Coon v Kahn
by Stop-n-Pop on May 21, 2011 7:56 AM CDT
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PrintOver at Hoopsworld, they ask questions:
What is the significance of May 31 as a deadline for the Timberwolves to sign Ricky Rubio for 2011-12? The local newspaper references it here: http://bit.ly/eCVOEt
They can't sign him now, nor does May 31 matter. Here's a rule directly from the CBA:
"No Team and player may enter into a Player Contract from the commencement of the Team's last game of the Regular Season through the following June 30."
April 13 (the date of their last regular season game) was the last day they could have signed Rubio, through June 30. They would ordinarily be eligible once again as soon as the July Moratorium is lifted, but this year they have that little labor problem to deal with. They won't be eligible to sign him until the new CBA is in place.
This is pretty much in direct opposition to what Jerry Zgoda wrote about the team's approach here (i.e. what the team is telling everybody about the May 31st date).
They both cannot be right. Who has the take that takes the day? I think it's Kahn. Here's a selection from Section 5, Article VII in the NBA CBA:
From February 1 through May 31 of any Salary Cap Year, a First Round Pick may enter into a Rookie Scale Contract commencing with the following Season, provided that he as of or at any point following the first day of the then-current Regular Season (or the preceding Regular Season in the case of a Contract signed from the day following the last day of the Regular Season through May 31) the player was a party to a player contract with a professional basketball team not in the NBA covering such Regular Season.
Now, keep in mind that yours truly is not a salary cap expert nor do I have any tips from the team on this particular issue. I have the CBA in a pdf on my iPad, that's it. Whatever the case, one CBA expert (Coon) or another (Kahn--that was supposed to be a big part of his expertise, remember) is going to be very, very wrong about one of the most public CBA-related issues in recent NBA history. Who will it be? I think Kahn is right on this one. I'll do what I can to dig around and get to the bottom of it.
What's really interesting about Coon's quote is that it is in the same sub-section of the CBA as the quote about May 31. They are literally on the same page (159). Is there room for legitimate legal disagreement on this point? I don't think so, as (4)(ii) of Section 5 pretty clearly refers to the ability of a player (Rubio) who plays pro ball not in the NBA (ACB) to sign a deal with an NBA team all the way up to May 31st. I think Kahn > Coon on this one.
Now, please keep in mind that should Kahn find himself in the right (and, again, I think he is), he now finds himself in the most stressful position of his short tenure: He has 10 days to sign Ricky Rubio. A few things:
- Ricky Rubio is still playing under contract in Europe. How can the Wolves sign a player still under contract and playing with another team? Rubio's season could end if he loses the next two games (tonight and Monday), but that's kind of unlikely and the semifinal round extends past the May 31 deadline.
- There might be a catch to the contract pickle. The CBA May 31 comment clearly refers to the contract commencing with the "following season". In this case, the following season might not technically exist until sometime after Rubio's current ACB contract allows for a buyout. Is this a valid loophole? I don't know but it seems to be the only way around the whole "he's still playing" issue. Is this CBA provision only applicable to draft picks from the last draft? Again, I don't know but there appears to be no indication that it is limited to only the most recent draft.
- The likelihood of David Kahn lasting the calendar year with Rubio still Wolves property but still in Europe are somewhere in the 0.1-5% range. Again, Kahn has 10 days to either having his Rubio bluff be wrong, him being wildly incorrect about a CBA-related provision (which would probably be the most embarrassing outcome of all, considering this sort of expertise was probably his strongest credential for the job), Rubio signing; or, what I think is increasingly likely, that Rubio is traded in the next 10 days for someone who will be in a Wolves uni come hell or high water at the start of the 11/12 season. FWIW, while it just might sign his death warrant, short of lucking into Kyrie Irving, I will actually have some respect for Kahn should he put the future of this franchise above and beyond saving his skin and not trade Rubio prior to May 31. The only way Rubio doesn't need to be a Wolf is if Irving lands in their lap. Even then, if someone like Enes Kanter turns out to be the real deal/equal prospect in their scouts' eyes, it's going to be hard to part ways with someone the fanbase has waited so long for and been told so many good things about. The Rubio Bubble is still pretty big.
[Edit: It looks like I spoke too soon with the above answer. There's another rule in the CBA that conflicts with this one. It reads:
"From February 1 through May 31 of any Salary Cap Year, a First Round Pick may enter into a Rookie Scale Contract commencing with the following Season, provided that as of or at any point following the first day of the then-current Regular Season (or the preceding Regular Season in the case of a Contract signed from the day following the last day of the Regular Season through May 31) the player was a party to a player contract with a professional basketball team not in the NBA covering such Regular Season."
These two rules can't both be correct. One says no new contracts after the start of the last regular season game. The other says certain contracts are allowed through May 31. I did some checking, and it seems the May 31 rule trumps the "no new contracts" rule, so if the T-Wolves signed Rubio by May 31, it would be allowed. The "no new contracts" rule SHOULD have been written to say, "Except where allowed by Section 5(e)(4)(ii) below, ..." which is what they usually do when one rule is the exception to another. Sorry about any confusion.
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My only question is
can the Wolves sign him when he is still under contract to another team?
Waiting for Relevancy...
That's the big question
Rubio’s team is playing against Unicaja in a best of 5 series. They would have to lose the next 2 to end their season. So, technically, on Monday his season could be over. That’s a hell of a bet for Kahn to make. The only other option is the “following season” language.
(Is it quite impossible to have a deal signed but unannounced, in some sense?)
Would that violate the letter of the law in terms of respecting the other contract? Allowable in the NBA?
Kahn can do little to control this other than have all the legal threads in his hands so he knows what he’s negotiating toward. Can’t say I blame him for “betting,” if it really does come down to whether Rubio’s season ends in time.
I think...
…it could honestly be read as the contract not taking effect until the next season starts. If that’s not the case, then something is either fishy or he’s betting on something that probably won’t happen.
Is the ACB contract exclusive?
I’m not CBA expert (never laid eyes on it), take all this with a big, fat grain of salt.
If neither contract is exclusive, couldn’t he enter into both contracts simultaneously? Technically there wouldn’t be a brech of either immediately, allowing time to resolve the issue. Couldn’t Ricky submit his buyout and resignation associated with the ACB contract, tendered and binding now, but effect at a future date?
I can conceive that there are myriad ways to lawyer the situation. I don’t know that a successful approach is out there to be used, but it wouldn’t surprise me in the least to learn that there is.
by stuntmonkeys on May 21, 2011 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Well (again, not having read any of the docs), couldn’t the buyout be excuse a restriction on PLAYING for another team, rather than SIGNING with another team?
by stuntmonkeys on May 21, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
This is where I'm hopeful the team...
…has done their homework. I’ve been monkeying around with LexisNexis today trying to find out anything about the 95 CBA and the Kings’ signing of Peja prior to the 98 lockout. The Kings signed him on June 8th and I can’t find the damn 95 CBA anywhere to see if that had anything to do with a May 31 type provision. Something like this would be pretty easy for, say, a reporter with a rolodex and a salary.
No they can not
FIBA and the NBA recognize each others contracts. Rubio is still playing under a 5 year deal he signed with Barca – which does not expire for 3 more years.
Rubio HAS to exercise his buyout first, then he can sign. His buyout option is for a period of time AFTER his season ends. His season is NOT likely to end before May 31. Hence the chances of him signing are very small.
The only silver lining is some reports (more rumors than facts at this time) that Barca might be willing to extend Rubio’s buyout period to a point later in the summer (but before Sept Euroleague camps begin) This is HUGE for Rubio – he can hope to have the labor contract signed thus guaranteeing a salary for 2011-12 AND still buy himself out.
Barca’s coach is not a huge Rubio fan and would prefer a different style of point guard. But the BArca management still has high hopes (and some marketing plans) for Rubio long term.
Will be very interesting to watch. But this will not be settled by May 31.
by Just A Fan on May 21, 2011 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The one thing I want to know...
….is if the no futures contracts part of the CBA cancels out any chance of him inking a pre-May 31st deal only to have it go into effect the second the new CBA starts off the “following season”. I can’t seem to get a clear answer on this question and I’d like to think that the team has asked both the league and the ACB and Barca if this thing is a possibility and that they have it in writing, because at this point, Barca is playing beyond May 31st.
My understanding from people I have talked with
is that the futures contract part of the CBA applies to NBA contracts for NBA players and NBA “eligible” players.
I have been told that the FIBA/NBA agreement on contracts precedes the CBA because a player under FIBA contract can’t sign an NBA contract. I have further been told that the CBA language really will not even come into play until Rubio becomes “eligible” by exercising his buyout. Then we can start worrying about his signing date, rookie scale slot, etc. as described in the CBA.
Frankly, this makes lots of sense to me – could you imagine the chaos if players overseas could “pre sign” with an NBA team while still playing for their Euro league team? What would happen if the player got hurt? What if the player refused to perform in fear of getting hurt? Imagine the legal issues.
I tried to google the current CBA to get the exact language for “eligible” players but I could not find it. Maybe someone who has a copy can look it up.
Here's what I've been able to piece together from a few folks over the weekend..
….the May 31 date is something of a relic from when overseas leagues used to end on an earlier date. The clause itself is intended specifically to allow NBA teams to sign EL draft picks immediately following the EL season in order to get them on the contract scale of the year they were drafted. It can also apply to past drafts, to include 2nd round picks.
There is also a difference between the CBA definition of NBA eligible players and players under contract in another professional league. Rubio is not subject to the futures part of the CBA because he is not technically eligible, as he is signed with another team (or something along these lines; this was the part of the explanation I didn’t exactly follow—-the main point was that the futures bit didn’t apply).
Anywho, getting back to the May 31 bit, the spirit of the law in this case clearly seeks to allow players like Rubio to sign with teams like the Wolves. The whole point of the clause was to allow foreign draft picks to sign with the NBA team who drafted them following their EL season. That is entirely the point of the clause/exception to the normal end-of-the-season signing deadline.
In this particular case, Barca can agree to allow Rubio to sign a piece of paper with the Wolves prior to May 31 as long as he finishes the season and agrees to buyout his contract in the previously-agreed-upon time frame following the conclusion of their season. The actual contract would not go in effect in the NBA until the start of the following season, which, in this case, is as soon as the new CBA starts up. Plus, nobody in the NBA is going to challenge this deal being signed. If Barca thinks it is ok, there doesn’t appear to be anybody lining up to make a legal challenge. If everybody wants it, and it can exist in the spirit, if not letter, of the law, then I’m not sure who will stop it.
Catches/concerns:
- Rubio will be without a paying basketball deal from the end of ACB until the start of the next NBA season
- Rubio will still have to decide whether or not he wants some time off to wait until new CBA
From what I can tell, Kahn is absolutely positive this is the way it is going to go down. Everyone I have talked to say that both internally and with the local media, he is saying that the May 31 bit is an important date and if anyone has received any season ticket calls lately, I’m sure you’ve heard the certainty with which people are talking about Rubio being here next season.
Will it happen? Is this the case? We’ll find out soon, as the May 31 date does indeed appear to mean a whole lot in terms of moving this thing forward.
BTW: If Rubio doesn’t sign the paper before the 31st, I don’t foresee a window where he could sign before the start of next season. They start up again in September/October and I’m not sure the CBA stuff will be handled by then. If Rubio doesn’t get the buyout right now, he is not tied to the current rookie-scale structure. This leaves him in an interesting spot. Nobody is going to mess with the clause that says EL players can wait 3 years before coming over and then their rookie scale deal goes away. However, it does appear that the rookie scale is going to be messed with. If Rubio doesn’t sign before May 31 and get on the current rookie scale, I think the chances of him staying over next season go through the roof no matter what happens with the CBA timeline. Again, May 31 is big.
Endorsement deals
Rubio will be able to earn income doing ads during his time off if there’s no CBA deal right away.
BTW:
The big problem with the possibility of a buyout extension is that the CBA might not be taken care of by then.
Right
Look, it’s clear to me that Rubio is going to have to make a decision while the lockout is ongoing. Hopefully, by the time he has to decide, at least it will be more clear to people in the know (like agents) whether there’s going to be a deal made and thus a season or not. There has been a suggestion that it’s not the worst thing if he buys out and comes over, even if there is uncertainty about when the season will start, because he could make use of the physical break from competition.
Of course, that also means a break from getting paid, so I don’t know whether that holds water. As an aside, I assume he’s planning to play in Eurobasket, which is in early september.
I still think you are making far too much out of May 31st, because I’m sure nothing will happen by then, and that’s always been true. If no decision is made by the 31st, which it won’t be, I don’t really see why that forces Kahn’s hand to trade him.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 22, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions
Has anyone seen the FIBA/NBA deal?
There are many different ways in which the league’s could honor each other’s contracts. If the deal indeed prohibits an ACB player from signing with (as opposed to playing for) an NBA team, is it impossible that the Wolves could get FIBA (or ACB or Barca) clearance to sign Rubio while he’s still under contract in Spain? Or that they got such clearance when the buyout was negotiated two years ago? Or that the FIBA/NBA deal, whatever it is, allows the teams to negotiate around it?
Not a Granger fan...
Personally I think we’d just be better next year with D.Williams at the 3 next year rather than Granger, much less to say long term.
I kind f wonder if the trade being mentioned involving Granger is for the #2 pick OR Beasley and Rubio. None of the above would be mt first choice, but my second choice would be the Rubio/Beasley combo
Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."
Also how does Granger count as that veteran presence Kahn covets.
He was the only malcontent on the US team, he can’t play any defense, and he’s never done anything to get us into the playoffs.
Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."
Us= his team
Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."
Is this not just rule-and-exception?
The Coon response was “the basic rule,” and the “First rounders playing on an overseas contract” exception is just that – an exception. Right? The distinction between free agency contracts and the ones sign by first round picks is pretty drastic to begin with, and we have all sort of other little CBA quirks – the way cap holds apply only over the summer – that apply mostly to unsigned picks.
I think that could be the case....
…but he presented it in a fairly open-and-shut way, which is kind of weird since you have to read about all of 2 inches below that on the page to see the May 31 bit. Of course, I’m not an expert on this, but it seems kind of strange.
Very well done,
SnP. This is the type of report that one would have once hoped to get from the Strib, PiPress, etc.
I don't do "fanshots."
by PoorDick on May 21, 2011 8:31 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Danke
I’m really surprised that a local sports editor hasn’t realized that the Rubio story has a fairly large “ending” on May 31st and made it a point to, you know, make a big deal about the biggest non-Love deal about the team. They’re sitting on a fairly decent national story in terms of NBA coverage and they don’t seem to have put 2 and 2 together. Either the date means something big or Kahn (and, after writing this, me) doesn’t know what in the hell he is talking about vis-a-vis a very important aspect of the CBA—-which, BTW, speaks directly to the 1 player he’s all-in on.
I just went back and re-read Zgoda's post about the latest Rubio trip
and he buys into the May 31st deadline angle, and also discusses the potential complication presented by the never-ending Spanish season. But he never really addresses whether the latter could make it impossible for Rubio to sign by May 31st. It does seem like a really obvious thing to figure out.
Stenography
I have noticed a run on steno pads by sports writers from our local media outlets. I believe dictation is the order of the realm at Target Center with Donkey Kahn.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
yep, thanks for writing this
it’s nice having you back and interested, even if it’s the ‘horrific car crash’ sort of interest.
You have some of this right, I think
My reading of the relevant provisions is that you are correct; the relevant provision is the one you quote, and he could be signed before May 31st. That contract (meaning, his paychecks), would then start the following season (whenever we get next season started). I assume that whatever CBA we get will have to “grandfather” in existing contracts, so even if there is a significant change in how rookie contracts are structured, as to either length or amount, a contract signed under this current CBA will have to be honored.
Where you are wrong is on the implications, I think.
As I’ve said in the past, he will not be signed by May 31st. As you point out, his season will be ongoing. He’s competing for a championship.
I don’t think that it’s the end of the world if (and when) he is not signed by May 31st, and I’m not sure why you think so. As you point out, Kahn’s in real trouble if he doesn’t have Rubio next season, but May 31st isn’t next season. He’ll have the opportunity to sign Rubio when there is a new CBA.
Now, perhaps it’s your position that unless Rubio is under contract to the Wolves, he won’t risk exercising his buyout with Barca. That might be; I have no idea what he’s going to do. I’m not entirely sure why; whether he signs now or not, the risk to next season (and his NBA paychecks) is the same. Clearly the Wolves will be ready to start paying him as soon as they are able.
This May 31st thing has always been bogus. It matters only to the extent that we have less than perfect information. If Rubio has promised that he’s coming (which I don’t know if he has or not), then when he signs doesn’t really matter, as long as he’s in uniform when next season commences. Taylor obviously isn’t firing Kahn while the lockout is going on (unfortunately). If he’s said he’ll come if the lockout is solved by the time he has to buyout his contract, that’s a different thing, but something Kahn has no control over. If he’s said he’s not coming this year at all, then that’s yet another situation.
In any of these scenarios, May 31st doesn’t matter.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 21, 2011 9:14 AM CDT reply actions
May 31st
I thought the whole point in signing prior to may 31st was so his contract would be under the current cba. If he waits after may 31st he would more than likely sign for less. This is based on the way he has been playing. How could may 31st date not matter?
by rickyrubio10 on May 21, 2011 9:25 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
well then it is question of what Rubio likes the most:
being signed under the old CBA or having the flexibility of playing another season in spain if the lockout lasts long enough.
by BelgianClipper on May 21, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions
It has nothing to do with how he's been playing
the new CBA will certainly include a rookie scale that would determine his salary. Whether there is a big reduction in rookie salaries remains to be seen, but rookie salaries clearly aren’t the problem for owners right now, so I doubt it becomes a big issue in negotiations.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 21, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
perhaps the 31st may thing is important from a PR standpoint. If he doesn’t sign he might chicken out if the lockout lasts too long and play another season in Spain
by BelgianClipper on May 21, 2011 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Cba
It has a lot to do with how he’s been playing. If he doesn’t sign prior to may 31st he will no longer be under the rookie scale. Same as splitter. If he plays poorly again next season he will make less money than what he would make under the current cba. May 31st will let us know if he’s playing this year or not. IMO it’s big date for Kahn and the twolves.
by rickyrubio10 on May 21, 2011 12:16 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Where I differ...
…is that I think May 31st matters in a sense that it will force the whole saga to move forward one way or another. Either it means something and Rubio definitely won’t be here next year, or it’s bunk. Beyond that, I suppose I could have been clearer about it in the bullets section, but I think the whole “he’s still playing” angle is a significant (read: nearly impossible) hurdle. I’d like to think that Kahn isn’t betting that Barcalona bows out on Monday, but that appears to be what he’s doing. I’ve heard some rumors about the “following season” thing being in play but that seems to be something of a stretch.
I definitely think we’re playing with incomplete info. I also think that Kahn believes in the 31st date, as I doubt the people who wrote about it in the paper came up with it on their own. That being said, I think the May 31 date means something in terms of moving the story along, one way or another. If I’m reading it correctly, Rubio’s buyout only works in the ACB off season. His first game this season was back on October 21st. Will the new CBA be in play before then, allowing the Wolves to sign him under the terms of the new deal? Will Rubio want to sign under the terms of the new deal? Again, that’s a pretty big bet to make if that’s the case.
Here’s what I think is happening between Rubio and Kahn: Rubio is telling him he wants to come but this is completely separate from the actual facts on the ground that will allow him to come. What Rubio says about his motives have nothing to do with how he can make it over here in practice. Here are his possible windows:
1- Pre May 31 if the “following season” thing is legit and he will not technically be under contract with the Wolves while his season is still ongoing.
2- Pre May 31 if Barca bows out against Unicaja (unlikely).
3- ACB off season if the new CBA is in place and/or allows for it.
Am I missing any? I don’t know. What other windows could exist? If he’s said if the lockout is solved, what are the chances that means he’ll be in the middle of ACB’s next season?
I guess my biggest concern is does his team in Spain want to let him go.
If so here’s what I imagine. They can agree on mutual terms and modify his current contract to allow him to exercise his buyout now to release him from his contract at the conclusion of his ACB season. He could sign with the Wolves by May 31st for a contract that will start the following season. Under no point would his contracts overlap.
Problem here is that I don’t know if his Spanish team would play ball or if Rubio wants to be here enough to press the issue. I believe any change to his current deal would have to be mutually agreed upon.
Either way May 31st matters in that it’s another window Kahn has gone public with.
There is no doubt that the looming lockout complicates matters
But to the extent that May 31st “moves the story along” I doubt that’s really significant. Taylor isn’t going to do anything until there’s a new CBA and/or the Rubio thing becomes clear (coming for next season or not). Either he (Taylor) already knows what’s going to happen with Rubio or he doesn’t, but the soonest we’ll know is either Rubio signing a contract with the Wolves, or whatever buyout period in his Barca contract comes and goes without him exercising it.
Ultimately, he’s going to have to make a decision at some point while the lockout is in place, almost certainly. Perhaps he’s already decided; that’s what a couple of articles have indicated, but that’s the Spanish press.
Either Kahn knows what Rubio is going to do, and thus will either trade him or not, or he doesn’t, so he’ll have to either trade him or he waits. If he waits until the buyout period ends (which means waiting until the lockout ends) to trade his rights, does that really effect Rubio’s trade value? I doubt it.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 21, 2011 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions
My best guess...
….is that the team has done extensive work surrounding the importance of the May 31st date and that they believe it matters for a reason. I think they believe it’s the date that determines whether or not Rubio will be here next year. Every other scenario requires improbable things to happen.
As for Taylor, I think Kahn is closer to the edge than is let on. He has placed his entire schtick on Rubio. Some of the calls that have been made to season ticket holders about Rubio are fairly explicit in their belief that Rubio will be here next year. Kahn has sold a very specific internal and external product that heavily involves Rubio.
I see that you have written below that this seems like a set up for a failure and I think it is. I think Kahn has been selling a product with a real expiration date and that date is about to hit without the delivery of the goods.
You could be right about this
…the team has done extensive work surrounding the importance of the May 31st date and that they believe it matters for a reason. I think they believe it’s the date that determines whether or not Rubio will be here next year. Every other scenario requires improbable things to happen.
But it’s not how I see it. The most improbable scenario to me has always been that he signs by May 31st. That has never made sense. But perhaps they know something I don’t (although I’ve said that before and it always turned out that they know less).
The most likely scenarios to me have always been a) he waits until summer, and either buys out his contract then, if it seems likely for there to be a significant NBA season, or b) he doesn’t buy out his contract if there looks to be a significant risk to the NBA season.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 21, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
We already know the way one of these contingencies comes out:
if there looks to be a significant risk to the NBA season.
No way has all the CBA sturm und drang resolved itself by July or August, or even September. Not going to happen. At a minimum we’re surely over 90% certain that there won’t be summer ball. I would be stunned if the NBA had settled its labor situation by the date for training camps to open next fall.
There is a significant risk to the NBA season. Whether or not that means a significant number of games get lost, or a whole season, is the only real question left about that for me.
Summer League
already canceled and I agree that the CBA will drag on and on…
Waiting for Relevancy...
By improbable things,
Do you mean a new CBA being in place before the next ACB season begins in October? Because I don’t see why he couldn’t just opt out and sign after July if a new CBA is agreed upon in late August.
I don't know the details or dates
but I’m pretty sure his contract with Barca includes a specific period during the summer where he has the option to buyout his contract. He can’t just do it unilaterally at the drop of a hat when he feels like it.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 21, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
Ok...
…so would that window be while they’re still playing? Or can he just sign a contract before that opt out window and then consumate the opt out when the time actually arrives. Let’s say his buyout window is all of July. Can he really sign a contract with the Wolves by May 31st, even if their season ends? He’s technically still under contract with ACB even if he plans to opt out at his first chance.
I think it has to be during a period in the off season
I think the Wolves hope that either his season ends on Monday or that the contract he would sign with them wouldn’t technically go into effect until the new CBA starts next season. That’s my reading on it. If the buyout window is in July, and the Wolves sign him pre-31st, Rubio still has to decide about the chances of the CBA eating into his playing time next season.
Common sense
would say that maybe Rubio should sign with the Wolves, even in the face of a protracted work stoppage. It’s not like he’ll be hurting for money once the season actually starts.
Christo, the kid’s been probably playing basketball for most of his waking hours since he was an adolescent. Maybe a few months break, and some non-basketball training, along with feeling his way around the Twin Cities during the lovely late summer and fall would do him some good.
I don't do "fanshots."
I'm having flashbacks..
..to 2 years ago. All this conjecture about little known contract clauses and such. With the 40,000 talking heads ESPN employs, you’d think one of them would be able to actually do some, you know, reporting and figure this out.
I think this is a bit different...
..in that it’s not driven by the nonsensical “Donnie Walsh knows David Kahn and he’s going to end up in New York” crap, but it does have the chance to really spiral out of control. But yeah, you’d figure someone who actually gets paid to do this stuff could piece it together because it’s their…well, job.
If Kahn were to go...
Is the most likely scenario a Ronzone promotion?
Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."
All this over a twitter
by Zgoda?
My guess is Kahn mentions that there are some legal implications surrounding Rubio comint and May 31, calls it the end of one window of opportuninty, says we hope for the best, prepare for the worst, and on and on and on.
Zgoda boils it down to 140 characters that imply May 31st is Kahn’s RubioCon.
see you at Waterloo.
by WinTheLottery on May 21, 2011 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
No..
….all this over a CBA provision and the GM of a team citing it as being an important date for the player he is most associated with. Is the scenario you lay out possible as the way this thing could play out in terms of PR? Yes.
However, that has little bearing on whether or not it is actually meaningful; it would just be the way a guy like Kahn would try and present a possible big issue and/or the way it would be scribbled down by the local scribes.
Also, you know a lot more than me about the way the paper gets stories and how much is planted by various sources
So maybe you are correct that the team sees it as relevant, otherwise why would it be in the paper. But I guess why would Kahn do that? Why would he set up a deadline for himself publicly, like you are implying, when there’s every chance that the situation won’t be resolved by then? In order to soften the blow of trading Rubio after that date? I guess, but it seems like a set up for failure.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 21, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
He has a history of setting public deadlines.
He just isn’t great about holding to them once they pass.
by Airete on May 21, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
It's really the only
tangible* hope that Kahn has. Rambis is on the way out, with the only question being how persuasive Glen can be to the minority partners to get them to pony up some more dough to buy Kurt out. The same goes for getting real starters back, and/or using what little salary cap room is left to sign a free agent.
As happy as I will be to see Kahn fired, the developments mean things can only get worse for the team before they get better:
1. Kahn right now is likely (and correctly) perceived around the league as being both dumb AND desperate—the sharks sense the blood in the water, and are going to be coming at him with all kinds of cockamamie trade offers.
2. We’re back to making a coachless draft pick, and we all know how well that turns out.
3. Even if Glen was willing to spend money adding talent to the team, it would be crazy for him to do so while negotiating a buyout with his coach, giving his POBO a dreaded vote of confidence, and staring a lockout and uncertain CBA in the face.
The Rubio episodes just make it that much more confounding. I’ll say this for Glen—he’s completely incompetent, but I don’t envy his current position with regard to this team.
*And by “tangible,” I of course mean “intangible.”
I don't do "fanshots."
On a more basic note
Why the hell are we going through these contortions two years after expending a top draft choice? How long have we been put through this “will be play, won’t he play” melodrama?
I’m watching young men drafted behind Rubio and Flynn who are stepping up their games in the first and second records of the NBA playoffs, and we sit back and only imagine if…..
Dingus Kahn, it's over
records = rounds
But it’s like the Brett Favre “will he play, won’t he play” crap the Vikings fans encountered only in this case its been 2 freaking years (plus)
Dingus Kahn, it's over
This really hasn't had that many turns.
Obviously we’re all following this story, but basically what we’re looking at here is the buyout we knew was in the contract two years ago. There hasn’t been that much evolution of this story.
will the CBA cut back that much on rookie deals?
they are already quite profitable for the owners.
(Yeah, it makes no sense.)
The owners won that one, like two CBA fights ago.
The only reason we have to think the owners would go that way is that Glen Taylor mentioned it early on. Oh, and of course there’s the basic fact that rookies’ interests aren’t really represented by the union so much. That’s why the rookie scale happened to begin with.
(future) rookies
aren’t really well represented in the current NBA players association, since they’re still in college.
It’s just like the NFL (where real rookie scale reform is needed), you can sell the deal as taking money away from unproven commodities towards “proven” (i.e union members) players.
That and if you believe that you need to cut a few hundred million, you might as well do it from players who aren’t at the table.
My guess, is that they’ll be a stricter rookie scale, only 1 guaranteed year for 1st rounders and a 2 year wait period. I don’t think it’s very fair, but that’s what seems likely to happen.
Trade Rubio please
The drama around a guy who averages 5 pts, 3 ast & shoots 30% is baffling. If he has value ship him to whoever and get an asset. If he has no value in the NBA that should tell Kahn that Ricky coming to Mpls is not the magic bullet. This team the last 2 years has gone 32-132 that is ALL TIME top 5 NBA bad.
If anybody thinks Rubio will help with winning the next 2-3 years, I would have to disagree. Kahn has burned through multiple picks, expiring contracts and 24M+ in cap room to go 32-132. Kahn needs to put a team on the floor that is watchable, they don’t even play hard.
Then we agree to disagree
If anybody thinks Rubio will help with winning the next 2-3 years, I would have to disagree.
I respect your disagreement.
I have a question to ask, how can Rubio help Wolves win when on his Euro team the coach sits him the last 5 minutes of most every game? I really struggle with that. Style of play is an issue, but you take ANY game changer in the NBA put him on a Euro team and he’ll play down the stretch.
Like Brandon Jennings?
The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman
by pagingstanleyroberts on May 21, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions
The basic factual statement is not accurate here.
on his Euro team the coach sits him the last 5 minutes of most every game?
Great post, great discussion, ya'll.
The rubber really is going to meet the road on this whole saga soon, it seems. Accordingly, it is strange, particularly in this day and age, how little we really know about it. I don’t know if that’s omnious, if the Wolves are better-than-anybody at keeping a secret, or if there’s just boredom amongst the media with the ordeal.
At any rate, I don’t mean to be cynical about this, but if they do end up being forced to trade Rubio’s rights, I really hope Glen doesn’t let Kahn pull the trigger. Maybe that’s not even fair, as since Kahn’s put the entire franchise in a holding pattern for the guy, maybe he deserves the chance to at least do something with him.
But I always just think back to how stupid it was to let McHale be the guy to turn the page on the KG era. That never made sense to let the GM who, essentially, failed when he had KG be the person to dictate the course of the franchise for the next 5 years without him. Obviously Rubio’s not even in the same zip code as KG, but simply due to the gravity he’s had on the franchise for two years now, and on this regime in particular, I think whatever he becomes for the Wolves is a significant issue.
Finally, it’s funny to note that I’ve lurked around a couple SBNation sites of teams at the top of the lottery out of curiosity, and “pull a Rubio” has become a sort of lexicon describing the concern of some international prospects.
What we do know
Is that the Rubio camp told Kahn to shut up about his future. That’s a substantial change from the blabbing Kahn has made since the 2009 draft.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
Poor Planning for this Franchise
A. If you’re going to let McHale trade KG then you have to give him time on a rebuild. If McHale ends up with Curry perhaps things ends up different. The Wolves might only be a 35-40 Win Bottom Feeder, but they’re better then they are now. This was a huge mistake by Taylor
B. Kahn’s lack of ability to formulate a Basketball Philosophy going into a Coaching Search. Flynn plus Rambis equals Mess. The issue with Kahn isn’t that he took 2 PGs (This is fine if PG’s were the best players on the board). The issue was that Kahn took the wrong PG’s in regards to the System.
"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"
by Jose Cordoba on May 21, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I really wish they'd given the fo by committee at least one more year
they were hustlin hustlin. It’s not perhaps a permanent front office model, but they really worked their butts off, won a lot of trades, and actually seemed to know something about basketball. This isn’t “Kahn is a nightmare” hindsight – well, yes it’s that too, but I was a big fan of the work they did at the time.
If anything Kahn was far too able to "formulate a Basketball Philosophy."
Run With The Wolves, you know? And the system was too dogmatic, too, when it came to Rambis.
That’s a good point about allowing McHale a little more time, although it really did seem like Glen had realized that he allowed him to overstay his welcome by a year or three. Which just gets back to letting him be the one to orchestrate the trade in the first place. Either way you’re right, just a bungled job by Taylor.
(I also have a gut feeling that, at the time he decided to move on from McHale, Taylor maybe felt the Love-Mayo deal was a bad one, and coming on the heels of Roy-Foye, he said enough’s enough. But maybe that’s just me reading tea leaves wrong.)
I’m also just bitter because I have this fanciful vision that Taylor hires a GM in 2007 with a better feel for where the game was heading, and instead of drafting Corey Brewer, GM X drafts Joachim Noah; and instead of demanding Al Jefferson be the principle piece in the KG deal, GM X asks for Rondo instead.
...so long as they get a real guard
In the Tv biz...
Anchors sign contracts with other “teams” in other markets before their current contracts are finished all the time. A few Whereupons thrown in, and I don’t think it’s any problem to sign him before his season is over.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on May 21, 2011 2:11 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Let's just say...
I’d be comfortable placing $100 wager on Rubio being in a Wolves jersey to start next season.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on May 21, 2011 9:13 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
He looked good today
agressive defensively, in the mix with the assists offensively.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 21, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
This article must have passed everyone by...
It would be best if someone could provide a more accurate translation than Mr. Bing or Mr. Google. But it looks as though Rubio’s buyout to go to the NBA must be exercised within 10 days of their final ABC regular season game. It says Rubio’s reps (parents) where going to meet with the Club last Wednesday to request an extension on the buyout period. Maybe they can get an amendment that allows Ricky to sign with the Wolves by May 31st, but continue playing with FC Barcelona for the playoffs?
And if they do get that amendment, I doubt we would hear about the signing until Rubio’s run in the playoffs was finished. (remember Peeler’s extension that nobody knew about!)
That can't be right
Perhaps 10 days after the last playoff game.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 21, 2011 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t know the details of the CBA, but perhaps Rubio and the Wolves sign a contract before May 31 that has a condition in it that it only takes effect if Rubio opts out of his European contract within the opt-out period? Is such a contingent contract permitted under the CBA?
It wouldn’t surprise me if there already is such a contract, but that Kahn agreed not to say anything about it until Rubio’s season is over so they do not disrupt Rubio’s team during the playoffs.
by mnlawyer on May 21, 2011 9:45 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
This..
…is what I think the Wolves are banking on. I’ve tried to find out if this sort of contract is viable but I haven’t received any good tips up or down on the question yet.
It's a question of contracts
but my sense from the language is that “commencing the following season” suggests that such a deal is possible from the NBA end.
However, me sense from the international end is that he would not be permitted to sign a binding pro basketball contract with another league until he buys out his Barca contract, which I don’t think has happened.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on May 22, 2011 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions
This
However, my sense from the international end is that he would not be permitted to sign a binding pro basketball contract with another league until he buys out his Barca contract, which I don’t think has happened.
is exactly what I believe to be issue. Rubio has to exercise his buyot 1st before anything else comes into play.
I know someone who played, several years ago, in ACB and asked him about this contract stuff. His contract ran through June 30 each year. He said teams do a ton of negotiating late June with players and agents – especially ones they don’t want back. Lots of backroom type stuff. But his take is that there is no way Barca will allow Rubio to do anything until 7-10 days after Barca’s ACB playoff run ends.
I posted more above...
…but from what I’ve been able to tell from a few folks I talk to about this stuff (one of them used to do cap/contract related work), the May 31 clause is in the CBA specifically to provide for NBA teams to sign EL players after their EL seasons are over. The May 31 date is simply a relic of a shorter season and it doesn’t change the basic relationship between the EL team and the NBA: No matter if it is on May 29 or June 7, if Ricky Rubio tells his EL team that he is going to buyout his deal at the end of the season and start a new contract in the NBA next season, he stops getting paid by Barca the second his season is over and he starts getting paid by the Wolves when the new CBA starts up the next season. From what I can tell, this provision was to allow EL players to come to the NBA on the salary structure of the year they were drafted (or, in Rubio’s case, a few years later). Either way, Rubio signs the deal with the Wolves while also agreeing to the fact that he’s going to buyout his contract within x amount of days following the formal completion of the ACB season.
Thanks SnP
Pretty convoluted to not have the CBA language be more specific to the end of the season, rather than just a date. But I understand why the NBA would prefer to sign these guys in the salary cap year they were drafted.
And this is potential good news if Rubio can commit to us earlier than season end by just telling Barca he is exercising his option at season end.
But I am still unsure he is going to do that with the CBA negotiations show negative right now. As you said, to not be paid by Barca and not get to be paid by the Twolves until the new CBA is signed is a pretty risky thing to do right now. Let’s keep our fingers crossed.
Did you hear anything about Rubio negotiating a buyout extension with Barca? I am going to ask around today – I play golf at 1 PM with my friend in a charity event.
I mentioned this above too
But didn’t Kahn supposedly have a bunch of endorsement deals set up for Rubio to help cover the earlier higher buyout costs if he signed right away after the draft? Couldn’t this now mitigate his risk of going without a basketball paycheck for a bit?
Plus,
I understand why Rubio wouldn’t want to forego any income. But he’s still likely cleared several hundred thousand dollars after taxes, agent commissions, AND the buyout, and he’s a 20-year old who is apparently comfortable being around his parents. I think he can handle a few months without a paycheck—especially if it also allows him a short break from playing competitive basketball.
This reminds me of when David Letterman moved from NBC to CBS. He had Chris Elliott on the CBS show shortly after it started. Chris comes out, sits down, and they have this exchange:
Chris Elliott: Now Dave, I have a question for you. Your show on NBC ended in April, right?
David Letterman: Uh huh . . .
Chris Elliott: And this show on CBS started in August, correct?
David Letterman: Yes . . .
Chris Elliott: Well then, what the HELL did you for money in the meantime??!!
I don't do "fanshots."
I haven't heard anything about Rubio's side negotiating a buyout
Kahn is apparently telling everyone within earshot (including a bunch of high-end season ticket holders) that Rubio is definitely coming next year so I’d like to believe that he has secured an agreement because…well, if he hadn’t, that’s kind of problematic. If Rubio doesn’t sign by the 31st and if he doesn’t have an agreement, I think he should be fired immediately due to the number of people I have heard from who have heard the pitch. If he does sign, it will be Kahn’s best move. The guy certainly doesn’t have an in-between “average” switch.
Rambis
Snp have you heard anything more about rambis? It looks like laimbeer, theis, and wold are done. Otherwise it’s really odd them not being at draft workouts.
by rickyrubio10 on May 24, 2011 8:12 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
conflicting info
people say they think they’re gone but i don’t think anybody has been officially or unofficially informed. dunno.
Dare i say it..
Kahn is good at this portion of his job. I believe he knows the CBA inside and out. He really did pull off the Rubio contract once already but Rubio backed out. I may be chastized for saying it but we are in good hands when it comes to the CBA and working within its rules. I believe that if there is a loop hole to be used to our advantage Kahn will find it. Doesn’t mean he should be a POBO by any means.
by FunkDoobious on May 21, 2011 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Unless....
…he’s wrong about the ability of the team to enter into a contract prior to May 31 if the other player is with another team. Then he’s pretty much the opposite of good at this portion of his job. There is a line about no futures contracts and the date of the deal being effective of the time it is signed. Rubio will be under contract on the 31st with Barca. I don’t know how this part of the 31st bit works. I’d hope by now the team has received a decision from the league and from Barca about this possibility. If not, then Kahn is an even bigger incompetent than previously expected.
If I had a penny for every time I've said ...
If not, then Kahn is an even bigger incompetent than previously expected.
then I’d personally pay off Rubio’s buyout clause.
Now will you all please raise your right hand ... and place the paper bag over your head.
by Cedarpenguin on May 23, 2011 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Just for once..
….I want an average, run-of-the-mill professional running this team. I’d take back Jim Stack in charge of everything in a heartbeat.
Another scenario
is that the NBA contract is a standard contract, and the Barca contract has been “amended” to allow Rubio to finish out the playoffs.
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