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Final Draft Board 2011

OK folks, it's that time of year again.  Draft board time.  The fun begins below the fold. 

Star-divide

I tried something new this time around. One thing I've learned over the past year or so is that the ideal form of figuring out who can play in the NBA involves both statistical analysis and good ol’ fashioned scouting.

I think it is safe to say that the best player selection begins with the stat sheet and ends with interviews and eyeball tests. I think Houston assistant GM (and Wolves POBO dream candidate) Sam Hinkie put it best:  

Talk of a special sauce makes Hinkie nervous. Yes, he's a numbers geek and admits it. Yes, he and his staff devour forests of NBA numbers. Yes, he thinks it's comforting to know that while he can't personally watch all 1,230 NBA games in a season, his computer can analyze all 1,230 NBA games. But Hinkie doesn't claim those stats are the gospel. They are just one more piece to a complicated puzzle, and when you're dealing with players whose multi-million dollar contracts can make or break a franchise, every morsel of information helps. "Every team is looking to beg, borrow or steal any ideas any chance they get, Hinkie said. And don't think Hinkie studies only computer printouts.

I met Hinkie last December at the All-College Classic. He was scouting, which could get him kicked out of the numbers-geek union. While watching the likes of Oklahoma's Blake Griffin and Gonzaga's Jeremy Pargo, here's what Hinkie looked for. Does he talk to teammates? Does he talk to the crowd? Does he yell back at his coach? Does his coach baby him, and if so why? If he dunks off a lob, is it because the pass was perfect, or the play was a great setup, or did the defense go to sleep, or is the guy athletic enough to dunk without any of the above? "What we try to do is draw a clearer picture,,Hinkie said. The data trend will continue to be a part of our business, along with the judgment of experienced basketball evaluators and the unique chemistry building that coaches can create. This is yet another piece.

This is absolutely spot-on. In-game communication and team support may very well be an important part of winning. Attitude matters.  Communication matters.  Basketball intelligence matters.  Emotional intelligence matters.  How a player works in practice matters.  These are the sorts of things that require ol' fashioned scouting.  

This year, I have completely separated the two parts of the Hoopus Score (net and efficiency) as well as doing a bit more non-stats research and reading than I have in the past when looking at each of these players' games. The box score (in two columns: net and efficiency) provided the base upon which I made some fairly subjective decisions about who should be where.

Before I get to the final list, here is the net score, which consists of the following per 40 stats: ((reb+stl+blk+ast-to) + TS%)/games played.  This number is then weighted by estimated conversion to NBA production and a few things like age, strength of schedule, and defined NBA position (these are the items that I monkey with every year). This part of the score looks for players that shoot well and produce off the ball and it gives extra preference for those who are young.

Weighted production:

  • Kyrie Irving 16.8704545454545
  • Derrick Williams (big) 14.6467105263158
  • Tobias Harris 14.5963235294118
  • Kawhi Leonard 14.5465277777778
  • Brandon Knight 14.4585526315789
  • Kemba Walker 14.4359756097561
  • Malcom Lee 13.4363636363636
  • Nikola Vucavic 13.4272058823529
  • CJ Leslie 13.3783333333333
  • Tyler Honeycutt 13.3712121212121
  • Tristan Thompson 13.35
  • Jordan Hamilton 13.2944444444444
  • Alec Burks 13.2730263157895
  • Kalin Lucas 13.2595588235294
  • Markeiff Morris 12.1828947368421
  • Marcus Morris 12.1559210526316
  • Derrick Williams (wing) 12.1546052631579
  • Darius Morris 12.0957142857143
  • E'Twaun Moore 12.0735294117647
  • David Lighty 12.0310810810811
  • Scotty Hopson 11.9858108108108
  • Chris Singleton 11.0008928571429
  • Trey Thompkins 10.9825
  • Tu Holloway 10.91796875
  • Josh Selby 10.9028846153846
  • Demetri McCamey 10.8272058823529
  • Shelvin Mack 10.7111842105263
  • Marshon Brooks 9.709375
  • Jon Diebler 9.63108108108108
  • Isaiah Thomas 9.565
  • Jimmer Fredette 9.52837837837838
  • Chandler Parsons 8.34652777777778
  • Klay Thompson 8.33088235294118
  • Nolan Smith 8.28513513513514
  • Kenneth Faried 8.06571428571429
  • Travis Leslie 7.15757575757576
  • Justin Harper 7.15472972972973
  • Norris Cole 7.05069444444444
  • Kyle Singler 7.01148648648649
  • Charles Jenkins 4.7546875
  • Damian Saunders 4.74354838709678

The other part of the score is an efficiency-based number that works with per 100 possession percentages and is not weighted by age or schedule. I do weight things for NCAA position (i.e. rebounds for bigs are worth less than rebounds for point guards; opposite for assists). This part of the score looks for players that are...well, efficient. I view it as being the more important part of the total score and it makes up roughly 2/3 of the final number.  It takes into consideration work load (usage, %min, % shots), points/possession, ppr, oreb%, steal%, block%, etc.   

  • Kyrie Irving 46.72
  • Charles Jenkins 40.46
  • Norris Cole 38.76
  • Derrick Williams (big) 38.6
  • Kemba Walker 36.58
  • Derrick Williams (wing) 35.454
  • Alec Burks 35.02
  • Marcus Morris 33.96
  • Tu Holloway 33.08
  • Jimmer Fredette 32.78
  • Nikola Vucavic 32.27
  • Damian Saunders 31.85
  • Travis Leslie 31.68
  • Nolan Smith 31.2
  • Isaiah Thomas 30.85
  • David Lighty 30.52
  • Chandler Parsons 29.95
  • Markeiff Morris 29.67
  • Darius Morris 29.47
  • E'Twaun Moore 29.47
  • Tristan Thompson 28.92
  • Jon Diebler 28.9
  • Marshon Brooks 28.89
  • Demetri McCamey 28.67
  • Kawhi Leonard 27.56
  • Klay Thompson 26.78
  • Tobias Harris 26.386
  • Justin Harper 26.09
  • Shelvin Mack 25.95
  • Jordan Hamilton 25.58
  • Kalin Lucas 25.34
  • Kenneth Faried 24.52
  • Trey Thompkins 24.36
  • Chris Singleton 24.11
  • Brandon Knight 23.67
  • Kyle Singler 23.37
  • Malcom Lee 22.42
  • CJ Leslie 21.48
  • Tyler Honeycutt 19.91
  • Scotty Hopson 19.74
  • Josh Selby 19.06

Here are the combined scores:

  • Kyrie Irving 63.5904545454546
  • Derrick Williams (big) 53.2467105263158
  • Kemba Walker 51.0159756097561
  • Alec Burks 48.2930263157895
  • Derrick Williams (wing) 47.6086052631579
  • Marcus Morris 46.1159210526316
  • Norris Cole 45.8106944444444
  • Nikola Vucavic 45.6972058823529
  • Charles Jenkins 45.2146875
  • Tu Holloway 43.99796875
  • David Lighty 42.5510810810811
  • Jimmer Fredette 42.3083783783784
  • Tristan Thompson 42.27
  • Kawhi Leonard 42.1065277777778
  • Markeiff Morris 41.8528947368421
  • Darius Morris 41.5657142857143
  • E'Twaun Moore 41.5435294117647
  • Tobias Harris 40.9823235294118
  • Isaiah Thomas 40.415
  • Demetri McCamey 39.4972058823529
  • Nolan Smith 39.4851351351351
  • Jordan Hamilton 38.8744444444444
  • Travis Leslie 38.8375757575758
  • Kalin Lucas 38.5995588235294
  • Marshon Brooks 38.599375
  • Jon Diebler 38.5310810810811
  • Chandler Parsons 38.2965277777778
  • Brandon Knight 38.128552631579
  • Shelvin Mack 36.6611842105263
  • Damian Saunders 36.5935483870968
  • Malcom Lee 35.8563636363636
  • Trey Thompkins 35.3425
  • Chris Singleton 35.1108928571429
  • Klay Thompson 35.1108823529412
  • CJ Leslie 34.8583333333333
  • Tyler Honeycutt 33.2812121212121
  • Justin Harper 33.2447297297297
  • Kenneth Faried 32.5857142857143
  • Scotty Hopson 31.7258108108108
  • Kyle Singler 30.3814864864865
  • Josh Selby 29.9628846153846

At this point, I looked at all 3 of these lists and then at what I have seen with my own two eyes (both reading and viewing--mostly reading)  and put together the big board. If you want the uncut Hoopus Score board that was used last season and in 09, the combined listing is it (sans Euro players). What are some of the things I looked for when moving the final combined listing around?

  • Youth + weighted production: I’m willing to take a risk on young players that can put up good numbers. In effect, I’m weighing age twice (it’s part of the weighted production score), but I cannot stress enough just how much more impressive it is for a 19 year old freshman to put up crazy numbers than it is for a 20 year old sophomore to put up similar numbers (more on this below).
  • TS% is a good, good thing for lead guards (especially when they have a high 2%): I want guards that can shoot. Better yet, I want a solid TS% with a good percentage from 2 (which is also added into the production mix). Kyrie Irving has a TS% of 70 with a 2% of 56. That is insane. I want to know that lead guards either are lights out from beyond the arc or proficient from mid range. Having a good 2% means that the guard is not a 1 trick shooting pony. 
  • Rebounds. I think everybody should know this by now. Beyond rebounds, there are certain parts of the college game that transfer to the NBA better than others.  Who does these things well? 
  • Off the ball production is a must: There aren’t many college players that you can look at and say "Hey, he’s a good enough scorer where I know for sure that skill will transfer to the pros." Scoring in the NBA is tough, especially for rookies. What else can a good prospect bring to the table? 
  • Gut feeling and communication. Let it never be said that I am a slave to spreadsheets. I probably should be, but we’ll try something a bit different this year. This season I looked for evidence of high levels of communication and emotional intelligence with coaching staffs. We’ll compare the final board to the combined Hoopus Score board. 

Final board:

1- Kyrie Irving, lead guard:

Oh, it hurts to put a Dookie this high, and there is big small sample size problem here, but it is hard to ignore the basic mold of Irving’s game: an uber-efficient point guard who can shoot the ball unlike any other 19 year old in the world. While there has been some needed perspective on Irving’s TS%, the fact remains that his post-injury games featured the same sort of fantastic shooting (.681) as his pre-injury contests (slightly above .708). Irving has also been in the Team USA pipeline for about 2 years, and in 6 international games (5 in FIBA U18 and 1 at the Nike Hoops Summit), he posted a .602 TS%. What types of guards shoot this well from the field (above .600 TS%)? Last year, Kevin Martin, Steve Nash, Ray Allen, Chauncey Billups, Aaron Affalo, James Jones, and Daequan Cook made the mark.  The year before, guys like Ty Lawson, Billups, Allen, JJ Redick, Daniel Gibson, Nash, Kyle Korver, Rodrigue Beaubois, and Mike Miller made it. Even if Irving drops into the low-to-mid 60s, he’s still one of the top TS% performers in recent college memory. He’s up there with guys like Jeff Teague (.62), Lawson (.66), Mario Chalmers (.66), and George Hill (.66). Now throw in his Ortg being 16 points/100 possessions better than Nolan Smith. Long story short: Team USA pedigree + Duke performance + international shooting performance = the chances of him being a 60+ TS% performer in the NBA at the point are fairly decent. This is the type of player you build around. This is the type of player you want around Kevin Love. This is the type of player with the chance to be a very high end performer. One of the best arguments for not trading the #2 pick is that it would force the Cavs to pick between 2 players they might equally like: Derrick Williams and Irving. If they take Williams, you draft Irving and don't look back. 

2- Derrick Williams, big:

This will be D-Will’s first of two appearances in this year’s draft board. From size to weighted production, Williams is a decent prospect at the 4. Wolves fans should be very familiar with the type of player Williams could be in the NBA:

Player 1:

  • Wingspan: 7’1.5"
  • Standing reach: 9’
  • No step vert: 29
  • Bench: 19
  • Agility: 11.03
  • Pts/pos: 1.29
  • Reb/40: 11
  • Blocks/40: 0.9
  • TS: 62

Player 2:

  • Wingspan: 7’0.25"
  • Standing reach: 8’11"
  • No step vert: 30
  • Bench: 19
  • Agility: 11.06
  • Pts/pos: 1.23
  • Reb/40: 15.7
  • Blocks/40: 1.9
  • TS: 61

Do you want the Wolves to spend the #2 pick on a guy who may not even be Mike Beasley-Lite with a better head and a weaker all-around game? If this sounds like a plan, then Derrick Williams is the man for you. I think there is a legitimate argument that the Wolves absolutely cannot draft this guy, as he could not be any more similar to B-Easy and I honestly have no idea where you’d play him, especially (and mainly) because of Kevin Love. Let’s call this the Red Pill Argument. That being said, the Wolves have exactly 1 player that can consistently play at an above-average level and this pick is their best shot at picking up a player that has a chance to develop from an awesome rookie into a superstar-level player, which is what gets you lots of wins in a capped league. This is the Blue Pill Argument. 

Let’s be very clear: this is a 1 person draft with a bunch of similar players at 2-5. That being said, I think what matters most with the pick is how other teams view the top of the draft and it seems that the league views this as a 2-man affair. If this is the case, and if you are in the position to have to make this pick, I think you have to play the hand in terms of what the other guys at the table are going to do. In this case, they probably can’t pass on Williams. In terms of talent, I’m fairly certain Biyombo is the 2nd best player available, and that in terms of pragmatic drafting the best idea would be for a trade down to 4 or 5, but if they trade him for an established (and possibly massively overpaid in the new CBA structure) player like Iggy or Granger, I think they are once again missing the entire point of the draft. Good GMing and coaching can get you to .500. Hell, coaching and a culture of winning got Memphis into the 2nd round. Hitting on a top pick, even with an incompetent owner, a clownish ex-son-in-law behind the curtain, and an awful coach, is something that Wolves fans can hang their hat on for a very long time. With the possibility of a hard cap or a reduced cap, rookie contracts are a very good thing, especially if they are awesome rookies (awesome rookies on their 1st deal and superstars are the best two assets in the league).  

So, do you find yourself wanting to swallow a red D-Will pill where the Wolves should trade away the pick because there is no possible way they can have their 5 best players at a single position (Love, Randolph, Tolliver, Beasley, Williams), or do you take the blue one and draft what the rest of the league views as the 2nd best player in the draft and hope for the best with a future trade? Can you crack open both pills and cut out a few lines on the table that will allow you to draft him and then trade him for someone like Biyombo plus additional assets? Will Biyombo ultimately move up everybody else’s draft board? We’ll just have to wait and see. For the purposes of this draft board, Williams is the 2nd most valuable player in the draft and he is so primarily because of the hands of the other teams at the table. Oh, if he has a decent mid-range game or can hit 3s above .400 and can get to the line, he might be worth it

3- Kemba Walker, lead guard:

I know he’s undersized. I know he’s basically the type of player David Kahn thought he was getting in Jonny Flynn. He played off the ball a lot down the stretch and he’s not the best outside shooter. What Walker is is a good scorer who rebounds well for his position (5.8/40), passes well, and barely turns it over while playing huge chunks of minutes and handling gigantic mounds of possessions. Walker played 92.4% of his team’s minutes (9th in the nation), accounted for 31.4% of the possessions while he was out there (20th in the nation), while only turning it over 11.6 times/100 possessions (83rd in the nation) and carrying a 54.3 TS% with a decent ast% (28%). In other words, very good things happen when Kemba Walker is on the court and they tend to happen directly because of his play. I don’t really foresee a situation where the Wolves are able to draft Walker, but should they get the chance, he would immediately and without question be the best perimeter player on the team.  Walker is the one player in this draft that absolutely does not suffer from small sample sizeitis or is something of a gamble.  He may not be the player with the highest ceiling, but he probably is the one with the highest floor.  

Actually, I think Walker is getting something of a raw deal during this draft. One of the things that makes up part of the Hoopus Score is that I add up rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals per possession and then subtract turnovers/possession. This is about as basic as you can get with a raw value score for non scoring production. On this measure, Walker is above Irving. He is above everybody but Norris Cole. Throw in scoring, a lack of turnovers, awesome shooting, and you have a guy that deserves to be near the top of the draft. I debated putting Knight ahead of him for a long time but at the end of the day, it’s really hard to overlook what Walker did, despite his size and age. He’s just really, really, really good and he will be able to play point in the NBA. He’s going to surprise a lot of people. I’m convinced of it.

4- Brandon Knight, lead guard:

OK, here’s the first stretch away from the combined score. It was made largely on the combo of weighted production and age. Let’s take a look at the raw production numbers of some of the guards in this year’s draft as well as some top guards since the 08 Draft:

  • Kyrie Irving, 16.8
  • Russell Westbrook, 15.7
  • John Wall, 14.54
  • Derrick Rose, 14.49
  • Brandon Knight, 14.45
  • Kemba Walker, 14.43
  • Jonny Flynn, 12.9
  • Kalin Lucas, 12.9
  • Darius Morris, 10.5
  • Tu Holloway, 10.5
  • Shelvin Mack, 10.4
  • Jimmer, 9.1
  • Nolan Smith, 7.94

A few things: First, Rose put up a ½ season that was above 16. Second, if you take Irving’s per 40 numbers and average them against the average games played of all other point guards in the draft (instead of 11 games), and you put his TS% at his average at the levels seen in international play, he lands with a 14.7 score (which is still very good and above any other lead guard in the draft).

Why does Knight have such a high score? Age + across the board solid play. The one big concern I have about him is that he doesn’t do 1 thing extremely well. If he put up his freshman numbers as a 22 year old junior or a 23 year old senior, he’d be Shelvin Mack or Nolan Smith. Instead, he is producing as a 19 year old freshman. Again, the draft is the only place teams like Wolves can find players who present value (i.e. their production outpaces their contract). I’ll let Ed Weiland take it from here:

The point of trading stars for future draft picks is that the future draft picks remake the team into a force again. I’m just not sure the Timberwolves get this.

(This is, once again, also the best reason to not trade the #2 pick. Shouldn’t it be obvious to anyone looking at a Big Player for #2 pick trade that there is an opposite side to that coin? Why would a team like Philly or Indy want to trade big production for the #2 pick?)

Knight also has the added benefit of being...wait for it...long and athletic. A 6’6" wingspan and a 7’11.5" standing reach is more than enough to get things done at the point.

With the addition of Ricky Rubio and the existence of Bismack Biyombo and Derrick Williams, I cannot really envision a scenario where the Wolves walk away with Knight. 

5- Alec Burks, wing

I have kind of softened a bit on Burks. On one hand, I think he’s a relatively fantastic prospect in this draft. On the other hand, I’m not sure the gap between him and guys like Jordan Hamilton, Malcolm Lee, and Tobias Harris is enough to think about drafting him near the top of the draft. I just don’t think he’s the type of player you consider taking with the #2 pick so I’m not sure you think about the guy unless a) you really buy into the D-Will can’t play the 3 argument, b) you trade down, c) you value him over Biyombo, or d) you trade up from 20 to get him. Burks is right in the weird spot of the draft board where the Wolves will either have to overlook a lot of things or trade up to get these guys. Ditto Kawhi Leonard.

A MOMENT FROM THE HEART:

666- Josh Selby, lead guard:

There is absolutely nothing in Josh Selby’s resume to suggest that he is one of the top 10 picks of this draft. That being said, I just cannot shake the feeling that this guy is a top 3 talent and that he will end up being the biggest steal (possibly best player) of this draft.

I saw Selby a few times in high school and his standing as a top prospect makes me believe that a 9-game suspension and a stress fracture injury at Kansas prevented us from seeing that this kid is a top-level prospect. Something about his game just makes me think of Monta Ellis and he is as athletic as all get-out. I really think he is that good of a prospect and even though he was playing hurt at Kansas, the times I saw him play I saw a guy who knew what in the hell he was doing. I can’t explain this pick other than to say that in a weak draft with some big risks, I think Selby has the best non-Irving talent of the college bunch and I’d have zero problem with the Wolves taking him in the right spot. The guy had a stress fracture in his foot and he was suspended for 9 games. If the Wolves are going to get good, they need to hit the jackpot. I don’t see any other player in this draft as having as much "jackpot potential" as Selby, especially if he is available at 20.

Oh, ditto for Jeremy Tyler.  I've never seen him play but I'd rather the team take a flier at 20 on a guy like Selby or Tyler than I would them trade the pick. 

WHILE WE’RE AT IT:

777- Bismack Biyombo, big

Let’s turn things over to vjl110:

Of the top prospects, Biyombo, assuming he can develop basic NBA skills, is the best fit for the Wolves. Bismack is pretty raw, and shouldn't be starting his first year in the league. However, the Wolves currently receive the worst production from the center position in the NBA (Millicic WP48=-0.096 and Pekovic Wp48=-0.094, [5]). Darko and Pek cannot see significant minutes if we hope to crawl out of the cellar. Bismack might not set the world on fire next year, but he may be an upgrade over our current line-up. Giving Biyombo time will be especially tolerable given that he projects as the perfect front-court compliment to Kevin Love. Defensively Biyombo does everything that Love doesn't. He gets out on the perimiter, has the reach to combat any center in the league, collects blocks as a help defender, and is praised as a vocal leader on the defensive end. Offensively, Biyombo will be an oop target, a foul magnet, and will hang-out near the basket throwing down dunks and collecting boards. Off the court Biyombo seems to be a high-character guy and has a nice smile. Apparently Bismack even lists Kevins Garnett and Love as his favorite NBA players.

It’s almost too perfect: The longest and most athletic guy in the draft who specializes in defense and rebounding and is the ideal running mate for both Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio AND who lists two Timberwolves as his favorite players. Get him. Put him at the top of the list. Biyombo and Selby! Biyombo and Selby!

In all seriousness, this guy deserves tip-top consideration with the #2 pick. If they can find a way to move down and still pick him, fine, but he might be the perfect front court pairing (low usage + defense + rebounding + positional flexibility at the 4/5) with their best player and he has a better track record than the other highly-talked-about big man, Enes Kanter. We know a few things about EL/ACB transfers to the NBA: rebounds, blocks, and assists transfer well. If Biyombo is really 18 (and I think he is; hell, even if he’s 20 he's a top prospect), he will likely be able to give the team production in two key areas right off the bat. If we plug his ACB scores into the Hoopus spreadsheet, and we do not adjust them to the NCAA game, the guy puts up a reb/ast/blocks/steals/to/40 rate on par with Kenneth Faried and Kawhi Leonard. Tougher league, younger, bigger. Oi. We already know how he comps to Serge Ibaka in the ACB. Everything we know about the guy (albeit with small sample sizes) points to him being an upper level prospect. He’s a gamble, for sure, but he’s exactly the type of player you take when you’re a 17 win team in need of a home run.  (Actually, I think there is a better shot that Biyombo's shot blocking, defense, and rebounding transfers to the NBA at a high level than there is for Derrick Williams' 3 point shooting and free throw rate.)  He is not just amazing length and athleticism.  There is amazing production, as well.  He is much more than simply an amazing athlete.  

Also, one of the things I look for in all draft prospects is if they do one thing very well. If they have one bankable, go-to NBA characteristic, I’m willing to overlook some flaws (FWIW, this is the thing that worries me the most about Knight--see above). Biyombo will rebound AND block shots. He will foul and his offensive game will definitely be a work in progress, but I’m fairly confident that he will be able to rebound and block shots like an established NBA player from day one. He is also the most athletic player in the draft.  Awesome production in two key categories + amazing athleticism is a no brainer. We don't bat an eye when a guy like Derrick Williams shows signs of being an upper-level shooter with an upper level ability to get to the line; why do we show apprehension with a guy who might be better at two skills that likely have a better history of transferring to the NBA?  Why not pair the possibility of upper level shot blocking, defense and rebounding with upper level rebounding and efficient scoring (Love) and passing (Rubio)?  Rubio + Biyombo + Love has the possibility to be this amazing collection of upper level role players who are simply in need of a single high volume scorer.  It sets everything up for the Season of Redemption for Senor Skittles.  Anywho, this guy absolutely deserves to be taken with the 2nd pick. The only question about why he should be taken lower has to do with questions of pick value.

He’ll be a tough sale to casual fans on the day after the draft, but Biyombo is the pick. He has to be.

BACK TO THE PROGRAM:

 

8- Tobias Harris, combo forward

How did this kid fly so far under the radar this year? 18 years old, consistent, and diversified. He’s not the most athletic guy in the world but he appears to have it all together at a level you don’t typically see in 18 year olds. This is a guy who looks like he could develop into a very, very nice team player.  

 

9- Kawhi Leonard, wing:

If you cannot find a player who can carry a high usage rate while scoring efficiently and not turning it over, the next best thing you can hope for is a guy with a lower usage rate who can really produce off the ball while not turning it over. Leonard isn’t going to win any shooting awards but he will rebound the hell out of the ball, defend multiple positions, and be a decent passer.

Of all the players I put into the spreadsheet, Leonard carries the 4th highest reb/40 mark (13) behind Markeiff Morris, Kenneth Faried, and Thomas Robinson. Throw in his age (19), ridiculous measurements (7’3" wingspan, gigantic hands), and solid net production and you have a guy that you can pair with Wes Johnson (who, for better or worse, seems to be a part of this team’s long term core) at the ⅔. The team would still need a high-usage point guard to bring it all on home, but they certainly could do a lot worse at this point in the draft by passing on the top ranked wing player in the 11/12 class. Oh, he can't shoot a lick....so there's that.  

10- Derrick Williams, wing

He’s not a 3. I don’t know what else to say about this.

11- Nikola Vucevic, big

Gigantic, earthbound, can rebound, shoots well, does decent things off the ball, and he doesn’t turn it over. Would Enes Kanter be better than this guy after a year in college? It’s really too bad Kanter didn’t get to play at Kentucky.

LEAD GUARDS GONE WILD:

OK, we’ll try something different this year. I’ve put up what I believe to the the top players in this year’s draft. At this point in the game, it is ok to draft a bit for fit and need. The following guards are presented in the order I think they should be drafted in.

Charles Jenkins- Jenkins posted a 64% TS while going 56.3 from 2. This is in the neighborhood of Irving. He doesn’t rebound like Norris Cole, but that’s not exactly needed on the Wolves. He’s good with the ball and he can shoot the hell out of the rock. Jenkins is the poster child for scoring efficiency. He carries a HUGE workload (92.3% of his team’s minutes with a 28.4 %poss) while being a great shooter and not turning the ball over. He gets to the line and gets a lot more fouls than he gives. Let’s take a quick peak at a few of the top lead guards in the draft:

Player, Pts/40, FGA/40, pts/fga/40

  • Jimmer Fredette, 32.3, 23.1, 1.39
  • Norris Cole, 24.3, 17.8, 1.36
  • Charles Jenkins, 24.2, 15.6, 1.55
  • Kemba Walker, 25, 19.2, 1.30
  • Darius Morris, 17.3, 13.5, 1.28
  • Kyrie Irving, 25.3, 13.7, 1.84

First of all, holy crap Kyrie Irving. Second of all, if you are going to be a lead guard in the NBA (even off the bench), you have to be good with the ball and make the most of your shots. Jenkins doesn’t have the range as Fredette, but he clearly has the better game from mid-range in, and his length (6’7.5" wingspan) and athleticism give him better defensive potential than Jimmer.

Jimmer Fredette- Jimmer simply doesn’t have the mid-range game as the guy he’ll be most compared to: Steph Curry. Can he make it click as a 3 point specialist without carrying nearly the usage he had at BYU all while running the point? Curry is really good because he doesn’t need to muck it up in the paint. Will Jimmer be able to develop a 15-18 foot game that will also open up passing lanes in the pick and roll? We’ll see. What he will have as a positive coming right out of the gate is that nobody will ever go under a screen on the guy. Maybe that single talent (being able to shoot from anywhere) will play out better than I think it will in the NBA. Oh, he’s going to get murdered on defense.  

Darius Morris- Size and passing ability. He also shoots 53.3% from 2.

Norris Cole- 56% TS with a good assist, rebounds, and steals/40 marks. He’s older, had an easy schedule, and is not an athletic monster. That being said, he has continuously improved and he’s a threat with the ball.

The undescribed masses:

  • Shelvin Mack
  • Iman Shumpert
  • Isaiah Thomas
  • Kalin Lucas
  • Demetri McCamey (FWIW, my gut tells me this guy should be way higher. He had a terrible season and performed at a much higher level during his first few years at Illinois. I think he definitely should be a 2nd round target.) 
  • Nolan Smith
  • Reggie Jackson

THE AMAZING, WINGTACULAR GRAB BAG:

This post is getting a tad long so I’ll just leave out the descriptions.

  • Jordan Hamilton (I know I said I'd leave out the descriptions, but is Hamilton really going to be worse than Williams if D-Will doesn't transfer his 3s and fta/fga?) 
  • Malcolm Lee
  • Etwaun Moore
  • David Lighty
  • Marshon Brooks
  • CJ Leslie
  • Tyler Honeycutt
  • Chris Singleton
  • Jon Diebler
  • Scotty Hopson
  • Klay Thompson
  • Travis Leslie

THE FANTASTICAL BIGPOCALYPSE

Have at it:

  • Tristan Thompson
  • Marcus Morris
  • Markeiff Morris
  • Kenneth Faried
  • Trey Thompkins

A FEW THOUGHTS ABOUT ENES KANTER

Enes Kanter has played 31.2 minutes of pro ball. If you have no problem drafting Enes Kanter, then you should have no problem drafting Bismack Biyombo. One guy has the potential for awesome offense and shaky defense, the other vice-versa.  On the positive side of things, should the Wolves draft Kanter, it might be worth it simply to hear David Kahn try to explain how Love + Kanter is different than Love + Jefferson.  It will also be entertaining to hear him talk about how drafting without a coach is different than drafting with a lame duck coach. 

SOME THOUGHTS ABOUT KYLE SINGLER

Do not draft Kyle Singler.

GETTING TO THE POINT

This draft has a clear #1 and then a clear dilemma for the Wolves. I think there are 2-3 players that are absolutely deserving of the #2 pick. My gun-to-the-head take is that Biyombo is the 2nd best player in this draft. That type of production at that age and physical profile and with that type of game is something the Wolves absolutely cannot pass on. That being said, as I have repeated over and over and over and over again, in a capped league, the draft is the #1 way to build a team. The entire point of the draft is to accumulate awesome rookies, who are second only to superstars in their value to the bottom line. The Wolves need to walk away with an awesome rookie (or an awesome player on his first contract if it takes a year to warm up). Whether they keep the 2nd pick or trade down to pick up one of the top players, they cannot swing and miss on this draft. It absolutely cannot happen. They cannot afford to go through 3 drafts with multiple picks in each one without walking away without an above average starter.  

I do not feel as confident about this draft as I did about 09 and 10. In 09 our draft board would have netted the Wolves Steph Curry, DeMar DeRozan, Ty Lawson and DeJuan Blair (I don’t rank Euro players and I’m making an exception with Biyombo). In 10 it would have landed DMC and James Anderson. I felt good and confident about those picks and those rankings. This year, I feel good about Irving and Biyombo and kind of crappy about everybody else. If I had to put money on who besides Kyrie and Bismack would be an impact player, I’m laying money on Brandon Knight and D-Will (as a PF). That being said, I think the most important part of this draft, and the part where I am trying to muster as much fake-it-until-I-make-it optimism as possible is to be able to maximize the value of the #2 pick. For those of you who believe that David Kahn’s most competent trait is his trading ability, this is what you should get moderately excited about. If he can do anything at an average level, it appears to be making trades. If he can get Biyombo at 4 or 5 while picking up an additional asset or shedding a big salary, that’s a huge win. If Biyombo is rocketing up all of the draft boards and he has to take him at 2, I think that’s still a win.

Beyond the 2nd pick, I think it would be best for the team to hang on to #20. I think a decent perimeter player will be available at that point in the draft. Josh Selby, Malcolm Lee, Etwaun Moore, and David Lighty. One of these guys is going to be available and would be worth a flier, especially Selby.

Ideal outcome with the stauts quo: Biyombo + Selby or top wing on the board.

Ideal outcome with status quo and a little help: Cleveland allows Irving to drop to #2 + top perimeter player on the board.

Ideal outcome with trades Biyombo + Burks or Leonard.

Grab bag preferences not named Josh Selby and/or Jeremy Tyler:

  • Tristan Thompson
  • Jordan Hamilton
  • Charles Jenkins
  • Morris Twins
  • Malcolm Lee
  • Jimmer Fredette
  • Darius Morris
  • Norris Cole
  • Etwaun Moore
  • David Lighty

That should get us to 20.

I cannot say it enough: In a capped league, the draft is the best way to get the 2nd most valuable types of players in the NBA: awesome rookies. The Wolves own the highest draft pick in franchise history and they need to walk away with an awesome rookie (i.e. someone who will outproduce their rookie contract with a chance to become an upper level player). I don’t care if they draft at 2 or trade down. As long as they get a top pick and not trade this top chance at an awesome rookie for someone like Iggy, Granger, or Ellis. That would be an amazing failure, especially with a few players (Irving, Biyombo, Williams, Knight, and maybe Walker) who have the potential to meet the awesome rookie requirement, if not something more.

Draft rules:

  • Do not trade for a vet.
  • Do not draft Kyle Singler.
  • If you are willing to draft Kanter, you should be willing to draft Biyombo.
  • Do not trade 20 unless you move up.  The chances of picking up someone at 20 who can play as well if not better than the Wolves' current perimeter grab bag are fairly good.  The team can get a functional player here.  They can even take a shot at the moon.  Do not buy into the "there's too much youth" argument.  The problem the Wolves have is not youth; rather, it is that they have crappy personnel and coaching.  They need good players. Period.  The draft is the best way to acquire good players. 

One of the things that I have grown tired of during the past few Blueprints is hearing how the Wolves are going to follow the Portland Chicago Boston OKC Memphis model of success. If it isn't obvious by now, it should be: The Wolves need to develop their own model of success.  They operate in an environment where draft picks are a larger key to success than free agency.  They operate in an environment where the ownership is terrible and the team is run by a guy (Moor) who absolutely does not know what he is doing and will always have the ear of his former father-in-law.  The best the team can hope for, and the thing that fans should be pushing for, is a completely stripped-down basketball operations department that is completely focused on building the team through the draft with as much statistical input as possible (i.e. the more weight is given to a statistically-based process, the more unlikely it is that silly concerns about smiles, good NCAA tourneys, firm handshakes, etc come into play with a front office who clearly values these sorts of things as much as the prior regime. Draft picks are the most important asset this franchise has and they 100% should not be traded for vets until a solid core is formed.  Right now, the Wolves have a solid core of exactly 1 player.  It is ridiculous to think that they think a vet-for-#2 is the recipe for success.  Under Kahn, they've put together the 4th worst 2-year record in league history.  Even though Kahn has proven to be a terrible drafter, the draft is still this franchise's best chance at success, as it is more likely that Kahn will luck out with a pick than it is that he will trade for an upper level vet (or 2, which they would probably need to really be successful).  He's good at getting the B-Easy's and Anthony Randolphs of the world; he has yet to show he can bring in something more substantial. 

Keep the damn pick (or trade it to a lower spot if you can get your BPA and value).  

Well folks, that about does it. You’ll notice I’ve skipped over a few Euro prospects. This is on purpose. I know nothing about their games and I’m not going to take the time to add them to the list and transfer all of their numbers to NCAA/NBA projections. The only reason I added Biyombo is because he is so obviously talented and it was easy to break down why he'd be good in the NBA (defense, shot blocking, and rebounding..I have no idea how Euro Scoring and shooting transfer).  

It's definitely going to be an interesting draft night. 

What say you?

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Comments

Display:

Agreed

I gave a rec solely for the section on Kyle Singler. The rest of it was also, well, trill.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 19, 2011 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ack!

This year’s draftee is Isaiah Thomas. Not Isiah, the Hall of Fame PG and front office wrecking ball. Isaiah.

by feral on Jun 19, 2011 9:05 PM CDT reply actions  

Poor Isaiah Thomas.

Let’s take it as a given that he won’t get drafted by the Knickerbockers.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 4:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or he will!

Dolan is still very much in love dad. Talk about a dysfunctional owner?

"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Jun 20, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

How did Tobias Harris fly so far under the radar this year?
8- Tobias Harris, combo forward

Smart, versatile game, but 3-4 as opposed to 4-5?

by feral on Jun 19, 2011 9:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Awesome write up!

What a great read. I’m hoping for a trade down & picking up Biyombo. Completely agree that we need to keep #20 or try to move up.

by superBea on Jun 19, 2011 9:15 PM CDT reply actions  

Great stuff.

I’ll be ecstatic if we walk away with Biyombo, but I’m getting the feeling that they’re going to keep Williams. I like a lot of the players at 20 — I hope they find room for one of them.

by Madison Dan on Jun 19, 2011 9:31 PM CDT reply actions  

I want Jimmer. I don't care which pick we use on him, but I want Jimmer.

Then we can take a big with the other pick (Biyombo, Kanter, Faried, I don’t care). Jimmer and a big. That’s what I want.

JIMMER!!!

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 19, 2011 9:37 PM CDT reply actions  

I've got a great vibe on Klay Thompson

Per SnP’s take on Biyombo having one skill that he can carry to The NBA at a very high level, I feel the same way about Klay Thompson. I guess I’m buying David Thorpe’s take on him – that his shooting is a near guarantee and that the perceptions of his weaknesses can probably be at least partially attributed to playing at Washington State.

Thorpe also said he’s best suited with a penetrating PG… I think he’d be such a great fit in Minnesota.

by foobee on Jun 19, 2011 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

You know how at sea I am this time around?

Names are mattering. That’s how at sea.

Klay is a kick-butt name. Jimmer sounds like a pot dealer at your High School who drives a restored El Camino in spangled purple paint, with a personal “JIMMER” license plate.

It matters.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 4:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Open to Iggy

I am open to dumping some garbage w/ #2 for Iggy + #16. Then seeing if we can use #16 + #20 to move up to get Biyombo. I think Rubio + some defense might help Beas reach another level. No interest in Granger Or Ellis. Probably not interested in Gasol either. If someone surprising becomes available (Kevin Martin, Bynum), then that would be great. Boget + #10 would be interesting if you could trust Boget’s health (if you could trust his health, he probably would not be available). I have zero interest in trading #20 for a role player (unless he is Battier like in terms of defense/leadership).

by Grant Anderson on Jun 19, 2011 9:37 PM CDT reply actions  

I just worry that they'll lock in a big salary....

…before the new CBA kicks in and that it will be an absolute albatross of a contract. There is a chance for them to be much more flexible of a trading partner in the new CBA environment.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

A very good point...

…I would rather get Hickson and #4 out of Cle so they can have #1 and #2, then turning Hickson into a good young SG (Evan Turner) or a mid-lottery pick.

by Grant Anderson on Jun 19, 2011 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol

Hickson

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 19, 2011 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

No. 2 for Hickson + No. 4

Hickson obviously is not a need. He’s got everything it takes to be a strong starting PF, but he has no versatility so he’s blocked with The Wolves. That said, he’s got good value we could easily leverage in a second deal.

We pick up a nice asset and get Biyombo at a more appropriate draft slot.

Sounds like Cleveland is trying to deal him too – seems like an open-and-shut deal if The Wolves want it. Given that Ronzone is jonesing for a 2nd-rounder, I bet we could even get No. 32 and 54 from Cleveland in that deal.

by foobee on Jun 19, 2011 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not a terrible deal, actually.

I like the idea of trading down to 4 (because I think the options are about equal from 2-4 or 5ish) and picking up Hickson. I’d even say that adds a bit more fuel to the trade Kevin Love fire. I just don’t see how we can keep collecting PFs and hope to keep the one that is most likely to leave. I’d hate to lose the guy, but I also think it’s inevitable and I’d rather get the most out of him that we can as long as we’re only winning 20 or so games anyways.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 19, 2011 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd do that all day.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 20, 2011 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, it's not a bad deal

I just can’t believe that some people think J.J. Hickson is anything special, and the idea behind flipping Hickson after acquiring him is that someone else would.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 19, 2011 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't get it either

Going from the #2 pick to the #4 pick is very significant. We should get more than JJ for that.

by Django Z on Jun 20, 2011 4:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

History in a good draft says we probably can't get more than that...

I forgot which CH poster did the analysis, but somebody recapped what trading down is normally worth in value. To get a young starting player in the deal is actually pretty good from a historical perspective.

And besides, I’m going on the foundational notion here that:
A.) Biyombo is a justified selection at No. 2.
B.) DW is a bad fit and probably not as good as this bad-year hype machine is proclaiming him to be.

To get Biyombo at No. 4 + pick up a starting caliber player (Hickson) in the deal as well? It seems worthwhile to me.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 7:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Stupidest thing ever

And I’m a wolves fan

by And 1 on Jun 20, 2011 12:37 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Hickson

is a PF.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 19, 2011 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Doh! I see what you mean

and I don’t see us turning Hickson into Turner any time soon.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 19, 2011 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

albatross contract

I have been told by an insider that they will NOT trade for Iggy because of salary. They will not be taking on any albatross contracts. If a had my guess they will draft Williams. I have not been told this but reading between the lines this is the impression I get. Unless they get a great trade offer which I doubt. However, they are very high on Mcgee. I can tell you that. Washington does not want to trade him.

by rickyrubio10 on Jun 19, 2011 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

How do you think the Wolves view Biyombo SnP

Early in this process it seemed like we loved him, but Givony tweeted a couple days ago that he thought we didn’t like Biyombo at all.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 19, 2011 9:41 PM CDT reply actions  

My favorite line from that one on one interview with Ronzone:

Interviewer: Are you concerned about his defense? (referencing Kanter)

Ronzone: No, anybody can play defense, its just about effort.

Me: WTF. So . . . the Wolves last two years . . . ummmmm. . . right.

by Tollysnipes on Jun 19, 2011 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think this draft may cement Ronzone's reputation

There are a bunch of tough to quantify internationals at the top of the draft. If there is a future star among them he’d better steer us to it.

by Django Z on Jun 20, 2011 5:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fair.

We give our people a couple of years to stretch their legs first, I guess.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 5:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

On the other hand, Ronzone was basically roses and posies about everyone in that interview.

He listed all the positives about everyone, glowingly talked about keeping the pick, and so on.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 4:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's SOP for and POBO predraft

"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Jun 20, 2011 8:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see how

Looking at past moves – Craig Smith, Gomes, and Big Al out.

In? AR, Beasley, even Darko.

My point? Kahn’s track record firmly suggests two things. 1) Length and athleticism matter ( eg being earthbound is bad. And 2) Kahn loves a good value. Enes fails point 1, and point 2 is the only reason why Kanter may rank ahead of BB on their board.

by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jun 20, 2011 12:14 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I prefer Biyombo, but I'd be fine with Kanter as well.

Not sure if Utah lets Kanter slide though (why am I assuming we’re destined to pick No. 4 this Thursday?)

by foobee on Jun 19, 2011 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kanter

Kanter is NOT their guy. They are looking for someone long and athletic who plays defense.

by rickyrubio10 on Jun 19, 2011 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

One thing about this

If Biyombo was the Wolves guy, nobody, not even the Cavs, would worry about it. It’s not like Biyombo is going #1 so if Biyombo was the Wolves guy for real, they could just say: We are taking Bismack Biyombo if he is there at our pick. Or they could leak it to any number of outlets in any number of ways.

I wouldn’t doubt the Wolves are looking at Kanter, and, honestly, I’m not sure why. Kanter makes no sense if you were against Al Jefferson/Kevin Love as a pairing (I thought it was a bad pairing myself but the Wolves haven’t taken advantage of Jefferson leaving to upgrade).

Then again, I’m also not a Wolves fan either.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 20, 2011 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fitting...

That we might trade our pick the year the two top SnP prospects(Irving+Biyombo) have all of the boner inducing traits (eloquent, nice smiles) Kahn looks for in a prospect.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 19, 2011 9:46 PM CDT reply actions  

Not to mention long and athletic.

Do we know anything of the firmness or lack thereof of their handshakes?

by JopeX37 on Jun 19, 2011 10:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Irving's interview on the NBA Today Podcast

I couldn’t have come away from it with a higher opinion of him. It’s more than just being extremely well-spoken and not making any mistakes, some of the answers he gave demonstrated a really good understanding of what he’ll need to do to be great at the next level.

If there’s a way to get him, we should spare no expenses. He demonstrated an ability to play off the ball at Duke. He and Rubio together could totally work.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 19, 2011 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ronzone didnt think they could play together..

and thats all that really matters isnt it?

"But this one goes to eleven..."

by kingsxman on Jun 20, 2011 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm going on record now

Kemba Walker will be in 3 years be considered the best PG in the draft.

Plus he can dance.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 9:48 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

No, it will be Jimmer.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 19, 2011 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ouch

Is Jimmer supposed to be a 1? Thought he was a 2 or a swing?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes

J.UST E.NJOY T.HIS S.HIT

by big_p.a.w.z. on Jun 19, 2011 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Jimmer can dance. It might not be that hippity-hop sort of dance. But he can dance.

And you’re right, he’s probably more of a 2. But I view him as an Allen Iverson-comp, which means he could play either.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 19, 2011 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Polka

Queue up the Lawrence Welk bubble machine.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH7JThWCt6o

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 19, 2011 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I envision

somehow, someway, Mr. Jimmer ends up in Utah.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 10:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

You heard it here first...

Jimmer will be selected 15th overall by the Pacers, where he will join Larry Bird, Tyler Hansborough and Josh McRoberts as the baddest collection of white dudes since the Average White Band.

"If a kid calls his grandma "Mommy" and his mama "Pam", he's going to jail!"---Chris Rock

by TSAX on Jun 20, 2011 12:24 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I go out of town for a few days and lots of stuff happens

and Rambis is still the coach.

I think there are a couple of questionable positions here, as interesting as the write up is. yes, guys on rookie scale are hugely valuable…if they can play. they need to walk away with an awesome rookie Using the draft to get impact players is great, but it’s entirely unclear that there are any impact players available to the Wolves in this draft.

Also, I’m not clear that anyone, even me, is advocating trading the 2 for a guy making max or close to max money, so lets move on from that. That doesn’t mean trading the pick is definitionally a bad idea.

Do not buy into the “there’s too much youth” argument.

As much as I agree that the lack of talent on this team is the overarching problem, the above statement strikes me as dubious. Yes, get the best players you can. But the point is to win games, and I’m fairly well convinced by the available evidence that having a very young roster is a hinderance toward that goal. If you have evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it.

I suppose what it adds up to for me is that there’s really nobody I feel great about drafting with the 2nd pick.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 19, 2011 9:50 PM CDT reply actions  

Though I would be remiss not to thank you for this excellent work

very interesting and informative.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 19, 2011 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, it depends on the town

I mean I was away from easy internet access. Sadly for you, I’m back.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 20, 2011 6:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps

“there’s too much youth” is not by itself a signficant factor, but combined with other factors such as length of time in the NBA and the amount of time (year-over-year) that players work together is impacting, especially on defense.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the chances of there being...

….1-3 impact players in any draft are fairly decent. Regardless of where they exist in this particular draft (or in 10 and 09), the Wolves will have spent 6-8 first round picks in a 3 year span and they absolutely cannot afford to not have a single above average player come out of the bunch. That’s disastrous. That’s above and beyond losing several mid to late round picks because of an under-the-table deal. The Hoistacock plan for this team was to build around Love and Jefferson with multiple picks and free agent targets in the 09 off season. This year’s draft is the last of the current multi-stage Kahnprint (I can’t remember what stage they’re really on). They can’t blow through this many picks with nothing to show for it. Someone in this draft is likely going to be a good player. They have more pressure than ever to identify him and walk away with his services.

In terms of big contracts, I’d hate to see them take on anything more than $10 mil. I think they’d be much better off waiting until the new CBA and then making a deal for a a highly paid player when they know what the new financial landscape looks like. I think they’re playing with fire if they make the deal before they know what the new financial landscape of the NBA looks like.

As far as young rosters, Memphis and OKC entered last season almost as young and as inexperienced as the Wolves. Lionel Hollins consistently said throughout the year that being young was not a crutch:

http://es.pn/mh2sYC

There’s a lot of players that come in the league and make everybody keep saying, ’You’re young, you’re young, you’re young.’ And the next thing you know, they’re not young any more and their career is over and they haven’t accomplished what they wanted to… It’s not that you’re young, it’s that you don’t understand. And if you want to understand how to win and do the things that are necessary to win, then you have a chance. It has nothing to do with your age."

I view the whole “they’re really young” argument from Kahn as yet another cop-out. The guy just keeps kicking the can down the road (just wait until he starts telling us that Rubio will take 2-3 years to get acclimated to the league) when the elephant in the room will remain the same: he gathers questionable talent. This is the last draft before Clippergeddon. The team needs a front office that has shown itself to be some of the worst drafters in recent memory to pull something out of a hat. They need to find the impact player.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 10:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yea, sure

But where would the Grizz be without a certain veteran guy named Randolph?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it's a culture of winning thing

I think the Wolves could take any roster in the league and cause it to be 5-10 wins less simply because of the way they run things.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

No dispute

about the Wolves environs. Just saying that Randolph made the team reach the playoffs. Before that, not so much.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is it?
Randolph made the team reach the playoffs.

Causal relationships are tricky.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 4:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think he's certainly..

….a key component. I’m not sure how you suss out how much or whether or not his play is a product of the culture, etc. How about “that seems true”?

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 20, 2011 7:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, but I mean, there's also a sort of "critical mass of talent" thing going on there.

Nobody’s going to say Rudy Gay’s presence got them over the top, but at some point the fact that they had enough talent around to withstand the loss of a Rudy Gay to injury, that’s a larger story.

When I watched Memphis as of Mayo’s rookie year, when we were all watching them more, my biggest reaction was that Marc Gasol was a much better and more efficient player than we’d expected, and that they had a big shot at improvement with young guys like that around. For me Marc G. is easily as big a reason for their improvement just lately, and Z-Bo’s another chunk of talent.

So, how does “Mac Gasol made the team reach the playoffs” feel? ‘Cause I wouldn’t really say that, but it makes as much sense as giving all the credit to Zach R.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Speaking of Mayo

The national media types continue to list him as a Wolves trade target. I like him.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 8:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not at all sure we're allowed to have both Mayo and Love on the same roster.

They’ve been linked together since college in some sort of weird karmic thing. At some point one of them has to learn that Leia is really his sister, and then think of all the tension.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I honestly don't think that team is any better off

with or without Rudy Gay. That’s a large chunk of change to pay for such a minimal effect.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 20, 2011 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably the same amount of times

it’s been true :)

This year, I don’t think many people said that about him… or last year for that matter.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 20, 2011 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Count me as skeptical of players magically becoming "winners" who make a difference

when they were complete non-entities before. If the Wolves win more this next year, it won’t be because Kevin Love used to be a selfish scrub and has become a winner, it’ll be because the team is built better.

People tend to read causal relationships backward, especially when it comes to emotions and attitude and their involvement in sports.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

Randolph has always been a good player

it’s just that he’s always been a me-first player. It’d be like if Big Al ever learned to pass. Of course I tend to credit their play more to Gasol’s improvement and everyone else’s consistency. And I guess I could add the drop in competition this year (but that’s just my opinion).

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 20, 2011 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

And many other examples, too.

It’s hilarious how little memory we have. Ask any NBA fan before this year’s playoffs about Dirk. It’s silly.

by feral on Jun 21, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ummm

Dirk almost won the MVP a couple of times. I don’t think you’re on to something here…

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 21, 2011 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're kidding, right?

Dirk had a reputation for fading when it counted every bit as nasty as the one LeBron’s been assigned after their loss this year.

You and I may not have bought it, but it was the storyline about Dirk’s career. That’s been the case since his MVP season, when the Mavs lost in the first round to Golden State. He had a reputation for being soft and disappearing in the playoffs.

by feral on Jun 21, 2011 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

there's no doubt that the number of high picks they have burned through without appreciable positive effect

is the core disaster of the Kahn era, and I think there’s every chance that they do so again this year.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 20, 2011 6:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

If they cannot find an above average starter....

…..with any of these firsts, I think that alone is grounds for firing, as well as grounds for them to rethink their entire approach to player selection from the top down. Hell, they could probably contract it out and do better. I do subscribe to the idea that this draft is muddled enough in terms of who could be the best player that it will be hard to fault them for taking a flier on a Euro big or Williams. There’s really no one near the top of the draft that I have a “no way should they be considering this guy” take on. Of course, they could always do something crazy like trade down for a Jan Vesely or some player that has no business being taken with a transaction involving the 2nd pick, but in a weird way I think they’ve found themselves in a position where they can take something of a reasonable flier with their top pick. Nobody should complain if they take Kanter….at least not for a few years.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 20, 2011 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather have them trade down to take Vesely

than pick Kanter at 2. I thin I’d take Vesely ahead of Kanter at any spot.

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

I also love Vesely.

It may not sound sexy, but I’ve been a huge proponent of trading No. 2 to Washington for Jordan Crawford, No. 6, No. 18 and No. 34.

At No. 6, The Wolves probably be able to choose among Kanter, Vesely and Biyombo. Crawford boosts the SG spot and there is excellent value in this draft at No. 18 and 34.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd really like that deal

but minus Crawford. We’re short on roster spots as it is. Obviously we’d also have to pick at least a couple of Euro-stash players or trade for future picks. I like your Mirotic idea for one of them.

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

yeah...

Take Crawford out of the deal and I’m on board as well.

by vjl110 on Jun 20, 2011 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

He had an eFG% of 42 with the Wiz...

and 41 with the Hawks, while taking between 19 and 20 shots per 40 minutes. I want nothing to do with that kind of player.
He rebounds and passes pretty good for a 2-guard, but he needs to get a lot better at choosing his shots in order to be anything but poisonous.

by vjl110 on Jun 20, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think it makes sense.

Washington has been adamant that it won’t deal Wall (obviously) or McGee to move up to No. 2, but they really like DW.

So I say, fine, you can keep Wall and McGee, but you need to trade us Crawford and all three of those picks. Why wouldn’t Washington do that? They can start with a pretty impressive quartet of Wall-D.Williams-Blatche-McGee.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good comments above, but what about #20?

If you do this deal, you also include #20 to the Wiz. We cannot use both 18 & 20, so we take 18, a signficant move up in this draft.

To compensate, we give Flynn to the Wiz, or maybe Ellington, or preferably both of them, as Crawford = Ellington anyway.

So that makes it:
 #2, #20, Flynn, Ellington to the Wiz;
Crawford, #6, #18, #34 to the Wolves.

by timmuggs on Jun 20, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think we need to sweeten the offer.

1. Washington really like DW.
2. We absolutely could use both No. 18 and No. 20. One of them is ear-marked for Mirotic… future stud who we can afford to stash.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rubio

On the plane as I type.

Tens of thousand protest ‘bleak prospects’ in Madrid and Barcelona.

May not be related.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 9:51 PM CDT reply actions  

Ha. That’s pretty good.

by fanslaststand on Jun 19, 2011 10:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

NBA.TV

The fellas have Wolves taking DW @ #2, trading Beasley.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 9:57 PM CDT reply actions  

They also said Ricky should be the #3 PG

Behind Ridnour and Flynn. Not believing a word those guys say.

by twolf1 on Jun 20, 2011 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

One guy said that.

The other two were like “…behind Flynn..?”

Also, that same guy who said he should be third guard said “if he produced in training camp, give the ball. But if you hand the reins to a PG and he doesn’t pan out, it alienates the team and the fanbase.”

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 20, 2011 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

for all intents and purposes...

what fanbase? You really think there are that many people left to alienate?

Not you specifically, but whomever that “guy” was.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 20, 2011 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think Rubio has brought quite a few people back on board.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

yes, but...

how would giving him the ball alienate the fanbase? Wouldn’t not giving him the ball re-alienate those fans?

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 20, 2011 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, it would. I was just addressing your "what fanbase" question.

I expect that opening night – whenever that is this year – will be a packed house at the Target Center to see El Nino.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

I for one considered the #9 season ticket package.

The aftertaste of last draft, though, is still pretty bitter in my mouth. If Thursday was to give me a big bounce, maybe.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

No idea.

NBATV Draft Preview. It’s on every day like 10x a day until the draft.

It’s quite lame. They give like 30 seconds on “team needs” and project a player that doesn’t really fit their needs; it’s mostly just to inform people about the players.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 20, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Keeping DW

If the Wolves can get some actual value for Beasley (like Turner from the 76ers), I am more open to keeping DW and playing him at the 3 than SnP.

by Grant Anderson on Jun 19, 2011 10:01 PM CDT reply actions  

DW @3

NBA.TV guys say DW wants to play the 3.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, and KG always wanted to play the point

It doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

"Off-street parking requirements are a fertility drug for cars." ~Donald Shoup

by Facial on Jun 20, 2011 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great, great right up.

So much of your analysis matches my own thinking. I’ve always felt that Kemba was getting short shrift (but was too chicken to stand up for him).

A couple of unrelated questions:

1. If Cleveland is truly on the fence about Irving/Williams, couldn’t we add an asset to help them take Williams? I tend to think it’s all posturing and they’re taking Irving and know it, but if some asset (not named Love, Beasley or Rubio) can get us Irving, don’t you have to do it?

2. I’m assuming that we, whether trading down or not, will be announcing Williams as our pick at #2. At which pick should we stop holding our breaths for report of a trade? I fear the steadily growing fear as no deal is announced as picks fly by. I’d be okay, I think, with this if Beasley can be flipped into a pick or player to play the 2 (Burks, hell, even Jenkins), but I don’t see that happening.

by stuntmonkeys on Jun 19, 2011 10:08 PM CDT reply actions  

From DX Express

Don’t get me wrong, I like Beasley. But I see some differences from Beasley in just a few paragraphs:

June 19, 2011
“Derrick Williams is the most highly touted prospect in this group, and his situational stats do nothing to diminish his standing.

Williams shouldered a heavy load for Arizona this season at 16.4 possessions per game (5th in this group), but was nevertheless the most efficient forward of the players we looked at, scoring 1.16 points per possession. That’s especially impressive considering how heavily defenses keyed in on stopping him, how little playmaking Arizona had besides him, and the way in which he generated his offense.

In fact, Williams’ offensive efficiency ranks higher than every other player in this draft besides Jon Diebler (1.3 PPP) and ironically enough, fellow #1 overall pick candidate Kyrie Irving (1.2).

The key to Williams’ efficiency begins with his ability to get to the free throw line, where he knocks down 75% of his attempts. He got to the free throw line on over 1/4th of his possessions, which ranks 2nd in this draft behind Tristan Thompson.

Williams may not shoot the most jumpers of this group—only 25% of his shots come in this form— a far cry from Kyle Singler and Robin Benzing at 63% or Chris Singleton at 56%— but he makes more of the jumpers he does take (56%, or 1.6 points per shot) than anyone, and not by a small margin.

Williams appears to do a great job trusting Arizona’s offense and waiting for good opportunities to come to him rather than hunting shots—something that his NBA coach will surely appreciate. Williams amazingly enough only took 5 pull-up jumpers all season, representing just 1% of his total offense.

My Note: Again, l like Beasley, but how many times did we see Beas force the ball into the crowded paint and get his shot blocked or deflected versus playing within the offense?

From DraftExpress.com http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Derrick-Williams-5811/#ixzz1PmZoNNTE
http://www.draftexpress.com

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 10:20 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Great job SnP

Always fun to see the guys you name as the undervalued ones in the draft.

Someone is gonna get a good C in Vukevich. As you state, we should get a good wing player at 20. I hope the FO reads your draft board.

My gut says we take Yombo at 2 or via trade. The Ronzone interview was the tell, IMHO. He praises DW, seems genuinely excited about Kanter. Asked about Yombo, he says “athletic” and moves on, nuthin else to say. Looks to me like he is sandbagging nicely, maximizing the value of DW and the #2, while targeting Yombo. Maybe I should keep my trap shut. OTOH, I’m usually wrong anyway…

by timmuggs on Jun 19, 2011 10:21 PM CDT reply actions  

I thought this (i.e. the Ronzone bit)...

….was what they were doing last year with DMC. I don’t think they operate that way. I’d love to be wrong. The only thing that gives me kind of hope on Biyombo is that their good international scouts saw the guy early on and wanted him to fall to 20 but then when he started climbing….well, I’m stretching at this point.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Weren't there reports last year

that they were hoping Cousins fell to 20th (obviously before the season got too mature)?

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 19, 2011 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dont think Ronzone likes Biyombo...

From what we heard last week talking to him…..his comment: “great defense, couldnt score against himself” pretty much sums up, to me anyway, that they’re not really interested in him at anything resembling the top 10.

"But this one goes to eleven..."

by kingsxman on Jun 20, 2011 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

You better take some rolaids for that gut, tim

If the Wolves are interested in dealing, and they should be, they will take the highest valued player (as determined by the other teams, i.e., market value) and wheel and deal.

DW is the consensus highest valued player and represents the biggest chip on the table. Whether that translates into Kanter, Yombo, who knows.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

I said "...at #2 or via trade..."

I think that covers it.

Rolaids give me a tummy ache

by timmuggs on Jun 20, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I thought this too

until I realized we pick 2. We don’t really need to send any smoke signals.

by TajMcCall on Jun 20, 2011 2:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

For our 20 (or undrafted signings) I'm still aboard

the Lighty Rail or the Malcolm (Lee) X(press).

Sorry bout that….

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 19, 2011 10:23 PM CDT reply actions  

Bad puns

are kind of my thing. Unfortunately, not everyone finds them to be punny.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 19, 2011 10:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice write up

But seriously, your Biyombo bromance has reached ridiculous proportions. Calling his offensive game a “work in progress” is completely glossing over how much he’ll struggle on the offensive end. I would love to see him make it in the NBA, and even more so on the Wolves, but I just don’t see it happening.

by Simonds on Jun 19, 2011 10:24 PM CDT reply actions  

Kudos to S-n-P

but the obnoxious cynic in me says this was a conclusion looking for an analysis.

Don’t get me wrong, some very good work went into this post, but I could have wrote the conclusion before reading the analysis. Get Blyombo.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or...

….I started writing the post about a month ago and I primed the pump a bit.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Right

no problem. You have been unwavering for sure.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 11:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thankfully...

….he will not be called upon to play much offense.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 10:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have you seen some of the passes Rubio gets to his bigs?

Biyombo isn’t exactly going to be required to create any offense. With minutes, I think he could be a highly-efficient 10-10-3 center as a rookie. And those 10 ppg would come entirely from put-backs, rebound-dunks and alley-oops. The 10+ rpg and 3 bpg should be a cinch. Give me a low-usage defensive stud C and that may translate to 10 wins by itself.

by foobee on Jun 19, 2011 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Very

True, Rubio has made stars of some ordinary bigs, no doubt.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 11:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Whoever the Wolves run out there at C next season, I look forward to a year of Dean Garrett comparisons.

Marbury may be nuts, but his “breastfeeding” crack about Garrett was awfully sweet.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 5:01 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

My fav quote in Wolves history. Also one of the most accurate.

by TheH on Jun 20, 2011 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Like who?

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 20, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Per 36 maybe, but he'll only be on the floor 20 minutes.

The zebras don’t like the rookies playing too many minutes.

by Airete on Jun 20, 2011 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Eh, Biyombo

I think, strangely, he’s a guy that looks better statistically than in person. There’s a youtube channel with a few hours of game tape of him and, even defensively, the guy is hella raw. This isn’t a player that will come in and do anything at a high level his first few years, although he certainly has the potential to get there.

by shangrila on Jun 19, 2011 10:27 PM CDT reply actions  

Remind me again how the D-league is worthless.

How many of this year’s first rounders would benefit from playing in a real minor league system? Biyombo could spend a year working on whatever offensive game you expect him to have.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 5:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

What?

I said I don’t expect him to do anything at a high level (i.e. offence or defence) his first few years in the league. Playing in the D league won’t change that, nor will playing overseas. The guy is a longterm project on both sides of the ball, he’s just further along defensively than he is offensively.

But yeah, I’m still staring at your post wondering how it relates to mine.

by shangrila on Jun 20, 2011 7:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not trying to rebut you, just saying: Raw projects are going to become narrow players if they're playing to with at the NBA level.

If Bismack Biyombo plays for the Wolves, he’s never going to develop whatever offensive game. He’ll be typecast according to his rookie limitations to a large extent.

Down in Sioux Falls, if there was a real minor league development system, a player like that could both get his legs under him in terms of defensive play using NBA-style foul calls and also decide what sort of offensive repertoire he might need to be able to go to.

There’s a significant difference in how the player development priorities work in those two settings. In one of them you’re basically trying to get the guy to play an immediate role in winning five more games this year. In the other you think first about what’s best for his game (and ultimately the team) in three years.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

I disagree

Only because I feel Biyombo can contribute at a very high level immediately as a rim-protector and rebounder. If he was lost in every facet of the game, I’d send him to Sioux Falls. But, if that were the case, I would draft him in the Top-5 either.

What trumps all, though, is that The ACB is about a billion times better of a league than The D-League. It just doesn’t seem to make sense that the best thing for his development is to play him at a far lower level of play than the one (ACB) that he’s already proven to be a highly-effective player.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

For me almost any new player, and especially very young ones, should pay their dues.

It’s a radical stance, but I’d send every pick down unless he was immediately going to be the sure starter. Rubio given this roster has to be in the latter case.

Biyombo’s 18 (we think/hope) and even his defensive and rebounding strengths are going to be subject to foul trouble; I suspect he spends his first half season in the NBA proper playing short minutes and picking up fouls like Pekovic last year. A player like that I’d put in a real minor league system. Not the current D-league, mind you – a real minor league, meant to develop players.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

What shouldn't be ignored

is that guys like Ben Wallace are very-skilled in ways that don’t shine through in the actual game. Wallace can hit NBA 3’s when he’s screwing around in shootaround. Former Vegas Leaguer, Longar Longar, has a nice perimeter jumper when he’s playing pickup ball at the Rochester Athletic Club and you’d never know it if you watched him at Oklahoma.

If Biyombo is totally inept on offense (struggling versus chairs) that isn’t something to write off completely.

by Andy G on Jun 20, 2011 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't disagree, but there isn't a real minor-league system.

And, even if there was, 15-20 mpg of Biyombo defending and rebounding is worth at least a few wins. The way he complements this current lineup is so perfect that he’s gonna play a significant role right away.

We’re in a win-now mode… especially with Clippergeddon upon us. If a guy helps us win, we need to give him minutes. And besides, it’s not like Biyombo won’t develop at The NBA level. Minor leagues are strictly for developing players who aren’t currently good enough to play at the NBA level. Biyombo will offer a lot immediately.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 8:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're totally right that I'm pining for something that's not there.

And given the CBA tussle’s current eat-the-seed-corn tone, I doubt we get there.

But this is already happening now, even with the restrictions on D-league assignments and so on. A steady drip of players who aren’t getting enough time with the big club are being assigned to D-league teams to get their playing legs back, at least.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Totally agree

It’s not strange either, there are quite a few players who look much better statistically than in person. Biyombo is great at weakside defense, no question. He struggled with PnR defense when asked to go out to the perimeter, and never really had to deal with a bullish offensive player (even in the NHS game). His rebounding tends to get overstated as well, he should be a good rebounder, but it’s not an elite skill of his – has gotten by with his length and wild hustle.

Offensively, man… I think everyone knows how he is there.

Hype train is going “CHOO! CHOO!” with the casual draft fans across NBA nation, however.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 20, 2011 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's funny

because I’ve thought that Williams is the guy whose stats look much better than the game film, and the opposite for Biyombo. But I guess there’s a reason no one pays me to pick players for a living.

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think it applies to both.

http://www.youtube.com/user/bboyskinnylegs#p/u

The channel shangrila was talking about (wish this channel had been up before I had to watch all the available games of his).

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 20, 2011 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Link for full games

Start at Jordana 16 and his team is Fuenlabrada.

Hopefully those download links are still active.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 20, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

re: Williams' game film

which game film are you referring to? The one where he goes off for 25 vs. Duke in the first half? Yeah, not impressive. I could list other games, too. I can’t recall whether you personally are a hardcore stats guy or not, but I find it amusing that some on this blog use stats until it no longer suits them.

by BDavige on Jun 20, 2011 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

It looks to me like his outside shot comes out kind of slowly,

and he looks awkward when he’s trying to create his own offense. When he gets points inside in college, I wonder whether he can get points that same way in the pros. I’m no expert evaluator at all, and his numbers are awesome. I just expected to be more amazed watching some of his game film. All of those dunks off of passes from other people when he’s wide open don’t do much for me. A lot of players can do that. I’m just not sure he can create his own offense, which I think he’d need to do to be worth the second pick.

If you disagree, that’s fine. As I’ve said, I don’t think it’d be the worst thing for the Wolves to draft and keep him. It’s just not what I’m rooting for. Is that enough for you, or do you want to lob some more insults my way?

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

His shooting numbers are awesome.

But that is it. Be wary of the one dimensional players, especially when that dimension is scoring against college kids.

by vjl110 on Jun 20, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

One Dimensional?

Have to disagree with that. He is a very well- rounded offensive player. He can score by getting to the line, from the three point line, and posting up.

by Vlade on Jun 20, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

Foul rate

I thought this was supposed to be one of the more translatable skills to the NBA (along with rebounding and steals). Am I remembering wrong?

by stuntmonkeys on Jun 20, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

R^2 Free throw attempts per minute NCAA to NBA is 0.286

Not very high. However it could be as much due to the poor translation of FTA between leagues as it is due to the translation of fouled rate.

by vjl110 on Jun 20, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Like I said

I didn’t know if you were a hardcore stats guy or not, but since it appears you’re more of an eye test guy then I can’t believe you don’t like Williams. Everyone has their preference and you’re entitled to yours, but Williams can play and has proven it in college in every measurable way (good teammate, team success and stats).

Does anyone know what D. Wade’s FT rate was in college? Suppose I could look this up. They’re not the same players, but the way Williams draws contact reminds of Wade. And Williams has done it since day 1 in college. He did it as a freshman (check his first legit college game against WI in the Maui Invitational, Jay Bilas couldn’t believe how he was getting to the line) and he did it as a sophomore. That’s his game. Sure, he may not get the calls initially in the NBA, but I think he will eventually because it’s so much a part of who he is as a player.

I just want good players on this team, not projects (BB). Williams or Irving are the tickets in this draft. BB isn’t going to solve Kevin Love’s defensive inadequacies, the whole team playing as one unit will. Defense is not complicated. It’s five guys playing together, not one over-aggressive shot blocker doing everything himself.

by BDavige on Jun 20, 2011 4:58 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wade is insane off the dribble

One of the knocks on Williams is that he doesn’t create, just shoots (amazingly) efficiently and dunks it.

by aarendsvark on Jun 20, 2011 5:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Depends on your definition of elite...

but 4th in the ACB in rebounding as an 18 year old certainly borders on my definition of elite.

I can’t speak to Biyombo’s PnR defense, post defense, and general defensive awareness, but that has been my one concern with him. If his general defensive aptitude is half as raw as his technical offensive skills, he will not be much of an asset right away.

That stats will be there though. Biyombo will block shots like no one else, and rebound at a very high level. I don’t think the infatuation with Biyombo can be dismisses as “hype” any more than the infatuation with any other prospect in this draft. Kanter is less well-known than Biyombo, Irving is working with a really small post-highschool sample size, D-Will has some big red-flags, Knight wasn’t even good in college, Kemba is small….

by vjl110 on Jun 20, 2011 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sounds like Biyombo's BIQ and general intelligence are both high.

So, while all rookies have some trouble adjusting, I think his work in help defense and PnR defense will accelerate faster than most rookies. Again, though, this will be helped along by the fact that he’s played and made big contributions at such a high level already.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Is this a playoff team?

If, as rumored, The Wolves deal:

1. No. 2 for Andrew Bogut and No. 10 (say it’s Klay Thompson).
2. Trade Jonny Flynn for Toney Douglas.

PG: Rubio -- Ridnour -- T.Douglas
SG: Wes -- K.Thompson -- Ellington
SF: Beasley -- Webster -- Hayward
PF: Love -- Randolph -- Tolliver
C: Bogut -- Darko -- Pekovic

The critical mass of talent plus the fit of all these repective pieces has to equal a playoff team, right?

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I’m skeptical of his rebounding numbers, even though the history of ACB→NBA and NBA→ACB stats (at quick glance) appears to be relatively even. Both in watching video and looking at his game logs, he put up insane rebound/min numbers against the weaker teams without a true big, and put up mediocre ones against stronger teams with true bigs (long exception being Granada). We’ll see, but I find his rebounding to be more reliant on being bigger/longer/more athletic than the ACB competition than I do because he’s Love/Evans-esque.

And yes, I think it can be labeled as hype. Kanter’s can also be labeled as hype. You’re grasping at relating the concerns with him to the rest of the names on your list, however – and I’m not a Knight fan.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 20, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Just curious

who do you like for the Wolves at 2?

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like trades the most at #2. Straight up, it would be Williams.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 20, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting take on BB's rebounding numbers?

Did Biyombo play a different schedule than everyone else in the ACB? If not, then he still did more, against the same opponents, than all but three of his colleagues. That’s impressive because apparently, not everyone (even the big centers) is able to clean the glass against the weaker teams as well as he did.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 20, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

.246 reb/min vs .382 reb/min

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 20, 2011 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

You can look up his game-by-game stats

here. He did have one good rebounding game against a decent team, and his blocks look good against teams up and down the standings. (Yes, Casper, I’ve looked at these and some ACB footage. Sorry if my interpretation of it is ridiculous to you.)

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

is it?

i remember reading an article earlier this year about the Heat and their record vs good teams compared to their record afainst bad ones. they beastied against bad teams like the Wolves and not so much against the good ones. the example was then tied in with some research showing that no matter how a team gets to a high overal point differential, the net difference is what matters, not who they got the lion’s share of it against. i wonder if the same holds true for individual performance. also, if we’re cutting a small sample size down even further, i’m not sure what we gain. is he a risk? absolutely. however i’ve watched all the footage on the guy that i can find on youtube and i see a guy who can simply use his size and strength like few other people on the planet. i think it’s obvious even from a modest glance. look at the first few plays on the above link. they show a guy who doesnt look very comfortable with the high pick and roll yet look how quickly and to where he releases. i think he has a great feel for a game that he doesnt know that well (yet) and that combined with his physical gifts (easily the best in the draft) and vey solid production in very little service time make him every bit the prospect as williams.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 20, 2011 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

also...

…isnt it more likely that good teams shoot better than bad ones (i.e. less rebound opportunities for biyombo against good teams) with a guy who didnt log a huge number of minutes, does this matter/exist, and if so, how much? i dont know the answer but that (along with a tendency to favor larger sample sizes…ie the good and bad together) is my main reason for skepticism here.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 20, 2011 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Also...

…how are we defining who is good/bad? Good teams play bad games and bad teams play good games. He seems to have had a .327 reb/min rate in his team’s losses while carrying a .248 one in their wins. Again, I think there are some very good points here about how he plays, but I’m not sure dwindling down an already small sample size can tell us anything about his ability to rebound. We look at the largest sample size possible and take it as a whole. I think that this, combined with what I see on film (and les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas) is what makes me think so highly of him. Would it have been nice to see him with the big squad for the entire year? Yes, but I do think a very good case can be made for the guy that doesn’t simply equate to hype.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 21, 2011 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

The variance in performance is an excellent point

and it’s helpful that this post notes that his variance is larger than a couple of his teammates. Variance is an under-appreciated component of basketball-stats.

That said, I still believe he’s more than a body. If I go with your conclusion, that he has one elite skill and one good skill, that’s two more observed skills than Kanter. So, I put him above Kanter on my board because I base decisions on most likely outcomes rather than best possible outcomes. I don’t touch Kanter because of the lack of evidence of any elite skill. [this is not saying Kanter will not be better. It is only saying that I lack evidence]

Now, can you put BB in the same tier as DW? Probably not, there is much less evidence of BB’s elite skill than their is of Williams. Although, for a team like the Wolves, it is important to ask whether or not you believe that Williams elite skills (scoring efficiently) will translate to the NBA.

It’s also informative to ask more about variance. While variance is problematic, it’s likely less indicative of future inconsistency for 18 year olds than it is for 24 year olds. This is a question I’m really interested in. Guys make names for themselves with stand out games, especially when they are young. Does looking at variance help us put those standout games in more context or can stand out games, in and of themselves, say may about an 18 year’s olds future than a 23 year old?

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 20, 2011 5:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is it possible...

…that we take D-Will at 2 and trade Wes to someone in the lottery (Kings, Wizards, Pistons and Bobcats maybe) for the opportunity to draft Biyombo? Then maybe Josh Selby falls to #20? Oh, how we can all dream right?

I completely agree about the Selby evaluation. Every time I watch his high school highlights I think I"m watching Monta Ellis all over again. There’s no doubt the team that gets him is getting a uniquely talented kid.

by twolvesgm on Jun 19, 2011 10:29 PM CDT reply actions  

This post is Canis Hoopus Christmas

The final draft board write-up never disappoints.

This has been an interesting lead up to the draft because, outside of Irving, I don’t know what I myself want out of it, so there isn’t the usual sense of lobbying for your guy and dreading the inevitable wrong pick. But it wouldn’t be a Kahn draft if it didn’t seem like the least appealing options (draft Williams and keep him, or take Kanter at #2) are the most likely ones. I’ll find a way to be very depressed yet.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 19, 2011 10:36 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Don't you wish we had won another 10 to 15 games

and not have to worry about the playoffs or lottery?

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

...

Next year, my friend…. next year.

by LoveLovesLove on Jun 20, 2011 2:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think my take almost perfectly mirrors yours here.

Lots of ambivalence… hard to see anything super disappointing happening Thursday, but my most luke-warm outcomes seem like the most likely.

by vjl110 on Jun 19, 2011 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Funny point about Kahn and the least appealing options (I agree about both)

I think a big part of the problem this year is we’re dealing with especially poor/incomplete information. That’s always kind of an issue with the draft, but we’ve got a lot of foreign prospects this year, and some have seen very little serious action (as SnP notes with Kanter).

Lots of the CHers have done yeoman work when it comes to trying to assemble a coherent, well-founded prognostication for these prospects, but there’s only so much you can really say definitively when you’re working with 17 games from the under 18 European Men’s Championships or an r^2 of < .4 for scoring volume and efficiency. Most of the prospects that are being discussed don’t have the same obvious red flags that a guy like, say, Wes had (age, only 1 really good college season out of 3). The lack of red flags is probably partly poor sample sizes for a lot of these guys (that information problem again). That leaves us with a lot of prospects clustered in the 2-8 range that could conceivably be very good players.

It makes for an interesting draft, but it’s also one where it’s hard to make a lot of strong proclamations about one player’s likely success vis-a-vis another’s.

by WolvesFan03 on Jun 19, 2011 11:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

williams wins games

did u see him play at zona it was him and a bunch of role players. id have williams and love as forwards williams has an ouside game . beasley trade him for a beer and a brat ….

by skol viking on Jun 19, 2011 10:53 PM CDT reply actions  

Unfortunately he also played against a bunch of role players

"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Jun 21, 2011 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Austin Rivers

dang! Watched this young man again today. Going to Florida for a year, best Rivers of the bunch.

40+ points today

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 19, 2011 11:05 PM CDT reply actions  

I'd take him with the 2nd pick...

…if he were in this draft. No doubt about it.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Doubt that.

I think he’d go first!

"All men make mistakes, but married men find out about them sooner." -Twain

by Tangerine dream on Jun 21, 2011 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

I take exception to some key points

Derrick as Beasley light. No, Beasley himself has been Beasley super light. In three years he has not Whiffed i/3 of what his college stats projected. That is zero reason to think a player of similar size and athleticism will do the same. Biyombo? overall he wont help this year. I spite of his arms he projects as a PF not a center and even then his 44 percent free throw rate will prove difficult to take his hands may not be good He would be better starting as a role player on a better team. Playing for the wolves not so good.

f

by mr.sorbet on Jun 19, 2011 11:16 PM CDT reply actions  

Pretty good point, actually

It’s a false equivalency to say Williams will fall short of his projections just because Beasley, with similar projections, did. Nevertheless, he’s a PF, and his best use to us is as a trade chip. He’s the best possible pick with #2, but only if we don’t keep him.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 19, 2011 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I certainly didn't mean...

….for it to come across as a false equivalency. I should have just linked to the post where I talked about Williams’ game compared to Beasley’s. I started writing this post before I wrote the other one and they probably don’t match up as well as they should.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

As mentioned below...

…I should have just cut and pasted part of my D-Will/B-Easy post instead of making a poorly written comp with the Beasley lite stuff. I could have done that a lot better. The comp is more about what we don’t know about Williams’ game and what he would have to do to eclipse Beasley.

As for Biyombo, I think he will be big and strong enough to play center and that he’ll be able to rebound and defend from the get go. There will definitely be lots of ups and downs but I think he is exactly the type of player the Wolves need to get lucky with. They have been looking for an athletic rim defender who can guard both front court positions when Love is in a bind. Along comes a guy who not only is the best athlete in the draft, but who is young and appears to be on the track to upper level performance in blocks and rebounds.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 19, 2011 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we go by what type of player Kahn has repeatedly said we need

Than you’d think we’d be all over Biyombo. I can’t even remember how many times Kahn has said we needed an athletic rim protector. He’s a perfect fit in that respect. Hopefully they think he (or Valanciunas) is that guy.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Jun 20, 2011 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo becoming Ben Wallace

is our best chance to get to the promised land. I agree, he is the guy we need to get lucky with. But it’s not going to happen, sadly. Kahn doesn’t see it.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 20, 2011 2:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

We're going to be the ATL of West

4th or 5th seed. Bounced in the first or second round every year.

Biyombo could bust and keep us in the lottery. He could boom and make us a real championship contender. This guy’s upside is basically Dwight Howard with less scoring ability. If Dwight Howard had Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio in their primes, I could see that team winning a ring honestly.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 20, 2011 2:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not Dwight, that's too much.

His upside is Ben Wallace, and that’s pretty freakin’ good.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jun 20, 2011 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo at 4

is fine. If you want to say BB is our 4, and Love is our 5, go for it. Love would pretty frequently cover 5’s anyway whenever we went against a team with a pretty good 4 that Darko “could” “cover.”

by BeasleBong on Jun 20, 2011 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Red pill, blue pill....

with Papa Glen, Moor and Kahn running things, I vote the purple pill – Nexium! These guys give me acid reflux!

Anyway, great write-up, S-n-P! I agree with you on Selby – l just have a feeling lots of teams are going to be sorry they passed on him. And kudos for you stance on Singler – think he’ll end up as a less successful Adam Morrison. ;)

Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-lagunga.

by SoDakHmr on Jun 19, 2011 11:26 PM CDT reply actions  

Great write up!

Great presentation on the stats – also like the focus on real time observations. It’s interesting that DW scores better big than small in college. I wonder if he ends up being better playing at the small in the NBA because everyone is bigger and faster. I would be okay with taking him if we can get something for Beasley. I have really been rooting for Beas – immense talent – but I don’t think has the make up to be a consistent game in and game out producer over time.

Also have been touting Tobias Harris for a while. 5 star high school player who played on a team often in coaching turmoil this year (his freshman year) and he improved steady all year, averaging 21 points in March. He would be a great pick @ 20. Strong work ethic and high BBIQ, he could be a very versatile team player in time.

I agree we absolutely must score with this draft, so I think BB must be considered too. High risk but potentially high reward – would absolutely help our defense and complement Rubio and our other long and high flying players. Kanter would not be a disaster, but I like BB better, fit wise. Crossing my fingers they get it right!

by Jogger on Jun 20, 2011 12:36 AM CDT reply actions  

Having two guys that can't shoot will hurt.

Guarding Rubio, you can slack off 5 feet behind the 3-point line and play everything to the pass. Then just keep Biyombo out of the paint, hedge deep on every screen and box him out. That puts a lot of pressure on the passing lanes and help-side defense (against our offense). The defense can ignore two players on the court for 80% of the time…

by Boss10 on Jun 20, 2011 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

A valid concern

However, in time, I believe Rubio will improve much as a shooter. After all, he shot %80 from the foul line over the last three years so it’s not like he doesn’t have any touch. As he gets stronger, he’ll finish better at the rim and will improve shooting from the floor like Kidd and Rondo have. Good luck on keeping Biyombo out of the paint and boxed out – he is so athletic – and with those long arms he can just reach over people. Like I said it would be a risk that may not be taken, but he could develop into something very special ala Bill Russell (hey, a guy can dream). Fouling would be an issue early but he seems very intelligent and focused on being great.

by Jogger on Jun 20, 2011 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

+1

Funny, I just posted this same rationale on the next thread about Rubio’s shooting.

I’d be far more concerned if he was 50-60 percent from the stripe. To me, he just seems to have trouble finishing in the flow of play right now. Could it be that he’s so focused on creating for others that he’s not 100-percent comfortable finishing on his own yet?

I have no idea (no idea if it’s psychology, lack of strength, lack of killer instinct, whatever) what the issue is, but I do think he’ll be an average shooter/scorer in time.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 7:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, not sure either

I think it has probably been a lack of focus – people tend to reinforce what they are praised for and with Rubio that has been his facilitating. Plus, he has always had good shooters to pass to. Also, how often has he had the ball in his hands as the clock wound down and he had to force up a shot. Lack of focus and practice on his shooting might be the main issue. I know he was a better scorer when he was younger.

by Jogger on Jun 20, 2011 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Danke

I really like Harris, as well. He performed well in a tough spot (see their crazy coach and the suspension nonsense).

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 20, 2011 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Question about trading for a vet 2

You talk about “freeing up our capspace and being more agile” to get what? An established 2 guard? It is easy to fall in love with a draft pick and what they might become as for me I would rather have a Monte, an Iggy or a Kmart. One of these guys are the ones that we should be targeting this off season. If we can get BB or another great rookie great, but I would rather have a solid 2 so we can win some damn games.

on another note great write up I always like reading your takes even if I don’t agree with them.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Jun 20, 2011 1:27 AM CDT reply actions  

Danke

I also would like them to trade for an established 2 guard, just not before the new CBA. If we knew what the cap would be I would be all about them moving the pick down in a deal that included this type of player. I’m just worried that they’ll really handicap themselves by doing it before a new CBA is hashed out.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 20, 2011 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just can't see how we'll have to move the No. 2 pick for one of those pricey vets.

I really, really hope there is no amnesty clause (allowing teams to buy out one player with a bad contract) in the new CBA for two reasons:

1. It’s simply not fair – teams like The Wolves have been building for cap flexibility and accounting for a lower salary cap. An amnesty clause gives all the financially-irresponsible teams a get-out-of-jail-free card and doesn’t benefit teams like Minnesota.

2. If there is no amnesty clause, teams like The Wolves will be able to consider taking on a really good player in a pure salary dump (dumps will have to happen if a hard cap is implemented). As Jerry Zgoda tweeted, how will teams like The Lakers react when they have to pare their $90M payroll down to $70M? Other teams besides the Lakers will be in the same predicament. If The Wolves agree to take on the salary of an Iggy or a Pau, they won’t have to give up a Wes, Beasley or No. 2 pick.

This is all why I fully agree that it’s wise to avoid adding a big contract until the new CBA terms are in place.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

My one caveat would be a reasonably priced vet could benifit us greatly

The rumored ones being Varejoe and Gortat. If we get to send a $4mil salary back to the other team we don’t lose much flexibility wise and still get a lottery pick (based on the rumors I’ve read).

by zebano on Jun 20, 2011 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

I would agree with that

The condition of them taking back a Darko or Flynn would really help. And I think both Gortat and Varejao are great fits here – both are low-usage guys who don’t need to the rock to be successful. Just as importantly both are strong defenders who can rebound. Varejao is an elite defender. Gortat is an elite offensive rebounder.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting side point:

Amnesty Clauses, given that they’re “not fair” in the way you describe, represent something of a negotiated point between owners, as opposed to between the owners and the players.

Last time around the Allan Houston Rule thing allowed teams to buy out players and not have them count against the luxury cap. The players still got their money. That’s basically big market owners getting a “By” that maybe smaller market owners wouldn’t have wanted them to receive.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hyopthetical question....

SnP if we KNEW that the CBA would be the same would you trade the #2 for a Monte or an Iggy?

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Jun 20, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

I gotta say

this topic really made me excited about Irving again. Maybe CLE really does pass him at 1. The question then becomes: does Kahn do something stupid like draft Kanter and pass Irving to UTH just one draft after trading their franchise PG. I think the next pick after the David Kahn Timberwolves might be the best pick in the draft.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 20, 2011 2:20 AM CDT reply actions  

Ouch.
I think the next pick after the David Kahn Timberwolves might be the best pick in the draft.

It’s like drafting, in the car races.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 5:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pau Rumors...

i bet the Lakers bite on that Pau deal if Cleve craps the bed and takes anyone other then Irving…

and with Kobe’s input it would be #2 + Wes Johnson for Pau.

Wolves then try and trade up for Burk or Marshon

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Jun 20, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pau

is too old.

"This town, this night, this crowd
Come on put them up, let me hear it loud"

by Stay classy, Joe. on Jun 20, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wolves draft picks are like new cars: They lose value the moment they’re used.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 20, 2011 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Great post SnP

One of the things I appreciate is that you make the call, no matter how hard it may be. You don’t waffle.

Looking forward to the draft and the new CBA and then trades to figure out where the hell we are 3-4 months from now.

by Django Z on Jun 20, 2011 5:05 AM CDT reply actions  

Draft time really is entertaining....

especially with great analysis like this and others on CH. So, yeah, well done.

Biyombo, Biyombo, Biyombo! He, SnP and the rest of CH, will be this year’s Steph Curry. Prepare to be disappointed when he isn’t a t-wolf. My gut tells me these probabilities of who we draft:

40% Enes Kanter
40% Derrick Williams
9% Kyrie Irving
1% Whoever

Kanter is my least liked option, which is why I expect him to be drafted.

I don’t have a lot of faith in Kahn, but I really doubt he takes on a big contract. It just wouldn’t make sense when compared to all the decisions he has made so far.

by quessa on Jun 20, 2011 5:14 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree

Just have a hunch the team has a real thing for Kanter. It makes no sense whatsoever because he is a terrible fit with Love and he is a very similar player to Vucevic who could potentially be had at 20 and has actually, you know, played in games.

by Vlade on Jun 20, 2011 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great great stuff, as always. You’re really getting even better than you were at this stuff. I’ll be a shame when we finally do move into the playoffs :)

Hope the Wolves drafters are reading this stuff!

by Wim (Belgium) on Jun 20, 2011 7:10 AM CDT reply actions  

SNP- Awesome job!!!!!!!!!

I’m convinced Kahn trades the #2 for Gortat or Gasol and we some how end up picking Michael’s kid at #20 and trading him to Portland for Fernandez.. If that were to happen, the wolve’s future would be bleak.

Sign me up for the Biyombo bandwagon!!!!!!

by mnsportsjunkie on Jun 20, 2011 7:50 AM CDT reply actions  

Klay Thompson doesn't come anywhere close to No. 20

Of all the SG prospects, though, he’s the one I want to the most. Between Klay, Wes and Love, our perimeter shooting woes are over. More importantly, Rubio will excel is he has some legit floor spacers out there.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Nice post. I have no idea what to expect. I could actually see them taking a swing with Selby at 20, though. I’ve heard they’re looking to move that pick, but considering there are probably guys who could immediately make better use of Ellington’s minutes there…

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 20, 2011 8:19 AM CDT reply actions  

Unless there's better value available,

I want Mirotic at No. 20. He’s a Top-10 talent in a good draft. Give him to me… regardless of when he eventually comes across the pond to play in The NBA.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Very talented player

Definitely Toni Kukoc type potential.

by Vlade on Jun 20, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nemanja Bjelica

Speaking of Toni Kukoc, where are we at with Nemanja Bjelica. Is he ever going to pan out for the Wolves?

by Jogger on Jun 20, 2011 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice work, SnP

You obviously put a lot of time into this.

I’m excited for the draft, but don’t really have any idea what to expect. The most-disappointing (of all realistic possibilities) result would be to draft and keep Derrick Williams.

The best, possibly-realistic result would be if we could add Pau Gasol, particularly if we could shed Darko and Flynn in that process.

The trades are going to make this a memorable draft. The draftees just don’t look too good.

by Andy G on Jun 20, 2011 8:36 AM CDT reply actions  

Just watched Gottlieb on ESPN - he has DW as his No. 8 prospect in this draft.

I’m not a huge fan of Gottlieb because he seems to get too cute too often by being contrarian. But, still, I think his concerns about DW are well-founded.

Just another reason why I think laying up right off the tee-box in this draft makes sense. Give me the proven production of a Gortat or Varejao along with a Biyombo/Burks/Klay Thompson/Brooks type of player in the process. I think Biyombo, for example, is just as big of a gamble as DW… we may as well pick up a proven NBA starter in the process.

So I agree – drafting and keeping DW is my least-favorite of all the draft-day possibilities.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Great work, SnP.

If Kahn has meant a single word of what he has said over the past 2 years, he has to be trying to do whatever he can to add Biyombo. We always hear about the absolute need to add an athletic, rim-protecting big that will be an defensive anchor. You have a hard time trading for those guys because the ones good enough to play significant minutes are well paid and highly valued by their teams.

Then comes along a young kid, with the length and athleticism the team has been talking about for 2 years, and he fits in exactly with what Kahn has been calling for, and a true need of this team, and a great fit with Love. He should be a plus rebounder, blocker, and defender. This is pretty much the kid that you’ve been asking for… you just have to actually go out and get it done. You have the 2nd pick and a guarantee that he’ll be available. Don’t get too cute. Don’t over think things. If you can get the 4 and their unprotected 1 from next season, for the 2, do it and draft Bismack.

That said, there is a lot of uncertainty around this draft. Short of getting a chance at Irving and passing, or taking on the wrong overpaid vet straight up for the 2, there isn’t anything that will be an obvious and immediate fail. Taking Kanter at the 2 will be disappointing, especially since it seems to be resetting the Love and Al issue. He also has a very small sample, has skills that will translate a bit more questionably, doesn’t project well at defense, and is earthbound. Most everything else will be a wait and see sort of thing. Though, I’m sure that if the Wolves draft Bismack, the local columnists, as well as the national media, will have field day… I’m sure we’ll hear about Ndudi Edi, and a lot Kahn jokes. But, in the case, I think it’s the right sort of gamble to make for this team… especially if they are truly committed to maximizing Beasley, finding a center to lock down defense, provide athleticism around the rim for put back and oops.

Draft Bismack, find value at #20, or a bit higher if you can package that pick with another asset like Flynn or Pek. Wait for the CBA and try to pick up a veteran 2.

by Krotz the Wall on Jun 20, 2011 9:14 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree

Kanter scares the hell out of me.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 20, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Per ESPN Insider:

Interesting… did Milwaukee initiate the Bogut talks?

The Wolves are talking to a lot of teams, and letting various media-types know it, about the No. 2 pick in the draft. Reportedly the Bucks are one of them and have offered a deal which includes Andrew Bogut to move up from the No. 10 spot.

Darren Wolfson of 1500 ESPN writes: “Multiple sources say the Wolves and Bucks have talked about a trade, with the main pieces being No. 2 for No. 10 and center Andrew Bogut. It’s believed Milwaukee initiated those talks, probably because there is some uncertainty about Bogut’s long-term health.”

Bogut, who has three years and $39 million remaining on his contract, was hindered all of this past season as he recovered from injuries to his right hand, wrist and elbow. He also suffered from chronic migraine headaches.

Bogut had a pretty good season, despite his injuries, and he is hoping his rehab during the summer will help get him back to normal. It’s unlikely a team would trade for him unless he’s healthy and if he’s fit it’s unlikely that Milwaukee would trade the center.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 9:19 AM CDT reply actions  

Bogut's persistent arm injuried concern me, but...

his efficiency, rebounding and ability to take charges and block shots are impressive. Considering that the No. 10 pick could also yield my favorite SG (Klay Thompson) make this deal a slam dunk if it’s legit.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

WTF I find this hard to believe.

Bogut is a stud. Often-injured, but a GREAT Center. I can’t see this happening.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 20, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Some teams are VERY high on Derrick Williams.

And have you seen Milwaukee’s rotation of SF/PF – Drew Gooden, Carlos Delfino, Mbah a Moute, Salmons, Maggette?

A Jennings-Derrick Williams tandem works well moving forward, so it doesn’t seem like a total stretch to me.

by foobee on Jun 20, 2011 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Their SF rotation was very productive last year.

PF, not so much. They were forced to play Mbah a Moute there a lot.
But without Bogut, who is their C?

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 20, 2011 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Wolves have to do this deal if it's available....

The difference between Derrick Williams and Alec Burks is significantly smaller than the difference between Andrew Bogut and whoever else we could get to play the 5 (internally and externally).

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think that’s a decent way of putting it: The Wolves have net drains at the 5, so getting at least competant minutes there alone would be worth a ton, and if their board really has little distinction amongst prospects and they think they’ll get a guy at 10…

That said, I’m not the biggest Bogut fan. I think he’s had one outstanding season two years ago. Outside of that, he’s been good-not-great, although he can anchor a defense. However, he hasn’t played a full season for 3 years now. Factor in that he’s getting $39 million over the next three years…

Put it this way: If the Wolves are thinking along these lines, I’d prefer the Gortat/#13 deal.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 20, 2011 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

+1

This discussion happened in another thread, but my dissenting view is that Gortat provides much better value, especially with uncertainty about the new CBA.

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The fact that Milwaukee is so willing to trade their former Franchise Player is concerning...

But what would you prefer…

Bogut and Burks

or

Gortat and Brooks

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not super high on Burks or Brooks

so I’m not too worried about the drop from 10 to 13. There will be plenty of players I like at 13. And it may be a false choice — there’s talk of Burks dropping a bit.

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think though that if Milwaukee is still there...

They take Burks.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Has Phoenix given any indication that they will be trading Gortat?

I thought they loved him in Arizona with Nash.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know whether it's pure speculation

or semi-informed rumor. But the idea sure gets batted around a lot.

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

From a June 17th Chad Ford Chat
"Phoenix is in hot pursuit of Williams and may have interest in a deal that would send Minnesota center Marcin Gortat and the No. 13 pick for the No. 2 pick and Nikola Pekovic."

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think there is some fire to all of these rumors...

It seems pretty apparent that the Bucks offered up Bogut, the Lakers offered Gasol (for 2 and Love), and that the Wolves have pursued McGee both this year and last year.

In the Gortat trade rumor, Chad Ford’s proposed rumor is a pretty strong indication that Phoenix has either offered the deal, or is floating it out there to guage the Wolves interest.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

It is?

“may have interest” sounds pretty weak to me.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

I “may have interest” in trading Rubio/#2 for Deron Williams.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 20, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

WIth how these things work...

I think the fact that Pekovic specifically is included in this rumor is a pretty strong indication that someone is floated this EXACT trade to Chad Ford.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Whether Ford has good info or not

I think the Phoenix rumor is at least plausible, in that I could see why both teams would want to do it, but it’s not a slam-dunk either way.

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Either trade would be fine with me.

I’ve had my fill of “Manna”, thank you.

Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-lagunga.

by SoDakHmr on Jun 20, 2011 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Centers

Contrary to popular belief, center was not really a weak spot last year. http://www.82games.com/1011/1011MIN5.HTM

We were godawful at the 2 and terrible at the 1 and 3.

by Vlade on Jun 20, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I've noticed that on 82games, and I think it's driven by Love.

If you look at Darko’s and Pek’s pages, they’re way in the hole in terms of PER vs. opponent’s PER. If you go by win shares, Darko was the 2nd worst player in the league last year.

But they give Love 18 percent of the Wolves’ minutes at center, and he absolutely destroys his opponent at that position. So if you want to lean on these stats as an argument for not needing a center, I think you have to want Love to play center (which would be a fine argument).

by Madison Dan on Jun 20, 2011 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Some of it

must also be driven by overhelping on the post from the wing. Many ’a nights when the Wolves were torched from downtown by wing shooters.

by Andy G on Jun 20, 2011 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Our vaunted defensive scheme's head rears again.

Lakers board quote I posted a while ago:

Phil has traditionally delegated the task of designing the defense to an assistant, from Kurt Rambis in ‘08-’09 to a mishmash of assistants the following year to Chuck Person this last season. With the exception of Rambis’ system, which was flawed and figured out by every team after a month into the season who could pass the ball around the perimeter to a shooter, the Lakers’ defensive systems have been fairly solid.

by feral on Jun 20, 2011 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yup

I think you have to play Love at the 5 some given how many teams go small these days. But even if we just look at Darko, he gives up 4.5 in PER against opposing centers – still far less than we gave up at the 1, 2, and 3.

But I think the bigger point is how comically bad we were at the 1, 2, and 3 and aside from adding Rubio, we’re likely not going to address that.

by Vlade on Jun 20, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Seems to me

That a defensive presence in the paint could help both wing players net PER by reducing the difficulty of their defensive assignments. Biyombo?

by stuntmonkeys on Jun 20, 2011 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

What's sort of sad is that, of all the composite metrics

PER is going to be the kindest to Darko because it rewards players who take lots of shots, even if they’re extremely inefficient like Darko. Yet Darko is still in a 4.5-point hole when it comes to net PER. In terms of raw wins produced he was our worst player. In terms of raw win shares, he was among the worst.

We were indeed terrible at the 2 and 3, but most of the damage at the 1 was Flynn (a greater than 10 point PER differential), who we will replace with Rubio.

I can certainly understand giving Love a lot of 5 minutes (paired with Randolph or Tolliver at the 4 to cover stretch bigs) and trying to address the wing. Unfortunately, our current management doesn’t seem to think in those terms, which makes me sort of ok with trying to obtain a 5. I think they’ll try to march a prototypical 5 out there regardless, and I really don’t want that to be Darko or Pek.

Still, you’re totally right that there’s a big hole at the wing, and it really doesn’t seem like Kahn and Ronzone see that as a big priority.

by WolvesFan03 on Jun 20, 2011 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Definitely. That'd be fantastic.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Unfortunately...

This doesn’t do much to curb the “GMs are afraid to deal with Minnesota because we leaks EVERYTHING” rumor that Bill Simmons tweeted the other day.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

On the other hand

GMs love to deal with Kahn because he’s such an idiot. To repeat the Ed Weiland quote from SnP’s most excellent article:

“The point of trading stars for future draft picks is that the future draft picks remake the team into a force again. I’m just not sure the Timberwolves get this.”

by Dave T on Jun 20, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Bogut and the 10 for 2

Burks with 10. This is what I’ve heard from a number of places.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 20, 2011 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Which way do you lean on thie trade options?

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just posted elsewhere

but it’s almost too good a trade. Beasley probably would have to be involved, right? Him and one of the centers going back to the Bucks? That or no 10th pick; just 2 and salary for Bogut.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 20, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I feel like the Bucks offered us *that*....and we haven't said yes yet?

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

There's two legit questions that have to be thought through

1) How reliable is Bogut’s health?
2) Are we willing to pay him $12mil a year under a potentially hard-capped CBA given those health issues?

by Oceanary on Jun 20, 2011 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

This is why,

if the Suns Gortat + 13 deal is on the table as well, it’s probably a better option. But I’d be thrilled to make either of these trades.

by LoveTo on Jun 20, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

suns deal also has significantly less

cash outflows for Glen. Which is a plus for this FO. Maybe enough to convince Glen to can Rambis and hire a replacement?

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 20, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Now you're just getting greedy.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

If the wolves swing a trade for a highly paid vet

you can kiss the hope of the wolves firing Rambis goodbye. There will be no money for it.

No one is getting Rubio's rights unless they pry them from our cold dead fingers.

by TheEvilProfessor on Jun 20, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Mavericks have demonstrated...

That there can be a lot to gain from taking a chance on elite centers with injury risks. When healthy, Bogut at 27 y/o is probably the second best true center in the league, an incredible compliment to Love, and would be the anchor to our defense.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not arguing against the idea

Just saying those are the things the FO is likely thinking through. The new CBA could be a killer. $12 million would be a lot to spend on anyone if the cap dramatically reduces.

by Oceanary on Jun 20, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

I can't imagine that they've formally made the offer

without seeing whether it’s Irving or Williams that falls to the second pick.

If and when this is officially on the table, the Wolves cannot accept it fast enough.

by Andy G on Jun 20, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

It'll be Williams

The Cavaliers have reportedly committed to Irving

by Oceanary on Jun 20, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sure it will be

but I’d guess that the Bucks want to make sure before trading away their best player.

by Andy G on Jun 20, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well so much for that...

From Jerry Zgoda’s Twitter

#Timberwolves probably would do that No 2 for Bogut/No 10 deal in a heartbeat but it ain’t happening from Bucks’ end

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 20, 2011 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

That

sounds about right.

I’d trade them 2 and fillers for Bogut alone, also in a heartbeat. I hope the 10th Pick thing isn’t a sticking point.

by Andy G on Jun 20, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

ditto

start by offering 2 + 20 + Pek for Bogut +10 and modify as needed to get Bogut and either get the 10 or keep the 20.Honestly I would do 2 + 20 + Pek + Beast for Bogut + 10.

by zebano on Jun 20, 2011 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disappointing..

and I also wonder how much fact vs. speculation this is from Zgoda. The fact that this was reported by Chad Ford, Doogie, and corroborated by Stop-n-Pop makes me think there might (shockingly) be some legs to this one.

by LoveTo on Jun 20, 2011 5:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is absolutely what i want.

"This town, this night, this crowd
Come on put them up, let me hear it loud"

by Stay classy, Joe. on Jun 20, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great Post

I agree that Burks shouldn’t be considered in the Top 5 of the draft, but selecting him at 10,11 or 13 in a trade down makes a lot of sense to me. I agree with your suppposition that being in favor of Kanter necessarily means you should be comfortable with Biyombo. With Biyombo starting to slip out of the top 10, there is a lot of room for value here. If we can turn the #2 into some combination of Burks and Biyombo or Kanter I’d be very happy with the outcome of the draft. I prefer Biyombo over Kanter, but see benefits of each.

One player I am very down on that matches with your rankings is Klay Thompson. My brother-in-law goes to school in Pullman and I live an hour way so I caught a lot of Cougar games last year, and I do not think he is a guy who will be successful in the NBA. He had difficulty getting open in the Pac-10 so much so that he would shoot 23 footers because that was the only open shot he could create. His handles are below average, his defense is non-existent, and for a shooter, his shooting isn’t all that impressive. Definite pass on Klay Thompson. His only strength as far as I can tell is height.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 20, 2011 11:35 AM CDT reply actions  

Hollinger's Draft Rater is up...

Just throwin it out there, if somebody with ESPN Insider wanted to post the contents…

by LoveTo on Jun 20, 2011 12:07 PM CDT reply actions  

He puts The Jimmer at the 22nd spot on his borad

Calling him “a third guard or a marginal stater”.

"Off-street parking requirements are a fertility drug for cars." ~Donald Shoup

by Facial on Jun 20, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jon Leuer at 14 makes me think this was his "I'm just kidding" draft board

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Meanwhile, admist Rubio's Beatles-esque arrival and all the draft talk

Jonny Flynn continues to inspire with his tweets:

“#relationshipkillers ladies night”
“#relationshipkillers the ugly friend”
“#relationshipkillers the triangle offense”
“#relationshipkillers vacations…w/o them”

I only made one of those up.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 12:18 PM CDT reply actions  

What is...

…Jonny’s twitter handle?

by twolvesgm on Jun 20, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

@J_Flynn

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

following @j_flynn ....

will make you hate him even more, you have been warned.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Jun 20, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep...

…first two minutes of reading makes me hate him even more.

by twolvesgm on Jun 20, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Every single...

…one of Jonny’s stupid tweets makes me think of Kahn talking about his smile. God help us all on Thursday.

by twolvesgm on Jun 20, 2011 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes.

He is the worst twitter-er ever.

Beas and Love are actually kinda fun, brew was OK, and wes was nothing but the orangemen.

by bustaone on Jun 20, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Beas deleted his account I think

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 20, 2011 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Late to the party, as always...

Thanks for the obvious hours of labor put into the post SnP. Given the dearth of observable gametime for a lot of these players, could Kahn’s tendency to pick a player who is 3 spots lower than our draft position ( I will just say tendency), mean he is somehow more likely to luck into a good pick? I believe that is the best hope for the fanbase, long and athletic with a winning smile is Biyambo!

Timberwolves 2011:
Kahnceptual Performance Art

by Dogpile on Jun 20, 2011 5:02 PM CDT reply actions  

Two All Stars in this draft

About a week and a half ago Givony was asked in a podcast which players in this draft did he think would become all stars — he answered Irving and Biyombo.

by Haze grey on Jun 20, 2011 10:19 PM CDT reply actions  

williams

beasley light at best ………… hit that crack pipe some more. no outside game almost 60% from downtown in college beasley last year late in season went to the line for two free throws beating his chest like he was all that and a bag of chips …. does anyone remember what happened next ? he missed both freethrows then several minutes later chews out teammate on court when it was just as much his fault on the play as well. b-easy can b-gone good individual player lousey teammate …. williams is a leader scorer defender who knocked out duke from tourney ? ohh yeah the arizona wildcats .. who was the cog in that comeback victory ? willams was ohh …. so stop and pop looks like u know very little about willams but your sure throwing him under the bus.remember the vikes had a starting rb but what did they take with the 7th pick in 07? williams is better than any forward on the team atm . love has a little more heart but that still doesnt make up for skill that williams has .

by skol viking on Jun 21, 2011 12:57 PM CDT reply actions  

coack K

coach k has nothing but nice wonderful things to say about williams but author of article i guess is a better evaluater of talent…. hmm coach k i hate him but hes a great coach of young men and our olympic team. guess a blog writer who follows some formula to rate players where is the heart stat from your data wheres your leadership skill eval from data ohhhh im guessing this system would rank sam bouie above mike jordan too … williams is an upgrade to any forward we have minus love , love has grit and determination that make him better than he is but does he make players around him better , love would make a great robin in a batman robin cliche in the nba. williams is a batman type rest of zona team wasnt all that good yet they battled duke and beat them who everyone is stiff wood over some kid who played 11 games in college. thats like drafting a junior qb who had 5 starts in the top 10 .

by skol viking on Jun 22, 2011 12:56 PM CDT reply actions  

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    • BIIYYYOOOMMMBOOOOOOO!!!
    • Estoy llevando mi talento a Minnesota
    • Where sharks do battle with giant eagles
    • You don’t put a saddle and reins on a magical unicorn, you bareback it and put faith in nature
    • Toeing the line between nerd and loser

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    Rviy7fbgmhz5ht2dpgo6q0jfu_small TimAllen

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    Hrbek_small Jon Marthaler