A Pattern of Behavior: Wesley Johnson
"Johnson fits the mold of your prototypical NBA small forward from a physical standpoint, and then some. His excellent size, length and athleticism give him a terrific base from which to build off of, and he's really rounded out his skill-set now as well." - NCAA Weekly Performers, January 15th, 2010
Wesley Johnson was born in the city of Corsicana, Texas, a city of some 25,000 people about fifty miles outside of Dallas. When Johnson arrived at Corsicana High School, he already had a reputation as a skilled shooter, having won many three-point shooting contests in his area. His brother convinced Johnson early on not to try out for football and to focus solely on basketball. Once Johnson grew to be 6-foot-7 in high school, he was able to develop an inside game and become a two-time First Team All-District player averaging 15 points and 9 rebounds per game..
"He was a late bloomer and didn't have all the accolades a lot of other guys had," said Craig Carroll, Johnson's brother. "As the years progressed, he developed confidence in himself. I just realized the talent he had and the true gift he had. We just tried to put him in a position to be successful, and it wouldn't have been anything if Wesley didn't embrace it. He did that."
Late bloomer. Lack of confidence early on. Obvious talent. You can already see the parallels starting between Johnson's career in high school and Johnson's career in the NBA.
He bounced around for a while after high school. He initially committed to play at Louisiana Monroe, but opted to go to prep-school after the coach who had recruited Johnson retired. He then elected to go to Lon Morris College, but quickly changed his mind, and attended the Patterson School in North Carolina. Johnson stayed at Patterson for only about two months, then transferred to Michigan's Eldon Academy, which shut down shortly after his arrival. Finally, he committed to Iowa State.
Wesley Johnson's career at Iowa State started off strong. In his freshman year, he averaged 12.3 points and 7.9 rebounds per game and led the team with 33 blocks. DraftExpress called him the most statistically productive freshman in the Big 12. Yet, even as he was putting up solid numbers at Iowa State, scouts still recognized signs that Johnson would have trouble with his shot and his ball handling.
From an October 13th, 2007 article by prep scout Rodger Bohn (emphasis mine):
"Johnson displayed the ability to shoot the ball from the three point arc as well as from midrange, although without any real consistency. He would go on stretches of hitting two or three 3-pointers for a couple of games in a row, but would then go without connecting on a single 3-point attempt in others. The lengthy forward even dropped five 3-pointers on Missouri last February, although in a blowout loss. In terms of the form on Wesley’s shot, there is very little to complain about. He releases the ball from a high vantage point and gets the ball off in a hurry, while maintaining consistent form either shooting off the dribble or on the catch and shoot. Simply put, Johnson appears to be a better shooter than the numbers reflect."
"Ball-handling is the one area of Johnson’s game that clearly has the most room for improvement. He is strictly a two dribble straight-line dribbler, unable to create much more than what he is able to get from catching the defense off-balance with his initial first step. Often Wesley will look for a high ball screen when he has the ball in his hands, primarily to make up for his inability to create off of the dribble. His first step allows him to create enough space to get his shot off on a consistent basis, somewhat minimizing the effects of his below average dribbling ability."
In Johnson's sophomore season, things began to get even worse for Johnson, who started to feel pain in his left foot. Although X-rays at the time revealed no damage, Johnson struggled in some games, sat out in others, and drew the ire of the Cyclone coaching staff - led by Greg McDermott - who felt that Johnson was soft and should have been playing (and playing better). In the games where Johnson did play, he averaged 12 points and 4 rebounds per game,
X-rays taken after the end of his sophomore season showed that Johnson actually did have a stress fracture in his left foot. 20 days after Johnson underwent foot surgery, he packed up his belongings, left his apartment at Iowa State and decided to transfer to another school. That school ended up being Syracuse University. Scout Rob Murphy was impressed with what he initially saw in Johnson.
"Coach [Boheim] puts guys like [Johnson] in a position to be successful," said Murphy. "Our forwards always do well here. Carmelo. Hakim Warrick. Donte Greene. If you do what you're supposed to do, you'll be a pro.." When asked why Murphy liked Johnson so much, he cited how well Johnson came off screens, the lift he got on his jump shot and the way he went after rebounds.
At Syracuse, Johnson started to emerge as a national prospect. He put himself on the radar early in games against Cal and North Carolina in the Preseason NIT and played well against the Big East, including a 20-point, 19-rebound performance on the road at Seton Hall.
At halftime of that game against Seton Hall, he was shooting only 3-of-10 from the floor. Coach Jim Boeheim came to him during the break and tried to light a fire under Johnson.
"He said I couldn't keep playing within the game," Johnson noted in his post-game interview. "I was really out there just watching. He told me be the leader and go out there and be dominant." It worked, with Johnson scoring 13 points and grabbing 12 rebounds in the 2nd half.
Johnson finished up his season at Syracuse with numbers of 16.5 points and 8.5 rebounds on 50% shooting (42% from behind the arc). His performances started catching the eyes of NBA scouts and soon, he was standing out as a potential lottery pick. After he attended Tim Grover's Late Night ATTACK Athletics Workout in Chicago in the May before the 2010 draft, the rave reviews continued to pour in.
Jonathan Givony noted that, "Any team working out Johnson over the next month or so is bound to come away extremely impressed. He’s far more skilled and polished than most players entering the NBA. He’s ready to contribute immediately, which has to be incredibly attractive to the teams in the lottery who want to get better right away."
As far as his age perhaps being a limiting factor in contrast to some of the younger players in the draft, Johnson countered, "I look at that as a positive more so than a negative. I didn't start playing basketball til' the 8th grade or 9th grade. I'm a late bloomer. I'm still new to it basically. I'm still learning a lot."
We all know what happened next. The Timberwolves did come away impressed with Johnson, as Givony said they would, and decided to draft him with the #4 overall selection.
"Liked him, as I thought he would. He has a beautiful stroke. He has almost a classic basketball body. Good height. I thought he picked things up very quickly during the workout. He clearly can run, which is so important to all of us in terms of how we want to play. Shooting on our team remains an issue and I know he can help us with that almost immediately." - David Kahn, after Johnson's Target Center workout on June 16th, 2010
Jonah Steinmeyer from the blog Howlin T-Wolf observed on December 22nd that, "[Wes has] turned into a priceless and valuable player...a golden asset that has performed well for the team this year and might be quite useful down the road."
ESPN's David Thorpe observed, "As written in this space before, despite his sleek athleticism and smooth jumper, Wolves fans and coaches have to be most impressed with Johnson's poise as a passer. The offense he's in demands good timing to be effective, which means perimeter players have to be patient as passers, letting the post action develop. Johnson is rarely in a rush and his IQ is strong, so he sees the plays develop while also being able to deliver the crisp pass for the easy shot. That skill is part of a set of talents sorely needed in Minnesota."
Yet, while there were positives to look at for fans and analysts, there were also some glaring problems. There were stretches - sometimes as long as six games in a row - during which Johnson would not take a single free throw and would remain simply a spot-up shooter. He had some good games in this role - two of the most notable were against Cleveland (20 points on 8-of-9 with 6 boards and 2 blocks) and New Orleans (24 points on 8-of-12) - but ultimately, he did not shoot well enough or contribute in other ways enough to make him a player who contributed to many Wolves victories.
In Thorpe's same article as the quote from above, he remarked, "Johnson may look like a slasher, but he plays like a gunner. Outside of the rare transition shot, he almost never takes shots from inside 15 feet. It's a problem to be that dependent on an outside shot at such a young age (though he's old for a rookie, he's still a young player), and his shot dispersal looks like it comes from someone who is immobile, which Johnson is not. The fact is, he's made more 3s than he's attempted free throws"
The numbers back this up in a big way.
(from 82games.com)
For a frame of reference, even a guy like Wayne Ellington took 84% of his attempts as jumpers. Danny Granger and Shawn Marion - two names who often came up in the post draft days as potential upsides for Johnson - were at 77% and 53%, respectively. Only true spot-up shooters like Sasha Vujacic (93%) took a larger percentage of their attempts as jump shots. Unfortunately, Vujacic's eFG% was .483 to Johnson's .455.
As a result of Johnson's poor shooting and his inability to get to the free throw line, he became ineffective on the offensive end of the floor and the Wolves were an average of 5.1 points worse with Johnson in the game last season. Even on the defensive end, where one might say that Johnson showed the most potential last season, the Wolves gave up 1.4 fewer points per 100 possessions when Johnson was sitting on the bench.
Given Kurt Rambis' offensive and defensive schemes, one might be able to excuse Johnson's production in 2010-2011 as a product of a bad coach. Unfortunately, when looking at what has happened so far this season, it appears that Rambis was not the real problem.
Through the first ten games of the 2011-2012 NBA season, Wesley Johnson has taken more shots (58) than he has points (48); has taken only two more free throws than I have; and has only 4 more made field goals (20) than turnovers (16). His PER of 4.2 is 9th worst in the league and the other eight are made up of two young players (Austin Daye and Avery Bradley) and six career journeymen.
His shot selection?
93% of 58 FGA is 53.94. That means that only 4-5 of Johnson's 58 shots this season have not been jump shots. Given that he is only shooting 35% from the floor, only 27% from three point range, and is 1-2 from the foul line, Johnson is giving himself no chance to be successful on the offensive end. On defense, the Wolves give up 18.3 points fewer per 100 possessions with Johnson on the bench.
Rick Adelman appears to have finally recognized this inefficiency, since Johnson's minutes have gone steadily down in the first two weeks of this season. Johnson was only on the court for 9:24 against the Chicago Bulls, despite having started the game. His window of opportunity appears to be shrinking, even on a team that currently counts only rookie Derrick Williams, Wayne Ellington and J.J. Barea as healthy wing players.
Since 1980, there have been 165 players who finished their 2nd NBA season with a PER of less than 10.0 and a TS% of less than .425 (Johnson is at 4.2 and .408, respectively).
Know how many All-Stars have come off of that list? 0.The best names on it are guys such as DeShawn Stevenson, Brandon Bass and Shannon Brown.
At this point, you'd have to be happy if Johnson could grow to be as effective as Stevenson, who was the starting shooting guard for the NBA champion Dallas Mavericks. Like Johnson, jump shots account for more than 90% of Stevenson's attempts. Johnson also averaged more FTAs per game (and per-36) than Stevenson. The difference comes from the fact that Stevenson has become far more accurate, especially from three-point range, and that Stevenson's Mavericks gave up fewer points with him on the court than when he was off.
This is where it all comes full circle.
Wesley Johnson started his basketball-playing life as a guy who was great at three point shooting, but had to grow into other aspects of the game. In the pros, Johnson has turned himself into a player who most often parks himself behind the three-point line and waits for an opportunity to shoot.
Wes was a guy whose nomadic pursuit of a college, and his problems with what he felt was harsh treatment from the coaching staff at Iowa State, earned him the reputation as a guy who was "soft" and was not great at dealing with adversity. In the pros, Johnson shies away from contact and is one of the least physical players in the NBA. On the rare occasions when he puts the ball on the floor and attempts to make a move towards the basket, he starts from farther out and does it with so little aggression that it is almost always ineffective. He excels at converting easy baskets in transition attempts, and can get confidence if he starts shooting well early, but seems to fold when things do not go his way early on.
His demeanor and his background all suggest that he would be exactly the type of player that Johnson has turned into in the pros. Aside from a few months at Syracuse, his entire basketball career has followed this same pattern. That is why, when it comes to hopes about Johnson's future, they seem so slim. His ceiling seems to be a one-dimensional role player/spot-up shooter, and that may be a best case scenario.
The good news is that his problems largely seem to come from his head. His shooting form is solid, but his shots don't go in. His length and quickness suggest a guy with the tools to be a great defender - not to mention his solid performances against Kobe Bryant last season - but his overall defensive production is below average. His athleticism is fitting for a guy who could make his living at the rim and the free throw line, but Johnson is reluctant to go into the paint.
Unfortunately, changing someone's demeanor and attitude seem to be Herculean tasks compared to changing someone's shooting mechanics, especially when that demeanor has been consistent since middle school. Perhaps playing Johnson against the other team's second unit more often will allow him to regain some confidence. Perhaps coach Rick Adelman can motivate Johnson and put him in better positions to succeed.
For the #4 overall pick, however, relying on 'perhaps' is discouraging to say the least. The better course of action, in my opinion, is to hope that there is another front office in the NBA who still believes in Johnson's potential, loved his workouts and is willing to give up something of value for him. As this season goes on, it is far more likely that this list shrinks in size than it is that Johnson suddenly transforms into a player he has never been before.
585 comments
|
21 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Excellent post!
I was very much against drafting Wes because the data was pretty clear that he was unlikely to be a high-level player in the NBA. But you’ve put the data into a narrative and I haven’t seen that done before for Wes.
As others have said: this is the kind of quality writing that brings me back to CH. And it is far above the level of most “major sports sites”.
Wes Johnson stinks
Joe Mauer grounded into double play, second to shortstop to first, ________ out at second
Thanks for providing the evidence
Let’s hope David Kahn reads this.
Let’s hope David Kahn CAN read.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
The Bucks used 745 minutes of Joe Alexander over two seasons before realizing he sucked, cutting him, and moving on. The next minute Wes Johnson plays will be the 5,590th minute we collectively gave Jonny Flynn and Wes Johnson in their respective two seasons to come to the same conclusion Milwaukee did in 745.
United We Run.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
by Ebomb on Jan 11, 2012 5:30 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
Oh, ouch, ouch, ouch.
At least Wesley doesn’t foul at quite Joe Alexander’s rate. Mr. Alexander was a rival to such Bucks figures of the past as Todd Day.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Another blown Kahn pick
This team should be so much more loaded with talent. So much more. Kahn has continued McHales legacy of draft blunders. It’s very depressing.
Can someone please do an all hindsight TWolves team, to show what we might have been had Canis Hoopus been in charge of the draft?
I need more depression to last me…
Until the next TWolves game
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
The Draft Boards on the right side of the screen have us with these drafts:
This is only picks we kept and assumes we had the same picks in all of these years.
2008: (#3) Kevin Love, (#31) Mario Chalmers, (#34) Chris Douglas-Roberts
2009: (#5) Ricky Rubio, (#6) Stephen Curry, (#18) Ty Lawson, (#28) DeJuan Blair. (#45) Nick Calathes. (#47) Lee Cummard
2010: (#4) DeMarcus Cousins, (#16) James Anderson, (#23) Brian Zoubek, (#45) Willie Warren, (#56) Jon Scheyer
2011: (#2) Derrick Williams, (#20) Charles Jenkins
This lineup (in parenthesis are players not in the NBA)
PG: Rubio/Lawson/Chalmers/Jenkins (Calethes, Warren)
SG: Curry/Anderson (Douglas-Roberts, Scheyer)
SF: ? (Cummard)
PF: Love/Blair/Williams
C: Cousins (Zoubek)
Doesn’t solve the wing problems, but is significantly more talented.
I especially like the Rubio, Lawson, Chalmers backcourt
And the power forward tandem. Wow. Beasts! And No Darko or Pek!
Talk about living in a fantasy. But it could have been reality, if David Kahn was a CH subscriber.
Someone needs to start emailing him this website, for advice.
Just send it to david@idonthaveaclue.com
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
That episode shoud definitely go in the Q&A
;)
I still feel bad about that. (I’ve been told it happened in a few other meetings/interactions, as well.)
I think it's
getting called out after posting this. I think the follow up came in a comment thread or SBN’s searching has failed me. Was pretty fun to read in the moment.
by archie2227 on Jan 11, 2012 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thankfully....
….I have been assured it was a valuable learning tool for everybody involved.
At least everyone should now have a solid grasp on some of the reasons why media training was required (not just for public comments—the guy says a lot of things to a lot of people who have internet access and an email account) and we all get a reminder that people whose job depends on our entertainment might view things we write from a slightly less fanish perspective.
That being said, I still feel horrible about stuff like this.
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 11, 2012 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
There is no reason for you to feel bad.
You created (and maintain) this pretty great “place.” We are all responsible for what we write/say/do.
The irony of my situation is that before my semi-public shaming I was really just on the margains and now I’m a full-fledged CH acolyte ;).
I know it's too new a trend for anyone to believe,
but I saw that and just passed it by.
I’m a new me!
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 11, 2012 8:38 PM CST up reply actions
Chin up Newbie!
You’ll catch on to the inner snark that is the role of a CH commenter soon!
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
Theirs so much else too worry about in this world
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
Remind me of that
in three weeks. That should be about the point of the semester where I’m proofreading tags at the grocery store.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 11, 2012 10:57 PM CST up reply actions
Ahh!
It burns my eyes!
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Sometimes
I riff on a misspelling. But you’re right—it’s mostly grammar.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 11, 2012 10:56 PM CST up reply actions
you know,
copy editors is a profession that really needs a resurgence in this country. I remember as a boy reading novels (even in paper back) where typos and other assorted errors where less then one every few pages. The last paper back novel I read (400+ pages, from a major publisher no less) had 5 or six errors per page. I even read a novel not to long ago that had a sentence just end. I mean like right after the verb. it was like reading a transcript of bush during the debates. it just ended, obviously there was more to the sentence, but some how it got erased and there were no copy editors to say hay, wait a minute, lets find the rest of this sentence and get it in there before this goes to print. the end of copy editors as a profession is one of the true losses to those who are literate.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 11, 2012 11:26 PM CST up reply actions
I have too many to relate.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
Random apostrophe S
when not indicating possession.
Bringing honor to uncle rico's family since 2011.
by JMGrady on Jan 12, 2012 12:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This.
There-They’re-Their is really bad as well. I mean, they are pretty self explanatory. Not too difficult to get right.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
yep,
that one is pretty common yet also pretty easy to figure out, location, subject-verb adjective, and possessive.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
(The Girl's bathroom. The Boy's bathroom.)
Those mistakes are over doors at my local schools. “Girl’s” and “Boy’s” rooms.
Plural family names on Christmas letters. “The Smith’s 2011” reads like a character from Doctor Suess. The Onceler’s Christmas letter is particularly eloquent, consisting only of the word “Unless.”
"Opinion ...a confession."
I'm also a huge fan
of improperly used quotation marks.
We Now Use “Real” Beef!
Bringing honor to uncle rico's family since 2011.
does tnat mean that
prior to now, the beef was something other than “real?” if that is the case, what was the beef made of?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
That's certainly the question I would be asking.
You find it everywhere and it rarely fails to make me laugh.
Bringing honor to uncle rico's family since 2011.
This bugs the hell out of me.
Unless they are just using the word real ironically. Or quoting it from another label.
I maintain that I could have done a better job than the editors of my hometown paper
when I was in high school. It seemed like there was at least one blatant error on the front page every day – at best.
Just for fun, here’s an article from last year. Yep. Doesn’t even know the difference between poetry and prose, but is a writer.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
As the son of a physicist...
….I was often been told that innumeracy was spreading to the social sciences. Stupidity is contagious and it is those god-damned English majors who are making it happen. ;)
I have to cop to being
one of those English majors who is number-stupid. I took logic instead of math (and triumphed) because when I see numbers my eyes glaze over.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 1:50 AM CST up reply actions
No,
fixing massive numbers of typos is the job of Copy Editors. Once publishers got rid of copy editors, all hell broke loose in our professional writing. it just irks me that a company would release to the public something filled with so many errors, and with such regularity; its just not professional. as some one who suffers through dyslexia I understand how the errors got there, I just don’t understand how they can not have any one proof read before sending to print.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 9:23 AM CST up reply actions
Whiner
real men read illegal downloads. That copy of Whore of Akron I “reviewed” had a glitch in the conversion and all double "l"s were turned into single L’s as in “al for one, and one for al.”
And the last book of a series converted with no paragraph breaks. Trying reading wall to wall text for several hundred pages sometime….
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
with my dyslexia
that would probably be impossible
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
I'm all in favor of a resurgence in copy editors
As that might mean I could finally get a real job. Boo to piecemealing freelance gigs for the better part of a decade…
by deus04 on Jan 12, 2012 12:48 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I am in favor of this.
I am a natural annoyance to those around me, so copy editing is perfect for me. I both write and copy edit for my school paper. Having both of those as possible career paths doubles my chance of not being homeless.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Best advice I can give to so
Is to take lots of layout editing and graphic design courses. I picked up some of those skills after college, but not nearly enough. Also, website editing and design. I’m HTML illiterate, which has been a killer. Very few people are looking for candidates who “just” write or edit. I thought specializing was a good idea, but getting as many related proficiencies as possible is what you want.
by deus04 on Jan 12, 2012 1:35 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
(best advice to someone still in school)
Damn iPhone.
by deus04 on Jan 12, 2012 1:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
it seems
that no one is interested in editing these days. Even the high end Publishers put out books that are soo poorly edited it makes one want to cry. and that includes online material. (where even commercial websites don’t seem to have been constructed by any one with any capacity for design or layout. just a lot of utter crap out there.)
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
It's not that they're not interested in editing
it’s that their entire world is about to implode and they’re cutting corners to keep their jobs.
The total failure of publishing houses to adjust to digital is scary. It’s almost as if they think digital will go away if they just ignore it hard enough.
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
Its not just publishing houses either
Its shocking how poorly almost every industry has handled the digital age. Music, books, newspapers, film,even sports. Its sad because instead of embracing it they all try to avoid it or postpone the inevitable.
Except teh digital world
has no copy editors either. we as a society have just suddenly decided that crap is good enough for what should be professional work. I get that authors will make a lot of typos. hell I do it constantly. spell check has been both the the best invention and bane of my existance (how can a spell check not get geological if I spot it the geo?). but that is why porfessional institutions need Copy Editors. And why do Commercial web sites still use frames, scrolling text and blinking text? And have the same super abundance of typos that has befallen the world of publishing? It is just inexcusable and makes me want to scream and barf all over t the CEO’s “you don’t deserve a pay check until you fix this crap!” but alas there is no way for me to get a hold of any one. there are just no more contact numbers that are at all useful.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
Thanks,
I’ve heard a lot of that.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Sadly, papers are a few steps away from doing even that
They are still dealing with the tough call of telling their readers if the things they print are true or not.
and people wonder
why papers are dieing.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
I've avoided journalism thus far
Mostly I edit books, newsletters, that sort of thing. Easier on the soul, I’d imagine. I honestly don’t know how the world’s true journalists haven’t all dropped a toaster in the bathtub by now.
by deus04 on Jan 12, 2012 1:45 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
It's very unfair to say there are no true journalists left
but it’s hard to think of many who still work for major newspapers, big media having eschewed craft for reporting by rolodex long ago.
When newspapers started offering buyouts, real journalists were the first to jump ship (and those who didn’t got to walk the gangplank soon after).
Take the Strib for example. They just published a Baptist press release that made outrageous claims about most pastors not believing in evolution. The Strib published it straight up, not even bothering to note that only Baptist ministers were polled. Strib readers were left thinking that over three-quarters of ALL Christian ministers disbelieve in evolution.
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
Having monentarily worked in PR for an arts organization,
I was amazed to discover that the Star Tribune published press releases, verbatim, as “reviews.”
"Opinion ...a confession."
Not at all saying there's none left
Just commenting on how depressing it would have to be, given the environment, industry, etc. Like a chef stuck flipping burgers at White Castle (for those who have yet to bail).
Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
"I’m just explicitly not saying that it wouldn’t be wise not to worry about whether somebody did or did not do what they said they didn’t did. Do
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jan 12, 2012 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
wait,
is that from Pirates of the Caribbean?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That episode
Kahn calling you out at that meeting was not professional. As a leader, you are accountable at all times. If people want to question you, your methods or actions, so be it.
And a lot of the questions in the comments section of your post were legitimate and well thougt out. CH has a lot of bright minds posting. Some banter and joking must be accepted, even by Kahn. Damn it, he led (leads, unfortunately) one of the worst teams in NBA history.
Kahn can’t do stuff like that and expect to be taken seriously. This is not a hierarchy thing, either. If you invite people to a meeting. You must be prepared for questions, even from those outside the press. You don’t have to answer everything, but you treat peoplke respectfully.
I don’t recall if you were sworn to secrecy beforhand, but that doesn’t really change anything. If they want meetings in secrecy, they should only invite people that they employ.
Could I get
a better explanation of this series of events?
"This town, this night, this crowd
Come on put them up, let me hear it loud"
by Stay classy, Joe. on Jan 12, 2012 3:26 AM CST up reply actions
I get that feeling
I was actually around during that time frame but somehow the entire thing must have completely went over my head.
"This town, this night, this crowd
Come on put them up, let me hear it loud"
by Stay classy, Joe. on Jan 12, 2012 3:37 AM CST up reply actions
It was just petty
how Kahn reacted. You are a valued customer. The Wolves need to do all they can to keep you (PDGirl) in the fold. That you have a difference of opinion? So what? I’m in sales and sometimes people treat me poorly or have very different opinions then mine. And that’s OK, because I know that my job is to provide the best customer service I can to them and keep them buying my company’s products. Staying professionally above the fray comes with the territory, and for Kahn and the Wolves – well, they should be so lucky to have a community that promotes and generates/maintains interest in the team like this one does – for free, I might add. There have been some LEAN years, and without Hoopus how many hundreds or thousands of fans would’ve completely tuned out the Wolves over the last 4-5 seasons?
I’ve been a Kahn defender, but dude has got to go. This isn’t leadership, at least not the kind of leadership I want to see from my hometown team. Give me an actual freakin’ professional.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 12, 2012 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
I would be gone, personally, or at least more of a bandwagon fan
Most of my friends have viewed me as insane over the past few years for following the team so closely
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 12, 2012 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
I was thinking about it the other day.
I never would have become such a big Wolves fan without this Canis Hoopus, and to a lesser extent, A Wolf Among Wolves. In a lot of ways I’m fairly new to basketball. Sure I played a few years as a kid in grade school and hopped on the bandwagon in 03-04, but as my avatar indicates, baseball was my first love, sports-wise. But since then? I couldn’t have cared less. I didn’t really sit and watch and try and figure out the game and become a fan until the ‘10 finals(Aside: I don’t care if KG is a jerk now, I still wish he’d have gotten his 2nd ring.) and The Decision. For better or for worse it was one hell of a plot twist, and while it got me in on basketball as a whole, my loyalties as to which team I’d actually root for were still up for grabs, despite some natural homer tendencies.
Then last year happened and I became a serious Wolves fan. Think about that. I signed on to become a diehard fan of a 17 win NBA team with Kurt Rambis, Darko Milicic and Johnny Flynn at the same time I knew the league was well on the way to an inevitable lockout. Granted they had a unique and under appreciated talent in K Love already on the team and there was the possibility of a magical unicorn on the horizon but who the hell does that without a damn good reason?
I guess I don’t really know where I’m going with this other than to say that Kahn should sack up and realize three things: First that he is in a job where his performance will be scrutinized publicly. Second, that it is the very people that do this that also drive interest in his team and help him keep his job if he happens to do it well. Third, stop drafting guys from Syracuse.
can anyone point me to the exact place? I’m curious but can’t find what you feel bad about :D
by Wim (Belgium) on Jan 12, 2012 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
So he does the opposite
of what is suggested here? Not good.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Still confused at how he knew you posted on here (that was the story right)
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
He knew because
(1) my ticket guy, who invited me to the meeting, knew I was a CH fan (at the time I hardly even commented, although I did post the objectionable thread— referenced by archie above) and (2) I was the only female in the entire room (my name is PDGirl).
I never really posted about what happened because I just felt at the time I’d been really naive in thinking that DK/the front office wouldn’t have read or wouldn’t care about what I’d posted. I felt bad that my post was interpreted as me having ill intent, and stupid/naive that I didn’t realize how I’d be perceived.
I’ve spent a whole lot of time and money on this foolish basketball team and I (sadly) really do care about it…for me, it wasn’t about playing “gotcha!” with David Kahn—I posted the thread so I wouldn’t feel like a complete jackass in the meeting. I had no idea what to expect and wanted to take advantage of the opportunity. I LOVE basketball, but I am not remotely an expert…one of the things I have always loved about CH is how much I learn, and how it helps me think about the game in new and different ways. CH also kept me really interested in the team, even when there was seemingly little to be excited about.
In any case, in the end, I did feel like a complete jackass, but that was because he called me out and told me that my big mouth compromised his ability to be candid with the other people in the room (all of whom were men, many of whom were a lot older than me and who have spent much more time and WAAAAAAAY more money than me over the years on this foolish basketball team :).
Despite this experience, I did renew my season tickets. The team is really looking a lot better. I have a funny story to tell people. And now I’m a lot more active on Canis Hoopus :).
by PDGirl on Jan 11, 2012 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 12 recs
I am a fan
of fans like you.
Eff off, Kahn!
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 11, 2012 7:36 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
He was wrong ...
… from a lot of perspectives.
Read my comment above.
Kahn was unprofessional at the meeting, not you.
by lurifax on Jan 12, 2012 2:53 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Well, at least something good did come of it ;)
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
....am I really the only one who thinks he was making a joke and it just came off poorly because he can't tell a joke?....
I do feel bad that you felt that way, you had no reason to feel like a jackass and kudos for handling it in stride.
But I just feel that incident gets blown out of proportion by the board.
by googoleeoottooooleeoottooooleeeatta on Jan 12, 2012 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know him, certainly not to make those kinds of judgments.
The big takeaway from me is that I am more careful about what I say on here, at least as far as it relates to actual human beings who I might meet face to face :).
Yeah, really, the whole thing could have been a really clumsy handoff for Kahn.
It’s not like the Timberwolves seem to be all that coherent as far as how communication goes up and down the tree. An intern preps Kahn with basic information about each session, he’s clumsy about how he describes it to the group, and it comes off as a low-key sort of browbeating.
Even so, though…. You’ve been durned fair about it with him.
"Opinion ...a confession."
(When David Kahn punishes you with a lack of candor, what does it even MEAN?)
"Opinion ...a confession."
Wow
I would say if you visit CH you’re a pretty big fan, and to try to prepare for a meeting with DK is smart. For him to make that a negative…Douche.
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 7:39 PM CST up reply actions
Also sorry I called you a douche, Kahn
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 7:39 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I missed this episode. I think you should be commended
for taking the opportunity to question Kahn seriously. He should be ashamed for “calling out” any fans of a franchise that has performed so horrendously for so long.
A guy with a track record like Kahn’s can’t afford to have thin skin. It is really pathetic that he couldn’t shut the **** up and take his lumps.
I don't think
it’s about thin skin, it’s about when somebody tells you (whether that’s david khan or your mother) something that’s not for public dissemination and asks you not to disseminate, that you respect their views.
These aren’t state secrets, but there’s a certain amount of courtesy that should be applied.
Nothing was disseminated.
This wasn’t about a breach of trust. This was about Kahn declining (or conspicuously proclaiming a declination) to disseminate information based on the (largely assumed) presence of a person who posted on a blog.
It was weird.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 11, 2012 10:59 PM CST up reply actions
Yep
Also, POBOs shouldn’t say finable things in public. Even to the most high rolling season ticket holders. If you want to talk about someone on another team’s roster, do it in your room. Scream it into the pillow.
(And yes, he has an extremely thin skin.)
Also, “courtesy” doesn’t exist if you say things to multiple people in an open setting. People talk. It happens. There is no such thing as trust in the public square. Discretion, yes. Trust, no.
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 11, 2012 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
"David, what information are you so paranoid about becoming public?"
“Are concerned I might reveal something that would cause us to win only 16 game next year, instead of 17?”
Looking for tickets to Wolves' 2011 NBA Preseason Champion ring ceremony, banner unfurling. Please contact
by Black Jack Davy on Jan 11, 2012 8:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It's also cheap misdirection
What he wasn’t going to say anyhow, he blamed PDgirl for him not saying. Watch a political press conference sometime. At some point the person at the podium will decline to answer something, but they’ll blame the questioner for their non-answer.
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
As often as I toss little jabs at Kahn, let's be fair.
He really was candid, too candid, with those season ticket holder meetings. He’d go into those lunches, or whatever they were, and lay out his plan of the moment for the team. This was a sincere attempt by him to be uncommonly open with his season-ticket-buying public.
PDGirl says at the beginning of that old post that she’s “been encouraged to ask ‘tough’ questions.” From what I kept hearing about those meetings, Kahn really invited those questions.
That things like PDGirl’s “Tips for my Lunch with David” thread got bungled in this way speaks to a lack of preparation, but the intention wasn’t as shallow as a classic politician blame-the-questioner tactic. Kahn was winging it, and he misplayed this one.
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Jan 12, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Recd...
Kahn was VERY candid in those meetings. I enjoyed them and am sad that it has to be this way. PD girl was 100% correct. But at the same time….Kahns in a bad spot where he wants to tell people something but cant becuase of the fact that it might be online in 2 hours. I see both sides.
No excuse for him to make you feel bad at the meeting though. That was low.
"But this one goes to eleven..."
I don't want to go into this more...
but I was not told before I arrived at Target Center that it was all a big secret, or else I would not have made the post. Maybe that was another thing I was naive about, but that was my perspective, and why I was caught off guard at the response I received. At the time, I’d have preferred being disinvited to being treated in the manner that I was.
(Just felt I had to address that since people seem to be under the impression that I was being indiscreet…as discussed by SnP, feral, etc.—perhaps there was a lack of communication/planning and maybe I am partially at fault, but I wasn’t trying to violate confidences).
Seriously?
Where has the team been, oh, the last 20 years since DARPANet changed everything?
Maybe that was another thing I was naive about, but that was my perspective, and why I was caught off guard at the response I received.
You were not being naive. The team is being naive if they think they can tell season ticket holders ‘confidential’ information about their plans or views and not risk that it’s going to get out somehow. What gets me the most is that a team with the great (and now sadly departed) Jonah Ballow (who would connect with CH folks from time to time) would be this ignorant about what might happen at a lunch with fans. I mean come on!! You’ve got one of the league’s best social media guys working for you, producing great content and connecting with the local blogging community and yet you somehow think that that doesn’t apply when you have a lunch where the POBO is thinking about discussing ‘confidential’ info with season ticket holders? Maybe our POBO needs to realize that season ticket holders are not people you should be considering discussing ‘confidential’ information with.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 12, 2012 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
Didn't realize he was gone
so I went and searched his name on The Google. Turns out he’s moved onto the Knicks. FUUUUUUUU
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 12, 2012 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
Basically my take on it was that the team was really very loose about something that
had such potential to be a problem. That’s partly Kahn’s naivete about public relations, but mostly it’s the sort of slipshod organization we have under Glen.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Remember the lockout presser where he mentioned Rubio and Miller?
I am pretty sure that plus a few “too candid” moments were the result of his media training and current eliptical duties.
I, for one, don't care what David Kahn thinks of me
So let me say that I think, while he’s made a couple good roster moves and nailed the Adelman hire, I happen to think he’s a smug, arrogant prick. He’s demonstrated, by this episode, a complete sense of paranoia and a fragile ego. I also find him to be a massive hypocrite considering his media background, and since he’s a public figure in charge of an organization many have invested money and time in to see it become successful, his handling of fans’ complaints after two of the worst seasons in NBA history is sad and incorrect.
So as far as I’m concerned, I don’t care that he sees me say “David Kahn can kiss my white ass.”
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Jan 12, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Smug, arrogant, prick, hypocrite, who's paranoid with a fragile ego.
Don’t hold back now with being a judgmental jerk…
Right back at you
Don’t hold back now with being a judgmental jerk…
"I know you're from Middle America, and sometimes you feel like you're representing more than just a school or a conference, maybe an entire group of American citizens out there."
by Twin Cities Hawk on Jan 12, 2012 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
to add insult to injury
Cousins is completely owning the Raptors’ frontcourt right now.
He would look sooo good in Adelman’s system.
This is what would've happened if you put the draft on auto pilot.
Goes to show a robot computer set with espn rankings could run this team better. Outside of trading for Beasley and Randolph which are pretty minimally good trades what has this guy done?
by Doug West Domination!!! on Jan 11, 2012 11:35 PM CST up reply actions
That actually works for the stock market too, actually.
random picks v. human choice often
Great post
But hindsight is 20/20.
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
No
There were plenty of people who thought Wes was the wrong pick at #4. At the very least, he could have drafted Cousins, who had much more value IMO. He then could have recieved a kings ransom from other suitors, and still gotten Wes. The #4 pick in the draft had more value than just picking it and getting nothing else in return. There were many wing players available, and we didn’t even need a small forward, we needed a shooting guard. Still do. Kahn blew this pick, and I knew it at the time he made it
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Wes was the consensus pick at the time, though
And don’t tell me we should have picked Cousins. That guy is a poisonous player and the last thing we needed.
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 5:49 PM CST up reply actions
No.
Many of us on here wanted George over Wes (preferably in a trade down, but would’ve taken him at #4). And many of us thought Wes was no better than half a dozen other guys destined to go much later (Anderson, Henry, Babbitt, etc).
"Many of us" =! Not consensus pick
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 5:56 PM CST up reply actions
For those who thought this from the start, no.
But since most were fine with the pick, I was kind of referring to most with my post…
MY POINT STILL STANDS
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 6:29 PM CST up reply actions
The consensus pick was Cousins
And in hindsight it is still Cousins. Even if he is a headcase, he currently holds a ton more value than Johnson in a trade.
by archie2227 on Jan 11, 2012 6:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No way
the consensus pick was Favors, only we had the slight problem of drafting the spot below where he was taken. We should’ve traded back, but hindsight is 20/20.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 11, 2012 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
The consensus pick
was to take whoever Kahn decided not to take.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
In hindsight
you take the guy that is young and actually improving along with making the rumored trade for Flynn for #10. Sure, call Cousins whatever, but the dude can play basketball well. Some team would happily give Sacto a non terrible wing for him.
link is insider.
Meant to put that in the link. Guess parenthesis aren’t allowed.
From that post:
10. Wes Johnson: (120.5)- Wes Johnson is going to get a lot of mentions with Wolves fans but he has some fairly significant red flags. If he were drafted by the Wolves, he would start the season as a 23 year old swing man from Syracuse (hello zone!) who needs work on his handle. Midway through the season he went through a dry spell that reminded everyone of the player he was at Iowa State: a nice player but not someone to consider with a top 5 pick.
And that's
- in tier two. CH had him #14 overall.
...I've been drinking...
twolfcast ep5 available now! http://twolfcast.podbean.com
nonono.
SBNation’s automatic lists screwed me. Let’s try again:
And that’s number ten in tier two. CH had him #14 overall.
...I've been drinking...
twolfcast ep5 available now! http://twolfcast.podbean.com
He was #14...
And that was too high!!!
The artist formally known as Shane Heal, but FORMERLY known as Blakeley
Hello Wolves
Cousins is the real deal, please don´t be fooled by all the badmouthing going on. Of course there are some issues, but he´s working on it and his on court attitude has already improved greatly. As a Kings fan I´ve watched every game, this isn´t supposed to piss anyone off, but I wouldn´t trade DMC for 9 Wesley Johnsons.
Btw, your team is really fun to watch this season, here´s to hoping both our teams are on their way up.
I hate to say it, but it is mostly sour grapes
If Wolves fans were honest, they’d definitely trade 9 Wesley Johnsons for one DMC and know that your team wouldn’t accept. Even if his attitude problems don’t improve and he is hurting the team chemistry, you could still trade him and receive far more in return than 9 Johnsons.
Argg. The Wolves drafting makes being a fan so hard.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jan 13, 2012 8:43 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Cousins is very skilled.
Tyreke Evans is very skilled. If there are two young, highly skilled players in the league I would not want to build my team around I’d pick Cousins and Evans. Good luck with that.
Cousins just made ESPN's all surprise team
DeMarcus Cousins
Seriously. All the attention focused on the Paul Westphal situation has distracted everyone from how much Cousins has improved from last season. He’s in much better shape and posting a monstrous 20.8 rebound rate. Despite criticism of his shot selection, he’s posting a better TS% than last season — one that would be dramatically better, as our Kevin Pelton pointed out, if not for an unusually large number of rimmed-out chippies. He blocks nearly two shots a game and takes numerous charges, and he has his way against star players too. Cousins neutralized Orlando’s Dwight Howard by drawing several fouls and overwhelmed L.A.’s Pau Gasol with his physicality.
The only thing holding him back is fouls — he’s picking up nearly one every five minutes, making it tough for him to stay on the court.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
by Action on Jan 11, 2012 6:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and just when you think you know a guy
He goes and make the All Surprise Team
by TO12 on Jan 12, 2012 4:11 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
That should really be the "Corey Brewer All Surprise Team."
Every moment an adventure.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Forget Cousins
let’s talk about Greg Monroe. 32 and 16 on 75% shooting last night. 8/8 from line. All without getting his coach fired!
Wow!
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jan 13, 2012 8:44 AM CST up reply actions
Wes was the Consensus pick
Kahn came out and said that we liked him. There was some variability in mock drafts but as soon as he did that everyone penciled Wes in. Personally I wanted Cousins or a trade down as did a lot of people I know and now I know that a trade down probably would have been far superior to Cousins.
Wes was arguable at 4
but he was a consensus top 7 pick by everyone.
Kahn blew the pick. but he wasn’t the only one who felt Johnson was worthy of a very high draft pick
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
We
need more polls, that way we can objectively determine the “consensus” attitude at that time.
Also, a time machine
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
Every stat based analysis I read at the time had Wes around 9 or 10.
Every subjective-only analysis I read had him at 4th or 5th.
So I can understand CJ, why you think Wes was a “consensus” #4 pick. But some of us have a little wider reading list and he was most definitely NOT the #4 pick by many of the sources we most trust, nor was he the #4 pick here.
So do the right thing and stop trying to buttress the “hindsight is 20/20” comment. Admit that some very intelligent people on this site and others did foresee what Wes would become.
Its obvious I was wrong from the first few replies
I even acknowledged it, albeit through sarcasm…Darn internet.
I just had a shoddy memory of the draft. Although he or cousins were the 4 picks I saw the most in mock drafts, that much is certain…
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 13, 2012 4:42 AM CST up reply actions
I realize you wish to be right
but I don’t think that anyone anticipated THIS Wes.
I was no fan of the pick
but Wes was largely considered a top 10 pick. CH was the only place I can remember that didn’t have him as a top 10 pick. I’m a huge draft guy, trust me. Major outlets all had him in the top 10.
This doesn’t let him or Kahn off the hook, I’m just saying
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
That's fine.
But I want a GM that makes the right pick, not the one that makes the same mistake others might as well.
I don't think many GM's would have made the same bad choices Kahn made
All the trades, all the high draft picks, the numerous moves, and how many were the right move?
Trading Foye and Miller for the rights to Rubio. All might be forgiven on that move alone. But that was a no brainer at the time, as Rubio should have gone as high as 2. You know it’s a no brainer if Kahn made it, and it worked out.
But man, he has really made a LOT of bad moves, and very few good ones. The jury is still out on the Beasley move. I might even say Beas has been a bust. I want those picks back.
Hiring Adelman was a great move, and one everyone here supported. Another no brainer.
Other than those 2 moves, he has managed to move a lot of dead weight for a lot more dead weight. And all we have in salary cap space is the mid level exception.
So far, Kahn has done a poor job of rebuilding this team, considering all the assets he had, and all the moves he made.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
My point isn't as much defending Kahn as it is just pointing out
that it’s not like Kahn took two guys that were considered 20’s type draft picks at 4 and 6
You can question the term consensus all you want but every major draft outlet had Flynn as a top 10 pick and Wes as a top 10 pick ESPN, Hoopshype, Draft Express, Real GM, NBADraft.net and more.
Kahn made the decisions, he blew the picks, but it’s not like he was the only one that valued (overvauled/misvalued) these players.
Even CH had Wes as was it 14? Which is a lot more realistic, but it still has him as a reasonably functional NBA player which he currently isn’t
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
i'll say what i say a lot
it is a crap shoot inside of a lotto:
http://82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm
you get hung up on the number of the pick a lot. let that part go.
Chandler Parsons
As long as we are talking about Kahn’s drafting skills, is it too early to add this name to the list of misses? It looks like he is starting at the 3 for the Rockets, and I believe that he has even played a bit at the 2. Went for 20 against CHA the other night. Good size, decent ball handler and passer, can hit an outside shot, rebounds….. I realize that it is still very early, but I think he would have fit in nicely with the Wolves. However, we did get that all important asset, CASH, when we traded/sold him back to the Rockets.
11 days to go and we'll see for ourselves
When we play the Rockets
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Well, he is still on the roster and playing while Marcus Morris, their lotto pick, was sent to the D-League.
Hooray for PHX finally getting the better twin!
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Maybe the better Lopez twin
But what about the Van Arsdales? I think Dick did have a marginally better career than Tom. Any other sets of twins I am missing?
We had Jarron Collins 2 years ago. Robin. We also had Taylor Griffin, who, while not a twin, is still the inferior brother (by a lot). Now Chuck Morris.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Houston sends all of their rookies to the D-League
It’s like a team policy or something…
or they just haven't been drafting well
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
No really
I don’t have a link, but I believe its a stated thing. Morey thinks it’s a better way to develop players than garbage minutes and practice time.
Pretty sure they did it with Patterson and Budinger too, and they’re doing just fine.
that is bizarre
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I think it's a fine idea
it’s been said before, but the ignoring of the d-league by Kahn is pretty ridiculous given his background.
The Rockets are one of the best at using the D-League.
Morey loves it. But why is Parsons playing while Morris is with the Vipers?
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
If you say so
then so it must be
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
There are some strange things going on in that chart.
Not wrong, just very strange. (Like 3/4 ending up better than 2 by a fairly appreciable margin)
We don't need a chart to wonder why the #2 overall is often a Bermuda triangle pick in the NBA draft.
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Jan 12, 2012 3:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's the most disappointing thing about Wes and Flynn.
It’s not that they weren’t the best pick at their spot, or picked 10 spots too high. The way they’ve played, neither one should have been drafted at all. No one would have thought that at the time of the draft.
I didn’t like the Wes pick, but I figured he’d at least be a functional player who would be a step up for us at his position. Nope.
by Madison Dan on Jan 12, 2012 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
I agree - they've played like 2nd round picks at best
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jan 12, 2012 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
WBNA second round picks?
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Don't insult the WNBA like that.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think Flynn could supplant Whalen
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Whalen would have been the starter
for the wolves last year, and it wouldn’t have even been close. Hell, she’d probably make a good back up on this team this year.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
But to get her
Kahn would have had to give something of value to the Lynx in return. So much for that idea.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
by Action on Jan 12, 2012 2:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know
the season’s don’t overlap. don’t a lot of WNBA players play in Europe during the winter? I thought I read about a lynx player that did that every year during the WNBA offseason.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 3:02 PM CST up reply actions
By golly, you're right!
sign her up!
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
For me...
….the worst part of that draft was that thet had the 4th pick in a 4 player draft. They couldnt possibly f it up and yet they did. It reminds me of the game where they broke math by collapsing in a way whee they would have been better off just immediately turning the ball over the second they took possession (instead of fouling and whatnot).
I really don't know.
based on measurables and talent DMC should have been the 1st pick taken. 3 other teams passed because his attitude and mental make up had Bust written all over it, and still does. Sure he’ll put up some monster numbers occasionally but he’ll never really help his team win, while being a cancer in the locker room. just like all the other drafts, the Puppies where drafting one slot outside the star zone. a lot of people liked George, I liked George of Xavier Henry in a trade down. I didn’t want any thing to do with DMC. of course I was totally wrong on Henry, but still, DMC will not stick with the team that drafted him, and will end up with a career path much like Millicic. A player that oozes talent and measurables, but because of attitude will never put it all together.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
Be careful about your evaluation of Cousins, he's playing pretty well now.
From Hollinger:
Seriously. All the attention focused on the Paul Westphal situation has distracted everyone from how much Cousins has improved from last season. He’s in much better shape and posting a monstrous 20.8 rebound rate. Despite criticism of his shot selection, he’s posting a better TS% than last season — one that would be dramatically better, as our Kevin Pelton pointed out, if not for an unusually large number of rimmed-out chippies. He blocks nearly two shots a game and takes numerous charges, and he has his way against star players too. Cousins neutralized Orlando’s Dwight Howard by drawing several fouls and overwhelmed L.A.’s Pau Gasol with his physicality.
The only thing holding him back is fouls — he’s picking up nearly one every five minutes, making it tough for him to stay on the court.
His rebounding rate is higher than Love’s right now.
Does Adelman have a history of dealing with
head cases? I don’t think Cousins and Rambis would have worked very well (Oh no! He might have gotten Rambis fired!), but I would think Adelman could handle him.
Not sure
but I’ve been doing a little digging about what happened personnel-wise Adelman’s first year in Houston, and in no particular order:
- Adelman signs to coach the Rockets in May of 2007
- they acquire Mike James in a trade with us, then trade him (and Bonzi) away during the season after the two put up a (in WSper48/Ortg/Drtg) .037 WS/94/105 for James and a .091/97/99 for Wells in about 1700 combined minutes.
- Bobby Jackson was the primary asset they received in return, who put up a .114/105/104 line for them; well, Jackson and cutting $2.28 million in salary (Wells).
- they traded Kirk Snyder to us for Gerald Green, acquiring one nutcase for another, but also saving themselves another $900,000 in salary. This move was entirely a salary dump as Green played a total of 4 minutes for them after he was acquired.
- they signed Steve Francis at the beginning of the year, and then traded him the following season when he clearly wasn’t giving them useful minutes.
So, net result of Adelman’s first year there was trading away some ancillary guys to basically clear up cap space, getting rid of some pricier guys who didn’t fit (Wells, James) for a guy who fit better (Jackson) while mainly saving some salary, and developing a couple young guys named Aaron Brooks and Carl Landry.
What is really interesting is what happened over the summer after Adelman’s first year there:
- first they signed Brent Barry as a role playing shooter for $2 million, then they traded away Steve Novak and saved $700,000 on the cap, equalling a net $1.3 million spent
- and then a ‘singular’ move came where they traded for Metta World Peace as the missing ‘compliment’ to Yao, Scola, and Brooks. The biggest thing they gave up was Bobby Jackson, who at $6.5 million earned less than Metta’s $7.4 million. But with the other savings from the preceding year (approx. $2.3 million minus Barry’s $1.3 million), meant that they essentially broke even on the deal. Or put a different way, they traded away Mike James and Bonzi Wells for a useful rotation guy who allowed them to develop some other younger players. They then traded said useful rotation guy away and acquired another useful role player and a starter for a 53 win team.
- then they signed another useful role player, Von Wafer, who had a career year for them ($800,000)
- then, when they realized Stevie Franchise was done, they simply dumped his $2.6 million salary on Memphis for nothing.
- finally, they traded away Rafer Alston ($4.9 million) and acquired Kyle Lowry ($1.2 million) and Brian Cook ($3.5 million) – saving money in the process and getting a guy who would eventually rank 14th in the league in PER so far this year
Anyways, it seems pretty clear that Adelman can analyze which guys are the ones to keep and which ones you can get rid of, and even more important is that the guys they pick up or target in trades – despite not being ‘big’ names – almost always yield a positive value. There really aren’t any huge whiffs.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 12, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
So we're saying bye bye
to Beasley and Pek for sure
Wes and Wayne, probably
Darko is a maybe
Randolph and Williams are the two guys I would think they are looking to keep and develop on the roster out of the non RubioLove non excellent supporting crew
Ridnour probably gets traded for something that fits better even though he is excellent
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Yes Adelman has a history of dealing with headcases.
Read every other player he dealt with in Sacramento.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
Or Latrell Sprewell in Golden State.
I forget who the problem players were in his Portland years but there were bound to be a few.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
He had a bad shooting December, but is much improved in January.
Dec: 4 games, 32.1%
Jan: 5 games: 55.6%
And Hollinger is right – he was missing chippies. In Dec he was averaging 7 attempts inside 3 feet and had an eFG% of 35.7 on them. In Jan, he’s still averaging 7 attempts inside 3 feet, but his eFG% on them is 64.7.
He also was taking 3 shots a game from 16-23 feet in Dec. That’s down to 1.5 per in Jan.
With all due respect...
….Cousins is not anywhere close to being a force. Talent? You bet. Flashes will always be there with him. He’s simply too talented to not display those flashes SnP. Force as in consistent? Not even close.
And for what it’s worth, I am rooting for him to succeed. I still don’t see how Love/Cousins work together as a tandem anyway, and I understand the point about 4 player draft having 4th pick type of thing. Still I don’t think it was that simple then or now.
But we won’t agree on this so I’ll leave it at that and mention I’m really looking forward to the matchup on Monday night.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
True,
and his assist numbers have gone way down as well. Still, it all adds up to an improvement in WS/48 from 0.02 to 0.11 and in PER of 14.6 to 22.3. We’ll see if he keeps it going and doesn’t get his new head coach fired.
so he is a foul machine
that is a productive black whole on offense. those don’t really lend themselves to being part of winning teams. And he can’t be a superstar if he cant stay on the court for more then 25 min a game.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know whether he'll ever be a superstar
but I’ll take the guy with the 0.111 WS/48 at 21 years old over the guy with the -0.060 WS/48 at 24 years old.
Yes but even Darko flashes from time to time.
I seem to recall some pretty monster games from him against Tim Duncan and Pau Gasol. but his over all body of work has been terrible. DMC has a ton of Offensive potential (theres that dirty word) but he is a nut case. My prediction is that he is either traded or willingly (gladly) leaves Sactown when his rookie deal is done, and probably the next team as well.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
But its not "flashing from time to time"
Cousins, for his career is already a 14 point, 9 rebound 1 block center in only 28 MPG.
I don't think Cousins is the same kind of difficult that Darko is.
I see him as more of a Rasheed Wallace in his toolishness. Darko has no motivation. That’s not the issue with Cousins.
DMC isnt really flashing
You can see the game there and the fixes are fixable in his game, not his head. He is super super super skilled and super super super big. Kind of rare. He is a scowling jerk, so what? That is what player development was supposed to be for. Kahn wants you to believe it can turn guys like Wes and Jonny into real players. All along, if the team really believed in the concept, DMC should have been their guy.
Kahn’s comments about his athleticicm are especially grating. He just glosses over skill in favor of things that are sleek and shiny. Of course, this approach netted him the sleek and shiny Rubio, but it shouldnt actually be applauded for basketball acumen.
Yeah the shiny thing clearly is a big factor for David Kahn.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....
You'd think the law of averages would catch up to him
and get get a few right. But it is what it is, and now that Adelman is on board for the long haul, I fully expect to add real NBA talent in the coming drafts. Kahn should not be allowed near a draft room
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Rubio/Williams
I hate the fact I come off as defending Kahn….cause in the grand scheme of things I don’t he’s done a great job. But he has picked two very talented players, no-brainers, maybe but never-the-less he made the pick.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 12, 2012 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Rubio
The trade Kahn made to get the 5th pick is one of the best trades in the history of the team, he then not only drafted Rubio, he held firm on trading him despite a national belief that he would never play here. He also locked him in under the old CBA. I have defended Kahn in the past, and still say that this Rubio move is so good it washes out some of the bad, but he has otherwise done a pretty terrible job and probably needs to go.
by MoreJuice on Jan 12, 2012 11:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I was at the draft party at Target Center
Flew in fom CA and had to attend. When our turn came up, I held my breath. Then I exploded in glee when he made the choice. Rubio/Williams were the only picks he made that I agreed with.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
I give him less credit for Williams
Because it was such a no brainer and we were only in a position to get him because his other moves were so bad.
Why do people keep saying
Williams was such a no brainer. That seems like revisionist history. Stop-n-pop was all over Biyombo with that pick, others wanted Kanter or viliancunos (sp?). DWill was the national 2 pick, but many felt he would not even be in the high loto in a stronger draft, and many felt he was too small to be a PF and too big to be a SF and would never adjust to playing SF. and even right before the season one of the editors wrote a post on how none of the things Williams did well in College translate to the pro’s, while all the things that do translate, he didn’t do well.
I’m not saying it was a bad choice, just not that there was universal rejoicing when the pick was handed in.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 2:06 PM CST up reply actions
Since you asked,
Valanciunas.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
That's the guy I gushed about
sadly it was clear that much like the Johnson pick, Kahn had his mind made up to go with the “consensus”. Valanciunas is still in Europe this year and DThrill is producing (at the same position as Love) so I’m really not too mad but Val just looked like a center that had all the tools and a will to win. I honestly wonder if Clippergeddon didn’t play into this pick.
I actually thought Big V would help with Clippergeddon...
Drafting him would’ve still given us Rubio as our rookie this year, and then Big V as our rookie next year. its at least a distraction for the fans since we’d have a top rookie next year.
And I still say I think when all is said and done, Jonas will be the best player out of this draft. A true 2-way center with great skill on both ends and the right attitude/demeanor.
He made so much sense...
D-Will is promising so far, but we may be really regretting Val 2 to 3 years down the road.
Ultimately i believe Williams will
be the better NBA player
would Val be a better fit and would you take a worse player with a better fit? that is certainly debatable, but I don’t believe anyone will look back on the draft and say Williams wasn’t the 2nd best player.
Now, Kahn did screw this draft up but he screwed up in 2009 and 2010
let’s say had he gone Rubio/Derzan/Lawson
and then in 2010 gone Paul George and something else
2011 the CH consensus of Valanciunas or Byiombo would have probably been the way to go
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
"but I don’t believe anyone will look back on the draft and say Williams wasn’t the 2nd best player."
Possible. But I fully believe Valanciunas will be the best player from the draft.
I hope Williams will be the 2nd best, but I don’t see it…
totally
JoVal I really like and had Kahn not botched 09/10 I’d have been all over JoVal, but the need for another scorer to take the load off of Love is still pretty crucial on this club.
Had Kahn gone Derozan (Flynn) and George (johnson) Val would look pretty damn good as our cornerstone center.
I also am much more comfortable identifying college talent than I am international talent. I watch a lot of college ball and I feel like I have a solid grasp on translation to the pro’s….so that is also a bias in my “scouting” abilities I will freely admit
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I just think Williams is a long way form being a slid scorer.
He made his hay in college with an unreal 3pt% and the ability to beat college bigs off the dribble (although he was turnover prone). It looks to me like he has no clue how to get good shots inside the arc at the NBA level. Way too many charges, way too many blocked attempts and a lot of awkward looking shotss. But he’s great at catching lobs.
He’s still a bit undersized for the 4, and he’s a 2-footed jumper, so he isn’t that quick off the floor. I think he’s a hard worker, but he’s always going to be a tweener to me – and 3/4 tweeners aren’t that hard to find.
You know what is hard to find? A 2-way Center that is athletic and a super hard worker….
Is that JoVal?
I heard a lot of stuff from scouting sources I generally think are pretty good that said he would never be the athletic monster center you normally see go very high.
I honestly did not watch him play but what I had heard was how raw he was and how averagely athletic he was. I was under the impression best case scenario is a slightly better defensive Greg Monore, which still helps.
Williams has been able to get to the lane in the pro’s the only issue is he has not made the best decision on what to do when he gets there. He goes soft when he should go hard and gets his stuff beaten in and he goes hard when he should go soft and gets a charge.
It’s there, the ability is there. Will it all ever come together? only time will tell….but the ability is there for him to score tons and tons of baskets in the NBA
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Yes, its Valanciunas.
The guy is very young and has been dominating at every level. And right off the bat too. He can shoot, he can score in the post – he’s a very efficient scorer overall. He rebounds, he defends, he blocks shots. He’s got legit center height, long arms and a frame to add to his 240 pounds. He’s active and aggressive. IMO, he looks kind of like like a better Pau Gasol at the same age. Probably not the passer Gasol is, but he appears to be a “tougher” player.
Remains to be seen
I’m more impressed with your scouting report of him than anything I’ve ever read on the kid pre-draft
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 14, 2012 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Great point Sim.
BTW, Valanciunas totally dominated at the U19 world championships. I followed the team because creighton’s Doug McDermott was on it, and Val tore everyone apart.
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
Even so,
he’s far from a sure thing. Let’s wait until he plays some NBA minutes before lamenting his absence too much. Just look at Splitter, who I think had even higher expectations, and how much he’s stuggled to make an impact thus far.
I can not agree.
Valanciunas game is perfectly polished at such a young age it´s not normal, something like Ricky´s.
I think he'll be good too
my point is only that, aside from the “NBA ready” demonstrable skills that Valanciunas may possess, you just can’t predict how easily or quickly a foreign player will adapt to the NBA game.
I don't want to put words in his mouth
so feel free to correct me if this is wrong, but Snp was humping Biyombo pretty hard leading up to (and still is) the draft
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
I wanted a trade down for Biyombo
Thought it was a 1 player draft with 2 or 3 acceptable players in tier 2: Williams, Biyombo, and (i think….cant remember for sure) Knight. I thought there was no way Williams was anything but a big as a top prospect and that he had the most trade value. Something like Biyombo and Burks or the Charlotte draft would have been awesome.
Yeah,
I recall that you liked Kemba and Kawhi Leonard more than most. Any two of Biyombo, Burks, and Leonard would help this team. (Barea is our Kemba.)
Williams has done well, so I don’t worry about it too much, but it wasn’t the most interesting thing they could have done with the second pick.
More specifically
cash in Rambis’ wallet
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
I guess we must have decided
That Lee was the better prospect though. I thought Kahn said something like we traded down a bunch and still took the guy we wanted. So ill give Lee some time before getting too upset, but it’ll be damn hard for him to match Brooks’ production so far.
comments like that should never be taken at face value
simply because it would be insane to tell the guy you drafted hey we didn’t really want you but we settled…
I've seen two Utah games
and he’s getting limited minutes but I like what I’ve seen of Burks.
just a question
if you were picking, and you coudn’t trade down, woudl you take Williams because he was consensus #2 or would you take Biyombo?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
I'd have taken Valanciunas with the #2
if I had been unable to trade down a couple spots.
And I had Brooks at #20. Thus my team next year:
Rubio
Brooks
SF (maybe Wes, maybe Webster)
Love
Valanciunas
of course
my question was directed at SnP but thanks for the input. For what its worth, I really liked Kanter and Valanciunas, and didn’t want Williams. I was scared his skills would not translate and that he would be stuck behind Love, unable to transition to the 3. So far his skills seem to be translating, just needs consistency so that is good. hopefully he will be able to play the 3 but it will probably only be in real limited min this year.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 4:33 PM CST up reply actions
Biyombo
I can’t believe they couldnt have traded down, but yeah…gun to the head I think he is the second best player in that draft. He is in a weird spot in Charlotte. He will need development time but they also have Tyrus Thomas, Byron Mullens, etc.
Kanter is looking to be legitimate
He was one of those guys I hated to get excited about either way, because we had no numbers to go on, but I kind of liked him as our pick at #2. So far he is exactly as billed. An efficient and offensively competent center that rebounds as good as anyone in the league.
Between Kanter and Val, Kahn had a chance to draft a position of need without “reaching” on other attractive players like Biyombo and Burks.
Can;t complain about Williams since he has maintained his value, but the awkwardness of having another power forward has been very apparent thus far.
I just wish they would do something to show they have a concept of value.....
…instead of making trades for rehab projects and cash. If there is a one player draft or it you have a bunch of guys in the same tier and you can convince someone else to overvalue the pick ehile still getting a guy in that tier that you view just as highly, you make that trade happen. D Thrill was teed up for them on this front.
A monkey could have made those picks
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Methinks
we need to place a moratorium on the word “consensus” for a bit. Too many people have been using it without support lately.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 11, 2012 11:01 PM CST up reply actions
Sadly
this also requires a consensus.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
by nja700 on Jan 11, 2012 11:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Dammit.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 11, 2012 11:08 PM CST up reply actions
Triple post!!!11
Someone stop this guy before things get out of hand!
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 11:33 PM CST up reply actions
nobody stopped him..
and things got out of hand
Hipsters, man.
Random, but I just watched Bosh brick a 3. It was glorious.
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 11:45 PM CST up reply actions
Buncha freaking commie lefty pinko socialists.
I like it.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 1:51 AM CST up reply actions
Why do you keep using that word?
I do not think it means what you think it means.
Thanks.
I think the whole point, though, is that Wes has more or less – aside from a brief stint at Syracuse – been the same player all along. So far this season, he’s been worse than expected, but overall, he’s exactly the type of player he was in high school and at Iowa State. I don’t think that qualifies as hindsight, then, since there were people who identified what Wes’ biggest problems would be in the pros well before the 2010 draft.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
by TimAllen on Jan 11, 2012 5:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Right
I’m not saying people didn’t see these issues early on, but the majority didn’t seem to have a problem with the pick at the time.
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 5:57 PM CST up reply actions
Gah. Were you on this board back then?
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Jan 11, 2012 5:59 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
I was a lurker I think, but I have been coming here for a while now
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 6:30 PM CST up reply actions
Uh... I booed loudly on draft night.
Made a scene.
Embarrassed my friends, even.
Okay, that last part isn’t true.
At this point, it takes a lot from my behavior to embarrass me.
And, another of my friends went off even worse.
We were about 10 feet from Hanny and Pete at the draft party when they came out to discuss the pick.
And… well… we should probably feel sorry for how we acted.
But, I feel vindicated.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
Of the people that supported the pick, many were simply resigned to it rather than happy about it.
Wes v. Cousins was a daily debate (actually, Cousins v. Cousins may be more accurate) from the lottery to the pick itself. Trading down for more assets and taking the BPA was also a popular stance, as was trading up for Turner or Favors. There was no such thing as a consensus pick around here.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
And when we move the goalpost to "consensus pick in the league,"
we immediately run into the pretty obvious question of whether any team with a starting-caliber three on its roster would have imagined taking Wes there.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Awesome point
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
and as far as Wes being the "consensus" pick
by pundits and mock drafters, was the fact that leading up to the draft the wolves made it no small secrete that they wanted Wes, so he just got penciled in there with out any real analysis on where he really should have gone.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 11, 2012 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
Even at syracuse
Wes was the same player he has always been. Streaky. He goes on hot spells and dry spells, the only difference seems to be his confidence. Some one please get him to a shrink; he needs a Basketball Whisperer.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 11, 2012 10:37 PM CST up reply actions
Being a former Iowan...
With a few remaining ties to the state, I will say, in Wes’ defense, that Greg McDermott didn’t seem to know what he was doing at ISU. He turned a couple of appearances in the NCAA tourney at UNI into a Big 12 job he simply didn’t seem ready for.
(I think he’s better suited to a small school, which is why he’s doing so well at Creighton currently.)
Whether McDermott’s criticism of Wes was legit is hard to say, given what we know about both men. For Wes’ career, however, transferring to Syracuse was a very smart move, and might be one of the few smart moves the kid has made thus far, career-wise. I think starting his career under Rambis was a terrible stroke of luck, though.
that is an odd turn of phrase
at the end there.
As for McDermott, I will admit I know nothing about Iowa BB, but I did find it odd that a series of X-rays, showed nothing until after the season ended? especially when the player was complaining of pain the whole time? I would have transfered too.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
I wrote that really quickly.
The point I was trying to make, I guess, is that a career in basketball can be a fragile thing, and having two inept (or, at least, in-above-their-heads) coaches in very important years in a player’s development can create a lot of issues for an otherwise talented kid.
I got what you were saying
just that the phrase “terrible stroke of luck” would mean good fortune, when really you mean a tragedy.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
Stress fractures develop over a period of time...
He probably developed a strain first, which wouldn’t be visible in an x-ray. The strain probably worsened gradually into a slowly developing stress fracture.
by Krotz the Wall on Jan 12, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
however,
the pain and discomfort he would have felt was real, and definitely would have impacted his game, yet the coaches kept calling him a pansie. As some one who lives with foot pain, I’ve learned to just shut up because no one ever understands just how much it hurts, and how much the discomfort affects every physical activity you do.
now, having said all this, Wes’ current problems, and even some of his previous problems do seem to be psychological in nature. when he is confident in his shot, they go in, when he is not, they don’t. Also, he needs to be playing the 3. his skill set is not suited for the off-guard.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 2:16 PM CST up reply actions
Sympathies. My Morton's neuroma salutes you.
The world of athletics, in which coaches tell people to gut it out, has its authoritarian nightmare side for sure.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Not even coach's
I developed Planter Fasciitis in both feet at the end of My athletic days, and that was years ago. It just never goes away. Now it’s mostly family members that can’t understand why I hate standing for prolonged periods of time.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
For me, the Morton's neuroma led to back problems.
You learn to favor things, pushing off a certain way on that side. That leads to other problems. Damn, foot pain can suck.
"Opinion ...a confession."
What I read was that, since Wes was still playing on it, the foot
swelled up and the swelling was enough to mask the fracture. It wasn’t until he was off of it for an extended period of time that the fracture could be seen on the X-ray.
Follow me on Twitter @timallenonline
well,
the swelling should have been pretty indicative of a problem. also, shouldn’t the selling have liittle impact on an xray since they go right through flesh (the part that swells)?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
I've been saying this kid was shit since before we drafted him
So honestly I could care less how he does, the sooner we ship his pathetic ass off the better.
We should have righted a wrong and traded him plus whatever for Cousins when we had the chance a couple weeks ago.
There wasn't any chance to get him this season
by TO12 on Jan 12, 2012 4:13 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Cousins wasn't available a couple weeks ago. Especially not for a deal "starring" Wes.
Sac wasn’t trading a super talented, super young big. At least not until after they’d see how he’d do once they got rid of their horrible coach.
Disappointing
And to think he was seen as the “safe” pick. Kahn bucked conventional wisdom when he took Flynn, and he was wrong and got burned. I wonder how much that played into him not wanting to go against the grain with Wes.
A lot of Wolves fans regret not taking Cousins. Not me. At least not to keep. Yes, he’s talented, but reversing the culture of losing that has been allowed to fester in this organization for years is hard enough without a spolied, me-first brat constantly making things difficult.
I was actually hoping Kahn would trade down and pick up some veteran help. The team needed a lot of things, but youth wasn’t one of them. It was already such a young team. Plus Wes didn’t excite me much more than the guys projected to go in the 7 – 11 range.
I would have thought that Cousins was a unqiue enough talent that someone might have been willing to trade up to get him, but maybe there really wasn’t a good deal to be had there.
spolied, me-first brat
maybe he would have fit right in?
by WinTheLottery on Jan 12, 2012 8:18 AM CST up reply actions
The problem is..
..does the spoiled me-first brat put up 20/12 @ 50%+ or 15/8 @ 35%?
Wouldn’t mind the former, the latter is probably not worth it though.
Not the game preview...
Wow, I’m not used to all this negativity TA. Of course it could also be called reality ;) Wes needs to get his head right, be assertive, be fearless. Wolves draft picks tend to either completely suck or be incredibly good (Garnett, Rubio, Love…I know we didn’t actually draft Love, but McHale wanted him all along and made a great trade to get him, I won’t list all the crappy guys or the list would be 4 pages long).
Me either
I think he is as good as gone.
by Vandelay Ind. on Jan 12, 2012 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
I wonder...
If Johnson could benefit from playing more minutes with Rubio. According to 82games.com (which I don’t believe is up to date, but even so, wouldn’t change much) Rubio and Johnson have played ~12 minutes this season together. Rubio makes everyone around him better, especially spot up shooters. In addition, he tends to find guys near the basket.
If Johnson were to find himself with more minutes with Rubio, it may give him some better looks, and may give him more confidence to cut to the hoop more rather than sit outside the three point line.
Probably not, but worth trying, since the Wolves aren’t going to completely stop using him altogether.
Not quite exactly right
Near as I can tell Wes has played 26.65 minutes with Rubio this season, accounting for 13.5% of his overall minutes. Contrast that with the 75%+ of his total minutes played with Ridnour at the point. Where Luke has been clearly at his best this season is at SG, aka not creating for other people but stop and popping when coming off of screens. The more I think about it the more it makes sense to give Wes some burn with Ricky to see if the Unicorn can find him and get him going a little bit.
Putting the points for/against numbers into a spreadsheet (and not counting rotations with less than a minute spent together – SSSTheater – and yes, irony intended) – Wes and Ricky are +5 overall together. Wes and Luke are a whopping -57 points this year. Digging a little deeper, Wes and Barea (in very limited minutes together) are -2. So when Adelman says that this team needs more ball handlers, he may very well be telling the truth. Granted the sample size is so small with Ricky and Barea that it could be meanlingless.
On the other hand, we have abundant evidence that pairing Wes with a PG who’s best as a shooter (Luke), a SG sporting a 3.3 ast% or a SF sporting a 25+ USG rate, a PF who’s the focal point of the offense and a center who’s averaging 0.3 assists a game – well holy hell what in the world is any player supposed to do? Looking at those numbers…what in the hell is Adelman thinking? How are those guys supposed to share the ball?! Love and Beasley alone are using more than 50% of the possessions, and for whatever reason you add in Darko and that number jumps to 70.3% of the possessions used!
Ugh…what a nightmare of a starting five. For Wes to have any sort of chance he needs to play with Ricky or JJ, end of story.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 11, 2012 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Better is relative...
… crappy made better is probably slightly less crappy, but crappy nonetheless.
And consistent crappy
instead of downright horrible, might be worth 3-4 points a game for us (either in scoring or better defense), which might be worth 1-2 additional wins this year.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 12, 2012 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
This
And if he doesn’t improve with Rubio or JJ, then move on.
by PoohRichardson on Jan 12, 2012 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
So True
Wes is the definition of a tragic waste of talent. He has every necessary attribute to be an absolute monster in the NBA. Great height, length, athleticism, speed, leaping ability, strength. The list goes on. But the sad truth of the matter is that he has no toughness, physically or mentally. This completely admonishes his prospects of ever being a worthwhile player, and is a serious detriment to him every even being good. The reason why pencil framed pointy elbow Rubio is good is not because he is has superior athletic ability, but because he is a mental giant at the point guard position, will not take mediocre for an answer, and will do anything in his natural right to win. He understands the mental toughness and confidence one must have in oneself to be successful. Wes, like so many other wolves (Darko Dilicic) have no confidence, and never will. Their tails go so far between their legs as soon as adversity hits that they are either hiding on the court, or hiding on the bench. This is why Sports and entertainment are so huge in the world. They are a microcosm of the real world, and real personalities shine through in sports. When the going gets tough, the tough usually get going. Unfortunately Wes and Darko are made of tampons and charmin paper that their incredible softness out weighs they innate superior athletic ability that they will never amount to anything but bonafide scrubs.
by RickyRubio on Jan 11, 2012 5:59 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
When I think of Wes,
the first image that comes to mind is him laughing it up on the bench during another loss.
Darko has innate superior athletic ability?
He does a great job of hiding it.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
For a man his size, definitely
Looking for tickets to Wolves' 2011 NBA Preseason Champion ring ceremony, banner unfurling. Please contact
by Black Jack Davy on Jan 11, 2012 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
I think the word your looking for is...
heart.
Johnson has no heart. Its what seperates the so so players with lots of talent and the superstars with that same level of talent.
"But this one goes to eleven..."
Tim.. this was an outstanding article
I commend you on doing such a stellar job. I asked a question in a previous thread about whether you had aspirations of being a sportswriter, Wolves journalist, or something of that nature. Forgive my ignorance if you already are one, but when I asked you the question I did I was being serious even though I may have come across as a smartass. Articles like this one deserve to be on ESPN.com, Grantland.com, Hoopsworld.com, etc. In fact, it is better than most articles you read on those sites. I really hope Wes can turn it around because he seems like a good guy, but I am of the same conclusion you are in that it is extremely unlikely, and he is best traded at this point.
This single line from the quote:
“Johnson appears to be a better shooter than the numbers reflect.”
June 16, 2010: Wes Johnson works out with the Timberwolves. Video.
I wish I could find the old thread on that. Multiple people were saying “Wow, pretty shot,” and the observation that he was bricking a big share of them was sort of a wrench in the moment.
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Jan 11, 2012 6:09 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Great memory.
I definitely remember the oohing and aahing over Wes’ form, consistently coupled with the whole, “Why is he missing so many of those shots?” kinda thing. I can’t remember which camp I was in. Hopefully the latter.
maybe he needs some goggles.
it worked for Rick Vaughn.
Lob City? I prefer Skip-pass County.
by nodnarb on Jan 12, 2012 1:40 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That moment and my comparison of Wes to Rodney Carney made me feel like a real curmudgeon.
"Opinion ...a confession."
In order to get anything for Wes, Beas, and Pek
I would imagine that Rubio would have to do his magic unicorn act with them. I’m not sure if it’s worth it in terms of wasting the magic on lost games to “save” careers that might not be savable anyway. The resulting loss in confidence for the rest of the team is a real problem. Could a crisp pass to Wes as he cuts to the basket help him gain confidence to move without the ball? Of course it could, as it could with anyone on the Wolves squad.. Would it make him more likely to make the layup? By now, I think we know it probably wouldn’t…
Wes needs a major change of mindset, the sort that doesn’t come without some harsh reality forcing him to come terms with where he is headed. I feel pretty strongly that it will be with another team, whether we need a 2 desperately or not….
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
Wes would just drop the ball
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
I neglected to mention that once again Tim
your relentless optimism about individual players is luckily offset by your dour assessments of game outcomes! Nice Post!!!
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
I was wrong on Wes.
But I also felt that a worst case with DMC was that he would scare off Rubio.
Right now it feels like Ricky could tame that beast though.
Oh well.
Damn, this post is well done.
Clearly, the problems with Wes have always been part of his makeup. He’s been able to find success in the past by working through those issues—was it just Rambis keeping him from doing the same here? Did Rambis permanently ruin him?
I’d like to say it’s worth a shot to try to repair what’s been broken, but we need help NOW. I hope Wes finds a good situation somewhere else.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
All Wes needs
is a little Rubio dander sprinkled under his pillow at night
We should have known by the way he dressed on draft night
that he would be a collossal bust. No one in their right mind, or at least no athlete in their right mind, would walk out on a national stage wearing plaid pants and a double breasted sport coat. His outfit was hideous, and I nervously L’dMAO when I saw that getup. Wow! I’m not even into style, but I knew at first sight it was ridiculous.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
I think they should all be required to wear loin cloths
Gladiator style betoch
Can we just go ahead and completely strike from the record
that the acronym L’dMAO just happened?
You have a better word?
Let’s hear it. L’dMAO!
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
I think LMAO'd is recommended there
If you really need a past tense
by TO12 on Jan 12, 2012 4:18 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
He actually drew rave reviews for that outfit.
Another example where the “experts” didn’t get it right.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on Jan 12, 2012 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
What ever happened to Casperkid23?
I wonder if he still has his scouting reports on Wes.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 11, 2012 7:25 PM CST reply actions
And there it is
in a nutshell…again:
There is little doubt that he will be among the best athletes in the NBA at the SF spot the minute he steps onto the floor, and while this is something he should regularly attempt to take advantage of by attacking the rim, he either cannot or does not because he’s not confident in his handling ability.
Because of that fact, Johnson is primarily a jumpshooter. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, however, because he possesses one of the better strokes in the draft, regardless of position.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 11, 2012 7:34 PM CST up reply actions
I dont know bro
my stroke is unparalleled
I also tend to shy away from too much ball handling
seems like a good idea at first, but it generally ends up in confusion with multiple bodie falling to the ground
Fantastic post, TA!
I have to agree with SnP – time to cut bait. Could he turn it around? Well, nothings ever really certain – I’d rate it a Lloyd Christmas, “So you’re telling me there’s a chance… YEAH!!” But I doubt it’s going to be here (hope).
Not gonna get all playoff crazy or anything, but this team has managed to stay in every game this year. Imagine what we could do with even an average NBA wing right now?? God, if only we could infuse Wes with about half of Shaddy’s self-confidence…
"Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously."
— Hunter S. Thompson
Johnson needs more minutes
Adelman isn’t doing him any favors by keeping him on the bench. I think the problem with Wes is he overestimates his limitations and plays within very strict boundaries that don’t allow him to succeed. He can be a good starting wing player, but the confidence is lacking.
Now there's a polar opposite view, if I ever read one
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
haha
I do think he could stand to play with Williams/Rubio/Love/Tolliver
instead of Beasley and co.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
That should help to double Love's rebounding average
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Adelman might not be doing Johnson any favors
but he’s certainly doing ME a favor by keeping Johnson on the bench.
The Wolves are like the worst meal you've ever had--terrible while you're eating it and even worse later.
by Eric in Madison on Jan 11, 2012 9:16 PM CST up reply actions
I see what you did there!
you reversed your initials!
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 11, 2012 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
No
then it would be MiE
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
That is something only the great minds of our day can answer
Ask Kahn.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
MiE - I saw that movie!
Chris Tucker and Kevin Costner…
"Life has become immeasurably better since I have been forced to stop taking it seriously."
— Hunter S. Thompson
This was an unbelievably well written article
This Wes Johnson thing is so depressing.
We desperately need a 2 and he’s just bad.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Please, Tim
Do one of these for every failed Kahn draft pick.
That might take all season
and by the time he finishes, there’ll be a whole new set of draft busts to write about.
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
Was it my...
…Kobe finally becomes an everyman by saying “ball handling is difficult on my wrist”…tweet?
OK...
….so I asked Dwight Howard if he has ever planked a unicorn. We had a good night (hooray new job for our long time unemployeed neighbor!!!)
30 something fathers of multiple kids...
…we drink cheap liquor. not too much, because we have to get the kiddies to school tomorrow. but yeah, new job for a buddy = (relative) party time. he’s been unemployed for 2 years. (don’t get a msw kids)
That's excellent.
One of my college friends just got a job after two years of searching. That is some depressing shit. And then mix in a house and kids . . . forget it. It’s amazing what people are going through right now.
Thank you, two stupid wars!
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 1:54 AM CST up reply actions
Bank deregulation
played a bigger role in the collapse of the economy then the wars did. but we certainly could have used all those billions of dollars to spend on jobs creation projects to get us out of this mess quicker, not to mention all the lives lost or ruined by injuries that could have been avoided.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
What?
You have to grow in order to grow? You can’t cut your way to growth? ;)
I agree with the deregulation bit being a key factor in the downturn. Trillions of dollars in wealth were pretty much evaporated in a flash because insanely greedy people were told to do whatever they could to leverage as much as possible with no real motive except a fat bonus (instead of, you know, investing in things that will grow and help the economy). The downturn is, if I remember correctly, the second largest outlay/loss of revenue over the last 10 years. I think the wars are third. The tax cuts are, I think, number one.
I wonder what the next bubble will be. Hopefully my Nodak War will catch on.
Clearly the lesson of the Bush Presidency
Is that he didn’t cut taxes and regulations enough, or fight enough wars. At least that’s what you’d think by watching the primaries.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
by nja700 on Jan 12, 2012 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
GUNS GODS AND GLORY!
And stay off of my lawn!
It's Ayn Rand's world
We just live in it.
Another idea: all ideologies are to be referenced only as “smurfology”. It is much harder to advocate for things that do not work in the name of smurfology than it is in the name of (insert your own least favorite ideology here).
Surely there is some research out there that could help guide things like, for instance, the most effective top marginal tax rate in terms of, oh, I don’t know, job creation. Give it 10 years and see what happens. If it works, huzzah! If it doesn’t, then we’ll all just blame those f’ing smurfs.
Ayn Rand
aka – an oxymoron of a leader.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 12, 2012 2:19 PM CST up reply actions
I know I shouldn't do it....
….but I sometimes use Atlas Shrugged if I want to get a quick read on someone. Not ideologically (although you could probably extrapolate out to that with some degree of certainty), but rather….well, that book is a thousand page f**k you to altruism. It is filled with terrible monologues that are supposed to be riviting speeches and lots of rape. Its main thesis isnthat you should clap AND squeel while taking what you deserve. All of this is presented in a way that dares the reader to be “rational” enough to swallow the load of shit they are being shoveled page after page after rape filled page. That is where the douchiness occurs. It is clearly shit and the only way people can get or enjoy it is if they “rationally” accept the nonsense. In short the book is a magnet for people who beloeve they are too (whatever) for everyone else. I’m pretty sure this was also Rand’s strategy to get people to sleep with her. Yes, I am hideous and revolting, but if you are truly rational, you will see that my mind is worthy of your desire. See, just like the book!
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 12, 2012 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I was going to say...
Didn’t we have a little group-share about our Randian closet-skeletons here at some point?
Evanston, Illinois. ~November 1997 – ~February 1998. I was a college freshman douchebag.
Yeah....
….in college you just want to be yourself and that sometimes means rejecting a lot of what you were taught as a kid….like you have to work with other people.
Did you see the thing about the Atlas Shrugged DVD box?
If not, well, don’t be drinking anything, here.
ATLAS SHRUGGED DVD Recalled Because Of Ideological Error
.
… "AYN RAND’s timeless novel of courage and self-sacrifice comes to life…"
Yes, the word ‘self-sacrifice.’ Seriously. Here’s the explanation from the official site:
"It’s embarrassing for sure and of course, regardless of how or why it happened, we’re all feeling responsible right now." says Scott DeSapio, Atlas Productions’ COO and Communications Director "You can imagine how mortified we all were when we saw the DVD but, it was simply too late – the product was already on shelves all over the Country. It was certainly no surprise when the incredulous emails ensued. The irony is inescapable." DeSapio continued "Ultimately, the responsibility falls on us, Atlas Productions. We are putting policies in place now to ensure we avoid these types of unforced errors in the future." Harmon Kaslow, CEO of Atlas Productions and Producer of the film stated "As we all well know, the ideas brought to life in Atlas Shrugged are entirely antithetical to the idea of ‘self-sacrifice’ as a virtue. Atlas is quite literally a story about the dangers of self-sacrifice. The error was an unfortunate one and fans of Ayn Rand and Atlas have every right to be upset… and we have every intention of making it right."
The new covers will read:
"AYN RAND’s timeless novel of rational self-interest comes to life…"
"Opinion ...a confession."
by feral on Jan 12, 2012 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How much more perfect could it be?
None. None more perfect.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 6:05 PM CST up reply actions
If I ever start a Tap tribute band, it will be called
None More Black
Brilliant.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 8:24 PM CST up reply actions
Does that mean you'll quit posting
to deny us the brilliance of your work that we parasitically absorb?
by aarendsvark on Jan 13, 2012 7:11 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and there
are your total lack of copy editors. a good copy editor would have caught that before it got to that point.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 8:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
lol
Go Suns, Packers, Jays, and Huskers!
Read my thoughts on Creighton University athletics at Creightonian.com
I also edit things at Ridiculous Upside. Check it out.
I've always loved the Party Down exchange about Ayn Rand
“She wrote about how awesome awesome people are.”
you want to go to war with North Dakota?
okay i guess, that at least should be fairly quick, and wont require vast outlays of man power or materials. but what is your definition for victory, and what is the with drawl plan so we don’t get mired down again with no clear exit strategy?
as for teh economy, It’s like my dad said. executive pay and the bonus structures at financial institutions (as well as major corporations) were, still are, a classic “heads I win, tails you lose” situation. Either way those getting bonus’ win, and every one else gets no tangible benefit.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 2:45 PM CST up reply actions
As with Iraq,
I’m pretty sure anyone invading North Dakota will quickly run out of targets worth hitting.
We’d be sending in cruise missiles on the giant buffalo at Jamestown inside of a week.
"Opinion ...a confession."
I really want to go to war with aliens
That would really get the spending going. If only tthere were a way to make people believe….
of course,
unlike, the movies though, the technological differences would make it impossible for us to win.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 4:14 PM CST up reply actions
Doesn't ND have half of the nuclear warheads in this country?
That is one state I wouldn’t faff around with.
Weapons of Mass Destruction
we must invade to save the world from NoDak’s use and access to WMD’s!
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
They hate us because of our freedom.
Bringing honor to uncle rico's family since 2011.
2 wars
you think we’d learn…seems like we are trying to start another with Iran. Smooth.
by Blond Ricky on Jan 12, 2012 10:35 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Here's an idea:
First, we clear everyone out of North Dakota. Then we declare war on the land. We draft tens of thousands od people and immediately put them to work repairing the roads and bridges in the country that will be needed for the supply chain.
We then invest in lots of small businesses who have good ideas for things that could help us destroy North Dakota.
Farmers will be disrupted so we should probably thunk of ways to get money into rural America, especially in the hands of poor small farms so they can invest in American made equipment and keep the dollars as local as possible.
Since North Dakota has oil we should also probably drop a bunch of money onto universities and private companies who will develop alternative energy sources and/or efficiency measures.
Once we win, we will need to rebuild North Dakota. I sure hope all those new enlistees don’t mind being stationed in Minot when they have to rebuild the place.
We will defeat the North Dakota menace!
DESTROY NORTH DAKOTA!!!!
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 12, 2012 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
SNP-
This is a fantastic idea. After we finish with ND we can make a move on WI… We will pillage their football quarterback and some good beers.
If Minnesota can annex Wisconsin
so that I get to watch Minnesota sports on local TV but keep Wisconsin beers, I think we all win. That, of course, doesn’t count Packer/Badger/Brewer/Bucks fans as people. As it should be.
We will allow them to continue to practice their beliefs
We are not savages. Plus, Like most ethic enclaves, I’m sure Packertown will have excellent food.
I think you can get good Brawts
any where, but especially here in MN.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
The father partying experience
My thoughts on being a father (of three) and it’s effect on my drinking:
1. You can still drink beers. (Three to six)
2. You can still drink shots. (Three to six.)
3. But you must get up in the morning and take care of the family, even if it hurts.
4. To ease the pain, think about how great college was.
5. To ease the pain, think about how much you can drink when your kids go to college.
6. Then remember college again.
7. Hope your kids never turn 18.
8. Be grateful for points number one and two.
9. Learn to accept point number three.
Appendix
Btw the amounts described in points 1 and 2 are correlated.
The total should never eclipse the number six.
(If you are crazy, maybe you can stretch it to eight.)
Am I now to be described as a contraceptive?
Ndudi Ibi for Iman Shumpert
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 11, 2012 11:46 PM CST up reply actions
Nice Article
Jim Peterson suggested the other night that Wes needs to channel Bruce Bowen. I think that would be one of the few paths to success for Wes. He’s got the athletic tools to be a great defender, but I think he’s not ready to accept that he’s a role player yet.
I second the notion that Wes could certainly do with seeing more minutes alongside Rubio or at least Barea. Also, separating him from Darko can only help. Wes has the ability to go up and get lobs and I think his 3pt % would go up if Rubio was serving him wide open looks.
as long as he didn't pass up
that open 3 to step over the line a take a contested long 2,
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
How often have we heard this Bowen model? A few, for me.
It’s interesting. That’s not even remotely what people were drafting him for, of course. For some reason the comparison to Marion got made a lot, which never made sense to me. I pegged him as “Rodney Carney writ large,” which unfortunately looks like a bit of an exaggeration of Wes’s game right now. But as of draft night, Bruce Bowen wasn’t on anyone’s radar at all.
"Opinion ...a confession."
And it seems a little silly to me,
in that Bowen strikes me as an effort / intangibles guy, while the lack of those same things are holding Wes back. It’s like saying that I should model my game after Randy Breuer because there’s a superficial similarity (both Minnesotans in this case) and neither one of us has an outside shot. Never mind that he’s 7’3" and I’m 5’9".
It’s a strained analogy, but my point is that I hear people saying “he could be Bruce Bowen if he becomes nothing like what he is.”
by Madison Dan on Jan 12, 2012 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
You may have some fine shoulder hair, though, if we're making the Breuer comparison.
"Opinion ...a confession."
That was quite a pelt.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 3:19 PM CST up reply actions
Holy
crap we are spoiled with the contributions here. A sincere thanks, Tim. GREAT read.
So you're saying there's a chance!
If the coach asks more from him? In Games Wes Johnson plays at least 26 minutes, his career averages are 12.66 pts, 3.5 Rebs, 2.15 Asts, .8 Stls, .97 Blcks, 1.54 TOs in 32.37 min/game and he shoots 47.5% from the floor with 43.1% beyond the arc. He isn’t a veteran yet. He needs minutes to develop(he is a late bloomer) and it would be best if those minutes come with Rubio. Rubio is the catalyst that makes everyone better—Wes should get that chance before we decide he cannot play.
by Imyourhuckleberry on Jan 12, 2012 1:43 AM CST reply actions
Sounds like Kahn's whole misunderstanding
of Martell Webster’s numbers when he played 30+ minutes.
Its unlikely either guy plays better when they get more minutes – instead they got more minutes when they were playing well.
And that’s why neither guy got the big minutes often…
Perhaps its a matter of causality...
…Homeboy played 26+ minutes BECAUSE he was shooting 47% from the floor and banging 3s. Just a thought.
Cannot dispute that
I controlled for nothing in my numbers, but one of the major themes out here is that he is always terrible. I’m just saying that he isn’t always terrible and he has a chance to improve. Unlike Flynn or McCants, who nearly everyone knew was the wrong pick, there are some people that thought Wes Johnson was a reasonable pick given their options. I am not ready to write him off yet and I haven’t seen anyone else on the Wolves that can defend wing players 1 on 1. Memphis and Chicago both killed us in the 4th quarter with wing players. Yet Wes received no minutes and I think he can help there. I will finish with the fact that the Wolves have been almost 2 times as likely to win a game in which Wes plays 26+ minutes than if he does not.
by Imyourhuckleberry on Jan 12, 2012 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
First practice - new team
On a side note, I start playing again tonight.
Haven’t played in a year. Playing for a new team now.
Should probably expect a few elbows and bruises.
(I expect everybody to test the new guy.)
Can’t f’’’ing wait!
Thought I’d share the good news.
With all this Wes disappointment and stuff.
Great stuff Tim
Enjoyed reading about his high school & college history. Didn’t know much about that.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
Demeanor means everything...
“His demeanor and his background all suggest that he would be exactly the type of player that Johnson has turned into in the pros. "
Yep. That’s why I didn’t want the Wolves to draft him. “MEEK” is written all over his face – I could see it even before the draft. In the NBA, everyone has physical skills – the difference between the stars and the d-league washouts is mostly in their mental makeup. Wes has the mental makeup of a D-Leaguer and will probably never amount to anything in the NBA.
Wes, Beas & Darko all share this same issue – they lack the mental makeup to be a solid NBA player. I still hold out some hope that Beas will develop, but have to admit that the odds are objectively against it. I’d like to see a bit more of Martell Webster and ARandolph before lumping them into this category, but fear that’s where they belong as well. That’s why these guys were available so cheaply – they don’t have the mental makeup to match their physical skills.
Hope you're right, 1922...
I like Martell a lot, so I’m cheering for him. By the way, when I lumped Wes with Beas and Darko, I didn’t mean to suggest that Beas is meek. I don’t think that he is meek, but I do question whether he has the mental capacity to be a successful NBA player.
Martell's only problem that I've seen
is that he tries to do too much, though on last years team I think that can be forgiven due to a lack of other options.
Are you the "Brain Types" expert McHale brought in, back in the day?
You know – the one who took a look at Ricky Davis and saw his astounding similarity to Michael Jordan?
"Opinion ...a confession."
Glimmer of Hope
I’m as down on Wes’ performance as anyone.
However…
At one point in the 2nd half of last season, Wes was #1 in the NBA in 3-point accuracy from the left wing.
It was his “hot spot”.
So…
We have a point guard who is incredible at getting the ball to his teammates in high potential scoring positions.
If Wes were to play more than 13% of his minutes with this maestro, perhaps he would get more shot opportunities in the positions he is comfortable with.
It is regrettable that a #4 pick needs to be put in perfect situations to flourish.
However, as a manager, I try to put my employees in situations where they can succeed.
And, if I see that they are struggling, I make sure to limit their duties to that which they are good at, and have them develop the other areas in their downtime.
This is my hope for Wes Johnson.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
by HumdingerTV on Jan 12, 2012 11:30 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
This is a good point
Wes and Ellington are probably the only two players on the team who dont benefit much from Rubio. Ricky almost always plays with Luke or JJ. It would be interesting to start Ricky over Luke but keep Wes at the 2 just to see if they can get anything more out of him. Only 13% huh?Hmm…maybe I have been too hard on Wes lately
by Waucckhewww on Jan 12, 2012 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
By minutes
Wes plays almost exclusively with Luke. I think if we’re going to give Randolph the Grey and Williams time with Ricky because they have ‘chemistry’ and play better, then at some point it’d be nice to give Wes some burn with Ricky too. Of course, that would probably mean our starting lineup would like like this:
Ricky (21)
Wes (24)
AntRand (22)
Williams (20)
Love (23)
Wes, naturally, would be the oldest player of the bunch as well.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 12, 2012 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
That's a scary fast break team
Even with so much youth one would have to think the turnovers and inexperience would be preferable to:
Luke
Ellington
Wes
Love
Darko
Well...
when you put it that way, egads!
How about side by side?
Rubio - Luke— Ellington
Wes -
AntRand – Wes
Williams – Love
Love - Darko
Or, doing the math – the new lineup (averaging 123.2 combined MPG so far this year) produces .35 WS per game. The old lineup (averaging 125.5 combined MPG this year) produces .27 WS per game.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 12, 2012 4:03 PM CST up reply actions
We spent all last year hearing people say Wes needed Rubio to be effective.
It’s going to take me a while to digest the new “He’s one of the players who doesn’t benefit from Ricky” tack, here.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Wes is more effective
with Rubio – it’s just that he’s played 75% of his minutes with Luke. I calculated everything out using BasketballValue, and Wes’ +/- numbers are essentially neutral when he plays with Rubio, but like -60 or something when he plays with Luke.
by Dr. Wolfenstein on Jan 12, 2012 4:05 PM CST up reply actions
Huh, I'm looking at 82games data
(which were last updated on 1/7, which may be the difference), and here’s the breakdown for Wes:
With Rubio: 18 minutes, -14 point differential, -0.78 point differential per minute
Without Rubio: 120 minutes, -23 point differential, -0.19 point differential per minute
The sample with Rubio is really small, so I still agree that if they’re going to insist on playing him, they might as well play him with Rubio, bring him off the bench, or both. What they’ve been doing hasn’t been working.
Side topic
No TV for the next two games?? How is this possible now that FSN has an alternate channel? Has the team offered an explanation? I can MAYBE understand weak home games but these next two are on the road. Ridiculous. This is 2012.
Production costs outside secured advertising revenue
Lockout is partially to blame.
7 years of sucky basketball cover the rest.
Renewed interest in the team hasn’t completed reached the ad buyers.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
I get that to a degree
But the lockout resulted in alot more $$$ for the owners. I left a mesage with the team asking for the exact reasons and if it is possible to add TV games mid season, I’ll share any response I get.
Adding games is being discussed and consider by both sides.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
Remember, we got Rubio for FOYE and MILLER … There is still hope of getting something for Wes+Beasley
I would love to get Foye/Miller for Wes/Beasley right about now
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 12, 2012 10:00 PM CST up reply actions
but I will gladly take
Wes/Beasley and Rubio over Foye/Miller and Flynn.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 10:22 PM CST up reply actions
The initial trade was worth it no doubt
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I understand the idea people are bring up about Wes needing a more aggressive mentality
But it appears the dude can’t dribble much. That is a skill issue, not an attitude one.
He also shoots a pretty bad percentage (this year and last), irregardless of how sweet his shot looks. That could be a skill or a confidence issue – I dunno.
In general, I think NBA players need to be self-starters. If Wes cannot fire himself up to win games in the NBA, he is going to be trying to win games in Norway.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
Could someone find a pic of Wes
dunking the ball, or driving for a layup. Do those pics even exist?
"I don't think I've ever seen a group that is as good at turning the ball over as this one." Rick Adelman
I won't believe it until I see the rim.
He could just be handing the ball back to a very tall ref.
by Madison Dan on Jan 12, 2012 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hmmm
This seems legit
Jonny "Bag o' Chips" Flynn is gone, who's next?
Crystal Ball says Wes "The Ghost" Johnson
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 12, 2012 1:55 PM CST up reply actions
His facial expression suggests
he’s thinking, “It burns! It burns!”
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 6:07 PM CST up reply actions
K-Love looks shocked
as well he should be
by Waucckhewww on Jan 13, 2012 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
Looks like the
thunder players just gave up on that play.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 2:55 PM CST up reply actions
Then again
This could very well be a rebound.
This is disgusting guys...
I wish everyone would refrain from debating with valid basketball-centric points and get back to the core of what this website is meant to be about: penis jokes and gifs
Sociological considerations...
I think some details that could give more insight into true demeanor would be to know what kind of family he come from. Socio-economic level that he grew up in as an adolescent. From this article, I would bet he came from a very middle class, divorced family raised mainly in a suburban setting for his adolescent times.
I also think that Adelman is at such a level of a coach that also takes into consideration of this background and will try to cultivate whatever Johnson has left accordingly. if he can’t get anything more out of Wes, game over.
I'm from a middle class hungarian family
With a firm family background, raised in a suburban setting, my family spent a lot on my education and I’m generally a kind, helpful guy, but I will rip your heart out for a rebound in a pickup game. Too bad that before my knees were destroyed my vertical was like 0, after that it got worse. Oh and I’m as maneuverable as a freight train. But, I will rip your heart out.
I don’t think family background has anything to do with competitive fire, aggression or whatever. Wes should be given hormones. Or some kind of illegal substances that make him super aggressive on the court.
You know what's weird?
The most aggressive and dirty group of players I ever came across were seminarians. I dunno if they were coached to “play hard” or were inexperienced (or both), but I have never been shoved and hacked more in my life (outside of trying to court the ladies).
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
The only way to counter is to really shove back
That’s what the wolves are missing by the way. They have too many of these easy-going kind guys. Darko should channel his negative energies onto the court or something.
Btw I wouldn’t classify myself as a dirty player, I am extremely aggressive and have a “eff you” mentality on court. Wes has a “hi buddy” mentality. He smiles like a guy who doesn’t know that the opponent literally wants to take his lunch.
Simply put, his biggest problem is that he is not a competitive guy. You won’t see that in practice or workouts. I honestly believe that he is a good guy, he is eager to learn, seems like he is fairly intelligent, so everything’s fine. Basicly his only problem is that he is too nice and he cannot turn the aggressiveness on. Maybe he should listen to motivational music before games, or I don’t know.
as in Death Metal?
might be worth a try.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 8:53 PM CST up reply actions
Death metal?
I don’t want him any more disturbed. Arcturus maybe, but that is borderline crazy too. I certainly wouldn’t listen to death metal before doing anything that requires concentration.
I would advise listening to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YU5cAIC-lK4
Waitwaitwait.
I thought Tim Tebow invented that pose.
Wes worried in me in college
because he was a guy who played much better when he was at PF in Syracuse. I’m guessing putting him there forced him near the rim which let him use his athleticism a lot more on defense. His lack of true handles were also hidden since he was often guarded by college 4s. This is more worrying when you realize he’s been played exclusively as a 2 in the league. He quickly went from an athletic terror who could play 3 or 4, to a guy who is nothing more than a spot up shooter.
If his defense was really good (like it could be with his tools), I think he’d be fine. Unfortunately he doesn’t really make his presence felt like he could. I think he was especially hurt by being with Rambis and on a young team. Hard to have much confidence in him now though.
The funny thing is
We really don’t need him to dribble around the court:
- move a lot without the ball, cut hard
- when open, shoot the damn ball
- stay in front of his man and contest shots.
If he could do that, and I see no real reason that he couldn’t we’d be fine for now. From that foundation, we could slowly build him up. He should consistently do these things on every damn play for 10 minutes a game for 30 games. If we have that pinned down, we can maybe run 1 or 2 plays for him. If not, work on him until he has it pinned down.
I think a guy like Wes needs to get established in the NBA, he seems overwhelmed. Had he got the Adelman rookie treatment, I honestly believe he’d be a productive player right now.
What he should work on right now
Is his concentration: I see him losing his defender from sight at least twice a game. That leads to the next point.
He needs to get better at avoiding/fighting through screens. He regularly gets all caught and that’s why he is not a good defender. When he actually gets there to contest shots, I think he is pretty good. Maybe that’s why he was good against Kobe, Kobe doesn’t rely all that much at screens.
What usually happens is that he loses concentration for a quarter of a sec, his man gets away, then the screen gets into a good position, he has to rush so he can’t maneuver as well as he could had he been on time moving after his man. Even if he can, he cannot avoid screen, he always has to fight through them since he is late and has to rush and so he is not as aware of the surrounding events on the court. He also gives time for the screen to settle perfectly, which makes it harder to get through.
I’ll have to test my theory, but Rip Hamilton and Kevin Martin are the two guys that I’m pretty sure would kill him. He simply wouldn’t get there to contest their shots.
rely on good lord, my english teacher would spank me for that
spanking is the way english teachers discipline grown men in hungary
In America
we have to pay extra for that.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
I know that for a fact.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 12, 2012 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
(I'm a male English teacher.)
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
by Cynical Jason on Jan 13, 2012 6:52 AM CST up reply actions
Wes Johnson needs mentoring not the jackals trying to constantly hamstring him! Some so called fans need to get a life !
You forgot to mention Love sucks...
Bringing honor to uncle rico's family since 2011.
hmmm the "duck of death" is telling me to get a life.
Maybe I should get back to work.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Jan 13, 2012 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
Great article Tim.
I really want Wes to succeed. Like, really want him to succeed. It seems at this point that its a mental thing, which I really hope he can turn around.
He also comes across as a good guy whenever he’s interviewed, which I know doesn’t help his basketball, but that automatically makes me want him to do well.
If we could just have the Wes who shut down Kobe last year, and who opened his NBA career with this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DijFmKgqzpc
Live And Stupid From England
Greg Monroe
I think a lot of the Wes debate was broken down to “do you believe Cousins can ever be mature enough to function in a winning NBA environment” and the people who were for Wes were seemingly for him as it appeared like he and Cousins were the two BPA at the pick.
I was a staunch (and still am) supporter of not KEEPING Cousins. Whether that meant you draft and trade him, or pass on him all together, I did not want Cousins as a Wolf.
That didn’t nessecarily mean I was in favor of Wes, kinda like Flynn when we got him I wasn’t overly enthused but I was curious and cautiously optimistic.
I was hugely in favor of getting Paul George. I thought at the time he had the potential to be the best player in the draft and believe that is still the case.
But knowing that we would be in position to draft Derrick Williams the guy I always wonder if we should have taken was Greg Monroe.
I think the reason he wouldn’t work are basically that he is kind of a bigger Love, not a supreme athlete but a solid one who is really just a good overall player.
But gosh, could you imagine that frontline of Love/Monroe. We would be shredding people nightly offensively and I think early in their run they would be a little rocky defensively….but they are both smart enough to make it work I believe.
Another blown chance.
Kahn is bad haha.
Just so many things he’s done wrong. It’s funny to think about almost that Kahn on all the picks he’s blown, didn’t even have to draft the BPA and he still would have had an insane team.
Most people say he should have taken Cousins and Curry but he could have gone Derozan/Monroe and still would have created a monster of a team around Love/Rubio
it’s all so depressing.
However, I do believe Williams has a chance to be the best player out of all the Kahn misses….so maybe, just maybe it will all be worth it….
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
"However, I do believe Williams has a chance to be the best player out of all the Kahn misses"
So he has to just be better than Flynn and Wes? That’s a pretty low bar.
Oh no, my bad
Curry, Cousins, George, Monroe etc.
I’m not guaranteeing it. But I’m a big Williams guy, I think he’s gotta lotta upside if he can refine some aspects of his game….which he seems capable of doing
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
The thing that I like about Williams
is that he is a hard worker. He seems to be willing to put in the effort to get better, which some guys who may be more talented arn’t. Williams gets that he needs to get better, and that is the one thing that gives me hope that he can transition to the NBA level.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 10:27 PM CST up reply actions
I said before the draft
I felt like Williams had a chance to be the Aaron Rodgers of the NBA
now Aaron Rodgers has since gone on to have an incredible season which I would be surprised if Williams would put up the NBA equivalent of that but
I still think the two players have a lot in common how they were both very overlooked coming out of high school and had to work their butt off to even get peoples attention. And while they both made it in their respective professions (the drafts are set up differently, I realize Rodgers fell a little in his draft, but in the NFL 1st round picks are all basically equal to top 6 picks in the NBA) but they had a ton of doubters because of certain aspects of their game.
Williams appears to both be a hard worker and have a chip on his shoulder. I know it’s impossible to project that out in any rationale way, but it seems like when you mix that with talent you almost always get a superstar in any sport.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Great article!
I’m curious to see if Malcolm Lee take Wes’ minutes at the 2 He has been mentioned in a few posts recently; can it be any worse? If he is able to get into the paint and draw fouls more often, this could be a short term solution.
Living it up in Beijing.
Trade idea (Derozan again, sorry if you are board)
With Al Horford out for the year the Hawks have reportedly been considering ways to beef up their frontline.
I have talked on Raptors HQ to try and get a pulse on what they think about Demar Derozan, it appears to be all over the board. The consensus was that they probably would trade him for the right deal, but they wouldn’t just take salary relief trades I’ve suggest.
NBA trade machine is still down so I am going to try and match salaries to make this work without it.
Toronto gets: Marvin Williams, Luke Ridnour Wes Johnson
Minnesota gets: Demar Derozan, Amir Johnson, Zaza Pachulia
Atlanta gets: Michael Beasley , Anthony Randolph , Darko Milicic , Linas Klezia
I think both Toronto and Min do this. Toronto gets a quality SF and moves Amir Johnson’s iffy contract which is actually not looking all that bad considering his production so far this year (with Ed Davis/Valanciunas/Bargiana it is still up for debate whether Amir is part of their long term plans) and they also move Linas Klezia’s deal which isn’t terribly expensive but it is terribly long.
Min gets a good SG and a guy in Amir Johnson who, while he’ s not a true center could play that kinda flex spot where you have him on the floor with Love/Williams and he is essentially the shotblocking 4 to Love’s more stationary post presence at 5.
Atl is a question mark for sure, but it’s kind of a win-win situation where they get frontcourt depth for the remainder of the season and they owe Marvin Williams 18 million for two years after the season is done, so if Beasley/Randolph don’t work out they are still out from that contract.
I’ve brought up Derozan before. I think he’s gettable. I would say we don’t have the “Asset” to get him (outside of Williams, which I wouldn’t do) but I think we have the resources to find that asset through trade and ATL is the perfect target as they will be looking to get frontcourt depth and maybe some roster flexibility with all their contracts. Plus they have a young/expendable 3 to trade to TOR, which TOR very much is interested in acquiring a 3
by getting Ridnour, I’m also not creating a huge 2 guard hole as Bayless and Barbosa would both take over 2 guard duties with Ridnour moving to back up Calderon. And who wouldn’t want Wes as a deep bench option at 2? :-p
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Like who?
Derozan is solid and (I believe) he is acquirable for what we can offer
I’m not supremely high on trading Williams unless it’s for a sub 25 fringe all-star…which basically means Eric Gordon or James Harden….
Also Amir Johnson would not look bad alongside Love.
If you have a better name that we can get without trading Williams I am all ears.
Gerald Henderson for Beasley/Randolph or both is a trade I think would help and also likely as CHA is supremely offensively challenged.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I dunno, but Redick and Kevin Martin (in the case of a Houston salary dump) come to mind.
My point is that DeRozan (and Henderson, too) just isn’t worth trading for. I like Randolph better than each of those guys.
I may agree with Randolph>DD/GH
But those two both play wing about as effectively (er….consistently) as Randolph plays post…and we don’t need a post as much as we need a 2
Kevin Martin in a salary dump is probably the guy to get. Let’s hope it happens.
Derozan’s gotta lotta ability and he’s super young….I think he’s just gonna be one of those guys that continues to get better. Real raw when he came into the league, he’s only 21 now and has a lot of room for growth.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
SnP makes a point to mention consistently
that if we got a solid wing we might be a playoff hunter.
DD is a solid wing. He’s a little up and down, but he does about everything we’ve been clamoring for out of a 2, ball handling, driving, free throws and he doesn’t seem to be a chucker or ball dominant player
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
of course, for me,
Harden is the ultimate catch. would absolutely love him at the 2. any trade scenarios you can come up with that pries him away from OKC? I would be willing to include DWill, but not Love/Rubio. DWill plus what gets OKC to give us Harden do you think?
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 12, 2012 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
Maybe Ridnour and a pick
which I would still do
Williams Ridnour and the Utah and Memphis picks
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Do we have a 2nd pick from Memphis?
Because we got the one from the Jefferson trade last year. We just kept trading it down until it turned into Lee.
yes we do actually 2013
and it actually has some value cause A) Memphis will logically still be a playoff team and B) i don’t believe it has a 2nd round expiration
we actually got it from Houston in the Flynn trade I believe
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Found it. Top 14 protected through 2016, then it becomes a 2nd.
2013 first round draft pick from Memphis
Memphis’ own 2013 1st round pick to Minnesota via Houston (top 14 protected in the 2013 Draft, top 14 protected in 2014, top 14 protected in 2015, and top 14 protection in 2016 Draft). If Minnesota via Houston has not yet received this first round pick by the 2016 draft, then so long as Memphis’ own 2016 2nd round pick is among the top 55 picks then Minnesota via Houston shall instead receive (1) Memphis’ own 2016 2nd round pick and (2) cash. If, however, Minnesota via Houston has not yet received this first round pick by the 2016 draft, but Memphis’ own 2016 2nd round pick is not among the top 55 picks then Minnesota via Houston shall instead receive (1) Toronto’s own 2016 second round pick via Memphis and (2) cash. [Houston – Memphis, 2/24/2011 and then Houston – Minnesota, 6/24/2011]
I've heard rumblings that ATL might try to unload J Smith
and his $12 mil+/year contract. It sounds like they would want an expiring contract. They might want a big so that once Horford comes back he could play PF. Could something like Darko & Beasley get that deal done?
I doubt they trade the horse that they still have now that Hortford's down.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
"Could something like Darko & Beasley get that deal done?"
No. They’ll want something of value for Smith.
Who gets to be the third string PF in this scenerio
Love, Smith, or Williams?
See my trade sceanrio above
we need to leverage the Hawks with our abundance of 4’s and 5’s
even if they aren’t the most quality they are still bodies.
Hawks don’t have anything we really need but they have an expendable big contract in Marvin Williams. Ship him to Toronto who needs a 3 and have them ship us Derzoan
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Per the rumor mill the Hawks want to move an injuried Hinrick for a back up big.
I don’t think we are interested. The angle is that they trade an expiring contract on a useful player to get under the tax and get a back up big.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Darko?
amnesty Pek, out of our bad contracts
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I understand that you enjoy it, but I'm done playing the who could I target to improve the team if I ran the show game.
I’ll still give you an insight about what the rumor mill is saying, but there has been a change of the guard.
I’m a fan, but thought good lord I might be nearly as good if not better at talent evaluation than Kahn and Rambis appeared to be. I played the game because it helped me stay more or less sane.
With Adelman in place I have no doubt that the FO knows far more about talent evaluation than I do. I’m prepared to sit back and actually trust that a professional or two is in a place of power and will be making good decisions. I don’t need to dream about Harden, Monta or Iggy. The honeymoon won’t last forever, but I trust the new additions to the Wolves FO aren’t blind. JJ appears to be a good pick up. The wing play is terrible. They know it. They’ll do what they can, but I don’t expect much to happen league wide 10 games in. I’m also not certain how we pull anything off when we have trouble getting 10 healthy bodies on the roster.
The honeymoon for the Adelman era shouldn’t even begin to wear off until the trade deadline and next year’s free agency have ended. If KLove isn’t extended or matched as a RFA that’s another story, but the sky isn’t falling yet. Minute allocation makes more sense regardless of who’s starting. Chuck Hayes, JJ Barea, Crawford were the free agent targets this off-season. Players who actually contribute and have proven defined skills. The sort of players that can still be added to a team that only has the mid-level. This is promising.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
seems very reasonable Airete
I just think it’s fun to do and talk about.
I’m pretty sure you, me, SnP and probably 40 other posters could have ran the Wolves better the past 3 years merely by drafting and doing nothing else.
I’m sure RA knows what he’s doing, but he still hasn’t done anything. Whatever that means is up for debate…but I’m still waiting to see what actually happens before I make any big opinions on the administration.
He’s a great coach and his coaching is evident even with the talent we have, but that is no guarantee he and his son whatever will be great FO people.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
We haven't seen much, but since he's come on.
We targeted JJ Barea, Chuck Hayes and Crawford. Given Rubio more minutes than any other rookie. Run Kevin Love with Monta Ellis minutes and limited Johnson and Darko. I’m willing to give him some serious leash.
I didn’t turn on Kahn until the trade deadline passed and the singular move was AR. That was his last window for me. Jefferson traded to create space for a bench-warming back up big at our biggest position of strength doesn’t cut giving up one of our two best players in Jefferson.
Adelman hasn’t missed any windows yet. He hasn’t had any other than FA with no substantial cap space. We picked up JJ. So far so good.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Yep
I forget the JJ thing as his call. good stuff.
Now, has team Adleman actually Gm’d a team before? That is my only hesitation…which I’ll still give them their “windows” but I am a little hesitant to declare them the answer
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
I have no idea who'd calling the shots, but based on the rumor mill assume RJ and Rick have the player personnel duties.
If Kahn isn’t taking orders on this issue I’m way off base.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
no I think u are correct
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
The title to this post
Reminds me of the movie ‘A History of Violence.’
by TO12 on Jan 12, 2012 11:27 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions
Beautiful Jumper
The Three Ball Arcs gracefully
Brick! Wesley Johnson
by zebano on Jan 13, 2012 8:44 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
Beasley for Stucky
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
is he better than what we have?
and are we keeping Beasley?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
stucky's contract is realtively
short and inexpensive 3/25
if he ends up not being worth it the contract will be up before any of our supposed big payday guys (Williams, Rubio and maybe Randolph) will need to get extended
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
3/25...
is a hell of a lot for a player who can’t shoot and has had one above average year in his career.
by vjl110 on Jan 13, 2012 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Is he an upgrade?
he A) Can handle the rock and B) Can get to the free throw line
for Michael Beasley….
Who are we signing with that money is probably an even better question?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
Beasley is expiring.
We would be Stuck with Stuckey for 2 more years. If he isn’t part of the answer he’d be a problem.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I'm not an AS guy
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/stuckro01.html
but he’s actually had three season of average to above average PER and has been playing out of position as a point. last year had a WS/48 of .111 which is, I’m under the impression, good.
he would be an upgrade and give us the proverbial “starting quality 2 guard”
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:27 AM CST up reply actions
I don't have much love for PER...
0.1 WS is average, so that was the basis of my statement.
He is an upgrade over Beasley on the court. However, he is definitely overpaid. Stuckey is a negative asset with that 3 year deal. I would rather have Bogans at the same price, and we can get him for 10%.
Trying to keep up with AS
Is like trying to listen to indie music
the second you kind of come around to something the cool kids think that band is now too mainstream and have found something else cool
PPG/Kanye/RPG/Fleetwod Mac/FG%/Beatles
the classics never die :-p
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
I know what you mean...
and they are all flawed.
PER is certainly better than nothing, but it has been pretty “unhip” since it came out.
If you really want to get annoyed with advanced stats, try bringing up +/- and adj +/-. There are very smart and informed people on every end of the spectrum when it comes to their utility.
PER to me
seems like a pretty good “general” tool to determine a players value.
as is WS/48
I like the stats that have definable “this is what an average player looks like” and we can go from there.
PER does tend to favor players that can “create their own shot” over the Tollivers of the world, but for the most part I think it gets it “generally” right
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
...
PER does tend to favor players that can "create their own shot" over the Tollivers of the world, but for the most part I think it gets it "generally" right
This is my take as well. If you think high usage is really important PER is the preferred whereas ws or wp are better for usage-haters. Any of them give you a nice quick perspective on a player even if they disagree, sometimes strongly.
My personal approach is to start from WS and WP/48 and then look at things like usage, role, man defense, and skill-set separately.
I've come to think that
WS/48 or WP/48 is more highly correlated with my perception of player performance than PER is. For the best players, it doesn’t seem to matter, in that all of the measures will say they’re good.
by Madison Dan on Jan 13, 2012 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
I think Ian Curtis gets to be PER
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 13, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
haha
Vampire Weekend is eFG%
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
Woah there
Let’s not get carried away ;)
How about Wire gets the eFG%? We haven’t even worked our way through New Order, Talking Heads, Television, or Gang of Four. These are the classics.
Band of Horses feels like TOV%
But this is all IMO…..don’t want anyone to get tooooo pissed off here :)
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
I guess what I'd like to see is....
Pekovic and Johnson traded for an expiring and a pick or an acceptable reasonably priced wing player.
That would leave commitments for next year at
Darko, JJ, Ridnour, Rubio, Lee, Ellington, Williams and hopefully Love.
Webster and Miller would be on partially guaranteed deals and AR and Beasley would be RFA.
We could cut bait with Miller, Beasley, Webster and possibly AR. We’d have over $13,000,000 to fill out the roster assuming we offer Love the Max. We’d still have the option of amnestying Darko if we needed to come up with another $5.2 million. And I’d like to think Williams and cap-space could help round out the roster for a legit starting wing player via trade.
Love, Rubio, JJ, Ridnour, Lee, Williams, Ellington for the year, and $18 million worth of Adelman’s guys works for me.
Webster, AR, Beasley could in theory be part of the equation, but cutting bait with the $9 million owed to Pekovic and Johnson would be my primary pruning.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
So sensible
but I agree
Pek and Johnson should be traded for a multitude of reasons, but I like your cutting 9 million idea.
we should hit the Hawks up
Pek, Johnson, Beasley for Heinrich.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
We need the bodies for now.
And no way the Hawks take on salary for Hinrick. They are in tax territory they’d want to lose salary in any deal. Pek and Johnson possibly. All three would cost them serious money.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Even Pek and Johnson would be too much salary for them
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
hinrich is 8 though?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 13, 2012 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
The deal wouldn't save them money this year and would tie them up for next year.
I don’t see why they’d do it. Pekovic and Ellington, although unlikely, would at least save them cash.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Talent Evaluation: Tough Business
Kahn gets lots of heat for the whiffs but it is tough transposing talent into the NBA sphere for sure. It makes or breaks franchises. San Antonio anyone? It is scary to read that Counsins and Favors were not good enough (and in related news that Ty Lawson was trade bait). Yikes. But Minn. has had so many swings it was bound to eventually get something right, if only by accident.
Here’s a scary lineup: Rubio, Barea, Randolph, Love and Williams all in synch, w/ a 2nd unit of Luke, Beasley and whoever else. It would have been odd to imagine but it just might work. The unknown is Randolph who is just crazy-talented and maybe just crazy too. I’d love for him to get in synch with Rubio and coach. Is that possible? Randolph could fill the stat sheet every day but why doesn’t he get his chance? Give him 30 minutes a night for a month, with no punishment-benchings and my money says he is the missing link and goes huge.
Excellent piece TA.
No mistakes in the tango, Donna. Not like life. Simple. That's what makes the tango so great. If you make a mistake, and get all tangled up, you just tango on.....

by 



























