Kevin Love Gets 48 All-NBA Votes
Love didn't make any of the three All-NBA Teams. But he did receive 48 votes, which would've put him on the All-NBA Fourth Team, if there was one.
Other people receiving All-NBA votes?
Al Jefferson (3)
Kendrick Perkins (3) [he played in 29 total games]
Andrea Bargnani (2)
Emeka Okafor (1)
Eric Gordon (1)
Luis Scola (1)
Some quality voting right there.
about 1 year ago
TimAllen
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My changes
I’d flip Kobe and D-Wade, Dirk and Durant, and LMA and Gasol. Blake Griffin makes a strong case, but forward is a tough position to crack the Top-6. I probably wouldn’t put him in over Z-Bo or Pau, but it’s close.
Aldridge got more votes and, subsequently, on the All-NBA Third Team ahead of Love?
I guess it helps when your team makes the playoffs. Then again, I must be mistaken since I thought this was an individual honor…
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on May 12, 2011 1:43 PM CDT reply actions
Second Half of the season Aldridge was a freaking beast
and Love missed the last handful of games. That accounts for the switch from the all-star game in my opion.
Agree, Aldridge passed Love
That isn’t a poor reflection on Love.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 14, 2011 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
John Doe's (i.e. the correct) ballot
1st Team
Chris Paul
Dwyane Wade
LeBron James
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwight Howard
2nd Team
Steve Nash
Manu Ginobili
Kevin Durant
Paul Pierce
Pau Gasol
3rd Team
Derrick Rose
Kobe Bryant
Kevin Garnett
Lamarcus Aldridge
Tim Duncan
People will be shocked to see Nash and Paul above Rose, but I put a lot of stock into on/off ratings, and guys like Paul, Nash, Pierce, (gulp) Aldridge, Duncan, Ginobili, and Garnett were absolute studs by that metric, whereas Kobe, Rose, Westbrook, and Stoudemire look quite unimpressive. Apparently sharing the ball and being efficient really are that important!
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on May 12, 2011 3:50 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
So important that the guy at the top of the list didn't even make the postseason.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
by TimAllen on May 12, 2011 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
God you're dense sometimes.
The Suns with Nash on the floor had a point differential of +5.5 points/100 possessions, which is roughly the pace of a 55 win team. The Suns with Nash off the floor had a point differential of -11.5 points/100 possessions, which is worse than any team this year. These numbers are right there on the page for you to reference before you make an ass of yourself.
Shame on the idiot that rec’d him. We’re trying to get him to grow out of this; he doesn’t need the encouragement.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
You seem to take this fairly personally.
Do you have some insecurity issues? Tell me about your mother.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on May 12, 2011 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nope
I just think TimAllen is an ignorant asshole. And now kinda you.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I'll just have to
dig down deep and try to find a way to live with that.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on May 13, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
John Doe
At least Tim knows who the heck he is!
Seriously, some overreaction here. Tim is very bright and a smart ass (one in the same). He’s perfected sarcasm, as is evidenced by the pregames.
Don’t think his response was a personal attack.
Hell, PD makes a cutting or sarcastic response to almost every post I make.
………..We’re still dating.
Cut him some slack.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions
What he was on "pace" to win doesn't matter.
His team didn’t win 55 games. They don’t hand out trophies at the end of the year for best point differential (as much as you might like it if they did), and they shouldn’t hand out awards for players based on that either.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
That's such caveman logic.
What you’re arguing is that a player should be held responsible for how his team performs when he isn’t in the game. By TimAllen logic, the Mavs’ well-publicized 2-7 swoon when Dirk Nowitzki went down with an injury is not evidence of Dirk’s importance to his team, but of his failures as a suit-clad motivator.
Returning to your first comment, I have some simple questions that I’d like you to actually answer so I know if anything I say is actually getting through to you.
1) Do you understand that a league-best on/off number is likely to come from a player whose team performs very well when he’s in and very poorly when he’s out, because that will produce a greater disparity than a player whose team performs very well when he’s in and still pretty well when he’s out?
2) If Steve Nash’s improved an otherwise neutral team to +5.5 while he was on the court, do you consider that more impressive than him improving a sub-Cavs-quality team to +5.5? Because had his team been neutral during his time off the court, they’d have a season point differential of +3.4, better than the Grizzlies, Blazers, and Hornets and thus almost definitely would have made the playoffs. Would that impress you more?
3) Do you understand that, if you were going to knock any player for not making the playoffs, Steve Nash is literally the dumbest player you could have chosen, since no other did more to pull up his crappy team’s performance during his time on the floor?
4) Do you think sharing the ball and being efficient aren’t important?
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on May 13, 2011 2:47 AM CDT up reply actions 7 recs
So, you throw out the insults and then want me to play your game?
Boy, you have some audacity.
But, just so you think I’m not dodging your questions, I’ll answer:
1) Yes
2) It depends. If the neutral team made the playoffs, then yes, I would be more impressed.
3) No.
4) No. They’re important but there are things that are more important. Efficiency is wildly overrated.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
You deserve to be insulted.
That’s what happens when you wear your ignorance like a badge of honor, and then make remarks mocking others. You clearly don’t understand the on/off metric based on those answers, so you shouldn’t be making quips about its conclusions or the conclusions of those who do know how to use it.
I almost never enjoy interacting with you. It’s not going to change. A correspondence between us isn’t worth your or my time. I’ve been making a concerted effort to not start anything with you, even when you say something I think is wrong. For the sake of both of us, I’d appreciate if you’d do the same.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
by John Doe on May 13, 2011 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, you've been making a real concerted effort not to start
anything. That’s pretty clear in this thread.
In case it wasn’t clear…%%%
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Silly of me to expect you to understand a simple request
When you reply to my posts that aren’t directed at you in an attempt to mock me, that’s YOU starting something. When YOU start something, I feel compelled to attempt to explain to you why you’re wrong. This is a waste of my time and, since you never seem to get anything out of it, yours.
Simple rule: in all threads going forward, how about you don’t reply to any of my posts, and I won’t reply to any of yours. I will adhere to this. Can you? I’m not joking about this; I have no desire to interact with you ever again and would appreciate making it official.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
No, I cannot. It's a message board about basketball.
Deal with it.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
by TimAllen on May 13, 2011 3:37 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Drat.
Let the record show that I offered.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I really don't have a problem with you.
I think you’re a bright guy, and even though we disagree about the importance of using on/off stats to determine All-NBA honors, I agree with many of your takes. I don’t understand why we need to ignore one another simply because we don’t agree on our methods of basketball analysis.
If you felt my initial Nash comment that started this chain was insulting, then I apologize, because I didn’t mean it to be. It was a sarcastic quip, but it wasn’t meant to be insulting at you personally. And other than Nash (and maybe KG), I think the rest of your list is pretty good.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
by TimAllen on May 13, 2011 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This. A thousand times this
That’s what happens when you wear your ignorance like a badge of honor, and then make remarks mocking others. You clearly don’t understand the on/off metric based on those answers, so you shouldn’t be making quips about its conclusions or the conclusions of those who do know how to use it.
Tim is demonstrably ignorant about areas of analysis and insults those who are not repeatedly. He has spent years on this blog libeling Dave Berri for instance. When anyone takes the same tactic with him that he takes with so many other posters he tells whining stories about his trips to therapy.
by Ailuridae on May 13, 2011 5:52 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are a lot of folks on here who get into it with others..
And yet there isn’t one of them I probably wouldn’t like and enjoy talking to if I knew them in person. Well actually just one and one alone.
You are about as hateful an individual as there is. Seems like you hate everybody and every thing, I’m sure yourself included. Feel sorry for you bro.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Anyone ever tell you that you look a lot like Keyser Soze?
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 8:56 AM CDT up reply actions
You are about as hateful an individual as there is. Seems like you hate everybody and every thing, I’m sure yourself included. Feel sorry for you bro.
I am indeed hateful – I really, really hate ignorant people especially ignorant folks ike yourself and TimAllen who resort to juvenile attempts to mocking those who actually have a much, much better understanding of the issues at hand.
Tim does this stuff constantly. And when he is called out about it he doesn’t alter his behavior he just goes full WATB.
As for you, you spent an entire season defending two Orangemen who were among the leagues worst players in decades and mocking those who pointed out the obvious – Wes and Jonny were both awful. Given that you can’t see what is plainly happening in the actual games you can’t be taken seriously.
by Ailuridae on May 13, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You have NO understanding of basketball. Let's set the record straight on that one.
Your “knowledge” of the game is 100% reliant on statistical information available to exactly everyone else alive. There not an ounce of basketball instinct or actual knowledge in your body.
I have no problem with you embracing fully statistics to find relevance here. It’s your only option.
There is just no excuse for how you treat people.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Again
Someone who spent an entire season insisting that Wes and Jonny didn’t stink has decided that I have no understanding of basketball. And that person, you, is consistently demonstrably ignorant over many areas of discussion.
In the infancy of the internet I used to argue anecdotally with the ignoramuses that populate every Wolves board. Following the 01-02 season I realized that was pointless and it all came down to the the silly and now ridiculous assertion by many such people that KG was a better or equally good SF as he was\would be at PF. That was just insane. So instead of arguing anecdotally with someone like that (or like you) I just went to the hard data as it became available.
But that isn’t how I view the game and isn’t really how I discuss it with people who know what they are talking about. There I can talk about the why or Chris Paul being a much, much better player than Derrick Rose or Kobe. But here or on twolvescentral with the likes of you? That is akin to talking about economics with people who can’t add or subtract.
by Ailuridae on May 13, 2011 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Panda
Why, if you disagree do you find it necessary to belittle demean and insult? That’s the issue.
Wes had a dissapointing season. You’ve seen me write that multiple times. Jonny’s year was aweful. You’ve seen me write that as well.
Do I think there were mitigating factors? Absolutely. Do I think Wes still has “the goods” as our initial discussion began months ago? Yes I do. Do I think Jonny has the talent to be a relevant NBA pg. Yes I do. I also have supported other Wolves players Im sur you hate.
If you don’t agree that’s fine. When you end up wrong about these guys I won’t feel the need to belittle you or call you an ignoramus. I won’t need to try to humiliate you by slamming you for sharing a weakness.
I fully respect your opinion. As Ive said with PD,time will tell on these guys.
I just don’t understand the hatred.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’re kidding with this post, right? I mean seriously. Just up this thread you just wrote:
You have NO understanding of basketball. Let’s set the record straight on that one.
and then you follow that with
Why, if you disagree do you find it necessary to belittle demean and insult? That’s the issue.
FFS, really?
Referring to an ignorant person as ignorant or a lying person as a liar is simply the best way to deal with them. I realized you simply had no idea what you were talking about the second you wrote that Wes Johnson was “The goods” – that’s a statement at odds with a demonstrable reality I also don’t spend a whole lot of time or energy pretending that creationists or flat earthers should be taken seriously in conversations about science.
But whatever. Much like John has decided there is nothing to be gained by interacting with someone like Tim I feel the same way about you. You’re a demonstrably ignorant Orangemen fan trolling this message board. You haven’t made a remotely insightful post since you’ve been here and your schtick is tiresome.
by Ailuridae on May 13, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If....
… you’re gonna call out the ignorant and the liars, you gonna call out the “intellectually dishonest” as well? This shit is well past the expiry date.
P.S. – I can’t believe this is my first g.d. post here…. but damn….
Tangerine Dream and Tim Allen are indeed intellectually dishonest
and both have demonstrated it many times.
Cripes there is an entire thread where TD tries to make a point about Steve Nash’s value in PHO by pointing out that he was traded for Martin Muuresepp while ignoring and then never acknowledging that Nash was actually traded an unprotected first round pick from a Mavs franchise that was historically awful. A team that had won 20, 24, 24 and 26 games before the lockout traded an unconditional first round pick for Steve Nash and TD tried to claim Nash was traded for a fringe NBA player and never acknowledged the error. How is that not incredibly intellectually dishonest? What do I gain from interacting with a person like that?
Your "knowledge" of basketball is limited to statistical data available to the world
I respect that. I don’t belittle every person on earth who knows less than me.
Therefore, I don’t belittle you.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions
The point is Panda doesn't know basketball as a player would
He has a perspective based entirely on data, which is fine. This is a fan site.
Do I think he can watch a player in person and project him. No.
I remember going to a cuse Drexell game and seeing a player I had never heard of, nor had anyone else. Based on what I saw I told the person I was with “he’s a pro”. He was Malik Rose.
I made the same remark the first time I saw Flynn and the first time I saw Wes. Not every player works out. Jonny is fighting the system.
Point is I don’t have to apologize for identifying pro talent to a person who relies 100% on data.
I also don’t discount data, which beyond common civility is why I respect Panda’s views.
Now, why call me out on a borderline insult and allow Panda to throw Tims therapy in his face and remain silent.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Because I would like to hold you to a standard
The same one that you would like to hold Ailuridae to. Civility and respect. It’s hypocritical to call someone out for being arrogant and insulting while doing the same yourself.
I don’t appreciate his condescension and intellectual arrogance either (although I often agree with his conclusions).
Received
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Whoa.
Ailuridae might enjoy rubbing people’s face in his genius, but there’s a reason for it….he definitely knows basketball. To make the ‘point’ you made leaves your whole argument in shambles.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on May 14, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions
JD. Here's where you're wrong
Agree or disagree noone “deserves” to be insulted. And frankly, from reading your comments, you don’t mean that.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions
All NBA Team honors
is one area where it should be much less about the overall team performance than it is about the demonstrable ability and affect a single player has on a game and team. I find it illogical that a player couldn’t be recognized as one of the top handful of players at a position while his team did not make the playoffs.
The whole of a team isn’t the final word on an individual’s performance, it is only the framework.
by Krotz the Wall on May 13, 2011 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I guess we disagree on this then.
I personally don’t think anyone who fails to make the playoffs should make an All NBA team. But that’s cool. That’s the great part of these awards. It gives us stuff to talk about when we don’t agree.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Tim, that's a bit crazy
When a guy like Ron Coomer makes an all-star just because every team needs a rep I agree, and that’s a joke.
But one man does not a playoff team make. You can’t punish a great player for their circumstances, whether it be coaching, talent or injuries.
To limit all star eligibility to half the league seems harsh.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Cooooooooooom!
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on May 13, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I didn't say All-Star, I said All-NBA.
I think All-Star should be more about individual talent (thus, a guy like K-Love can make it), but All-NBA should – like the MVP award – put some emphasis on team success. Just my opinion though.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
My bad
I still don’t agree but to a lesser degree.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
just out of curiosity: since you like the principle behind the on/off ratings, why not go further
and use APMs? to my mind its the same idea (one which i hugely support) but more refined, more transparent about its inaccuracies, and far less likely to give guys credit or the opposite just because their backups are really shitty or quite good.
"if Jonny [Flynn] loved playin competeant basketball az much az he loves de movie Salt
he might be ok."
- MAYNHOLUP
3 reasons
1) I didn’t have those stats handy
2) I’ve seen some studies calling into question the reliability of plus-minus once you adjust it. Even a full 82 game season is susceptible to sample-size issues once you start calculating using the data of every other player someone shared the court with, or such is my memory of what I read.
3) The league’s best APM player could theoretically have been someone like Kevin Love, even if the team still lost while he was on the court, if APM thought the players he played with were that bad. But the best On/Off players are going to have to have led teams to very positive point differentials while they played. I like having a measure of how successful a team actually was with that player, and on/off seems like a relatively fair way to include it. This is the biggest reason.
The shitty backup issue is a significant one. I do keep in mind when I’m looking at the numbers, and thus take certain results with a grain of salt. For example, LaMarcus Aldridge destroyed Kevin Love in on/off this season, but Love’s team always had a decent PF to replace him with, whereas Aldridge was his team’s only reliable big man for long stretches this season.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
"Even a full 82 game season is susceptible to sample-size issues"
Hell even 2 years can be too noisy to make confident prognostications.
Your third team pg may end up MVP
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Been taking a break from the NBA?
He already did. They announced it about a week ago. My rants were long and spiteful.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
Playoffs sry
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions
Ah.
Well he certainly hasn’t been the best player of the playoffs so far. I think pretty much everyone could agree to that. But yeah, if the Bulls win, of course he’ll be Finals MVP. My money’s on the Heat though. They’re playing at a much higher level than the Bulls or anyone else.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
I am thinking Heat as well
but in recent years, the early playoff struggles or success haven’t been good predictors of champions. Boston went 7 twice en route to beating the Lakers. LA went 7 against Houston en route to winning a title. Cleveland was killing teams until they ran into Orlando, who was ever-so-close to losing to KG-less Celts before that.
So, as someone cheering for the Bulls, I still think they have a solid chance. But, if the Heat make the Finals, I can’t see any of the Western teams being able to defend them well enough to win 4 out of 7.
The mavs couldn't defend the laker's either right?
I think they will use their matchup zone on the heat
I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on May 13, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
If OKC wins my final four is intact
I have Bulls over Heat and Bulls over OKC from here. If I could change to Mavs I would but I can’t.
Bulls Heat is some watchable basketball.
PS. Nash deserves to end his best days on a playoff team. Hope he gets moved to a contender.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Nash is as good an offensive point guard as there's ever been
Insert him for Magic Johnson in the Lakers dynasty and aside from not being able to fill in at center do they skip a beat?
But at this point isn’t Rose the better player? He’s also turned that franchise around.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions
There's this weird phenomenon with Rose
Ever since he entered the league, people have seen so much potential that they’ve consistently evaluated him as being one step further than he actually is, maybe just because they’re excited about what he’s going to be become. It’s not the end of the world, because he keeps improving, but he’s been a bit overrated for his entire career.
He took a big step this year. 25 and 8 is some sick stuff, and his scoring efficiency is no longer in chucker territory. By individual stats, I think you’ve got to give him the edge over Nash. Nash has better efficiency and more assists though, so it’s actually a lot closer than people realize. What’s holding me back is that traditionally, hyper-efficient, pass first point guards produce more team success. People look at Rose’s Bulls and think “How is that not all him?”, but the numbers show that they were only 2.7 points/100 possessions worse when he wasn’t in the game. Compare that to Nash’s Suns, which played 17 points/100 possessions worse with him out. Rose’s team impact was less than his individual stats would suggest. Nash’s was greater. That’s why I favor Nash. I doubt I will next year.
If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!
But without Rose they smell.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions
But it doesn't change who they are as players
Last year Lebron had an on/off offensive rating of +15. This year it was down to +5. Does that make him a worse player? Does that make him worse than, say, Steve Nash? No.
No it demonstrates that the team with last years best record
was that good for one reason only. This year he’s on a better “team”.
That’s my point about Rose. Even though there are some viable teammates I think they’re as good as they are for one reason only.
As an aside, don’t you find on/off even more unreliable than +\-?
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 14, 2011 6:19 AM CDT up reply actions
So how do you feel about Westbrook?
His on/off was really bad this season, dead last among players playing at least 60% of their team’s minutes.
Nothing crazy about your points
On/off is also a tough evaluator because it’s subs against subs. To be very unscientific, don’t better teams generally (I concede not all do) have better/deeper benches?
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 13, 2011 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
ON/OFF
Is there an issue with who you played with and against.
I think coaching decisions can introduce a lot of noise into these metrics, especially in small sample sizes, and the sample size when the stars are off the court is small relative to when
they are on the court.
by WinTheLottery on May 13, 2011 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Does anyone know who's representing the Wolves at the lottery?
I’m think Darko because HE’S VERY LUCKY to have gotten that big of a contract/been drafted so high/etc
by RB10 on May 12, 2011 11:22 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Glen Taylor’s widow?
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on May 13, 2011 8:48 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Washington won it last year with an old widow
there any old widows around? nobody’s luckier than them.
I like Irving!
Biyombo or Bust!
We're sending her husband
because you know we’re going to draft a stiff
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