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Projecting Ricky Rubio

Ricky Rubio

 

PG

6'4" 

180lbs

20 years old

 

Images_medium

via t1.gstatic.com

Ricky Rubio.  The Spanish phenom who began playing professional ball in Spain at 14 years old, was an international celebrity, a youtube favorite, an olympic hero, and a household name among NBA fans long before his 18th birthday.  The hype machine is on overload for this prospect.  No man can completely clear his mind of Rubio's flashy passes, catchy name, and floppy hair when trying to project him as an NBA player.  Rubio's uniquely overblown reputation makes careful, sober, objective analysis all the more important.  The numbers don't see any of the flair or hear any of the praise, and thus moreso than for any other prospect, we need to stay grounded in the numbers in assessing Ricky Rubio.  So let's see what those numbers say.     

Star-divide

NBA Projection:

 Ricky's combined pace-adjusted per-36 ACB, Euroleague, and Eurocup statistics for each year:

Age

Team

Poss

Pts

FGA

3PtA

3pt%

eFG%

FTA

FT%

Reb

Ast

Stl

Blk

TO

PF

15

DKV

13

10.8

3.4

1.7

0.74

0.57

6.0

0.57

5.2

3.9

3.9

0.5

4.3

8.2

16

DKV

9

7.9

4.2

2.7

0.26

0.44

3.8

0.68

4.6

4.3

4.6

0.0

2.6

4.6

17

DKV

15

14.5

6.9

3.9

0.31

0.48

6.3

0.79

4.9

6.3

3.4

0.0

3.4

4.0

18

DKV

16

14.3

5.8

3.4

0.42     

0.45

6.1

0.8

4.2

9.1

3.5

0.2

4.8

3.6

19

Barca

12

12.2

6.4

4.6

0.39

0.52

3.9

0.84

4.9

7.8

3.2

0.1

3.5

3.2

20

Barca

11

9.0

5.3

3.6

0.25

0.38

3.7

0.81

5.2

6.4

2.6

0.0

3.1

3.6

Age

Team

PER

WS/40

 

15

DKV

13.3

4.8

 

16

DKV

15.4

7.9

 

17

DKV

19.6

8.8

 

18

DKV

19.4

8.0

 

19

Barca

20.7

9.1

 

20

Barca

14.2

5.9

 




















Minutes -  age 15: 80; age 16: 929; age 17: 1116; age 18: 572; age 19:  1140; age 20: 1236

Looking across the numbers, Ricky has proven throughout his career that he is extraordinarily skilled in three areas.  He has been one of the best passers in the ACB since he turned 17, and has been arguably the top ball-thief and rebounder (at PG) in the second best league in the world since he was a freshman in high-school.  Ricky just seems to see the game one step ahead of everyone else.  He knows where teammates, opponents, and the ball are going to be before anyone else, and uses this skill to collect assists, rebounds, and steals at an extremely high level.

Ricky is not perfect however.  He is a terrible scorer.  Both in terms of volume and efficiency.  He has only had one year since his 80-minute rookie season in which he eclipsed a 50% eFG.  He managed to follow that seeming improvement with a simply embarrassing 38% eFG.  The only real saving grace for Ricky's poor shooting is that he has the good sense not to do it too much.  If he wasn't so good at everything else, Ricky's scoring deficiencies would ensure that he never leaves the bench.  Fortunately for both Ricky and the Wolves, he is so good at everything else in the box score that he deserves to be out on the court.  This is evidenced by his scores in the composite metrics (PER and WS/40) thus far in his career.

There is a popular narrative going around that Rubio's situation in Barcelona has impeded his development (see here for a good example [4]).  To summarize the basic idea, the highly regimented play style of coach Xavier Pascual, and the surplus of league-best talent on Barca has neutered Rubio's role in the offense.  Looking at Rubio's year by year statistics, there seems to be good justification for this theory.  Barca has taken away one quarter of Rubio's per minute possessions, and increased the percentage of those possessions that are used on 3-pointers.  This role change has moved Rubio away from his flashy, freestyle, ball-dominant game with DKV, and lowered the rates for all of his on-ball statistics. 

So yes, it looks like Barcelona has hurt Ricky's numbers, and yes, it would have been nice to see some improvement over the last two years.  However, even if we focus on the numbers Rubio put-up with Barca, he still projects to be a pretty special player.  Even with Barca, Rubio proved to be a dominant off-ball player, leading all ACB point-guards in both steals and rebounds.  Additionally, while his assists have fallen from his ridiculous 2008-09 rate (which was a standard deviation better than the next best player's) Ricky is still top three in the ACB over the last two years.  It isn't all rosy, as is clear when you look at Rubio's terrible scoring statistics, but Rubio does three things: pass, steal, and rebound, better than any point-guard in Europe.

Let's start the comparisons with another young point guard who played in Europe for a year before being drafted six spots after Ricky.  Brandon Jennings:

Brandon Jennings at 19 and Ricky Rubio at 18, both per-36 pace adjusted.

Team

Pos

Pts

FGA

3PtA

3P%

eFG%

FTA

FT%

Reb

Ast

Stl

Blk

TO

PF

BJ

Roma

14

12.1

11.9

4.4

0.23

0.43

2.8

0.73

3.1

3.9

3.4

0.1

2.6

4.1

RR

Barca

16

14.3

5.8

3.4

0.42

0.45

6.1

0.8

4.2

9.1

3.5

0.2

4.8

3.6

 


Team

PER

WS/40

BJ

Roma

13.0

3.0

RR

DKV

19.4

8.0

Minutes -  Brandon Jennings: 773; Ricky Rubio 572

Interestingly, Rubio was actually the far superior scorer.  Ricky scored 2 more points per-36, while taking less than half as many shots.  Rubio also more than doubled Jennings' assists rate and had collected more steals and rebounds.  Meanwhile Jennings was playing in the Italian league, which is considered inferior to the Spanish league.  19 year old Jennings had absolutely nothing on 18 year old Rubio.  It is a similar story if we compare 19 year old Rubio to 19 year old Jennings.    

Let's see how things changed for Jennings when he moved to the NBA. 

Age

Team

Pos

Pts

FGA

3PtA

3P%

eFG%

FTA

FT%

Reb

Ast

Stl

Blk

TO

PF

19

Roma

14

12.1

11.9

4.4

0.23

0.43

2.8

0.73

3.1

3.9

3.4

0.1

2.6

4.1

20

Bucks

20

16.9

16.3

5.2

0.37

0.43

3.7

0.81

3.8

6.3

1.4

0.3

2.7

2.5

Minutes - 19: 773; 20: 2,673

Much of the narrative surrounding Jennings' rookie year was that he performed significantly better in the NBA environment than he did overseas.  Guard-friendly officiating in the NBA allowed Jennings to flourish in a way he never would have in Europe.  Looking at the numbers, this story seems to give NBA-Jennings too much credit.  Instead, it looks like Jennings simply got significantly more minutes per game, was given more possessions during those minutes, and used those possessions more aggressively.  Any increases to Jennings' statistics between Italy and the NBA can be explained by his increased usage or increases expected of every European player coming to the NBA.  Jennings' rebounding increase is perfectly consistent with what Hollinger finds for most players coming from Europe to the NBA [2].  Jennings' increase in assists can be explained by a combination of Hollingers' Euro/NBA conversion combined with Jennings' increased usage.  While Jennings' increased scoring is counter to Hollingers' expectations, it is also unusual for a Euro-rookie to see such a drastic increase in usage and shot attempts.   Really the only improvement evident in  Jennings rookie season was that he managed to maintain his shooting efficiency in the face of the 12% decline experienced by most European players coming to the NBA.  This would be much more impressive if the eFG% he maintained wasn't a measly 43%.

This article isn't about Brandon Jennings, so I will cease my Jennings bashing here.  The point is. if Rubio sees the same increase in usage that Jennings saw coming into the NBA, I can all but guarantee he has a much better rookie season than Jennings did.

 In order to find more fruitful comparisons for Ricky Rubio, we need to look at players already in the NBA.  In order to do this, we need to make some adjustments to Ricky's numbers.  The rules, play-style, and level of competition all affect the way a given player's game translates into the box-score between the NBA and Europe.   As alluded to above, John Hollinger has found that European players moving into the NBA tend to see a large decrease in scoring volume and efficiency, a very large increase in assists, and a modest increase in rebounds.  In order to reliably compare Ricky to NBA players, we need to first identify what his numbers will look like when he comes to the NBA.

NBA/EURO statistical conversion values [2]:

Pts

3PtA

3Pt%

eFG%

FTA

FT%

Rebs

Asts

Stls

Blks

TOs

PFs

0.75

0.73

0.88

0.88

0.95

1.00

1.18

1.31

0.80

1.43

0.79

0.85

 

The conversion value for points, eFG%, rebounds, and assists are taken directly from Hollinger.  Hollinger used a superior method to identify these conversion formulas, so I use his values where I can.  I am still building a data-set that will allow me to find solid conversions for the other statistics.  However, until I have enough data to actually look at all player transfers from Europe to the NBA, I need to improvise.  So instead, I simply took the mean values from all players in both the NBA and Europe across 3 seasons, and divided the NBA mean by the Euro mean for each statistic. 

This might seem like a poor methodology given that it ignores the superior skill and athleticism of the opponents a European encounters after crossing the pond.  However, I have some reason for tentative confidence in these values.  Primarily because this method almost perfectly recovered the conversion values that Hollinger found for both assists and rebounds.  Rebounding and distributing seem to be skills that players either have or don't have.  This may or may not be true for some of the other non-scoring statistics (Stls, Blks, TOs PFs), but for now these conversion values are the best I have.

So how do Rubio's European-statistics translate using this Euro-to-NBA conversion?

Age

Min

Pos

Pts

FGA

3Pt%

eFG

FTA

FT%

TOT

Asts

Stls

Blks

TOs

PFs

15

80

13

8.1

7.4

64.8%

0.50

5.7

56.7%

6.2

5.1

3.1

0.6

3.4

7.0

16

929

9

5.9

6.0

23.3%

0.39

3.7

67.9%

5.5

5.7

3.7

0.0

2.1

3.9

17

1116

15

10.9

10.9

27.4%

0.42

6.0

79.1%

5.8

8.3

2.7

0.0

2.7

3.4

18

572

16

10.8

11.0

37.1%

0.40

5.8

78.9%

5.0

11.9

2.8

0.2

3.8

3.1

19

1140

12

9.1

8.7

34.5%

0.46

3.7

84.4%

5.8

10.2

2.6

0.2

2.8

2.7

20

1236

11

6.7

8.2

22.2%

0.33

3.6

80.5%

6.1

8.4

2.1

0.0

2.5

3.1

 

It looks like we can pencil Ricky in for at least 5 rebound and 8 assists per 36 minutes.  Hollinger looked at actual cross-league player transfers to identify the conversion metric used for rebounds and assists, so the conversion values are valid.  Additionally, both rebounding and assisting are highly consistent across careers, and production in these areas, even in a vastly inferior league, is highly predictive of NBA production (r^2 or 0.83 and 0.88 from NCAA to NBA for rebounds and assists respectively [3]), so the results of this statistical conversion are also highly reliable for boards and assists.  Based on these factors I feel pretty comfortable penciling Rubio in for at least 5 rebound and 8 assists per-36.

The conversion values for steals, turnovers, and personal fouls were obtained using my inferior method.  In addition, the skills that lead to these three statistics are not necessarily the same in the NBA as in other leagues.  The r^2 for steals, turnovers, and personal fouls NCAA to NBA are 0.60, 0.45, and 0.44 respectively [3].  Thus, even if we have perfect trust in my conversion value, our prediction for these statistics has quite a bit of error in it (note: this error could go either up or down with equal likelihood.)  So, Ricky could definitely put up over 2 Stls, 2.5 TOs, and 3Pfs per 36 minutes next year, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

The conversion value for points and eFG% were both obtained using Hollinger's method.  This means that we can be comfortable with the values above as the anchor for projecting Rubio's scoring statistics.  However, both scoring and scoring efficiency are extremely difficult to predict across leagues (r^2 = 0.34 and r = 0.24 NCAA to NBA respectively, [3,5])  This means that Rubio's actual scoring and scoring efficiency could be considerably higher or considerably lower than the stats projected above.  Even though scoring is tough to predict across leagues, it is hard to imagine Rubio scoring more than 10-12 points per-36, and he is likely to score considerably less.  It is also unlikely that Rubio will be anything but highly inefficient when he does score.  Of course, this could all be very wrong if Rubio sees an increase in usage similar to what Jennings did.  If he does, who knows what his numbers will look like.     

So how do these numbers compare to NBA players past and present?  Let's start with the two numbers I feel safest projecting.  Which players in NBA history have managed to put up 8 assists and 5 rebounds per game before their 22nd birthday?

Name

Pts

FGA

3PtA

3P%

eFG%

FTA

FT%

Reb

Ast

Stl

Blk

TO

PF

Magic

21

15.4

0.4

0.18

0.54

4.5

0.76

8.4

8.3

3.3

0.7

3.8

2.6

Westbrook

16.9

14.8

1.3

0.22

0.43

4.2

0.78

5.1

8.3

1.4

0.4

3.4

2.6

J. Kidd

12.4

11.6

3.5

0.27

0.43

2.6

0.70

5.8

8.2

2

0.3

3.4

2

 

Gaze for a moment at how awesome Magic Johnson was.  Now that we have done that, it is clear I need to factor in Rubio's poor scoring if I want to find a realistic NBA comparison.  If we further discriminate by eliminating any players that score more than 15 points per-36, and expand our age requirement  to all players under 23 we are left with:

21 year old Jason Kidd

229740_display_image_medium

via cdn.bleacherreport.net

 

22 year old Rajon Rondo

120209_rondo_medium

via sportsofboston.com

and 22 year old Nate McMillan

Nate_2bmcmillan_2bplayer_medium

via 2.bp.blogspot.com

 

Name

Pts

FGA

3PtA

3P%

eFG%

FTA

FT%

Reb

Ast

Stl

Blk

TO

PF

Rondo

13.0

10.3

0.7

0.31

0.54

3.7

0.64

5.7

9.0

2.0

0.1

2.8

2.6

McMillan

6.8

5.5

0.1

0.00

0.47

2.6

0.62

6.0

10.6

2.3

0.8

2.8

4.3

J. Kidd

12.4

11.6

3.5

0.27

0.43

2.6

0.70

5.8

8.2

2.0

0.3

3.4

2.0

Rubio 18

10.8

11

2.5

0.37

0.40

5.8

0.79

5.0

11.9

2.8

0.2

3.8

3.1

Rubio 19

9.1

8.7

3.4

0.35

0.46

3.7

0.84

5.8

10.2

2.6

0.2

2.8

2.7

Rubio 20

6.7

8.2

2.6

0.22

0.33

3.6

0.81

6.1

8.4

2.1

0.0

2.5

3.1

 

Rondo, McMillan, and Kidd have all proven to pass and rebound as good as anyone in the NBA throughout their careers.  Interestingly, all three are also extremely talented ball-thieves, something that they share with Rubio, but not something that I included in the player comparison search.  There really seems to be some underlying ability that helps produce assists, steals, and rebounds which all four of these players share.  The other trait shared by Rubio's three player comparisons is defense.  Rondo, McMillan, and Kidd are each arguably the best defensive point-guard of their respective generations.  Their outstanding stealing and rebounding prowess likely has a lot to do with this, but each is also well regarded as a man defender.  Scouts have lauded Rubio's man defense in Spain, but it remains to be seen if he is all-NBA defense material.

Physically, Rubio has a lot in common with both Kidd and McMillan.  All three are tall for point guards at around 6'4".  Rubio is clearly the skinniest of the three, but he has put on some bulk since he was drafted, and is likely to continue to fill-out.  All three players are considered excellent athletes.  Unfortunately, it is hard to identify how well they match up in terms of speed and quickness without combine numbers, and that data isn't available for any of them.  Rondo is clearly the shortest of the four players at 6'1", but his freakishly long arms and unequaled quickness likely limit the importance of that distinction.

Each of these three players would be a really exciting outcome for Rubio, and based on his projected NBA statistics, each of these three players is also well within his reach.  Even at 18 years old Rubio was putting up numbers that place him in the same class as the 21 year old Jason Kidd, and the 22 year old Nate McMillan and Rajon Rondo.  His assists rebound and steals are consistently as good or better than each of these three players.  His scoring volume is right in the same range, but he will need to improve on his efficiency to reach even the low bar set be this trio.

So while Ricky Rubio himself may think he is, "Ricky Rubio", and "not like anyone else", the numbers tell a different story.  Rubio may actually be the latest incarnation of a particular player-type that comes along once every generation.  The defensive point guard who generates possessions by collecting rebounds and steals better than anyone else in the league, and maintains possessions through upper-echelon ball-handling and passing.

 

Ricky Rubio may also be something much less impressive....

Age

Team

Pos

Pts

FGA

3PtA

3P%

eFG%

FTA

FT%

Reb

Ast

Stl

Blk

TO

PF

18

Estud

15.2

14.6

11.1

3.1

0.29

0.50

3.1

0.63

3.1

6.0

2.1

0.0

3.9

3.4

19

Estud

16.2

12.6

11.3

3.3

0.23

0.40

3.2

0.60

3.7

7.0

2.0

0.1

4.7

3.6

SERGIO RODRIGUEZ  6'3" Spanish PG

18

DKV

16.0

10.8

11

2.5

0.37

0.40

5.8

0.79

5.0

11.9

2.8

0.2

3.8

3.1

19

Barca

12.0

9.1

8.7

3.4

0.35

0.46

3.7

0.84

5.8

10.2

2.6

0.2

2.8

2.7

RICKY RUBIO  6'4" Spanish PG

 

However, since Rubio is already on the team, I'm not going to dwell on any negative projections.        

 

Final player comparison verdict:

Sergio Rodriguez  <------- Rondo/McMillan --> Jason Kidd

 

Fit:

The Timberwolves have been in desperate need of a quality point guard for many years.  The Jonny Flynn experiment has failed hard, and while I like Ridnour, he isn't the kind of point guard that can move the ball around, help out off-ball, and generally "make the players around him better."  Rubio potentially offers that skill-set, and if there is anything the players on our team need, it is to be made better.

I would like to see the Timberwolves give Rubio a lot of possession and a great deal of creative freedom.  I am really curious to see if he can inject some energy into our consistently lifeless offense.  Run pick-n-rolls with Love, Beasley, and Adolph, hit Wes for open jumpers or catch him cutting to the basket...  Anything but the stagnant pound the ball for 24 seconds then chuck up a shot which we have become accustomed to.

My one concern with Rubio as a fit with Minnesota has nothing to do with how Rubio will help the Wolves, but instead has to do with what the Wolves might do to Rubio.  Namely, the Rambis effect.  Many have deemed Rambis as responsible for Flynn's failures thus far in the NBA, this may be true, but the clearest evidence of Rambis' negative effect on young point-guards was seen with Ramon Sessions.    

Ramon Sessions' NBA career:

Year

League

Team

GP

Min

Asts/36min

PER

WP48

2007/08

NBA

Bucks

17

26.3

10.2

16.3

0.239

2008/09

NBA

Bucks

79

27.5

7.38

17.5

0.198

2009/10

NBA

Timberwolves

82

21.1

5.13

12.8

0.042

2010/11

NBA

Cavaliers

81

26.3

6.93

18.9

0.189

 

Sessions is actually a reasonably similar player to Rubio.  He is a good sized point guard that cannot shoot to save his life, but makes up for it with assists and rebounds.  I can understand why Taylor may not want to pay a new coach to come in for an abbreviated lock-out season, but the potential damage that Rambis could do to Rubio needs to factor into the equation.

Assuming Rambis is gone by the time next season starts, I think Rubio is an ideal fit for this team.  He can be a focal point of the offense, without needing to actually carry the scoring load.  He is also likely to help patch-up our atrocious perimeter defense.  Ricky Rubio will make a great Timberwolf.

 

Conclusion:

Ricky Rubio will almost certainly be a good player.  He does three very important things: assisting, rebounding, and stealing better than any point guard in Europe, and will likely translate these skills to the NBA.  If Rubio manages to establish himself as a lock-down defender, and/or finds a way to score efficiently, he will be a great player.  I am excited to see what Rubio does if and when he is given a high-usage role with the Wolves.  If he can excel early on while seeing 20+ possessions a game, I wager he is destined for stardom.

I'm probably being a bit over-optimistic, but it is hard not to be.  The guy is young, proven successful, and fun to watch.  I don't get many opportunities to say this, but right now is a good time to be a Wolves fan.

 

Allow me to summarize my projection for Rubio's future with the Wolves in a picture:

Agwmch_medium

via i.imgur.com

 

References:

1. Draft Express

2. John Hollinger

3. Jon Nichols

4. Rafael Uehara

5. Courtside Analyst

6. Basketball-Reference

Comment 450 comments  |  61 recs  | 

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Wow Man

I’m excited all over again; thanks

This really is parallel to the addition of Garnett to this team. We will be fundamentally different.

I wish I didn’t, but – I fully agree that Rambis either needs to make a public change of approach to the game, or be let go – and quickly!

by zero_on_up on Jun 6, 2011 1:26 AM CDT reply actions  

I do wish to recongnize, however:

A big part of the problem with Rambis’ system, to date, is the lack of a PG with the fully aware skills to essentially make all the decisions for him.

*If Rubio can translate his skills quickly, he may be the perfect trancendental guy to bring order to our planned chaos.

If Rambis can commit to keeping a tighter rotation, I might even be inclined to keep him.. And realistically that is bound to happen..

by zero_on_up on Jun 6, 2011 1:33 AM CDT reply actions  

A gallon of respect to you vjl.

Now please excuse me as I get that picture tattooed across my chest.

by BeasleBong on Jun 6, 2011 1:36 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Superb.

Very excited to see what he can do in the NBA. I would love to comment further, but I’m still digesting all of that.

"95% of what I did was 100% legal."

by nodnarb on Jun 6, 2011 1:58 AM CDT reply actions  

Fantastic article, nicely done.

I’m really hoping this CBA crap is sorted quickly, I’m looking forward to seeing this guy as a Wolf.

Live And Stupid From England

by JonesTheCat on Jun 6, 2011 2:14 AM CDT reply actions  

that chick in the picture has some pretty large feet

I wonder what they’d look like covered in corn beef hash.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 6, 2011 3:27 AM CDT reply actions  

Isn't King of the Hill on late at night any more?

You can always stream that episode on Netflix, or something.

by feral on Jun 6, 2011 4:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think it's still on Cartoon Network Adult Swim

The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman

by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 6, 2011 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

that chick in the picture has some pretty large feet

it looks like he is bangin’ a cougar with big paws, while, uh, " thinking about baseball"…
oh wait, that’s a wolf. rrrricky, you dirty dawg.
.

phuckin' machine took my quarter.

by speed-racer on Jun 6, 2011 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great article, thanks for the enthusiasm boost

I think the Nate McMillan comparison is pretty apt – not a scorer, but a nice balanced two way player who may be a triple-double threat on his best days.

I’m looking forward to seeing a defender at the 1 as well as a great distributor who can run the break. I love his steals p/36, too – it would nice if a Wolves game could have a respectable turnover differential at least once next season. Pick and rolls with Beas and Randolph, and the Rubio/Love top of the key pick and pop with spaced shooters could be a nightmare to defend.

(Also, holy **** Magic Johnson was amazing. 21,8,8 & 3? Gaze and be awed. This was your daily dose of obvious.)

Climbing Broke Back Mount Everest - T'Wolves 10/11

by Malastare on Jun 6, 2011 4:34 AM CDT reply actions  

yes, but

can RR do a between the legs backward pass to the trailing 3-point shooter?

by Jomall on Jun 6, 2011 5:49 AM CDT reply actions  

Jonny

Is that you?

"95% of what I did was 100% legal."

by nodnarb on Jun 6, 2011 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh god

I remember that play.

Climbing Broke Back Mount Everest - T'Wolves 10/11

by Malastare on Jun 6, 2011 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I remember 2

In the golden state game that Wes lit it up he passed to Wes who made the 3 while laughing because he did not expect that. Also in the detroit game to AR (I think) for a layup. AR did not see it coming but still made the shot.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Jun 6, 2011 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

In the most rec'd post ever

is this the most rec’d one word comment ever?

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 6, 2011 10:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

The most accurate part of this projection is unquestionalby the first picture

I project that Rubio will have no problem finding women willing to…sit on his lap, shall we say.

Seriously, well done piece. McMillan is an interesting comp, because from a style point of view they are completely different players. McMillan was solid, but had no flair, whereas Rubio obviously has a lot of flair. I think the key will be on the defensive end, as you point out. If he is able to combine his passing and ball handling skills with good defense, he will be a very good player; if the defense doesn’t translate, it will be more Sergio Rodriguez.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 6, 2011 8:16 AM CDT reply actions  

Everyone raves about the kid's D

Coach K was drinking the Rubio-Kool-Aid like nobodies business after they played him saying his defense was unreal for a kid his age.

I think 2011 Jason Kidd is proving that you don’t have to be a freak to be a great defensive player. So even if Rubio is as slow and plodding as 2011 Kidd, if he has the smarts to get away with the D he still could be a solid defensive player

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

He’s got very good anticipation, and he isn’t slow. Not the quickest guy around, but not plodding either. It remains to be seen how it translates.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 6, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah I just don't buy into the whole "not athletic enough" worry

I used Kidd earlier, and he probably has been the 2nd best defensive player in the playoffs behind Lebron.

Smart players generally lead to good team defense as well. I’m excited.

I obviously don’t know what is going to happen but I think a lot of the worries of Rubio are a little over blown because it’s the Wolves.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wait, that’s not the couple from"Twilight?"

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 6, 2011 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great Job...

What a good post. I’m sure Kahn crunched these numbers as well which is why he was so excited for Rubio.

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 6, 2011 8:26 AM CDT reply actions  

Thanks for another insightful post

If this guy can write for the st cloud times, you could probably steal his job.

by Waucckhewww on Jun 6, 2011 8:37 AM CDT reply actions  

Wow. Unreadable.

by fanslaststand on Jun 6, 2011 8:48 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I took journalism classes with that guy

He was the sports editor for the SCSU Chronicle, and his work reminds me that even though I didn’t take that career path, it wouldn’t be tough for me to go back to it (if it were actually something with good future prospects).

The good news is hopeful doesn't mean dumb. The bad news is cynical doesn't mean smart. -- Sarah Silverman

by pagingstanleyroberts on Jun 6, 2011 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

My sympathies.

Im curious as to what he said about writing biased uninformed articles.

by Waucckhewww on Jun 6, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow...

how many times can a guy use contractions and the word “basically” in one piece? What garbage.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 6, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

This guy obviously reads Plaschke a lot

One-sentence paragraphs all day, baby!

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross

by doubleteapot on Jun 6, 2011 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Basketball IQ: Kidd, Mcmilliam, Rondo

you questioned that there must be some underlying skill that causes players to pass, defend and rebound well and isn’t it obvious that the thing all these players you compared to Rubio have is they are all insanely high IQ players?

If there is one thing I have been noticing in the past couple years is that Basketball IQ absolutely transfers, the smartest players always at least keep that trait, even if they aren’t athletic enough to be super stars (Curry, Battier, Love) they are still borderline All-stars and at worse excellent role players.

Rubio seems to have that sixth sense and nothing is going to be prettier than watching Love and Rubio play on the same team….now if only we could have gotten that Curry kid…

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 8:57 AM CDT reply actions  

...iq is one thing, skill is another, but how you combine and apply them is key.

rondo’s best plays are the most subtle one’s. he controls the game with a glance sometimes.

phuckin' machine took my quarter.

by speed-racer on Jun 6, 2011 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks VJL

Great Read! I’m more optimistic now than ever about being a Wolves fan. Can’t wait for Rambis to get canned and let this team play.

by twolf1 on Jun 6, 2011 9:09 AM CDT reply actions  

Random Thoughts

1. I think Rubio’s best defensive comp is actually a Modern Day Jason Kidd. Kidd is an extremely Off-Ball defender. Kahn might have been on to something with the idea of pairing Rubio with a Speedy SG Type who could handle defensive assignments on quick PG’s. Kahn made a poor choice of Jonny Flynn for such a role. I realize this could hurt Rubio’s steals numbers but I’m thinking the athleticism isn’t there to go toe to toe with Russell Westbrook or D. Rose. Monta Ellis could potentially be a perfect running mate for Ricky.

2. Everytime I think of Ricky I can’t escape the horrid shooting numbers. This is really what it will all boil down to at the NBA Level. If Ricky shoots like he has this season- he’s a bust. If Ricky shots like Last Season- he’s potentially a star.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Jun 6, 2011 9:16 AM CDT reply actions  

I still don't get the fascination with an Ellis/Rubio back court

Unless Ellis has developed a willingness to not hog the ball, take bad shots, move with out the ball and run off of a billion screens I don’t really see the fit.

On a pure talent stand point he is an upgrade, yes

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

He's not an ideal fit

But it’s worth noting that Monta was at his most dangerous playing primarily off the ball with Baron Davis. Monta’s Defensive liabilities are also influenced by the huge number of minutes- the Warriors have him play. I wish he shot the ball better but if he’s paired with Wes Johnson and Kevin Love. This shouldn’t be as much of an issue.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Jun 6, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Few more things

1. Ellis would probably be more effective guarding 1’s this makes him a decent pairing with Ricky.

2. As far as high-usage Offensive Options. I’m not sure where a better one is going to come into play. A dream draft scenario would have the team coming away with both a High Usage 2 Guard Type along with Bismarck Biyombo for reasons stated below.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Jun 6, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that sounds good to me.

Also, post-moped injury, Monta has been improving as a three-point shooter. Over the last two seasons he has increased his percentage while also increasing his frequency of attempts from three. If that trend continues for even one more season (he’s still only 25) he will be quite good as a perimeter shooter and approaching 40 percent with volume in attempts.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo + Kevin Martin

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

How?

Everyone always says Kevin Martin but assuming we draft Byiombo 2nd how do we get KMart?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Beasley, Pekovic, #20, and filler.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

They were rumored to be offering the #14 last year for the rights to Pekovic.

While Pekovic showed throughout the season that he has a fair amount of adjusting to the NBA left to do, he still has the skills necessary to be a productive center in the league. Beasley isn’t as productive as Martin is, but he’s less expensive for now and much younger. This trade would give them 2 potential starters for the next 5-10 years, plus the #20 and Lazar Hayward or Wayne Ellington or both, in exchange for an above average starter whose usefulness to them is capped at about 5-7 years – during which they will not be able to make any legitimate push for a championship without getting incredibly lucky in the lottery.
Kevin Martin has more value to our team than to theirs, and Pekovic and Beasley have more value to their team than to ours. Seems like a win-win situation.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 7, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice rationalization

But I still don’t think it would have any chance.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 7, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

High usage offensive options - give Beasley one more shot?

the question is whether Beasley can man up and go inside more often and whether Rubio can help facilitate this process. He certainly has the mentality and shot creating abilities to be that guy.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I like the idea of Beasley as the 6th man a bit more. Wes should start at the 3 as his shooting would help cover for Rubio?

by Blond Ricky on Jun 6, 2011 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd rather see Beas setting more screens and catching more passes

than dribbling so much. An offense built around Rubio and Monta creating would seem better than one with Beasley creating. No reason Beasley can’t be out there to finish plays, but he was called on to create off the dribble more than he should have been, last year.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

But with Rubio at the point

perhaps there is more high screen and roll as opposed to isolating him 20-feet away from the hoop and clearing out.

I don’t know….Wade is a supreme scorer and playmaker and it didn’t seem like Beasley benefited much from him either, so it may all just be hopeless.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wade

Scorer 1st, playmaker 2nd. Rubio will be looking for ways to help Beasley score.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is definitely the opposing viewpoint

Can we trust Beasely to develop into that player, or do we pay to acquire someone like Ellis. Beasely was already the better isolation scorer than Ellis last season, I probably favor holding on to him and taking a holding pattern on acquiring Ellis. Unless Beasely’s trade value allows us to flip him for something else, I would probably pass on Ellis.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

AR is a bit of a wild card too

He averaged 21 points per 36 minutes with even better efficiency than Beasley (yet still not great efficiency). He could be a mismatch nightmare and a top target for Rubio. If Rubio is as brilliant of a passer that he seems capable of being, you’d think we could get these guys some easier looks so that they don’t have to create every damn shot for themselves.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

He was working out with JB Bickerstaff the other day

I wonder how long that can last—til the end of the playoffs? Anyway, good to see him working hard on his game, right away.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

He really still has phenomenal upside

It’s just a matter of putting it all together and maturing. It may never happen, but man, he has some sick tools.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, he does.

My one and only disappointment in his limited sampling last year was that he struggled to defend and box out Gortat. If he could be that Camby-type of center, we would have struck gold with that pick-up. But, he does give us depth and some insurance against Love demanding a trade or otherwise leaving the club.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ya

Lots of teams would love a Camby-type center. :)

by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jun 6, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nice nugget

Very good to see. As a guy with an immature reptuation who has been traded twice in 12 months, it’s a good to see he’s working on his game rather than taking the summer off.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Looked like a lot of pick-and-pop shooting drills. Bosh-on-the-Heat type of action.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Re: shooting

The shooting will probably always be his Achilles, much like how KG could never take over games in the last minute or two. Maybe it’s right, maybe it’s wrong, but it’s the soundbite that will follow until disproven.

One thing that did occur to me while reading this is how Rubio grew up as a shooter playing against professional men. I guess what I’m simply observing is that had Rubio been a US player he would have been developing his shot against high school kids. Such an experience may have been really helpful for Rubio, if you buy into Malcom Gladwells notion that you need 10,000 hours or reps at something to be any good at it. Playing against high school kids and in AAU ball Rubio would have shot the ball 15-20 times a night, simply because he was better than everyone else and because his teammates wouldn’t be good enough to handle all his passes. In other words, he could have double the FGAs he does now, which is double the opportunity to fail and learn how and when to shoot. Also, I would think his confidence would be higher playing against teenagers instead of men.

Having said all that, I think it’s a credit to the kid for playing to his strengths and for using FTAs to boost his scoring numbers. He strikes me as a Love type free throw drawer, not a Wade type, in that you kinda don’t notice him going to the line until you see on the screen that he’s 6-7 on the night from the stripe and ask yourself, ‘when did he get all those?’

by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jun 6, 2011 11:47 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Random Thoughts

1. I see Beasley’s upside as a 6th Man/Instant Offense type. I see him as too turnover prone to be much more in the long-term. I also think his defense probably merits him in a role like this in the long-term.

2. I’ve stated why I wouldn’t mind looking at Ellis to pair with Rubio. I just would like to see a perimeter player with Ball-Handling Skills who can carry a reasonable load of the Offense. Wes Johnson doesn’t qualify.

3. I’m as unsure as anyone where Anthony Randolph fits in long-term. I wouldn’t mind seeing more of Love at the 5 with Randolph at the 4. But I realize this thought isn’t novel.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Jun 6, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Although I'm excited to see Rubio play next season

I will experience a heaving feeling of dread if Rambis is still coaching the team. This dream stems from me believing that there are no changes assistant coaches or offensive/defensive strategies that will turn Rambis into a good coach. If Rambis is around next season will feel like a waste of time.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 6, 2011 9:18 AM CDT reply actions  

Lol this is amazing

It’s funny how quick I forget about 2009-2010

Man that was awful.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

STOPS!!

This account is to be used solely for recommending sbjake's Fan Posts.

by PoorDick on Jun 6, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Case. Closed.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Jun 6, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I realize that this hardly makes up for the littany of offenses Rambis inflicted upon us

but he did run a lot more high pick and roll action last year than in the year prior, especially when Darko wasn’t playing.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Now I'm hearing that Rubio

wants us to use his draft pick on some kid named Starbury….

[deleted after giving it further thought]

by TMiss on Jun 6, 2011 9:31 AM CDT reply actions  

This post is a great example of why I come to this blog nearly every day. Outstanding analysis.

by mnlawyer on Jun 6, 2011 9:55 AM CDT reply actions  

An incredible analysis

Top shelf stuff here. Is there some sort of CH honorary doctorate degree that can be bestowed on VJ?

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

He got some twitter love too

from a couple different sources praising his analysis

When you're rich you don't write checks...Straight Cash Homey!

by NuthinBurger on Jun 6, 2011 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Twitter love

has an entirely different connotation now that Weiner has admitted that the member in question belongs to a member of the House.

"Humor is reason gone mad." Marx (Groucho, for the reason-gone-mad impaired)

by uncle rico on Jun 6, 2011 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Damn...

….you beat me to the wiener joke.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

bang up job

this post is as good as that chick’s feet are huge

by mayorhoiberg on Jun 6, 2011 10:01 AM CDT reply actions  

Well, you know

what they say: Big feet, big . . . waitaminute . . .

This account is to be used solely for recommending sbjake's Fan Posts.

by PoorDick on Jun 6, 2011 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Shoes.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Jun 6, 2011 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

vagina.

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Jun 6, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well,

since you went there . . .

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Jun 6, 2011 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rubio offensively

I wonder if he either has the Rondo/Kidd/Nash/Parker near the basket touch or not.

Those floaters and layups that they can position perfectly so they don’t get blocked.

The full court game could really up his field goal percentage if he is good finishing in transition.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 10:03 AM CDT reply actions  

Rondo/Nash/Parker, Ricky is probably not...

But I think Kidd’s “near the basket touch” is largely a figment of how freaking good he is at everything else (including turning himself into a dead-eye spot shooter after the age of 30, which is a borderline miracle given how he shot early in his career).

I think we all forget that Kidd’s career FG% is only .401, and that he shot .385 (while earning co-rookie of the year with a ridiculously good pre-injury Grant Hill), .381, .403 his first three years in the league (including more than 1,000 FGA).

Kidd’s best eFG% season before he turned into a three-point specialist for the Mavs at age 35 was .475, and Rubio topped that twice in the past four seasons in ACB/Euroleague play.

Granted, the likelihood that Rubio will be SO good at everything other than scoring that he’ll be a ROY, all-star level player without being able to shoot at all (after his ROY season, Kidd was an all-star in year two, a season he shot 38% from the field) is pretty low, but I do think that he is that kind of non-scoring-star, just maybe not quite to Kidd’s degree; this is why I’ve always believed that Kidd IS the Rubio comp.

Kudos to vjl110, though, for pointing out Nate McMillan as another strong comp, however, which hadn’t occurred to me because Big Nate ended up playing quite a bit on the wing as GP came to dominate the PG spot late in Nate’s career with the Sonics, and because he never had those horrific, sub-40% FG-shooting season like Kidd did early in his career. But if Ricky limits his scoring attempts as much as McMillan did initially (he only took 4.2 and 6.0 FGA/gm his first two years, while averaging 28 and 30 min.) I think a FG% in Nate’s .475 range is certainly possible (although I’m definitely not counting on it). First-two-years McMillan made Kidd and Rondo look like volume shooters…

by LA_33 on Jun 6, 2011 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Bottom line

Rubio needs to be surrounded by scorers, shooters, and finishers. Limiting his FGAs makes a low eFG% somewhat harmless, assuming the slack is being picked up by those around him.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good thing

We have Beasley, Love, Wes, AR, Martell, Pek, and Tolliver – all players with either legit three point range, a pension for scoring, or the athleticism to cut to the basket and throw it down. Scoring, per se, is not this team’s issue. We still need a late game iso scorer, but Rubio may give the gift of improved efficiency to everyone on this team, and if you’ve ever played around with PER or WS, improving efficiency just a little can make a huge difference in a players value.

by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jun 6, 2011 11:57 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I wouldn't be quite so sure about Rubio not making the all-star team in his second season.

While I agree that it is unlikely his overall production will be on an all-star level, the starters for the all-star game are selected by fan voting. If Rubio is a very exciting player to watch (this is a possibility because of the flair to his game) he may get votes from a lot of casual fans that want to see what he can do in a defense-free environment (such as the all-star game). Furthermore, he’s definitely got that boyish charm and pretty face that might result in a lot of votes for him coming out of the woodwork (e.g: young women who go to/watch games with their boyfriends, and the Spanish contingent – potentially similar to how all of China votes for Yao Ming). It’s a long shot that he’ll be an all star his second season, but I wouldn’t write it off completely just yet.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

so what you ar saying is that...

you think he could make the all-star team and it wouldn’t mean anything and you think he is sexy?

phuckin' machine took my quarter.

by speed-racer on Jun 6, 2011 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Only the All-star starters are selected by the fans

There are two fan-voted all-star spots for guards in the Western Conference, and I’m pretty sure that Rubio will never be selected over Kobe while he’s still in the league, and Chris Paul has consistently received top-5 fan voting, too. Rubio would also be dealing with Nash and fellow Spanish-speaker Ginobili among established stars, and other emerging guards like Westbrook. If he gets an All-star selection early in his career, even via fan vote, he’s going to have to earn it.

by LA_33 on Jun 7, 2011 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

As someone who has been somewhat skeptical of Rubio

This was an encouraging post to read. It’s always been hard for me to believe that we were sitting on the next Kidd/Rondo, but you make one of the more compelling statistical cases I’ve seen for it.

Rubio’s inefficiency is still troubling as it leaves him much less margin for error. He’ll have to be as good as you’re projecting off-the-ball to be a high quality player. On the bright side, he seems to understand his limitations (low usage), so at the very least he doesn’t seem predisposed to cutting into his own value by chucking at an unconscionable rate.

by WolvesFan03 on Jun 6, 2011 10:09 AM CDT reply actions  

Terrific post! VJ

Very heartening – can’t wait for the season. Like many I have had some concerns about his apparent regression this year. I have heard rumors of a foot injury – anyone have any info on that? Also, them knowing he was gone in a year or two had to affect the place he had on the team in terms of looking at the future. Could very well have been the reason he didn’t start.

Another thought: I am struck by the gulf between he free throw percentage (80%) and his very poor from the field percentage. It gives me some hope that he can improve dramatically from the field if he focuses on that. I also wonder how often the ball was in his hands as the clock wound down, thus forcing him to put up a contested or bad shot.

I share the common concern about Rambis being a poor coach for Rubio and pray we get a coach that uses his immense potential. It will also take some patience too, I think. My main concern this first year is his stamina over 82 games playing against more physical players. Still, should be a fun trip!

by Jogger on Jun 6, 2011 10:35 AM CDT reply actions  

I give that write up 5 Basketballs (out of 5)

Two take aways for me going forward would be….

He needs a mentor, and not even a mentor who plays….do we have that person in the organization? Darrick Martin, Ridnour, JB….confidence in any of these guys?

even money he gets Wes Johnson and 4:1 he gets Martell Webster a spot in the 3 point shooting contest….drift to the corner and swish, skip pass 3rd option on the PnR and swish …all….game…..long.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Jun 6, 2011 10:56 AM CDT reply actions  

BTW:

Using my admittedly uncertain conversion values, here is how Bimack Biyombo’s year in the ACB translates into the NBA.

Bismack Biyombo per-36, pace-adjusted, NBA converted:
League * ACB
GP * 14
Min * 17
Pts * 9.9
eFG% * 0.56
FTA * 6.6
FT% * 0.55
Off * 4.6
Def * 7.5
TOT * 12.1
Asts * 0.8
Stls * 0.6
Blks * 6.7
TOs * 2.7
PFs * 3.5

The fact that his block rate is more than double the NBA-leader makes this hard to believe. But he was also that far ahead of the competition in Europe, so who knows.
If Bismack’s small sample size numbers are at all close to reality, and he is truly 18, drafting him is a must. Biyombo and Rubio would give us two young perfectly fit “role players”. Not “role players” in the pejorative sense, but in the sense that they perform their positional tasks at an extraordinarily high level. Take Love into account, find a good high-usage scorer, and you have the ingredients for a championship contender.

by vjl110 on Jun 6, 2011 11:04 AM CDT reply actions  

Completely agreed

He’s the #2 pick if he’s 18.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

If he hasn't moved up a bunch by then

I’m not sold that the draft order is set.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Every time I think I'm crazy for wanting to spend a high pick on Biyombo

I watch the Nike Hoop Summit video, and I fall for him all over again. I heart Bismack.

by Madison Dan on Jun 6, 2011 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

But that was against high schoolers right?

I’m not a Byombo hater, but I really think expectations are getting out of hand for this guy.

I mean who’s to say he isn’t Stromile Swift?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

He did the same thing against grown-ups

in the ACB. Any one of these guys could be a bust.

by Madison Dan on Jun 6, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh I agree

Again, I don’t necessarily hate the idea of Byiombo as much as I hate the idea of him being drafted pick 2

When a player is going to be a problem on 1/2 of the court, there are always going to be issues and I think a lot of people are over-looking his problems because of OUR problems.

If he is Tyson Chandler that is awesome, but like I said before, Chandler had to work hard to get his game to a level where he wasn’t a problem offensively, and until that happened he didn’t see the court as much.

I’ve heard a common complaint about drafting Williams is that we have a glut of player playing the same position and potentially not be a very good 2011-12 team while we try to make minutes for all our 3/4’s but I mean consider, are you willing to wait maybe 2-3 years for Byiombo to polish his game off so he can play 30 minutes a night as well? Assuming his skills come around even?

Hell, maybe he doesn’t even need his skills to come around, maybe his raw nature is just simply too damn good. But that would largely be a first for an NBA player. Not saying it can’t happen, but I would be surprised.

The hype machine is too high on Biyombo for my liking, he just reminds me of that movie that you’ve heard hyped up like crazy and when you finally sit down to watch it just doesn’t equal expectations. So I will remain skeptical, but if we draft him-hopeful

If we can get the 4-8 thing and potentially turn Williams into Byiombo and Burks I would be more interested in that then drafting Biyombo 2

Also, I desperately need to learn how to spell his name if we are going to draft him…

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Williams measured out as a PF. Williams blocks, steals, and rebounding numbers all suggest he is going to be just as much of a problem at 1/2 the court (defense) as BIyombo.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

But again, defense is effort and intellegence based

Not athletic based

If Williams is as smart of a player as it appears he should be able to play solid defense. Maybe as a 4.

I would bet he becomes a better defensive player than BB becomes an offensive player. Which means I am basically betting that Williams goes to the right team situation and works hard on getting better defensively. Which seems a lot more double than BB learning offensive flow, how to pass and set screens and developing a consistent jump shot.

If you think I’m wrong about the effort/smarts vs athleticism debate, ask Russel Westbrook how Jason Kidd did defensively against him.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Your argument doesn’t make sense. Let me walk through your logic.

1. Defense is based on effort and intelligence
2. Williams plays with effort and intelligence
3. Williams therefore should be a good defender.

The only problem with this logic chain is that Williams played with effort and intelligence last season in the NCAA against more limited players than he’ll face in the NBA and still was not able to be a good defender, did not collect steals, did not block shots, did not rebound. How, if Williams possesses traits 1 and 2 in the logic list above did he underperform as a defender in college. It should not have been possible using your system of evaluation.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because I have never said argument 3

I think he “could” be a good defender. And really what I have said all along is that he could be acceptable enough to the point where it isn’t a problem do to his incredible offensive efficiency.

That’s it. That is all I have ever said about Williams

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

From your post that I replied to…

If Williams is as smart of a player as it appears he should be able to play solid defense. Maybe as a 4.

How is that different than step 3 in my logic chain. Not trying to bust your chops, okay, maybe a little, but I wasn’t trying to turn your arugment into something more than what you were saying. This is what i believed you were arguing, apparently not?

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't garuntee anything though

I don’t think there is any reason he can’t be a good defender and that is why I chose the word “should” but should also isn’t the same thing as saying “he is going to be a good defender”

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

So I think you meant to say “could” instead of “should”?

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Probably

but should still isn’t the same thing as saying “he will be a good defensive player”

He is athletic enough that if he puts in the work and effort he should be able to be good enough to justify his offensive efficiency

that is my opinion on DW defense

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I understand your arugment

But you just as an FYI, since I am at that type of person

Should: (1) Simple tense of Shall; (2) must; ought
Shall: (1) plan to, intend to, or expect to; (2) will have to, is determined to, or definitely will

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I'll just wipe the egg off my face

From beggining the post with “But you just as an FYI”

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hey,

I heard Tonto, Tarzan, and Frankenstein were looking for a fourth.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Jun 6, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I really think you under-rate how hard it is to be a good rebounder and defender.

You’ve given the “effort” line a lot of times, but Williams exerted a lot of effort at Arizona and he was only OK as a rebounder and defender. You just can’t assume that he’ll figure it out in the NBA.

Biyombo already has rebounding and shot-blocking skills. Statistically speaking, those skills translate pretty well to the NBA. The stat I like best about Williams is his scoring efficiency. That stat does not translate as well to the NBA.

As far as the later riser argument, Williams is nearly as bad as Biyombo in that regard. No one would have pegged Williams as a number 2 pick going into the year. He wasn’t a heralded high school prospect. Over the last year, both Williams and Biyombo have shown a lot, one against NCAA competition and the other against the ACB.

by Madison Dan on Jun 6, 2011 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Effort and teamwork are defense

I stand by that point. Lebron is a freak and plays his mind out which is why he might be the best defensive player in the NBA, but there are excellent defensive players that are barely athletes like Shane Battier or Paul Pierce. Is Derrick Williams not more athletic than these? I come off like I am saying he will be a good defender, but I am more just anti the notion that he will never be able to play the 3, it’s been done by far less atheltic players.

To me it seems like the consensus on DW vs BB is that:

DW will not be able to play 3 effectively to justify the fit while BB’s overall basketball polish will not be a big enough problem to pass on his insane defensive upside. And I just don’t agree with the assessment, both players could be pretty good. I would prefer to bet my money on the guy who can score, since we can always find Afflalo’s and Dahntay Jones’ to help the defense, but guys that can score 20 efficiently are tough to find.

I realize I’m assuming DW can score 20 efficiently

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would contend that finding Afflalos and Joneses isn't that easy.

If it were so simple to find players like the two you’ve used as examples, then why is it so many teams struggle to find solid perimeter defenders? Are they easier to come by than efficient scorers? Maybe, but they’re not exactly growing on trees.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

The thing about Afflo (and Jones)

is that the reason that he was able to shine is because he was brought on to a stacked team that didn’t need him to do anything but play good D, and because Billups and Carmelo absorbed most of the defensive attention. He wasn’t the same player playing for Detroit, which is why they were willing to let him go, and he wouldn’t be the same player playing for us.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo has received less hype than Williams IMO

just not here on CH. Google search Williams vrs Biyombo. Who has more content? I would argue that because Biyombo has less hype than he should he is undervalued at this point by most.

by wet_nurse on Jun 6, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Stro Swift

Was a good player with a sub-100 IQ. Give the guy a brain and he could have been great.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Jun 7, 2011 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

We might as well mention

Gerald Green. He wasn’t much more than an athlete or shooter, but he was great with pastries.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Jun 7, 2011 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's not crazy...

….it’s Biyombo. It’s impossible not to watch that video and hear that coach talk about him and then to read his stat sheet and not get a bit giddy. The guy couldn’t be more type casted for Love’s front court mate. You probably couldn’t put together a better fit from scrap.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm afraid to ask this

But any idea if the Wolves like him? Know who he is? Even think that sort of player is needed?

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Jun 6, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

It scares me that he's never linked to the Wolves

and Kanter often is. I read one profile of Kanter this morning that compared him with Darko (meant as a compliment), in that you could run an offense through him. The Wolves might think they have the right idea but the wrong player and take another swing at it with Kanter. I really hope they don’t.

by Madison Dan on Jun 6, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't get the Kanter stuff

We really know very little about the guy, he’s really more of a skill-based player, and this front office usually prefers long/athletic.

I also didn’t get the Kanter vote at #3 on the CH draft board, but it might be an example of fans anticipating their franchise’s move and voting him higher than they would otherwise. (In my opinion, putting Wes J at #5 on CH’s board last year was a similar phenomenon.)

by WolvesFan03 on Jun 6, 2011 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't get it either. Kanter looks like a decent prospect

but he’s a totally different kind of player than Biyombo, and I agree that we barely know anything about him. His Nike Hoop Summit footage shows some nice moves, but it’s all below-the-rim stuff.

by Madison Dan on Jun 6, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah....

…something about the guy just screams “do not take at the top”. I bet he’d look a lot like Nikola Vucevic with 2 years in college.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think

the fact that the Wolves traded away Big Al and passed on DMC is enough evidence to suggest that they will pass on Kanter. They just don’t seem to be going for those type of players under the current regime.

by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jun 6, 2011 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

What if those moves had less to do with basketball and more to do with PR?

DMC, rightly or wrongly, had a bad rep coming up to the draft. Big Al had a rather recent DWI arrest when he was traded. I’m not saying it is likely, but I’m saying it is a possibility those moves were made because they didn’t like the negative public perception of those two players. In which case, Kanter doesn’t have any such concerns so he may be exactly the guy they are looking for. Pardon me while I go throw up now.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Really?

I’m surprised Givony would miss such a glaringly important piece of background information going into that game. That’s reassuring, since Kanter might be who we take, but also not, because it’s another injury for the guy.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 7, 2011 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oops

I assumed this was attached to the chain of comments about DraftExpress’s Jonathan Givony tweeting a bunch of negative stuff about Kanter as he watched some random high school game of his. I guess those negative comments were legit. Concernedness back on!

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 7, 2011 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Okay, this isn't truly sourced, but when I posted a link

to his highlights from the Nike game, and mentioned how he was playing under the basket like so:

He’s finishing weak with little lay-ins in game action, but he has a very nice sense of position in back-to-the-basket spots. Turns to either hand, uses glass for rebound putbacks in a way you don’t see. One nice little catch and release baseline jumper. We never see the Olajuwon-esque little hitch step things he’s trying out in his workout video.

fanslaststand responded that:

His back was hurt that game. Didn’t think he could play until the last minute. He wasn’t jumping but still played great.
I’d love to remove this info from my brain for something useful.

by feral on Jun 7, 2011 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I remember that one.

I remember it because that very first highlight, the first time I saw it, called to mind a kid who used to sit in front of me at Metrodome Twins games. Every time there was a foul ball, this little kid would shout

“Go go Gadget Arms!”

and hold out his little glove.

Bismack Biyombo’s ludicrous reach measurements are no joke.

by feral on Jun 7, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've come down from Kanter mountain

I used to prefer Kanter to Byiombo, but then I was shown the error in thinking Kanter is the preferred prospect since there is equal amount of mystery surrounding both players.

If we keep to I would rather just take Williams, but if we were to get pick 4 I would rather have Byiombo than Kanter

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Question to all of you Biyombo fanatics

How do you think Biyombo’s value changes if he can defend SF’s? I know he’d increase greatly value in my eyes.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 6, 2011 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oh good lord

Guarding 3 positions while doing very little but rebounding and blocking shots? Yes please. (BTW: I doubt he could do it. That kind of position flexibility/athleticism would simply be insane.)

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree about the insanity of it.

Biyombo is a very interesting prospect. Hard to wrap my head around him at the moment. And, quite honestly, the whole draft. I’m confused on who the top 10 best prospects are, and I’m also willing to add Marshon Brooks as one of them. If that ain’t confusion, I don’t know what is.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 6, 2011 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions  

If he's like Noah

he can do it on switches, later in the shot clock. That’d be my (horribly uninformed) guess.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Noah comparisons need to end for now

Noah is a brilliant offensive Center. He is an excellent passer and sets amazing screens, has some of the best court awareness in the league and is an acceptable shooter.

If Byiombo can do even slightly all that Noah does offensively we can start those comparisons, but let’s stick to Tyson Chandler for now.

Am I wrong? I admit I’ve only seen the Portsmith tapes, but I’ve heard very little that suggests he is even a competent offensive player.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've never made the comparison before

so this is a quick end, for me at least. Just pointing out an example of a mobile big who is able to defend 3’s on ball screen switches.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

With Rubio

all you need to know about Yombo’s offense is “Dean Garrett.” Potentially elite defensive center who would mask the biggest weaknesses of our best player? Like Rubio, Yombo only needs to score 8-10 points a night in order to be a net positive. He’s a high efficiency scorer and good FTA guy. Taking him at 2 would be Kahn’s Westbrook moment.

by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jun 6, 2011 12:05 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Heck

Let’s really put Dave Berri to the test. Let’s find a way to add Iggy in exchange for Beasley + Webster and roll out Rubio/Iggy/Wes/Love/Yombo. Not a go-to guy among them!

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

What would be really interesting about this...

…is how it would work with the star model of the NBA. From Scorecasting:

A team with no starting all-star on the roster has virtually no chance—precisely, it’s 0.9 percent—of winning the NBA championship. More than 85 percent of NBA finals involve a superstar player and more than 90 percent of NBA titles belong to a team with a superstar.



A team fortunate enough to have two first-team all-star players stands a 25 percent chance of winning a championship and a 37 percent chance of making the finals. On the rare occasions when a team was somehow able to attract three first-team all-stars, it won a championship 39 percent of the time and made the finals 77 percent of the time.

The numbers are even more striking when we consider the top five MVP vote recipients. A team with one of those players stands a 15 percent chance of winning it all and a 31 percent chance of making the finals. Having two of those players yields a 48 percent chance of winning the championship and a 70 percent chance of making the finals.

…Having the MVP (James) in addition to two other all-stars makes the Heat 98 percent likely to make the playoffs, 70 percent likely to make the finals, and 36 percent likely to win it all.



What about the notion that a lineup of five solid players is better than a starting five of one superstar and four serviceable supporting role players? One way to test this idea is to look at the disparity among a team’s starters in terms of talent. Controlling for the same level of ability, do basketball teams with more evenly distributed talent fare better than teams with more dispersed talent? Measuring talent is difficult, but one reasonable metric is salary. Controlling for the average salary and winning percentage of teams, do teams with bigger differences in salaries among their starting players fare worse than teams whose salaries are spread more evenly among the players?

We find the opposite, in fact. Teams with more variable talent across their players are more likely to make the finals and more likely to win a championship than teams with more uniformly distributed talent.

It would be interesting to see this run with PER or WS/40 or either of them compared to the salary of the player in question (value measure), but I think the results would largely be the same: in a capped league, superstars are way, way, way underpaid in terms of what they bring to the table. Get as many as you can and don’t worry about anything else.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Amen!

Great stuff.

The only exception I can think of is Larry Brown’s Pistons, where the players were all very good, but their collective defensive prowess got them a ring.

We need a superstar. Period. Without one, we are going no where. But at the same time, one superstar (and a great coach) can make all the difference (e.g. the Bulls).

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Those Pistons also managed to win at exactly the right time.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 6, 2011 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

For sure

I mean Noah is a different breed of center all together, it was just a tough comparison for an admitted Byiombo skeptic to swallow :-p,

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

i thought your pointed point was good.

refering to defensive switches…that is not an overall comparison.

phuckin' machine took my quarter.

by speed-racer on Jun 6, 2011 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

That Video is great

With the coaches lauding his leadership, coachability, and his game highlights, lots of drool inducing footage. His Agent definitely gets mad props for creating the Biybombo hype, voiding his contract in the ACB, and crafting a contract clause that allowed him to ditch his ACB team to play in the Nike Hoops Summit. Kudos to whoever it is.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo doesn't have an ACB contract?

Wowzah Ebomb.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 6, 2011 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Unilaterally voided due to missed payments

No buyout clause for the NBA, he’s essentially a draft eligible free agent.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Makes it incredibly easy to draft Biyombo for teams.

Just like an American kid essentially.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 6, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I will stand by my stance, pick 2 is a mistake for Byiombo.

I’ve come around to him if we trade down to 5-8.

2 is too high for a guy with no offensive game.

Let’s assume he is going to be Tyson Chandler (which we can all agree is probably the high end for Byiombo’s skill set, maybe he is a better rebounder) That would be excellent, but it took Tyson about 4-5 years to really come into his own as a player, largely because he was a horrendous offensive player.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

What if

The sole compensation for moving down from #2 to #5 is a role player and $1 Million dollars? Is it still unacceptable to take him at #2?

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or do you think if Wes was the player we wanted

we should have traded down to get value out of the pick, since DMC was clearly the best player on the board?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Your question necessarily assumes that another team was willing to trade assets to move up. I don’t know if that was the case, neither do you. Cousins was a polarizing player due to maturity issues that none of us fans can properly assess. I udnerstand why we passed, even if the statistics say we made a hug blunder. Time will tell whether we were right or wrong, but so far, IMO, jury’s still out. Cousins didn’t wow me this season in terms of production or maturity.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I was never a big DMC fan

but Detroit sure was. That’s just one option that was talked about frequently as a team that loved DMC

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Detroit also had very little in desirable assets

Daye? Jerebko? Cash?

What would have been enough to move from #4 tto #7 in your opinion? I didn’t see a great trade to bmade by the Wolves with Detroit last draft unelss it was Al Jefferson for Prince and #7 that was talk about here ad nauseum, kind of like this year’s #4 + #8 trade.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jerbako!

Then we wouldn’t have to worry about BB!!!

Jerbako is probably in the top 10 for coolest players in the NBA

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Getting a small

4/3 would mean that we wouldn’t have to worry about a potential starting 5?

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

We unquestionably received offers from teams looking to pick Cousins.

But we didn’t receive an offer from the only team we would have been able to trade with and still pick Johnson: Sacramento. All reports that I read suggested that Sacramento was comfortable picking Johnson at #5 if we picked Cousins at #4, so trading down to Golden State at #6 or Detroit at #7 wasn’t an option if Johnson was “Our Guy.”

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

You can't triple stamp a double stamp

By answering a question with a question

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think if they really really really want Biyombo they should take him at 2

But if they are kind of wavering between Biyombo/Williams, maybe Knight (who I actually think is my 2nd choice behind Biyombo for the pick) see what you can get for the pick in a trade down. Cleveland appears to have a hard on for Williams, maybe you can get the 2012 first rounder that you desire.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

A friend pointed out the difference between Tyson Chandler the-offensive-liability

and Tyson Chandler the-contributor: Free throw percentage. It used to be that you could completely avoid guarding Chandler because all you had to do was rotate late and foul him. Once he managed to increase his free-throw percentage to a respectable rate, he ceased to be a guy you can just foul to prevent from scoring.

I think we can draft Biyombo and stick him with a coach to work on his free-throw shooting form for a couple months. If he’s shooting 200 free throws at the end of every practice for a month, you can rest assured that he won’t be an offensive liability for very long. After you get past that one major weakness, you can take your time with developing the footwork and array of fakes necessary to become a scoring threat in the post. It’s not like he won’t be scoring his share of points on put-backs from offensive rebounds and fast breaks/alley-oops from Rubio.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Totally

I’m not saying Byiombo can’t eventually be a contributor offensively, but I mean Chandler worked for years on his offensive game. How long are we willing to wait on BB?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

What I was trying to say is that there's no reason to think we should have to wait years.

He’s never going to be an offensive force like Shaq, or even Eddy Curry for that matter. If you believe he’s currently a player that should almost never be passed the ball on offense (a reasonable belief), then what I’m saying is all he needs to do is learn how to shoot free throws to no longer be a total liability on the offensive end. If he goes his entire career without ever receiving the ball in a post-up opportunity early in the shot clock, he can still be a valuable member of the offense if he can make better than 70% of his free throws. If his defense translates to the NBA game from day one, then any scoring from posting him up is gravy – even if we won’t see any of that gravy for two or more years.

As of right now, in his first year with the team he could be the best center in Timberwolves history if his blocks and rebounds translate to the NBA game (as projected) and he does 2 things: 1) Shoot >70% on his free throws; and 2) learns to avoid fouling at a rate >6 PF/36 min. While the second of those two requirements may take more than a year to develop, the first should be able to be developed within a matter of months. After he develops those two things, then the development of everything else on the offensive end can begin in earnest. Until that point, I really don’t care if he ever receives the ball farther than 3 feet from the basket on offense. This team scores a lot of points but it has trouble scoring at key times during the game, and I don’t think the difference between Pekovic’s scoring ability and Ben Wallace’s scoring ability is going to make a big difference in those critical moments. However, I do feel like the difference between Ben Wallace’s defense and Pekovic’s defense will make a difference down the stretch when we really need a stop. (I use Ben Wallace as an example of a good defender who is a complete offensive liability because that seems to be the projection for Biyombo at this point)

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Even if you don't make your FTs,

just getting fouled makes you a contributor. Putting the other team’s starters on the bench early with foul trouble and getting your own team into the bonus early is huge.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Givony’s new mock for Yahoo says that Utah, Cleveland and Toronto will all consider Biyombo at #3, #4, and #5. We can’t count on him being available at 6-8. Obviously we’ll learn more after Vitoria on June 9.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Should have been a reply to SNP

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

…it will really be interesting.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

Check out the top 100 prospects for Givony and Ford.

It’s amazing how many guys are all over and valued differently on those lists. It’s not entirely unusual, but outside of about 5 or 6 guys in the lottery, there is no real consensus right now. I find this so baffling.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 6, 2011 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Very Unusual

Although I trust Givony’s big board more than Fords, I trust Ford’s mock drafts more than Givony’s. It really is crazy, beatuy is in the eye of the beholder for this draft. Lots of compelling draft related arguments to make this year with lots of international prospects making the arguments more challenging.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yep Ebomb.

EvilCowtownInc: Screwin Suckaz over since 1985...... On Twitter

No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by pookeyguru on Jun 6, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

He also had this to say
If Minnesota keeps the pick and indeed selects Williams, sources say the Timberwolves will look to move Michael Beasley(notes) as they try to improve the “culture of the team.”

Thinking about this team taking Williams makes my head hurt.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Me too.

But that little nugget seems like something that could easily be a lazy assumption.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ah I love that

That’s what I want

Williams in Beasley out.

I believe that is the correct choice for this franchise.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

Downgrading in talent

should not be this team’s plan for improvement.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Do not get rid of average or above average players.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's cool man. No disrespect

I have a good feeling about Williams, and that’s all I got.

I love his game, I think he is going to be an good to elite scorer in this league. I think he’ll be able to play defense, and I love his attitude.

The chip on his shoulder is one of the all time great motivators for professional athletes.

It’s impossible to measure intangibles but that’s how I roll with my favorite players, and DW has all the makings of an intangibles all-star.

If you really must make fun of me by commenting “how did Johnny Flynn work out?” I already have the answer: I was never a fan of the pick and never felt like Flynn would be anything special, I was Curry all the way, who is an intangibles all-star.

I can’t prove Williams is the right pick outside of his excellent efficiency and his low usage rate, I think he’s got the star potential in him that few players we have been fortunate to draft have.

Just my thoughts

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't mind Williams at all.

I just think there are craters of talent deficiency on this roster, and Mike Beasley has a lot of talent. Not the guy to be sending away, right now.

by Andy G on Jun 6, 2011 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not against Beasley by any means

I prefer Williams however. Simply because I think he is more willing to take the ball to the hole (whether it be posting up or driving) and that alone should clear up a lot of offense for the rest of our team.

I wonder what Beasley’s trade value is, I mean who is to say the Raptors would give us their pick for Beasley/Randolph and we could get Biyombo as well? Does Beasley have more upside than Jan Vessley? Absolutely, ya know?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um, we still have a PF logjam

Beasley isn’t the issue here, it’s all the other talented PFs that create the logjam.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

It doesn't make the team better

It creates rotational problems, it makes it difficult to allocate minutes, and demands we effectively value and trade assets. I hate this option.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

If Biymobo is an all-star it makes our team better

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm also not against Byiombo

just at pick 2 I think you take the value and figure stuff out later

Who says you can’t trade Beasly/Flynn to Toronto for pick 6 and get Biyombo there. Toronto needs star power, and while Beasley isn’t necessarily a star, he could pose as one given the free range of shots he would get there, and certainly he has as good a chance to be a star as anyone in this draft does

and then move Peck and pick 20 to get an OJ Mayo type player instead of trying to get Alec Burks?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

So we took the BPA

And drafted the guy CH is man crushing on

And added a young veteran that fills a big time hole=successful draft.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dear God.

What happens when you take Toronto’s existing defense and add Beasley and Flynn?

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 7, 2011 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions  

Toronto’s existing defense

Misnomer much?

Rrrrrruuuubiyomboooo!

by BrettAhlgren on Jun 7, 2011 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Moving our starting SF

to make room for a PF, even if he is an all-star, really doesn’t make the team better.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

D'okay

so, if we could get Chris Bosh for Beasley you’d turn it down? Because a all-star PF wouldn’t make our team better?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes,

because I don’t trust either Love or Bosh to play anything but the PF at a high level.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

What if they take Williams...

and then move Beasley, Flynn and Pek for Rip and #8, at which point they land Biyombo.
That would be a win, would it not?
I’m starting to become more convinced that Bismack won’t last that long.
But, imagine running out Rubio/Rip/Williams/Love/Biyombo.
That line-up makes sense to me.
3 shooters. A distributor. A rim protector.
Rip as the vet, eventually replaced by…. ?
That’s the only hole I see.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Jun 6, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think Rip is past his prime

I’d almost prefer just rolling with Webster or Wes Johnson at the 2, as at least they have more of an ability to space the floor. Also, you have Williams slotted as a 3 in your hypothetical lineup. I’m just not seeing it. He’s a 4.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed that Rip is past his prime

In this equation, we take him on as the price of acquiring the #8, and we still get someone who performed at a higher level last year than anyone other SG on our roster.

I have concerns about Williams as well, but I’m also struggling with not using the highest pick we’ve ever had, as opposed to trading down.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Jun 6, 2011 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

We don't do that

because it’s terrible trade value and it means that we’re forcing a pure PF (and not a SF/PF like Beasley) into the SF spot.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

so why is Beasely a 3/4 and Williams only a 4?

Williams scores from every area of the court, and actually is comfortable driving to the hole from the perimeter which Beasley isn’t.

Also Kevin Love offensively is hardly a 4, he plays on the perimeter as much as he does the post.

We need an inside offensive presence

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Williams isn't a 3

because he can’t create off the dribble at all, and he’s going to really struggle defending the perimeter (struggle even more than Beasley).

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

An 18 year old Biyombo would be a great reason to trade down with Cleveland for the 4. If we could get them to take Darko with the #2 for Vareajo and the 4 we could absolutely turn around our post defense with Andy and Bismack.

by Blond Ricky on Jun 6, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

That would be good.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 6, 2011 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would throw in #20

And let them choose between Darko and Pek to make that trade.

Regardless I will be very nervous about trading away Williams, lest he become a stud.

The world is made for people who aren't cursed with self-awareness

by Victor Mature on Jun 6, 2011 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wouldn't throw in 20

but I’d MAKE them take Darko. And my starting point in negotiations would have them adding #32, but I’d cave on that if needed.

by Madison Dan on Jun 6, 2011 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're tough

Varejao is a good player, that’s a lot to pay to move up 2 spots

The world is made for people who aren't cursed with self-awareness

by Victor Mature on Jun 6, 2011 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

The worst they can do is say no!

I think Gilbert is in the mood to pay big to make a splash. So we test them to see how much they’d give.

by Madison Dan on Jun 6, 2011 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

This whole thing

has kind of been my dream scenario for a month or so. Plus if we make them take Darko we still net one big and will have some combo of Pek, Randolph, Tolliver, Beas, and the 20 (and hell Flynn I guess if anyone wants him) for a competent 2 guard. We don’t even take that much of a cap hit because Varejao’s contract is so sane.

by JopeX37 on Jun 6, 2011 11:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

F**king love Biyombo

I’ve been flip flopping between him or Williams. Right now I still lean Williams, but I’m probably drinking the SF kool aid. Yombo is amazing. Best defensive big man prospect since Howard. If he can have even half the offensive skill, he’ll be an All-Star.

BIYOMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 6, 2011 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

i'll take biyombo over williams.

williams isn’t going to play quite so big in the nba. and that will curtail his game somewhat, imo.
and biyombo could be scarier than ben walla. biyombo needs a mean ass fro.

phuckin' machine took my quarter.

by speed-racer on Jun 6, 2011 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not too sold on him

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross

by doubleteapot on Jun 6, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

with Ronzone around...

don’t we have the exact guy in the organization who will understand this?

Talk the Talk staying at 2….drop down in a “too good to pass up” trade offer from Cleveland…and pick Biyombo.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Jun 6, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

Darko and #2 for Vareajo and #4.

by Blond Ricky on Jun 6, 2011 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

i don't think anyone is goin to fall for darko anymore.

the only way he gets traded is to make numbers work. he can’t be a key player in a trade, imo.

phuckin' machine took my quarter.

by speed-racer on Jun 6, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

In this trade scenario

It would be a cost that Cleveland has to pay for the right to move up to #2. I think that’s the point.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

well it looks to me like cleveland has to give up varajao to move up 2 spots.

and get a liability in return. i think that would be a rotten deal for them.

phuckin' machine took my quarter.

by speed-racer on Jun 6, 2011 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm All In on Biyombo

And am nervous about the reports that value Kanter higher. Especially since all the pre-draft reports in the past on who we value have been 100% correct.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kanter suuuuuuuucks

Do not want. Yes, I am a hater.

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 6, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

BIYOMBOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Jun 6, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

From Draft Express Twitter today
Some new game footage of Enes Kanter is circulating from his prep school days. I’m watching one game now. It’s fairly underwhelming stuff.
I don’t know if he’s just tired here or what but he looks really lethargic playing vs very weak competition. Getting destroyed on defense.
Pretty much all GMs have to go off of except his Hoop Summit performance? RT @TAL_ESQ: how much value can that video have on his talent now?

Link

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was going to link to this
Watching some of the other Kanter games now. Pretty much the same story. Not putting any effort in. Playing zero defense. Not boxing out.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hit 'Post,' meant 'Preview'

Because there are yet more quotes.

I wasn’t as high on Kanter as other media people prior to watching this, but now I’m legitimately concerned. Transition will be significant.
Hasn’t bent his knees once. If he’s even in the frame having bothered getting back on defense. RT @yowhatupT: Do you see him sliding at all?

I gotta say, coming from a pro like Givony, this is pretty grim stuff, enough to make me move Biyombo back above Kanter on my draft wish list. I’d ask for a ‘Projecting Enes Kanter’ post, but the scary thing is that you couldn’t even do it. It’s unbelievable how unknown everything is about this draft.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

No kidding

Anyone who hasn’t played in a year, gives me the creeps.

At least Jennings was “smart enough” to go play in Europe.

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just curious

But how did Kanter get above Biyombo on your board to begin with? Can’t be game film or statiscal production, is it just Chad Ford hype for Kanter at this point?

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have personaly moved Biyombo ahead of Kanter

on my list of players that I want

but there is something to be said about a skilled offensive player. It’s just easier to see how he can make an impact a team.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kanter is the 3rd rated center on my list behind Jonas Valanciunas and Biyombo.

While he clearly has some athleticism I’ve not seen him use it effectively in a game. He looks like Al v2.0 to me.

by zebano on Jun 7, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

He just seemed to be on a higher tier

I’m not a draft expert. Most of my opinions are based on what others write and stats. In absense of stats for Kanter, enough people telling me Kanter was the better prospect was all I had to go on.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

ditto

I much prefer Bismack. Kanter just doesn’t look like he can defend well enough to me while BB has a proven record as a defender.

by zebano on Jun 6, 2011 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kanter wants to go to DC,

Kanter plays like a 4, pretty similar to Love’s game. Draft him at #2 and trade him for Wizards’ #6 pick and draft BIYOMBO!

by abcnerdd on Jun 6, 2011 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 6, 2011 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

Can we make stupidity more painful?

by nodnarb on Jun 7, 2011 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

Biyombo

Not sold on Bismack at #2 but he is growing on me – if we trade for 4 and 8 and get him @ 4 that would be great. Who, than might be available at other than Burks – not quite sold on him yet.

by Jogger on Jun 6, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Guess there is no edit button

Correction – who, than might be available at 8 other than Burks :)

by Jogger on Jun 6, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Morris twins..

….probably Vesely, Jimmer!, Jordan Hamilton, Tobias Harris.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks

Yeah looks like Burks it would be – Jimmer intrigues me but 8 seems a little high for him right now. If we had a set team maybe we could settle for someone who will probably be primarily a spot up shooter off the bench, but I think we need more help than that. I watched some videos of Burk and he looks like a slasher that finishes well and would complement Rubio’s skills nicely. If he can play defense some that would be gravy.

by Jogger on Jun 6, 2011 5:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've been on the Jimmer bandwagon for a while

But I’m also of the opinion there is no reason to have both he and Luke on the same roster.

by JopeX37 on Jun 6, 2011 11:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not on the Jimmer bandwagon or anything,

but I wonder if someone can clarify why he isn’t getting consideration as a better-shooting J.J. Barea type? I’ve heard a lot of rumblings about his ability to handle the basketball, isn’t that one of the few things that J.J. Barea really brings to the table? I’m sure Fredette will have monumental problems on the defensive side, but Barea isn’t exactly lighting the world on fire on that end of the court either. Is Barea really THAT much better at dribbling the basketball than Fredette? Or is it that Fredette has never played to make his teammates better (possibly because he’s not been playing with guys that are close to his level)? I’m ignorant on these issues and would like to become more informed.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 7, 2011 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Barea is probably the best back up pg in the league are running the PnR

His short(er) stature and quickness allow him to get to the whole and around defenders easier than Jimmer who has close to half a foot on him. Barea also is very good at setting teammates up for good shots. Jimmer has yet to show that in the NBA. Jimmer is a much better shooter though. I haven’t done exhaustive research on it either.

I'm Trill, I'm running w/ the WOLVES

by running with Twolves (and scissors) on Jun 7, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 7, 2011 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why don't we try and get both Williams and Biyombo?

Here’s a few questions I have about the debate

1.) Williams has a high scoring efficiency in college which I am under the impression doesn’t translate well to the pros
a.) why is that?
b.) I also am under the impression he has a relatively low usage rate considering his high scoring, which to me would suggest there is a good chance his efficiency would translate better due to the rather standard number of plays called for him and shots he took. Am I right in my assumption?

2.) If we draft Biyombo how do you (or any BB lover) propose we fix our final minute scoring issues? We still need a guy we can confidently go to in the last minute to make the right play. Williams many times in college was that player, and it appears he has the mindset to be that player. We lost probably 16 games in the final minutes of the game largely due to poor shot/play selection and low efficiency. Neither Love nor Rubio appears to be the ideal candidate even though the combination of the two would make the efficiency of the plays shoot up.

I suggest we draft Williams at 2 and try and trade into the 4-8 range and get BB (preferably by using Beasley plus other things to clear the roster glut) Both players have skills that we desperately need so maybe we can take advantage of the poor opinion of the draft.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kudos

At times, this site has some of the best sports journalism produced today. You can’t find quality articles like vj’s anywhere else.

by johncolson on Jun 6, 2011 11:05 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

To all regular contributors really.

I rarely post, but check it nearly every day. This was a particularly great post, but close to every single one is well thought out, articulate, based in fact, and bringing a (relatively) new/unique look at the topic.

Which begs the question, is it because it’s Minnesota? Land o’ the fit and educated? There is no way this type of discussion goes on by supporters of every team, especially within the comments.

Even Maynholp brings good stuff, and it seems his grip on the English language is questionable at best.

by menlow on Jun 7, 2011 8:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I love this article. rec'd

If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
Samurai Champloo > Macross

by doubleteapot on Jun 6, 2011 11:06 AM CDT reply actions  

I think this article makes me wonder something I have never really thought of

Is it Khan that can’t draft a PG or is it Rambis just screwing their careers up? If we drafted Jennings or Curry or maybe kept Lawson would Flynn be tearing it up in Golden State or another PG doing well in Denver?

I completely want Rambis gone and the whole Ramon Sessions thing just puts it into perspective. We let him screw up Flynn I don’t want him screwing up Rubio we have too much invested in him and I don’t trust him.

by Doug West Domination!!! on Jun 6, 2011 11:06 AM CDT reply actions  

Doug West Domination is the best name on Canis Hoopus btw

just want everyone to know

Unless someone pulls out a clever alliteration with Stokyo Vrankavic I think this is the winner

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I remain partial to

The Rambis of Kahn

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

JB JB he's our man...

…if he can’t do it, Rambis Kahn’t

by timmuggs on Jun 6, 2011 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

My fav wolf of all time

Dude could fly down the lane and I was so sad for him when he gave his years to a franchise to that finally got good only to be traded to the effing Grizzlies their first year. Guy got his nba career screwed big time. Could’ve been a very good supporting player for a championship team.

by Doug West Domination!!! on Jun 7, 2011 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Euro Coaches?

I can’t think of any examples of NBA teams poaching a Euro coach, but I’ve been thinking that it might be worthwhile to check into Aíto García. García coached Rubio in Joventut Badalona from 03-08, and was the head coach of the 2008 Spanish Olympic team, in which Rubio entered the public consciousness. It seems that if anyone knows how to run an offense that allows Ricky to maximize his freewheeling flair, it’s García.

I get that he’s unlikely to be terribly interested, for the same reasons that Coach K isn’t particularly interested in the NBA. But it’d be worth asking his price, at least. If this team is truly all-in on Rubio, they need to get a Rubio-centric coach.

...I've been drinking...

by losDelFuego on Jun 6, 2011 11:12 AM CDT reply actions  

HMMM

That idea interests me – not likely to happen though.

by Jogger on Jun 6, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Have a read a lot of negative opinions on Rubio's defense lately in the press

but he sure has a knack for stealing the ball. As everyone knows, steals (or blocks) do not equal good defense. Depends on whether you are taking big gambles.

Here are some general things about Rubio that make me optimistic:

  • Even average defense at PG with a few opportunistic steals will represent a major improvement.
  • Correctly made passes on pick and rolls, backscreen cuts, and fast breaks will be a major improvement. Luke can really shoot but seems to almost never make these passes. Jonny only makes ‘flashy’ passes and they often miss their mark.
  • Good BBIQ decisions made about who and when to pass to will help. I cannot remember how many times a big would run on the break and either (1) not receive the ball at all or (2) receive the ball about two dribbles from the basket, which equals a turnover. You don’t make Pekovic with a head of steam dribble. And you don’t watch big guys run hard and then pull up for a three for yourself (IMO).
  • If his game and fame translate, it will help pull free agents. How many guys would like to play with a famous pass-first PG who will throw you passes on time and on the money? If you have hops you’ll end up on SportsCenter.
  • Before this, if you asked me to identify the ‘core’ of this team, I would have said:
    PG: ?
    SG: ?
    SF: ?
    PF: Love (if he stays)
    C: ?

At least now I would list:
PG: Rubio
SG: ?
SF: ?
PF: Love (if he stays – slightly more likely now)
C: ?

Let’s know down a few more of those question marks this summer. PS: If anyone feels strongly that Beasley should be listed there at SF I can buy that. I’m just not sure he is a SF and I’m not sure the Wolves will want to pay him big $$ to play out of position.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Jun 6, 2011 11:14 AM CDT reply actions  

Typo - Let's *knock* down a few more of those questions marks this summer.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Jun 6, 2011 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lock-down D at the point is almost impossible in the NBA

Given the current hand-checking rules, even the guys who the experts think are among the best defensive PGs in the NBA are really passing-lane and double-team disruptors more than true lock-down man-to-man guys (Rondo, Westbrook, Chris Paul, etc.) and we can be pretty sure that Rubio will do at least some of that (Thorpe predicted that Rubio will be top-5 in the NBA in steals as a rookie, and while I don’t think Thorpe is a perfect authority, by any means, I don’t think that’s out of the question, either).

Also (and I think this veers away from what Rubio will actually be capable of initially in the NBA, so it’s more for argument’s sake) the guys who ARE legit, lock-down, man-to-man defenders, at least at times, tend to be big (i.e. long enough to guard a lot of SGs, while still staying in front of most opposing PGs, like Westbrook again, Deron, younger Billups, Kidd (who’s now strictly a SG defensively, IMO), etc. which Rubio also is (although he pretty clearly won’t have the kind of strength that the guys above guys use to check SGs).

Given that the coaches that have actually scouted him (namely Coach K) think he’s a fantastic defender, I’m going with that take, rather than the random media and anonymous “experts” who talk about his defense as a potential weakness.

by LA_33 on Jun 6, 2011 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

This

Given the current hand-checking rules, even the guys who the experts think are among the best defensive PGs in the NBA are really passing-lane and double-team disruptors more than true lock-down man-to-man guys

Nobody can stay in front of good point guards in the NBA. It’s a combination of rules and the nature of the sport; the guy with the ball knows where he’s going, he’s just as quick as you, and you have to react to his move. By definition, you are going to be behind most of the time. The most you can hope for is to get the guy to take extra dribbles to beat you, and steer him the direction you want him to go.

The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.

by Eric in Madison on Jun 6, 2011 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Respect

vjl110 – this is fantastic.

by lurifax on Jun 6, 2011 11:35 AM CDT reply actions  

Is there a record for most number of 'recs' for a fan post?

Because I think vjl110 might hit it with this one. Until sbjake’s next fanpost, of course.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 6, 2011 11:54 AM CDT reply actions  

Is there a way to see what accounts are responsible for recommending a post?

I think that could help prevent one person from posting under numerous accounts – and recommending each post enough times to ensure it remains on the home page.

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Dad, is that you?

My mother was a lovely woman, rest her soul, but she never saw the irony in calling me a "son of a bitch."
- Jack Nicholson

by ynotsema2 on Jun 6, 2011 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Lets be Honest...

If the Wolves Add Biyombo, Rubio, a quality new Coach and a quality Veteran SG this off season…this site will explode, FreeDarko will go back in business and David Kahn will get a statue right next to Sid.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Jun 6, 2011 12:03 PM CDT reply actions  

Kahn is in a position to do a lot of things I would like to have happen

and if he does them, I’ll give him credit. For now, I’m preparing to be really pissed off on draft night. Kanter at 2, Brooks at 20 (or Vucevic if Brooks is gone), and no trades. That’s my expectation.

by Madison Dan on Jun 6, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yes

How have we felt as we went to bed on the nights of the last 2 drafts?
We are very good at projecting best possible scenario drafts here, much like Kahn projects best case scenarios for the players he acquires.

I can’t stop myself from coming up with positive/semi-realistic scenarios, but I have to keep telling myself they probably won’t happen, and I’ll probably be making a scene, booing at the draft party again this year.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Jun 6, 2011 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Couple of thoughts for you SnP

I’m on board with having a defensive stud beside Love. It’s the perfect complement.

At the same time watching these playoffs have been very enlightening to me about how overrated the center position is. In particular Tyson Chandler. Before these playoffs I’d have said he’s a guy I’d love to get on out team… he’s a physically huge, got everything you could hope for. But after watching him I’ve concluded he’s totally f-ing useless as a basketball player. He makes a thunderous dunk, and then lets Wade waltz to the hoop, without even noticing. People can come up with all the reasons Dallas will lose, and he’s the single person I’d point to first. Give me Haslem over him any day of the week. Why? Because he knows how to play basketball.

Another interesting thing, is how the playoffs separates the men from the boys. Guys who look good in the regular season, don’t have the skills or wisdom to play in huge games.

Which leads me back to our draft philosophy. Every error we’ve made can goes back to guys who just don’t know how to play (which is why Rubio will be good). So I think we should take the best available basketball player, position be damned.

Honestly I don’t know enough about Biyombo to say whether he’s good or not. But really I’d be interested in your thoughts along this line.

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Wolves under Kahn seem to be terrible...

…at selecting good players, regardless of position. I’m not sure how much more this position can be fleshed out. They don’t pick good players. Period. I think there could be a legitimate disagreement over who is the 2nd best player in this draft. I think they could take a guy like Biyombo and have a legit argument that he’s the 2nd best player.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed

Unless Rubio turns out to be a stud.

And part of the my point was the whole long and athletic philosophy vs good player.

We need some BBIQ bad.

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes

They need it in a bad way. From coaching to front office, too.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have a sinking feeling right now....

Even as I feel like we have a huge opportunity to go into next season in a really solid position, I can’t help but believe our starting lineup next year is going to look something like this:

Rubio
Johnson
Beasley
Love
Kanter

OK… I prefer that lineup to what we ran with last year. But I really think we need to find a way to get a deal done with CLE to move down to #4 (Honestly, I’d be happy to dump Darko and Flynn and pick up the #32 pick and a future 2nd rounder or something. If we could do better than that, it’d be gravy). Then we pick Biyombo. I don’t think there could be a better fit with our two core guys (Rubio, Love).

That leaves us with this:

Rubio
?
Beasley
Love
Biyombo

We’ll have Johnson, Randolph, Tolliver, Webster, Ridnour, Pekovic, Flynn and the #20 and #32 picks as assets that could help us fill the 2 slot or provide bench depth. I still like Beasley better as a 6th man and I feel like he could win us a couple of games off the bench with his gunning, but that can be addressed later. Just get an average starting shooting guard that isn’t in his thirties, and that’s a competitive team with lots of room to grow.

Not going to happen though.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is OJ Mayo "average"?

Because I’m sure we could pick him up with some combo of Flynn/Pek/#20/etc.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Jun 6, 2011 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know Mayo doesn't get a ton of love here

and I don’t think he’s great, but I’d be perfectly fine with trading #20 and bench guys (outside of Randolph) for him.

He’s still young and I think he’s close enough to average. He tries on defense and didn’t complain when his role was reduced. I think he’d be a decent guy to have, for sure.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed he'd help out a ton

I would actually rather trade scraps for him than trade pick 2 for Ellis

He seems like he is a poor man’s Harden, whom is probably by far the most ideal player to play with Rubio in a backcourt.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we could get Mayo, that would be a situation

I would be cool drafting Byiombo with

I mean we are still a bad offensive team too. It’s not like we can just ignore that area

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

He hit a guy on the team plane

After blowing up the USC basketball program. I’m not so sure about the decent guy angle.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

All I meant by "decent guy"

was “decent guy to have on the team.” He might be the biggest jerk in the world. However, that fight on the plane didn’t seem to disrupt the team chemistry at all, and he never seemed to be sulking. I don’t think he’s a guy that’s going to poison a locker room, that’s all.

Didn’t Rose have some shady stuff go down to get him into Memphis? People forget that really easily while anointing him the greatest human being to ever touch a basketball.

I hated OJ Mayo coming out of high school, but it seems like he’s tried to fit in and play hard wherever he’s been since then. I wouldn’t call him the essence of a high character player or anything, but I think he’s smart enough and motivated enough to play hard wherever he goes. So from that perspective, his character doesn’t worry me.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I could care less about it, either

I just don’t think he’s that good. He had an awesome first 2-3 months.

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't know if he's "that good"

but he’s better than what we have. And he’s good enough to play decent minutes on just about any team I think. Even good ones.

To me, that’s worth the #20 pick and Flynn or other filler. I don’t know if that deal is realistic, but it would be worth it in my opinion.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

He fits a need much as Byiombo does

And he is proven to have some level of success in the NBA

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, the plane fight at least shows impressive self-confidence

…and self-confidence is generally a good thing for an NBA shooter (even if Mayo isn’t all that good, he’s a useful shooter and secondary ball-handler). In the words of the anonymous NBA exec who produced one of my favorite quotes of this NBA season:

“Tony Allen is one of the very few guys in the league I would greatly urge every NBA player not to [expletive] with.”

by LA_33 on Jun 6, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

I've got to imagine he does

Literally we might be able to swing pick 20 and Peck, if not for even less

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

What is your basis for that opinion?

I don’t see how Mayo isn’t massively overvalued by the Griss with the end-of-season success that they had and the way they played (even if his bourre nemesis was more valuable to the team). Talk about getting lucky that trade didn’t go through.

Is it strictly salary-related? Otherwise, I don’t know how/why we’d be able to get him for the 20th pick in a crappy draft and Pek.

by PDGirl on Jun 6, 2011 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

And by Griss I mean Grizz

by PDGirl on Jun 6, 2011 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was almost traded Mayo for McRoberts at the deadline

Pek would give them some insurance for Gasol.
The #20 would give them their pick back.
Throw in Flynn so they can justify it as adding depth to the PG spot.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Jun 7, 2011 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

I get that trade was almost made at the deadline.

Just seems to me that circumstances/the Grizzlies’ perspective have/has changed since the playoff run, and I’d imagine they value him more now.

by PDGirl on Jun 7, 2011 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it would probably have to be salary-related

and because of that, I doubt they’d want Pek in return.

Considering he was starting for them in the last few games of the OKC Series, Memphis probably values him. Maybe even despite his lack of NUMB#RS.

by Andy G on Jun 7, 2011 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

he still can't defend SGs to save his life

if he’s not scoring, he’s not valuable

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 7, 2011 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah...

Chandler has been great this postseason. He’s a good basketball player, and a defensive anchor for the Mavs.

If you hadn’t noticed, Wade “waltzes to the rim” against everybody. It’s why he’s one of the best players in the league.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oops

“You” being Rodman99

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

I knew my Chandler take would ruffle a few feathers

But for quite some time I’ve been watching these games thinking man “Where the hell was Chandler? Does he ever protect the rim?”

It took a while until I finally concluded that he is not a very good basketball player. And there’s probably a reason he bounces around from team to team.

Also the number of horsesh*t fouls that Chandler’s commits is horrible. Let me put my hands on your midsection so I get called while you make an easy lay up.
As for the Wade drives to the rim, it’s when he does a slow move in isolation against Kidd. Does Chandler not know he’s coming to the rim? No he doesn’t because he’s dumb as rocks (sorry, I just call it like I see it).

If you took Haslem’s mind and put it in Chandler’s body, now then you’d have something.

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

I guess I just don't understand

how you can see Chandler as a bad basketball player when he’s the starting center and defensive anchor of a team that’s in the finals. Name ten better centers in the league.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I said "not a very good basketball player"

And yes, I agree I’m being harsh. But to me he could be the difference maker in this series, but he makes a lot of boneheaded players.

My original point was that these playoffs are showing me how overrated the classic center position is in the modern game. If you just have some bigs who can play (like Haslem), you’re fine (naturally it helps to have Lebron, Wade and Bosh).

It appears the scorers and playmakers are far more valuable, as well as the collective defensive intensity.

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

This particular Finals match up explains a lot of your apparent conclusions, I think.

In this series, of course “the scores and playmakers” appear to be more valuable, because “the scorers and playmakers” are the two clear-cut best players (LeBron and Wade), the next best Heat (Bosh) and 4 of of the 5 best Mavs (Dirk, Terry, Kidd, and (normally non-scorer) Marion also scoring well in this series).

Chandler (the other best Mav), on the other hand, is guarding guys whose primary job offensively is to draw him away from the play so that he can’t help on LeBron and Wade as easily (and I include Bosh in that, when Chandler is guarding Bosh). But he’s still the defensive anchor of a team that features two very mediocre defenders in their closing five (Dirk and Terry) but is still hanging with a Miami team that pretty much blew the doors off two of the best defensive teams in the NBA in their two previous series.

This is also probably the specific matchup that makes Haslem look the best, because he’s a solid Dirk defender (but not on Chandler’s level as an overall defender), and he does a good job in that “just occupy Chandler enough to keep him out of the play for an extra split-second” role.

by LA_33 on Jun 6, 2011 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fair analysis

But looking at the way he fouls guys (i.e. letting them score easily; aka Darko fouls), makes me wonder. Against this line-up he should be a terror. He should be owning the paint. But he’s not.

And I think the scorers and playmakers have won every series save for Orlando’s one series win.

This all goes back to where I was going… I’d much rather take a chance on Williams at #2 then any center in this draft. Scorers and playmakers are what win in this league.

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Defense

Is also what wins in the NBA.

Miami has a ferocious D. Orlando, Boston, Dallas, etc. All of the contenders can play defense. And it usually starts with a big man (often a center) who can protect the paint. Miami is just an unusual situation in that LeBron and Wade lead the defensive attack, and they’re both perimeter players. Even so, they start a center whose sole purpose is to play defense and protect the rim. Big men are less fun to watch, and maybe Chandler makes some dumb plays, but I don’t think the fact that Miami is really good proves that you don’t need a center who can play defense.

If I thought that Derrick Williams could even possibly be close to the LeBron/Wade level as a playmaker, obviously I wouldn’t want to think about passing him up for Biyombo. I still prefer we trade down to #4 and get something (anything) for our trouble, and pick Biyombo.

by Dumbhead62 on Jun 6, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Totally agree about defense

That’s why I so, so disappointed that so many CHers that I value picked Dallas to win the series.

Defense is what wins. And I totally agree that we need a defensive minded center. But the #1 thing we need is a superstar. We need our Rose. Our Durant. And with the #2 pick you go for that and not a project of a center.

Thabeet, Darko, Oden, Candyman, etc. etc. etc. You do not waste a pick that high on a center. Unless it’s Shaq or Duncan or Dwight.

Am I saying that Williams is a superstar. No. But he might be.

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Realistically

That isn’t very likely. He simply doesn’t do anything other than score at even a decent level. To become a star in that mold you better be Melo/Amare good at scoring.

Interviewer: Can you understand why teams value potential ahead of experience and accomplishment in the draft? Wes Johnson: "Yeah. I understand. It’s the youngness of everything – older guys like young women, so it’s the same way."

by Xand1 on Jun 7, 2011 9:09 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

There are some holes in your arguments
  • Orlando doesn’t have a series win
  • Rip Chandler, fine, but if you’re using Haslem as the guy you’d prefer, I have to question what you’ve been watching since Haslem’s singular good game this playoffs. Haslem missed his next 13 shots following his big game against Chicago, and has generally played like crap. His mid-range jumper is set to auto-fire, but it isn’t that good, and it’s all he does on offense.
  • People see Chandler dunk and miscast him as a rim-protector. He’s simply not a big-time shot-blocker. He’s fine there, but his real strength is as a man defender. The Heat have no one for him to guard one-on-one where this strength would be useful.

Chandler’s offense is was league-leadingly efficient because it’s all clean-up stuff at the rim. I could see the argument that he’s ineffective in this series because Miami is very good at limiting the offense rebound/defensive lapse-based opportunity that he feasts on. But that’s about as far as I can go. Chandler is a very good NBA center.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I leave it at this

Just key on him and watch him for a while.

Not very impressive.

Forgot Orlando lost first round (which furthers my argument that the whole stud center thing is vastly overrated).

by Rodman99 on Jun 6, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have a feeling...

Kahn thinks his wing prospects will get much better with Rubio.
I don’t completely disagree, but I wouldn’t stand pat like he probably will.
It’s why we should probably calm down about the Iggy projections.

From everything I’ve seen, they don’t even have Alec Burks scheduled to come in for a workout.
Boooooooo.

Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV

by HumdingerTV on Jun 6, 2011 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

just don't draft Kanter

that’s all I ask. No Kanter. No Kanter at 2. No Kanter at 2. No Kanter at 2.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 6, 2011 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Beware the JanJan bird and
shun the frumious Kandersnatch

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Jun 6, 2011 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Kantersnatch!

The best thing about this word is that it can ba a noun and a verb.
Noun: Beware of the Kantersnatch! Alt: Oh, look! The Kantersnatch cometh!
Verb: Oh no, Kahn is about to get kantersnatched! Alt: Did it kantersnatch him? Great! Now we need a new GM!

by lurifax on Jun 7, 2011 2:33 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don’t know what to expect. Barring excellence from Rubio, both drafts of the Kahn Era are looking disappointing, but for entirely different reasons. The 2009 draft was marred by poor preparation (pin that on Taylor) and Kahn going rogue on Flynn. The 2010 draft, I thought, was almost operated like an NFL team approaches the draft: they tried to collect as many “safe” players/prospects as possible, and made little effort to move up (Philly was unreasonable, but NJ seemed like a possibility), or back to leverage value. They just tried to hit singles in 2010 to grab players of need at the wings.

So I’m not sure if there’s a pattern to be found yet. “Facepalming” seems like a strong likelihood, though. It just wouldn’t be draft night as a Wolves fan without a good facepalm.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 6, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

this is where Ronzone should be a difference maker...

Euro Ball is his specialty, and all the big men are Euro/Foreign Players…and we can say with certainty that a Physical/Defensive minded big man is something they have said they need…i mean, tee it up for Biyombo.

This relationship between kahn and ronzone holds the key to this franchise…final window, walk through it.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Jun 6, 2011 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

I Hope So

But Ronzone was on board for last year’s draft, too, one which seems to be just an uninspired effort from the front office.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 6, 2011 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm worried that Ronzone is the "Kanter guy" in the Wolves draft room

…because he saw him play 5 games with Fenerbahce and at the 2009 U-18 European Championships, and thinks he can beat the rest of the NBA to the “under the radar” guy who will become a dominant big man (and get people to stop clowning on him about being the “Darko guy” for the Pistons in 2003?)

I’m sure he does also know Biyombo as well as any NBA talent guy, but I get the sinking feeling that Kanter is the guy he likes, because he can do so many things offensively. Unfortunately, I’m not sure that anyone can know if Kanter will be able to defend at the NBA level, and especially with Love at PF, that’s an absolutely essential ability for this team.

by LA_33 on Jun 6, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I keep going back to Kahn saying they need an athletic big man

and hoping Biyombo. It’s too obvious. Draft for need, Kahn and you might draft the BPA by accident.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 6, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I wonder if the rumor of #2 for Bogut is actually an option

If so, that is a pretty interesting choice. The younger, more athletic Biyombo vs. the proven 2-way player Bogut. Big plusses and minuses both ways (age, salary, health, experience, etc.)

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Jun 6, 2011 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

if bogut's healthy

count me in…great guy also.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Jun 6, 2011 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

A bird in hand...

Give me Bogut, easily.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

yep

pissed off on draft night. I wish i could not watch.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 6, 2011 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Excellent Post

Rubio does seem to have much better production that Sergio Rodriguez did in the ACB, making that comp less tha ideal, thankfully. He seems to be the guy that gets mentioned most frequently when discussing Rubio’s bust potential. Rubio appears to have significantly out rebounded and out assisted Rodriguez while also turning it over less frequently. Phew.

Derrick Williams is going to Bust...as a Small Forward.

by Ebomb on Jun 6, 2011 12:10 PM CDT reply actions  

I'd Rec It

I still think the Greatest Post on Hoopus was Stop N Pop breaking down the value of Kevin Love vs OJ Mayo on the Importance of Possessions.

"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"

by Jose Cordoba on Jun 6, 2011 12:18 PM CDT reply actions  

Good call

I’d be hard-pressed to name a better series of posts than these. The Hoopus Score evaluations leading up to the draft are great every year, but these are even better.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Absolutely

not enough people around then to rec that post enough. But that was a damn good post.

I think we need to get SnP to find some motivation (or time? or material?) for those kinds of posts again.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 6, 2011 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agreed...

The value of possessions post changed how I look at basketball

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 7, 2011 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

it changed how I look at sex

possessions, possessions, possessions.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 7, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Another outstanding projection post.

After all the hype and waiting, it really does seem we need to wait and see if Rubio can score efficiently enough to be a foundational type player in the Kidd/Rondo mold, or if he’ll merely be the Wolves’ version of Al Nolen.

...so long as they get a real guard

by jianfu on Jun 6, 2011 12:31 PM CDT reply actions  

It may end up being something in between

Nate McMillan was a great comp….Hadn’t thought of him.

by Rascal Flatts on Jun 6, 2011 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Great write-up.

I can see him turning into J.Kidd. Then again I can see him turning into Sergio…
And as a Kings fan, I would also be happy with Biyombo as the #2 pick.

"We're not talking about me and Darko in the same sentence." - Chris Webber vs KAHN!

by caseycheesecake on Jun 6, 2011 12:44 PM CDT reply actions  

I have been waiting for someone to write this post...

And this is very well done. I tried to write one myself but my post maker is all jacked up. I can’t use any features, I can’t even type in the field and my jump is gone. can someone help me? If someone can assist me my email is bennetthouck@yahoo.com Thanks

Had I written this post it would have been pale in comparison but it would have been fun to try.

Authentic frontier Gibberish

by FunkDoobious on Jun 6, 2011 12:45 PM CDT reply actions  

What browser are you using?

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

not sure what you mean

Like internet explorer? Excuse me for not knowing, its all so new to me.

Authentic frontier Gibberish

by FunkDoobious on Jun 6, 2011 5:00 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

IE is one browser,

and tends to be the most problematic for a few reasons. Mozilla Firefox and Google Chrome are two (I think superior) alternatives.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Jun 6, 2011 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

^^

I’d start by sending you to www.firefox.com to see if that doesn’t solve all your problems.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's strange.

I’ve been running Chrome for about three years, and I haven’t had a single issue with it. Really, my affection for Chrome is a bit unseemly.

"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope

by Cynical Jason on Jun 6, 2011 9:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Chrome is they way to go.

IE9 is very respectable i must say, if you havent tried it you should. Both are better than Mozilla.

by Waucckhewww on Jun 6, 2011 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Hollinger's conversion numbers for Euroleague only

You should not include ACB/Eurocup and expect the same accuracy of results.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 6, 2011 1:03 PM CDT reply actions  

True..

but I doubt it has a significant impact on the accuracy. I would be more worried about the drop in accuracy if I dropped ACB/Eurocup due to decreasing the sample size, than I am with lumping ACB/Eurocup numbers with Euroleague for using Hollinger’s conversion numbers.

by vjl110 on Jun 6, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I have been taking a look at advanced stats

while there is some good stuff online, I was thinking of buying a book on the subject. Any suggestions as to which book would be a good spot to start?

Authentic frontier Gibberish

by FunkDoobious on Jun 6, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Basketball on Paper by Dean Oliver is a classic

I haven’t read either of Dave Berri’s books, but he can be really insightful on occasion, so I bet his books are a good read.

Honestly, just reading blogs can be better than any book. Berri’s Wages of Wins and Galetti’s Silly Little Stats are both good and accessible. If you have a decent background in stats you can also venture into the APBRmetric forums…. and there are many many more sources.

by vjl110 on Jun 6, 2011 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Check out the sidebar..

…on the left of the front page. Lots of links under stats/reference. As for books, definitely start with Basketball on Paper. Vjl110 hits on the good sites to start out with. I’d add 82Games, Basketball Value, and HoopData. Another good book is Scorecasting. Mathletics is ok. It’s not specific to sports, but The House Advantage is another good read for data-driven decision making. Skeptical Sports Analysis is another good site. Basketball-Reference is something you can’t do without. Doug’s Stats, too.

If you want to narrow all of this down to a good starting point, get Basketball on Paper, read Basketball Reference’s blog, and learn to read your way through Basketball Reference’s stats (they allow you to change formats and export into excel spread sheets, which is very helpful).

by Stop-n-Pop on Jun 6, 2011 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Thx guys

Is there something I can do to reset my post maker deal. I seem to have screwed it up after making my first post.

Authentic frontier Gibberish

by FunkDoobious on Jun 6, 2011 2:46 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Rec'd for effort

And for solid advice. I thought I was the only one turned on to Skeptical Sports Analysis. That’s one of my favorites.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

It wasn’t formulated for use of ACB/Eurocup stats, he based it solely on Euroleague numbers – numbers which are against more rigorous competition than the ACB by definition. If you look at a large number of players and compared their ACB/Euroleague numbers, you would see that ACB numbers would make the players look better across the board.

The sample size issue is a real issue to be sure, but you basically took a statistical analysis and threw the sample population out the window. It was only a somewhat accurate predictor to begin with (use it on a number of EURO players and see how the results normally have multiple numbers which greatly differ), so yeah… the drop in accuracy due to including stats gained from easier competition should be the least of the worries discussed.

Not going to say your conclusion from it (that you can pencil in 5reb/8sts per36 for Rubio) is baseless or that I disagree with it… but I think the weakness of your otherwise nice writeup is using the conversions as you did.

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 6, 2011 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

“the drop in accuracy due to NOT including”

NBA Draft Fanatic

by Casperkid23 on Jun 6, 2011 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah. You are right, and I am glad you pointed it out.

I am trying to get all of the data organized so I can find these same values for myself. Once I do that, I should be able to get all of the conversion values I want, and actually determine whether mixing ACB and Euroleague is safe. For the time being, I’m just making some very loose assumptions about how I can clump data, but I am wiling to bet that when all is said and done, the conversion numbers won’t be all that different.
Ideally, I should also be able to get some confidence intervals for applying these conversions, allowing for really nice projection ranges.

by vjl110 on Jun 6, 2011 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sorry to post a non-related thought, but

Doesn’t the absense of Rambis on the European scouting trip imply that either the Wolves aren’t drafting Biyombo or Rambis will be fired?

Seems unlikely that the Wolves would draft a young, raw, foreign prospect with a high draft pick without the coach wanting to see him & be in on the discussion.

"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra

by Wile E Coyote on Jun 6, 2011 1:05 PM CDT reply actions  

This is the reason why I read Canis Hoopus before any other sports pages.

Can’t wait to get out of the hot Melon fields to catch up. Really, You should get paid for this. I’m excited by this and I wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t help sell a ticket or two.

by mr.sorbet on Jun 6, 2011 1:17 PM CDT reply actions  

Yup

Thanks for all the hard work, VJL! Incredible post.

by Shaq Attaq on Jun 6, 2011 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

lol

i bet kahn is going to screw up the wolves again and trade rubio for someone like kwame brown

GO Kings

by Kings fan22 on Jun 6, 2011 2:36 PM CDT reply actions  

Thanks for the great post VJL

I’m sitting in the Charlotte airport waiting for a flight home to Minny so I thought I’d post. I’m using an iPad so sorry for any typos as these keyboards suck. I read CH every day but rarely post but I have really been interested in the development of ideas I’ve seen on this site as to hoe to make this team better. I really admire the effort most of put into your posts.

If we assume that Rubio and Love are untouchable as trades this year, and everyone seems to agree that we need a veteran 2 and a better 5, then is it reasonable to trade our #2 and a play or two for Philly’s Iggy and #16. Then trade the #16 and 20 and a play to trade up for Biyimbo. Add Dalembert in free agency to mentor BB and offer a veteran presence. He was also Iggy’s teammate at Philly so that might help Iggy coming here.

My question is what players would it take to get this done and does it make sense? I like Iggy better than Monta because of his defense and I think he’d a better teammate.

by mystic penguin on Jun 6, 2011 3:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Best post and discussion in awhile I think. vj has a way of doing that.

This thread also scared the piss out of me when it comes to Kanter. Officially on the Biyombo bandwagon. Get him.

by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jun 6, 2011 4:15 PM CDT reply actions  

He's got the motor - has he got the offensive skills?

Another project. Can we handle another project? This is an impatient bunch on C.H., you know.
Can’t blame ‘em. They’ve had nothing since K.G. left.

As long as the world is turning and spinning, we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes.

by BaylorWest on Jun 6, 2011 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Doesn't matter

They are building around Rubio, and if there is one young point guard out there how could guarantee Biyombo 10 points a night if he wanted to it’s Rubio. More to the point is you don’t draft Biyombo for offense, you draft him because he is a fantastic prospect for a ‘last line of defense aka an island known as center who plays opposite of Love.’

This organization is committed through and through to what Rubio brings to the table. If the Wolves go big, which I think they will as it represents the best value play out there, they are either drafting Val or Biyombo. Kanter’s offense is enticing, but they are committed to Love and a Kanter Love frontcourt poses too many issues for a running team.

My guess right now is that they’ll explore trades and end up with a young big somehow. If you look at this team through a Rubio lens, Biyombo makes way too much sense. If there was ever a time where I thought Kahn was engaged in subterfuge leading up to the draft, this is it. Vesely, Val, and Burks would all also fit Kahn’s prior moves. Kanter doesn’t, IMO.

by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jun 6, 2011 11:26 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Oh how I hope this is subterfuge.

But in the past (like last year’s draft), he was just as dumb as he appeared to be on the surface. Biyombo is long and athletic, so…

by Madison Dan on Jun 7, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sad that this entire draft thing makes me nervous

Biyombo, Biyombo.

I’m so not in love with Kahn that if he picks Biyombo, I’ll start seriously doubting my own judgement and be happy at the same time.

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 7, 2011 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

How's he stack up to Jason Williams?

If he’s just that good, I’d go with it, minus the controversies.

As long as the world is turning and spinning, we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes.

by BaylorWest on Jun 6, 2011 4:32 PM CDT reply actions  

Rubio, I mean.

As long as the world is turning and spinning, we're gonna be dizzy and we're gonna make mistakes.

by BaylorWest on Jun 6, 2011 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Luckily,

I don’t expect to see Rubio randomly pulling up for 3s from 8 feet behind the 3 point line with 18 seconds left on the clock (The White Chocolate special).

by Esohny on Jun 6, 2011 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

One question

I’ve asked before, but have since forgotten.

What is this “WS/40” business? Win Shares per 40 minutes? Games?

A player shouldn’t be worth 9 wins per 40 minutes, obviously, but per 40 games seems like an extremely arbitrary cut-off too. Explain you metric, sir!

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 4:56 PM CDT reply actions  

Win Scores / 40

He’s using Berri’s simpler “Win Scores” metric :
WS = PTS + REB + STL + AST/2 + BLK/2 – (FGA + TO + FTA/2 + PF/2)
Basically, it’s a measure of points net of possessions, and Berri has shown that WS/min correlates very highly (r^2 = 0.99) with WP48 when adjusted by positional averages.

by hopps on Jun 6, 2011 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ah

It’s per 40 minutes then? You still didn’t say, though it’s becoming clear that that is the answer.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 6, 2011 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

or is it 40 team possessions?

or maybe 40 individual possessions?

You may never know….

by vjl110 on Jun 6, 2011 5:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're killing me, vjl110.

Just killing me.

And I would know if I could just remember what I was told the last time I asked. >.<

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 7, 2011 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

vjl110...you should check out this job posting that the Wolves just tweeted

http://nbateamjobs.teamworkonline.com/teamwork/r.cfm?i=34163

Director of Analytics and Research. Attach this post and you should have the gig in no time.

Everything in the computer need my face on it. Mega Gigabytes, son!

by TimAllen on Jun 6, 2011 5:39 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

BYOA

bring your own abacas.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 6, 2011 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

abacus

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 6, 2011 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

David Berrie gives these position adjusted win scores for European players

Valanciunas 12.6 Bismack 8.8 Rubio 7.7 and Kanter 1.2 (but I think its based on about 4 games for Kanter).

by mr.sorbet on Jun 6, 2011 6:21 PM CDT reply actions  

I get the enthusasim for Rubio

yet it is really hard to project his future.

One thing for sure: he will bring the sizzle.

Dingus Kahn, it's over

by Flagrant on Jun 6, 2011 7:52 PM CDT reply actions  

I though he sucks

As you stated in this comment a few days ago. Or were you not completely certain about that? Or was it the fact that he’s signing now that sucks? Either way, you seemed pretty certain that something about Rubio sucks so don’t try so hard to backpedal.

by Facial on Jun 6, 2011 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

It looks like he's saying

he’s not convinced Rubio sucks.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 7, 2011 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Can I just say

that while I usually don’t give two licks about recs (though I do try to give them to recognize good work), I’m pretty damn impressed with 45. I’ll have to read it and contribute my own. Either way, vlj, well done on probably the most rec’d piece CH will ever see.

, said Mplax.

by Mplax on Jun 6, 2011 7:57 PM CDT reply actions  

I wouldn't speak so fast...

There’s always a chance that JaF breaks the news that Kahn will be fired.

One can hope

Kerry Eggers: "There are those who feel Kahn will be a new-wave type of GM along the lines of baseball’s Theo Epstein, and Daryl Morey of the Houston Rockets. Kahn will likely be more of a hybrid, employing a bit of an old-school tact as well."

by Blakeley on Jun 7, 2011 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Don't tempt SBJake...

It might take him time to set up that many fake accounts, but he’ll get there.

by zebano on Jun 7, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

YOUR POINT

STILL STANDS!!!

This account is to be used solely for recommending sbjake's Fan Posts.

by PoorDick on Jun 6, 2011 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I’m liking this meme.

If it wasn't for Jordan Farmar and that guy Kevin Love, I would've killed somebody!

by John Doe on Jun 7, 2011 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

It's a hobby . . .

 . . . like anything else . . .

This account is to be used solely for recommending sbjake's Fan Posts.

by PoorDick on Jun 7, 2011 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

SILENCE!

(and…late and with little effect…)

I haven't written an insightful post in years.

by littleboxes on Jun 7, 2011 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

We'll work on it

in rehearsal.

This account is to be used solely for recommending sbjake's Fan Posts.

by PoorDick on Jun 7, 2011 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I forget how fun he is to watch play basektball

He does some things offensively that no one on this team does.

Love and he would be unstoppable offensively, I realize there are some defensive concerns but Williams will score in the NBA. And apparently can rebound too!

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Love and he would be unstoppable offensively"

Except that they’ll never be on the floor together because they play the same position.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

What a narrow minded view point

So which one dominates the post?

They both have the ability to play on the perimeter and in the post.

Williams scores in the paint too, which we need. It’s not against the rules to score less than 15 feet away from the basket

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Which one creates off the dribble?

A: Neither.

Who, outside of Rubio, can dribble?

A: No one

Who can we give the ball to in iso at the end of the game and expect a bucket?

A: Beas.., wait we traded him away. So no one.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Williams will score at the end of games

I mean if what Beasley did last year counts as scoring in the end of games than Williams, or Alec Burks, or heck even Markieef Morris should have little problem countering Beasley’s efficiency in the final minutes of the games.

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Did you watch the video?

Beasley can score from the perimeter at the end of a game. Williams can take three dribbles and kick it out of bounds.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Lol what Beasley games did you watch?

I can specifically remember 3 games where Beasley fumbled the ball at the end of games

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

In college,

Beasley showed just as much, if not more ability to score in the lane. What makes you think that Williams’ scoring ability will translate better than Beasley’s did?

Either way, we have exactly one guy on the team right now who can create offense for himself – Beasley. If we move Beasley to make room for Williams, we will have zero guys who can create offense for themselves.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

What does Beasley do with that ability though?

Shooter 22 footers?

I would much rather have a guy who is a step lower in creation but 5 steps up in production

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Once agian,

what makes you think that Williams won’t also start to settle for jumpers against stronger NBA defenses?

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 9:03 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The fact that

Beasley, a guy with similar size and athleticism who was much better at attacking the basket in college, is now doing so.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 9:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

But it doesn't matter

Williams will shoot from wherever Rubio gets him the ball, because he’s a PF and he can’t create for himself.

by AQuintus on Jun 6, 2011 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

What about Danny Granger

seems like he isn’t nearly the athlete Williams is and he has been a very effective Small Forward with average handles

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 9:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

And it has nothing to do with the fact that

Beasley’s work ethic and basketball IQ aren’t nearly at the level most NBA players are?

by VoodooMagic on Jun 6, 2011 9:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

D. Williams Jumper

Looks like crap but it goes in. I don’t know.
Agree with those that say he’s a power forward.

by fanslaststand on Jun 6, 2011 11:35 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

BTW,

thank you! Williams is a 4, if hes available at #2, draft him and trade him for BIYOMBO and assets/veterans.

by abcnerdd on Jun 6, 2011 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

This guy sounds awesome!

I would totally trade the #2 pick for him, and throw in Beasley.

We're howling forever

by Fitter on Jun 6, 2011 9:08 PM CDT reply actions  

Nicholas Goss?

Is Nicholas Goss at Bleacher Report credible? – he has us taking Kanter at 2
Please nooooooooooooooooo!!!

by Jogger on Jun 7, 2011 11:49 AM CDT reply actions  

The better question is "Is Bleacher Report credible?"

The answer is no. It’s a website that uses fan-generated content, not unlike the fanpost section here or the user articles section at Yahoo!.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Jun 7, 2011 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

That depends

do you think sbjake is credible?

"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"

by Steven Ellingson on Jun 7, 2011 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Does the Pope crap in the woods?

…wait, that’s not right. Ah, it’s “Is a bear Catholic?”

Damnit, that’s not right either! I’m not so good at these things.

"We must always seek the truth in our opponents' error and the error in our own truth." - RN

by nja700 on Jun 7, 2011 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good point

sbjake is definitely credible – I’m just going to hope Goss isn’t

by Jogger on Jun 7, 2011 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Good write up

And great discussions. With the draft as it is right now, I don’t know that there is any real way we can trade the two and get BB, even with the four. If we are worried about his offense, just have RR throww BB some alley-oops. When the other team collapses to prevent that, KLove will be open for the three.

GO WOLVES!!

Maybe my masochistic view will be gone after this season.

When did I become a masochist?

by frankenhoops on Jun 9, 2011 3:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Nice analysis, but I'm not sure I understand your figures.

In the age-18 numbers for Rubio, he’s listed as scoring 14.3 Pts (per 36, pace-adjusted), but his shooting stats are:

5.8 FGA at 0.45 eFG%
6.1 FTA at 0.80 FT%

So… how does he get 14.3 points? I’m seeing 5.22 points from FGs (5.8 * 0.45 * 2) and 4.88 points from FTs, which is 10.1 in total.

Using the pace-adjusted stats on the DraftExpress page (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Ricky-Rubio-1155/stats/) and converting them to 36 minutes, I’m getting:

14.0 points on 9.9 FGA (0.46 eFG%) and 6.1 FTA (0.79 FT%)

R88

by Rahsaan88 on Jun 14, 2011 6:41 PM CDT reply actions  

I'm pretty sure...

the adjustment hasn’t been applied. For the same season, using the numbers from the DraftExpress page, I’m getting 9.1 assists per 36 minutes, pace-adjusted – exactly the same as VJ.

With Hollinger’s adjustment (or any other, for that matter), players are expected to get more assists in the NBA than in Europe, where scorekeepers are much stingier.

by Rahsaan88 on Jun 15, 2011 1:13 PM CDT reply actions  

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