SB Nation Minnesota Editor's Pick
Improving from within
It's that time of year again. Everyone has their pet idea for how to turn our horrid franchise around. Swap this mediocre asset for that mediocre asset, go all in on this overpaid veteran, open up papa Taylor's wallet and spend in free agency, swap the #2 pick for X, rights to Rubio for Y, Beasley and Pekovic for Z... There are a lot of different moves that we could hypothetically make this offseason, many of which I believe are superior to the status quo. However, this proposal is different. This proposal leads to increased wins without bringing in any additional salary commitments, or using any of our limited tradable assets. This means that it can work together with many of the myriad offseason plans outlined on this blog. Given that the Timberwolves needs are currently greater than their available cap space and tradable assets can satisfy, this kind of costless improvement is a necessary step towards success. I think there is a way to bring this team close to 30 wins next season simply by reevaluating the talent already under contract and adjusting how our key players are utilized.
After all of this fanfare, I should probably have a deep and complicated strategy for turning the Timberwolves around, but really my solution is quite simple. Slide each of Wes, Beasley, and Love down one position on the starting roster. Play Kevin Love exclusively at center, play Michael Beasley exclusively at power forward, and play Wesley Johnson exclusively at small forward. At first this seems like too simple of a solution to actually work. However, after looking over the numbers, this strategy doesn't seem to simple to work, it seems too glaringly obvious to ignore.
Love at Center:
It has been said over and over that Kevin Love is not a center. This argument pretty much begins and ends with claims about Love's physical profile. Namely, his presumed inferior athleticism and 8'10" standing reach. This argument states that Love cannot score against longer defensive centers, and that Love he allows those same players to score at will on the other end of the court.
Thankfully, we have almost 2000 minutes of Love playing center against NBA players, so we no longer need to rely on subjective impressions of Love's ability to hold the center position. Instead we have honest to goodness data over a large sample size. Let's see what that data says.
Kevin Love
|
yr |
Pos |
Min |
FGA |
eFG% |
FTA |
iFG |
Reb |
Ast |
TO |
Blk |
PF |
Pts |
PER |
|
3 |
PF |
1849.92 |
18.8 |
0.509 |
7.5 |
42% |
20.3 |
3.6 |
3 |
0.5 |
2.6 |
25.6 |
24.2 |
|
3 |
C |
708.48 |
19.1 |
0.521 |
13.6 |
48% |
20.8 |
2.8 |
2.6 |
0.5 |
2.9 |
31.2 |
29.8 |
|
2 |
PF |
1613.76 |
18 |
0.489 |
7.8 |
47% |
18.2 |
3.8 |
3.4 |
0.7 |
3.6 |
24.1 |
23.8 |
|
2 |
C |
78.72 |
19.7 |
0.286 |
5.6 |
54% |
23.1 |
3.9 |
1.1 |
0.6 |
7.9 |
14.6 |
13 |
|
1 |
PF |
826.56 |
14.5 |
0.451 |
5.4 |
56% |
16.3 |
3.1 |
3 |
1 |
4.4 |
17.2 |
17.6 |
|
1 |
C |
1180.8 |
17.3 |
0.467 |
9.6 |
63% |
17.8 |
1.2 |
2.6 |
1.4 |
5.1 |
23.8 |
22.6 |
|
car |
PF |
4290.24 |
17.67 |
0.49 |
6.17 |
0.47 |
18.74 |
3.58 |
3.15 |
0.67 |
3.32 |
23.42 |
22.78 |
|
car |
C |
1968.00 |
18.04 |
0.48 |
10.88 |
0.57 |
19.09 |
1.88 |
2.54 |
1.04 |
4.42 |
26.10 |
24.81 |
Love's Opponents
|
3 |
PF |
1849.92 |
19.7 |
0.505 |
5.2 |
31% |
10.2 |
3.4 |
2.7 |
1.4 |
6.1 |
23.8 |
16 |
|
3 |
C |
708.48 |
12.6 |
0.518 |
5.3 |
43% |
11.2 |
1.7 |
2.6 |
2.1 |
8.5 |
16.9 |
12.4 |
|
2 |
PF |
1613.76 |
19.1 |
0.516 |
4.3 |
38% |
12.4 |
2.7 |
2.4 |
1.7 |
6 |
23 |
18.9 |
|
2 |
C |
78.72 |
15.2 |
0.667 |
5.6 |
59% |
15.8 |
1.7 |
6.2 |
5.6 |
6.8 |
23.1 |
20.5 |
|
1 |
PF |
826.56 |
17.5 |
0.507 |
5.1 |
35% |
11.2 |
2.6 |
1.7 |
2 |
5.3 |
21.7 |
19.1 |
|
1 |
C |
1180.8 |
14.9 |
0.554 |
5.3 |
47% |
11.5 |
2.7 |
2.3 |
3.1 |
6.7 |
20 |
19.5 |
|
car |
PF |
4290.24 |
19.05 |
0.51 |
4.84 |
0.34 |
11.22 |
2.98 |
2.39 |
1.63 |
5.91 |
23.09 |
17.69 |
|
car |
C |
1968.00 |
14.08 |
0.55 |
5.31 |
0.46 |
11.56 |
2.30 |
2.56 |
2.84 |
7.35 |
19.01 |
16.98 |
Looking at the numbers, Love doesn't just hold his own at center, at least according to PER he is one of the best centers in the league. His net PER is an astonishing +7.83. To put that in perspective, Andrew Bogut's net PER last season was +4.8, Brook Lopez's was 2.6, Al Horford's +5.7... Looking down the list, the only player with a better net PER at center last season was Dwight Howard with his preposterous +16.4. Can you believe that just over a year ago Rambis was starting Ryan "fucking" Hollins at center instead of Kevin Love?
Not only do Love's numbers show him to be a quality center, they show that he may be an even better 5 than he is a 4. When playing center Love manages to get more rebounds and score more points than he does at power forward. In fact, last season over the course of 708.5 minutes at center, Love averaged above a 30-20 per 48 minutes. These are unheard of numbers. At the same time he maintains and even improves on his defensive ability as a power forward.
The real hidden gem in Love's "defensive" numbers is the number of personal fouls he forces on his opponents. Love's opponents average 7.35 fouls per 48 minutes when he plays center. To put that into perspective, he makes the average center nearly as foul prone as Hasheem Thabeet. Even if you are still concerned about bigger all-star centers taking advantage of Love's size (in spite of the fact that they don't based on his opponents' scoring rates), you should be reassured by the fact that they can only dominate him as long as they stay on the court. Nobody can compete with Dwight Howard, but if there is a way to beat him it is making him sit on the bench. Love has that ability like few others do.
It shouldn't be that surprising that Love performs better on both ends of the court at center. Offensively, playing center keeps Love near the basket where he can focus on his two greatest assets, collecting rebounds and free-throws. In spite of constant concerns that Love can't defend bigger centers down low, synergy sports and most fans' casual observations agree that Love is much better defending big guys in the post than he is chasing stretch 4s all over the court. The same skills that help him fight for position on rebounds help him hold his position as a post defender. Nobody should be surprised by these numbers. We need to get over our collective infatuation with prototypical body-types and look harder at relevant skill-sets and position specific production. Kevin Love is a power-forward, but he is also a center. Judging by the numbers, he may even be a center first, and a power-forward second.
While I hate to jerk around our best player, moving Love to center next season makes a ton of sense. In part because that is where he performs the best, but even more importantly because of what it allows us to do with the rest of the roster.
Beasley at Power Forward:
There was a lot of debate whether Beasley is a 3 or a 4 when he joined the Wolves before last season. Some people were convinced Beasley is a 4, while others argued that he needed to slide over to the 3 in order to reach his true potential. Last year I was in the latter camp. I saw the data showing that Beasley didn't perform well at the 3 in Miami, but was unimpressed with the numbers due to the measly 315 minutes sample size. Now that we have over 1600 minutes of Beasley playing at the small forward, I think I can safely say that I was dead wrong.
Beasley
|
yr |
Pos |
Min |
FGA |
eFG% |
FTA |
iFG |
Reb |
Ast |
TO |
Blk |
PF |
Pts |
PER |
|
3 |
SF |
1298.88 |
23.6 |
0.461 |
5.9 |
19% |
7.4 |
3.1 |
4.1 |
1 |
4.5 |
26.4 |
13.1 |
|
3 |
PF |
944.64 |
28 |
0.488 |
5.8 |
21% |
9.7 |
3.3 |
3.8 |
1.2 |
4.6 |
31.4 |
18.4 |
|
2 |
SF |
314.88 |
21.5 |
0.403 |
6.1 |
25% |
10 |
2.8 |
2.7 |
0.7 |
3.7 |
22.2 |
14.9 |
|
2 |
PF |
1968 |
21.5 |
0.473 |
4.8 |
30% |
10.3 |
1.9 |
2.7 |
1.1 |
4.7 |
24.1 |
18.9 |
|
1 |
PF |
1928.64 |
23 |
0.491 |
5.7 |
30% |
10.4 |
2 |
3 |
0.9 |
4.3 |
26.9 |
19.2 |
|
car |
SF |
1613.76 |
23.19 |
0.45 |
5.94 |
0.20 |
7.91 |
3.04 |
3.83 |
0.94 |
4.34 |
25.58 |
13.45 |
|
car |
PF |
4841.28 |
23.37 |
0.48 |
5.35 |
0.28 |
10.22 |
2.21 |
3.03 |
1.04 |
4.52 |
26.64 |
18.92 |
Beasley's Opponents
|
3 |
SF |
1298.88 |
19.7 |
0.534 |
5.4 |
24% |
7.2 |
4.6 |
1.5 |
0.9 |
3.1 |
25.5 |
19.3 |
|
3 |
PF |
944.64 |
18.2 |
0.52 |
6.2 |
35% |
9.6 |
2.4 |
2.5 |
1.5 |
3.9 |
23.8 |
17.7 |
|
2 |
SF |
314.88 |
17.9 |
0.504 |
7 |
21% |
7.6 |
2.2 |
1.8 |
0.7 |
4.5 |
23.9 |
18.8 |
|
2 |
PF |
1968 |
16 |
0.476 |
4.6 |
43% |
10.8 |
3 |
2.7 |
1.2 |
3.8 |
18.5 |
17.3 |
|
1 |
PF |
1928.64 |
16.8 |
0.501 |
6.8 |
41% |
11.9 |
2.6 |
2.2 |
1.3 |
5 |
21.9 |
19.6 |
|
car |
SF |
1613.76 |
19.35 |
0.53 |
5.71 |
0.23 |
7.28 |
4.13 |
1.56 |
0.86 |
3.37 |
25.19 |
19.20 |
|
car |
PF |
4841.28 |
16.75 |
0.49 |
5.79 |
0.41 |
11.00 |
2.72 |
2.46 |
1.30 |
4.30 |
20.89 |
18.29 |
With a net PER of -5.75, Beasley is a terrible small forward. His 45% eFG is abysmal and doesn't stop him from incessantly chucking outside shots (80% of attempts). He adds to this problem by handing out nearly 4 TOs per 48 minutes and only producing mediocre rebound and assist numbers. Meanwhile, opposing small forwards do whatever they want when Beasley "defends" them. To help you appreciate how bad Beasley's opponent PER is, Beasley's average opponent produces like Paul Pierce or Lamar Odom. Beasley has proven over 1,614 minutes of play that he does more harm than good when he plays small forward.
On the other hand, Beasley actually records a net positive PER when playing at power forward. When playing in the front-court, Beasley takes 8% more shots inside, resulting in better (though still unimpressive) efficiency. He gets more rebounds, turns the ball over less, and slightly increases his scoring rate. He still isn't great on defense, but he performs well enough to make him worth keeping on the court for the sake of his offensive production.
Michael Beasley is a power forward. Every game that we continue to force him into the small forward position hurts the future of both the Wolves and Beasley himself. This experiment is done. Move Beasley back to his true position and keep him there.
Wesley Johnson at the small forward:
I wasn't that happy with the Wolves drafting Johnson, but more due to my infatuation with DeMarcus Cousins than any disdain for what Wes showed he could do in college. Johnson was an efficient scorer at Syracuse, and was highly productive in three areas: passing, rebounding, and shot-blocking, that translate extremely well from the NCAA to the NBA (r^2=0.88, 0.0.83 and 0.93 respectively [2]). The only real knock on Johnson was his age. Johnson's "advanced age" is something that depreciates his long-term value, but is not a reason to expect such a poor translation of his collegiate skill-set into the NBA.
Much of Johnson's poor production last season can be explained by how he was used by the Wolves. At Syracuse, 55% of Johnson's shot attempts were jumpers, while 45% of his attempts came inside. With the Wolves, 89% of Johnson's shots were jumpers, while only 11%of his attempts came inside. Johnson went from an inside-outside scoring threat in college to a one-dimensional spot-up shooter int he NBA. For a guy with superior athleticism, that is simply unacceptable. Due to this role transformation, Johnson's FTA rate fell from 0.35 in college to 0.14 in the NBA (one of the 10 lowest rates in the league), and his scoring efficiency went from an impressive 60 TS% to a sub-par 49 TS%.
This change in play-style appears to be a combination of Rambis' game-planning and Wes's struggles creating at the 2. According to Synergy sports (via DX [3]) Johnson went from seeing 16.1% of his possessions on off-ball cuts (highest in NCAA among SFs) to only 4.4% with the Wolves. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that Johnson simply does not have the handles to create in isolation against shooting guards. While Johnson will likely continue to struggle creating in isolation situations against small forwards, he should at least find some match-ups he can take advantage of at the 3.
In addition to hurting his offensive production, having Wesley Johnson camp out at the 3-point line on offense and chase around 2-guards on defense has also taken a heavy toll on his ability to contribute off-ball, something he excelled at in college. Going into the season I was counting on Wes's impressive rebounding to be his saving grace as an NBA player. Unfortunately, Rambis's decision to keep Johnson out of the fray on offense has dropped his collegiate offensive rebounding rate of 2.3 per 40 down to only 1 offensive rebound every 40 minutes. Additionally, defending shooting guards forces Wes out to the perimeter on the other end of the court, limiting his 7.3 defensive rebounds per 40 in college to only 3.7 per 40 in the NBA, and his equally impressive 2.1 collegiate blocks per 40 to only 1 block per 40 with the Wolves.
Blocking and rebounding are skills that players don't simply lose. These were the skills that made Johnson a productive college player, and we need to put him in a position to use them in the NBA.
Since Johnson only played 433 minutes at SF last season, we don't have the data needed to objectively estimate the effect moving him from the 2 to the 3 will have on his production. This makes Wes the most speculative of these three positional adjustments. However, I am hopeful that a move to the 3, in addition to rethinking his role in the offense, will revitalize Wes' rebounding and blocking abilities and increase his offensive efficiency and production. We may find after moving Wes that he simply isn't a good player, but we may also find that he needed to change positions more than anyone else on the roster.
Go to the draft express article for a more thorough breakdown of just how different NBA Johnson is from NCAA Johnson.
Conclusion:
Simply moving Wes, Beasley, and Love one spot upcourt allows for a number of beneficial changes to the Timberwolves short and long-term outlook.
This move will almost certainly improve the production we get out of Michael Beasley, and may even allow Beasley to realize the potential dominance he displayed at Kansas State. The move may also have a positive effect on the development of Wesley Johnson, and at the very least won't hurt him. Finally, based on the data we have, this adjustment will only further improve the production we get from our star player Kevin Love.
In addition to increasing the production we get out of our top players, this move will also help stabilize the roster. We no longer need to throw big-money at a free agent center. Instead we can use that money to complete our starting rotation with a productive veteran 2-guard (Iggy anyone?). Additionally, sliding these three players allows us to plug Anthony Randolph into the game at one of the forward spots if and when Beasley or Wes begin to falter. Randolph is our most productive and highest upside bench player, but getting him minutes at forward has been difficult with Kevin Love in his way. In the likely event that Beasley does not warrant the contract he demands in the future, Randolph may make the ideal pairing with Love as the long-term 4/5 duo.
This is a simple cost-less move, that I have little doubt will have a positive effect on next year's record. It probably will not happen with Rambis on-board given his obsession with emulating the Lakers in form but not in function. Thankfully, Rambis may not be an issue. Kahn may be a tough sell as well, but he will likely cave to the wisdom of a quality coach. I can guarantee Adelman would make this adjustment week 1. This strategy will not save the team in and of itself, but it is an excellent place to start, and any offseason plan that doesn't start with this adjustment is unlikely to optimize its use of cap space and tradable assets.
1. 82 games (www.82games.com)
2. Basketball-statistics (http://basketball-statistics.com/howdoncaastatisticstranslatetothenba.html)
3. Draft Express (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Wesley-Johnson-1215/)
198 comments
|
15 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I love this !!!!
You’re going to have some stupid comments below the fold. You’re also going to need to have a Darko like-player for certain situations. This line-up might actually create mismatches for once. In the playoffs- OKC’s best line-ups often have Kevin Durant at the 4.
"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"
Dirk certainly liked that lineup
In the playoffs- OKC’s best line-ups often have Kevin Durant at the 4.
, said Mplax.
Excellent post, very provocative
It makes sense, but we gotta try it to see. This is a great use of stats.
One question: If this is in fact an answer, what does this do to draft planning? Is DW still a complementary pickup? I would think so, if we play him at the 3. Assuming he can defend 3s.
Another point is that if he is in fact a 4, then he is insurance against being held hostage by Beasley. He could slide in to replace Beas at 4 quite easily.
I’m sure others will bring up some counterpoints. Did Love get good numbers at the 5 because he was playing against 2nd stringers? Same with Beas at the 4?
Regardless, this is a valuable post. I hope the new coach sees it.
The way I see the offseason...
is that we ship one of #2 (D-Will) or Beasley in a trade for a productive 2-guard. I don’t really want to see D-Will and Beasley on the same team. Whichever player remains will play the 4. My bet is that both will be average power forwards next year. I prefer D-Will, just because he will be on a cheap contract longer than Beas. However, the #2 pick also has a lot more trade value than Beasley.
Love played a lot of 5 because Darko was banged up or in foul trouble quite a bit, Pekovic wasn't able to stay on the floor and Koufos wasn't very good.
Usually this is when AT came in of extended minutes. Most of us like what Tolliver did, but in reality it was largely just not sucking. Taking charges and not turning the ball over made a huge difference, but it’s not exactly an elite skill set. It’s the smart ball we should have 5 guys playing all the time.
Not Sucking...well put
Cuz that really is what AT did. He didn’t suck, and he hustled 100% of the time. And I hope we keep him to come off the bench, we need his BBIQ and work ethic to help our team. He is a VERY smart individual, and the closest to a “veteren” presence on the team.
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
I Like This Too
Beyond numbers, Love’s most difficult matchups defensively aren’t necessarily with freak athletes or skyscrapers (he’s a master at the dark arts of “sitting on the knee”), but with pure skill guys (e.g., Zach Randolph, LMA). There are probably even less of that type of player at the “5” around the league.
Nice post. I’d prefer starting AR with Love, though (as you suggest near the end should Beasley falter). That’s a lot of versatility in the frountcourt, and it seems a little more “sum better than the parts” than Love/Beasley. I’d like to see Beasley as sixth man. Can Love/AR matchup with the Lakers in a short series? I’ll file that one in the “We’ll Worry About That When We Come to It” file. I think it could be difficult for many teams, though.
I could be interested in Rubio/2GTBNL/Wester/AR/Love.
...so long as they get a real guard
Good post
As timmuggs says, it raises the question regarding who Love was playing against during his 700+ minutes at center. I just went looking through some stats looking for other players who may have been in a similar situation (not the regular center, but puts in time there). I couldn’t find any others with an opponent PER as low as 12.4 at center.
That’s not definitive, of course, since everyone situation is different. But it does give me a little confidence that the 12.4 opponent PER is at least partly a reflection of his play at the position, and not just due to him playing against a bunch of stiffs.
The thing about Love at C
is that those minutes were mostly against players that he could match up well against. I would guess at least 50% of the Centers in the league would eat Love up at that position. I just don’t see how he could play there full-time. Maybe we can use him more often against guys he can match up against, but for the time being Darko is still the only player who can defend the tall centers.
I love ping pong balls!!
Maybe, but I haven't seen any stats that make your point obviously true.
(See my giant-font table and related posts below.) But I kind of agree with you that I don’t want Love to be the full-time center. I think vjl110’s point is a little different, in that he’s saying that with our current roster we’d be best off playing Love at center. I’d like to change the roster so we don’t need to do that.
Tough..
I think that is a tough one to differentiate.
We have a few things going on here, I don’t think there is any question that love was preferentially played against easier matchups. With some of the harder matchups it seemed like rambus would like to just throw darko and pek/mask guy at them in some hackashaq strategy.
But also, I that there are two things that make these numbers somewhat believeable:
1) love’s away from the basket game wrecks big centers. They can not stop his outside game whatsoever
2) love will out-PER almost any person in head to head due to the valuation of rebounds in the PER formula.
So I think it can go either way. But the rest of the post, involving beas/wes I think is spot on. Beas needs the ball just a bit closer to the basket to keep his silly-ass from hucking up long 2’s and wes needs to be able to take 1-2 dribbles and go to the rim at least 30% of the time. (I pulled that percentage out of my ass but you know what I mean)
There is a massive dearth of good centers in the league. And even fewer that can score.
Love will get killed by guys like Bynum or Howard, but a lot of the rest of the league is either PFs playing the 5 or guys who really don’t do much on defense.
I would bet that Love would be effective at C against 20-25 of the 30 teams.
Great stuff.
I’ve been repeating myself a lot lately on this, but I’d like to see Mike Beasley setting more ball screens like he did against Houston in the season finale. With a better coach and a better point guard, he might be a lethal weapon as a pick-and-roll forward. He is very agile and smooth around the basket when he actually gets there.
With this action going on, doing our best Utah Jazz impression, I think Love spaces the floor as a perimeter center, ala Mehmet Okur. He’s becoming an excellent perimeter shooter.
With Love on the perimeter
and BEasy at 4
Would we need an oversized 3
Like DWilliams?
trade Web and Wes for a real 2 or draft Brooks?
by WinTheLottery on May 23, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
+1
If we commit to moving Beast and Love down I would be okay with picking DWill to be our 3, and DRAFT BROOKS AT 20 (yes, man-crush). In this case I think we still trade for a veteren SG (Iggy please) though.
Otherwise I would draft Kanter or trade down to take Biyombo for our C. Keep Love at 4, Beast at 3. If we can package in Wes/Webster/Darko/Pek/Flynn(yeah, right) and the 2nd pick for some useful veteren C or SG (maybe not get another pick back) do it. Still draft Brooks at 20 though, I’ve got a feeling about this kid.
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
VJ, will you be our coach?
If we can crowdsource better drafts than Kahn, you can definitely be a better coach than Rambis.
I think you have uncovered a real gem in Love’s numbers. But I don’t think Beasley at the 4 is a long-term solution and I have even less faith in Wes anywhere in the starting lineup long-term. However this is probably the best chance we have next year and will be putting players at the position they can be best at.
I’m willing to sign up for trading the #2 pick for a starting SG ala Iggy and rolling the dice with Rubio, Iggy, Wes, Bease and Love next year. But I suspect we’ll be talking about replacing Bease or Wes the following year.
Still, one brick at a time and you have rightly pointed out that Center is not our position of need. It’s where our All-Star plays.
This is “Best of CH” material. Bravo!
by Django Z on May 23, 2011 9:41 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Good post
If Love can play center I would like to see the Wolves draft Williams at two. Back-up Beas for a year and then take over. If we could get the same production on a rookie salary and not have to pay Beasley that would be nice.
p.s. One suggestion would be to include a jump in your next post. Other than that excellent work my friend.
by Achilles Fang 1 on May 23, 2011 10:22 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
I like the strategy...
of drafting Williams to learn behind Beasley while Beasley (hopefully) increases his value for a trade at the deadline. The one problem is that I think one of either Beasley or the #2 pick would be best used in a trade for a productive wing (ideally Iggy). Just keeping the pick and playing your way is the safer approach, but we just aren’t going to be very good unless we patch our gaping hole at the 2-guard.
I have a terrible time formatting these posts when I paste them in from Word. I have tried and failed to put in a break in the past and just gave up. I also need to go in and edit out a huge chunk of formatting-garble-language immediately after making a post. Not sure what my problem is.
I think you could just bring it over from Word in two chunks.
I’ve always seen a jump break automatically included when I start a FanPost. So I think you just paste the intro above the jump and the rest below it. I’ve never tried to put in a break after the fact.
by Madison Dan on May 23, 2011 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, posting stuff from word into this editor has never worked well for me in the past.
Which is too bad.
Hope you don’t mind that I inserted a jump for you and pinned it to the front.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
I don't trust 82Games for Beasely's positional Statistics
For instance, In Beasely’s 82Games.com profile, in every lineup where Anthony Tolliver is ont he floor, Tolliver is shown as a SF and Beasely is the PF. Beasely’s top 20 lineups in minutes include 4 of these combinations where Tolliver is incorrectly labeled as the SF. This accounts for 175 minutes of Beasely’s production on the 1515 minutes in the top 20 lineup. Unfortunately in 82Games I can’t see the floor combintations outiside the top 20 for each player; however, If we look at Tolliver’s page, we can see tolliver played at least 275 minutes where Beasely was a PF according to 82 Games where I would call him a SF. This is a problem for this analysis.
Tolliver, by all accounts, was probably our best role player last season. 82 Games puts him as the 3rd best simple rating on the team. Therefore, 95% of the time Beasely was on the court with Tolliver, his minutes were counted as a PF inflating his PF numbers. And during this improperly coded minutes, one of our better role players on the floor meaning Beasely’s production may have been better. I would love to readjust these numbers for these improperly coded lineups, but I don’t have th time.
The last argument I want to make is that PF is the most productive position in the NBA. Beasely’s 15.54 PER overall ranks him as the 41st best PF in the league by Hollinger’s positional PER statistics at ESPN; however, that same 15.54 PER would rank him the 13th best SF. Therefore, we should see a decrease in production when Beasely plays the SF versus the PF, at least according to PER, just based on the position itself.
There is no excusing Beasely’s defense at the SF position, he has to get better to play the position; however, if around 300 of his PF minutes with Tolliver on the floor were coded as a SF, I can’t trust these statistics.
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
by Ebomb on May 23, 2011 10:37 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
This reads terribly, as it was written in haste with a little free time
But hopefully PD can let me know if my point still stands
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
Good question
The rules behind “HIS POINT STILL STANDS!!!” is that a comment has to be followed with an immediate, and obviously true, contradiction to the original comment.
Also, littleboxes then has to follow up with “SILENCE!”
I don't do "fanshots."
That would be a fanpost
you know, it has original content
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on May 23, 2011 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
I was thinking he could quote himself
and then link to this comment section
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
oh, then a fanshot it is!
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on May 23, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Is that the same as saying...
His point stands still??
Which is kinda what happens when Flynn pounds the dribbles.
I'll vouche for that!
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 23, 2011 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Very good points as well
Still though, with how bad the season went, Rambis could’ve done more experimenting with the lineups, trying to find something we could do that would give us an advantage, instead of just doing the same thing over and over and expect different results.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on May 23, 2011 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
I have no quibble with the Kevin Love at Center argument or the Wes Johnson should be playing SF argument. I just think Beasely’s a SF long term.
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
I think Beasley is a 3 too and he can do it - unlike Derrick Williams.
Whether Beasley can do it, whether he can close out and play better perimeter defense and take advantage of matchups, is up to him.
And the coach.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on May 23, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah with the way Williams measured out
His length and body look like a 4 to me. DX compared him to Rodney Rogers as the closest phsyical profile to somone who played the 3 in the NBA. Essentially he’d be the heaviest SF to enter the draft since LeBron. I just don’t see the lateral quickness or athelticism for him to guard the 3. If you project him as a 4, those reboudning numbers still look very problemeatic…
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
I watched lengthy youtubes of both Beasley and D-Will of their college highlights.
From watching that, I concluded that D-Will is slightly longer and slightly more explosive (he finished way more alley-oops then Beasley). Derrick had lots more dunk highlights while Beas finished with layups more often then not. Beas did have more highlights where it appeared he was a man against boys—simply getting the ball and overpowering his opponent and using great touch to finish. He would would also overpower opponents to get rebounds and use his power and quickness to go around them or over them to get his shot off.
While neither took an extraordinary amount of 3’s, both hit plenty of outside shots (D-Will shot off the charts from 3 point range—but on only 74 attempts—he was 42 of 74 in his sophomore year.) Beasley, as you can see, shot .379 on 95 3 point attempts (36 of 95). D-Will was off the hook for his career in terms of PPS (1.72 Fr., 1.95 Soph) while Beas was a more than respectable 1.50 in his one year. It should be noted that Beasley took 577 field goal attempts in one year, while D-Will took 662 in two seasons, so Beasley must’ve had a much higher usage rate. Beasley did outdo Derrick in rebounds, steals and blocks, and had a slight advantage in assists. Here are the stats:
Min Pts Reb Ast TO A/T Stl Blk PF FG FT 3P PPS
2007-2008 KSU 31.5 26.2 12.4 1.2 2.9 . 40 1.3 1.6 2.6 .532 .774 .379 1.50
2009-2010 ARIZ 28.2 15.7 7.1 .7 1.9 .37 .6 .6 2.5 .574 .681 .250 1.72
2010-2011 ARIZ 30.0 19.5 8.3 1.1 2.6 .43 1.0 .7 2.8 .595 .746 .568 1.95
by Are we cursed? on May 23, 2011 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions
It should be noted that Beasley took 577 field goal attempts in one year, while D-Will took 662 in two seasons
Let’s just look at that again.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on May 23, 2011 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure how to interpret that...
on the one hand, D-Will scored more efficiently. On the other hand, Beasley was relied upon more. He put up more shots for his team’s sake and still was very efficient (.532 fg% and 1.50 PPS). He could’ve failed miserably in such a high usage rate but he managed to succeed.
by Are we cursed? on May 23, 2011 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I noticed the issue with Tolliver on 82 games...
I didn’t investigate whether it affected other players. I’m going to assume that this problem has some effect on Beasley’s numbers, I just have no idea how much of an effect. One point in defense of reading it as accurately rating Beasley as a PF, is that his PF numbers this year are very consistent with his PF numbers each of his first two years with the team (actually slightly worse).
As you note, Beasley’s jump in production from SF to PF is not as large as it seems given the PF inflation inherent in PER’s calculation. However, Beasley’s PF-specific PER is still in a class with guys like Scola and Brand. Additionally, the change in net PER is what is really important, and that is unaffected by positional inflation.
One thing you may be overlooking
Additionally, the change in net PER is what is really important, and that is unaffected by positional inflation.
This may not necessarily be true. For instance, if 82Games says Beasely is the PF and Tolliver is the SF, but Beasely is guarding the SF and Tolliver is guarding the PF, then Tolliver’s defense is being credited to Beasely and Vice Versa. If Tolliver is a decent defender, then this may make it appear that Beasely is a defender at the 4 than 3, when really it is Beasely defending the 3.
For example, I looked through every single one of Tolliver’s lineups where he is coded as the SF, and in each instance, Beasely is on the floor. Tolliver supposedly held SF to a 15.0 PER when he was on the floor, but if Beasely was actually playing SF, then Beasely was playing defense at a 15.0 clip which would be much better than Beasely’s 82games numbers suggest.
I would argue that Beasely did guard the 3 every time Tolliver was on the floor, and that that 15.0 defensive PER should be belong to Beasely for these minutes, which would indeed affect his net PER.
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
Granted that the Tolliver kerfuffle may hurt the reliability of net PER for 2011...
However, Beasley’s opposing PFs’ PER in 2011, looks pretty similar to his opposing PFs’ PER from 1,968 minutes in 2010.
I would be convinced this is a big deal, if not for the close correlation to the numbers from 2010, when Tolliver had nothing to do with Beasley’s performance.
I don't doubt that Beasely's PF numbers look reliable
What I am trying to assess is what Beasely is like as a SF since prior to this year the sample size was so small. If one sixth of Beasely’s minutes at SF were improperly labeled as a PF, and represent 300 minutes where opposing SF were held to a 15.0 PER when Beasely’s overally profile says he held SF’s to 19.3 PER, this is significant. I wish we could ask 82games to redo its calucations to see just how significant this was, but whether his PF numbers matchup with his previous statistics isn’t the information I’m personally interested in.
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
Ok, I understand where you are coming from then.
At least some of their position listings are clearly wrong. It may be worth sending 82games an email. I’m sure they have an interest in keeping their data as accurate as possible.
If I just do weighted averages
And add 300 minutes to Beasely’s SF stats with a defensive PER of 15.0 (using Tolliver’s defensive stats) and his average PF Offensive PER of 18.4, this would change his splits to the following.
1598.88 minuts at SF
Offesnive PER: 14.1
Defensive PER: 18.5
PER Differential: -4.4
This is definitely more respecable than the -6.2 PER differential that 82games lists for Beasely at SF, but its clear he has work to do, especially defensively. I am willing to give him more than 1 full season at the 3 to see how it plays it out. Next offseason, assuming he plays the SF next season as well, I may be ready to reach your conclusion if his numbers don’t change.
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
SO Tolliver sucks?
I thought he looked ok, but if you take 300 minutes of 15.0 per and replace it with BEasy’s 19, …
by WinTheLottery on May 23, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Beaseley's defensive PER at PF was 17.7
And unlike Tolliver where all his minutes at the 3 were with Beasely on the floor, the majority of Beasely’s minutes at the 4 was with Tolliver off the floor, so it’s hard to decipher what Tolliver’s opponent PER was during these 300 minutes.
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
The other thing I'd add
is that Beasley’s PER is about the only comprehensive stat metric that shows him as an above average player. Win Shares/48 and Wins Produced/48 show him as a decisively below average basketball player. The only thing propping up his PER is the fact he scores points. The other metrics don’t care as much about volume of points, but how efficiently one scores. Sooooo, in my book, I question the very criteria being used to determine Beasley’s impact as a PF vs. SF. Add that to the Tolliver kerfuffule!
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah... it doesn't seem clear from this post
but I really don’t like Beasley much. I loved Beasley in college and still think there is some (small) chance he realizes that potential if he stays at the PF. However, I would much rather see him shipped off so we can give D-Will or Adolph, who I have more hope for, a shot at the starting PF.
Just say yes
to Adolph!!
Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."
Great post, excellent work
Woulda been nice to see Rambis run that lineup out a little more last year.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on May 23, 2011 10:37 AM CDT reply actions
If you take this one step further, how about sliding Love and Beasley over, keeping Wes at the 2, drafting Williams for the 3 and adding Rubio at the PG. Makes for a very “athletic and long” starting 5.
Derrick Williams isn't a 3.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on May 23, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
You should tell him that
He thinks he is a three.
He may be getting some bad career advice.
He's listening to his agent
Guide young Derrick away from points of contact in the NBA paint. Less contact, more years. More years, more commissions.
Derrick’s a four.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on May 23, 2011 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions
That and
2 teams at the front of the draft whose best young player plays 4. I don’t have an opinion as to whether or not Williams can play 3, but it sure would do his draft stock good if teams believed he could.
Draft workouts...
will clear up a lot of questions about his potential position. More than likely, Williams will be brought in to do workouts with other top wings like Leonard, Hamilton, and Burks. GMs and coaches will get a good idea then if DW has the athleticism to be a full-time 3. Right now, I am slightly leaning towards “he’ll have mixed results at the 3.” If he indeed can be a legit full time 3, I’ll be excited to draft him. Not only does that add versatility to the lineup where we can play some serious small ball with 3 skilled PFs that can drop 20 and shoot from 3, it also makes Beas expendable if he fails to improve next year. DW also adds insurance if Love decides to walk because then you could have Beas/Randolph and DW lock down the 3-4.
Meaning
He’ll work out for the Cavs and Wolves, but not against other draft eligible players during those workouts.
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
This.
Players are skipping athletic testing and dropping out of multi-player workouts like crazy. Basically if you’re agent thinks you’re going to get picked in the lottery you refuse to work out in any environment other than an empty gym vs a folding chair.
You're probably right...
But on the other hand, if I’m DW (or his agent) and I feel that the Cavs or the Wolves would take me 1or 2 IF they were sure I could handle the SF… and they have serious doubts that I could…I’m working out. If Williams doesn’t go 1-2, then there’s a good chance he drops to #4 because Utah probably could pass him up at #3. I think DW has more to gain by working out then Irving. Irving’s going top 2 gauranteed (maybe 3 if Kahn gets cute). DW could fall a few spots or he could go #1 if he wows in the workouts. He definitely won’t get the #1 pick if he skips the workouts. Hope he doesn’t, but we’ll see…
4.5 + 4 + 3.5 =
5 + 4 + 3
ad a 2 and a 1
by WinTheLottery on May 23, 2011 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm with you (sort of)
While I agree that playing these players at their natural positions would help, I would also point out that their out-of-position statistics are against reserves. This has an obvious effect on the outcome of your analysis as the PER of opposing reserves would naturally be lower than the PER of opposing starters. Thus, you are kind of comparing apples to oranges here.
It is probably true that some second position numbers come against back-ups, but not necessarily...
For Beasley this definitely isn’t the case. In Miami he was a starter at PF and was consistently playing against starters. In the case of Love, it may be true that a lot of his 2011 minutes came against backups, although I would like to actually see a breakdown of who he was going against. However, I doubt he was only playing against backups in 2009 when he still put solid net PER as a rookie. He played more C than PF that year as we didn’t have a set center on the roster.
what about selection?
with these by position numbers, we have to worry that Love played C only against centers he was likely to do well against and not against centers he’s expected to do poorly against. Bottom line: because of selection, we could be overestimating Love’s expected performance at Center.
For example, if Love never played C against big guys (Howard, Bogut, Gasol), the fact that his numbers against other centers are good, does not suggest that he would play well against big guys. So if Love never played center against Orlando, Milwaukee, Lakers, etc,. we should suspect selection bias.
One way to ascertain whether or not this is likely to be true is to see if Love’s minutes at C seem to be distributed across opponents in a different way than his play at PF. If his center minutes show the same distribution across opponents as his PF minutes, then we are less worried about selection bias.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
by littleboxes on May 23, 2011 11:03 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I would love to see that analysis...
I’m not doing the leg-work though. I doubt we were that particular with Love’s usage in 2009, when the team didn’t have a “legit center” to throw against the big guys, and Love still put up really strong numbers for a rookie.
The selection bias in minutes is definitely a real concern for this kind of comparison, but I am not ready to assume it played that huge of a role.
exactly what i was gonna say
No way Love can guard top centers in this league…plus he would get beat down, probably affecting his numbers on the offensive end. Just no way he can control beasts such as the above mentioned…
I'm with Little Boxes and akmaymn on Love at Center
Watching the games, we know that selection bias is a big factor here. Love was simply not used as a center against the Dwight Howards, Andrew Bynums, etc., He played center against the Knicks, Rockets, and other teams without a true center.
I also think that only looking at opponent PER to judge the defense of the small lineup is problematic . A lineup with Love at 5 and Beas at 4 would offer ZERO help defense. And you need some help defense when your PG is Ridnour and your shooting guard is . . . Wayne Ellington?
we don't KNOW that selection bias is a big factor here.
It could be.
I haven't written an insightful post in years.
Well, sure, but it is likely
Unless someone remembers Love playing substantial minutes at center against Dwight Howard? Bynum? Nene? Bogut?
How did he do against perennial Hall of Famer Anderson Varejao?
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
How did he do against perennial Hall of Famer Tim Duncan?
hooray for using anecdotal data to support the conclusion you want!
by rickyp on May 23, 2011 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yep. I don't think you have the slightest clue what you're
responding to on this one. Not your fault, of course. I just don’t think you get this one.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
you're probably right :D
and by probably I mean certainly
Come on . . .
First, Darko spent the vast majority of minutes on Duncan. From my recollection, Love did play him well in very limited minutes at the 5.
Also, pointing out that Rambis used Love almost exclusively at center against teams without a true center is not “anecdotal.” It is rather an observation based on a season’s worth of games that calls into question how meaningful Love’s numbers as a center are.
Maybe I'm crazy here
But I think Love would be fine against Howard (and by “fine” I mean he’d do about like any other center would).
Love holds his position well, and he has a strong base. He’d be able to keep Howard from posting up deep in the paint, and he’d do as well as anyone keeping him off the boards. Forcing Howard to shoot hook shots is about all you can do.
On the offensive end, unless Orlando cross-matched, Love has the ability to keep Dwight out of the paint with his 3pt ability.
Dwight is one of the best players in the league. He’s going to be effective pretty much regardless of what you throw at him. I think Love would hold his own as well as anyone would. The arguments as to why he wouldn’t would be eerily similar to why some thought Love wouldn’t be a good NBA player in the first place. He’s got tools to compensate for his deficiencies.
To be clear
I don’t think Love playing Center is the best long term solution, but not because I think he’s going to get eaten alive by the Howards, Bynums, etc. I think we need someone that can protect the rim and anchor the team’s defense, which certainly is not Love’s strength.
See my post above
I did the easier thing, which was to look at opponent PERs for other players who aren’t primarily centers, but play some minutes there. I didn’t write any of it down, but I couldn’t find anyone who had an opponent PER as low as Love’s. I suppose Rambis could have done an unusually good at finding favorable match-ups for Love at center. (Cue huge belly laughs.)
by Madison Dan on May 23, 2011 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
One thing I noticed doing this comparison that I didn't comment on before...
Look how much better Love got on defense. I have heard almost nothing about his improvement on that end all year, but based at least on opponent PER, Love went from Beasley-bad defender to top-tier post defender over the summer (while playing considerably more minutes I might add).
I would caution this dip in opponent PER is a side-effect of playing next to Darko rather than Big-Al, but it is even more profound when he plays center so that explanation seems to fall flat.
While I'm guessing he did improve
I also thought this year’s team doubled (tripled?) down on the post more aggressively than ever, which helped lead to the opponents going nuts from downtown and skewing the opponent PER’s a bit in favor of the post defense.
"Love went from Beasley-bad defender to top-tier post defender"
Okay, that’s bullsh*t. It doesn’t take a degree from MIT to see that Kevin Love is white, and therefore can’t be a top-tier post defender.
I don't do "fanshots."
Chuck D Reference
gets me every time. Even if your jokey post was in response to PD’s sarcastic post. Made me larf
I see that ChuckD
is making enough money at "business" over in China to hire you as a surrogate.
"C'mon, c'mon, the club is open" - Bob Pollard
by Son of Gerald Green on May 23, 2011 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Agree
Love did get better on Defense. I remember looking at his on court/off court numbers on D and they were terrible at the All-Star break but by the end of the year, the team only gave up one extra point per 48 minutes with him on the court.
On the opponent PER point, it is important to remember that Darko was often guarding the better 4/5 on any given night (rightly or wrongly). He played the majority of minutes against Aldridge, Griffin, Bargnani, Scola etc., So I would take the 82 games opponent PER numbers with a relatively big grain of salt. But I don’t deny that when Love played the 5 against other small ball 5s, he seems to have done very well.
His rebounding improved
It’s the stat of all stats that pollutes PER. “pollutes” in a kind way if you will. It still is a huge factor in winning basketball and if Love is taking 36% of all rebounding chances on defense his opponents PER has very little chance of getting better.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on May 23, 2011 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Some numbers!
I’m sure some of these are better comparisons than others, and you may want to add some (I think I’m done with this, though). But here are some part-time centers and their opponent PER values at center.

by Madison Dan on May 23, 2011 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Wow, big font.
I wanted to make sure you could read the numbers. Mission accomplished.
by Madison Dan on May 23, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions
Extra points for big font,
but then you lose two for no decimal in David Lee’s Opp. PER.
I don't do "fanshots."
looks like
taking rebounds from your opponent reduces their PER very appreciably.
Could you imagine a Diaw-Love pairing?
It’d be a David Robinson-Tim Duncan level of interior defense.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Wow
I wonder why Ibaka’s Opp. PER at C is so high?
I don't know why it's outlandish
But he’s not a good defensive center, hence the Perkins trade. He also benefits greatly from playing with another banger who can rebound, as he’s only average at best as a rebounder. Given most lineups with Serge at center this year used Jeff Green at 4, Serge would be the only rebounding “force” on the court, so the opposing centers probably had a field day rebounding. That’s my thinking based on very few facts, so somebody might know better.
WTF
This says Boozer played 55% of his minutes at Center? What is the source for this data?
Somebody gathering this data isn’t watching enough games.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on May 23, 2011 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions
82games
There have been other discussions about them incorrectly allocating minutes by position, so I can’t say I stand by it.
Looking at the 5-man unit data, it looks like they list Boozer at C when the PF is either Deng, Gibson, or Thomas (and when Noah and Asik are on the bench).
The Myth of the Big Centers
There is no long list of 7 foot, athletic centers who will dominate Love in the post.
There is one (Howard), and maybe a few more (Bynum when he’s motivated?, Gasol when he isn’t avoiding contact?).
If the fear is that “Love will get KILLED” against 10% of the league, that doesn’t seem like a serious concern. Very good players still get beaten by the top 3 players at their position.
Team defense
The concern for me is less about containing his own guy vs. his ability to play help defense and protect the paint. I think Darko without question is the better team defensive presence. However, that isn’t enough to outweigh his weakness as an inefficient scorer and poor rebounder. So I’d still roll with a defensively inferior Love/Player X C/PF tandem if it can outproduce Love/Darko.
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Darko's blocks are significant...
…but yeah, i don’t think it makes up for his other inefficiencies.
Derrick Williams at the 5
If Love can play the 5 than why couldn’t D-Will.
Love
6’ 9" in shoes
6’11"1/4 wingspan
8’10" standing reach
265 lbs
Williams
6’8"1/2 in shoes
7’1"1/2 wingspan
9’0" standing reach
250 lbs
Williams is longer and more athletic than Love. He should have less trouble with bigger or more athletic Centers.
Because...
Williams is a mediocre rebounder at the 4 and has no record of performance at the 5. I am not saying you are wrong that Williams could be a 5. However, the fact that Love can play the 5 is in no way an argument that any player with an 8’10"+ standing reach can play center.
If you take one thing away from the post let it be that we can’t evaluate production using a tape-measure. Physical measurements are useful and interesting up until you have an actual track-record of production. Once you have that, they cease to be interesting.
by vjl110 on May 23, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
I am not sold on Love as a Center or Williams but I think Love and Williams playing together could be interesting. I think they are both power forwards but I think they could play well together as a 3 and 4 or even as a 4 and 5 in certain circumstances.
I want to trade Beasley and Randolph for Iguodala and draft Williams with the 2nd pick. I am trying to make the case that Love and Williams can play together.
I'm fully in favor of this.
To be honest, I skimmed through the numbers, but it just makes sense from an eyeball standpoint as well. Other than Darko’s blocks, its not like we were a great defensive team in the post anyway. At the very least, I don’t see how an experiment like this could hurt.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
And how do I know
your eyeballs weren’t skimming over the games?
, said Mplax.
As was kind of noted, but perhaps underplayed here,
isn’t Anthony Randolph really the person we should be looking at pairing with Love in the starting frontcourt? He has the length and mobility to hang with most 4’s and he’s a better rebounder and more efficient scorer than Beasley.
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 11:42 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree
If Beasely is truly a PF, then I would rather trade him and give Randolph our frontcourt minutes. Randolph was much more productive on both ends of the floor during his short stint here than Beasely. (Beward: Small end of season sample size).
Derrick Williams is going to Bust
Which may be a lesson wasted...
…with a new coach.
But it does show he can learn and adapt
I don't think AR has learned how we play yet...
when that happens, he will turn the ball over at historical rates.
by Are we cursed? on May 23, 2011 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Why should we beware?
That worked fine to project Darko didn’t it?
Now will you all please raise your right hand ... and place the paper bag over your head.
by Cedarpenguin on May 23, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Great post
It was a point of frustration for me all last season why they didn’t give more minutes to Love at center. More and more teams are going with shorter guys at the C so it’s certainly not unprecedented.
Rambis must have been the main driver in getting Darko here, because he seemed determined beyond reason to make him work as the starting center.
Spit balling here.
Lakers play a system where they pack the paint and force out-side shots. They just happen to have Kobe and Artest as two of their perimeter defenders. The Lakers offense is predicated on a combination of ball-movement, iso’s and low post scoring with a big capable of passing (Bynum or more often Gasol). It seems that Rambis was trying to get Darko to fill the role of low post scoring/passing threat. He might be the best we could get, but he’s not Pau Gasol. Also on the perimeter (without Kobe and Ron) packing the paint led to lots and lots of threes against us.
It’s not that it can’t work….it’s just the Wolves aren’t the Lakers and just do not have the players to pretend they are.
Yeah I think you're probably correct
Rambis took what he learned about the Lakers and tried to apply it here. I’m not sure if he didn’t recognize that the talent wasn’t here to pull that system off or if he’s one of those “the system is more important than the talent” guys. Regardless the end result wasn’t pretty.
Defense wise I think we’d be okay with a front court of Wes, AR and Love. Wes and AR should be intimidating enough to discourage excessive driving to the hole from guards and Love is physically strong enough to hold his own in the post against almost every C in the league. I’m a huge Beasley fan but his defense at either the 3 or 4 concerns me. He’s still young so hopefully it improves.
"Lakers play a system where they pack the paint and force out-side shots."
This is basically the defense Rambis brought over, too. And we saw in their series against the Mavs that even with vastly better defenders, it doesn’t work at all for the Lakers either.
Would be interesting to see
The statistic of Love getting his shot blocked while at the 5 versus the 4.
Love played the 5 often last season by default, because of Pek’s and Darko’s foul trouble. My sense is that Kevin’s biggest problem at the 5 his that he can’t defend the rim.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
Love won't be able to score inside against oppposing fives
anyway.
But numbers say he can be effective!
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on May 23, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Love's points
come off getting to the line and jumpers. Both of which would be multiplied at center. The only source of his scoring which wouldn’t benefit from being covered by a 5 is offensive rebound putbacks. Quite frankly, he can’t score in the low post against most 4’s, so I don’t care if he can’t against 5’s.
No response?
I would be interested in knowing his blocks against at the 5.
Still need a 5 to protect the rim. That is not Love.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
can we trade Iggy for Wes & Pek?
Rubio-Ridnour
Iggy-Webster-Ellington
Beasley-Iggy
Dwill-Randolph
Love-Darko
I think Beasley will get better at 3 with playing time. I dont think wes can be a offensive force in NBA (like Beasley flashes or Dwill projects), he is very good defending SG but Iggy is better anyway.
The problem with Love defense at C is that he will not intimidate other opposing players form get in to the paint. We will need protect the paint from all other players with our respective assignements.
Short answer is no, but it's close.
Right now salaries don’t match within available cap-space. It might be possible after the new CBA is resolved, but unable to determine yet. We’d have to ship out 1 more player or a higher salary player than Wes or Pekovic we’re about $476,000 ish away from making this work. Something more like Wes/Pekovic/Tolliver would make the salaries work.
Second part is Philly would have to agree and this is likely the bigger issue unless they really are just looking for a salary dump. I hesitate to believe this until we hear othewise.
THROW IN FLYNN!!!!
Would it work then? cuz then we have a deal lol
I watch this team, and i care so much, simply because i can’t not. It’s just a part of who i am..
Don't you think it's a bit much to "throw in" a potential all-star pg???
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 23, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Some Synergy Sports Stats for you, too.
From MySynergySports.com
Beasley on D:
Isolation: 16.4% of the time, 113 plays (out of 690), 0.66 PPP, ranked 40 in the NBA
P&R Ball Handler: 7.4% of the time, 51 plays, 0.75 PPP, ranked 53
Post ups: 6.1%, 41 plays, 1 PPP, ranked 236
P&R Man: 3.3%, 23 plays, 1.35 PPP
Spot- up: 48.3%, 333 plays, 1.02 PPP, ranked 239
What this tells me is that Beasley is significantly better at defending the SF spot (ISOs and P&R ball handlers) than he is at guarding the PF spot (Post ups and P&R roller) except in spot-up situations, which can be explained by Rambis’ stupid “everyone stop penetration even if it leaves your man open for a 3” defense.
by AQuintus on May 23, 2011 1:18 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
As far as playing Love at C,
I think we’d be better off continuing what we have been doing, putting our best interior defender (currently Darko) on their best big man scorer, and putting Love on the weaker of their two big men.
No one ventures to
give the stats on Kevin @ 5 and his shots blocked.
No answer yet in terms of an inability to protect the rim either.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
You are asking someone to look it up for you?
Maybe if you asked politely?
No
I don’t expect anyone to look up the stats. But if those making the case of playing Love at the 5, they need to consider all the pros and cons.
As such, these are as much rhetorical questions.
We should by now all recognize that Love has a problem with opposing height. Even at the 4 he struggles with shots-blocked-against.
And, no, he’s not going to protect the him.
Dingus Kahn, it's over
I don't think "rhetorical questions"
means what you think it means. For example, you don’t ask one and then follow up (twice!) with a demand for an answer. You don’t need to hide your Google illiteracy, Flagrant. We’ve always known.
You make it sound as if there is sort of dark conspiracy to keep Kevin Loves block/blocked numbers from you.
I am sure you can look them up yourself. in fact, let me link you to a fan-post that has the numbers for you.
http://www.canishoopus.com/2011/5/23/2185376/improving-from-within#comments
Love gets 1.04 blocks per 48 minutes when playing center. His opponents get 2.84 blocks per 48 minutes when he plays center.
for comparison.
Darko get 4 blocks per 48, while his opponents get 2.7.
How many blocks does the rim get against Darko?
I’d be curious what Love’s BA was as at C. I’d guess a little worse. I guess the optimistic part of me thinks you could put Love at the 5 with a shot-blocking 4 (think OKC with Collison/Ibaka), maybe Randolph. Of course, you’d need good coaching and rotations for that to work. Maybe Chuck Hayes could be brought on to teach Love how to dominate defensively even when you give up 5 inches on the opponent.
Good idea on Hayes!
Also get Shane Battier on contract to coach perimeter defense, and we’d do well. Even with Rambis, assuming that mgmt can put a muzzle on Rambis and chain his butt to the bench.
Maybe that is the solution Taylor is looking for. Fire all the assistants (definitely Laimbeer my old fave, after what I have heard characterwise, definitely Wohl as a reward for profoundly inept PG play). Keep Rambis on a leash for a year. Tell him that if he agrees to make no decisions — pregame, game time, in-game, clock management, roster selection, starting five — that he gets to coach for another year and take credit for the startlingly improved record. Taylor will praise him to the skies for the turnaround.
Then we hire Battier & Hayes as player/coaches in waiting, defensive specialists. We keep JB Bickerstaff for continuity, and Ronzone for his obvious talents. I don’t know about other assistants like Reggie, should they stay or should they go? Flip a coin.
Taylor could sell that to the investors, I’d wager.
Then Rambis acts the part, does post game interviews, revels in his reduced schedule where he can invite StopnPop in for private stats lessons (and Flagrant for how to ask politely for enlightenment), and he gets prepped for his new job, wherever that may be. I would never in my lifetime wish that on the Blazers, but who knows, it is a west coast locale. <<>>
Or maybe the Warriors? Naaah, I live in the Bay Area. I got it… next coach of the DisneyLand Clippers — Ku-uuu-uurt Raaaambis!!!
Wow, if I could rule the world….
Did you buy the $30 synergy package?
If not, where can I find this data. I am jealous.
Anyway, thanks for this info. I guess it doesn’t really fly in the face of what the position numbers on 82 games says. Beasley doesn’t look like he defends either position that well.
Honestly, I think Beasley could play at the 3, but there would need to be a real commitment to forcing him to play inside more. I like the idea of having him post-up opposing 3s all day long, but we just haven’t gone that direction.
Yeah, he needs a coach that will basically bench him if he doesn't make the effort
I think there were numerous occasions where they tried to get the ball to Beasley inside, but he didn’t fight hard enough for position. Instead he’d come across the lane and receive the entry pass 20-feet away from the hoop and then turn and face his opponent.
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Nope.
It’s from mysynergysports.com. They have a deal with NBA Live (EA’s basketball game) to provide it for free. It’s obviously not as extensive as the real thing, but it’s seems to be okay.
Fortunately the opponents made very few of those open threes.
Only about 15 journeyman had career nights out of 82 games, so that’s good right?
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 23, 2011 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I definately like this in stretches but not full time
Who would jump for us? It might be the type of thing like OKC (Harden) where we have someone coming off the bench who plays more minutes than a starter. I like it in stretches though. I think a great defensive center is still a must though
I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES
by running with Twolves (and scissors) on May 23, 2011 1:44 PM CDT reply actions
Along the same lines of this thread
What would have been the ideal rotation with the existing players we’ve got? Here’s mine:
C – Love
PF – Randolph
SF – Tolliver
SG – Webster
PG – Ridnour
Bench – Beasley
Bench – W. Johnson
Bench – Darko
Bench – Telfair
Slow the pace down, dump the triangle, emphasize the avoidance of fouls and open 3 -point looks.
This team approaches 30 wins.
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 1:45 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Rascal
No offense. You have good insight but you have four rotational players in the starting lineup.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 23, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Similarly, we have 12 rotational players on our roster.
Rascal’s doing the best he CAN!
I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.
However, due to our innate hipsterness, it seems that Minnesotans are now "exempt from the label": http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrismenning/the-most-hipster-state-in-the-us
by BrettAhlgren on May 23, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions
That said, I'd swap Wes and Tolliver
Because I’d still like to see Wes at the 3, and I think Tolliver is a known quantity who’s best used as energy off the bench, and his tenacity could be a good element alongside/inspiring Beasley in a second unit.
And all of that said….we need new players.
I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.
However, due to our innate hipsterness, it seems that Minnesotans are now "exempt from the label": http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrismenning/the-most-hipster-state-in-the-us
by BrettAhlgren on May 23, 2011 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, the conclusion is the same I guess
We need better players. I just think it’s a crime that Rambis could only get 17 wins out of that roster. They weren’t that bad. He just grossly misused some of the parts, some of which shouldn’t have been used at all.
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
some of which shouldn’t have been used at all
Grossly used?
I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.
However, due to our innate hipsterness, it seems that Minnesotans are now "exempt from the label": http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrismenning/the-most-hipster-state-in-the-us
by BrettAhlgren on May 23, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
TD, It's taking the roster we've got and trying to make the best of it
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions
The Wolves have one player who can score against good defense
and you’ve got him coming off the bench.
I don’t think that, with the current makeup of the roster, Mike Beasley is a bench player.
Randolph has the potential to surpass Beasley as a power forward, but right now he’s too erratic and inconsistent.
Certainly in a bubble (this heinous Timberwolves bubble specifically), Beasley's a starter
But a lot of his strengths/weaknesses are that of a 6th man: instant offense, ball dominance, little discernible defense
Jason Terry’s better than DeShawn Stevenson, but…
I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.
However, due to our innate hipsterness, it seems that Minnesotans are now "exempt from the label": http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrismenning/the-most-hipster-state-in-the-us
by BrettAhlgren on May 23, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Not if you ask DeShawn Stevenson.
Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!
Word.
I have growing concerns that being a fan of this team is making me more of a hipster than I ever intended to be.
However, due to our innate hipsterness, it seems that Minnesotans are now "exempt from the label": http://www.buzzfeed.com/chrismenning/the-most-hipster-state-in-the-us
by BrettAhlgren on May 23, 2011 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions
"he's too erratic and inconsistent"
And Beasley was the model of stability and consistency?
Love and AR both averaged about the same PPG as Beasley on a per minute basis. I happen to think AR>Beasley as a PF. I suppose you could swap out Beasley for Tolliver at SF, but I think Tolliver brings some defensive tenacity to the starting unit and Beasley brings scoring punch off the bench.
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 7:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Eh, I don't know.
To be honest, I didn’t get to see enough of AR to have a good grasp of his game. He joined the party late and Kurt barely played him. Compared to the rest of the roster, I like both Beas and AR a lot.
Not to my eyes
I prefer AR, Tolliver and Webster over the course of a season, to be the starters over Bease, Wes and Darko.
Given enough playing time I bet 2 of them would prove to be much more effective, maybe all 3.
Perhaps the just right porridge of this analysis is...
have a bench rotation that slides Love to C, Beas to PF…. and to close out games this way.
Great Post and what i would like to point out is that while you can legitimately shoot down in isolation via an eye test that this couldn’t possibly work, the significance of EVERY Player he mentioned improving their performance is simply staggering in its analysis…a fire-them-all-closing-argument for the TWolves Coaching staff in my opinion.
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on May 23, 2011 2:01 PM CDT reply actions
Absolutely
Let’s win 17 games my way instead of 35 because our center is a defensive liability in certain situations.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 23, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Without a close second, the absolute best post in a year.
I’ve been reading this crap for 1 1/2 years and this post is spot on provocative, backed by relevant statistical data, with no axe to grind. Great thing is, if you want you can move Darko for Love, Love goes to 4, Wes or Beast stay at 3 depending who’s playing well and you’ve open up a spot for a true shooter at two ( who Wes can back up if need be).
I’ll take Love on D for the offense and rebounding this front line can generate.
Throw in a stud at two (trade the pick) and this is a he’ll of an exciting offensive team.
"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain
by Tangerine dream on May 23, 2011 3:14 PM CDT reply actions
Really a great post
That said, isn’t it possible that Love’s numbers at center from this year are skewed by two factors…
1) When he plays center the guy next to him is Beasley/Tolliver/Randolph and when he plays at forward the guy next to him is Darko/Pekovic. I know a lot of these stats are supposed to be individual metrics, but it seems like many of them could be influenced by the other people who are on the floor. Love might not necessarily be better at center, that just allows the Wolves to put the most talent on the floor. If this is the case, the solution for next year isn’t to play Love at C and Beasley at PF, it’s to find a center who can lessen the talent discrepancy between our “true” centers and our forwards.
2) Love is only playing center when the matchup is favorable (i.e. he’s playing against the league’s less-talented 5s). You use the Dwight Howard analogy – when the Wolves played the Magic at the beginning of the year Milicic and Pek combined for over 31 minutes on the court, presumably guarding Howard. The numbers support your hypothesis, but I’d really like to see a list of the centers Love spent the most time matching up against.
As to point #1...
Isn’t that the point? The point isn’t that Love is better at center, but the point is the Wolves have 5 skilled players when Love is at 5. If your solution is to draft Kanter, I can’t argue with that. However, I personally feel we’d be better off drafting Derrick Williams, and playing Love at 5 with Randolph, Wes, Beasley, and Williams taking all the minutes at 3/4. Just a personal preference.
expanding on the synergy argument...
adding Rubio at PG, and if he plays up to expectations, we’re looking at a vastly different personality on this team from what we have. If he brings Defense, steady nerves and leadership on the Offensive end, he doesn’t even need to score to jumpstart this teams psyche, a damaged psyche that is maybe the elephant in the room with this group of guys…we’re losers, here we go again…remove that and we’re taking steps forward only, not one step forward two steps back.
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on May 23, 2011 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions
I much prefer Williams over Kanter
But the point I was trying to make is that Love’s superior numbers at C might not hold up if he was a center first and a power forward second, as VJ is suggesting. If we don’t make any trades/signings this offseason I would fully endorse his plan, but unless Love is really a better center than power forward we’d just be making our team worse in the long term.
In any case though, this post proves that Love can play very effectively in at least limited minutes at the 5 spot. That means that we don’t necessarily need to bring in a Gasol-type center this offseason (someone who will occupy the majority of the team’s minutes at center). Instead, bringing in someone who can start at center, bang against the opposing starter, and block 2-3 shots in 20 minutes of game action might actually help out this team a lot next season. For instance, Biyombo could have a bigger immediate impact than most of us are anticipating.
Reasonable
It seems like we’re mostly on the same page. I just feel like the information presented in the post shows it would be okay IF we moved Love to center to accommodate a good PF. In this case, Beasley. In my eyes, Williams or Randolph. I agree we need a 20 minute center on the roster, but I feel like we could build around Love as a center by bringing in an upgrade at PF, as stud PF’s are far more common than good C’s are.
Another way we might improve from within.
Over at wages of Wins there is a link to Courtside Analyst and if you follow the topics down past Kareem vrs Magic and past Defensive win score for all NBA teams by posn (we were dead last at the 1,2,3 and above average at the 4 and nearly average at the 5 by their figuring) you come to an article about coaches being accountable for defensive results. Their conclusion was that even when coaches changed players, eventually the players Defense depended on the coach. In some ways you can see this, Boozer plays better D at Chicago but Jefferson gets more blocks at Utah then at MN. Anyway, his conclusions are that players make the offense and coaches the defense. My feeling is that well it is likely partially true at least.
I read that a few days ago and found it fascinating...
The “coach effect” on defense that he finds is unbelievably strong. By “unbelievably strong”, I mean I really can’t believe it. There must be something missing in the analysis. I seriously don’t know how to deal with it.
If it is true, we need to ditch Rambis twice as fast as I already wanted to. It would be pretty awesome if a simple coaching hire could flip our terrible defense 180 degrees.
Here is a link to the article in question, for anyone that is interested.
by vjl110 on May 23, 2011 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
While I generally agree
I think he needs to look at a lot more data. For example, how do you explain Houston under Adelman going from a top 4 defensive team in 07-08 and 08-09 and then plummeting to the bottom half of the league the following two seasons? Perhaps missing Yao Ming and Ron Artest really did make a difference. The other explanation is that Adelman really isn’t a good defensive coach and their success defensively in his first couple of years was a remnant of Jeff Van Gundy’s tenure as the Houston coach. Once enough roster churn took place, they lost their edge defensively.
by Rascal Flatts on May 23, 2011 9:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Not only this post but many of the comments are really excellent in this exchange IMO.
Just how much improvement could we get by reducing our turnovers to say the League average (that too should be possible with these same players) and at the same time making a few more good passes that would improve team shooting percentages. Did we try to run to much? Some times trying to hurry causes mistakes to be made. Did we sacrifice too much to be speedy and supposedly entertaining and is there a better solution a sort of happy medium?
The point of playing Love at center seems a valid way to get some time for our other best players.
most of which are PF’s. In that 82 games by Posn please also note opponents shooting percentage. Hoop data shows the average EFG by posn and Centers shot 52 percent if my memory is correct. Loves opponents shot .518 and Darko held perhaps better average player to just 50 percent (a difference of 2 percent is significant) Since this stat doesn’t get reflected in PER or Win Score type stats I believe that Darko is not as bad as those stats indicate. If we ran our offence through someone else giving Darko just put backs and Love and others more actual designed plays what might that do?
by mr.sorbet on May 23, 2011 5:25 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Pardon me if I'm repeating someone.
Pushing Love to Center and Beasley to Power Forward won’t help nearly as much as those numbers might lead you to believe. The trouble with using that line-up is that it completely neglects team defense (something the Wolves have been doing for a while, I know). Love may hold his own against opposing Centers. Beasley may hold his own against opposing Power Forwards. But the two of them together won’t be able to protect the rim when our perimeter defenders get torched. At the 5 and 4 those two combine to average only 2 blocks per game. For all of his woes, Milicic averaged around that many blocks per game by himself, didn’t he (I admit that I haven’t looked at his numbers)? And let’s be honest, our perimeter defenders will get torched on a regular basis if next year is anything like this past year. Love is pretty darn good at drawing charges, but that’s not enough.
There’s a reason everyone has been talking about pairing Love with a shot-blocking center. All your numbers really point out is that the shot-blocker that pairs with Love doesn’t need to be a Center. Maybe Anthony Randolph can be that guy. Maybe moving Wes to small forward puts him in a better position to protect the rim as well. One way or another the team defense needs to improve; because games are not determined by how much any individual opposing player scores, but by how many points the team scores.
My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson
Exactly on all those points. All those numbers are fantastic (although I find it hard to believe that Beasley nearly split his time at SF/PF considering I didn’t see him play at PF very often, leads me to believe the numbers are putting him at PF when he should be at SF) but they don’t tell the whole story. Look at the top 4 teams in the playoffs – all have good interior defenders. It’s not about guarding the post, its about protecting the rim.
I don’t get why AR isn’t penciled in as the starting center. He’s a little skinny for center but considering all the other stuff he brings to the table for a center (shotblocking, speed, PnR defense, shooting, finishing), he can get away with it.
The argument for playing Beasley at PF still blows my mind. He has NO good PF skills except spot up shooting. He can’t post up PFs, he can’t block shots, bad rebounder, undersized, not a freak athlete. I understand what the numbers say but I don’t see Beas being good at PF unless the other team is playing smallball. Not big enough, athletic enough or tough enough.
College vs NBA rebounding
This isn’t stat-based, so I’m just throwing it out there. Mention was made of Wes’ college rebounding prowess, and we all remember Beasley’s big RB numbers. Derrick Williams is supposed to be a mediocre rebounder for a four.
I contend that, just like in high school, there are athletes who use their superior athletic ability to get rebounds. This ability obviously doesn’t translate when you move up to a pool of similar athletes. Michael Beasley is the poster boy for this. He gets half the rebounds he should get in the NBA, I contend, subjectively. I also contend that Wes is similar. Neither block out or position themselves correctly or hustle to get a rebound in the way Kevin Love does (obviously).
I watched Derrick Williams this year. The first thing I noticed when a shot went up was that he looked to block out his man. Small thing…we all learned to do that as kids. Beasley doesn’t do it. Darko sometimes, not often, does it. Wes barely does it. Sometimes, it’s the simple fundamentals that make a better team. Every rebound is an extra possession. I understand it can be shown that the Wolves rebounded well, apparently extremely well, but I watched untold possessions lost due to simple lack of fundamentals.
Tolliver has them, Love has them. Williams might have them. Very few other Wolves seem to have them. Sometimes all that is maybe needed to move things statistically is a little adherence to the basics.
This is just an hypothesis…it comes from the OP’s point about Wes Johnson being better at the SF, based on his college rebounding numbers. (I think he’d be better at SF because he can’t be worse)
You can't dust for vomit.
I see what you are saying...
there is definitely anecdotal cases that support your argument. However, people have run the numbers across all players that have played in both the NCAA and the NBA. College rebounding is highly predictive of NBA rebounding. The r^2 for rebounding NCAA to NBA is just over .83. That means if you want to predict how well player X will rebound in the NBA (relative to other players) you get 83% of the way there, just by looking at NCAA rebounding numbers. So while college rebounding doesn’t completely explain NBA rebounding, the vast majority of knowledge, skills, and physical traits that lead to successful college rebounding help just as much in the NBA.
I don't disagree with what you just wrote...
But I’m trying to explain the variance…it’s not a correlation of 1, after all.
You can't dust for vomit.
Dumb
For an example: Dallas has been at it’s best when barea and terry are on the court… So why not start them and play them 48 minutes? Because it doesn’t work that way… I hate looking at stats, sometimes you need to watch basketball and a center/pf combo of kevin love and beasley would be ridiculously embarrassing to watch. They would both be undersized and both suck at defense. There are times where putting them there in spot minutes makes sense, yes, but starting and consistent minutes? No. However, Wes at small forward I do agree with.
I would suggest spend more time watching basketball and less staring at numbers
Thanks for this.
I really don’t think there is any greater justification for my worldview than the blatant idiocy of some of the people who disagree with it.
by vjl110 on May 24, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Since there isn't an edit button, let me phrase that less offensively.
I really don’t think there is any greater justification for my worldview than the blatant idiocy of the arguments often made by people who disagree with it.
by vjl110 on May 24, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
As a statistician and intuitive "scout"
I think what “watchers” of the game see is the unexplained variance that exists. Sometimes you know what to do, but you can’t statistically explain it. Trust me, if NBA success were near 100% explainable, then among the non-stupid teams, it would all come down to luck going forward. (Injuries, etc.)
You can't dust for vomit.
This move would make us the worst defensive team in the league
Oh, Wait a second- we already are the worst defensive team in the league. In that case, go right ahead.
by All in on the 12-5 on May 24, 2011 4:03 PM CDT reply actions

by 














