling all the windows of opp have slammed shut. Short of drawing the #1 pick (and then doing the right thing with it) or some uncharacteristic display of creativity on the part of the FO… just looks like a waste of a wealth of assets they had not even two years ago.

I maintain that if the lotto’s rigged, though, this year might be as good of year as any that the league would offer an olive branch to the Wolves. Both Taylor and Kahn (we’re told) enjoy good relationships with Stern, and a top pick would go a long ways towards saving both their reputations; the top prospect, Irving, seems to lack the typical buzz of top prospects in other years; giving the Wolves the top pick could grease the wheels on getting Rubio (assuming he still has some marketability to him) to a coastal market; at least since last year, the Wolves lotto snubs are starting to generate some notice.

by jianfu on Apr 25, 2011 1:03 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm a big Williams backer

I’m no scouting guru or anything, but what I saw of his long range game leads me to believe he can play the SF in the NBA. I think his basement is the current version of Beas. His ceiling is much higher. Beas with a work ethic minus the mental defects. If he’s on the board and Irving is off, I take Williams without hesitation.

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 25, 2011 1:35 PM CDT reply actions  

Offense has much less to do with your position than your ability to defend

So whether or not Williams can shoot/handle isn’t that important. It’s if he can stick with guys on the perimeter and actually defend the 3 spot or if he’s too slow and has to play the 4.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 25, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Rudy Gay?

If the Pups miss out (or when the Pups miss out) on the Kyrie Lottery, what about a Beasley & the draft pick for Rudy Gay?

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=19559

by O-Train on Apr 25, 2011 1:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Rudy Gay signed a near Max salary deal last summer

He is hugely overpaid. We don’t want to commit to that kind of salary.

by xraraavis on Apr 25, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I want to commit to that kind of salary

I wonder if Beasley and Williams (who I’d assume they would take) + whatever salary filler would be enough for Rudy. Or if it’s done post-lockout, then maybe a filler isn’t needed.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

It won't happen, but I like to see Gay for Pekovic/Beasley/Flynn and Memphis' pick back.

They get Beasley, a replacement backup center, their pick and the worst player player in the NBA. Aw damn it Jonny you screwed up another one of my fantasy trades. I honestly think Jonny’s value would be much higher if he’d missed the entire season, but was projected to be 100% healthy this summer.

by Airete on Apr 25, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that it’s unlikely to happen. I don’t see why Memphis would want to blow up a young core that has a real possibility of upsetting a 1 seed… especially when I believe Gay is not a case of addition by subtraction, and therefore could have made them a much more dangerous club.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

money

The hoopsworld article indicated that they cannot keep the current group together without going over the cap by a lot. Moving Gay would give them a lot more flexibilty to resign Gasol & add needed depth at other positions.

by O-Train on Apr 25, 2011 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

How much do you think Gasol will demand? I figure he’s in that 10mil/yr price range where a lot of fringe all-star bigs get signed.

At that price, they’re at ~62mil… and depending on the new structure of the CBA that could be as little as ~4mil over the soft cap (if that still exists). Outside of that, they’d only be looking at resigning Battier and getting a backup C. I think them shedding Mayo for space (if Indiana is still interested) makes all of this manageable.

But this all relies on the new CBA, so I guess it’s not out of the realm of possibility for a financially-driven Rudy trade to be on the horizon.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah and I wanted to get in a jab about asset depreciation

The number 6 pick in 2009 depreciated the minute Flynn was selected. He played 2009-2010 and was supposedly worth approx the 10th pick of the 2010 draft. Now post 2010-2011 season how far has it fallen off?

Pekovic was the hands down lock at the 31st pick is his draft due to agent wanting him to not be locked into rookie scale contract by being a first rounder. Last year he was rumored to be worth number 14 from Houston. What’s he worth now?

Beasley was worth the #2 overall in the 2008 draft. Last year he was worth 2 second rounders so long as that team wouldn’t threaten the Heat (artificially lowered price, but a really pathetic price for the number 2 pick). What’s he worth now?

Pekovic/Beasley/Flynn in theory should have become a really attractive package of players, but it’s not looking that way.

by Airete on Apr 25, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Subtract Flynn and it's more attractive

Most teams won’t want to pick up the salary load of all three.

by timmuggs on Apr 25, 2011 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow.

Looked at this in confusion for about 10-15 seconds, and then burst out laughing. Thanks for that.

by LoveTo on Apr 26, 2011 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Figured if people didn’t get it then worth explaining, it was not.

Unless there’s some crazy second joke here that I haven’t even figured out yet…. Glad you could get a laugh from it.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 26, 2011 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Williams can flat out play.

If you watch him play you can see he can play in the NBA. He is not that small 6’8" in shoes and likely 230. He is strong for his size it is obvious that very little of the 230 is body fat. He is an elite athlete. As a tweener he will have match up problems but he will also present match up problems for his opponents. There are plenty of undersized power forwards in the league and there are also a lot of slow small forwards who getting significant playing time.

Most importantly his skill level is high. He can dribble, he can shoot the three and from midrange, he gets to the line, he dunks over people. The successful basketball players whether they are tweeners or not learn to minimize their weaknesses and accentuate their advantages. If he can do this he will be an NBA starter for a long time.

by xraraavis on Apr 25, 2011 1:54 PM CDT reply actions  

Williams has relatively long arms

This “size problem” is a non-factor to me… and is only coming up if he’s small compared to the KG’s, Gasol’s, or LMA’s of the world. Does Jamison have a size problem that kept him from being an all-star 4? David Lee? He’s probably going to measure out as 6’9 (in shoes) and a 7’1 wingspan… but I guess we’ll all have to wait for the pre-draft camp for those. The problems people have with him at the 4 should be about his skillset, not physical attributes. Same with him at the 3.

Basically I’m saying his skills can be labeled as a tweener, but since I find the label to be negative I don’t think it should be used to describe him physically or athletically… as there’s little to be negative about him from that perspective.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Apr 25, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good take

I am interested to find out how he measures out at the combine, because I agree that his wingspan looks pretty damn long. He has a pretty wide frame too, which means he could probably add a few more pounds of muscle. It seems like guys like him have a much tougher time figuring out the skills to play the 3 (guarding the perimeter, moving without the ball, pull up jumpers, etc.) as opposed to settling into their primary college position of a 4. Thad Young, Josh Smith, Tyrus Thomas, Lamar Odom….All these guys seem to spend the vast majority of time as 4’s even though they are ’tweeners in a lot of ways. Gerald Wallace, Andrei Kirilenko, and ’Melo have made the transition to 3, but it seems like more of the exception.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 25, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is fun and all

But boy do I miss playoff basketball.

by hipity on Apr 25, 2011 2:18 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Haha

totally agree.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 25, 2011 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Williams

feels to me like the ’Take home to Ma" version of The Beas. Which feels to me like a cheaper derivative that just kicks the problem solving down the road.

And i get the sense that the biggest problem pick we could possibly get would be the #2 pick, not the #1. Stuck in a box on that one…

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Apr 25, 2011 2:33 PM CDT reply actions  

Is this year's draft really any worse than last years?

Last year it was John Wall…this year it’s Irving….everything else…yawn.

Reduce turnovers, reduce personal fouls, shoot better, win.

by PoohRubio on Apr 25, 2011 6:43 PM CDT reply actions  

Pretty much.

Cousins is a player, but he’s also an idiot. Other than that, a lot of average players.

Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!

Green Bay Packers: Super Bowl XLV Champions!!!!

by Omaha Sun on Apr 25, 2011 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

People always forget monroe

He had a much better year than Cousins and is actually a good guy. Has a real chance to be a star.

by Vlade on Apr 25, 2011 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep, five years from now...

I’m guessing the 2010 who’s who of NBA starters will include in no particular order

Wall, Favors, Monroe, George, Cousins, Turner, Fields and Crawford

With rotation players including

Johnson, G Hayward, Patterson and Davis

Maybe not star heavy, but I think the overall talent level will prove to be deep at non-star starter to successful rotation player level.

by Airete on Apr 25, 2011 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Plenty of people were in love with Turner last year

I was shaking my head at the amount of people that would have drafted him ahead of Wall. It was basically 50/50 as I recall. He was looked at as a potential franchise saviour.

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 26, 2011 2:44 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

On this board?

Wow. I didn’t participate here, but I knew Wall was a stud, and that Turner had a lot of questions. I watched Turner a lot and really wasn’t sure his game would translate real well. I’m not sure what the Hoopus score was on Turner, but maybe this is a single case for scouting and such in the battle between scouting and stats. Not that you should ignore either.

You can't dust for vomit.

by twinstalker on Apr 26, 2011 5:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Man, the Grizzlies aren't messing around.

Up 12 on the Spurs and could go up 3-1 in the series.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 8:44 PM CDT reply actions  

It's a really enjoyable game.

Marc Gasol looks like the better Gasol at the moment, and the Grizz are playing inspired ball. This weekend has been great for me because I love upsets.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Holy crap.

You’re not kidding. Frustrating not to have coaching that reasonable on our side. Also frustrating that we couldn’t get a quick flip for Mayo done at the deadline.

by TheH on Apr 25, 2011 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I had no idea Darrell Arthur was this good.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 25, 2011 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pek would probably look better in the playoffs

i.e. players play harder in playoffs

Reduce turnovers, reduce personal fouls, shoot better, win.

by PoohRubio on Apr 25, 2011 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Pek is going to look a lot better next year.

He’ll have time to figure out the moving pick problem and the three-second thing. Plus, he’s got to start accumulating a bit of court cred so the refs don’t call every little thing on him.

That’s my hope, anyway.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm pretty impressed by Mike Conley.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

I had soda come out of my nose

when I heard about his contract. I still think it’s pure insanity, but… man… certain things are easy to overlook if you’re enjoying the playoffs.

by TheH on Apr 25, 2011 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

I guess I'm a weird basketball fan.

I don’t put any thought into contracts. That part of the situation doesn’t even interest me. I guess the whole business end of the sport doesn’t interest me.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 9:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't really get into it

unless the team is rebuilding and you have to decide on your guys. The Lakers/Celtics/Mavs etc… I haven’t looked at their books in a long time. But the young and cheap teams have to pin their colors to the mast at some point, and that’s interesting to watch. Unless it’s us, in which case I usually wish I were blind to sports.

by TheH on Apr 25, 2011 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

This "Williams is Beasley" stuff needs to end.

Williams had a very good season and is an alright athlete.

Beasley had a wrath of God season and is an excellent athlete.

In terms of position and roles, yes, Williams is Beasley. In terms of talent and production, get out.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Apr 25, 2011 11:34 PM CDT reply actions  

Thanks for the clarification

My initial thought if you were referring to this season was that God must be mellowing quite a bit in his old age.

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 26, 2011 7:07 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

just lookin' at the eye test

I wouldn’t say Williams is just an “alright athlete”. I think he deserves more credit than that. Also, while Beas is athletic, if he’s only going to use it to chuck ill-advised 18 foot jumpers, then what good is it?

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 26, 2011 2:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's got some Sir Charles competitiveness in him

"I don't use cliches, and I'm not about to change horses in mid-stream".

by Tangerine dream on Apr 26, 2011 7:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Williams for sure

"When I was younger, I could remember anything, whether it happened or not." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Apr 27, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Looking back at Beasley's year at K state

It’s just incredible to see what he did—61 TS% while using nearly 30% of his team’s possessions—he was an absolute beast in college. He hasn’t even sniffed that level of efficiency in the pros (on far fewer possessions). He’d be a good case to look into for why his game didn’t translate as well to the NBA. One basic problem is just small sample size (Beasley’s dominance was established over just a period of 33 games).

Might be something about his ability to dominate college players that didn’t translate to the NBA—he saw his FTA rate cut by more than half going from college to the pros. K-Love, by contrast, only saw about a 25% drop in FTA rate as a rookie, and he’s almost drawing FTAs at the same rate as he did in college now.

Williams has been more efficient than Beasley as a sophomore, but his efficiency was pretty comparable to Beasley as a freshman (on far fewer possessions). If you’re Kahn and you land #2, I think you have to ask whether you think his game translates better than Beasley’s does, because otherwise, it’s hard to imagine getting great value at #2 without trading out.

by WolvesFan03 on Apr 26, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Damn.

Denver is making OKC sweat hard. I am very happy (screw you, Zombie Sonics).

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 25, 2011 11:40 PM CDT reply actions  

Travis Leslie

I don’t watch college hoops, but being a t-wolves fan and following CH it’s difficult to not get caught up in the draft hype. So entirely based on videos and what I’ve read, Travis Leslie looks the goods for some sweet, sweet dunks.

If we aren’t going to win at least we can have some highlights.

by quessa on Apr 26, 2011 3:30 AM CDT reply actions  

One of the best athletes in the draft if no the best, good defender, very good rebounder, can't shoot at all.

Right now, he’s probably what Shannon Brown was when he was drafted, athlete, finisher, defender but a better rebounder.

by Magoo12218 on Apr 26, 2011 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Judge issues an injunction lifting the NFL lockout

very interesting (and what I guessed would happen) ruling out of Minneapolis. Judge ruled in favor of players request for an end to the lockout on the theory that they have no union anymore. I haven’t read the ruling yet, and the owners are appealing to the 8th circuit, but it’s a big win for the players

The judge did not rule on the merits of the anti-trust suit, but the implication is pretty clear that she, at least, doesn’t hold the owners’ position in much regard. The key issue will be what the appeals court does and when. This could have an affect on the NBA, if it gives the players confidence that they can take a similar approach.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 26, 2011 8:09 AM CDT reply actions  

suppose the owners lose their appeal

the lockout is officially illegal but the players still have no union. What is the situation then? The NFL operates without a CBA (because no union) or does it operate under an old CBA?

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 26, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think I said once before,

at that point it’s almost like any one individual contract situation could turn into a massive antitrust suit of some kind. “The Vikings want to sign me for more than the cap figure, and I want to go there – screw this, I wanna be the new Curt Flood.”

by feral on Apr 26, 2011 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ultimately, while something like this could happen, I doubt it will

This still will require a negotiated solution. What this ruling (and appeal if the players win) is strengthen their hand. It lets them work, for one thing, and get paid, which is the owners major leverage.

In the meantime, another case is in court in Mpls, which should be a slam dunk for the players IMO, about the television rights money the owners are getting even in the event of no games. The owners made a major mistake there.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 26, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

that’s what happens when you don’t negotiate in good faith for large sums of money. Eventually the otherside will prosecute and you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar. A smaller fixed payment payable to you instead of a larger payment if you are actually playing games doesn’t even pass the smell test of the most moronic person I have ever met. How did they think they were going to get away with that?

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 26, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of course, of course. Just like the owners will be "courteous" to players who show up for OTAs or whatever now.

I’m just saying, if they actually did attempt to run a whole season under existing terms only without a union, that would be next to impossible to keep stable. They have to resolve this at the table.

by feral on Apr 27, 2011 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is a difficult question

my sense is that they would operate under a previous CBA.

The whole situation is complicated. The players chose to file in MN because they have gotten good rulings there before (frankly, the NFL is about 0-fer the last 3 decades in litigation). But the 8th circuit court of appeals tends to be conservative and pro-business. They might have been better off filing in CA, hoping for a good district judge, and getting the 9th circuit for the appeal.

There’s a lot here. Perhaps I’ll write more later.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 26, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think this falls in limbo

where its an uncapped year and teams can sign whoever they want…BUT once a new CBA is signed everyone will need to fit inside it. How that transition works will be open to debate and some team that went out and spent will be caught in an uncomfortable place and have to bleed players to make it back under.

Bigger question for the owners…what about revenue sharing? I suppose that has nothing to do with the CBA, but it will be an interesting twist since it is only that money that allows some teams to sign additional players.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 26, 2011 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mayor Emanuel, is that you?

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 4:31 PM CDT reply actions  

That's Mr. Downer to you.
www.canishoopus.com

by Stop-n-Pop on Apr 26, 2011 4:37 PM CDT reply actions  

So uh...

what are you trying to say? You think Oklahoma City is prettier than me?

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 26, 2011 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

And this thread has a winner

close it down everyone.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 26, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

So it's the same there as here?

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 26, 2011 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do they

attach their keyboards to random walls there?

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 26, 2011 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

No need

The internets on this side are nothing but tubes.

by Steve Perry of Journey on Apr 26, 2011 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hoopus Score Question

I was looking back at some of the scores from the past couple years and I’m wondering has the equation for your score changed significantly over the last couple years? Either the raw score equation or the equation for what goes into the adjusted score?

by Gophers12 on Apr 27, 2011 10:27 AM CDT reply actions  

What about the Bensen Kid on Oakland?

He looked like he was pretty skilled and has legit size

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Apr 27, 2011 11:37 AM CDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Canis Hoopus is straight T-Wolves straight from Minnesota.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Rubio_wolfrider_small
2011/2012 Rookie Review
Abby_s_030_small
Top Ten Reasons David Kahn is a Better Basketball Mind than Sam Presti
Rubio_wolfrider_small
Ricky Rubio: Probably not as good as you think...
Small
Around the League: Atlanta Hawks

Recent FanPosts

Rubio_wolfrider_small
PA100 Atlantic Division
Small
End of Dan Harmon - Community
New_look_primary_logo_1989-96_100_small
Jae Crowder participated in NJ combine...
Small
Possible that Perry Jones = Paul George?
Small
Evan Fournier
557415_10101880206283470_13960869_76835255_1401292386_n_small
Poll: Do the NBA playoffs live up to their potential?
Rubio_wolfrider_small
PA100 Northwest Division

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Canis Hoopus Twitter

    follow me on Twitter

    Hoopus Features

    HOOPUS FAQ

    Salary Cap Info

    Draft Info

    Player Movement Flow Charts

    Draft Boards

    Former Tag Lines:

    • In desperate need of an epic dose of basketball Viagra
    • Your source of radical left wing politics cleverly disguised as basketball fandom
    • Palin-Free since before statehood
    • Despairy Home Companion
    • The world's leading exporter of small area quickness
    • Sorry…I have no idea who is Joe Mauer
    • Home of the Peja deep douche
    • Vote McGrady!
    • Bork, bork, bork, bork, bork
    • Wir Sind Darko
    • Weird, unhealthy Darko mania
    • les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas
    • Basketball success makes character issues forgivable
    • Building the Boogie Bandwagon
    • Building the Dream....One Power Forward At A Time
    • Kids, Puppy Dogs, And Long Walks In The Park
    • SWITCH THE FLIP!!!
    • Team Red Pill.
    • December is Bunny Month. Survive it with insincerity and Merle Haggard.
    • Like having a really good seat at a beheading.
    • We've got to have rules and obey them. After all, we're not savages. We're Wolves fans, and Wolves fans are best at everything.
    • Getting Real Mythological
    • Trapped in Punxsawawney
    • BIIYYYOOOMMMBOOOOOOO!!!
    • Estoy llevando mi talento a Minnesota
    • Where sharks do battle with giant eagles
    • You don’t put a saddle and reins on a magical unicorn, you bareback it and put faith in nature
    • Toeing the line between nerd and loser
    • If Theo Ratliff’s Expiring Contract could see us now...

    Hoopus Recipe Book

    Let's Settle This:


    Self-Promotion

    BallHype Sports Blog Rankings


    Managers

    Dr wyn

    Journey_small Stop-n-Pop

    Rviy7fbgmhz5ht2dpgo6q0jfu_small TimAllen

    Editors

    Wolveslogo_small Oceanary

    Authors

    Small SG

    Hrbek_small Jon Marthaler