Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Despite Relocation Drama, Coyotes Overcome Adversity

D-Will and B-Easy

Should the Wolves draft Derrick Williams with the second pick in the draft (if he is even available)?  If they do, there are some legitimate questions about his fit on the team and his play in relation to a certain 6'8" athletic combo forward who is already on the roster.  Oh, don't forget that the squad already has an upper-level power forward that has forced said athletic 6'8" guy to the wing.  I know this is probably something of a perception bias from a fan who follows a single team a tad closer than he follows the rest of the league, but are the Wolves the only team that consistently finds itself in situations where things that should be unmitigated successes/positives (drafting #2, for instance) come with numerous negative strings attached? 

Anywho, much more below the fold.  

Star-divide

The number one thing to remember when comparing Derrick Williams and Michael Beasley is that Beasley was able to put up his gigantic numbers as a freshman in a tougher conference and with a tougher schedule while Williams put up his monster season as a sophomore in a weaker conference with a weaker schedule.

When we look at the stat sheet from Beasley’s freshman season and compare it to Williams’ first campaign, what we see is clear: Beasley was the superior performer by a country mile. Let’s break down how much better freshman Beasley was than freshman Williams in a number of key categories:

 

  • Ortg: +5.6%
  • SoSch: +4.14%
  • %poss: -+27.86%
  • %shots: +46.91%
  • %min: +13.64
  • TS: -1.61%
  • or%: +37.11
  • TO%: even
  • blk%: +125%
  • ftrate: -41.19%
  • 2%: -5.39%
  • 3%: +51.6%
  • pts/pos: +1.65%
  • fga/pos: +17.14%
  • fta/pos: -31.03%
  • ast/pos: even
  • to/pos: -13.33%
  • fga/g: +92.31%
  • ppr: -29.31%
  • %tm reb: +45.63%
  • ws/40: +72.57

 

In 21 categories, Beasley was on top in 14 and even in 2. He carried a much, much, much heavier load (78% of team minutes compared to 68.9% for Williams;%poss: 33.5/26.2; %shots: 35.7/24.8) while turning it over the same amount (15.1%) and being the far, far superior off-the-ball producer (blocks: 5.4/2.4; or%: 13.3/9.7; %tmreb: 30/20.6).

All of this is clearly reflected in Beasley’s huge advantage in WS/40 (19.5/11.3), PER (39.3/25.4), and eff/40 (37.7/23.4). 

I know he’s had his ups and downs in the NBA and he’s something of a goofball, but it is kind of hard to overstate just how well Beasley performed as a freshman at Kansas State and just how far short of these numbers Williams fell during his freshman campaign.

As a sophomore, Williams fares a bit better. Out of the 21 measurements against a freshman Beasley, Williams comes out on top 9 times, while lowering the % difference between the freshman numbers in 8 of Beasley’s 12 winning categories. What is especially interesting about Williams' two seasons are his workload numbers. 

Williams freshman/sophomore:

 

  • %poss: 26.2/28.7
  • %shots: 24.3/24.8
  • %min: 68.9/74.1

 

None of those numbers come close to Beasley’s 33.5/35.7/78.3 line. Not only did Beasley produce superior numbers as a freshman in a better conference, but he did so while shouldering a much larger load than either of Williams’ campaigns. The question with Williams’ game is two fold: how well will two specific numbers transfer to the NBA and can he handle a larger workload?  Beasley handled a 28.3 usage rate last year.  Can Williams equal that in the pros? 

What does Williams have going for him (i.e. what are his two areas of superiority over Beasley)?

The most obvious and important thing is 3 point shooting. Williams was 42-74 from beyond the arc in his sophomore season. This production came out of nowhere, as  he was 4-16 (.250) as a freshman. Is a .568 mark from beyond the arc something to get excited about at 1.9 3pa/game? In his freshman season, B-Easy shot .379 from beyond the arc with 2.9 attempts/game. Both players made 1.1 3s/game. Beasley was 36-95 and Williams was 42-74. These six 3 pointers on 21 fewer shots account for a nice chunk of what makes a sophomore Williams look a little bit like a freshman Beasley, and are the primary cause for concern (or hope) with taking him at #2 (which is not necessarily a bad thing; rather, it is something that is out of our ability to discern with open-source stats on the interwebs). These 3 pointers (taken at a clip of 1.9 shots/game--which is not very much) account for the large difference in TS% (69-61) and they help in pts/poss (1.29-1.23). Williams was able to gather 126 points on 74 possessions with those 3 pointers (1.70 ppp). Beasley’s 3s netted K-State 108 points on 95 possessions (1.13 ppp).

The team that drafts Williams will have to hope that Williams can shoot the NBA 3 at something on the north side of %40. They will also have to bank on the idea that he will do this at the 4, because the primary threat of his entire offensive repertoire is built off of a) him being quicker than opposing 4s and b) him being a threat from outside.  Can he hit the .400 mark? Here is a list of 6'8"+ forwards who have made the .400 grade. Are 74 attempts from beyond the arc enough of a thing to get excited about?  What about a guy who shot .488 (48/90) over 2 years? How much of that will carry over to the NBA? 

The real key to how his game transfers will be his performance from mid-range. This is an area where Beasley excels. B-Easy carries a .429 efg on all jump shots and is especially effective (relative to the rest of the league) from 16-23, shooting 41% last season, 39% the year before that, and 46% in his rookie year. Beasley is a decent scorer for many of the same reasons as Williams. He is a tough match up at the 4 (although the Wolves are trying him at the 3) and he is a good enough shooter to keep larger defenders honest. While we have a fairly good idea that Williams’ bread is buttered from being a threat beyond the arc, we do not know if he has the type of mid range game to work a single dribble shot, curl, or pull up on the pick and roll to really make him a viable and efficient NBA scorer. 

Williams’ 2nd big step up on Beasley is in his ability to get to the line. The guy is a foul magnet and it shows in his large advantages in ftrate (87.1/48.4) and fta/poss (.58/.4). In his sophomore season, Williams took 8.7 trips to the line per contest. Beasley took 8.5/game but he did so with a much heavier workload. One of the questions that should be asked when looking into Williams' mid-range and perimeter games on film (or with data collection services unavailable on the intertronz) is how many FTA/FGA are from plays started beyond the arc, 16-23, 10-15, etc.  How and where does Williams draw contact?  This should be an easy thing for a pro team to figure out and the answers to these questions will go a long way in determining how effective Williams has the possibility of being at the next level. 

The big guess/gamble with Williams is this: How much of his 3 point shooting and free throw rate will he be able to transfer to the NBA and will this transfer be enough to allow him to perform at or above the levels of Mr. Beasley? If they don't transfer well, does Williams have a good enough mid-range game to allow him to still be a threat against larger defenders off of the dribble?  Also, how much of Williams’ success in playing this specific type of ball is tied to him being able to play as a power forward? His 3% is going to take a big hit in the NBA. His ability to bang on the post and gather a ton of free throws is going to take a big hit in the NBA. Will those two things take an even bigger hit with him at the 3? I think the answer to this question is yes.  We see the same things with Beasley.  The guy is built to take advantage of his handle, athleticism, quickness, and outside shooting at the 4. While he might be able to take advantage of a 3 on the post, the most tantalizing part of his game is built from the inside-out, not the other way around. One part of Williams’ in and out advantage will be seriously downgraded in the NBA: Either his outside game will give him a huge advantage at the 4 or his inside game will give him a big advantage at (against) the 3(s). Parts of each talent will bleed into one another, but I think the basic point is clear: He’s most advantageous either as a post-centric 3 or a perimeter-based 4. How many post-centric 3s do you know of?  He’s not a 3. This is especially the case with the Wolves--a team that is already saddled with the issues of playing a talented and athletic combo forward who is better suited at the 4, at the 3.

What is standing in the way of making a clear call on Williams? 

Let’s take Williams’ TS% and plug in 35% for 3 and 6 FTA/36 instead of 10.4. This puts him at a .626 TS without any sort of conversion factor for the NBA. Again, it will be very important for any team that drafts Williams to understand what his mid-range game looks like. It’s not that big of a deal for a guy of Williams’ size and athleticism to shoot between 60-70% from inside 8 feet in college. What would be a big deal is if he shoots 40% from 16 feet to the 3 point line, or if he is between 40-50% from 10-15 feet. We know B-Easy can hack it from mid-range. We do not know that about Williams and it could end up being a major impediment from him becoming even a Beasley-lite in the NBA. As mentioned above, this is something that should be very easy for the Wolves to figure out. 

The other obstacle is figuring out where his free throws come from. Are they mostly from post up attempts or are there a sizable amount from perimeter-based drives to the hoop? Guys as strong and athletic and as big as Williams at the 4 in college have a lot of built-in advantages in terms of operating in the paint and getting free throws. When Williams attacks the rim, does he do so after putting the ball on the deck from the perimeter, or is he primarily jumping towards the rim from in close?

The closest thing we have to answering these questions comes from this Luke Winn article in Sports Illustrated:

• The Wildcats loved to force opposing big men to guard Williams one-on-one outside the paint, and 12.3 percent of his offensive possessions were in isolation situations. Of players who had 50 isolation possessions on the season, Williams ranked third in the nation in efficiency, at 1.1299 points per possession. The only players ahead of him were Butler's Shelvin Mack, a 6-foot-3 combo guard, and Ohio State's David Lighty, a 6-5 wing. Williams is a 6-8 hybrid forward who could not be contained off the dribble. His ISOs resulted in free throws an amazing 29.9 percent of the time, which is by far the highest rate of any player who appeared in the top 50 in ISO efficiency.

• Williams was a better spot-up shooter than any other major-conference forward, at 1.3731 PPP. He stretched defenses, and opened up his ISO game because his shot needed to be respected from anywhere on the floor.

• He thrived as the roll man in pick-and-roll situations, too. They accounted for 11 percent of his offense, and he was more efficient than any other major-conference forward, at 1.3768 PPP.

• Williams is just as comfortable in the low post, ranking fourth among major-conference forwards in post efficiency, at 1.0645 PPP. The only players ahead of him last season were Kansas' Marcus Morris (whom Williams destroyed in a head-to-head matchup), Vanderbilt's Festus Ezeli and Cal's Harper Kamp. In post situations, Williams managed to draw fouls 37.1 percent of the time. In comparison, Ohio State's Jared Sullinger, the other first-team All-America forward, drew fouls on 21.0 percent of his post possessions. To recap: Williams was the nation's most efficient forward in ISOs, spot-ups and pick-and-rolls, and was fourth-most efficient in the post. He really can do everything -- and the fact that he didn't truly break out as a star until this past season as a sophomore suggests he may be far from hitting his ceiling. I wouldn't want to be the GM who passed on him.  

If this is the case, and if a team is serious about playing him at the 4, and if he has anything approaching a proficient mid-range game he seems like a can’t-miss style player. Him being able to get to the line off the dribble from the perimeter is a big part of this equation.  

The elephant in the room

Despite all of the virtual ink spilled here with Williams and Beasley, the big issue facing the Wolves should they draft the guy really has nothing to do with Senor Skittles. Instead, the "problem" is Kevin Love. Williams, while a better 3 point shooter who can really get to the line (the two things that give him the potential to be a much, much more efficient scorer than B-Easy), faces the same basic issues as Beasley: His entire game is built around the premise that he is too quick and with too good of a handle for PFs to handle on the perimeter and that he is too big and strong for SFs to handle in the paint. Mike Beasley isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire at the 3. If the Wolves draft Williams, they would a) have to gamble that he could play better than Beasley at the SF (and quickly, as Love isn’t going to wait around much longer) and b) that enough of his 3 point shooting and ability to get to the line will transfer to the NBA so that his overall performance eclipses that of B-Easy. The only other option is to move Love, either to the 5 or off the team.  This team is in desperate need of additional talent and I always preach BPA, BPA, BPA, but if they determine that Williams' game holds up in mid-range, and that a nice chunk of him getting to the line comes from operating off the dribble (i.e. he is the BPA), his selection will probably say more about Love's future with the team than it will Beasley's. 

Mike Beasley in a Wolves uniform is essentially what Derrick Williams would look like in the NBA without stellar 3 point shooting and a solid ability to get to the line.  The main reason why Beasley is able to be somewhat presentable at the 3 is because of his mid-range shooting. Does Williams have this ability in the event that his 3s don't fall and he can't get to the stripe? While we don’t have access to these numbers on the intertronz, they are exactly the types of data that should be readily and easily available to a professional basketball team like the Wolves. How well does Williams shoot from 16-23 feet? How many ppp does he score on the pick and roll? How many ppp does he score on a single dribble pull up? There are some fairly obvious questions that can be easily answered by any team looking to figure out just how good of a prospect Williams really is. It would be really easy to take this data, project some basic per-36 or per/possession averages and then project them into a game where he carried a higher usage rate, or where he played against a player that is more like a NBA SF, and so on and so forth. This type of analysis would take all of 10 minutes with the right data collection service. David Kahn always likes to talk about how hard the team works. It would be really interesting to see how smart they work. My guess is not very. 

Comment 223 comments  |  3 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

D-Will?

Otherwise known as a certain guard for the Nets.

Timberwolves have potentially three players at the swing 3-4 position. Anthony Randolph, Michael Beasley and the draft of Derrick Williams.

As such, they are in a powerful position to package a deal either in combination with the draft or after. NBA.TV analyst Steve Smith and others consider Derrick Williams the most NBA-ready in the draft. We don’t know his full potential yet but we have a sense on where the other two stand, good and bad.

With Kahn’s self appointed awesomely lengthy and NBA envy inducing roster, could we envision two rookies in the starting line-up: Ricky and Derrick Williams?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 13, 2011 6:37 AM CDT reply actions  

In a vacuum...

Interesting article. And I share your worries about Williams. But I also think that (1) this team is in no position to draft for need at #2 — they need to take the BPA, and (2) they shouldn’t negotiate from a position of weakness — if they trade the pick, they need to value Williams as a future all star on a good contract (although not a perennial all star, IMO).

So, do you think that Williams is not the BPA, assuming Irving is off the board? If not, who do you rate as the BPA?

If you rate Williams as the BPA, which of the rumored trade options would you put ahead of drafting Williams, assuming they are available?

I agree that if Williams is going to excel, it will be at the 4. But drafting a 4 is less of a worry for me, as I’m firmly of the opinion that baring a starting quality center falling into our laps, Love should be playing major minutes at the 5. Of course, Williams is not the ideal 4 to place next to Love, primarily because of the defensive end…. and I don’t think that Beasley is an ideal 3 to put next to Williams at the 4.

by PoundFoolish on Jun 13, 2011 6:38 AM CDT reply actions  

Right

Asset value should rule. Once you have the assets others value, many opportunities arise.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 13, 2011 6:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

FWIW

Even not knowing how Williams’ mid range game stacks up, I have him as the 2nd best college prospect in the draft. My gut tells me he’s not the BPA, however. I honestly think Biyombo is if he is under 20. I cannot say it enough: Having a low usage center who can defend is one of the most important things to have in the NBA.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 6:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo

How do you think the Euro camp showing by Biyombo might effect his draft position? I would love to get him, and agree with his value on our team, I just have a real hard time thinking about using the #2 pick on him.

by mlaust10 on Jun 13, 2011 6:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

If people are not going to draft...

…an elite shot-blocking, rebounding, defending, and team playing prospect after flubbing a few 1-on-1 drills, then they are probably the same people who wouldn’t have drafted him in the first place. He is a shoot-the-moon kind of pick. There simply aren’t that many people walking around with those types of physical gifts or who have shown his ability to block shots and rebounds at such a young age in the world’s second toughest league. The guy communicates on the floor and defends. This is exactly what the Wolves need. You can’t build a better prospect from scratch to put next to Kevin Love.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 7:04 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well..

…maybe Steph Curry (RE: building a better prospect).

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 7:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

:-(

Visit us at http://www.purplejesusdiaries.com for horrible Vikings coverage!

by PJD on Jun 13, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just not with the 2nd pick

I don’t disagree that in theory he fits well, but I can’t think of a successful top 3 pick in the last 10 years that struggled as much as BB does offensively.

I realize they are just drills, but he was essentially missing wide-open layups in them. Those are shots even the most average of high school players can hit at a reasonable rate when no one is on them.

I still think James Harden and Rubio are the dream team to build around Love, assuming we are still going with your hypothetical build a player for Love.

We should trade the 2 to LA for Gasol and ship him to OKC for Harden. :-p

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

There has to be something that can be done with the Cleveland & Detroit rumors

If the Wolves could turn 2 into 4 and 8, then you can take Biyombo and another guard (Burks?). I would take Rip back in the deal as a character guy (if he checks out there, I don’t know one way or the other) and bucket-getter. With Rubio and Biyombo, there should be enough shots to go around with Rip, Beasley and Love.

Not sure what it takes to get that done for Detroit. #20 and Flynn would be a good starting point in addition to taking on the contract.

by Punisher#8 on Jun 13, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was just talking with a buddy about who the Heat will sign for next year

Which led me to check the FA list, and one name struck me as absolutely ideal for them: Sam Dalembert.

Think he’d take a bit of a paycut to chase titles for the next 5 years? If I were Wade or Lebron I’d fly the guy out to Miami to woo him and do just about anything to get him to sign for the MLE.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Jun 13, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Very nice call.

The Haiti connection even makes Samuel feel closer to home.

by feral on Jun 13, 2011 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I see this mentioned a lot.

I don’t buy it though. With Joel Anthony around, and a similar-esque player to Dalembert, I don’t see it being an incredible likelihood Miami needs a similar player to Joel Anthony.

What Miami really needs is for LeBron James to be the superstar that many says he is.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 13, 2011 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Trading Down...

Part of my gut agrees that Biyombo might be the BPA, at least in terms of actual impact on the floor under the right coach.

If Biyombo is the pick, though, then the wolves need to move down and pick up an asset. How far down could they move and feel confident they can pick him? Scanning a few current mock drafts, I find him going anywhere from 9 to 20: 9 to Bobcats, 10 to Bucks, 11 to Golden State, 12 to Jazz, 14 to Houston, 20 to Minnesota.

Most of the trade rumors I’ve seen bringing back a pick before 9, though, seem less than ideal if the pick is Biyombo, though: McGee and Varejao would cut into minutes that I’d like to see going to Biyombo and Randolph… while DeRozen isn’t the shooter I’d like next to Rubio (especially coupled with Biyombo). If it is on the table, I would bite on Varejao… while my feelings are more mixed on the other two trades.

by PoundFoolish on Jun 13, 2011 7:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wasn't there a report that he shot like 4/25 in layup and hook shot drills? With little to no defense?

I do like Biyombo, but he is not the 2nd best player available. He might turn into to being something special but that offensive games appears to be so far away.

Chad Ford reported that the GMs he spoke with all thought he would go between 10-20, so why take him at 2?

If nothing else draft Williams and trade Bealsey for an 7-12 pick and grab Biyombo.

or if you like Beasley more do a pick 2 trade down.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Workouts do not matter

http://www.usabasketball.com/mens/hoopsummit/stats.html

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Bismack-Biyombo-5902/stats/

Larger sample sizes are always, always, always better. This should be burned into the minds of every Wolves fan by now. Watching guys do well in the NCAA tourney is not as good as watching them the whole college season. Watching a pre draft workout is not as good as watching the same player in live game action over a period of time. And so on and so forth.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Especially workouts that have no relation to what a player will do in the NBA..

Passing on Biyombo due to his performance in that absurd workout would be like passing on Kyrie Irving after he put out a terrible hip-hop video on youtube.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

So Biyombo will never shoot a layup or baby hook shot in the NBA?

You kidding me? He wasn’t even guarded, what’s going to happen when he meets even a little bit of resistance?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe once he develops those skills, but for now...

No. His offense will consist of dunking and nothing else.

The only thing that bothered me in that video was that he seemed to have trouble handling really simple passes into the post. Bad hands could be a problem.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would love...

teams to double Rubio.

Bismack did just fine as a scorer in the second best league in the world. He scored 15 points on 9.6 shots per 40 minutes. Flubbing bunnies in practice doesn’t mean much.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Double teams

on Love and Rubio would mean that there would be one defender to guard Beasley, Biyombo, and whoever is at the SG spot. I would love that.

by AQuintus on Jun 13, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yet..

…when he is guarded (as in the ACB and Nike Hoop Summit game) he does better.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I could pick out 10 8th graders at random, and they would make more layups

So a bad taco for breakfast completely throws his whole game off? And we want to draft this person pick 2?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

you never had a bad shooting day in your life?

It’s not the guys game at this point in his professional career and likely never will be. If someone want’s to not cover Biyombo and double Ricky they can be my guest. When Ricky finds some unbelievable passing angle and BB slams it home they can look at themselves with the “how the hell did that happen” look.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 13, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

One of those things about Biyombo that I notice looking at per 40 stats...

…is how good his rebounding is. That’s not entirely usual in the Spanish ACB to have nearly 12 boards per 40 minutes rebounding rate.

Not many guys playing in that league can claim that. At any age.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 13, 2011 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Take those 10 8th graders

and put them all alone on a court in front of a large group of critics and tell them that this is a job performance interview that will determine who their job status for at least the next 5 years of their life, and I bet the don’t make a single shot.

by AQuintus on Jun 13, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

You need supporting evidence.

Did anyone keep track of the various fans’ shot attempts during stoppage-of-play gimmicks this year?

by feral on Jun 13, 2011 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Got to say

With how the Wolves have used/valued workouts in the past, I’m a bit concerned that this crucial point will be lost on them.

by WolvesFan03 on Jun 13, 2011 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's probably

because he’s an 18 year old kid who has 90% of the NBA’s top decision makers watching him all alone on a big court and the nerves got to him.

by AQuintus on Jun 13, 2011 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd trade the #2 and Flynn for the #5 & DeRozan.

In a heartbeat.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 13, 2011 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

I understand, but he is still missing wide open layups

This is remedial stuff.

Let’s put this into context:

If Michael Beasley shows up and misses wide open layups he gets the “stoner not focused” card played, if Bismack Biyombo misses wide open layups….you guys praise him for his defense?

I completely agree he has the potential to be an excellent defensive player, but if he can’t hit wide-open layups in practice there is not a coach in the NBA that will put him in a meaningful game.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

The only context you need here is that he...

….played 15-30 minutes of bad YMCA warm up drills and that this should not be taken into consideration when you have ACB numbers and film at hand.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

So how does he look offensively in ACB?

Because I am under the impression it’s pretty rough stuff as well.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Like a guy..

…who could become an elite rebounder, shot blocker, and defender.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

BIYOMBOOOOOOOOOOOO

I still believe. I wouldn’t be pissed if Kahn drafted him 2nd.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 13, 2011 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'd take him at 2..

…and be done with it, but I’d also be happy with any combo of Kanter/Biyombo and Burks/Leonard….or if they took a Selby/Tyler flier with the 20th. I really hope they don’t trade the 20th pick. I think they can get a good player there.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

You don't even have to be paying attention

Just throw darts at a board and you’re likely to find a rotation player.

by shangrila on Jun 13, 2011 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately, paying no attention and throwing darts...

is probably more effective then what Kahn is likely doing at this moment, which is paying full attention to superficial details.

by Are we cursed? on Jun 13, 2011 11:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Concur

Rather than try and get cute with stuff like he normally does, I’d prefer Kahn just take Biyombo at 2 and let that be the end of it. He’ll probably try and bounce around a little bit and wind up with one of the euros, but I’m all in on Biyombo. I like that kid.

www.unleashkevinlove.com

by erikanthony on Jun 13, 2011 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

It isn't

he scored 15 points on 9.6 shots per 40 minutes

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wait a second. Did someone just describe Michael Beasley's performance in a workout?

I don’t remember thing one about Michael Beasley’s pre-draft routine, other than that ESPN did a series of movies about it.

You’re making a compare-and-contrast argument, here, with a hypothetical comparison to a player whose strengths are completely different from those of Biyombo. Beasley was meant to be an offensive machine. For him to botch layups in drills might have some sort of relationship to his role on a team, right?

by feral on Jun 13, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly.

Beasley’s job in the NBA is to make layups. If he can’t make layups, then no one would hire/ draft him for the job.

Biyombo’s job in the NBA is to play D and block shots. If he can’t make layups, who cares?

by AQuintus on Jun 13, 2011 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

On the workouts do not matter point

Still remember reports of Kwame Brown dominating Tyson Chandler in a pre-draft workout, literally Chandler could not get a shot off. Convinced the savvy GM Jordan that Kwame was the kind of player that comes along once in a decade.

"If you draft me first, I’ll never disappoint you" Kwame told him, and then did nothing but for several years with the Wizards.

I'm a very tough guy on the internet

by Son of Gerald Green on Jun 13, 2011 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

What are the usage rates of:

1. Anderson Verejao
2. Emaka Okafor
3. Marcin Gortat

Those are the three trade targets I want The Wolves to pursue. Each of them is slightly overpaid, but all of them are low-usage, defensive-minded centers. I think The Wolves could benefit greatly from any one of them.

I’d actually like The Wolves to pick DW and trade Beasley for one of those three centers.

by foobee on Jun 13, 2011 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Play them together!

1. Rubio
2. Beasley
3. Williams
4. Love
5. Darko

A good sized line up.

by Fuzzem on Jun 13, 2011 6:51 AM CDT reply actions  

Any lineup that has Darko as the starting C makes me gag a little.

by O-Train on Jun 13, 2011 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was wondering...

What this would be like…

Rubio
Wes
Beas
Williams
Love

Could something like this work?

by Rodman99 on Jun 13, 2011 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

That is a little more legit

just do what the Heat should have done all season: play the best small ball lineup ever

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 9:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was thinking the same thing.

I get that Love probably doesn’t have the size to man-up some of the bigger 5’s in the league, but I feel like this lineup has a lot of positives to it. We would out-rebound every team in the league, be able to stretch the court (in theory) with strong perimeter shooting from Wes/DWill/Love, AND we’d be able to run and gun if need be.

As always with the Wolves, defense would be pretty suspect, but this is the type of experimental lineup I would LOVE to see outta the Wolves. If for no other reason than to at least SEE if it would be a productive starting 5.

by bartikuSS on Jun 13, 2011 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

We aren't going to make the playoffs with that lineup

but I think we’d win more, and it would showcase all our players talents for a hopeful trade down the line

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Personally I'd like to see less players playing out of position than more

Not to say that Love couldn’t play 5, but I haven’t been a fan of Wes at 2 or Beas at 3, so just sliding Love to 5 to make a draft more pleasant doesn’t sit well with me. I’d rather see:

Rubio
Real SG/Webster Back Up
Wes/Beas Back Up
Love/Beas/Williams Back Up
Real C/Pek Back Up

The logjam at 4 is what sucks about this draft and filling a 2 and or 5 position by trading Beas or the second pick might make sense.

by Breaking Ankles on Jun 13, 2011 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hypothetical Question

Could the Wolves Roll quite a bit with a 4/5 Line-UP of Williams next to Love. Williams creates mismatches at the 4 (He guards stretch Bigs). Where as Love plays the 5 (Except against Andrum Bynum type-match ups. This would seem to be the only reason to have Darko on the roster. You then roll with Wes at the 3 and Super Cool Beas as a 6th Man.
FYI- Martell Webster is probably the best and only bet on the roster to start at the 2.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Jun 13, 2011 7:42 AM CDT reply actions  

I realize this works just as well with Super Cool Beas

I’m just having a hard-time seeing the notion to always run with a traditional center when it’s the Turnover Prone/Soft Rebounding Darko.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Jun 13, 2011 7:45 AM CDT reply actions  

I want Gortat!

Other than the PR-hit PHX would take in dealing Nash, this is a no-brainer move for The Suns. Nash is old and on an expiring contract. I still can’t understand how anybody would want Childress.

Nash is a one-year mentor, Gortat solves the problem at center and you still get a good player at No. 13 (Klay Thompson? Biyombo?)

by foobee on Jun 13, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bitchslap your Bismack love !!

Bismack Biyombo is not the next Serge Ibaka, he will be a bust like Hasheem Thabeet!

by markandy7 on Jun 13, 2011 7:49 AM CDT reply actions  

hasheem was soft...

BB is not…next

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 13, 2011 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Yes

Biyombo is the next Wallace.

A hard pipe hittin’ mother f**ker.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 13, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

that man loves to intimidate

anything soft goes up…it doesn’t go in. I love that. And because of his longer arms, he doesn’t have to create body contact to get the block. It allows him to look cleaner on blocks than a lot of guys (which leads to fouling out sooner as it allows refs to be a little more subjective in call/non-calls).

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 13, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like Biyombo

But agree he his more Thabeet than Ibaka. Biyombo has very little in common with Ibaka offensively.

by foobee on Jun 13, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have watched Thabeet play

and that man is just soft. He gets pushed around way too easily for a guy his size. Biyombo is a beast like that. I don’t really think there is a comparison between Thabeet and Biyombo. But neither is there one between Ibaka and Biyombo…other than they are both good defenders.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 13, 2011 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Thabeet comparison is not even possible.

You are comparing a guy who is athletically gifted and has a desire to get better (Bitchsmack) to a guy who spent three years at UConn doing the bare minimum necessary to get paid millions of dollars… simply because he’s 7’3"…and that’s about it. He’s already better than Thabeet.

I really like the Ben Wallace comparisons. Similar physique and attitude. Of course, I really only like the Ben Wallace comparison if the Wolves end up with him.

Can we make stupidity more painful?

by nodnarb on Jun 13, 2011 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not really true

While I agree that Thabeet has issues, he did get better every year while at UConn. I think his game didn’t translate primarily due to a very high center of gravity and poor b-ball IQ. The guy is very easily taken out of plays.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 13, 2011 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, glad that’s settled.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 13, 2011 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Besides both being Black, defense first,

and good shot blockers, Biyombo and Thabeet are not alike at all.

by AQuintus on Jun 13, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

you forgot to mention being from Africa...

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 13, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am going to keep saying this over and over until draft night.

Derrick Williams has one true strength as a college player, shooting efficiency. He didn’t handle the ball all that much, he doesn’t distribute, he doesn’t hold onto the ball well, he doesn’t block or steal, and he is a mediocre rebounder.
Williams was one of the best players in the NCAA last year because, and only because, he carried an extremely high college shooting efficiency.

r^2 for eFG% NCAA to NBA is 0.06. College eFG% explains 6% of the variation in NBA eFG%.
This is a BIG problem.

The only thing in which Williams clearly excels is something that historically does not translate into the NBA. Scoring in the NBA is extremely different than scoring in the NCAA. The guys that carry high eFG% in college often do not in the NBA, while some of the higher eFG% pro players never carried a strong eFG% in college.

Once you control for the fact that college eFG% doesn’t give you much more information than something like “cone drill time”, Derrick Williams is no longer a #2 pick. Instead, he looks quite similar to guys like Marcus Morris, Jamychal Green, and Terrence Jones

I am not saying Derrick Williams can’t be good. However, given the information currently available, there is no reason to believe that he will be.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 8:06 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

Or in a nutshell, reason #312 why Jonny Flynn was a terrible pick.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 13, 2011 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

low R^2

is the coefficient on college eFG% positive? How different from zero? That is, does it have ANY predictive value?

When no one knows anything, knowing what causes 6% of the variation can be important.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 13, 2011 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't run the numbers myself...

so I don’t know the confidence intervals, but the relationship is positive (r = 0.24). According to this analysis, the r^2 NCAA to NBA is 0.06 for rookies and goes up to .1 in the third NBA season.

I agree that knowing what causes 6% of the variation is better than knowing nothing, but it looks really bad when you compare it to the predictive power of other collegiate stats:
r^2 via Basketball-Statistics.com:
Rebounds per minute: 0.8312
Assists per minute: 0.8823
Steals per minute: 0.5981
Blocks per minute: 0.9327
Shooting efficiency: 0.0576

So I have more hope for Derrick Williams’ NBA shooting efficiency than say, Kawhi Leonard, but you are really playing with fire when you draft based on collegiate shooting efficiency.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting

Does this carry over to Irving as well, so far as his shooting efficiency seems to be the biggest reason for his draft stock?

by Andy G on Jun 13, 2011 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

ha...

I wasn’t going to say it, but it should absolutely hurt your opinion of Irving as well.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wow...

let’s keep quiet about that finding. Don’t want to kill everyone’s Rubio buzz already do we?

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

What about Ridnour?

He shoots well but still sucks, so I’d rather a young promising talent with low FG% anyday.

by VitaMaltWolf on Jun 13, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I tend to be less certain than othere here about Irving become an All-Star type

but who knows. I’d take him first overall in this draft and feel okay about it. Seems like a lock to be at least an average starting point guard for a long time.

by Andy G on Jun 13, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'll co-sign this

He’s going to take a huge hit on efg and fta/fga and we have no real idea of how he performs when not making layups or 3s. That’s as much as I can boil it down to. Could he be a fantastic scorer? Yes, but I’d argue that it is probably less likely than Bismack Biyombo becoming a defensive monster. Williams looks like a fantastic prospect largely because of 74 3 point shots. At the very least, he’s yet another example of why this draft should be renamed the Small Sample Size Theater Draft of 2011.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is there any sense...

Of how D-Will performs on D compared to college Beas? I still get the sense that Beas could be a relatively solid starting 3 if he played a bit more aggressively on offense, didn’t just settle for the mid-range shot, and attacked the basket more. It goes down to his motor and his concentration. He’s just very inconsistent in how locked into the game he is.

Still, I get the sense that D-Will and Beas are just built for change of pace 4s off the bench, or starting surrounded by the right talent. I would rather not use the #2 on a guy I think is best suited for an off then bench scoring role.

Now, I wonder if Miami will call about a Kevin Love for Chris Bosh trade.

by Krotz the Wall on Jun 13, 2011 8:08 AM CDT reply actions  

Dallas put the sleeper hold on that game last night on the offensive boards (well, that, and the Heat’s “pecking order” problems rearing its head at about the worst possible moment for them). I’ll say Love would’ve helped the Heat.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 13, 2011 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's what I was thinking.

You have to imagine that the Heat are going to be thinking of ways to balance things out a bit. Love, would clearly not be a #1 or #2 scoring option on that team. However, he’d bring elite rebounding on both ends of the court, legitimate 3pt range, good FT rate and percentage, good passing, and elite outlet passing to the likes of a D Wade.

Of course, I’d rather the Heat don’t trade for Love. I don’t want to see the Heat win anything.

by Krotz the Wall on Jun 13, 2011 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

At this point

isn’t Kevin Love more valuable than Bosh? Bosh’s value took a huge hit this year. And K Love can hit the three AND rebound, two obviously great skills. What else are the Heat going to throw in? A late first? I’m mostly joking, but not entirely.

by BDavige on Jun 13, 2011 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Love is definitely the better player...

and right now I think most of the league knows it.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's the "definitely" in that sentence that bothers me.

Bosh has been the best player by a country mile on a team that made the playoffs. Love has been that on 15 and 17 win teams. Obviously, his role changed a lot in Miami. I know that you know this.

by Andy G on Jun 13, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

this is the problem with team sports

it’s difficult to measure individual performance. If you put me on a 4 man swimming relay team with 3 olympians, my team will beat the team with Michael Phelps, Oprah Winfrey, Rosie O`Donnell, and Glen Beck 10 times out of 10. Am I a better swimmer than Michael Phelps? No!

That bosh was the best player on a playoff team and that Love was the best player on a non-playoff team proves little to nothing. In the above (silly) example, being on the winning team proved nothing about any individual. The success was all due to the composition of the team. Does the same truth hold in the NBA? Maybe. Team success in the NBA is more of an “interaction” than is team success in swimming, but clearly the other members of the team determine team success. We just saw proof of that in this year’s NBA finals.

But you are correct that “definitely” is a strong word to use when comparing Love and Bosh.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 13, 2011 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with you guys

Nothing is definite when comparing the two. But right now, Love has so much more going for him as a player. And he’s younger. Personally, I would rather have Love because I think he’s such a unique player the likes of which the NBA rarely sees. Not that he’s in the Lebron/Dirk range but he’s not that far below them, because of the rare, valuable skills he brings to the table.

And when you surround him with talent and a competent coach? Look at his one year at UCLA. Basketball is a team game and has many have said “our” Wolves suffer from a dearth of talent. That’s not Kevin Love’s fault and there’s only so much he can do.

You can look at stats and what Chris Bosh has accomplished (and he’s accomplished more than Love at this point), but I don’t want him on the Wolves for the simple fact that this whole South Beach thing has made him seem like Lebron and Wade’s b*tch and I don’t want to cheer for him. I like rooting against the Miami clowns and I think it’s good for the NBA that there is a Villain team back in the league.

by BDavige on Jun 13, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

Bosh and LeBron have both severely damaged their reputations as players and competitors in Miami. Wade, interestingly enough, has probably only improved his legacy as he came out looking like the best player in the NBA Finals for the second time in his career.

by Andy G on Jun 13, 2011 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

(cough)

I don’t think Wade makes it through this looking good at all. He made some really, really, really baffling plays in this series and his 3 point stance and cough were just as stupid as anything LeBron has done.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Good point re: coughs

That was ridiculously stupid.

As a player though, he absolutely showed up in these Finals and had LeBron not put together such an historic tank-job, Wade would have two rings and a second Finals MVP, right now. He was incredible for large parts of that series.

by Andy G on Jun 13, 2011 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think he "choked"...

….every bit as much as LeBron. Dribbling the ball of his foot, flubbing the inbounds pass on a last second 3 point attempt (where he dove to save it a few games ago), inexplicable turnovers, charges, being a poor facilitator, etc. He was astounding on offense for large chunks of a few games but he’s just as responsible as LeBron.

BTW: I still think LeBron performs on a level equal to Jordan as an individual player, but my god, how fragile is this guy’s mind? The post game comments about how loser fans will have to go back to their lives while he’ll still be a rich superstar…really? In a bubble much? LeBron is the ultimate product of the AAU system.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

At some point, people will start asking why Wade didn't take over

And the only responses he can go with for that are “I was deferring to LeBron” or “I couldn’t do it”. Either way, he’s screwed. He either throws his teammates under the bus, or himself.

And FWIW, every old-school coach/GM/exec I’ve seen interviewed absolutely hates the AAU program for exactly this reason. These kids are coming into the league entitled, and it makes them much more difficult to manage and coach. Look what LBJ did to the Cavaliers during his time there. The guy practically ran that team as a 19 year old, and never once thought that he was overstepping his bounds.

by Oceanary on Jun 13, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah..

…the AAU scene is diseased.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't realize how bad AAU is until reading

Charles Bock’s “For Love or Money: Youth Basketball Comes of Age” in the June issue of Harper’s. Review essay of The Undisputed Guide to Pro Basketball History by Bethlehem Shoals et al and Play their Heart’s Out by George Dohrmann.

Good read.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Jun 15, 2011 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Play their hearts out...

…is a great read. It sounds silly, but I’d draft Biyombo almost for the single reason that he’s not a product of the damn AAU system.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 15, 2011 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

BTW

I’m surprised the Dirk v. LeBron non AAU v. AAU article hasn’t come out from someone…yet.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 15, 2011 10:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Part of it..

….is that article would force us to look at those values in the first place. Criticizing LeBron is like criticizing ourselves for liking the very qualities that people, like you or I, don’t like in LeBron.

I hate the AAU basketball style which is why I have no issue with Jeremy Tyler going over-sea’s. Everything is a risk, so why not do something you want? It makes little difference.

We’re just at the point where our AAU culture makes us comfortable because we are acutely aware of it’s failings.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 16, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Will add to the ever-growing summer reading list

OJ Mayo, the next Jordan. He is not even a starter. Lance Stephenson, Born Ready. And so it goes.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Jun 16, 2011 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe LBJ choked as much as Wade

but the word I used, “tanked,” I think better described what LeBron did. He didn’t show up. Wade was awesome for the vast majority of the series. In terms of what each contributed and compared to what we expect them to contribute, LeBron was infinitely more responsible for the failure of the Heat than Wade was. The most important game of the series in my opinion was Game 2. Wade had 36/6/5, and LeBron decided it was time for him to try to run the offense down the stretch. 20-2 later, Dallas stole the game and the series. The other chance that Miami had to put this thing away was Game 4. Wade chipped in 32 points on 20 shots. LeBron mustered up 8 points on 11 shots, which is unlike anything you or I have ever seen from a player of his caliber. It’s all really confusing. I wonder what is going on in his life that can cause such dramatic swings in performance on the biggest stages. It’s not life golf or something where one nervous twitch can derail a tournament. LeBron’s game is about power which he can force on opponents almost whenever he wants. He just didn’t want it, this series. Or last year, versus Boston.

by Andy G on Jun 13, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

LeBron certainly has issues in his head

I don’t normally write/talk about mental frames of mind/issues/whatever, but it’s pretty hard to ignore with James. Dude has some serious bubble issues and they are capping his performance/game.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 13, 2011 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

This may seem like a big stretch

but I wouldn’t be very surprised if there is a gambling-related explanation for his Finals performance. It was that puzzling to me.

by Andy G on Jun 13, 2011 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

It just looked like some sort of confidence crisis to me

Eerily similar to last year. In both cases he had a game where he inexplicably played badly (and somewhat listlessly), followed by games where he just didn’t play very well, and looked like he wasn’t enjoying himself in the least. Even though he played hard, he never looked right for the rest of the series.

Last year, I chalked it up to him being distracted (and maybe even distraught) because he’d already decided to leave. Or the Delonte West thing. Or the elbow. Or some combination of the above.

This year… I have no idea. I think he’s just really fragile. I don’t want to say he can’t handle pressure, or that he isn’t clutch, because he’s thrived in those situations before. I guess he’s just prone to meltdowns in the worst situations. Seems like all the confidence and joy left his game after game 2.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 13, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Reasonable take

It bums me out a little bit though. As much as I was rooting against the Heat, and was thrilled that they lost, it’s disappointing to see someone with that much talent not put it to full use. I like to see greatness, even if I’m rooting against him at the same time. He has all the tools to be the best to ever play the game.

Maybe all this will drive him to lock himself in a gym all summer and develop a killer post game and a go-to midrange move. But I kind of doubt it.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 13, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm a little fascinated

to see how Lebron’s career will evolve as he gets older. Everything he’s done so far has been heavily based in his physical dominance. But in 3-4 years when he’s no longer the fastest, strongest, most athletic player on the court, how will he fare? It’s baffling that he hasn’t developed a post game yet. He should be able to kill opposing SFs in the post, but for whatever reason he’s remained a perimeter player. We saw how MJ’s career evolved from a highflyer to a midrange dynamo. Will LeBron have the desire to do the same? From what we’ve seen so far, I’m skeptical.

by Jerwol on Jun 13, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kobe too

Both Kobe and Jordan developed a killer mid-range turnaround that became their patented move later in their careers.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 13, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is why, as much as I dislike Kobe, I have mad respect for him

The guy worked his ass off. He had every ability to coast just like James, but he didn’t. He killed himself developing a jumper his first couple years so he could compliment Shaq, then developed an impeccable post game after Shaq left. He’s at the age where his athleticism is starting to fail him, but he can still shoot and post up with the best of them. I have a hard time seeing a 32 year old James being as effective as Kobe is right now.

by Oceanary on Jun 13, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

And he should age better!

He’s the size of Karl Malone, for crying out loud. He should be able to post people up until he’s 45 years old, but he hasn’t put that part of his game together.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 13, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is it a good or bad thing that

a 32 year old LeBron with no post game seems like an apt comparison for Derrick Williams?

by Jerwol on Jun 13, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I was thinking of his development too...

It seems difficult to fathom why he hasn’t developed a post game or midrange game. You can still almost see it when he’s gonna pull up with a ill-timed 3 (thinking of the end of the game with a 1-on-4) similar to when our own backup PG does it. If losing in the finals several times isn’t enough to get you to work on the weaknesses in your game, then I don’t know what will. Maybe a pinhole in the bubble.

by Ryno78 on Jun 13, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

You nailed the essence of LBJ SnP.

Well done sir.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 13, 2011 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1 Pops

Exactly – he was always ‘the man’ coming up – never really challenged and having to dig down deep. Jordon was cut early in his career, not sure what happened to Byrd, Magic, Cassell among others who just hate to lose and become ‘assassins’ in the crunch – Kobe has it too. I read somewhere that LeBron is more interested in becoming a billionaire and the business world and winning a NBA championship and it sure looks like that might be true. Being a champion just doesn’t seem that important to him.

by Jogger on Jun 14, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Anybody watch Lebron and Wade's joint postgame press appearance?

Lebron was clearly “deflecting” the tough questions to Wade there, as well.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 13, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

I, for one

think the Heat’s dynasty potential is a bit overrated. How many years does Wade have left as an elite player? His style of play and injury history do not bode well for him going forward. I do not think he will age gracefully at all. Besides maybe Chalmers, the Heat don’t have a single player that should be expected to improve substantially. And they don’t have any picks either. So in a couple years, they could be left with a broken-down D-Wade to go along with LeBron, Bosh, and a bunch of filler, with no way to improve. I don’t see how that’s dramatically better than what Cleveland was working with.

They’ll probably win some titles. But unless LeBron really figures it out, I don’t think they’ll be a dynasty. Too much of that depends on Wade’s health and ability to remain elite as he loses athleticism.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 13, 2011 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

wow

What if Cleveland really does get a title first? That would be insane.

Premature to suggest, of course, but kind of fun to imagine.

by dontbesomean youngfella on Jun 13, 2011 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree.

Bron was the only one getting tough questions.

Wade is teflon. Not a compliment.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jun 13, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I felt the same way

He got super defensive with those comments. People like me, who were sorta in his corner even through the decision BS, finally got to see that he really is just a choker when it matters most. He was exposed and now he feels bad.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 13, 2011 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

you maybe right

but this guy is supposed to be the best since Jordan. Jordan never choked in the finals. Kobe didn’t choke in the finals. It’s not like back in 07 when LeBron was still green and carrying a mediocre team. This team had the talent to win and LeBron is in his prime. NO EXCUSES. LeBron is just not a winner. At least not yet.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 14, 2011 1:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Love is the more valuable player

because he can play on any team in the NBA and not screw up the chemistry of the team, but Bosh is the better basketball player.

I actually commend Bosh a lot for his season on the Heat. He had such a drastic role change then what he is capable of doing, and what is used to doing. He basically had to become Kevin Love (shooting jump shots and rebounding) when for the better part of his career he was an alpha dog who created everything for his offense and did so fairly efficiently.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 13, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

That depends entirely on what you need from the player...

I think that Love would be a more valuable player to Miami than Bosh, as he would fit better in a pecking order, and provide elite level skill in areas that would play into the game of Wade and LeBron. If you needed a guy to be the alpha scorer and have some defensive presence… well, Bosh can be and has been that guy.

by Krotz the Wall on Jun 13, 2011 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Your first point could be true

but you must see some irony in a comment about Love not screwing up the chemistry of teams that have had such dreadful basketball chemistry over the course of his career. Love’s place on a competitive team, let alone a team that played in Game 6 of the NBA Finals, is pretty hypothetical at this point.

by Andy G on Jun 13, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Dwight Howard.
You have to imagine that the Heat are going to be thinking of ways to balance things out a bit.

LBJ for Dwight in a year. Pat Riley dreams large.

by feral on Jun 13, 2011 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ailuridae (aka dcv) had an interesting viewpoint on DWill vs. BEasy

http://www.mnsportsfans.com/forum/showthread.php?p=242812#post242812

Likewise it is unfair and probably wrong headed to look at Beasley and suggest that there is a high likelihood that Williams won’t be a more valuable player. Its simply not true. Of that class of players Beasley is almost certainly the worst or second worst (depending on how you view Drew Gooden) – Williams is highly likely to be better than Beasley.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Jun 13, 2011 9:45 AM CDT reply actions  

Did he leave permanently?

It’s nice to see he’s still out there making unequivocal statements on debatable subjects.

I actually miss his take on things, if not the insults and lack of intellectual humility.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 13, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think maybe the most meaningful thing in the post

Is where he says that making draft selections based on your hopes for ANY player other than Love (and maybe Rubio) is insane. Basically the “you have a 17-win team: nobody is inexpendable” argument. As much as we are tantalized by flashes from Beasley, Darko, AR, etc. It’s a compelling argument.

by dontbesomean youngfella on Jun 13, 2011 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

BPA

Incredible statistical break down here. I enjoyed reading it but it also brought up questions about our whole draft strategy and the old BPA vs. Need argument.

Taking Williams at #2 with Beasley, Randolph, Love and Wes on our roster is certainly subscribing to the BPA train of thought. I hear many people say over and over, BPA, BPA BPA! But doesn’t taking the BPA sometimes also backfire? We swung a trade for Love with no real thought about roster or position, and had to trade Jefferson for pennies on the dollar. Big Al was considered a cornerstone of this franchise for a while, and then suddenly we couldn’t wait to get rid of him, mainly because he wasn’t compatible with Love.

I cringe thinking about adding WIlliams to our stockpile of tweener forwards and needing to play even more people out of position. Perhaps Williams ends up being an effective SF, but then do we have to give away Wes and Beasley? I am one who feels Wes is a natural SF and him playing out of position at SG last year really hurt us.

If you subscribe to the BPA strategy, don’t you also have to factor in what else you can get for the pick in a trade? Passing on an established all-star type SG to bring in Williams will just put us in another Love-Jefferson dilemma down the road.

If you are set on bringing in another rookie with Rubio, why not kills two birds with one stone by trading down to grab a veteran SG and Biyombo, who in the 5-8 range would be the BPA and fill a huge need?

We're howling forever

by Fitter on Jun 13, 2011 10:20 AM CDT reply actions  

at some point you have to showcase your current talent

is their appropriate role to ever get decent trade value for them. You can’t do that if you can’t trot out a single decent lineup (which williams really exacerbates, IMO). I just don’t think his career prospects are that much better than a lot of other guys in this draft to make him a clear cut BPA. I think there is a lot of slop in this talent pool that COULD make it, but you just don’t have a lot of info to go on.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 13, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree

The way we utilized/developed Flynn, Wes, AR and Beasley last year didn’t do much for their potential trade value, if we are in the asset collecting game. Adding Williams as the BPA in a weak draft doesn’t make much sense to me in terms of picking a direction and going with it. Kahn already admitted that his “collect a bunch of talent at the wing and let them duke it out in practice” strategy failed.

We're howling forever

by Fitter on Jun 13, 2011 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not sure this is exactly true:

We swung a trade for Love with no real thought about roster or position, and -had to trade- ended up trading Jefferson for pennies on the dollar (i.e., cap space).

by feral on Jun 13, 2011 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Even BPA only goes so far, really

When you’ve got three good players at one position, including an All Star and DWill’s clone, what good does drafting another one do? At best, you’re into the realm of stockpiling assets for a trade, but remember who’s in charge. Assets being managed by David Kahn do not have the same value as assets being managed by….well, a competent GM.

The Wolves are in an extreme circumstance right now, being top tier at PF and teh sux everywhere else. It’s not like we’re ok here, ok there, a little shaky there. This is we’re better than 90% of the NBA at one position, and worse than 100% of it at the other four. It just doesn’t make sense to add to what’s already an overwhelming strength when there are critical weaknesses that could be addressed instead. Usually teams that win 17 games aren’t in positions to be drafting for need. But usually teams that win 17 games also don’t have a 20-10 all star on their roster. Usually 17 win teams are live the Cavaliers, where they need help at every position. We’re bizarrely different. We absolutely do not need help at PF.

Just another example of the perfect storm of suck the Wolves have turned into. This team defies all conventional wisdom.

by Oceanary on Jun 13, 2011 10:25 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

The Minnesota Timberwolves. Bizarrely Different.

A Perfect Storm of Suck might be hard to sell as a tag line.

We ARE bizarrely different. How many franchises can say they had a top 20 player of the modern era and got knocked out of the playoffs in the first round SEVEN TIMES IN A ROW?!

How many years can we go this time having an all-star PF and no team around him?

We're howling forever

by Fitter on Jun 13, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Love at Center

How successful a team can we be with Love playing Center. My gut tells me we could be quite successful. It would enable us to put our 5 best players on the court for most of the game. It would cause match up problems for the other team. The only problem defensively would be post up situations for love. I don’t believe there would be any offensive or defense rebounding problems given Loves skills in those areas. Seemingly, a good defensive coach could cover up for the Post Up situations with double teams and good rotations. I would like to hear some expert opinions on this. Thanks.

by johncolson on Jun 13, 2011 10:37 AM CDT reply actions  

If our only choice is to draft Williams at 2, then I agree

But we have choices, seems like several of them, to trade the pick. I’d do that (BWDIK?)

by timmuggs on Jun 13, 2011 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Love would be fine at center against most teams.

In that cases where he’d be over-matched, you can replace him with Darko, Randolph, Pekovic and perhaps Biyombo. On those nights, you play him at PF and reduce the minutes for Beasley and DW.

I think this could work well for The Wolves, though I consider it unlikely.

by foobee on Jun 13, 2011 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I definitely agree with this...

if by BPA someone means, “maximize the value of your draft slot” as in, trade the #2 if other teams truly value D-Will that high, then I agree with adhering to BPA. If by BPA someone means “take the consensus #2 no matter the fit”, then I am strongly opposed.

You maximize the value of your slot. That either means acquiring that value through trade, or selecting the player that will improve your team the most.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree and agree

The idea of BPA is silly if you don’t know who the BP is going to be. And history has shown us that a selection at #2 is just about as likely to land you the BP as selecting somewhere down the line. This is all just speculation and it takes years to determine who the real NBA studs are going to be. Even after a few years in the league, we often don’t know which young players will reach that elite status. I think the scouting and statistical analysis have gotten better, but it’s still a crap shoot for the most part.

We're howling forever

by Fitter on Jun 13, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

DeMarcus Cousins, for example.

Not every team valued him highly. There were several teams that seemed to, though. Wes Johnson at #4 left value on the table, whether you even thought DMC was the “BPA” or not.

by feral on Jun 13, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Shooting percentages in college do matter.

They just almost always drop down against stronger competition especially for rookies in the PROs. Take your own numbers Vjil. and you see that those who shot in the 60 percent range in college shot in the 50pct range in the NBA. Those who shot 50 percent in college were the ones who shot in the 40+ range in the NBA.
I would also take exception to the big 12 being a far better conference statement as any kind of justification for not taking Williams. The Pac ten has produced many talented NBA players recently and along with UCLA , Arizona has been one of the best. Again, the question is why so far has Beasleys outstanding college performance not translated? Is it because he just relied on power and athleticism in college and has no desire or ability to do more? Was just getting to the NBA and becoming a millionaire enough? Or is it because he was Stymied in Miami by drugs and playing time and here by injury and changes. He has 3 years under his belt. I would like to see both William and Beasley here in the hopes that one shows all star potential because I don’t see it in any one else save Valenciunas and that only with about three years.

by mr.sorbet on Jun 13, 2011 11:14 AM CDT reply actions  

....
Shooting percentages in college do matter. They just almost always drop down against stronger competition especially for rookies in the PROs. Take your own numbers Vjil. and you see that those who shot in the 60 percent range in college shot in the 50pct range in the NBA. Those who shot 50 percent in college were the ones who shot in the 40+ range in the NBA.

This may be true with the examples I gave, but it isn’t in aggregate. That is why I only presented those anecdotes to supplement the r^2 value, which is actually drawn from analyzing ALL players that go NCAA to NBA. The r^2 value of .06 doesn’t mean that players necessarily get a lot worse at shooting efficiency going to the NBA, it simply means that their NBA eFG% has very little to do with their NCAA eFG%. Plenty of players have almost the same eFG% NCAA to NBA, while other are actually more efficient in the NBA.

Players are generally less efficient in the NBA than they were in college, but that is a separate issue from the fact that NCAA eFG% doesn’t tell you much about where different players will fall on that lower distribution.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Beasley's Attitude

The thing all of these stats don’t measure is the mental part of the game. There’s a reason we got Beasley for nothing. The guy spends most of his time on the bench ogling women or worse yet, entertaining himself by watching Crunch scare kids with a spider attached to a fishing pole. He does this even when the rest of his team is in a huddle with Rambis drawing up the next play. Unless they can get his ADD figured out, I have a feeling he’s going to be a cancer on this team. Others can comment better than I can about Williams’ mental make-up. But I gotta believe it’s better than what I’ve seen from Beasley.

by saucyml on Jun 13, 2011 11:15 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

's

college game.

(accidental early submission)

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe because...

…The college game is ridiculously easier when compared to the NBA?

by Grover M on Jun 13, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Isn't that true for everyone?

Beasley was one of the best college basketball players in memory, and he is far from that in the NBA.

There are three ways this makes sense: 1. He began a lunkhead after entering the NBA; 2. The NBA is particularly hard on lunkheads; 3. His game didn’t transfer for some reason other than lunkheadedness.

by vjl110 on Jun 13, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

So #2 is an option!

I really do not know why Beasley is not awesome at this level, but we know he isn’t. To me, it is just possible that in college it came easy for him and he could coast on his innate athleticism and whatnot, but in the pros that just didn’t work out.

But, yes, there could be other factors and I really do not know his work ethic in either college or the pros.

by Grover M on Jun 13, 2011 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think Beas cares enough

He wanted to live the party life of college longer than he was able to. I remember him saying back in his second year that he wished he would have stayed in college and that basketball is “just a job and not fun anymore”. This guy needed 3-4 years of college but he took the money. When you take the money you gotta grow up and be PROFESSIONAL. That’s what he’s paid for and he doesn’t get that yet, in my opinion.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 13, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Glenn Robinson seems like an apt comparison

He had a HUGE sophomore year at Purdue (30 and 10!), but was never able to really be a big difference maker in the NBA. On paper, it’s the same issue as Beasley really…..Not enough free throw attempts.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 13, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

This

Seems very plausible to me but I hope that I am wrong,

by ArchAngel79 on Jun 14, 2011 1:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Frank Martin

He may have had something to do with stifling any antics. My son was a freshman at KSU the year Beasley attended and Beasley did not have any problems on or off the court. I think many of his current “issues” are more related to immaturity than anything else. I hope that he can eventually figure things out – some people do, others don’t. I watched nearly all of his college games and he is a remarkable talent.

by skin5lv on Jun 13, 2011 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good Question vjl110

Was it something that didn’t start Until Miami? Was it just that in college he was just better athletically? That his goal was just to get to the NBA and then celebrate? As a teacher I have seen high school kids change and become students can that still happen? All we can say is that so far Beasley has not been as relatively good as he should be. Rebounds and steals have not translated well.

by mr.sorbet on Jun 13, 2011 11:40 AM CDT reply actions  

Mentality Measurement

saucy- I agree that it can’t really be measured. But you would think at this point, GM’s do try to measure it. And if so how do they do it and what do they use to predict it? I am very curious if they do personality tests like a DISC profile or do they do just an interview/eye test and say, “I have a good feeling about Jonny Flynn”

"You got alotta Flubber, but I love you brother!"
When Stanley Roberts dunked on Luc Longley and the Wolves defeated the Bulls for the first time. (1997-1998)

by kevinharlan on Jun 13, 2011 11:43 AM CDT reply actions  

I think Beasley...

… needed to buy into Rambis’s system earlier on in the season and 110%. He said himself that not only him but the team did not all buy in.

If Beasley can come in more comfertable with the system and embrace the point forward role he has said hes going to work on, I can see his assist rate going up and his turnover rate going down.

I also believe with Ricky helping Beasley create some easy offense his PPG, eFG% and TS% will go up.

So more assists and more scoring at a higher level of efficiency and less turnovers. If that happens not only will Beasley playing the 3 work well but he may put up all-star type numbers and now that Melo is out of the picture making the all-star game could be within reach. (if we can win some games)

Authentic frontier Gibberish

by FunkDoobious on Jun 13, 2011 11:49 AM CDT reply actions  

Being a point forward was never the problem

It was getting to the free throw line.

Hopefully, by working on his handles then he should improve in that area.

by shangrila on Jun 13, 2011 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would think it is part of the reason for the interviews.

For that matter, we could be talking about Darko here as well, everyone says he has the Physical ability too. Do you need to become a student of the game? Break down your opponents and be able to translate that into your game plan instantly? If so, that would be important to know about that ability in a player.

by mr.sorbet on Jun 13, 2011 11:50 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

That's another point.

Curious about the comment that "not everyone bought into Rambis’ system right away. I wish he could have elaborated on that but probably couldn’t right?

by mr.sorbet on Jun 13, 2011 11:54 AM CDT reply actions  

My thought is...

..we turned the ball over alot because the system is so new and then the players think to themselves…

“self its not you its the stupid system”(flynn for exp)

Once a player comes to this conclusion they will continue to regress.

I think it safe to say that if you believe in the Triangle it can work at a very high level but it takes years for players to learn it and lets face it most of either have no patience or ran out a long time ago.

I for one am willing to keep Rambis, He may be the coach that got away someday. He rally does know the game of basketball. I also believe with Ricky on the roster he now has the right player to run a more “showtime” type offense.

Authentic frontier Gibberish

by FunkDoobious on Jun 13, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice Article

It amazes me how much attention the 4th best power forward on a 17 win team continues to get – or a below-replacement-level small forward if you prefer. Potential is such a seductive thing. I know better and I’m still a sucker for it too.

Even without drafting Williams, Beasley doesn’t start for the Wolves if I’m coach (AR does, pending a real small forward joining the team). SnP hits the nail on the head at the end when he says the real issue is Love vs Williams. If Williams was going to be a top-flight 4 in the NBA, you would almost have to move Love if he brings back a rookie-scale all-star caliber wing. I say this as one of the biggest Love fans around. Williams doesn’t look like he’s anything close that however, and I would only draft him at 2 in order to flip him for value.

by rickyp on Jun 13, 2011 12:00 PM CDT reply actions  

I feel this has been an area of weakness for Kahn.

He is supposed to be the smart man (and I think he is) but he seems to have overlooked this aspect too much. One of my worries about Flynn was that his twitters were always about being cool. Never about Basketball it seemed.

by mr.sorbet on Jun 13, 2011 12:04 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree, Flynn tweets like a 16 yr old little girl at a Bieber concert

GROW UP! tweet about practice or what you want to add to your game. His lack of profesionalism shows on the court and also brings his intelligence into question. After year he had you would think he would be working on his image and his game.

Authentic frontier Gibberish

by FunkDoobious on Jun 13, 2011 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it all hinges on Williams as a three.

IMO you have to see him play the three for awhile and see if he can do it. I don’t buy the " he’s to big " because size can be as much an advantage as disadvantage. Then,trade him to someone who needs a four if it doesn’t work. In many ways I can see a team that has Two types of players at every posn. One for speed and one for size. The stars get the most time, but the role players get to play more against the right “Fit”. when you are deep at a posn a good coach should understand matchups like that. Did Rambis ever talk about that much? AR is an interesting option in that regard I agree..

by mr.sorbet on Jun 13, 2011 12:19 PM CDT reply actions  

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 13, 2011 1:11 PM CDT reply actions  

Where is this image from?

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Jun 13, 2011 5:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Google search found it on something called insidehoops.com. I think it’s the work of a creative poster.

.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 13, 2011 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Would be pretty wild

If he suited up wearing 23 for the Cavs. Wonder if the Cavs will ever retire that number?

by mn nole on Jun 13, 2011 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Along these lines...

Williams is scheduled to work out for Cleveland Tuesday.

Go Derrick!

Interesting note in that article, though, is it’s unclear if he’ll work out for any other teams.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 13, 2011 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

If the 2 is giving us this much of a headache...

Imagine the discussions we’d have if we had the 1 pick.

by YoLeo on Jun 13, 2011 2:13 PM CDT reply actions  

That'd actually be pretty easy

Kyrie Irving. I think very few people would argue that

by Oceanary on Jun 13, 2011 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Tell Kahn that

Considering his job practically rested on getting Rubio here and how we spent 2 years waiting and he surprisingly agreed to come, we’d essentially have to deal him or Irving. I’m not saying that I think Rubio will be better than Irving, but you know our FO. It’s never that easy.

PS: <3 Oceanary, glad to see you here

by YoLeo on Jun 13, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

How many Duke games did you watch?

I ask because while both were small sample sizes, in his first stint Irving ran the point and absolutely killed it. When he came back from injury in the tournament he continued to kill it, but he played off the ball and let N. Smith run the point. Given Rubio’s size I think we could have a very legitimate backcourt of Rubio/Irving where Rubio runs the point on offense and guards the SG on defense.

by zebano on Jun 14, 2011 7:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

The #2 should be easy too...

Tell every team we’re taking Derrick Williams no matter what…best trade offer for him will be taken…fight amongst yourselves

by LosAngelesTWolf on Jun 13, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

lack of consensus

I’ve never seen this much lack of consensus among Pups fans going into a draft – the opinions are equally strong in all areas, and many folks (including me) keep going back and forth on what the Pups should do, and who they should target.

My latest preference is to trade #2 for a vet SG like Iggy or DeRozan plus a top pick, and get Jonas V. It seems like Jonas V. might have the defensive potential of Biyomobo, a strong motor, plus offensive skills.

by pae808 on Jun 13, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

I really like what I’ve seen from Jonas though the fanshot of him withdrawing from the draft due to buyout issues are troubling (anyone know if there is any substance to that?). I actually want to trade down or trade our flotsam for picks in the 4-11 range because I see little distinction between most of that group and would be happy picking 2-3 of:

Valanciunas, Vesely, Burks, Leonard, Biyombo, K. Thompson (who I’ve come around on lately).

I’m not a fan of: D. Williams, Kemba, Fredette, Knight, Kanter.

by zebano on Jun 14, 2011 7:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rubio
Monta
Wes
Super Cool
Love

AR could come in for anyone but Rubio.

by And 1 on Jun 13, 2011 2:36 PM CDT via mobile reply actions  

To be fair no team in the league has 5 elite defenders. The Mavs sometimes plays Barea Kidd Terry Marion and Dirk. Marion being the best defender Kidd plays good d but not the quickest. With a good coach like the bulls’ who is up and yelling all game it could work. Team Defense can compensate for others short comings.

by And 1 on Jun 13, 2011 2:51 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Agree

Philly was the 7th ranked defense starting Spencer Hawes and Jodie Meeks. How about Memphis with Gasol and Randolph, two guys previously derided for poor defense? A coach can make a huge impact. You do need a couple of good-to-great defenders though to be top 10.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 13, 2011 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that a coach can make a big difference on team D, however, the Mavs usually had either Tyson Chandler or Haywood anchoring their D. Beasley and Love at the 4 and 5 would be Love/Big Al paint protection 2.0, which let guards go unfettered to the rim at will.

by pae808 on Jun 13, 2011 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

It was our guards that let opposing guards go unfettered to the rim at will

We’d have been a .500 team with competent nba guards. It’s impossible to overstate how bad our backcourts have been in the Rambis era. They make Foye/McCants look competent. Love & Big Al had enough troubles of their own without having to play 2 on 5 on defense.

by rickyp on Jun 13, 2011 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Three ball domininant

players (Rubio, Monta, and Beasley) and no defense. That team wouldn’t be very good.

by AQuintus on Jun 13, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dario and Ridnour

Could it get any worse. Stats show Love is a better C than PF

by And 1 on Jun 13, 2011 6:20 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think Rubio and Ellis is doable and perhaps synergystic.

I think Ellis and Beasley is a disaster. I also think Beasley and Love in the paint is a disaster. Love can guard a post up center, but there is no help defense at all in the lane and not enough rebounding.

by dropstep on Jun 14, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Random Item

Both Mirotic and Davis Bertans are staying in the draft. Chad Ford just tweeted that there is a very strong chance that Mirotic goes to OKC and Bertans goes to San Antonio.

In other words, if those two teams like those players, we ought to pick one of them at No. 20. I vote Mirotic.

by foobee on Jun 13, 2011 4:18 PM CDT reply actions  

Mirotic is a real talent

And the Wolves probably should take him at 20 if they keep a lottery pick.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 13, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

i said that on a post some time ago but

mirotic won’t play in the nba in the next 3 years for sure, and probably 4. if you kahn can deal with that after the ricky rubio affair and he keeps the 2nd pick, there won’t be a better talent at 20 than the spaniard in that spot. probably okc pulls the trigger as most scouts think, but it’s a loooooong-term solution, that’s for sure, lol

by kuntraidor on Jun 13, 2011 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure about Kahn

but I don’t think I can deal with it.

by dropstep on Jun 14, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

We take Williams, and then...

Look for the best trade option.
I’ve been waffling on all the rumors/hypotheticals put out there.
Ideally, I’d want Biyombo/SG/future pick, with us sending out a package of leftovers.
Might not be realistic to expect all those things.

I’m starting to think the best option is to trade down, grab Biyombo and an unprotected 2012 pick.
My question is…
Which team is the best McHale-like sucker that thinks they are just a player or two from the playoffs, but they are really going nowhere/going down?
Toronto?
Detroit?
Those would be my first two choices to help cushion Clippergedon.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Jun 13, 2011 8:52 PM CDT reply actions  

If we like Biyombo at 2,

do we want to risk trading down and having someone jump in and grab him?

by Biff Cooper on Jun 14, 2011 9:25 AM CDT reply actions  

I like Val at 2

though BB would be acceptable. I think that one of them will be available at 6 and BB potentially even lower. The Piston’s seem to be giving Biyombo the most serious look.

by zebano on Jun 14, 2011 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

No

You take Biyombo at 2 and roll with it.

www.unleashkevinlove.com

by erikanthony on Jun 15, 2011 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Canis Hoopus is straight T-Wolves straight from Minnesota.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Rubio_wolfrider_small
2011/2012 Rookie Review
Abby_s_030_small
Top Ten Reasons David Kahn is a Better Basketball Mind than Sam Presti
Rubio_wolfrider_small
Ricky Rubio: Probably not as good as you think...
Small
Around the League: Atlanta Hawks

Recent FanPosts

Rubio_wolfrider_small
PA100 Atlantic Division
Small
End of Dan Harmon - Community
New_look_primary_logo_1989-96_100_small
Jae Crowder participated in NJ combine...
Small
Possible that Perry Jones = Paul George?
Small
Evan Fournier
557415_10101880206283470_13960869_76835255_1401292386_n_small
Poll: Do the NBA playoffs live up to their potential?
Rubio_wolfrider_small
PA100 Northwest Division

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Canis Hoopus Twitter

    follow me on Twitter

    Hoopus Features

    HOOPUS FAQ

    Salary Cap Info

    Draft Info

    Player Movement Flow Charts

    Draft Boards

    Former Tag Lines:

    • In desperate need of an epic dose of basketball Viagra
    • Your source of radical left wing politics cleverly disguised as basketball fandom
    • Palin-Free since before statehood
    • Despairy Home Companion
    • The world's leading exporter of small area quickness
    • Sorry…I have no idea who is Joe Mauer
    • Home of the Peja deep douche
    • Vote McGrady!
    • Bork, bork, bork, bork, bork
    • Wir Sind Darko
    • Weird, unhealthy Darko mania
    • les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas
    • Basketball success makes character issues forgivable
    • Building the Boogie Bandwagon
    • Building the Dream....One Power Forward At A Time
    • Kids, Puppy Dogs, And Long Walks In The Park
    • SWITCH THE FLIP!!!
    • Team Red Pill.
    • December is Bunny Month. Survive it with insincerity and Merle Haggard.
    • Like having a really good seat at a beheading.
    • We've got to have rules and obey them. After all, we're not savages. We're Wolves fans, and Wolves fans are best at everything.
    • Getting Real Mythological
    • Trapped in Punxsawawney
    • BIIYYYOOOMMMBOOOOOOO!!!
    • Estoy llevando mi talento a Minnesota
    • Where sharks do battle with giant eagles
    • You don’t put a saddle and reins on a magical unicorn, you bareback it and put faith in nature
    • Toeing the line between nerd and loser
    • If Theo Ratliff’s Expiring Contract could see us now...

    Hoopus Recipe Book

    Let's Settle This:


    Self-Promotion

    BallHype Sports Blog Rankings


    Managers

    Dr wyn

    Journey_small Stop-n-Pop

    Rviy7fbgmhz5ht2dpgo6q0jfu_small TimAllen

    Editors

    Wolveslogo_small Oceanary

    Authors

    Small SG

    Hrbek_small Jon Marthaler