Name that forward
by vjl110 on Jan 13, 2012 11:36 AM CST
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This list includes 9 of the best NBA forwards ordered by points per 40 minutes. In addition to scoring totals, I have also included scoring efficiency (TS%), the percentage of team possessions that player uses when on the court (USG), and the percentage of their shot attempts that are assisted. See if you can match names to numbers before jumping below the fold: (Aldridge, Anthony, Bosh, Durant, Griffin, James, Love, Nowitzki, Stoudemire)
| Name | Pnts | TS% | USG | %Ast |
| ? | 30.9 | 62.6 | 32.22 | 37.7 |
| ? | 29.7 | 54.9 | 34.78 | 37.7 |
| ? | 28.3 | 59.4 | 32.12 | 48.1 |
| ? | 24.9 | 55.2 | 29.86 | 72.4 |
| ? | 24.1 | 53.5 | 27.04 | 72.5 |
| ? | 24.1 | 55.9 | 27.04 | 45.2 |
| ? | 23.6 | 55.7 | 27.01 | 73 |
| ? | 23 | 51.6 | 28.04 | 61 |
| ? | 21.3 | 56.2 | 24.49 | 75 |
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Let's remove the curtain.
| Name | Pnts | TS% | USG | %Ast |
| James | 30.9 | 62.6 | 32.22 | 37.7 |
| Anthony | 29.7 | 54.9 | 34.78 | 37.7 |
| Durant | 28.3 | 59.4 | 32.12 | 48.1 |
| Griffin | 24.9 | 55.2 | 29.86 | 72.4 |
| Aldridge | 24.1 | 53.5 | 27.04 | 72.5 |
| Love | 24.1 | 55.9 | 27.04 | 45.2 |
| Nowitzki | 23.6 | 55.7 | 27.01 | 73 |
| Stoudemire | 23 | 51.6 | 28.04 | 61 |
| Bosh | 21.3 | 56.2 | 24.49 | 75 |
Now take another look at these numbers. In particular pay attention to where Kevin Love ranks in terms of USG and %Ast. Pretty much every attempt to peg Love as "below superstar quality" or "undeserving of a max contract" focuses on his inability to "create shots" or "put the team on his back".
These claims seem pretty silly when you look at his numbers up against forwards who almost never receive that brand of criticism. Sure his usage is towards the bottom of this list, but he is still tied with Aldridge and above Dirk and Bosh. I think the most telling statistic here is how little Love relies on assists to get his points. Each of the other "big" forwards rely considerably more on being setup by someone else to score points. Love actually fits in much better with guys like LeBron, Carmelo, and Durant in terms of creating offensive opportunities on his own.
Keep this comparison in mind the next time someone tells you Kevin Love isn't a "Banana Sandwich."
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Nice Post
I’m prepareing for an onslaught of comments about how an offensive rebound and a put back is less valuable than an isolated fadeaway mid range jumper.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
by Ebomb on Jan 13, 2012 11:49 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
I love those comments
Because you never see clutch baskets come from offensive boards. Oh, wait… it happens all the time.
Sign the man, already!
Although I’m getting a touch nervous. I would have expected to hear a little more about it this month. And the “Love is lukewarm to the idea of signing with Minnesota” speculation is starting to make its way into more reputable circles than Vecsey or BleacherReport. (It was in Sports Illustrated this week.)
I expect he’ll sign. However, if the ball’s not entirely in the team’s court, well, I hope they don’t mess it up.
it will be announced at 6 pm some Friday Night via a @kevinlove
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by beatsandpeasnyc on Jan 13, 2012 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
One thing I heard
Is that if there is a holdup, it is likely about the years. The Wolves probably want to sign him to a full 5, while Love would probably prefer an early opt out (a la James and Wade) after year 3 or 4.
I doubt there is much debate left about whether Love is a max or not, and I don’t think Love will walk away from his first max contract. Flexibility makes the most sense to me.
I am so glad we didn't sign David Lee last year now.
by Doug West Domination!!! on Jan 13, 2012 11:59 AM CST reply actions
Yeah - WTF was that about?
Sign an older, worse version of Love to put next to … Love?
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
by Wile E Coyote on Jan 13, 2012 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
And lock up some much needed cap room for a while too
I would’ve liked the Rudy Gay signing but we couldn’t get him on the plane.
by Doug West Domination!!! on Jan 13, 2012 1:08 PM CST up reply actions
Kahn's perfect world scenario was...
Sign David Lee to a huge contract
Trade Kevin Love for JaVale McGee
The Wiz wouldn’t agree to the deal, so Kahn was stuck with Love…
Never forget
The artist formally known as Shane Heal, but FORMERLY known as Blakeley
Well, son, your mother and I were waiting until we thought you were old enough to understand it.
If you need to talk about it, we’re here for you.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
by nja700 on Jan 13, 2012 4:33 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Per Synergy
Love in iso:
9-19 with 3-7 from beyond the arc. 1.05 ppp.
Bosh: 8-17 with 1 ppp.
Melo: 25-81 with .71 pp (Congrats Knicks fans, you’re stuck with that poser for a looonnnnnnnggg time)
Durantula: 27-61, .94 ppp
LMA: 1-11, .18 (He’s good off the pnr and in the post)
A’mare: 9-38, .57 ppp (Slow clap for Knicks fans. Also, throw in a Simpsons “ha-ha” for good effect).
Dirk: 10-19, 1.04 ppp
LBJ: 22-53, .89
Blake: 7-17, .69
First thing, there just aren’t that many guys who clear things out and go iso anymore. The ones who do are either posers (Melo and Amare) or guys who can get near or above .9 ppp (Durant and LBJ), which is rare as hell at a high clip. Why? Because the player is clearing out and going at it by himself.
This is the thing that really amazes me about the closer/banana sandwich talk: it’s just not a good way to score points. Even the very best players on the planet can’t do it on a really efficient basis. It’s super hard to get to a point per play, for crissakes.
Meanwhile, Mr. Stepbackthree/running hook has a small sample but he’s doing pretty a-ok when called upon to score points in iso situations. Throw in the fact that he generates large chunks of offense on his own, and I really think the closer bit is an example of people wanting to see a specific type of play more than they want to see actual results.
Disclaimer: some of these guys score in the post or off the pnr and that’s where their banana sandwichness comes from.
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 13, 2012 12:17 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
There's one spot where Love seems to come up short
(at least by my eye and Hoopdata numbers), and that’s with his FG% at the rim. He’s at 54% versus 65% for all PFs averaging 20 or more mpg. It was the same story last year. He’s probably drawing a ton of fouls down there as well (not sure how to find this out), so it may not be as bad as it looks, but it does seem to be a place where his size is a problem.
Of course, he’s still a great player, we should pay him the max, blah blah blah, but I think this might be what some people see and use to decide that Love isn’t a “max player”.
by Madison Dan on Jan 13, 2012 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
I'm not sure how much is his height
As great as his outside shot is, his touch around the basket isn’t phenomenal.
Part of it is maybe that he sometimes tosses up shots around the basket knowing that he’ll either draw the foul or just get the rebound back if he misses.
Beasley and Williams both seem to have a softer touch around the rim, but I’m not sure if the stats back me up there.
Fortunately, Love is a knockdown outside shooter.
I agree with your point about knowing (or hoping) he'll draw a foul.
It seems like there are a fair number of shots down there that he couldn’t really think he’d get off, but have a high foul rate.
He's just not that good in the post
10-32. It’s the one place his 3 point shooting can’t bail out his so-so close-to-the-basket shooting. He’s great at putting back offensive rebounds (18-32…good for 2nd in the league with 1.12 ppp) and 3s. Once he can’t work in those 2 big strengths, his superman strengths come back to earth a bit.
It gets back to your "ugly points versus pretty points" issue.
The ugly ones count, too. Love’s skills aren’t pretty, but they’re valuable.
Which is why he needs to be paired with D12
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
D12 needs to be paired with D12
(just a little joke about his trade-me, trade-me-not wavering)
But really
I can’t think of two more complementing big men than Love and D12.
Howard and Gasol
Would look pretty good.
Or Howard and Ibaka. So many blocked shots, and Ibaka likes to shoot that elbow jumper.
Howard and anyone would go pretty well together.
Love/Howard would be unreal.
Ibaka does block shots, but he’s not a floor spacer or real offensive threat.
Gasol is flat out good, but getting older.
Love would allow Howard to go into shot blocking mode without sacrificing rebounds while still stretching the floor Ryan Anderson style and drawing his own absurd amount of fouls to get into the bonus faster. It’d be unreal. Teams would almost have to concede defensive rebounds to save fouls for their bigs.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
OK
Love/Howard would be awesome, but I think it’s mainly because both those players are awesome. Howard’s already pretty damn good at both shotblocking and rebounding without Love playing next to him.
Ibaka is a good catch-and-shoot player inside the arc. I was mainly thinking about how hellacious those two would be on defense. Love/Howard would obviously be better, but that’s mostly because Love is a better player than Ibaka, not because Ibaka and Howard don’t complement each other.
I dunno. I get what you’re saying with their styles of play meshing well and I agree. I just think that there are very few PFs in the league that Howard wouldn’t play well with. Great defensive centers that dunk a lot complement lots of players.
Spot on.
“there are very few PFs in the league that Howard wouldn’t play well with.”
I just think Love/Howard could likely be darn near the top of any combo. It’s the attrition factor of having two bigs so dominant at rebounding that they have to be fouled in order to be contained. Other teams would be stuck having to concede possessions and likely fouls every game regardless of how they game plan.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
which means a lot of victories for just showing up.
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.
If that doesn't work, cheat.
by TheEvilProfessor on Jan 13, 2012 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
A Love and Howard combo would be unreal.
Opposing teams would average roughly 3 offensive rebounds per week.
Toddler Riley Scientist
And then we could discuss/disparage Howard's freethrow shooting.
Just like Roseanne Rosannadanna always said, It just goes to show you, if it’s not one thing it’s another
"pokin' the animals at the Canis Hoopus zoo"
by pastyearsears on Jan 13, 2012 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
Except the trouble with the ugly points is that
NBA referees seem to swallow their whistles a bit during crunch time in close games. When you’re bread and butter is ugly points and drawing fouls, you’re going to run into some trouble at the end of close games – something we’ve seen a number of times with Kevin Love over the past few years.
Toddler Riley Scientist
except when you are a superstar
and get star calls. and people are already saying that love gets star calls, so that shouldn’t
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 13, 2012 11:05 PM CST up reply actions
be a problem
sorry, my computer got stuck in link pointer mode, and couldn’t type any thing until I posted.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 13, 2012 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
A plausible-sounding argument whose actual truth we'd want to check on.
We know for a dang fact, though, that teams getting crucial offensive boards down the stretch is a big, big deal.
"Opinion ...a confession."
Great post but...
What the hell is a Banana sandwich?
by WolvesBigTicket on Jan 13, 2012 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
I don't really like this definition
You could definitely make a banana sandwich. Just slice up some bananas and put them between two pieces of bread. Put some peanut butter in there, boom, delicious snack and one of Elvis’s favorite foods.
by princelyfrank on Jan 13, 2012 5:06 PM CST up reply actions
It is truely amazing how great a player Love is
when you consider that the only players on that list who’s points off assists are in the same range or better then love, Durant, Carmelo and LBJ all have at least 50 Iso plays.while every one else on that list (except A’mare) have fewer then 20. whats more, when Love does Iso, he scores at a higher clip than any of them, including those who are considered to be the best in the world at Iso (LBJ, Durant, Carmelo). Love is the very definition of a player that deserves MAX money.
Will the Real Thor Please Stand Up ... ?
by the Real Thor on Jan 13, 2012 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
i would argue that vjl110
is the kevin love of canis hoopus.
solid stuff again.
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on Jan 13, 2012 2:05 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Maybe Beats
Although have you read Andy Thayer? He writes on this site through his spokesman The Big Deetz. It’s kind of a Andy kauffman Tony Clifton thing except both guys are Tony Clifton. It’s cool though, at the end of every article Andy Thayer writes he signs the bottom Andy Thayer, so you know you are getting a genuine Thayer.
Chazz Reinhold: Mom?? MOM!! What is she doing back there? I never know what she's doing.
by Son of Gerald Green on Jan 14, 2012 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
Rec'd for banana sandwich.
"Of what use is a philosopher who does not hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes of Sinope
(I would have had no notion at all that Aldridge's baskets were assisted so often.)
Griffin, okay, we know that. Dirk’s number being that high is a mild surprise, too.
"Opinion ...a confession."
LMA gets a lot of transition buckets as the trailing big. He runs the floor well and his teammates reward him for it.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Unassisted Love
The offensive rebounds are great, but…
I wonder how many times per game Love botches an assist with an inside miss, but gets his own rebound for the “unassisted” score. .5/game? .75/game? I’m sure it’s not wholly insignificant.
Still definitely a max player. Would’ve been great to pair him up with the Manther.
Don Godofredo Montego de Montevideo
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