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Projecting Derrick Williams

Derrick Williams

PF

6'8" 235

19 years old

Derrick-williams-three-point-play-video_medium

via cdn.everyjoe.com

Derrick Williams had a great sophomore season.  He built on his good freshman performance and became one of the best players in the NCAA last season.  He has a diverse and efficent offensive game, and sports an amazing 69% true-shooting score.  He can score from outside (56% on 3 pointers), he can score in isolation, and he can score in the post (96th and 92nd percentile respectively among this year's NCAA players accoring to synergy sports [5].)  While there are some concerns about his rebounding, ball-security, and defense, he is likely to be a major contributor early in his career.

Star-divide

NBA Projection:

Both the 09 and 08 drafts also had a high-usage athletic forward locked into one of the top 2 draft spots.  While Griffin isn't nearly as good of a Williams comp as Beasley, it should be useful to look at how this year's top forward measures up to the most recent 2.  Unfortunately for teams at the top of the draft (i.e. TWolves), the 2011 incarnation of the athletic scoring forward is not up to snuff with his predecessors.

                                pnts/40min         TS%        3Pt (att/40min)    reb/40min  block/40min           PER           WS/40

Beasley (fresh)         33.3                61%            .379 (3.7)                15.7                2.1                  39.3               19.5       

Griffin (soph)             27.3                65%            .375 (.3)                   17.3               1.4                  37.3                21.2

Williams (soph)         26                   69%            .568 (2.6)                11                  0.9                  32.5                15

 

Williams scored less but at a better rate, was a considerably weaker rebounder, and measured out lower on both metric stats.  Not shown here, Williams gets fewer steals, commits more fouls, and turns it over more than both Beasley and Griffin.  None of the three were much of distributors (.05 assists/possession for both Williams and Beasley and .12 for Griffin.  The bright point for Williams is definitely his scoring efficiency.  In order to evaluate how his impressive TS% will translate to the NBA we first need to see where it comes from. 

One thing that stands out is his 3-point success.  Williams took 2.6 3s per minutes and hit them at a blistering rate of 56.8%.  This is in stark contrast to Williams' freshman year where he barely took any 3s (0.2/40min) and only hit 1/4th of them.  It is likely this is something Williams worked hard on in the offseason, and if so, it paid-off.  That said, 56.8% is not sustainable.  Could Derrick Williams's TS% be inflated by his flukishly high 3pt%?  It doesn't look like it.  Even if we assume William's real 3pt% is a much more pedestrian 35% it only knocks his TS% down  to 66%, which is still a very impressive rate.   

The more likely explanation for Williams' high TS% is his very impressive free-throw rate.  Looking at FTA/FGA, Williams compares very favorably to both Beasley and Griffin.  With 0.87 free-throw attempts for every shot attempt, Williams had the 3rd best rate in the NCAA last season.  This doesn't look to be a fluke either.  He put up a 0.82 FTA/FGA rate his freshman season.  Comparing this to Beasley's 0.48 and Griffin's 0.61 (both good rates) we can see just how important getting to the line was for Williams' success in college. 

Players that can get to line are very valuable at every level of basketball, so this appears to be a big strength for Mr. Williams.  However, free-throw attempts in college don't explain much of the variation in free-throw attempts in the NBA (R^2=0.27 [3]).  This means players who get to the line in college do not necessarily get to the line in the NBA, while players who don't get to the line in college may still find a knack for it in the NBA.  It is very likely that Williams will not spend as much time at the charity-stripe in the NBA as he did at Arizona.  One caveat to this point is that I do not know how well NCAA FTA/FGA predicts NBA FTA/FGA, I only know how predictive the raw number of free-throw attempts is.  This means that the low r^2 for FTA college to pro could be due to poor correlation between usage or shot attempts, rather than ability to get fouled.  This could be a very important caveat given that Williams may still be a high usage player in the NBA.  Projecting Williams' scoring efficiecy into the NBA is further complicated by the fact that collegiate scoring efficiency from the field is only weakly correlated with scoring efficiency in the NBA (r of eFG=0.24 [4]).   

The poor man's Beasley comp seems like a good one.  However, it may not be useful depending on how you interpert Michael Beasley's failed career (thus far).  Has Beasley failed to translate his awesome college production to the NBA due to idiosynchratic personality issues, or because he is a tweener that can't find his niche?  If it is the former, there is good reason to hope for Williams to realize some of the potential Beasley couldn't (even if he doesn't offer as much of it).  If your interpertation is the later, it is hard to find a niche for Williams as well.  If anything Williams is smaller and less athletic than Beasley, and even as a sophomore did not have as well-rounded of a game as freshman Beasley.  The biggest problem for tweeners comes on the defensive end.  Williams is credited as a hard worker, and at least a decent defender at the college level, but it is easy to imagine him following the path of players like Michael Beasley, Glenn Robinson, and Jeff Green who manage to hurt their team even while putting up numbers on offense.

Another comp offered by NBADraft.net that I like, is David West.  I like this one because I think Williams' most likely path to success is as a 4 in the mold of David West.  A complimentary offensive player that knocks down mid-range shots, and can post-up, but prefers to take bigger 4s off the dribble.  West and Williams have a pretty similar physical profile and they look comparable based on college production as well. 

 

                                      Pnts/40          TS%        FTA/FGA      Reb/40     Blk/40    TO/40       PER        WS/40     

Williams (Soph)         26                   69           0.87                 11                  0.9          3.5          32.5       15

West (Jr)                      21.4                61           0.66                 11.4               2.9          3.6          29.1       13.7

                West's production his sophmore year was very similar to his junior year, but I can't find any advanced    stats for that season, or all of the stats I need to calculate them myself.

 

Both players had a prolific and efficient offensive game in college, both could get to the line, and both were serviceable but not great rebounders (although West averaged 12.9/40min in both his sophomore and senior seasons).  Williams looks like the superior scorer, and his scoring is responsible for his slightly better scores in the composite-metrics (PER and WS/40).  West has managed to be a decent NBA defender in spite of his average size and athleticism, and hopefully Williams can emulate West's success.  However, I am skeptical he will be able to do this.  West is a little bigger and stronger, and I'm not sure he is any less athletic.  West was much more effective blocking shots in college than Williams, and given that blocking ability in college is highly predictive of blocking ability in the NBA (r^2=.93 [3]) this will almost certainly be the case at the next level.  Much more likely is that Williams is ultimately an OK man defender, but never able to collect blocks and rebounds like West.

I have another projection for him that I haven't heard elsewhere.  He is an under-sized offensive-minded 4.  He is a prolific but efficient scorer.  He has good but not great athleticism and a high basketball IQ.  He is an average distributor and man defender.  He is a mediocre rebounder and shot-blocker.  He is Luis Scola.

 

                                    Pnts/40            TS%           Reb/40          Asts/TO           PER                 WS/40     

Williams (10/11)        26                   69                 11                   .43                   32.5                  15

Scola (01/02)           25.4 (26.9)       62 (70)        8.1 (7.8)         .63 (.58)      24.5 (28.2)            9.4 (12.3)            

                These are Scola's numbers from his second year playing professional basketball (2011/12).  The first numbers are his ACB stats and the second are from the Euro league.

Scola was about a year older than Williams at the time, but he was also playing in a more difficult league.  I'm not sure how to compare NCAA/Euro numbers, but the gestalt of the two players is pretty similar.  Both are able to score a lot of points without compromising efficiency, and both are unimpressive nearly everywhere else.  Scola has better footwork while Williams is the better leaper, both look quick for bigs, but neither is an athletic freak.  If Williams retains his scoring prowess, expect his NBA production to look a lot like Scola's.

 

Final player-comparison verdict:

Poor man's Beasley  ---->  a springier Luis Scola

 

Fit:

Terrible. 

Four of our five best players are PFs, three of them are undersized, and one of them has almost the same skill-set as Williams. 

If Williams is a PF as I suspect, he should be drafted to be traded.  This could be avoided if we have a coach that is willing to play Love at the 5, but I'm not going to bank on that.  If Williams really is a SF we can make him fit, but it will necessitate that we move one or more of Beasley/Wes/Webster (not that I would cry over any of them departing.) 

The best argument I can find for Williams on the Wolves is that we need a player that can hit the ground running.  Williams is more ready to make an impact than nearly anyone else in this draft.  We will need to shake-up the roster to make him work, but after last season we should be doing that anyway.

 

Conclusion:

Williams seems like a lock to be the 2nd pick in this draft.  I agree with that projection, but more due to my pessimism with the rest of the class than my view of Williams' potential.  Outisde of Irving, Derrick Williams is the most likely player in this draft to be a career starter.  However, his likelihood of developing into a "star" is pretty low. 

Most of Williams' appeal as a prospect comes from areas that do not translate well to the NBA: scoring, scoring efficiency, free-throw attempts (r^2=0.34, r=0.24, r^2=0.29) while he lacks production in the key areas that translate very well to the NBA: rebounds, blocks, and assists (r^2=0.83, 0.93, and 0.88 respectively [3]).

Williams has the potential to be a really nice and efficient offensive player.  He can score inside and outside, he can score posted-up, he can score with or without the ball, and in college he did all this without wasting many posessions.  In the right situation he could end up being a really nice player.  On the other hand, Williams is unlikely to ever fill-up the stat sheet, most problematically in regards to rebounds (assuming he is a 4).  Add to that the fact that Williams may be too slow to guard 3s and too small to guard 4s, and it seems like Williams is destined to be a limited player in the NBA.  If he can retain his excellent scoring and efficiency, I will be happy to look past his other deficiencies, but it is hard to see him as a true star at the next level.

 

References:

1.  Draft Express  (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Derrick-Williams-5811/)

2.  NBAdraft.netet  (http://www.nbadraft.net/players/derrick-williams)

3.  Basketball-Statistics (http://basketball-statistics.com/howdoncaastatisticstranslatetothenba.html)

4.  Courtside Analyst (http://courtsideanalyst.wordpress.com/2011/03/05/the-mystery-of-landry-fields-and-demarcus-cousins-the-weak-correlation-between-collegiate-effective-scoring-and-nba-effective-scoring/)

5.  Sebastian Pruiti (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Derrick-Williams-5811/)

Comment 211 comments  |  14 recs  | 

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Nice Post

I think this is a very fair assessment of Williams. I still think trading Beasely and inserting a rookie Williams is a step backward for next season and offers us no real long term improvement. While trading out of the pick would be nice, it’s not a given that their will be demand to do so.

I still would take BIyombo or Burks over Williams for this team for this draft.

by Ebomb on Apr 27, 2011 9:12 AM CDT reply actions  

I have a feeling

that if a team passes on Williams they will look back and see what a huge mistake it was. Don’t forget, we’re the bottom feeder of this league. People say we have a core, but we don’t. For those who think we do they’ve been listening to Kahn and Rambis too much, 2 guys that need to take a permanent vacation. I believe Williams and Irving are the gems of the draft, and if you can draft one of them you do, and don’t pass on them. I don’t care what we have at the 4 position – which is what Williams is, he will not play the 3. Biyombo scares the hell out of me. Guys who all of the sudden pop up like that to rise up the boards, I just don’t trust them. I mean of course I’d take him with our pick at 20, but to use a top 3 pick on him? Wow. I can’t believe so many people would do that. But I do agree with you on Burks. If Williams and Irving are gone, Burks is my next choice. Even at #3.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I have a feeling

That your feeling is completely wrong.

by Ebomb on Apr 27, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Also to supplement my retort

I"m pretty sure Williams was just as a much of a sudden pop who rose up the boards. He had a pedestrian Freshman Year , and wasn’t even the most highly rated recruit on his team, only to skyrocket up the draft board this year.

by Ebomb on Apr 27, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

You could say the same for Burks though...

And you and I both love Burks. His sophomore year he rose up the charts. So did Williams. Biyombo did it in 2 weeks. That’s all I’m saying…

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

But I'm not saying don't pick Burks or Biyombo because they are late risers

You are saying that, which I refuted, and now you change your argument. That’s all i’m syaing…

by Ebomb on Apr 27, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry if I have confused…. I guess I’m saying that Burks and Williams are not late risers. They slowly rose over a year’s time with consistent play. Biyombo came out of nowhere the last few weeks. Will he be a stud? I have no idea, but so many people on this board are convinced that he will be without watching him over a year’s time, like we all did with Burks and Williams.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with you.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd like to have Biyombo on my team

He’d be the perfect gamble if we could somehow nab Irving/Williams/Burks with our top pick, then maneuver somehow to also grab Biyombo. That way you’ve got one “sure thing” and one gamble, with that gamble having a very high and low ceiling….

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Getting two young players

From an awful draft, with a roster already consisting of young players, is not the best team building strategy IMO. I would think if we do any trading it would be trade out of the lottery entirely, not to double down once again on the draft.

Derrick Williams is goint to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 27, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

this

they need some established help

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see what you are saying, but...

The wolves aren’t even close to sniffing the playoffs. We are still a few years away. We have sucked at drafting. That is why I want Kahn out of there. Imagine if we had a GM who actually knew how to draft. And he hit 2 bullseyes with those picks, and they were Burks and Biyombo. What’s wrong with being talented AND young? Especially if you’re not a playoff contender. If this team ever expects to get any better it’s going to be through the draft. No free agents that matter will ever come here. Just because we would be getting 2 more rooks doesn’t mean we can try to add some vets as well. But again, for the wolves, the difference makers will always come from the draft, and the role players will always come from free agency or trades. I just look at how OKC built their ship.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

So you would PREFER to pass on Williams?

That’s the premise we’re operating under in this discussion.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

We aren't convinced that Biyombo will be a stud.... we are looking for basketball Jesus because reality isn't that hopeful.

We went from having 4 first rounders including the 5th and 6th overall in the 2009 draft, Kevin Love as a very promising rookie, Al Jefferson as a flawed, but skilled player and a new GM and cap space to work with (where hope was completely rational)

to

Where we are now.
After 6 first rounders in the last two years we finished with the worst record in the NBA. Love is an all-star that should have hesitations about extending here. Beasley was certainly worth 2 second rounders, but his rookie deal is coming to and end. Johnson and Flynn haven’t established themselves as surefire starters on the last place team in the NBA. Darko turned out to be Darko and not Darkheem. Pekovic struggled like a 19 year old rookie and not the 25 year old we hoped for. Webster’s season was F’d up with an injury we aren’t certain how he’ll eventually recover from. Rubio stayed in Europe and regressed. The potential lock out looms over and weakens the draft. Clippergeddon has grown from painful to redonkulous. No one has been held accountable for failure.

On top of this we’ve watched Lebron, Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer, Al Jefferson, Carmelo Anthony, STAT, D-Will etc change teams with our only contribution being sending out Big Al for a couple protected first rounder.

Now we are stuck in limbo watching other teams play in the playoffs hoping the lottery smiles on us in a weak draft. Hope is harder to come by. If we get the number one pick it’ll pick up. In the meantime, Biyombo is about the best we can do to irrationally get excited for next year. Rubio hasn’t signed. No trades have occurred. No one has been held accountable for failure.

So anyways…..yeah

by Airete on Apr 27, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Fair enough...

But I’d rather draft a litte more of a sure thing with my top 3 pick than Biyombo. He’s just such an unknown. If we have the 3rd pick and Williams and Irving are gone, I either take Burks at the spot or try to trade down a few and then nab Burks, and maybe Biyombo with a flyer pick. As I’ve mentioned before if we could deal with Utah for their picks, give them #3 and #20 and filler for #6 and #12, you could take Burks and possibly Biyombo if he is still there. If Biyombo gets picked before 12 you’d still have a shot at some other difference makers. But again, i just don’t want to use our top pick on such an unknown, no matter how his u-tube highlights look. 2nd pick, yes, first pick, no.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree.

I think you can take gambles when your team is good. When you’re horrible, take the sure thing.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

exact opposite

Especially in this draft, there are no sure things, other than Irving. We need a home run big-risk pick to get out of limbo, and that’s Biyombo…limbo Biyombo. Otherwise, we have Johnson and Flynn 2. oh no.

by monkeywolf on Apr 27, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think

Burks’ ceiling is similar to Biyombo, but his floor is way higher. Burks has the potential to be a dynamic #1 scorer and facilitator. I think his shot is better than most and that he’ll be a good shooter/scorer. But if the shooting part of his game doesn’t pan out, he will always be an outstanding ball handler, driver, and someone who gets to the line. Biyombo supposedly has a ceiling around Ben Wallace, who in his prime, was outstanding. I’m not even sure what his floor is frankly, simply because I haven’t seen him other than what is on the net.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Manny Harris

is a realistic downside comparison for Alec Burks. Harris had a worse shooting percentage, but significantly-more assists and about equally-good rebounding. Harris was on mediocre Michigan teams like Burks’ Colorado team. Harris is 6’5" and skinny, Burks is 6’6" and skinny.

“Dynamic #1 scorer and facilitator” in the NBA means what— Dwyane Wade or Brandon Roy? I think Manny Harris is 10x more likely to be Burks career comparison.

None of this is to say I wouldn’t draft Burks—just that I wouldn’t draft him with very high hopes that we added an impact player of any sort. Seems like a crappy draft.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

He sort of reminds me of Ronnie Brewer

which I think would be a terrific result for him.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Manny Harris

is nothing like Burks and he is not Burks’ floor. Harris dribbles the ball off of his leg and couldn’t get to the rim if he took a taxi. Burks will always be able to have the ball on a string, even with his eyes closed. I’ve watched Michigan hoops for years and I never considered Manny Harris a pro prospect, so no, he’s not Burks’ floor. Similar build, maybe. But yes. Your Dwayne Wade comparison holds some water as far as their STYLES. Not saying he’s as good or going to be as good as Wade, but they play the same style.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

The only time I saw Manny in college, live

was when he tore apart the Gophers his junior year at The Barn. He looked like a pro—very solid off the dribble to score or pass. But, I would never have expected that he would be able to play that style, with success, at the NBA level. It takes pretty special skill and athleticism to be that do-it-all guy in the pros. If Burks had it to the level you think he does, I really think they would have been playing in the NCAA Tourney. It was not a difficult year to at least get his team that far.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair enough...

2 factors though. Big 12 is murderer’s row, and his team had terrible dynamics. They had 2 other players who thought they were better than they actually were and always thought they should shoot whenever the ball touched their hands. And they had zero inside defensive presence. not sure if this is off topic, but we could draft as low as #4, correct?

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo will not get you out of limbo. Sorry.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not sure how Burks is a sure thing.

For that matter, I’m not sure how any of the non-Irving players are sure-things.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ya

I knew someone would say that. I like Burks more than most. He’s number 3 on my big board I guess….

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Bluntness of your "fit" entry made me smile.
Four of our five best players are PFs, three of them are undersized, and one of them has almost the same skill-set as Williams.

by feral on Apr 27, 2011 9:38 AM CDT reply actions  

So that would be Love, Beasley, Tolliver and who?

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey! What rules are we playing by here?

It was darn close to simultaneous, ‘cause I started typing “Randolph” before you posted that. Couldn’t have actually been a full minute.

To be fair, I’m not that familiar with the rules of “message board jinx.”

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 27, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

oh, duh...

I mean’t to write Randolph and then put a fat question mark after Tolliver.

He’s not really a top 5 on the wolves is he? I’d rather have Ridnour or Wes.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ridnour would be the other one of the five

Wes may get better, but last season Tolliver was a lot better than Wes.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 27, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Man...

depressing.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

IMO, based on last years performance

Love > Ridnour > Tolliver > A.R. (tiny sample size) > ??? maybe Beasley, maybe Webster and everyone else seemed to be below replacement level.

by zebano on Apr 27, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

By the way I disagree

that Williams is anything close to Beasley. Beasley is a volume shooter and doesn’t use his body/strength to get to the rim as much as he should. Williams is way more efficient, doesn’t chuck up shot after shot, and uses his body in Blake Griffin fashion to attack the rim. Williams is a guy that teams would fear physically. That is HUGE to have on a team.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 9:48 AM CDT reply actions  

Beasley was not a "volume" scorer in college...

at least not in the pejorative sense. He may have scored more than Williams, but he still did it at a highly efficient TS% of 61. BTW, Williams’ TS% was 62 his freshman year. Williams was really efficient, but he was not way more efficient than college Beasley. This is where the poor predictive power of college scoring efficiency comes in. Williams may still be an efficient scorer in the NBA, but he may not be. It sure didn’t translate for Beasley. How that plays out will largely determine Williams’ success.
If Williams does consistently attack the basket relative to Beasley in the NBA, I will have some real hope for his success. I am skeptical that anyone will “fear Williams physically” in the NBA. He is not a freak athlete at that level.

by vjl110 on Apr 27, 2011 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Every single game I watched Williams he tore the rim off the hoop. He WAS physically dominant in college. And he prooved it in the tourney. When he wants to attack he will slam in your face, similarly to Griffin. So I wholeheartedly disagree with your take on his non-freakiness… ;-)

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Williams was dominant athletically in college..

the problem is that you can say that for pretty much every player ever drafted in the first round. Williams is one of the more impressive athletes in this draft, but the NBA is draft after draft of players sifted down to the freakiest of the freaks. I think Williams looks athletically like a slightly smaller, slightly less athletic version of Michael Beasley. No use arguing about it until we see the combine numbers. My bet is that Beasley measures out bigger, quicker, springier, and stronger. I’m prepared to be wrong on this (it would not be the first time), but it is my impression.

by vjl110 on Apr 27, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I guess the athleticism part is debatable, but I like what Williams does with his. It’s his aggression going at the hoop. I love that about him. So it’s more of a mindset type of thing rather than an athleticism thing. Maybe even a toughness thing. I think Williams is 10X tougher than Beas.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did you see Beasley play in college?

He was unreal. In no way, shape or form did Beasley lack aggression at Kansas State.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 27, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nor does he for the Timberwolves, on offense.

He just settles for jumpers because he’s not quick-enough to consistently get to the basket from 22-feet, and he charges when he forces that action.

When he gets near the hoop, Beasley is plenty aggressive in attacking the basket. Look at what happened when he tried to dunk on the Lakers and Bynum gave the forearm shiver.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Good point

It did seem to me though, that Beasley was much, much more intent on getting close to the rim and forcing the action in college. And I don’t think it was just that he had a much more decided physical advantage at that level (although that’s a big part of it), I think it has to do with his mindset and how coaches have decided to use him.

I harp on this occasionally, but Beasley should be getting a significant amount of deep post touches if he’s playing SF. His biggest advantage is there. I think he’d draw a lot more FT’s and score much more efficiently if the coaches found ways to put him in position to do that.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 27, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

totally agree with

your statement of posting up beas when he’s playing the 3. down low, the pinch post, post him up, he can either face, pivot and go, or use that silky fadeaway. same goes for Wes at the 2. For about 2 weeks in January (I think) they made an effort to post him up a bit when he was playing the 2 and it was going great. then they went away from that, which really frustrates me. and ya, i loved what i saw from beas in college. he was a beast. but he plays a little differently in the nba as compared to his ametuer days. if he could keep his motor going all the time during games he’d be a beast once again. all his life, up through college, he could get by with 75% effort and still dominate. now he needs to realize that it takes 100% all of the time, and IF he does, look out.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think they tried to run sets posting up Beasley

but his version of a post up is to come across the lane, keep going….keep going….and then to receive the ball 20 feet from the rim with his back to the basket. Then he decides to face-up. He simply doesn’t fight hard enough for position.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 27, 2011 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well the thing about the triangle

is that you can shift sets around so that you can get the ball to any player in any position, be it perimeter, high post, or low block.

Hey wait, Rambis sucks, never mind.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 27, 2011 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's comparing the college numbers

Beasley used his body and strength in college and was a better college player than Williams. The comp is pretty legit in my book.

by jama on Apr 27, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Comparing numbers..

..is not even close to comparing players. I don’t think beasley and williams are the same type of player one bit. I would say williams transitions to a more gerald wallace-type. A guy who gets his points by doing the dirty work and banging. A big 3 that can play the 4, but in the nba is too undersized to be a permanent PF.

Also, big fan of wallace so i’d take williams and trade beasley. Big upgrade defensively, less money, much higher basketball IQ…

by ackledude13 on Apr 27, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

If Williams is Gerald Wallace...

Sign me up.

Wallace is a difficult comp, because he wasn’t much of a college player, and took quite a few years in the NBA to really put it together.

by vjl110 on Apr 27, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

I have to say

That when I watched Williams against Duke, he reminded me a lot of Wallace. Doubt he ever approaches him defensively but he attacks the hoop in a similar way and seems to have excellent springs.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 27, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Compare the Players when they were in College then.

When in college Beasley played very similar to how Williams played. Michael Beasley was a completely different player in college than he was this past season for the Wolves. You can’t compare Williams to Beasley in the NBA because Williams hasn’t played in the NBA yet. What makes you think that Wililams will transition into a Gerald Wallace? I have a feeling that Williams is going to test out as an inferior athlete to Gerald Wallace.

I have no problem trading Beasley if Williams is the draft pick as I think we’ve seen what Beasley is and he isn’t going to change much, in fact I’d be mad if they kept both. That doesn’t mean that Williams might not turn out to be the same player as Beasley with a better head on his shoulders.

by jama on Apr 27, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Williams is Wallace? What?

I think people are really overrating Williams’ athleticism.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Apr 27, 2011 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

No joke

Young Wallace was a sick athlete. He averaged 2.5 blocks/2.1 steals one season. He’s appeared in two dunk contests (and competed in one).

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 28, 2011 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Translation coefficients

Thanks for the nice work, vjl110. I wanted to mention one possible problem with the studies you have been citing on NCAA/NBA stat translations: many of these stats are sensitive to usage. Almost all drafted players have a fairly high usage rate in college (they are essentially “the man” on their college teams) but only some of those players will see a similar usage rate in the pros — many will see a lot fewer possessions per minute. So we would expect these players to have fewer FTAs per minute and fewer offensive fouls per minute (notice that PFs/minute had a similar correlation coefficient to FTAs/minute) , and also — because of the reduced usage — to have a higher eFG% and lower TO rate. Ideally, someone with time on their hands would actually study the correlations based on per-possession stats, with adjustments for usage, but until then I would caution against taking the claim that efficiency does not translate too seriously.

by hopps on Apr 27, 2011 9:54 AM CDT reply actions  

I am with you 100% on this issue.

That is where my skepticism over using the r^2 of FTA college to pro to project Williams comes from. As you note, this problem does not stop there. It is an issue for all of the per-minutes stats that require having the ball in your hand. That said, things like fg% and shooting efficiency aren’t effected that much by usage (at least within the NBA), and they still lack predictive power NCAA to NBA.

by vjl110 on Apr 27, 2011 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

And this is why I worry

that Williams is this draft’s Turner.

by monkeywolf on Apr 27, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

These are really great

Thank you so much for putting them up.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 27, 2011 10:23 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm pretty sure it won't...

I’ve got one on Biyombo tomorrow, and then I might need to redirect my energies towards things that result in a paycheck for awhile.

by vjl110 on Apr 27, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Old moneybags vjl110

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Heh, thanks for the posts, vjl110...

wish I could help you out on the money part, but, well, you know.

by timmuggs on Apr 27, 2011 5:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great Post

My main concern is that I don’t want to pass on Williams with the #2, but I don’t trust Kahn to be able (or willing) to make a trade. Any chance you could add Pace and usage statistics to your stat lines?

by zebano on Apr 27, 2011 10:25 AM CDT reply actions  

Most of Kahn's trades have been decent, so....

….assuming he makes the “right” pick, perhaps we have a chance?

by Boss10 on Apr 27, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

His trades are also for low-hanging fruit

Other teams bench players with potential which is fine as far as it goes, but the fact that they’re all SFs or PFs causes us at least a small headache and gives us little leverage when trying to move them.

by zebano on Apr 27, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed on leverage...

…however talent is talent (Williams), and need is need (most NBA teams not in Minnesota).

by Boss10 on Apr 27, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rec!

Seriously, this is outstanding stuff. I wouldn’t be surprised if these get picked up by other sites.

Any chance we could introduce some of these concepts to 600 First Ave.? Maybe if we used sock puppets?

by jianfu on Apr 27, 2011 10:37 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Bwahahahahahahahahaha

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 27, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't want to get into a "How's his smile?" conversation

but as a Arizona alum, I’ve pretty much watched every game Williams has played in. Initially I thought he would have trouble in the NBA because he’s a tweener, but he definitely has the intangibles that I don’t think Beas has.

He’s humble, saw himself as an equal with his teammates despite being the best player on the team and was ALWAYS the man at crunch time in key games. He had a big block against Washington in the Pac-10 regular season, then in the NCAAs, he had the game-winning block against Memphis and a game-winning no-look and-1 against Texas. Not to mention the first half against Duke where he went off for 25 and if not for that, Duke would’ve run AZ out of the building.

I like the David West comp if he can develop a mid-range shot, which I assume he will, but he also has the D-Wade take-it-to-the-basket draw contact, get fouled and make the shot thing working for him in spades. I don’t know how many times in 2 years I saw he get hacked, throw it up and have it go in. He knows how to handle contact and can finish with his left and right hand. And he will (eventually) get those calls in the NBA because of the way he goes to the basket with his strength.

Is he a good fit for the T-wolves? No, because he’s a 4. But he’s also one of those guys that you want on your team. If the Wolves pass on him at 2, they’re idiots because this draft is Irving, Williams and then the rest. Sad thing is, I can totally seeing the Wolves doing it because “they already have someone like Williams.”

by BDavige on Apr 27, 2011 10:44 AM CDT reply actions  

Thanks for the observations...

…did you see much of Kawhi Leonard? My thinking is, if we are considering Williams for the team (and likely dealing Beasley for fit), it terms of value, why not take a look at Leonard. I like the hustle guys (Vesely ilk).

by Boss10 on Apr 27, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I watched Leonard in person against UConn

in the tourney and honestly was not too impressed. I watched all their tourney games (I picked them in this tourney pool I was in) and he’s solid, but nothing spectacular. I don’t think he can really shoot right now. I like his defense and hustle, but that whole SDSU team was strong on defense, they just had trouble scoring. At pick 20, though, if he’s still there you’d have to consider him, although again does he get PT here?

by BDavige on Apr 27, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

And he will (eventually) get those calls in the NBA because of the way he goes to the basket with his strength.

Should we be concerned that he won’t be strong enough to out strength people in the NBA like he did in college.

Derrick Williams is goint to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 27, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have you even seen him play?

The guy is yoked and it’s not just about strength it’s his ability to handle contact. The guy has incredible body control. Judging for your hatred up and down here, he must have personally wronged you. You have an opinion (obviously), I just think he’s got more potential than Beas right now. Only because his head’s screwed on straight and he likes playing around the basket. If Derrick Williams comes into the NBA and starts chucking long 2s, then I’ll reconsider my feelings, but as of right now I like Williams better. Only trouble is, I don’t think he and KLove can really work together. Maybe.

by BDavige on Apr 27, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with you BDavige

He is a strong player, and probably the most aggressive prospect going to the basket since Blake Griffin. My doubts with regard to whether he can play with Love come strictly from the defensive end, I think he has the outside shot to play the 3, he is not a tremendous passer but most 3’s are not Pippen. Physically, is he not similar to Carmelo? Broad shoulders, not overly quick, but a real load once they get going to the basket. And please, please, don’t jump all over me, I am not comparing the offensive game of Derrick Williams to that of Melo Anthony, Williams has nowhere near as diverse a scorer. But defensively, if Melo is “capable” of playing the 3, I don’t see why Williams cannot.
I also agree with the part BDavige said earlier about his intangibles. I think we are all so averse to great smile, great handshake that we forget that the eye test does still matter. Williams is intense, very clutch, and very nearly led a very flawed Arizona team to the Final Four. The guy improved greatly from his first year of college to his second, and if that is the kind of work ethic he has, he will be a really good pro. He added a 3 point shot, a very good one, this year. I could see him continuing to develop his outside shot, and if he can defend even a little at the 3, he and Love would make for a tough matchup to handle for other teams. Love plays a lot on the perimeter when he isn’t hammering the boards, and Williams could spend a lot more time posting up smaller 3’s and working the baseline than he could on teams with a post up heavy 4.
And sure, this would probably make for one of the worst defensive forward combos in the league, at least early on, but this team is terrible. They need to take the best players available to them, and worry about how well they will match up in the playoffs when that is a realistic possibility.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 27, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Agree completely

At the beginning of the season AZ was not a tourney team and they came within a 3 at the buzzer of going to the Final Four. Admittedly college bball was weak this year, but AZ’s strong season was completely on Williams working on his 3 point shot in the off-season last year and just being an all-around leader.

His defense is definitely his weakness, so pairing him with Love will probably be terrible. On the other hand, there’s no doubt he will buy in, which seemed to be an issue with the team. During the playoffs, people have been talking about Rose and how humble he is and that he’s more of a quiet leader who works hard and makes others work because he is. This is Williams imo. His defense still scares me, though!

by BDavige on Apr 27, 2011 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

His defense scares me too

But so much of defense in the NBA is about effort, so long as you are quick enough to keep up. Look at the Celtics. Ray Allen and Paul Pierce were never seen as good defenders until Doc and KG got them to start committing. Williams works so hard that if he is laterally quick enough to keep up with the average small forward, he should be fine. Note, the average small forward—-Beasley could do this if he would bend his knees and try a little bit. As for power forward defense, he is not very long, so he would probably struggle a bit there. But I really like his tenacity, and while I do not project him as a superstar, I think he could play at an All-Star level. There are tweeners that have made it in the NBA. Take Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, etc, and add to them the willingness/tenacity to defend, and you’ve got a pretty nice player. I could see Williams developing into one of the tweeners who figures out a niche.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 27, 2011 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

All good points

and defense is about effort. I never understand why crap teams don’t draw that connection. I get that you play so many games in the NBA and there’s little time for coaching, etc., but man, is it so hard for a player to see who the successful teams are and what those successful teams have in common? It’s not scoring.

by BDavige on Apr 27, 2011 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Even gooder points

especially when the Wolves are a young team with not a ton of difference between the starters and the subs at any position other than PF (and maybe PG). It seems that giving all the non-Love players 20 minutes a game to play okay offense and crazed, frenetic playoff-type defense would have translated to a few more victories.

I’d like to see the Wolves inflict 48 minutes of Hell on to their opponents, instead of their fans.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

Hopefully the new coach or Rambis’ new “defense hawk” will be given 100% of the practice time in training camp. Honestly, Rambis, if he likes, can just take off the whole time. Even the whole season.

by BDavige on Apr 28, 2011 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gotta get BPA.

You can trade them later.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice to remember just how crazy good Beasley was in college...

It really is quite shocking that Beasley hasn’t been able to even come close to his production in the pro’s.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 10:49 AM CDT reply actions  

Not once we saw that he wasn’t even 6’8".

by Klobs on May 10, 2011 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Williams will be an improvement over Beasley

The difference is attitude. Williams has it, Beas does not. Otherwise they are very similar. I like the comment on WIlliams having some of Blake G’s aggressiveness, makes sense to me.

So what I would do with 2 is take Williams and trade Beasley, we’ll get more thanw e paid for him, and quite possibly get a serviceable 2 for him.

What struck me is the few seconds of Beasley we saw in the video that featured Love. As i said one other time, he looked like he was doing an imitation of Johnny Depp doing an imitation of Keith Richards in Pirates of the Caribbean. The guy’s mind is not where it should be for him to ever be a great NBA hoops player. So move on, don’t pass on Williams because he is the same as Beas — mentally he is superior, and that means a lot.

by timmuggs on Apr 27, 2011 10:55 AM CDT reply actions  

You won't be moving

Beasley if you take Williams. It would be Love or Randolph getting moved, because Williams is a 4.

by AQuintus on Apr 27, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ummm, I would be moving Beasley

and I’d be playing WIlliams at the 3.

I appreciate you telling me in advance what I would be doing, but I just checked with my inner GM, and he confirms that I’d be playing Williams at the 3. But I’m pretty sure that you would be doing what you say I would be doing.

by timmuggs on Apr 27, 2011 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

LOL!!!

my inner GM. priceless!!!

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Except

Williams isn’t a 3 at all. He’s a 4. It would be like drafting Love and playing him at the 3 because we have Jefferson.

And if my use of the word “you” really upsets you so much, you can go ahead and mentally change it to “The Wolves won’t be moving Beasley if they take William.”

by AQuintus on Apr 27, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

or would love really be a 5 who plays the 4 due to his size limitations?

Much like Williams is a 4 who will play the 3 because of size limitations. If love had five more inches of standing reach and a little more ups, no one would call him a PF. He would be a shooting center. It doesn’t matter what you think a player is. You are who you can defend. Period. End of Story.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 27, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Beasley is a 4 playing 3

and he hasn’t showed that he can guard either one.

by Breaking Ankles on Apr 27, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ryan Gomes

pending Pre-draft measurements.

by rickyp on Apr 27, 2011 11:36 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

These are very good.

Well done, vjl.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 27, 2011 11:48 AM CDT reply actions  

Williams is the reason why ...

getting the #2 Pick is the in-the-box most difficult position for us to be in…

We would have ZERO leverage to move that pick or Beasley.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Apr 27, 2011 11:54 AM CDT reply actions  

I would actually consider moving Beast now

I’ve no idea if that is allowed but shipping him off prior to the drawing of the lottery balls could save us some leverage. Even if we end up not in a position to take Williams is anyone truly convinced that B-easy will turn things around and become a more complete player? Personally I’d rather throw Webster’s mediocrity out there most nights.

by zebano on Apr 27, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pretty sure we can't make any trades...

until the end of the postseason…so the lottery will have already taken place

by LosAngelesTWolf on Apr 27, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow...

that doesn’t really seem fair to playoff teams…good to know though

by LosAngelesTWolf on Apr 27, 2011 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Along with perennial lottery

appearances, it’s an advantage that the Wolves can lord over the rest of the teams in the league.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 27, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

and yet they never really seem to

guess that’s another missed window of opportunity.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 27, 2011 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 29, 2011 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see no reason to rule out Williams playing the 3

You try it at least. If he can’t defend whatsoever, or gets shut down by quicker defensive SFs, then you abort it, but you have to try it on this team. Beasley is NOT the answer.

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 27, 2011 12:06 PM CDT reply actions  

To me if we are comparing to Beasley it all comes down to effort

Offensively it is not an issue with Beasley most of the time but can slack hard on d. They look like similar players to me with Beasley being more athletic and Williams just trying harder.

by Breaking Ankles on Apr 27, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Chad Ford in today's chat...
I really like their future. They have a lot of young talent. I think they really need a young big to complete the picture and wouldn’t be surprised if they shop either Andre Iguodala or Evan Turner to try to get him. But yes, the future is bright in Philly.

If the Wolves get the #2,3, or 4 pick who says no to this deal…

The #2,3, or 4 pick for Evan Turner.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 12:48 PM CDT reply actions  

I do.

Turner was really bad this year.

by AQuintus on Apr 27, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Turner came around towards the end of the year

He was a late bloomer at OSU.
I’d bet on him being a late bloomer in the NBA.
And, I think that scenario makes pretty good sense for both teams.

Given the slow development, the #2 seems a bit high, but #3 or #4 sounds right.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Apr 27, 2011 12:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

How about Wes and Beasley for Turner and Nocioni

Who says no

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I'd do that. That's not a terrible deal for Philly either.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 27, 2011 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Philly wouldn't do that

I doubt they have any interest at all in Beasley.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I do.

Beasley is the best player in that trade.

by AQuintus on Apr 27, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Doesn't really solve Philly's roster balance...

Instead of the Turner/Iguodala logjam, they’d have the ThadYoung/Beasley logjam with Beasley due for an extension

by LosAngelesTWolf on Apr 27, 2011 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not really.

October : 8.3, 5.3, 3.3
November: 7.5, 5.1, 1.9

March: 5.7, 2.1, 1.7
April: 10.7, 4.0, 2.8

by AQuintus on Apr 27, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would do that, but would definitely prefer Iggy.

Both seem sort of realistic from the perspective of both teams.

by vjl110 on Apr 27, 2011 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

While it seems impossible...

I’d actually love to see Turner, Love, and Irving together. Irving seems like a perfect compliment for Turner.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’d go see that team. Turner for AR?

OK, probably not.

I actually think, though, that if the Wolves win the lotto, they should then turn around and offer Rubio + smaller/shorter contracts to Atlanta (who is cash-strapped, always PG-hungry, and is a much better fit for Rubio’s talents than Minny), Atlanta would then send Josh Smith to a third team (in this case Philly), and the Wolves would receive an interesting wing in return. Something like that,

by jianfu on Apr 27, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

best trade scenario I've heard yet involving Rubio.

I’m still a fan of Rubio to the Suns to sit behind Nash for a year or two getting Lopez or Gortat back.

by zebano on Apr 27, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

can you imagine Rubio in Atlanta?

I mean just from a cultural standpoint. Granted, Atlanta is on the opposite side of the spectrum of Mephis…which Gasol hated for it’s lack of culture (I’m sure the lack of winning didn’t help either).

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 27, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're right, comparing Turner to Irving would be a compliment

Ha! Anyway, I do think you’re right, they’d fit together really well on paper. I would love to snatch Turner while his value is relatively low – I still believe in him pretty strongly. I also think being a little bit humbled this year and playing under Collins (demands attention to detail and defense) might be the best thing for his career in the long run.

Anyone remember when there was a bunch of talk about Joakim Noah getting shopped in his first couple years? I feel like Turner’s value is at that point. The team sees him as an asset and possible part of the future, but they wouldn’t be afraid to pull the trigger if they got a solid return.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 27, 2011 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Noah deals...

Common trade ideas on CH back in the day…

1) Noah and Deng for Al Jefferson

2) Noah for Craig Smith

Bulls probably would have said yes to Noah and Deng for Jefferson at one point. GAH!!!!

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably in Noah's rookie year...

but even then, I doubt they would have done that.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Deng was considered overpaid at that point, I believe

And it really sounded like they were willing to shop Noah at that point. The price did not seem to be high. Plus, Jefferson was seen as a borderline franchise player at that point. Man, how things have changed since then.

I really, really think that trading for Evan Turner would be a very savvy move at this point. If Turner was somehow magically stuck back into this draft, I’d take him over anyone not named Kyrie Irving.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 27, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I still have high hopes for Turner.

He has the skills. He just needs time.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 27, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Deng is still considered overpaid.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 27, 2011 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's true

But I think it was viewed much more negatively than it is now.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 27, 2011 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Winning cures all ills

Plus he was never grossly overpaid. He’s a very good player. His contract hurts his value, but doesn’t make it negative to a lot of teams.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 28, 2011 1:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Plus,

as required by the Geneva Convention of all players of Black African descent, we must question if his stated age is his actual age.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Turner is a wing, Noah is a big

Historically, it takes much longer for bigs to develop than wings. Wings are usually the easiest transition of any of the 3 spots. Not saying that Turner will never turn out to be a good player, but he is a ball-dominant player who has trouble getting his shot off over against players who are more athletic than him. If I am not mistaken, Noah’s development was slowed more by needing to get stronger and needing to mature a little bit, not a lack of athleticism. For what it’s worth, I saw Turner as the fourth best prospect in the draft last year, behind Wall Cousins and Favors, and it was for this very reason. Ball dominant shooting guards either need to be elite athletes (Wade) or elite shot creaters (Roy). Right now, Turner is neither. I have my doubts that he’ll ever be more than a solid pro.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 27, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

As did I.

I don’t see how he was demonstrably worse than Roy at Washington.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 27, 2011 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I meant that right now he is not

He has yet to prove that he can create his own shot consistently in the NBA. Roy proved right away that he could do so. I liked Turner in college, I just see him as a good, solid pro and not a future star. Or, I guess more accurately, not a future scoring star. I think he has the ability to do a lot of good things to fill a stat sheet. I would love to get Turner on this team if the deal was right, he would certainly be the Wolves best wing.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 28, 2011 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't understand why Philly would trade Iguodala.

That makes no sense to me. Why trade your best player if you’re on the right path?

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 27, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with not trading Iggy if I'm philly...

The issue for Philly is that their 3 best assets are essentially the same type of player. Holliday, Iggy, and Turner are ball dominant wings, who are great at passing and rebounding for their position, but not so good at shooting. They probably have to commit to two of those three players.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

...and Iggy

should be one of the 2, but NBA teams don’t always do what they should. Especially when a big price-tag is involved.

by vjl110 on Apr 27, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm thinking that Iggy is probably off the block, for now

Who knows what might happen when the team gets sick of Collins and starts losing.

Any team that’s interested in Turner should go after him right now. I don’t think his value will ever be lower, or the situation more ripe for the team to trade him. There’s probably no chance this happens, but I can dream, right?

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 27, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

He has a massive salary

that will prevent them from ever getting over the first round out hump.

by AQuintus on Apr 27, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Philly probably does not make that deal

unless they fall in love with Biyombo. I’d consider it, and I still like Turner, but I’m hoping for someone a bit more established, even at the cost of money (but I’m not Glen Taylor).

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

yuck

i just puked in my mouth…. Turner? he is a dud and always will be. would even hesitate to deal our pick at #20 for him….

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Really? So you would consider trading Wes Johnson for the 25th pick?

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably not

But I like Wes’ potential more than I do Turner’s. ET’s lack of athleticism and below average shot just turn me off I guess. At least Wes has NBA athleticism and as his confidence grows, he could be a very good shooter. And if a coach knew how to use him, that would help.

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have the exact opposite view.

I think that Turner was better than Johnson this year, is a year and a half younger, and has a broader base of skills. i would much prefer to have him.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Also in terms of room for improvement...

Turner improving as a shooter seems far more likely than Wes improving everywhere else.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not a huge fan

of either, but I do like Wes better. I guess it would make for a good poll….

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree Blakeley

I think Turner was overrated as the #2 pick last year, taken ahead of 2 superior prospects, but Wes Johnson is not one of them. Turner does not have elite athleticism like Wes, but Wes does not put his athletic talents to good use by being a spot up shooter. Turner can create off the dribble and pass, and is already a much more well rounded player than Wes Johnson.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 27, 2011 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Philly says no, per this RealGM thread

This, despite my best efforts to berate them.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 27, 2011 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh good, yeah, don't post the link.

Harumph!

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 27, 2011 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Another great post.

Williams seems like a good-but-not-great prospect, and a terrible fit on the Wolves. It seems pretty likely that he’ll end up on a different team—the others in the hunt for the #2 Pick (Washington/Cleveland/Toronto/Sacramento) could all use a good forward. Wolves need guards and a center.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 12:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Would you consider it ironic if...

Utah sent their #6 and #12 to Minn for the #2(if that’s what it is) and next yr’s Utah First?
And drafted Williams to go w/Jefferson?

by Tisbee on Apr 27, 2011 1:11 PM CDT reply actions  

Ironic would not be the first word that comes to mind with that deal...

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 27, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I can think of a better mot juste for that. Gack jumps to mind.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why not

Aren’t they playing AL as a 5 anyway??

When did I become a masochist?

by frankenhoops on Apr 27, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

what if the wolves end up with pick #3.

Who is at the top of their and your board? If Irving is #1 and assuming Williams is #2.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 27, 2011 2:29 PM CDT reply actions  

Pray someone falls in love with Walker or Biyombo

and want that pick.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

pretty scary situation, isn't it?

At that point I have a hard time believing any team is going to trade up for it. You just have to select someone…but who?

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 27, 2011 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

and is that the first circumstance where a draftee doesn't get 120% of the draft scale?

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 27, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

No

They’ll get the 120%. If those are still the rules.

I dunno. If I HAVE to pick someone…christ. What a mess. Maybe I take a flyer on Biyombo. Vesely is also a possibility, as is Motiejuanas. I hope like hell it doesn’t come to that.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is me

even if we land #2. Although it would be easier to trade Williams, I’m just as afraid that Kahn would draft him and try to make room for him.

The only “you make room for him” guy in this draft seems to be Irving. And we pretty much have that room open, already.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep. Concur

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

slim pickings indeed

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 27, 2011 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Kanter is a legit #3 in this draft

Though a flyer on BB or taking Burks outright is also ok in my book.

by zebano on Apr 27, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

BINGO...

That is the 24 million dollar question right there (and I have no idea who Kahn would say is the #3 prospect). Hell it wouldn’t surprise me if Irving wasn’t in his top 3 simply because of his woody for Rubio. But assuming it was Irving, then Williams, you could argue 10 guys at #3 when looking at it from a PROSPECT standpoint, and not a FIT standpoint. Choices:
Kanter, Motiejunas, Burks (IMO), Biyombo, K Walker, Vesely, T Jones, Knight, Valanciunas. Hell some GM could even make a case for Jimmer being the 3rd best prospect (argh!!!)

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd take Jimmer #3 overall.

Look at those numbers. Pretty sweet.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 27, 2011 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think some teams will fall in love with one or more of the 3 Centers

Biyombo, Kanter, or Jonas V. All are young, all are bigs, and at least one has a very advanced skill-set (Kanter). I wouldn’t be surprised if Philly came calling for one of these three guys. Keep in mind that two of their better players come off the bench – Louis Williams and Thad Young. Trading Iggy isn’t the end of the world for Philly with those guys along with Evan Turner and Jrue Holiday also getting better and better. And they’d still have Brand as a the steady vet.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 27, 2011 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's Kanter

and then they tell everybody in the organization, “STAY OFF THE PHONE IN CASE SOMEBODY WANTS ONE OF OUR MODERATELY-PRICED LUMBERING BIG MEN.”

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 27, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd take Biyombo

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 27, 2011 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

You really can't make these tiers yet

you really can’t. The predraft workouts & measurements are much too important.
Turner and Wall were neck and neck going in, and after the camp it wasn’t even close with the way Wall blew everyone away and Turner tested out so unimpressive.
It’s where you find out if guys have NBA bodies for their position or not, if they’ve got the length, the quickness and the hops, or if they’ve got tiny dinosaur arms.
We won’t know for sure, of course, but the combine will give us a better idea if Williams is a 4/combo forward, or a dreaded tweener without the length for the 4 or the quickness for the 3.

by rickyp on Apr 27, 2011 2:55 PM CDT reply actions  

I disagree

I think too much importance is put on the workouts and measurements.

And Turner and Wall were not neck and neck last year. Wall was the clear number 1 from the beginning. Nobody thought Washington was going to go any other direction.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know who measured well and worked out great..

Wes Johnson. So take that!!!..err…nevermind

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

As far as the invite-workouts

J-Flynn looked like a stud and Brook Lopez couldn’t guard Jim Peterson. So there’s a couple more for ya.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hate those workouts

Whether it’s one guy or 5 guys. Judging anyone on 2 hours of performance in a completely artificial setting is just asking for bad decision making. At least the measurements at the combine tell you something.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 27, 2011 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

While we're on this train of thought.

the measurements with DeAndre Jordan should have trumped what I’m guessing were some poor showings against more-polished players like Love, Lopez, and Dorsey in workouts. He was obviously taken too late (though, at least it was a draft deep with talent, with guys like Batum and Ibaka taking up slots Jordan could have gone in…except that #34 slot McHale dealt for cash.)

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's a funny comment from SnP before we traded Mayo for Love
I didn’t think it was possible, but they pulled it off. How did they do it? By following the advice of folks like Tom Powers, Dan Barrerio, Sid Hartman, etc: don’t overthink it was the motto in this draft and not only did they not overthink, they didn’t think at all.

They used the top pick they will likely ever have in this whole rebuilding effort on a souped up Randy Foye while value guards like CDR and Chalmers were readily available. Even if you grant them Mayo as being a solid pick, unless there is a guarantee from Pekovic, the Chalmers deal made absolutely no sense. Either don’t draft him or take a big like Jordan or a wing like CDR. That pick alone makes this one of the most baffling drafts I’ve seen. They went on and on about having assets for players that would add legit NBA talent to their roster and they’ll walk away with a single f-ing player. That’s it. 1 guy for next year. This is terrible. Meanwhile, Miami gets the draft the Wolves should have had: Beasley and Chalmers.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

SnP answers a question in the chat...
Laughing Stock: Was anyone hoping they’d take Deandre Jordan?

stopnpop: no, he’s a 7 foot gerald green

Sorry SnP, can’t win em all!

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I remember that night

There was some good debate about Jordan, CDR, and Chalmers, all of whom were available at 34. I had a completely-baseless hope that we came away from that draft with Ibaka, Batum or Jordan. That actually looks pretty good, but (particularly with Batum/Ibaka, who were just my reading DX & Ford) it was without seeing anything to really be informed. With Jordan, you literally just needed to watch his youtube clips and read his measurements. He was homeless man’s Dwight Howard which, it turns out, is a functional NBA center.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

How about Yi Jianlian

Posting up a chair.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 27, 2011 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Having him on your team

is like using a post for a chair.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 27, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Chairman Yi

Best inside joke NBA nickname I’ve read.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 27, 2011 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

didn't I hear

that there is going to be some real live 5 on 5 action before the draft? I have been pining for that forever. In fact they should give a bonus to every existing NBA player to come be on some pick up teams to inter-mix with the potential draftees. 5 on 5 for a few days in that scenario would really let you identify things…

by wolfen on Apr 27, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think I heard on Rusillo's podcast

that a team (Nyets, possibly?) was going to get a ton of guys in for that type of scrimmage. Not sure if agents will allow it, though. Maybe Prok’s team of mobsters can have it arranged.

by Andy G on Apr 27, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Err

Wes didn’t work out great. He had a rather poor workout here.
Jonny measured in at below-nba height.
The one on zero workouts are borderline useless.
The combine is fantastic for checking if they’ve got the body for the nba game. That doesn’t mean you overvalue it. You don’t draft on that, you start with their game. It’s where guys from smaller conferences/schools like Paul George show that they’ve got the length and athleticism (or don’t, as is often the case with small school guys). Williams is exactly the sort of guy where the measurements and athletic testing can raise flags about his position or help set them to rest.

by rickyp on Apr 27, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

New tagline for the site:

“Derrick Williams apologists since 4/27/11”

I just don’t get this one. At all.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Apr 27, 2011 11:07 PM CDT reply actions  

I think it might be a bit of a stretch

to say that “this site” is comprised of those who favor Derrick Williams.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 27, 2011 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree.

I don’t want to read anymore about his attitude and hustle and will.

He’s an undersized 4. The words “and then we should trade him” should follow his name in every post. And I’m already sick of the Beasley comparison.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Apr 27, 2011 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

So you're committed to the hasty generalization.

Noted.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 27, 2011 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

The other recent draft thread included a whole bunch of different stances about Williams,

and this one hardly stops at the Beasley thing.

We’re all over the map on the draft, barring the miraculous§ #1 overall lottery result.

§ “Miraculous: not explicable by natural or scientific laws and therefore considered to be the work of a divine agency.”

by feral on Apr 28, 2011 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not sure why liking his game makes one an apologist

Not sure what there is to apologize over. I like Williams’ game, I see him as someone who can be more versatile than strictly an undersized four. You disagree, that is fine. I thought that was what this site is for, a little healthy Wolves debate. And I agree with Cynical Jason that this site is not comprised of those who favor Derrick Williams. In fact it would appear the opposite judging by many responses in the thread. I am a fan of his game, and I think his intangibles are a bonus. The extreme majority of my liking of his game comes from his skills, including his very efficient scoring. In a normal draft, he wouldn’t be a number 2 overall pick. This is not such a draft; he is my 2nd favorite player right now in a weaker draft than usual. And if you don’t want to read anymore about his attitude hustle and will, then that is fine too. But I think so many people on here have become averse to ANY discussion of intangibles (with good reason, thanks Jonny and Wes) that they choose to completely ignore them, as if they are not a large factor in player success. We have a player in Beasley that shows this to be true; he could be a great player if he was willing to put in the hard work to evolve his game and improve. And no, don’t worry Googs, I was not just comparing Beasley to Williams.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 28, 2011 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Another thing

I am a HUGE fan of advanced stats. I think the Wolves have done a porous, at best, job of embracing what other teams and fans alike around the league have used to their advantage. But this isn’t baseball. Players are not defined strictly by spreadsheets. Garnett’s numbers with the Celtics do not come close to telling the story of his value to the team, for example. To go the complete opposite direction of the “handshake and smile” crowd and define players strictly by numbers without regarding at all their mental makeup is a mistake too. And I say this as a guy who is still chapped they didn’t take Boogie Cousins.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 28, 2011 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

How about those of us

who william Derrick Favors?

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is "williaming"

anything like “rogering?”

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 28, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Roger.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

If that's true

he was really underrating his will and heart.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Apr 28, 2011 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

However....

I have like most of you been watching the playoffs, some great games, by some great players and orginizations…and it left me also frustrated. Frustrated, by this history of this organization. Taylor, Mchale, Kahn…the past is the present. A complete and utter lack of developing a core group, combination of veteran go to leadership on the floor, with young talent showing promise. Whether in the front office, or the coaching staff choices…and player selection…quite honestly…for me to INVEST the time to drive from Noethern Minnesota my beloved Twin Cities, parking, dining out,. a couple of tix,…fuel…No thanks. Rciky Rubio..lets’ say he starts next year..has anyone seen his stats in Europa-Ball? And I am supposed to be excited? Excited of the prospect of a two year development project..that considering the lack of talent, coaching, and history of who we select and develop is honestly getting into the realm of consistently pathetic. And am I hearing correctly…we have no First Round pick next year??? Free Agents….who in the right mind, if you really have talent, are reperesented by a great agent, and see what we have done, are doing is going to come here? No ONE. Not unless several imperatives happen…and happen soon. Such as Kahn being replaced by someone who understands and has excelled or at least impresses people with what they have done in a management role. Bring a coach that players KNOW…that they can trust that their system is a proven success. And boys and girls….we are years..at least 3 if not closer to 5 that we can actaully have a modicum of hope we will be watching post season play.

by ronnoinduluth on Apr 28, 2011 12:47 PM CDT reply actions  

Reminds me of Kobe...

and Kobe is the G.O.A.T in my book…he’ll solidify his position with a 6th title. D. Williams, like Kobe, has taken mediocre or somewhat untalented teams deep into the postseason. I shudder to think what he’d look like at age 27.

Ailuridae - Why can't we be friends? Why can't we be friends?

by DarkoMilicic on Apr 28, 2011 12:50 PM CDT reply actions  

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