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Projecting Bismack Biyombo

Bismack Biyombo

 C

6'9" (7'7" wingspan), 240lbs

18 years old (this analysis assumes this is true)

 

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via www.guinguinbali.com


Bismack Biyombo moved from 1st round curiousity to upper-echelon prospect in one night by putting on a show against the best incoming freshman in the US.  Biyombo recorded the Nike Hoop Summit's first ever tripple-double with 12 points, 11 rebounds, and 10 blocks.  He also impressed scouts in attendence with his high energy defense and absurd athleticism, both in the game and in the training-camp leading up to it.  If you are yet to watch the highlights of this performance, you are missing out.

One game however, does not a prospect make.  We need to look deeper into his success accross the pond, and put that together with his obvious physical tools to identify what level of prospect we are looking at.  Bismack doesn't have enough of a track-record to make many certain pronouncements about his future, but we can at least narrow the range of what he "is" and "isn't".

 

NBA Projection:

I am treating Bismack as a defense-oriented center in this analysis.  Some would question labeling a guy who is under 6'8" barefoot an NBA center, but Bismack has some freakish qualities that allow it.  Bismack's 7'7" wingspan gives him the biggest arm-height differential in DraftExpress's database.  He has a standing reach of 9'3", which places his effective height in the same range as Andrew Bogut and Dwight Howard.  Remember, you neither block nor rebound with your head.  You also rarely do either from the ground.  This is where Biyombo's freakish leaping ability comes into play.  If Ben Wallace can be an all-star defensive center at more than an inch shorter with a 7'2" wingspan, I think I can safely slot Bismack Biyombo into that position.

Biyombo has played 238 minutes over 14 games in the ACB.  Not a great sample, but more information than can be gleaned from his NHS display of awesomeness.  Let's see what his numbers in the second best league in the world say about his potential.

The real highlight here is Biyombo's block rate.  Bismack is putting up 5.4 blocks/40min in the ACB.  To put that in perspective, the next best rate in the ACB this year is 3.4 and the 4th best is 2.4.  Bismack's closest competitor is only getting 62% of his blocks and after Fran Vasquez at 3rd, nobody else in the ACB is getting close to half as many blocks as Biyombo.  Bismack could only go back on defense half of the time and still be a top 3 shot-blocker.  This isn't an especially weak year either.  Look at the ACB block leaders of the past three years:  09/10 2.9, 08/09 2.9, 07/08 3.4.  Biyombo has been really good at blocking shots. 

We shouldn't be suprised if Biyombo's blocking prowess carries-over to the NBA either.  Blocks translate from the NCAA to NBA better than any other statistic (r^2=0.93 [3]).  The best shot-blocker in college, will, in all likelihood, be the best shot-blocker (of his cohort) in the NBA.  I don't know the R^2 for ACB to NBA, but I would be surprised if it is much smaller. 

Block rates in the NBA and ACB are pretty similar.  The top rate is ussually somwhere between 3-4 blocks per 40 minutes.  Dikembe Mutombo recorded 4.9 blocks/40min in his best season, and averaged 3.6 for his career.  5.4 blocks per 40min in the ACB is really really good.  Small sample size is a concern, but I feel comfortable projecting Biyombo as one of the best shot-blockers in the NBA (assuming he can stay on the court). 

Biyombo is also the fourth best rebounder in the ACB at 11.9 per 40 (projected 12.6 per 36 in NBA via Hollinger's euro translation [4]).  Even more impressively, he has the 2nd best free throw/shot attempt rate in the ACB at 0.82.  If only he could shoot those free throws at better than 55.3%...  Biyombo fairs really well in the composite metrics as well.  He was top 20 in the ACB for both WS/40 and PER.  Top 20 in the second best league in the world at 18 is no meager accomplishment.  This is what we know about Bismack Biyombo.  How do these numbers compare to similar players, and how have they faired?

The initial skepticism with Biyombo is ..."yeah, we've seen this before and it didn't pan out."  We remember the over-hyped, big, quick, leaping center that got picked early and never left the bench.  But is this reaction fair to Bismack? 

It is tempting to lump Bismack with past underwhelming mysteries from the dark continent, but we need to update this bias with the fact that we have some real hard evidence of Bismack's ability, as well as some of these other players' inablity.  We don't need to rely purely on tall-tales and speculation in the internet age.  Going down the list, we can put Biyombo above many of these guys pretty quickly.  Some like Cheik Samb were complete unknowns on draft day, others like the under-sized Stephane Lasme have clear physical defficiencies, and still others like Solomon Alabi, Hamady N'Diaye, Kene Obi and John Reik are less-productive relatively known quanitities.  There is a reason these guys didn't go in the 1st round.

So what about the guys that did go in the 1st round?  How does Biyombo compare to the more highly-touted great African hypes?  Namely, the most recent incarnations of this trope Johan Petro (#24), Saer Sene (#7), Hasheem Thabeet (#2) and (non-African) Larry Sanders (#16). 

Johan Petro, was never hyped to be what Bismack is.  Petro was a seven footer that could kind of run and had a soft touch around the basket.  More in keeping with our annual euro-big-busts than "the next Mutombo".  He was quick "for his size" but not freakish.  He played soft, failed to collect rebounds and blocks due to timing and awareness issues, and preffered the Darko hook to attacking the rim.  We had a pretty long record on Petro in the French leauges and while he didn't look terrible, he never looked like what we have seen from Bismack. 

The gushing over Sene's physical profile back in 2006 was much more akin to the Bismack hype.  Huge, quick, hard-worker, freakish wingspan, potenial, potential, potential...  Hell, he even dominated the 2006 Nike Hoop Summit (though not to the same degree as Biyombo).  However, at the same stage Bismack is putting that potential to use in Spain, Sene was struggling in the inferior Belgian leagues.  In fact, Bismack is already putting up much better numbers in Spain than the 24 year old Sene is in the French leagues.  Sene is a good comp, but Biyombo has a stronger track-record and looks to be the better prospect.   

Thabeet and Sanders look to be the two comps on my list that merit a closer examination.  Thabeet isn't the best Biyombo comp in terms of physical profile or style.  However, Bismack and Thabeet are very similar in terms of the production they bring to a team.   Larry Sanders is a much better physcial comp to Biyombo.  He has a 9'4" reach that is mostly arms and good athleticism, but is about 20lbs lighter than Bismack.  

                                reb/40    blks/40     Stls/40   TO/pos    Asts/pos    PF/40     pnts/40     TS%      FTA/FA             

Biyombo (ACB)     11.9          5.4             0.8           0.25           0.04          4.7               15             56          0.82

Thabeet (NCAA)   10.4          6.2             0.3           0.25           0.06             4.3            10.1          55           0.95 

Sanders (NCAA)    12.4        7.2             0.8           0.16           0.03             6.8           4.9             50           0.54

                Thabeet and Sanders as a freshman.  Neither Thabeet nor Sanders reached those block numbers again.  Thabeet stayed above 5/40min the next 2 years, while Sanders dropped to around 4.

Unfortunately, I don't know exactly how NCAA and Euro stats translate, so take most of the following comparison with a grain of salt.  The ACB is definitely the more difficult league.  It looks like fouls, blocks, and rebounds come quite a bit easier in the NCAA, but I would love to know exactly how much easier.  At the very least, we can say that these three have a similar patterning to their production.  They all have really high block rates, although neither Thabeet nor Sanders were as dominant as Biyombo relative to their league-mates.  Biyombo is also the best rebounder, assuming that rebounds come easier in the NCAA.  Biyombo and Thabeet turn the ball over at a Milicician rate while Sanders was mearly Tolliveresque.  Thabeet and Biyombo managed to get fouled constantly while returning the favor.  Sanders gave out trips to the charity stripe like few others, but didn't keep nearly as many for himself.

Biyombo does look like the best prospect of the three, but I can't say by how much without a better understanding of how ACB/NCAA stats compare.  However, these guys still offer a useful comparison.  Thabeet in particular.  I say this because I think that Thabeet's NBA career represents Biyombo's most likely route to failure.  Thabeet rebounded OK (Biyombo should be better here) and was an excellent shot-blocker as soon as he stepped on the court in the NBA.  Unfortunately, Thabeet also had ridiculously high foul and turn-over rates (7.3/40min, and 0.33/poss), and struggled hard with the nuances of the game.  These problems were bad enough to send him to the D-league even though he was the #2 pick and a dominant shot-blocker.  He was just too much of a liability out on the floor.  We had similar issues with Pek last season.  Pek is a very different player than Biyombo, but Pek's troubles with fouls and turnovers really neutralized his positive attributes.  Expect the same from Biyombo early in his career.  If Biyombo fails, this is how it will happen.  There are lots of guys that can block shots and rebound (see Mickel Gladness' 06/07 8.6blks 10.4rbs/40min NCAA season).  They don't make it in the NBA because they can't do anything else right.  

So what about the more optimistic comps people have proposed?  What about recent success story and fellow Congolesse big, Serge Ibaka.  Both Ibaka and Biyombo are muscular, long-armed, relatively short-bodied bigs.  While Biyombo looks to be a little bigger (about 20 lbs) and has slightly more freakish arms, they are pretty similar physically.  Both players are lauded for their quickness, hustle and work-ethic.  Another benefit of the Ibaka comp is that both played in the ACB as teens, finally allowing us a reliable statistical comparison. 

                                reb/40    blks/40     Stls/40   TO/pos    Asts/pos    PF/40     pnts/40     TS%      FTA/FA             

Biyombo (ACB)    11.9          5.4             0.8           0.25           0.04          4.7               15             56          0.82

Ibaka (ACB)           11.2          2.5             0.7           0.14           0.03             4.0            17.7          58           0.25

During Ibaka's season with Ricoh Manresa, he approached Biyombo's rebound rate (11.2 vs. 11.9), but was far behind Bismack's block (2.6 vs. 5.4) and free-throw rates (.25 vs. .82).  They were similarly productive on offense, and deemed very"raw" technically by scouts.  Ibaka's case is also interesting because his stats transfered pretty consistently from the ACB to the NBA. 

                                reb/40    blks/40     Stls/40   TO/pos    Asts/pos    PF/40     pnts/40     TS%      FTA/FA             

Ibaka (ACB)           11.2          2.5             0.7           0.14           0.03             4.0            17.7          58           0.25

Ibaka (NBA)           12             2.9             0.8           0.2             0.03              5.9            13.8          56           0.25

 

It seems a bit lazy to pick a recent Congolesse big as the best comp for Bismack.  However, Ibaka really does look like a great fit, both in terms of physical profile and statistical production.  In fact, if Biyombo's block rate isn't just small sample size theatre, Ibaka may undersell Biyombo as a prospect (at least defensively).

 Can you really project someone as similar to the best per-minute shot-blocker in the NBA, but with considerably better shot-blocking?  Serge Ibaka led the NBA in blocks last year with 3.6/40min.  That is only 2/3rd of the blocks Biyombo is collecting in the ACB.  If I could throw out Biyombo's small sample size problem, I would be willing to bet real money he leads the league in blocks per minute next year.  Unfortunately, the small sample size problem might be a very real problem.  

I've also heard people make the much more optimistic comparison to Dwight Howard.  Seeing Biyombo's physical profile, especially after watching him destroy the rim in that NHS game, Dwight Howard does come to mind.  He is a bit shorter than Howard, but thanks to Biyombo's crazy arms, Howard only has a .5" longer standing reach.  Physically, Biyombo really does seem to be cut from a similar cloth as the best center in the league.  Scouts also claim that Biyombo has the intelligence, work-ethic, and motor that a player needs to translate that frame into a successful career.  So then why was Howard a lock at #1 and Biyombo isn't?  It isn't like we had a better statistical track record on Howard.  14 games in the ACB is worth more to me than a lifetime of devouring high-school players, and while Biyombo's ACB dominance was very... "task-specific", combined with his NHS performance it speaks highly of his potential.  The biggest difference between Biyombo and Howard circa 2004 comes from their respective ball-skills.  Howard was viewed by scouts as a quality ball-handler with nice footwork in the post and a knack for passing out of trouble.  None of these fit the current profile on Biyombo.  In fact Biyombo receives pretty much the opposite comments from scouts. 

via NBADraft.net.

"Offensive game is as raw as it gets and a long ways from being effective at the NBA level ... Basic fundamentals and technique are way behind, and may never catch up ... Footwork and offensive skills are basically non-existent...  His jumpshot is more of a set shot and doesn't have a clean release" [2]

 These are the things that make Howard great in the NBA and it will take a pretty steep developmental trajectory for Biyombo to ever reach that level.  Howard is far too optimistic of a comp to seriously consider at this point. 

 

Final player-comparison verdict:

Thabeet/Sanders  <-------->  a bigger stronger Serge Ibaka

 

Fit:

Of the top prospects, Biyombo, assuming he can develop basic NBA skills, is the best fit for the Wolves.  Bismack is pretty raw, and shouldn't be starting his first year in the league.  However, the Wolves currently receive the worst production from the center position in the NBA (Millicic WP48=-0.096 and Pekovic Wp48=-0.094, [5]).  Darko and Pek cannot see significant minutes if we hope to crawl out of the cellar.  Bismack might not set the world on fire next year, but he may be an upgrade over our current line-up.  Giving Biyombo time will be especially tolerable given that he projects as the perfect front-court compliment to Kevin Love

Defensively Biyombo does everything that Love doesn't.  He gets out on the perimiter, has the reach to combat any center in the league, collects blocks as a help defender, and is praised as a vocal leader on the defensive end.  Offensively, Biyombo will be an oop target, a foul magnet, and will hang-out near the basket throwing down dunks and collecting boards.

Off the court Biyombo seems to be a high-character guy and has a nice smile.  Apparently Bismack even lists Kevins Garnett and Love as his favorite NBA players.

 

Conclusion:

With Biyombo's physical tools and demonstrated competence in the key areas he will be asked to perform (defense, rebounding, and efficiency near the basket --via getting to the line) he projects as a good role-player, with potential to be a uniquely dominant defensive presence.  I think people often underestimate how difficult it is for a young-adult to acquire the basic skills necessary to participate at the NBA level.  Many players in the past have failed to do so, even those widely regarded as "hard-workers".  If Biyombo can pick-up these skills he will immediately be a "good" NBA player, whether he can become great will depend on how legitimate claims about his intelligence, basketball-sense, and work-ethic prove to be.

 

References:

1.  Draft Express  (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bismack-Biyombo-5902/)

2.  NBAdraft.net  (http://www.nbadraft.net/players/bismack-biyombo)

3.  Basketball-Statistics (http://basketball-statistics.com/howdoncaastatisticstranslatetothenba.html)

4.  Hollinger: Rating the European Prospects (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=EuropeanProspects-090623&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fdraft2009%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist%3dhollinger_john%26page%3dEuropeanProspects-090623)

5.  Wages of Wins (http://www.wagesofwins.com/AllTeamsPlayersRank2010-11.html)

Comment 338 comments  |  24 recs  | 

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I just rec'd this post...

And I haven’t even read it yet. YAY FOR VJL

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 9:00 AM CDT reply actions  

"One game however, does not a prospect make."

Everyone see this? Same goes for Enes Kanter!!!

by RB10 on Apr 28, 2011 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

The work ppl do on this site breaking down the top draft prospects makes being in the lotto every year kinda fun.
Laker fan doesn’t know what she’s missing.

by fanslaststand on Apr 28, 2011 9:22 AM CDT reply actions  

Rec X 1 Million

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Apr 28, 2011 9:24 AM CDT reply actions  

Not allowed

Cheater!

%

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 28, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

For such insubordination

I am flagging your post one million times!

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is an awesome write-up

Sorry I haven’t been able to compliment your last 2

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Apr 28, 2011 9:24 AM CDT reply actions  

same here...

…maybe it’s because I knew less about Biyombo, but I thought this one was particularly excellent

by Django Z on Apr 28, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good write up

really hard to say what he winds up being; one of the differences between him and Ibaka is turnovers. One of my concerns with Biyombo is that he simply won’t be able to hang onto the ball. I KNOW he’s going to have major foul troubles in first year or two, to the point that I really don’t think he’ll be able to stay on the floor much early.

I have suggested comps including Ty Thomas or Joel Anthony. I think perhaps the absolute best case for him is that he becomes Nene. That would absolutely make him worth the 3rd-4th pick. Nene is a very, very good player. I doubt he gets there, but that’s the dream for him. Ibaka is a possibility as well, and obviously that would be great as well.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 9:28 AM CDT reply actions  

with the right coaches I think he can get there

I almost hope he goes to the right team that can team him up because I really want to go to games and shout “BISMACK BIYOMBOOOOO!”

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 28, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

As a Pistons fan who is dying to see Biyombo available at 7th overall and JoD not screw it up by drafting some euro-trash big like Donuts Montezuma (Donatas Montiejunas)...

This is a fantastic write-up and I hope that the Pistson are in your group of teams that you’d want Bismack to go to.

Greg Monroe showed by the end of the year just how good he could ultimately be and I think Biyombo would be the absolute perfect complement to Monroe’s game.

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 28, 2011 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ya thats a nice couple!

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 28, 2011 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah, he'd be really interesting alongside Monroe.

Care to deal up? Austin Daye’s not getting any less spindly. ;-)

by feral on Apr 30, 2011 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think Ty Thomas is a good one.

He is closer to Biyombo in terms of rebounding prowess than some of the other guys, and in the same range as everyone else in terms of blocking.
I chose some of the other comps over Ty mainly because he is considerably smaller than Biyombo (about 25lbs and 3" standing reach). Ty is in the “could play center” category, but his best position will probably always be PF.
I didn’t look into the Joel Anthony comp.

I think my post reads more confident about Biyombo than I actually am. There is some real reason to be excited, but it is also really easy to imagine him toiling in the D-leagues the rest of his career. I wish I could see what he looks like with one more full-year in the ACB, but it looks like we won’t have that option. Unfortunately, Biyombo is a case where we need to put quite a bit of faith in our organization’s scouting and player assessment. They will be the ones to determine just how well the guy understands basketball.

by vjl110 on Apr 28, 2011 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of Ty Thomas...

What would be better for the Wolves long-term:

Drafting Biyombo and hoping he turns into a high character Ty Thomas.

or

Drafting Alec Burks and just trading for Ty Thomas (who seems available via salary dump).

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Chicken or the Egg...

Personally I feel like the “steady the ship” argument from Kahn/Taylor/Rambis is BS.

What we need to steady the ship is more good players, which will allow us to win more and appear as if we’re steadying the proverbial ship.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

If we could go from...

Love – Darko – Pek, as our big rotation to Love – Ty Thomas – Adolph, I would be happy as a clam.

by vjl110 on Apr 28, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't like the Ty Thomas comp

As you said, he doesn’t have the size to play C. Biyombo is bigger and stronger, plus won’t frustrate you trying to knock down jump shots (he seems to know his strengths/weaknesses).

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 28, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've got more reasons

Wait, no I don’t, just more details to the ones Rascal Flatts expertly provided:
Weight: 23 lbs heavier (at a year younger)
Wingspan: 3 inches longer (Tyrus has freak arms too, but Biyombo is all time)
Height in shoes: 1 in taller

These three factors combine to make Biyombo a viable center candidate and Thomas not one. That’s worth a lot. IMO, offensively-challenged PF is much harder to work around because so many teams get ~20 ppg from their starting PF, which means you’ll be forced to have to make up that missing production from your other positions night in, night out.

Then there’s:
Tyrus: numbskull headcase; Biyombo: ideal demeanor
Biyombo: just barely competent enough of a jump shooter to take way more than he should; Biyombo: sucks and knows it

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 29, 2011 7:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Tyrus: just barely competent enough of a jump shooter to take way more than he should; Biyombo: sucks and knows it

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 29, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah I saw that too

but it really was an excellent read! I appreciate the time and effort you must be putting into these posts.
I think when dealing with foreign players in general, it’s always super difficult to predict what their future may hold. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I kind of think of foreign prospects as boom or bust. There is no middle ground.

They either turn out to be starters and stars or they don’t at all. It’s been very rare to see them become role players.

The ones that do almost always are veteran players-jorge garbajosa,Andrés Nocioni, Jose Calderon,Rudy Fernández,even Carlos Delfino could be seen as old at 22. Even that’s a stretch because a lot of the foreign players come from the second most competitive basketball league in Spain and they were playing for years against NBA caliber talent.
   
    It’s so hard because it’s there’s a limited number of foreign players the league’s seen and it’s easy to group some of them together. Especially hard with the big men where you have Pau Gasol, DIrk, Yao, Andrew Bogut and then Yi, Thabeet, Olowokandi, Nikoloz Tskitishvili, and a bunch of others.

It’s got to be tough for a GM too when you could be out of a job if you make the mistake of picking a bust and all the blame goes to you. I do think the best case would be to give him 1 more year after this to see him refine his skills a bit and mature. Usually that’s turned out to be a good strategy than throwing him to the wolves against NBA talent that’s 10 times better than anything the kid’s experienced against.

"You need to get real!"

by MJ5 on Apr 30, 2011 4:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree it must be tough evaluate these players

But I’m not sure I agree on the boom or bust statement. What is Bargnani in TOR? How about Zaza in ATL? Barbosa when he was in PHO?

I would expect there is the same range of talent (Dirk down through Skita).

One interesting aspect is the differences in what a player in Europe thinks is important, skillful, or relevant for his position. For example, I believe bigs are encouraged to improve their jump shooting whereas in the U.S. this is probably less prized than defense and rebounding. When Darko uses a soft hook that drives his U.S. coaches and fans nuts, he is trying to use a shot he views as more skillful than a dunk. (The fact that it is more likely to avoid contact and/or a trip to the free throw line is probably a side-benefit in his mind.)

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 30, 2011 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

European players get more training in the post than U.S. bigs.

If you want traditional back-to-the-basket players, you draft them overseas more often than you find them here. Al Jefferson’s scarce on the ground.

by feral on May 2, 2011 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I could see that. Nene at the beginning of his career was even one of those guys who just earned 30 mpg off his defense and hustle, as he was quite a liability offensively. Nene is also a weird player in that about 3 years ago he went from “offensive liability” to one of the most efficient scorers in the game.

by jianfu on Apr 28, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nene is also good for another comp

He’s a guy who came completely out of nowhere, shot up draft boards in the last month or two, got picked 7th overall, and totally panned out.

If nothing else, there is at least one precedent.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 29, 2011 7:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry Eric

Those are awful comps. He’s already 25-30+ pounds heavier than Thomas and will probably block more shots in a year than Nene has in his career. Joel Anthony was 25 when he came into the league and is an awful awful rebounder with an anemic foul drawing rate. Aside from being 6’9, possessing long arms and being good defenders, I see little comparison there.

That said, if he can give you rebounding/shot-blocking on par with Thomas without Thomas’ inexplicable inability to actually finish at the rim (the guy is a career 45% shooter, wtf), he’s easily worth a top 5 pick in this draft. I think it’s safe to say that he’s going to be more efficient than Thomas, if less versatile (but who cares what you can do offensively when you shoot 45%..) I imagine he’s going to dunk the ball when he gets the chance and not biff layups and hang out at the FT line shooting jumpers like Thomas does.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think they might be bad comps the other way

look, even if the shape of his career is different, if he winds up as good as Thomas that is a GREAT result for him. Nene even more so. The likelihood is that he’s never that good.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 29, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

They might be bad comps for the opposite reason

which is that its likely he’s never near as good as either Thomas or Nene.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 29, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just don't get your point

Regardless of the probability that he reaches his potential, he doesn’t play like any of those guys. The only one who comps remotely to his rebounding/shot-blocking is Thomas, and he’s functionally retarded on the offensive end of the floor. Biyombo has the bulk to actually stick near the hoop and seems to 1) know how to finish and 2) know that he shouldn’t be taking jumpers. If he’s anywhere near Thomas on the defensive side of the floor while not taking jumpers and dunking easy shots he’s going to be a nice player.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Project ... == Must Read

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 9:28 AM CDT reply actions  

PS: I'm close to sold on him at #2 or below

A bigger stronger Serge Ibaka on the Wolves next to Love would be freaking awesome.

If the Wolves draft him, I’d hope they move one or more bigs to help in other areas. For example, could you trade Beasley + stuff (Flynn, Pek, #20, etc.) and bring back an NBA-quality 2? Slide Webster & Wes into the SF spot, get Rubio over here, and the team starts looking more interesting.

Rubio/Ridnour
?/?
Johnson/Webster (in some order)
Love/AR/Tolliver
Ibaka/AR/Tolliver

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 9:41 AM CDT reply actions  

Doh - Meant to put "Biyombo/AR/Tollier" at C

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm still pretty terrified that a 17 win team is going to draft for need...

Drafting for need makes sense if players are in the same tier (Evan Turner over Cousins), but it makes zero sense if they are in different tiers (Wes over Cousins).

The idea of Biyombo makes sense next to Kevin Love. Yet, if Derrick Williams is considered to be in a tier above Biyombo, then we have to draft Derrick Williams or trade down. Bad teams can’t draft down because of fit.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

if Derrick Williams is considered to be in a tier above Biyombo

I realize I may be in the minority here, but I don’t know how Williams becomes his own tier stricly because he’s the 2nd best American prospect. Personally, I would rather have Ben Wallace for the next 10 years than David West, and Williams’ translateable statistics aren’t even as good as West’s were. Williams is a liability on defense, Bismack on Offense. Only thing is, the defensive statistics are much more translateable.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree, I'm just having a hard time

reconciling some of the Williams/Biyombo comps with the assumed draft tiers.

For example, if Williams is Beasley 2.0 (better D but not as dominant in college as Beasley), and Biyombo is a bigger, stronger Ibaka, which guy is more valuable in general?

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure that's a totally fair comparison...

Sure I would prefer Ben Wallace or Big Ibaka next to Love over David West with 3 point range, but as of now it appears that it will be significantly easier for Williams to become David West then for Biyombo to become Wallace/Ibaka. This is the main reason why at this point in time, Williams is considered a better prospect than Ibaka.

Also Williams as a liability on defense doesn’t come anywhere close to how big of a liability Biyombo might be on offense.

I’m not opposed to drafting Biyombo entirely, and we’ll have to see how he looks after a couple months of coaching him up for the NBA. I can be swayed over the next couple of months, but I just don’t think the Wolves are in any position to pass up the better value in Derrick Williams.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Williams measurements will be important to his defensive upside

But, a big heart and hustle doth not make a tweener a non-tweener

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

"I’m not opposed to drafting Biyombo entirely"

I doubt they’ll allow us to partially draft him, but I wouldn’t put it past Kahn to try.

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 28, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Can we just draft his wingspan

And put it on Kevin Love?

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

This version of Kevin Love

would average 25 rebounds per game

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 28, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

He'd also average

15 stepped-on-his-own-hands episodes per game.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 28, 2011 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Then we could trade for Roy

And draft someones knees with the rest of the pick

by Waucckhewww on Apr 28, 2011 4:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Trading for a 2

My dream scenario…
Beasley/Pek/Flynn
for
Turner/Nocioni

Philly balances out their skill sets, gets a big body to bang.
We get a 2.
This scenario works best if we land Irving and need less of a shooter at the 2.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Apr 28, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

No way Philly does that deal

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Because...

Turner proved such a good fit this year?

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Apr 28, 2011 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see how that a No Way

Beasley and Turner were both #2 picks. Beasley was taken #2 in a good draft and looks like a disappointment in comparison. Turner was taken #2 in a bad draft and hasn’t been out-shined by players drafted after him. Not to mention that Beasley is 3 months younger and beats Turner is just about any statistical measurable.

by Jerwol on Apr 28, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's a "no way"

because like many Wolves fans, Eric in Madison really underrates Beasley.

by AQuintus on Apr 28, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

What's there to rate?

Shoot a lot, score a lot, play no defense?

Turner at least provides some semblance of defense.

by zebano on Apr 28, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

No

It’s a no way because the issue isn’t Turner vs. Beasley. It’s 1 year of Beasley at $6 million, then having to pay him significant money to keep him, vs. 3 more years of Turner under team control, maxing out at $6.5 million. There’s a huge gulf in the value of those 2 situations.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

But also

Turner is already better than Beasley.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

that too

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Phili already has a better version of Beasley in Thad Young.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Apr 28, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

that too

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 5:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

that too

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 28, 2011 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tru Dat

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_a_dream_mean_if_you_see_dog_piles_of_dog_poop

by Dogpile on Apr 29, 2011 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why Turner?

He was terrible this year.

If you’re going to trade for a Philly wing, Iguodala makes way more sense, would probably be easier to get, and wouldn’t require us taking back Nocioni.

by AQuintus on Apr 28, 2011 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

I doubt any of that is true

I don’t think they are trading Iggy. As much as we pretend, teams generally like to keep their best player. Especially when they just made the playoffs for the first time in a while.

While Turner isn’t ideal, he was better than Wes Johnson. I doubt they trade him, either, but it could happen. I’d take him.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Better than Wes Johnson

isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement.

And the way I see it is that Philly is in the same situation that Minnesota was in during the Garnett era, good enough to make the playoffs and get swept, but not good enough to get past that due to contracts.

Iguodala isn’t good enough to carry a team, but he’s getting paid like he can. I wouldn’t be surprised if they evaluated their team and decided that moving Iggy for cap room and prospects (especially ones that can shoot) and giving Turner the reins wouldn’t hurt their team too bad.

For whatever it’s worth, there are quite a few Sixers fans at RealGM that would do Iggy for Johnson and Peks.

by AQuintus on Apr 28, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also

he may be better than Johnson, but he wasn’t better than Beasley – the guy you’re trading for him.

by AQuintus on Apr 28, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Turner went from being way overrated in the draft to way underrated because of expectations.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I still really like Turner

His value will never be lower, I think he should be a primary trade target if Philly is willing to listen. I think he’ll be a darn good jack-of-all-trades shooting guard for a long while.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 28, 2011 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is a good point about his value

And I see Turner in that same mold. I don’t see him as a go-to, alpha scorer type in the Brandon Roy mold that many did, but rather as a guy who could be a real nice stat filler that gets you 16 ppg. If you’re going to try to trade for him, now would be the time.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 28, 2011 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Beasley blows

Turner in a heartbeat if Philly would do that.

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 29, 2011 5:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

FYI, Philly made the playoffs in 2008-09, and 07-08.

It’s not like a long playoff drought was ended this year. But you’re right about them being unlikely to trade their best player – it’s fairly rare for that to happen.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on May 1, 2011 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Biggest question re: Biyombo

Is there any chance that our FO will be able to accurately rate him as a prospect. For example, does their apparently distaste for stats cause them to miss a lot of reasons shown above that he is a better prospect than guys like Sene? Do they get hung up on the ’doesn’t look the part’ angle since he is not a 7 footer? Or conversely, do they ignore his penchant for turnovers, inability to shoot free throws, etc. because he is ‘long and athletic’?

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 9:45 AM CDT reply actions  

This may be a situation

where their penchant for the “eye test” actually corroborates the advanced stat info. For him to waltz into the ACB league with minimal prior experience and put up numbers like that is pretty impressive.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 28, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Would Ibaka be Ibaka if he was on a different team?

It’s a question worth asking as we project Biyombo forward. What’s the point of drafting a player like Biyombo if we don’t have the organizational structure in place that will allow Biyombo to make the necessary improvements.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 9:46 AM CDT reply actions  

So I think what you are suggesting

Is that we shouldn’t draft anybody…

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

As of now my top 4 probably looks something like...

1) Irving (by an incredible margin)
2) Williams
3) Burks (I really do think he might be a jumpshot away from being a potential All-Star)
4) Kanter/Walker/Biyombo/Vesely/Thompson

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fair list

And I realize I am hard on Williams. My list:

1. Irving by a mile
2. Biyombo
3. Trade Out
4. Burks
5. Kanter/Walker

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

See in Alec Burks we have great athlete...

Who has a proven ability to get to the line and convert from short distances. All he really needs in order to become a really good/great player is a jump shot.

Burks develop a jumpshot seems much more conievable than Biyombo developing an ability to pass, shoot, dribble, and not turn the ball over.

I also didn’t realize how down you are on Williams. Would he be 6th on your list?

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Honestly

He’s not on my board. Terrible fit, for this team in this draft. If we select him and don’t make trades, he plays little and doesn’t deveolp, reducing his value, reducing his confidence. I just don’t see any scenario where we take Williams, maximize our other assets in a trade in a summer with a lockout, and come out ahead.

He’s not on my board because I assume someone else will take him before he becomes too valuable for the Wolves to pass on.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Different positions though

Assuming Biyombo plays Center, we don’t need him to be a good ball handler or passer. A 2 is expected to do those things. And don’t underestimate Burks’ jump shooting issues. It’s one thing for a college player to come in to the NBA with a decent mid-range jumper and then gradually stretch it out. It sounds like with Burks that he is a poor jump shooter from any distance. That is going to create a huge problem for him. Guys with decent free throw rates like Eric Gordon, James Harden, and Kevin Martin all have a jumper and that sets up their ability to drive and draw fouls.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 28, 2011 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Shooting guards who can't shoot are "Buy One Get Cuttino Mobley Free" in the NBA.

As far as his jump shot is concerned, that’s a skill that can be learned over time – eventually even Bruce “Bricks” Bowen managed to become a good spot up 3-pt shooter (I realize Gordon, Harden, and Martin are more than just spot up shooters, and it takes more than spot up shooting to set up the ability to drive, but shooting starts somewhere). Burks is in the upper echelon when it comes to athleticism though. But he needs to learn how to put that athleticism to work on the defensive end.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on May 1, 2011 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo development

Why does he need to develop an ability to pass, shoot, and dribble?
Did Ben Wallace ever develop those skills?

It’s much more acceptable to team basketball to not be good on offense than to not be good on defense.
Contrary to Rambis Philosophy, you don’t need to run a quarter of your possessions through your center.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Apr 28, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we are really looking to duplicate Ben Wallace

I think this is the ideal draft choice for the Timberwolves.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

They make clear Body Condoms Nows?

Leslie Nielsen must be rolling in his grave…

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

What's the point

of drafting anyone if you think like this?

by AQuintus on Apr 28, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think like that.

And the point is not to draft players who need that much development. If you draft someone who already has a long track record of being good, it’s less of an issue.

by LoveTo on Apr 28, 2011 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exceptional job on the comparisons here.

When we’re looking at the Sidd Finch of this year’s draft class, what we need is that context.

(And yeah, like Wile E and Blakely both say, what we need is for our front office to be as thoughtful about it as vjl110. Who knows, maybe if he works out they’d interpret it as a sign that cool names make players more marketable. Booker Woodfox of the Texas Legends is available, Timberwolves execs.)

When we’re comparing Biyombo to Ben Wallace, it bears repeating that Big Ben wasn’t even drafted by an NBA team, and was dealt from Orlando to Detroit as a sign-and-trade gesture in the Grant Hill move to the Magic. That’s not a typical developmental arc at all, and expecting it to repeat is, er, “hopeful.” It goes to the relative softness of the draft class that a guy like this is in consideration high in the lottery.

by feral on Apr 28, 2011 9:52 AM CDT reply actions  

Great write-up!

Quick question: you mentioned his age – has there been some rumors that he is older???

6’9" (7’7" wingspan), 240lbs

18 years old (this analysis assumes this is true)

by Breaking Ankles on Apr 28, 2011 9:54 AM CDT reply actions  

Yeah, "birthers" out of a vocation today are looking to expand their scope a little.

Various rumors, and talk of doing bone scans and whatnot. It only adds to the Sidd Finch appeal.

by feral on Apr 28, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Is questioning the age of foreigners just xenophobic, or is it blatantly racist?

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

I bought into the Biyombo age thing previously...

but I’m a changed man now.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would be willing to defend the age skeptics out there.

I spend time in west Africa and bureaucratic issues like birth documentation are not the clear case they are in the States. Families often don’t register a birth for several years, thus knocking ages around quite a bit. Additionally, if there is an incentive, it would be really easy to re-write history for a few bucks. The Congo is not a smoothly functioning government. Bribes aren’t just accepted, they are required for arranging basic government functions like acquiring driver’s licenses or visas.

I will be critical of our front-office if they don’t follow-up on the age concerns with Biyombo. They are likely BS, but they need to be taken seriously.

by vjl110 on Apr 28, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Where in West Africa?

I took a little trip to Senegal and the Gambia as a kid.

by feral on Apr 28, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

I work in the 2 countries south of the Congo.

Angola in particular is what I use as my model for Congo bureaucracy. I’ve been to Dakar a few times…. well the airport, so not really.

by vjl110 on Apr 28, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

I actually read an article that seemed to indicate that Biyombo could be as old as 37.

Mark my words, Biyombo will be as if not more controversial of a draft pick than Cousins was last year if he’s taken in the first 6 picks of the draft.

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 28, 2011 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow

That means Ibaka might have 12 more really good years on him. Let’s sell the farm for Ibaka!

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey, Biyombo might be his own father, at that age.

We should negotiate rights to all further offspring.

by timmuggs on Apr 28, 2011 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we're going based on looks then its no wonder Greg Oden has hardly played...

he looks to be about 74.

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 29, 2011 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not so fast!

I see your Jonas Jerebko sigline. You’re a spy sent from the Detroit boards with the goal of crapping on Biyombo’s hype in hope that he falls to you at #7. Well it’s not gonna work! We tanked a lot of games and lost a lot of fans to get to where we are today, and Biyombo will be rightfully ours* if we want him.

*until Detroit moves into the top 3 and bumps us down to 4th, which WILL happen.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 29, 2011 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

If Detroit ends up with the 2nd or 3rd overall,

they’ll obviously take the player who is most similar to Darko. And that will be Donuts Montezuma. Ignore the fact that Donuts is projected at around 9th to 12th overall, JoD knows what he wants and gets it.

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 29, 2011 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, come on.

The magic beans eventually led to value. Golden eggs, princess, personal growth.

The Wolves would never recognize magic beans for what they are.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Apr 29, 2011 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am not saying he is but assuming he is older

I am curious to know how age affects his value:

Say the same prospect is 20 – does he fall out of the lottery?

Say the same prospect is 25 – does he fall out of the first round?

If the draft is as weak as everyone is thinking he is still a very intriguing pick in the top 5 as long as he is <23.

by Breaking Ankles on Apr 28, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Even if he is 20 or 21, he simply hasn’t had much playing experience and high level coaching. If you give a top notch developmental coach in the U.S. a guy with that much athleticism and work ethic, he’s definitely going to still have upside. Now if he had been playing AAU and D-1 ball for years and years, then I would question whether he could really improve things like his free throw shooting and footwork.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 28, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great write up

He’s everything we’ve been told the Wolves want, long & athletic, smile etc…If Ronzone doesn’t care for him seems like the only way we don’t take him at #3 or #4.
What do you guys think a good stat line for him would be for his rookie year?
I would be super-pumped with 10/7/2 (blocks) 25 min. a night

by wet_nurse on Apr 28, 2011 10:00 AM CDT reply actions  

No chance

He isn’t going to be near those numbers if he plays next season. He just doesn’t have the experience to compete in the NBA. I doubt he could stay on the floor for 25 minutes without fouling out.

I keep saying this, but it’s gonna be a wait on this guy.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

total long term project, but one with serious potential to actually allow the wolves to have a postseason worthy frontcourt. This does nothing to solve the 1-3 problems the wolves are having though.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 28, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

But the way it’s looking, beyond Irving, no one else in this draft is going to solve the 1-3 problems.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

They can’t solve all their problems with 1 draft pick. Or probably 10 draft picks. Frankly, I still want them to trade the pick if it’s not Irving.

My view is this: we overvalue draft picks. Not “we” as in Wolves fans, but all fans, and maybe FOs too. The reason we do this is because we can dream on these players more easily, because we haven’t seen their flaws in an NBA setting. So we think they will be better than they actually will be. This happens every year.

The truth is that, while obviously new stars do come into the NBA via the draft, it’s unlikely that any single pick (outside the top 1 or 2 in most drafts) will turn out to be that star. Just look at the Wolves picks (that they wound up with on draft night) in the lottery since the last time they made the playoffs. Love is the one really good (or even reasonably good) player they got. Foye. Brewer. Flynn. Johnson. Sure, they could have done better each time, but the point is that they didn’t. That’s true of most teams. It’s hard to find that guy, even if he’s there when you pick.

Yes, the Wolves need to roll the dice to try to find talent. But in a draft with severely limited options, and a team that has managed 32 wins in 2 years (!) they need help right now. Help that they know WILL help. Obviously, it depends on what you can get, but if they wind up 2-4, I hope they explore their trading options, because I have little faith that the guy they get there will be a star.

You HAVE to discount for the possibility that Biyombo (or whoever) might not be any good.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't disagree with anything you say

And agree emphatically with your belief on overvaluing draft picks. Now as a fans of a frnahcise that continues to annually fail at selecting draft picks, we have a unique lens of cynicism to view the draft through.

I agree with your trade out strategy, but I"ve bought in to the irrational hope that is Biyombo, partly because of his profile, play videos, interviews, and writeups, but also because that elusive defensive center is hard to come by.

With the caveat that I am willing to take a flyer on Biyombo and of course select Irving at #1 or #2 if available, other than those two, I want nothing to do with any of these other prospects and would rather trade out for a known commodity.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

One thought

because that elusive defensive center is hard to come by

Is this actually true? It’s been hard for the Wolves to come by, but it seems like there are a number of these guys in the league. Howard, Nene, Perkins, Noah, Varajao, Chandler, Bynum. I’m probably missing some. Camby. And that some of them change hands. Perkins was had for Jeff Green. Chandler has moved around the league. Varejao probably could have been had at different times. Camby has moved around quite a bit.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's a fair point

Read some good stuff on LIberty Ballers last summer whereby they stated, although counterintuitive, it was much easier to acquire big men via trade than wings. I also know that these guys on this list all get paid. While Perkins, Chandler, Camby and most like Verajao will all change teams, I don’t know how easy it is to acquire one.

Jeff Green was a top 5 pick. Chandler had medical issues for several seasons. Camby is a 15 year vet. I also think that this list, as well as probably Garnett and Gasol is it as far as true defensive post players, so I don’t think the supply is there where even half of the 30 teams in the league can acquire a defensive center.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Foster. Przybilla. Not great, but good defensively.

But the point Liberty Ballers made might be right, because, as studies have shown, teams overpay for points. Thus, scoring wings get paid (and are valued) in a way that guys who do other things are not.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

So with Foster and Przybilla we've listed 12

I realize we’re probably missing more, but there is a clear supply problem with defensive centers.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

I can accept that. but I would say there is a clear supply problem with good players. Not just defensive centers. In other words, I don’t know that they are so scarce that I would be inclined to overdraft one. (or hopefully someone who will become one).

Not to say I am totally against Biyombo—I think I probably agree with you that I have little interest in Williams, and Biyombo is intriguing. But I’m still on a trade the pick train, myself.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Chuck Hayes is available!

He’d also serve as Kevin Love’s defensive coach. I’d take Chuck Hayes at 5 million over Darko in a heartbeat (although I’d prefer neither at 5 million).

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather pay $5 million a year

to the chair that Yi Jianlan posted up then keep paying it to Darko, who actively inhibits winning.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

At least Kahn justified the contract by saying...

We needed to give him additional money over his market value in order for Darko to feel “loved.” I think Kahn also eluded to an under the table agreement on a buyout if Darko is not getting adequate playing time, but that seems to go completely against the CBA.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kahn is an elusive fellow

Use Your Allusion! But don’t use Poe – I’m using Poe.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 28, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

While I agree that Chuck Hayes > Darko overall

Houston really has struggled more defensively since Yao left. Chuckwagon does an unbelievable job, but he and Scola are only able to do so much. Teams can very easily shoot over the top of those guys. At some point, length does matter on defense.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 28, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Even though I would take a flyer on Biyombo

I would not be upset at all if we passed on him to trade out of the pick. If we pass on him to take Williams, Walker, or heaven forbid Jimmer, I will be dissapointed.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

If Kahn takes Jimmer

He should hire a personal bodyguard. There’s only so much people can take.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 28, 2011 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting point. I’ve always thought an interesting study could be made that attempts to sort of take the concept of Bill James’ “defensive spectrum” for baseball (which essentially ranks the positions according to how difficult it is find quality hitters; e.g, C and SS are far left and RF/LF are far right) and apply it to the NBA, except probably using “player types” (e.g., offensive bigs, defensive bigs, shooting wings, slashing wings, etc.)

Anyway, as fun as Biyombo is, it’s probably a testament to how thin this particular draft is that he’s getting legitimate consideration as a top 5 pick (most of the players cited as comps in this post were drafted much lower; I believe Saen was maybe around 9 or 10, Ibaka was in the 20s, Thabeet was #2 overall but was an NCAA prospect). But the Wolves can’t do anything about that. I think it almost has to be considered from a value standpoint. That is, "would I rather draft Biyombo and pay him $4.5 million over then next 3-5 years, or would I rather sign Greg Oden for 3/$15-18 (or whatever). Should they just offer Beas + Flynn for Andres Biedrins and hope he gets healthier, and draft Burks instead? Should they package the pick for Varejao? Should be interesting to watch.

by jianfu on Apr 28, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Draft Biyombo AND sign Oden!

Then people would have to tread lightly in the paint for 48 minutes, at least for the 20 games Oden would give us. Sad, I absolutely love watching Oden play.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 28, 2011 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

A fantastic hedge

I love hedging, except when it results in us following the Rubio pick with Jonny Flynn.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 29, 2011 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

If we can dump one of Pek/Darko

I love that idea. It gives us a solid 1/2 and a #3 for when Oden goes down (and he will).

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's more like QBs in the NFL Draft...

…the good ones are so valuable and rare that you reach to take prospects.

Not quite as true with centers, but close.

by Django Z on Apr 29, 2011 2:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Curry and Cousins...

…were very reasonable picks the last two years with our slots and we ended up with Flynn and Wes.

I think we properly rate draft picks. Noone hits on every top 5 pick, but hitting on half is reasonable for a good GM.

by Django Z on Apr 28, 2011 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think we overvalue draft picks

Not in the slightest. Picks are exactly how awful teams add talent. Using the Wolves track record as an example only illustrates that this team is frustratingly and consistently awful at drafting, it doesn’t refute the point that the draft is the best way to rebuild.

Had the team simply taken the obvious pick, we’d have seen some combination of Noah, Roy/Gay, DeAndre Jordan, Curry and Cousins. This team could easily have 10x the talent had they drafted remotely competently.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

No we wouldn't

For several reasons, one of them being that none of those guys with the exception of Curry were the “obvious” pick at the time. I don’t want to get into a Casper argument, but they just weren’t. They are now, but not at the time.

Yes, the Wolves have sucked at drafting. Many teams make mistakes. But the point I stick to is that we tend to think the players we are drafting are going to be better than they are. If I can get a guy I know can start for me under a reasonalbe contract in exchange for my pick, that’s something I have to think about, because outside of the first pick in this draft, I can’t be anywhere near sure that anyone I draft will match that.

Just look at this thread. Biyombo=a bigger, stronger Ibaka? Nene? Ben Wallace? Really? How likely is it that he’s ever that good? And I don’t dislike the guy. But 20% chance? I can’t see it a lot higher. Yes, sometimes you have to roll the dice to try to get that transcendent player in the draft which is why I didn’t want them to consider trading Rubio, because there was a chance (5%?) that he was that guy. But this team has won 32 games in 2 years. The GM behaves like a fan in that he seems to plan for the best possible result, then when the roster in his head doesn’t match the roster on the floor, he blames the coach (who deserves it, but this team has very little talent).

We have to deal with what is, not what we hope it will be.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 29, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

That...

… more than anything, sums up why SnP has crushed the Wolves in terms of drafting. With the former, the home run swings are pretty much taken out of the equation (no pun intended). With the latter, best-case-scenarios seem to dominate the decision-making at times. The odds are that no player old enough to be drafted will make monumental progress in any respect. Bad defenders will stay below average in the future. Bad dribblers will remain below average dribblers. But yet we hang our hat on the best case scenario with Darko, the prayer that Beas somehow gets motivated defensively, and the idea that Martell just needed more MPG to really explode. I get that we have to take what we can get in terms of personnel — certain guys just aren’t available all the time — but at times it’s like we don’t understand what it means to multiply odds when we talk about moving forward. For this core to contend, we need Darko to pan out, Pek to pan out, Beas to pan out, Rubio to come over and pan out, and Wes to learn how to handle the ball and shoot better. The odds of this happening are so astronomically low it baffles me. If it happens, I’ll feel like we won the lottery on a single ticket. But I’m not going to pretend those aren’t the odds we’re dealing with.

by TheH on Apr 29, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

well said

This is exactly right.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 29, 2011 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Roy was the obvious pick

Absolutely he was. As was Cousins. As was Curry.

Drafting is not THAT hard. Most GM’s are just idiots who get cute or overthink it.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

unless you read the doctor's reports

In which case McHale did the right thing. I agree Cousins and Curry were the obvious picks and I wanted Noah but that was far from a clear pick.

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

I should clarify

It’s not always easy, of course. Drafts like this one are where GM’s earn their paycheck. That said, sometimes it really is easy and if you spend enough time in the top 10 you should be able to pull out some talent without thinking that hard. The fact that the Wolves have managed to be this bad for this long at drafting is almost mind boggling, but it doesn’t in any way prove the draft isn’t the best place to get talent.

Honest to god, I think the average fan who cares enough to post on any of the major Wolves-related internet outlets could have done a better job drafting than McHale and Kahn.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Wolves are putrid at drafting

but I’m not sure this: but it doesn’t in any way prove the draft isn’t the best place to get talent

is always true. It’s sometimes true. But especially in a year like this, when there just might not be many good players in the draft, it might not provide talent. I want to trade the pick because I think some GM will overvalue someone in the draft, and actually give up something good for the pick.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 29, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

The funny thing is

that even if the Wolves had some combination of Curry-Love-Cousins, it’s almost-definitely not a playoff team, right now. That’s just not enough veteran talent to beat out a team like Memphis or New Orleans (considering they had West for most of the year) for a playoff spot, right now.

Brandon Roy was the humongous blunder in terms of missing on a star, and now he’s got an untradeable contract due to the knee issues that worried teams before his draft.

It is a crapshoot for 99 percent of picks. Trading the pick is not such a bad idea. If we don’t win the lottery, it might be the only idea.

by Andy G on Apr 29, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

How was Roy a blunder?

Our doctors looked at him, told McHale that his knees wouldn’t hold up…. and they were proven correct.

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry but these are separate discreet decisions

I pointed this out with Blair. Even if you think Blair (or Roy) was doomed to break down after some number of thousands of minutes that doesn’t change the parameters of the decision to draft him. When you draft a player you commit to a known number of years and salary. The decision to re-sign the player with shaky knees is totally independent of that.. The Wolves could have drafted Brandon Roy with the plan of not signing him to a big money deal after his rookie contract was done. In all honesty what kind of haul would the Blazers have received for Roy two summers ago? The pick that became Griffin?

by Ailuridae on Apr 29, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

While you can plan that way, most teams simply don't

Considering that the drafting team receives the right of first refusal when players they draft hit the FA market I don’t believe that treating them as two completely separate decisions is the best idea unless you’re getting a sure fire player that will immediately help you contend but won’t last (i.e. Roy, Oden, Ming). That’s not to say that you should throw good money after bad if re-signing the player isn’t warranted but up front you can weigh the chances that due to injuries this guy will only last x number of seasons.

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

It's not a playoff team

Because our coach is awful and team cohesion and improvement takes longer than anyone seems to realize. That said, it still has 2 legit above-average starters and another guy with serious potential to be the same at the toughest position to fill in the NBA.

Even if you hate Cousins for whatever reason (fit, issues etc.), a team that made the obvious picks at least has talent, which translates into valuable assets. When Paul and/or Dwight inevitably force their way out of their respective teams, wouldn’t it be nice to have a stable full of actual talent to offer them versus the Wes Johnsons and Johnny Flynns of the world? That’s why you take BPA. Talent is always tradeable. Failed draft picks just fade away (McCants) or settle into roles as journeymen (Foye).

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

It is a crapshoot for 99 percent of picks. Trading the pick is not such a bad idea. If we don’t win the lottery, it might be the only idea.

Sorry, but this is silly. Its not a crap shoot at all. This is a “throw your hands up” defense that allows people to continue to believe that there is no way of assessing the probability that one player will be better than the next as a pro. But we actually have records of people projecting talent, including, SnP here that indicates that it is far more science than art.

by Ailuridae on Apr 29, 2011 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

The records are there

and are fun to look at. You can go back to ‘08 when a lot—possibly a majority around here—of Wolves fans considered Michael Beasley to be a better prospect than Derrick Rose. The science told them that. You can see, in that same draft, when DeAndre Jordan was frequently referred to as a 7’ Gerald Green. Now, he’s on our list of free agent targets. I believe some nice things were written about Joe “D-League All-Star” Alexander. Maybe I’m mistaken, but I don’t think so.

But, that’s not my point. “Crapshoot” was probably not the right word, but there is uncertainty with draft prospects above and beyond the uncertainty with proven NBA talent. That’s more what EiM was getting at, I think. I think he and I agree that the Wolves should aggressively pursue trading the pick if it isn’t Kyrie Irving, for an established shooting guard that the Wolves can be quite sure of what they’re getting, assuming no fluky injuries.

by Andy G on Apr 29, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who is going to give us anything of any worth

For such risky, unproven prospects in such a weak draft? Who’s a realistic SG target who is 1) going to be available and 2) actually talented?

Aaron Aflallo or JR Smith probably aren’t getting you much above 20 wins next year. Even Monta’s not going to do much.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hrmm, I guess what it depends what you mean by obvious

But you can really look back at the quantitative analysts and see that the players listed (jordan exempted) were much, much better prospects than the players the Wolves took. And there isn’t really much of an argument to the contrary. Hollinger isn’t even the best at this but is the most readily acceptable (and here agrees with the consensus of other analysts) and in each and every case he had the player listed as two full “tiers” better than the player the Wolves took. And yes that was at the time.

This isn’t hindsight or revisionist history but at the time each and every pick the Wolves have made (or the player they took in exchange) after McCants was a clear, undeniable mistake looking at the numbers*

*Obviously just talking about the college players

by Ailuridae on Apr 29, 2011 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

That is pretty much how I felt at the time

I didn’t like Noah that much, though. Thought he was a wierdo and wouldn’t make it in the NBA. And I did want Cousins, though I liked Wes plently. But otherwise, I wanted Gay, Curry, and Jordan in the 2nd was a no brainer.

I like Irving!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on May 2, 2011 4:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ibaka was on the floor for 18 minutes a game his first year

I would think that would be a reasonable goal for Biyombo’s first year.

Ibaka’s line…6.3/5.4/1.3

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

That would be a huge result

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

Indeed

A good goal, but probably not the most likely outcome

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think 25 minutes is optimistic..

but the numbers for rebounds and blocks per game may not be. I also don’t think a 1st year Biyombo stat-line is complete without including TOs and PFs.

by vjl110 on Apr 28, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

my guess is as follows

18 min, 7 pts, 7 rebs, 2 blks, 3 TO, 5 PF. And a whole lot of “WOW, did he just do that?!?!” and “(doublefacepalm) Did he really just do that?!?!?!”

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 28, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Getting the #1 pick & Irving seems like the best outcome

Getting #2 and having a team at #3 with assets and a raging Williams infatuation seems like a good 2nd place outcome. Trade Williams for #3 + good stuff, then draft Biyombo at #3?

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 10:35 AM CDT reply actions  

What would you do if no one offers to trade up to #2?

I would pick Biyombo.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

that's probably best

and a pretty accurate summary. If we can get another asset to faciltate the #3 of 4 slot to grab Williams so we can grab Biyombo and Burks if we can’t grab Irving outright, I would be relieved. I am sure I will be screaming at my TV come draft night.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 28, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's a great suggestion Wile E

I like Williams, but mostly my notion of taking him number 2 has to do with value. I like Biyombo increasingly as I learn more about him, and if we could move to 3 or 4 and get Biyombo plus good stuff, I would do that. A true impact defensive big man can do a lot of great things for a team.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 28, 2011 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

One side benefit to drafting Biyombo

Would hopefully mean Rambis couldn’t continue to run the offense through the post.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 10:39 AM CDT reply actions  

Homer J: "It's funny 'cause it's true"

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Any Comparison to Kevin Seraphin?

Just strictly from a physical standpoint doesn’t he compare fairly closely to Kevin Seraphin from last years draft? I know Seraphin didn’t have the experience of playing in the ACB but their makeups seem somewhat similar to me. If I recall there were several people hoping the Wolves could land Seraphin in the middle of last years draft. Seraphin played a little over 10 minutes per game and his stats left a lot to be desired. I think people are getting a little carried away with the Bismackmania at this point. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be considered but I think a lot of scouting still needs to be done on him.

by jama on Apr 28, 2011 11:16 AM CDT reply actions  

Pretty much the only thing that seperates Biyombo from someone like Seraphin in my mind....

is his 32 blocks over 238 minutes of ACB play, and his NHS performance. It really is only a thimbleful of awesome, but at least we have something other than physical profile to extrapolate from. I can’t stress enough that this is very shaky ground for making projections, and ultimately we will need to rely much more on our scouts than I would like.

by vjl110 on Apr 28, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Random Hypothetical trade proposals...

If Biyombo is available at the #7 pick, do you agree to this trade…

Minny Trades
Darko
J-Flynn
Webster

Detroit Trades
The #7 pick (Biyombo)
Rip Hamilton’s awful contract

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:23 AM CDT reply actions  

It's a trade that's probably still available...

Cleveland almost did it but Rip wouldn’t agree to a buyout.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's the steady handed veteran!!!

(who sabotaged his team’s season)

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

There is also the added humor value....

of sending Darko back to Detroit.

Sort of has a “Too many turn-overs at baby-hooks Mr. Darko. To the gulags with you.” feel to it.

by vjl110 on Apr 28, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ha, I didn't even think of that...

What’s the opposite of a homecoming?

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

A funeral?

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

A vacation?

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Apr 28, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

There are so many

hypothetical trades I’ve considered that had Darko going to another team. And then I realize he already “played” for that team, and therefore they are probably not interested in being the next stop on the Soft, Sad, and Twisted Ankle Tour.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

He wasn't half bad in Orlando

They may not mind another crack at him backing up Howard. And compared to the rest of their team, Darko’s contract is almost fair.

by Jerwol on Apr 28, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think

Howard’s gone the moment they lose to Atlanta. That roster is going to be more Ugh going forward than the Wolves line-up post-KG. Old, overpaid, long contracts, unmotivated, and poor defenders.

 2010-11 Roster
NUM PLAYER POS HT WT DOB FROM YRS
35 Malik Allen F 6-10 255 06/27/1978 Villanova 9
33 Ryan Anderson F 6-10 240 05/06/1988 California 2
1 Gilbert Arenas G 6-4 215 01/06/1982 Arizona 9
30 Brandon Bass F 6-8 250 04/30/1985 Louisiana State 5
3 Earl Clark F 6-10 225 01/17/1988 Louisville 1
25 Chris Duhon G 6-1 190 08/31/1982 Duke 6
12 Dwight Howard – C C 6-11 265 12/08/1985 SW Atlanta Christian Academy (GA) 6
14 Jameer Nelson – C G 6-0 190 02/09/1982 Saint Joseph’s 6
21 Daniel Orton C 6-10 255 08/06/1990 Kentucky R
7 J.J. Redick G 6-4 190 06/24/1984 Duke 4
23 Jason Richardson G 6-6 225 01/20/1981 Michigan State 9
5 Quentin Richardson F 6-6 228 04/13/1980 DePaul 10
15 Hedo Turkoglu F 6-10 220 03/19/1979 Istanbul, Turkey 10

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

And Holy Sh*t

It wasn’t until I copied and pasted it that I realized that Jameer Nelson is TWENTY NINE YEARS OLD!!!!

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

I thought he was 14?

Duh, those are jersey numbers. hey, age is not listed. you’re good at math?

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 29, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jameer was drafted after his senior year at St. Jo's.

That’s one reason he went 20th. Orlando took Dwight first overall and then dealt a pick to Denver (it turned into Julius Hodge) for the presumably-more-NBA-ready Jameer.

It still took him most of his rookie year to get onto the floor for big minutes with the Magic.

(And he was still younger than Wes Johnson at his NBA debut.)

by feral on Apr 30, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've already had this premonition..

He will be heading to Brooklyn, and to multiple future NBA Finals, as part of the superstar tandem henceforth known as “The Double Ds.”

I’ll root for them.

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 28, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who wouldn't?

Nobody roots against Double Ds.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 28, 2011 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Touche

I totally walked into that one.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 28, 2011 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Touche

I totally walked into that one.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 28, 2011 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Speaks volumes about how good Howard and SVG are

that they have such an excellent defense with a roster full of mediocre to terrible defenders. They’re actually not bad even when Howard sits, which really makes me want the Wolves to hire SVG if he gets canned.

Maybe I’m crazy, but I still feel like they’re going to win this Atlanta series.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 28, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would take it and hope to pick up Burks or BB.

It also divests us of two players we don’t want. If we could somehow change Webster to Wes I’d be even happier.

by zebano on Apr 28, 2011 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hypothetical Wolves look like...

PG: Irving
SG: Hamilton
SF: Beasley
PF: Love
C: Randolph

6th: Wes
7th: Ridnour
8th: Biyombo
9th: Tolliver
10th: Pek

(Rubio stays in Spain in this hypothetical, but we won the lottery!!)

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you suggesting a trade for rip hamilton here? And if so, what is the trade exactly?

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 29, 2011 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

sorry didn't realize it was further up

Pistons would not give up our #7 and Hamilton for Darko and Jonny Flynn. We’re already planning on spenidng money on Stuckey as our franchise pg (regardless of whether fans agree with this move, its what JoD’s intentions are), Hamilton showed that his contract isn’t nearly as awful as it was when he was riding the pine, and Detroit doesn’t want Darko back.

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 29, 2011 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think they do it if wolves give them their first round pick

then maybe wolves can get a conditional first round pick for 2012 (top 10 protected)

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 28, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

As an aside

the folks over at Detroit Bad Boys are clearly on the Biyombo bandwagon

Derrick Williams is going to Bust

by Ebomb on Apr 28, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Those jerks!!

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would do it

One less year than last year on that contract and he kind of fits a need. We’d be trading out of Darko’s contract and we’d be free of Jonny for a year. Webster would be the biggest lost, and that’s not saying much.

Rip could at least be a veteran leader if he’s not a major douche (which he definitely could be). Would be an expensive vet, but a vet nonetheless.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I feel like I do this a lot

But I really don’t think the other team would do this trade.

In one trade you have them:
1) Making a trade primarily to save money
2) Trading their lottery pick on draft day (with a player they want sitting right there, no less)
3) Bringing back the biggest bust in franchise history, a guy who cost them Melo and perhaps a longer run of contending
4) Taking a package whose ostensible “best player” is Jonny Flynn. JONNY FLYNN!

If you set out to craft a trade that was almost plausible from a value standpoint while maximizing the degree to which it alienated one team’s fanbase, I don’t see how anyone could top this. Piston fans would be furious.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 29, 2011 8:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yep

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Apr 29, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like your random input

that we can only guess at what you are commenting in response to.

I’m just going to assume it was in response to Ebomb’s comment about body condoms.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Heh--

Perhaps he’s scoring at home, and wished to share his exclamations with the Canis Hoopus community.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Took me a minute to stop laughing PD

That is awesome. Good for you Jose, you may share your victories with us any time.

by Madsen's 3-Point Barrage on Apr 28, 2011 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hopefully

somebody else was with him at the time.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

but is it a willing partner with Double D's?

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 28, 2011 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gives a whole new meaning to

“For those of you scoring at home….”

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Stupid Me

It’s fair to say I would do that trade with Detroit.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Apr 28, 2011 11:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sold...

and he seems to really be the perfect big complement to Rubio.

My concern is an Anthony Randolph, Michael Beasley, Anthony Tolliver, Biyombo 4 car pile up.

How Do Biyombo’s #‘s compare to Anthony Randolph…because can’t we project best case out on Anthony Randolph to be a Marcus Camby type? My Replacement Value Warning sign goes off when i see this.

minus the #1 Pick in the Draft, I think we should put any and all eggs into a quality veteran 2 Guard Search.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Apr 28, 2011 11:24 AM CDT reply actions  

I just can't see AR playing Center full time

People always mention Camby because he’s so rangy and lacks heft. But he has tremendous balance and instincts on the interior that I just don’t see with AR. He’s just so easily whisked away defensively.

by Rascal Flatts on Apr 28, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

AR
He’s just so easily whisked away defensively

Agreed.

AR Best case is on the Bench, maybe with Beasley, for some high energy Offense. A Big version of a light it up Guard. I could certainly Roll with a more defensive minded, Veteran Starting Lineup with a Beas/AR Goon Squad Bench.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Apr 28, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

They offered the trade to Cleveland,

It’s essentially the equivalent of the Baron Davis deal

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 28, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Weak draft

Bad contract and terrible for the team.

They really liked Darko once, why not twice?
Flynn is cheap and could be cut easily or play minutes if Stuckey leaves.
Webster is on a fair deal and they might even be able to steal a pick from us if he gets injured in a few months.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is some amazing work.

Fantastic.

That being said, I still don’t want to take Biyombo with our top-4 pick.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Apr 28, 2011 11:59 AM CDT reply actions  

But

he doesn’t have any weight or mental issues!

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Another great post.

that got me thinking about Minnesota’s own 6’7" post player with freakishly long arms, huge vertical jump, and great rebounding and defensive ability: Trevor Mbakwe. Mbakwe seems like a decent comparison for Biyombo, although I’m guessing Biyombo has even-longer arms and maybe more bulk on his body. If Trevor were playing overseas instead of in the Big Ten, do you think he might garner more attention as an intriguing NBA prospect?

by Andy G on Apr 28, 2011 1:11 PM CDT reply actions  

Perhaps

But definitely if he was near league leading Rebounds and Blocks per minute in limited ACB play.

With Biyombo..
I think his physical attributes are what make him draftable.
The small sample of success in the ACB is what moves him into the 1st round.
The huge NHS game is what might move him into the lotto.
And 3 top 5 prospects not electing to enter the draft is cements that status until the combine.

by Airete on Apr 28, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo is also 3.5 years younger than Trevor.

Just something to keep in mind – age of a prospect matters.

by hopps on Apr 28, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Hey! No cheap shots at Wes!

I thought we all agreed not to do that this off-season.

by Django Z on Apr 29, 2011 2:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agreed

to nothing.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 29, 2011 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Did you watch

Michael’s goodbye last night?

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 29, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll probably be watching that on hulu
So don't ruin it.... or else....

Or else I will ask Kahn to hold 3 more press conferences this week!

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 29, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wish you had that kind of power

Comedy gold.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 29, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

It was all

a dream.

And he dies.

(I’m referring to Kahn, not The Office)

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 29, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Mbakwe has a vespa motor

Biyombo has a 302 V8 with a dual Holley 4barrel carburetor and a 3/4 race cam with polished and ported valves and heads and custom tuned and fabbed headers, but other than that they are quite similar…
Okay, maybe I over-stated a smidge, but you get my drift.
Mbakwe would at best be a late second round pick because the upside is maybe Darko?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_does_a_dream_mean_if_you_see_dog_piles_of_dog_poop

by Dogpile on Apr 29, 2011 5:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do You Do Requests?

Blond Ricky?

One more thing with Biyombo and the Wolves: I think at some level David Kahn (assuming he’s running the draft) feels pressure to find noticeable, near-term impact. I suspect he won’t be willing to use might what be his final lotto pick on a guy he thinks might take awhile.

by jianfu on Apr 28, 2011 1:11 PM CDT reply actions  

In other words,

in this draft that’s turning out after all to nudge European players toward the top and discourage some NCAA talent from coming out before the CBA problem, our GM’s personal job security is going to be that extra thumb on the Timberwolves’ scale.

HIs job security’s already questionable, his draft record’s shaky as heck, and he can’t afford not to come out with some sort of immediate bump or he won’t be around himself… Let’s let that guy run the show. Oh yeah.

by feral on Apr 28, 2011 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

He thought he was getting that

with Wes and Lazer.

It didn’t work out.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 28, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the bottom line for me

is that the Wolves need to come out of this draft, whether it’s a rookie or a traded-for NBA player, with a perimeter player who is clearly better than all their current perimeter players.

Hopefully it’s Irving, but otherwise it needs to be Ellis, Martin, Turner, or somebody like that.

by LoveTo on Apr 28, 2011 2:20 PM CDT reply actions  

Turner

isn’t clearly better than all of the Wolves’ perimeter players. He’s not even clearly better than Johnson.

I’ve said it before, this “grass is always greener” crap that Wolves fans do is really annoying.

by AQuintus on Apr 28, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay, fine, take Turner off that list.

Although I think he would have performed way better in Minnesota as the team’s primary ballhandler. But that wasn’t my point.

My point was that we need a perimeter player who can create and score. The only way we’re getting one is to use our draft pick, whether we select someone or trade it.

P.S. For Wolves fans, the grass actually is greener on the other side in most cases.

by LoveTo on Apr 28, 2011 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

With 32 wins over the last two seasons, the grass is greener everywhere else.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on May 1, 2011 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

“Stop me if you’ve heard this one before, guys…” :)

by TheH on May 1, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

thank you

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 28, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think I understand what you're saying

“Life’s a beach” around here, right?

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 28, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Awesome write-up

You’ve completely convinced me on taking Biyombo anything beyond number 1.

To add to your work, I would like to say that Biyombo was lauded for his effort. A thing Thabeet never was. Thabeet seemed to generate most of his numbers in college based on his physical dominance. I think that makes a huge difference in how stats translate. His physical dominance is already mitigated playing against the bigger, better, and stronger euro teams and his effort still managed to translate to some decent numbers.

To me, this guy is Mark Madsen with a dominant physical profile. Somehow, Madsen managed to offer some miniscule contribution while having almost no skill at all. Add some size, athleticism, and at least some [defensive] skill? Sold.

That said, it’s only because this is a relatively weak draft and the only other prospect I am intrigued by beyond Irving is Williams and he plays a position of less than 0 need for the Wolves. I would project Biyombo as a higher fouling, but more active Ibaka. If he can be something of a locker room leader (or at least someone that makes guys fired up to try to match his intensity (KG anyone?)), that would be great, too.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:20 PM CDT reply actions  

If chuckd were around...

I’m sure he could point out a glaring flaw or two in that one.

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 28, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

chuck?

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 28, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is an example of a case

where a joke was made, but it apparently wasn’t obvious enough and someone else had to say it as clearly as possible.

I think senor Bahlgren pointed that out already

If chuckd were around…
I’m sure he could point out a glaring flaw or two in that one

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 28, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I find everything about this section to be

excellent.

I hope chuck finds it.

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 28, 2011 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dunno, in his day Birdman was more athletic and a better defender

… bait is on the hook …

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Apr 28, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

everyone knows

that white players aren’t athletic. %

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Apr 28, 2011 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

chuck hacked John Doe's account

seriously good impression

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 29, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Are you sure

I thought he was alluding to the difference in their tatoos….

you learn something new everyday I guess

%

by zebano on Apr 28, 2011 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe she has an interesting and long winded quote tattooed on her back?

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on May 1, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Birdman minus that tattoos and the years of heavy drug use...maybe.

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 28, 2011 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey, Biyombo's still young (maybe)

There’s plenty of time for him to fulfill his potential as the next Birdman by getting a bunch of tattoos and doing hard drugs.

by Dumbhead62 on Apr 28, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol

heavy drug use…

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 29, 2011 3:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great great read...posting a fanshot on DBB.com so Pistons fans can enjoy all the hard work put into this.

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 28, 2011 4:10 PM CDT reply actions  

Love these posts...

Keep up the good work.

Never heard of or seen this guy until recently, but watching that video pretty much made me think his comp was Emeka Okafor. Great motor, good timing and technique on his blocks, and limited offensive skills.

Might be as good a complement to Love as we might find. If we don’t get #1, we should try and trade down for him.

"I'm gonna make you cry...I'm gonna make you cry and dip my cookie in your tears!!!"

by mutleyil on Apr 28, 2011 9:43 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm starting to think it's Biyombo or bust with this draft

Maybe Williams really isn’t all that I want him to be. Biyombo is starting to creep into my mind as the second best prospect in this draft, and we need his skills REALLY badly. As long as we don’t pass on Irving, I would like to come away with Biyombo.

I like Irving!
We want Williams!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on Apr 29, 2011 3:48 AM CDT reply actions  

Your work is great and a Ben Wallace comp should be great, he played in italy before join Magic, and how HumdingerTV said Ben never need learn to shoot, dribble or pass to win a ring. Im not sure if this guy will be the next big ben but i would shot him with our second pick if still available.

by Killboard on Apr 29, 2011 4:15 AM CDT reply actions  

It would be an impressive pick if Biyombo ended up beign as good as the best defensive player in NBA history.

At least he posted the best Defensive Rating in NBA history.

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 29, 2011 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

single season Defensive Rating*

Jonas Jerebko once killed a charging female rhinoceros in heat protecting its young with nothing more than a hook shot.

by The Boourns on Apr 29, 2011 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Holy notsupposedtosayshitonthisblogificanavoiditbutidontthinkicaninthisinstance!

You just talked me into taking him #1 overall. BIIIIYOOOOMMMMMMMBOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 29, 2011 7:17 AM CDT reply actions  

You know what I just realized?

We’re arguing over who the Wolves would take with the 1st pick in the draft. Talk about a non-issue!

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 29, 2011 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

And definitely bad karma

NO MORE TALK OF #! PICK!

Won’t happen if you talk about it. It will only happen if we talk about what to do with pick 3 or 4

by timmuggs on May 1, 2011 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Minor note for vjl110

You’re missing a decimal on some of the Wins Produced stats. As fun as it is to suggest that playing Darko 48 minutes would result in 96% of a loss from him alone, that… well it probably isn’t correct anyway, though I can’t totally refute it.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Apr 29, 2011 8:13 AM CDT reply actions  

Rec!

I hope we lose this lottery and get Biyombo! BUT lets hope KAHNN don’t screw up this draft!

by abcnerdd on Apr 29, 2011 8:44 AM CDT reply actions  

I still gotta disagree

I hope some sucker takes Beasley for a #3 pick,
Someone else takes Flynn + Pek for the #5 pick (sweet salary dump)
We win the lottery
We draft Irving, Biyombo, Burks
We sign Oden
We deal Rubio for Iguadala (or throw money at Stuckey)
Darko gets bought out cheaply and goes to Europe

Irving/Ridnour
Stuckey/Burks/Ellington
Webster/Wes/Tolliver
Love/Randolph/Tolliver
Oden/Biyombo/Tolliver/Randolph

That’s a lineup I can get overly excited about and it will probably take at least 2 months before I feel let down. =)

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 8:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Now you're falling in love with the lottery

something that will cloud your judgement in really bad ways.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 29, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm aware of that

Sadly I have no faith that anything other than sheer dumb luck will help us out. I must point out that my one nod toward realism is that for 2 of the 3 draftees I want to get a veteran to start ahead of them for 1-3 years (perhaps longer if Oden’s knees magically improve).

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Besides at this point

which of Beasley, Flynn and Pek do you have any reasonable hope for?

I personally think Pek can be a 15mpg backup center but we should be able to get a close approximation from Tolliver or a FA pickup.

Right now I would love to give all 3 to Indiana for the proven commodity that is Paul George (who also still boasts some upside).

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo with the third or fourth pick is something I would be comfortable with.

However, I think Jan Vesley and Jonas Valanciunas are better long term prospects.

by xraraavis on Apr 29, 2011 8:58 AM CDT reply actions  

I still like Vesely quite a bit

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 29, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I know you watch a lot of Euro games

care to provide a scouting report? How is his D?

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's very agressive on the floor

He’s not a finesse player, though he remains slender. He loves to run and throw down with authority. His lateral quickness is a question, especially as it relates to guarding on the perimeter. He’s pretty active with length and work rate. Explosive.

I think the shot will come, though he hasn’t had a good year shooting 3s. Strength will be added (he’s still very young) and he has a good frame.

I like his intensity when he plays. I don’t know that I’m eager to pick him at 2-4, (TRADE THE PICK) but I think he’ll have a career.

It might take a year or 2 for him to acclimate.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Apr 29, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here's the problem with this though

the U.S. team is obviously our farm system for guys who we want to improve their shot. But Vesley couldn’t play on the U.S. team, so his shot has no reasonable expectation of ever being fixed….

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 29, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Does anyone think we are giving up on Pek too quickly?

In the NBA it takes time for Bigs to adjust and develop into their full potential. This is common even when they are older when the come out of college (see Hibbert Roy). I think Darko is the guy to get rid of and we should keep Pek to be the backup long term. He would be a great change of pace to the “Long and athletic” starter of the future.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Apr 29, 2011 9:35 AM CDT reply actions  

I'll certainly give him one more year, but the 3 second violations have to go

Those are turnovers, I hate em when Johnny commits em, I hate em when Bealey throws the rock away, I hate it when Darko gets stripped. Conversely I love it when Love gets a rebound or Tolliver takes a charge.

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would bet

they give Darko one more year to get aggressive, and they stop running the offense through him. When he fails to do so, they invoke the Gentlemen’s Agreement.

Pek’s a good back-up center: nothing more, nothing less. However, other than Biyombo and maybe the skinny Brazilian, there aren’t any long and athletic centers around the corner in this draft or the next one.

Maybe they can wheel and deal Pek/Darko to the Blazers if Oden doesn’t get re-signed.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 29, 2011 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Screw Oden

He’s a mistake. We know he’s a mistake. We wish he wasn’t and are trying to talk ourselves into him as irrationally as Bismack. Oden isn’t worth a flyer. He’s the definition of red flag.

If we want to improve at the center we can. Instead of looking for Jordan, Gasol, Oden, trying to scheme for Gorat or pray Bismack pans out quickly we can look at some other real options.

Kamen is on a high dollar contract he’s not athletic, but he’s better than Darko and I imagine quite gettable.

Now that you have the taste of vomit in your mouth. Short term our best option at C is likely Love and Tolliver doing their best with Pekovic or Darko not starting and contributing less than 20 mins a night. Yippee.

I’d much rather spend our resources getting proven quality guard play than pursuing Oden. We’ve already spent too much on centers that don’t contribute.

by Airete on Apr 29, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Uhhh . . .

 . . . I wasn’t advocating that the Wolves get Oden, only that the Blazers might need a big man if they don’t re-sign Oden.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 29, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

So you're AS smart

as fifth-grader—no more, no less.

My English, she no so good, neither.

I assume that Taylor, Kahn, and Rambis know what they're doing.

by PoorDick on Apr 29, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Any Vikings fan here feel like Kahn wuz draftin last night?

SIDE NOT: Blakely, i think it wuz u homie, sum1 here suggested The Weeknd tape “House Of Balloons” dat shit iz beyond thowed!!!! Mayn iss like my secodn favorite record dis year cannot fuckin stop bumpin dis shit “girl u wanna be high for this” ah mayn!!! amazing music

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Apr 29, 2011 9:42 AM CDT reply actions  

Thankfully I haven't followed the NFL draft live since Tice failed to turn his pick in on time

That one worked out quite nicely for us, but it’s just frustrating watching other teams take the player I want. Thankfully the TWolves always seem to draft top 10 so I can watch their pick then leave.

by zebano on Apr 29, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I told you!

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 29, 2011 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

yea mayn, thanks again

doze lyrics iz crazy! Loft Music mah favorite “sometimes the only girls we fuck wit have 20 different pills in them”

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Apr 29, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

There were rumors that he signed with Drake...

That kind of scares me, but at least we got this album!

You said “House of Baloons” is number 2 album of the year, what’s number 1?

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 29, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

G-Side "The One...Cohesive"

Iss probably my favorite rap album of de last 5 years. I’ve pimped it here several times befo, you can listen to it for free righ here mayn:

http://g-side.bandcamp.com/album/the-one-cohesive

Ugh, i really fuckin hope Weeknd dozent sing wit Drake dat guy iz a fuckin joke.

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Apr 29, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Your boy...

Alright Mayn, I’ll check it out!

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Apr 29, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

lmao

smoke sumn mah dude

MAYN HOL UP!

by MAYNHOLUP on Apr 29, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

that's some good stuff

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Apr 29, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, thought we'd take Fairley

but instead we let him pair up with Suh in Detroit.

by Andy G on Apr 29, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, there are a lot of people here who talk about taking home run swings, rather than safe picks.

Isn’t that exactly what we’re dealing with here when talking Irving vs. Biyombo? Yes, I realize that we’ve typically used this metaphor for lesser potential guys (singles up the middle), whereas Irving himself has home run potential, but there’s also a risk/reward potential of already having the playmaker in Rubio and getting the Ben Wallace 2.0 in Biyombo. I think you have to look at that broader “home run swing” picture.

I haven’t fully talked myself into it, but if you tell me that Rubio’s definitely coming? Eggs, meet one basket. Either these things work out in harmonious fashion, or it blows up hellaciously, and we rid ourselves of Kahn.

I rarely get over the 2 rec hump...

by BrettAhlgren on Apr 29, 2011 11:19 AM CDT reply actions  

There isn't a debate that I know of if we get the number one pick.

It’s Irving. We all cheer and are happy for the off-season turning our focus back on to Rambis/Kahn departures.

The Biyombo irrational exuberance is based on the idea the FO doesn’t trade the pick and we end up 2-4.

We know it’s a reach. The justification comes from the idea that if Kahn didn’t trade down for Flynn or Johnson why would we assume this is a skill that Kahn’s figured out now?

I’m still under the impression that the Flynn pick was part of a home run attempt to get Evans from Sac that fell through. Kahn gambled and lost. Johnson on the other hand was the player he liked so he refused to gamble even though it was a questionable pick at 4.

Now the only pick that seems a lock is number 1. If we get it fine. Not much need to speculate. In the meantime we don’t have Rubio inked, don’t know the draft order and can’t assume the FO will trade the pick or get much value in return. Enter Bismania.

by Airete on Apr 29, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is there much to say his realistic downside isn't Stro Swift?

Incredible physical tools: check
Excellent shot-blocking instincts: check
Lack of BBIQ and basic skills: check
6’9 but best played as a C: check

Swift was a pretty useful player despite being 6/9, 225lbs and apparently not being smart enough to learn basic plays. BB doesn’t seem to be dumb, but his lack of experience could handicap him in a similar way. Swift was able to be a 16+ PER guy most of his career while also being a solid defender by coasting solely on physical tools and motor. Swift + half a brain and 20lbs could be a really nice player.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 2:07 PM CDT reply actions  

Didn't Swift

have some major effort issues?

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Apr 30, 2011 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

If Kahn wants to keep his job...

If we don’t get the No. 1 pick, he has to trade our pick in a package deal for some sort of veteran, prefer a borderline all-star like Iggy. I would love, in theory, to have another prospect on the team in Biyombo (and I’m gonna make the Africa on Africa comparison and say Dikembe — mad shot blocker, limited offense, awesome accent), but Kahn can’t afford another prospect. Wolves have to win now or he’s done. If we don’t get Irving, we gotta trade the pick.
If we get Irving, we should trade him or Rubio for an established All-Star. After Orlando’s, New Orleans’s and Philly’s quick exit from the playoffs, there ought to be some good dudes available, if he’s ballsy enough to pull the trigger. We need veterans, not rookies.

by monkeywolf on Apr 29, 2011 3:43 PM CDT reply actions  

Thing is

Even if we add an Iggy type player, we’re still going to be awful next year. I’m not sure why anyone would think that adding one borderline all-star is going to vault this team to anything beyond 25 wins. The roster is still awful top to bottom aside from Love and Rambis will likely still be the coach. Even if he’s not, it’ll be a new guy and the team will have to learn his system, so we’re damned if we do and damned if we don’t.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Apr 29, 2011 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Depends on your train of thought

I believe the roster is already good enough for 25 wins regularly. Last year was another fraud. We have a coach how is obviously over-matched. We didn’t execute in the fourth quarter and failed to correct mistakes that were made in the first quarter of the season by season’s end. If Rambis stays 25 wins might be the best we could hope for next year. That’s not an impressive total.

Adding a player like Iggy would not propel us into contention, but it would add talent. A real coach and starting lineups that include our best two way players and role players getting consistent and sizable minutes would shrink the point differential gap. Assuming the roster is pretty much the same a group like Ridnour, Iggy, Webster, Love and Darko/Pekovic wouldn’t set the world on fire, but they’d compete most nights.

by Airete on Apr 29, 2011 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Take this guy at 2nd overall

and don’t look back. I’ve been convinced. Williams might be Beasley minus the flaws, but how likely is it? Is he more of a Thad Young? Or just an undersized 4? A lot of questions there. BB, I feel, has the reach and body type of a legit C. If he’s only 18, he will undoubtedly get much stronger and continue to fill out that frame. Basically, I want this guy. Looking at the strength of this draft, I wouldn’t be surprised if a lot of teams look at him as the second best prospect in this draft. A super-sized Ibaka? C’mon now. That’s sick and you know it.

I like Irving!
Biyombo or Bust!

by John Wall on May 2, 2011 1:43 PM CDT reply actions  

Awesome post

I love Biyombo. Have to say as a Warriors fan, I’m hoping he doesn’t go this high, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

_______________________________________________________________
The City: A Golden State Warriors-Centric NBA Blog

"It’s not all about stats…you’ve probably never played basketball in your life. There are things called intangibles. He is what you call a winner. Led his team to a national title. We need people who know how to win. He obviously has to be doing something right." (dhod)

by Evanz on May 5, 2011 5:05 PM CDT reply actions  

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