Rubio better than Love?
After Saturday's game, Love's WP48 is lower than Rubio's for the first time.
I don't think this will last. Love's rating is well below his historical level, but it is still note-worthy.
4 months ago
vjl110
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Yes, significantly better
Well, no, let me rephrase that. Significantly more valuable. And I love Kevin Love. That’s why I really, really want this to be a non-five year contract. Lose Ricky, we’re back to square one. Lose Love, it will hurt a lot, but there’s still hope.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
However
You give Love exactly what he wants as long as it’s guarantee 3 years or more. If he demands five years, you have to trust you can re-sign Rubio.
And in support of my comment above, I think we can get a FA if Love leaves. That’s due to Rubio.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
by twinstalker on Jan 23, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
I think the whole argument of...
give Love 4 so we can sign Rubio is a bit unnecessary…. Can’t we just sign Rubio to 4 if and when the time comes?
by vjl110 on Jan 23, 2012 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
And so can other teams
If he accepts the qualifying offer
You can't...dust...for vomit.
Who does this?
Nick Young isn’t missing out on the money Rubio and or Love would be.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
How does the new CBA help small market teams...
…if they can only sign ONE 5-year max? After that one player, everyone is on an even level (given salary cap constraints)??
If you sign Love to an extension for 4 years
you will be able to keep Ricky on the rookie scale contract for the same 4 years.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Jan 24, 2012 7:07 AM CST up reply actions
This doesn't surprise me that much
Rubio fills up the stat line and is really quite good on defense. In a hypothetical situation where we lost both Rubio and Love, Rubio would be much harder to directly replace IMO.
I think you guys are a bit quick to accept this as more than sample size...
Rubio is really really awesome. I will not argue that. However, Love will climb back up. Hell, he had a better rating before the weekend.
Current:
Rubio = 0.244
Love = 0.212
2011:
Love = 0.335
2010:
Love = 0.251
I should note....
if we can assume that the standard player progression with age applies to Rubio (debatable I think) he will be a super-hero by the time his rookie contract is up.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/clubhouse.html
One of the best parts of BR’s team clubhouse is the last 10 bit. Of the 10 things they measure, 7 have been below Love’s career average in the last 10 games while 6 of Rubio’s have been above average over the same span.
Love is playing below his 09/10 levels right now. Rubio is stupid good and a lot better than I thought he would be, but Love is going through a “bad” stretch right now (while still being fairly productive).
BTW
How about this question (in light of tonight’s game): Kyle Lowry better than Ricky in every single category?
(Outside of steals, yes. Crazy, right?)
With the expection of steals...
in which our lil-Unicorn is performing at an extreme level…
Also… Lowry’s rebound are going to drop.
Lowry worse in assists too, unless I'm reading this wrong.
by Rascal Flatts on Jan 23, 2012 3:41 PM CST up reply actions
Lowry is a legit player.
Another one of those guys that makes me like smart, hardworking defense first guys as draft picks. At the very least they become productive backups.
I will say this:
if someone forced me to trade either Love or Rubio, I’d pick Love 10 times out of 10. Whether the stats support it or not.
This
I’m a big KLove fan, but there are a lot of good power forwards in the league and not as many good point guards (especially ones that are elite distributors). It would be interesting if Love’s contract status was such that they had another year to evaluate Williams before extending Love. If the team had some level of confidence that Williams would be good (all star caliber), would they be temped to trade Love for a young all star level wing? Probably makes a lot more sense to keep the player you know is good (Love), but it is interesting to consider.
I don’t think I’ll even pretend to have a rational argument. I just like Ricky better: the way he plays, his demeanor (e.g., he doesn’t do the Kevin Love hold-your-arms-out-with-a-very-serious-face-so-you-can-worship-me pose), how he runs the offense, etc. Love does some great things, but Ricky turns the Wolves into a completely different team, at least aesthetically.
That hold your arms out bit really rubbed me the wrong way, too
Even Ricky’s celebration after hitting the 3 was more likable.
That being said, I think you guys are crazy ;)
Nope
He’s fun to watch and, who knows, by this time on Thursday I might think Love is the worst player in the world.
I know that he'll still be a RFA...
…if he doesn’t sign, but I think that it would be a pretty glaring signal that he has zero intention of staying, as he would be leaving a max year on the table to hit the free market. This is what I just don’t get about the Wolves’ position here: they want him to take 4 years. If you jerk him around he’ll risk 1 year to get the 5 year deal or they’ll trade him to a team that will give him the big deal. There is just nothing that makes sense about them waiting so long for this damn thing. Papa Glen, you like competitive balance for small market teams? Here it is…staring you right in the face: the best way you guys cooked up to get a single alpha dog in each market. Congrats.
My sources tell me there's a big coming tonight!
(Just kidding)
(Obviously I have no sources).
That is what I’ve been hoping for though.
I would pick Rubio just because I like him better.
Like you guys said, Love rubs me the wrong way. Seems like a bit of an arrogant D-bag.
He is still awesome though.
Rubio has to earn it.
Give it at least one season before putting up any polls.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Gah
I coulda swore at one point pre-2008 draft you called Love a dookie-in-sheep’s-clothing (or something to that effect) and even had a few chuckles at the possibility McHale might like him; that was before you turned 180 degrees on him after crunching the numbers, of course.
I was going to try to find it to maybe help, but alas, a 45-second archive seach has yielded nothing…
Quasi Dookie
Remember when everyone went nuts about his outlet passes and how he was pitched as the anti-Mayo? Oh, he screamed Dookie. He turned out to be a pretty damn good player despite fitting the Dookie profile ;)
It was on the old site
Which has been eaten by the intertronz. Here’s the quote (from a comment in one of the draft boards):
Kevin Love, “C”, UCLA- Mr. Love is a highly regarded freshman with a purported knack for pristine outlet passes. He’s also a questionable 6’9" with modest athleticism and little to no promise of guarding legitimate Association 5’s on a greater level than Big Al. On the plus side, Love is a hoops junkie (he watches tapes of Wes Unseld) who is supposedly a coaches’ dream (he proactively sought out the advice of John Wooden) with a high b-ball IQ. Can you think of a player that could possibly appeal more to Kevin McHale than Mr. Love? That fact alone should scare the bejeezus out of you…to say nothing of a 6’9" pseudo-Dukie who is best known for his outlet passing. Just what the Wolves need, right? Fear the Love.
December 07.
Then he played.
That 08 draft board was my worst (and first) draft board. It really wasn’t that good. I really put a lot of personal stock in the first draft board and I didn’t look at raw production and efficiency as different things. I really didn’t know how to plug guards into the system, either. I was wayyyyyy off on guards.
"Even Ricky’s celebration after hitting the 3 was more likable"
Skipping to the bench like a little girl, si.
Impersonating the giant Jesus of Rio? Non!
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
My favorite part of Ricky's celebration
Was when he started walking toward Tolliver. He began nodding his head furiously before dishing out two big chest bumps to Tolly and Wayne. It was really cool to see the entire team celebrate like that. We haven’t seen enough of that sort of thing ’round these parts.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
And they do it in a good way
and not like Chris Weber’s Kings who made you hate them everytime they celebrated.
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
I never thought I would be saying this so soon...
but me too.
Rubio is just so damned likeable.
However…. there is no reason to get rid of either player.
This reminded me of SnP's point on the potential villainy of the Wolves (in the Clips' game wrap?)
Kevin Love is an excellent player who seems truly commited to always improving his game, a intelligent guy who comports himself well off the court, and I am so stoked to have him on my team. That said, if he weren’t on my team, I’d be all, “Uggghhhh, I hate that douche.” For his on-court whining, his ability to draw fouls, his general demeanor, etc. (I am aware that is sort of a creepy and vaguely offensive term; I’m pretty sure it’s what I’d say though).
I LOVE Ricky Rubio. From his preference for “making two people happy” to his utter relentlessness and composure on the court , to his appreciation for “the warmth of the people.” I would love him no matter what team he were on, I think.
And let's not even get into
who you’d want to be stuck on a desert island with….
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
Rubio probably has a nasty dark side
It’s going to be great TV when it is revealed.
by fanslaststand on Jan 23, 2012 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
Rumor mill starter:
The reason the Lion King is his favorite movie is because he loves to watch Mufasa get killed.
by princelyfrank on Jan 23, 2012 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
The real reason he took two years to come here
is because he needed time to get all of the bodies out of his basement.
"Love is who he is. He is a grinder, a scaveranger . . ." --TO12
by Cynical Jason on Jan 23, 2012 6:17 PM CST up reply actions
They're both a little hairy for my taste
but since I don’t aspire to be a bottom, I think I’d go with Ricky.
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
by TMiss on Jan 24, 2012 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You've painted an image
I really don’t need hanging in my mental gallery. I wish I had an Etch-a-Sketch brain. I’d just shake it away.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 24, 2012 8:24 PM CST up reply actions
There seems to be a bond forming between him and Love, too
Not just one borne out of friendship, but out of mutual respect for each others knowledge of the game. There are quite a few affable and talented players on this team, but there seems to be a trust between the two that isn’t there with the others. I wouldn’t be surprised if Adelman has similar relationships with both guys for the same reason, and as such I think both Adelman and Rubio are big reasons why Love may consider staying in Minny. He now has two people who are not only competent at their jobs, but just as outstanding as he is.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
I'm imagining Madison Dan (Who I don't know and therefore has no face)
In a room full of medieval torture devices strapped to a chair, and some burly, sweat-drenched guy with foul breath has his nose right in Dan’s face saying “You choose, Love or Rubio.” Of course Dan might have the balls to handle it since he was the first one I’ve heard question Love’s Christ the saviour with no holes in his hands and no pain in his face pose. I rationalized it as
“We got our selves one confident and determined boy here,” but I was discomforted by it too. It was no Lake Wobegone born and bred show of humility.
"pokin' the animals at the Canis Hoopus zoo"
by pastyearsears on Jan 23, 2012 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
With torture devices?
I cave immediately. Love, Rubio, Wes. I’ll tell them to keep whichever one they tell me to say.
I have convinced myself, despite all evidence to the contrary, that Madison Dan is a preteen Japanese girl
I will not be convinced otherwise. It’s more entertaining to ignore the obvious reality, as watching the past few Timberwolves seasons has taught me.
Gary, you didn't kill your brother. Those gorillas did.
Having met Madison Dan
I can tell you that you are absolutely correct.
I've changed my sig. The Wolves are now like a reasonably decent meal.
by Eric in Madison on Jan 23, 2012 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
Too cute
Khan seems to be playing this a little too cute. Kevin Love is worth a five year max deal right now whereas Ricky Rubio “might” be worth that deal in a few years. And the extra year seems to be a deal breaker for Love. My take on Rubio is that when the time comes (if he wants to stay in here) he will sign a four year deal and be happy. If he wants to leave for NY or LA, the extra year the Wolves can offer won’t make any difference to him.
Neither guy is going anywhere unless RFA somehow gets eliminated.
We might piss either and their agent off, but no one passes up a max or near max offersheet and plays for the QO. The guys that end up playing for the QO aren’t getting near max offersheets and losing out a nearly $9-10 million that year.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
been saying this
people don’t joke around with their first big money contracts. they are too young and injuries are too risky for anybody to leave that kind of money on the table that would take them from wealthy to rich.
next contract, they are bolting for sure if the team sucks, right now it ain’t happening unless the team wants to use them as trade chips, which isn’t the case (i hope it isn’t).
Side note on Love:
I don’t know where to put this, but I think it’s interesting. Love’s true shooting percentage with 0 days rest versus 1 or 2:
0 days = 0.475
1 or 2 days = 0.585
His rebounds per 36 minutes don’t really differ much. I guess the man needs some rest to hit his shots.
Yeah, on the tail ends of these back-to-backs
his shot is flat and dead. He doesn’t even get his customary limited elevation.
"Love is who he is. He is a grinder, a scaveranger . . ." --TO12
by Cynical Jason on Jan 23, 2012 6:19 PM CST up reply actions
So Love gets the five years because he comes first?
Let me put it this way. If you’re Wolves’ mgmt, don’t you have to try to save the five-year thing for Rubio? It’s a no-doubter that you give it to Love if he demands it, but don’t you have to try to get him to accept the four-year? As long as you’re not pissing him off. Again, I think Love will agree to four if he can have an opt-out after three.
What is better? Five years for Love, max of four for Rubio OR possible three years of Love, five for Rubio?
On the other hand, if you give Love five years, then you are having the discussion with Rubio in Love’s third year with two to go after that season.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
Not really
Look, I’m the guy who spent the last 2 years watching almost every Barca game. I love Rubio as much as anyone, but I think we are getting a little ahead of the story on him.
I guess if Love will take 4, OK, but frankly I would rather have Love locked up for 5 years after this one, and Rubio for the next 4 (including his RFA year if it comes to that, which it probably will not) than any other combination.
I've changed my sig. The Wolves are now like a reasonably decent meal.
by Eric in Madison on Jan 23, 2012 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
Especially when Unicorns are 3 years away from extension talk.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Yeah
I really don’t get the “what about Rubio” extension stuff. He’s played 15 games. 15 awesome games, but 15 games. You have to give Love the 5 years. This was obvious on the day the new CBA was signed. They’ve just been needlessly playing chicken ever since.
This is the point
I don’t see how it makes sense to screw around with Kevin Love, established as one of the best guys in the league, because of something that might or might not become an issue 3 years down the road. Who knows what things will look like at that point? What we do know, at least as well as we can know, is that Kevin Love is going to continue to be a monster player for the foreseeable future.
I've changed my sig. The Wolves are now like a reasonably decent meal.
by Eric in Madison on Jan 23, 2012 4:24 PM CST up reply actions
Yep.
You can sign Love for 5. Then in when Rubio’s time comes sign him for four, and you will still have him for longer then Love’s 5 year deal. No brainer.
4 vs 5
Wait, don’t we WANT Love for 5 years?
Nobody knows what the world will look like when it’s time to offer Rubio the 60MILLION!!! we’re worried about him scoffing at.
They need to change this rule tho. It’s bull that some teams were grandfathered in like OKC’s deal with Durant. For something like this they need to say ’OK, in the year 2016 this will be implemented.
I think that for some of us
there’s this very tiny fear that we’ll sign KLove for five years and then wake up the next morning to find out he’s turned into Isaiah Rider.
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
Following the Transitive Property of Fanshots
This means that Rubio is better than KG.
Q.E.D.
impressive
Too hot to handle, too cold to hold
They're called the Ghostbusters and they're in control
by littleboxes on Jan 23, 2012 10:19 PM CST up reply actions
No.
Maybe in a few years he will be more valuable, but right now no way.
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
ricky rubio is the best player on the wolves and its not that close. this is not an aesthetic judgement.
its about who impacts the game more, and in a couple of years when APM has enough data points to make a reliable assessment, i guarantee love will come out around 0-1.5 while rubio will be a 2.5-4.0. rubio is really, really good and he would still be very good even if he shot 30% from the field because he shoots so infrequently and does so many other things so well. the ricks (rubio and adleman) are why the t-wolves are good now.
"We would look at each other with a glint of recognition and one of us would say, 'So you worry about ASIK, too,' as if admitting a secret vice. Then we would share our crazy ideas-- because all ideas about ASIK that are not immediately wrong turn out to be crazy."
In terms of the WP/48 metric, the entire leaderboard for PF's looks sort of strange
Here are the top PF’s according to WP/48 (excluding those with under 300 minutes):
Paul Millsap .309
Ryan Anderson .290
Kevin Love .212
Kris Humphries .205
Serge Ibaka .204
Vladimir Radmonovic .188
Elton Brand .176
Taj Gibson .173
Amir Johnson .170
Carlos Boozer .162
Sort of a strange grouping, to say the least.
Small samples size caveats apply (and Love’s career WP/48 is higher, and last year in particular he was a monster), but maybe the silver lining is if the fit hits the shan with Love, perhaps it’s not that hard to find effective options at the PF (at least according to WP/48).
FWIW, DWill, in limited time currently sports a .144 WP/48. Although he’s listed as an unspecified “Forward.” I don’t know enough about WP/48 to know if designating him as a 4 would affect his number one way or the other…
If anyone cares
Here’s the league top 10 in ws/48, a metric I personally like a little better because it attempts to gauge performance relative to usage a little more than wp/48:
1. LeBron James-MIA .360
2. James Harden-OKC .274
3. Paul Millsap-UTA .259
4. Ryan Anderson-ORL .256
5. Derrick Rose-CHI .245
6. Louis Williams-PHI .241
7. Tyson Chandler-NYK .229
8. Kevin Love-MIN .224
9. Kevin Durant-OKC .213
10. Marc Gasol-MEM .211
Again, small sample size caveats…I’m not sure how to get a PF-only on this one on bb-ref. Guys like Boozer (.210) and LMA (.201) are in the top 20.
Going back for comparison, here’s the overall top 10 for wp/48 for guys over 300 minutes:
1. Lebron James .428
2. Tyson Chandler .329
3. Sam Dalembert .311
4. Paul Millsap .309
5. Spencer Hawes .297
6. Ryan Anderson .290
7. Chris Paul .284
8. Dwight Howard .281
9. Andre Iguodala .272
10. Kyle Lowry .270
Not sure what my point is (outside of the idea Paul Millsap’s been killing teams other than the Wolves so far).
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