Live chat with Kahn at Noon!
I wish he would just keep his mouth shut at times like these. I'm betting there will be some BS explanations about why KLove's deal isn't 5 years and talk about how young Wes is and that he will improve, even though that is proven wrong by all forms of statistics.
4 months ago
twolf1
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Yes please.. I would throw the max at him this summer
without hesitation. You have to feel awful for Dell Demps who seems to be a rather competent GM. The poor guy is not being allowed to do his job.
Well, he's not going to be signing any offer sheets after turning down a max contract
He’ll accept the QO.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
He seemed to think the center spot was a bigger need than shooting guard
This surprises me.
Yeah
He went with “we like Martell, Malcolm Lee, JJ Barea’s been hurt, Wes isn’t confident right now, etc…” I think he even said at this time he can’t ascertain that it’s a problem due to their injuries.
And the post went where…?
He basically said that he can’t even ascertain right now how big a need they have there due to injuries. He just mentioned Wes isn’t confident right now.
Which is basically true...
Do we have one, two, three, four, or five rotation-worthy backup wings?
Barea and Wayne look like they fit that category, but I don’t expect Webster or Lee to be any better than those two. And if Wes keeps slowly improving, maybe he can also be on that level. Okay, great, let’s finish that analysis, and in the meantime…LET’S GET A LEGITIMATE STARTER!!!!
I expect Lee to be better than Wayne
But I don’t really submit to the theory Wayne is rotation-worthy. I think he’s been that in spurts. Your point stands.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
As a guy who called Ellington the worst player in the league last season
I will agree that he has been playing decent. Continued success seems to be entirely dependent on maintaining his career low Turnover %. These seems possible given that we require him to create less off the dribble in this offense than in the biangle.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
I was just looking at that
his shooting regressed enough in the last two games that he’s back to his career average TS% now. (When I update the chart I made for my FanPost with the last two games, his line go straight back down.) His turnovers are way down, but so are his assists. Maybe that’s a good trade for us.
The most important factor (statistically) seems to be an improvement in his defense (his DRtg is way down), and I have a hard time judging that.
DRtg
It’s down because he’s being told to guard the 3 point line.
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by HumdingerTV on Jan 27, 2012 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
i.e. coaching
he’s playing better cause he is buying into the coaching he is getting
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
Mostly he's the unscratched-off-lottery ticket.
But his reputation for defense and slightly better size than Ellington (he’s only about 1/4 inch taller, but his wingspan is 2 3/5 inches longer) could help. If the shooting is a wash, Lee could take Ellington’s minutes.
He's also a fair amount more athletic
and a much better ball handler
his ceiling is definitely higher than Wayne Ellington’s
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I know people will crucify Kahn for saying this,
but I think he has a good point. We don’t really know what we have. Webster could be good. It is not super likely but we don’t know at this point. Apparently Lee is good because we instantly gave him a long contract but we haven’t seen him really play either. Barea is injured and would be part of the solution. Wes is probably going to keep being bad but they want to give him a chance which is nice of them.
What Kahn means is that it is sort of premature to start mixing and matching players and trading and drafting when we haven’t really seen what we have. We kind of need to let these guys play for a while under Adelman and then the needs will become apparent.
It is sort of reminiscent of last year when Kahn said he didn’t want to make any trades until we see what we have, while the team was being epically bad. We all thought it was crazy but it made sense.
Simply put, you need to see a player play for a while before you throw him away, and we haven’t seen a lot of our guys play. (wes is getting pretty close though)
We pretty much know exactly what we have at the 2
Webster – our best hope at the 2/3. ws/48 around 0.07. Hopefully his injury isn’t an issue in the future
Wayne – has had a good year, but probably not a started on a playoff team
Lee – a complete unknown
Barea – really is mostly a point guard
Wes – 75% of the way to being labeled a bust
Lee is really the only guy we can’t say much about.
You're being kind here
To Wayne and Wes, and Webster is almost as unknown as Lee.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
"Webster is almost as unknown as Lee."
He’s played 8000 NBA minutes. The only thing unknown about Webster is if his back will hold up.
by Simitar on Jan 26, 2012 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
I would quibble with the .7 designation. Under Rambis he had a WS48 of .77 the year before he was .105, the year before that was a 5 minute (injury) and -.2 and the year prior to that .79 so if healthy I think at worst he gives us .7 with a .9 score being a bit more likely (i.e. no Triangle or Rambis, playing with Ricky, more time at the 3 than 2 etc.).
He's a quality pro player
nothing special but should help
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Sorry, I meant Webster's production is an unknown
Due to his injury and surgery. Obviously we know Martell.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
Re: Barea
Is that a problem?
When he’s come out next to Rubio he’s been killing teams, cause he is so quick and he can get round the bigger defender. Luke is doing similar, albeit slightly less of the quickness and driving for fouls. I actually prefer Ridnour at the 2 next to Rubio than I do at point.
Live And Stupid From England
by JonesTheCat on Jan 27, 2012 7:04 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I think Webster’s their best hope. He’s their one wing with size who is actually a wing (unlike Beasley, who’s only been promising as a 4 in his career, and Wes, who was more of a 4/3 hybrid at Syracuse). He’s showed a little improvement, hasn’t been really truly awful, and he has a full season of roughly average play on his resume. He’s been a decent offensive player; his defense hasn’t been as good as advertised but since many other Wolves have improved defensively under Adelman, maybe he will too.
That said, what is Webster’s upside? And what to make of the fact he hasn’t been able to play through an entire season 2 of the past 3 seasons?
More to the point, there is nothing wrong with having a project here and there on the roster. When all their eggs are in that basket, though, where they’re depending on one or two of these Kahn guys is going to be a better player than he’s shown thus far, well, I think a touch more urgency isn’t unwarranted.
That said, I wouldn’t expect him to come right out and declare they’re open for business for wings, either.
Powerball
That’s like buying a lottery ticket and then watching the TV/internet to see if you won, and then trying to re-sell the ticket after you lost. The team should have some additional insight whether a player is going to pan out or not — maybe not all the time — but the MO of letting the option value of all these guys expire worthless is not a good strategy, IMO. It’s as if they’re afraid to be wrong on letting a guy go too early and always have plausible deniability on being able to trade them away. How good would Paul George for Flynn look right now — I think the majority of this site supported that at the time, but front office completely overvalued JFlynn to justify the position where he was drafted by the organization.
by PoohRichardson on Jan 27, 2012 12:47 AM CST up reply actions
Preaching patience is pretty pointless when you just signed your franchise player to a 3-year deal
Sorry, Kahn, no time left to be patient! Nice job!
by HowManyFoulsOnShaq? on Jan 27, 2012 7:13 AM CST up reply actions
Honestly though...
Both positions could use an upgrade at the starter level. But in the terms of able players: SG: Barea, Ellington, Ridnour, Lee, Webster, [Johnson… not quite ‘able’]; C: Darko, Pekovic, [Tolliver, Randolph, Miller]. An above average SG would probably be better for long term success. A functional C is probably a more immediate need.
by Krotz the Wall on Jan 26, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
One thing that is helpful to us at Center
is that Love can play there when we go to a small lineup. I also think Brad Miller will be able to give some quality minutes and Pek is improving.
I wouldn't be surprised
if Kahn is sitting on a deal for a starting level C but has little to no prospect of adding a quality wing. Something like this might bias his comments.
I don't know
Remember back pre-draft the Wolves were trying to elicit offers for the #2 pick for a “veteran big man” in return? Granted, a good (consistent) center would be spectacular. But part of me wonders if they just don’t recognize how bad they are on the wing. They can cite their injured guys all they want; it doesn’t change the fact none of them have the track record/realistic expectations to be a quality starter.
I just hope Nicolas Batum is long and athletic enough for them to make a move this summer. Their pattern is to avoid decisions/commitments, though.
The team being in denial about the quality of their wing players
is a fear of mine. Unfortunately I think you might be onto something there. A part of me that just keeps thinking, how can they not see it? It’s not so much the lack of consistent offense from the 2/3. It’s the terrible defense. The other teams center doesn’t usually light us up, but the opponents wings often times do (Joe Johnson, Kevin Martin, Tayshawn Prince to name a few just from this year).
Absolutely no chance team is denial about wings
Keep in mind who the main evaluator is. One year ago, I’d totally agree with your fear.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
"in"
no chance they’re “in” denial.
You can't...dust...for vomit.
"I just hope Nicolas Batum is long and athletic enough for them to make a move this summer."
Kahn loves Batum. I’ll be shocked if he doesn’t at least attempt to get him.
Judging by how conservatively they approached the Kevin Love negotiations, I’d be shocked if Taylor Corp was willing to make an aggressive enough offer to Batum that Portland would not match.
We seemed willing to throw a ton of money at Gay and/or Lee last offseason.
And Kahn does have a “Batum boner”…
Paul Allen
During the lockout, Allen seemed to suddenly go into “I’M A SMALL MARKET OWNER!” mode.
These new-found spending conservatism could help us.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
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by HumdingerTV on Jan 27, 2012 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, this.
I don’t think we have the wherewithal to shake a RFA of any substance loose this offseason.
I think this is the first time in history one man managed to destroy an entire city by himself. Even the Enola Gay had a flight crew.
Those pining for Batum will like this
From Timothy Varner, 48 Minutes of Hell: Nico Batum. His negotiations with the Blazers went sour early, and one wonders if Batum’s relationship with the team isn’t permanently damaged. Batum’s agent is already warning that his client will make himself available to anyone other than the Blazers this offseason.
by Imyourhuckleberry on Jan 26, 2012 2:47 PM CST up reply actions
I've heard the negotiations were friendly but just never went anywhere
Or, maybe this is just an emotional agent talking.
But…if there’s a kernel of truth anywhere in there, I hope the Wolves are on the phone as we speak. I know they can perhaps put themselves in position to make an offer this summer, but getting the right to match (not to mention getting him on the team post haste) would be huge.
hmmm...
and if this were true(and holy crap do I hope it is), it would make sense that Kahn would publicly state that C is a bigger need…you know, so as not to appear ridiculously desperate for a wing and diminish any leverage he may think he has.
Reason is the first victim of strong emotion.
That would be an interesting take
if Kahn hasn’t always said exactly what was on his mind. Whenever the collective here thinks that THIS time Kahn has to be using misdirection, we are proven wrong. He was simply being bluntly honest, and in doing so nearly always reveals a sad lack of basketball acumen.
by Krotz the Wall on Jan 27, 2012 7:29 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with this
I think Kahn has a lot of irrational hope for Lee. I expect Lee to be better than Ellington but still a backup … Kahn’s view seems to be a better 3 point shooting Tony Allen. I actually love the way our bigs are playing right now and I expect Pek to continue to be worth 25 minutes per game which means if we get good games from Darko here and there and Miller is serviceable it’s not as big a weakness as the wing spots.
I’m going to repeat this until others believe it: Pek + Ridnour to Portland for Batum + Thomas. Either make a QO to Batum and match what other teams offer or just offer 4/44 and be done with it. Addendum: Deal Williams to patch up the hole at C just created by moving Pek
Malcolm Lee's upside
is better overall (but specifically ball handling and shooting) Gerald Henderson
Which…would help. Not an all-star, but maybe a starter. I think almost certainly he will be a rotation guy.
I’ve been high on him for awhile and he was one of two guys I really wanted in the later half of the draft with Darius Morris
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Pretty solid
for a 2nd round draft choice
also absolutely a playable player in the 2 spot.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Kevin Love loves Lee
and that’s good enough for me. Love’s been right about all the UCLA players that have done well in the NBA.
Yo ho ho and a FirstRow stream!
And he seemed to know that Hollins was...
terrible as well.
by vjl110 on Jan 26, 2012 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Something weird is up with Ben Howland and UCLA
How can so many players be better in the NBA than the PAC 10? Westbrook, Collison, Holiday, Afflalo, Mbuh Asomething, I’ll even throw Love in there.
It's great
It seems like Howland prepares them really well to succeed defensively, but has such a dysfunctional offensive system that they get under-drafted.
Ben Howland's coaching
is the circle from which the biangle is tangentially derived.
Reason is the first victim of strong emotion.
What do you want?
That is how I have assessed Malcolm Lee’s skill set.
Got a problem with it?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I asked what the basis was
I looked and could find nothing but them having similar heights. No mention on draftx, nothing on the espn… Lee is supposed to be a defensive stopper, the other guy looks like someone who shoots too much…
Figured someone who writes so much might not mind explaining… ;-)
K
Simple break down of my comparison
similar height/weight
good defensive players and athletes with less then excellent perimeter jumpers
fair ability to get to the free throw line
from what I can tell comparing how they played in college Lee is quite a bit better at ballhandling than Henderson which will probably make him better at getting to the line even.
I would bet Lee is a little better open jump shooter too
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:36 AM CST up reply actions
Tough to know anything about Malcolm Lee until he plays a game.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
I mean it's not a crime
to go off of how he played in college and make a prediction based on his skill set
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
says.....?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Kahn in this interview...
its up and working now.
http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub
by beatsandpeasnyc on Jan 27, 2012 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
oh nice I'll check that out
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I saw the questions but none of the answers
And it says it ended at 12:21…really?
You can't...dust...for vomit.
He didn't want to commit to a longer segment for fear of injury
by TenderWolf on Jan 26, 2012 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 15 recs
Someone give that man an internets.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions
Methinks there was some screening of the questions
That’s not surprising, obviously, but sheesh. There’s got to be some way to sneak a question in there that a) he’d actually answer and b) might give a little insight to their thinking, right?
Yeah, the "what's been your favorite memory from this season?" question
had to be submitted by someone on the payroll.
Or
do you feel vindicated now your rebuilding plan has started to pay off for the team and do you think the Wolves have a shot of reaching the playoffs this year considering how the team has performed early with key players injured?
Did he answer that one? I only caught the very last portion and it doesn’t seem to be available on replay yet.
I just hope Pek was setting the screen.
Live And Stupid From England
by JonesTheCat on Jan 27, 2012 7:11 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Was PDgirl asking questions?
And where has PoorDick been?
You can't...dust...for vomit.
Very funny.
And Poor Dick has not been around lately :( :( :(. Not sure why… Maybe if we all wish on some unicorn dust…
by PDGirl on Jan 26, 2012 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I know it's silly,
but his absence has me a little concerned.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
Last Login: January 26, 2012
Unless the kidnappers are also Wolves’ fans, I think we can breathe easily.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
I'm not worried he's trapped under a fallen vending machine or anything,
but for some reason he’s lurking and depriving us of his wit. I want to know why! Why? WHY? WHY?
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
My sources tell me that there is likely no cause for concern
about, like, his health or safety or anything :). I just want him to post again. It is silly, but I think PoorDick would be tickled that we care.
by PDGirl on Jan 26, 2012 5:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Holy shit I just realized what the PD in PDGirl stands for
Am I right with what I’m thinking here? MIND BLOWN
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 5:29 PM CST up reply actions
For cryin' out loud
I have justified my name many times. I actually created it BEFORE PoorDick joined.
I don’t care if you make fun of me. I do want him to post again though.
So it doesn't stand for what I think it stands for
or does PoorDick stand for PD?
I am so confused
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
I'm going to take this as the truth
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
she is the one and only
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
My sources tell me that PD has been entered into
the witness protection program for he and his families safety.. He was understood to have made one too many hostile posts regarding a certain Balkan Bulldozer, even going so far as to question this individuals actual basketball skills! The government agencies felt strongly that there was imminent danger to PD and have moved him and his family to Keokuk, Iowa where he will assume a new identity as a farm implement distributor.
My sources have been 100% accurate in the past about the impressive dribbling and passing skills of one J Flynn, so they are not to be questioned….
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
Oooof. Iowa.
That’s brutal.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
It was supposed to be Idaho,
but the agent in charge of processing had been involved in a nasty racial/sexual imbroglio recently, so thought Iowa was a safer destination, all things considered….
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
Of course.
There are no racial distinctions in Iowa, and sex doesn’t happen. EXCEPT WITH CORN!
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:20 PM CST up reply actions
It always comes back to corn
seriously I thought a high brow professor could do better than that.
CORN!
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
Just being silly.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:25 PM CST up reply actions
Every native Minnesotan knows that
our neighbors to the south have a special talent when it comes to tall green stalks. You can refer ti it as “corn”, if you wish…
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
I haven't mentioned it yet
don’t want to jinx it, but I also miss the erudite wisdom of the Philadelphia Printer. Hoping he hasn’t been abducted by a powdered beverage religious group!
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
Not anymore.
Now that his location has been revealed ON THE INTERNET, they surely must have moved him. Probably somewhere quiet like Montana or something.
Wait a minute...
You’re saying that this isn’t a totally private and secure experience? Whoa, that may change my total approach to these discussion boards! I may have to rethink my involvement in the turban wearing-cross border- snowmobile group that I’ve been spending a great deal of time with online lately…
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
Whatever, blabbermouth.
I just hope they moved him before the other they got to him. PoorDick better be okay or … I am not sure. I guess I would cry. A lot.
Wilson Chandler & OJ Mayo
I think both these guys are attainable. If they were our starters at the 2 and the 3 spots we would easily make the playoffs. I think Pek and Darko compliment themselves well enough at the 5. The question is what could we offer Memphis for Mayo? Luke Ridnour and return their first round pick? Memphis wants a backup point guard. They probably won’t match offers made to Mayo in the offseason.
by GritNGrind on Jan 26, 2012 2:16 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Is it possible David Kahn was hired
because he’s willing to be the personification of Glen Taylor’s fiscal douchyness and no one else was?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Kahn was hired because Taylor scared everyone else off by insisting on keeping McHale.
by Ray Williams? on Jan 26, 2012 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Nice coup for Kahn
he got the job and didn’t have to keep McHale anyway
by HowManyFoulsOnShaq? on Jan 27, 2012 7:19 AM CST up reply actions
Kahn was hired in part because he accepted keeping front office contracts around until they expired.
That meant Stack kept earning his GM’s salary while being a regional scouting guy in Chicago. It wasn’t about McHale, as we saw. Candidates like Lindsey bowed out when they couldn’t bring in their own front office people around themselves.
Whether that amounts to what VoodooMagic said…. When it comes to negotiations, isn’t that sort of the GM’s job description anyway? Players have agents to “personify” their own financial nastiness too. (Eddie Mars doesn’t kill people; he just hires it done.)
"First, I'd like to blame the Lord for causing us to lose today."
Whose role is so nebulous that I'm sure nobody discusses it in negotiations.
They just nod toward the chandelier, gently implying that one doesn’t want it to drop on the opera crowd, or something.
"First, I'd like to blame the Lord for causing us to lose today."
Yeah
I don’t know how they even go around it. “Yeah, you know the guy who was in LA doing film production before he latched on with the Kings and married Taylor’s wayward daughter…um, yeah…about that guy. He sort of has been given a fair amount of control over the team and…um…”
Darko/Pek
I’m ok with rolling with these guys (+ Miller coming back, +Love in a small ball line up) at the 5 for the moment.
Collectively, that’s an ok position. Could we upgrade it? Sure, but I think the 2/3 spot is more pressing and easier to fix than magically finding an solid upgrade center (Hibbert and Lopez are available as RFAs this year)
Since Pek has come back, we’ve played some decent centers and nobody has truly torched us in the middle, we’re 5-4 with Pek in the line up and he’s really improving some aspects of his game from last year (with the help of rubio), he’s drawing less fouls, shooting at a higher percentage, and isn’t getting dinged with quite as many 3 second violations.
check out the lines of the opponents best center with the Pek/Darko combo
Haywood 8 pts 10 boards 1 block
Dalembert 4 pts 15 boards 2 blocks
Jefferson 18 pts 12 boards
Jordan 2 pts 11 boards 3 blocks
Wallace 2 pts 2 boards 3 steals
Cousins 10 pts 3 boards 2 blocks
Zaza 6 pts 5 boards
Okafor 16 pts 14 boards
Noah 8 pts 11 boards
We haven’t faced Howard, and a couple guys played very good games against us (Jefferson, Okafor), but that’s not a terrible group of guys, and no one destroyed us from that position.
I have Okafor in my NBA 2005 TWolves team, he's a beast.
That said, he’s alongside Howard, Nash, Melo and Ginobili.
Live And Stupid From England
by JonesTheCat on Jan 27, 2012 7:33 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
LOL
I thought I was the only one who still played NBA Live 2005
Or are we talking just NBA?
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 27, 2012 7:35 AM CST up reply actions
NBA Live! I got it for ÂŁ2 last year.
I’m still on PS2, don’t play enough to warrant a PS3.
Got NBA 2K12 for PS2 today, and frankly, it’s not a patch on Live 05.
Live And Stupid From England
Yeah I'm sure they put absolute minimum effort into 2k12
I used to play massive amounts of dynasty mode in 05. I probably went through 10 or 15 seasons as Wolves GM….We were a legendary team.
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 27, 2012 2:29 PM CST up reply actions
For some reason I can't get the stamina bar to work, so I'm running with that starting 5 and no subs in season mode.
Alley-oops all over.
Live And Stupid From England
one more
strong perimeter defender is what we should be looking for. I think with Rubio and Love, we’ll have enough offensive firepower, but if we could get a lock-down 2/3 defender (which would be way cheaper than getting Eric Gordon or Kevin Martin) we could really improve our defense (and if we’re replacing Wes’s minutes, we don’t have that much offense to replace)
Batum is intriguing because he could potentially fill that role of a second perimeter defender (with Rubio) to make the wolves really difficult to play against. If we could find a Tony Allen type, that would be amazing.
Maybe you are looking for Malcolm Lee?
Draft report: Lee is a bit of a mystery. One thing is for sure though. The man who averaged 13.1 points, 2.0 assists and 3.1 rebounds per game as a junior is an athletic stud who plays terrifically on the defensive end of the court.
by Imyourhuckleberry on Jan 26, 2012 4:04 PM CST up reply actions
sure
if he turns out to be Tony Allen 2.0 (9.6 pts 3.5 boards, 2 steals .476% FG) per game that would be a pretty awesome outcome.
he kinda has to play an NBA game before i’m going to say he’s a long term solution for the 2/3 defender, but it’s nice to be optimistic.
I'm hoping he's Tony Allen with a 3 point shot
I have high standards =)
Looking at the stats
It’s hard to see that, but then Westbrook’s stats didn’t wow anyone either. UCLA guards are hard to figure. Hoping he can get there.
by Imyourhuckleberry on Jan 26, 2012 4:57 PM CST up reply actions
yeah I know
I really don’t know what to expect other than defense which is a nice change of pace. He flashed some nice ball handling skills in preseason but Johnny Flynn looked good in preseason.
Idk about 3 point shot
but he might already be a much better ball handler than Allen
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Given he shot 30%, 25%. and 30% from three in college...
I hope nobody is counting on that being a part of his game. In fact, it could be argued that taking a ton of 3 point attempts at a crappy percentage was instrumental in his mediocre college success.
Yeah
Idk who brought up the three point shot.
He can hit open jumpers (I would put him in the Rubio category for 3 point shooting…if he’s open and set he can hit them) but anything close to in his grill and I’m not expecting it to go in.
Guys a ball handler though, good enough to play point in college which isn’t what he is best it….which is slashing…which is what we desperately need. He indeed is a 2nd round pick, but I think in terms of skill set he gives us exactly what we need in a 2 guard. Idk if it all can be played at the pro level….but if it can he’ll be a huge steal
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I'll take the hit on that one
Everything is based off scuttlebutt that he’s a good defender and he looked good shooting and handling the ball in preseason. No actual stats were observed in projecting Mr. Lee.
No worries pal
If stats aren’t on BR (hench a click away) I generally don’t bother looking them up haha.
I’m pumped for Lee, I wonder when he is getting back
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Gonna keep bringing this up
Past 10 43rd picks in the draft:
Devin Ebanks, Marcus Thornton, Patrick Ewing Jr, Adam Haluska, Marcus Vinicius, Mile Ilic, Trevor Ariza, Keith Bogans. Lonny Baxter, and Kyle Hill.
50% (Ewing, Haluska, Vicinius, Ilic, Hill) did not make it more than 30 games in the NBA. Baxter lasted two years. Ariza hit a wall when he was 24 and has not been good for three straight seasons. Bogans is out of the NBA, but not exactly sure why, as he’s pretty much average by WS/48 (though he has a 10 PER over the last four seasons). Thornton better start shooting well, as he really has nothing else keeping him in the league.
I know we are getting reports that Lee is this great ballhandler, that he’s excellent on defense, that UCLA misused him and that he will bloom as a scorer. I think we are falling into the “this guy has potential” trap, and that we should note that odds are very good that Lee will not make it past his rookie contract in the NBA.
Why list just the 43rd draft position?
Chuck Hayes went undrafted and is perhaps the best post defender of the decade.
Because Lee went 43rd
And we love potential. We say “oh, this guy is a rookie so he could be anything – EVEN A SUPERSTAR!!!!” I am saying that Lee was picked at the 43rd slot, and that second rounders in the NBA bust like crazy. Yes, there are exceptions (Manu Ginobili! Michael Redd! Rashard Lewis!), but the vast majority of second rounders, especially mid-to-late second rounders, are huge busts that do nothing.
few points
A) Lee is a good ball handler. No reports needed, just watch him play at UCLA
B) Lee is a good defensive player. Again no reports needed.
C) This one is more opinion but I watched him at UCLA, his best offensive attribute is playmaking by driving and he was asked to set up the offense and play the point.
The first two, at the college level were facts. Not sure how it will look in the pro’s, but he was absolutely an elite-level college ball handler, defensive player, and athlete.
C) is more of an opinion but they guy was a machine at getting through traffic from games that I watched
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Expected draft performance
http://82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm
#43: 60% chance to be deep bench, bust, or dnp. 30% to be a role player. 10% to be anything more.
It’s hope, but let’s not try to paint it as anything but a leap.
I mean
odds-wise you are right.
But I think if Lee is rotation to starter good we’ll all look back on this and see the obvious reasoning’s he fell to pick 43.
I’m not going to guarantee anything. But I will say he has starter-level NBA ability in 4 areas (ball handling, size/athleticism, defense, driving) there are plenty of players in the NBA with starter-level ability that can’t do anything, but we got a good coach who seemingly is capable of getting the most out of his players (who buy in at least like Pek and Wayne), but Lee is a guy I will not be surprised if he is very solid to good….and I’ll also not overly be surprised if he’s just a Wayne Ellington type effectiveness
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Gotta Love It!!!!!!!
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
That's a the probability distribution
without any further information.
Now we should also think about the conditional probability distribution. He actually got offered a guaranteed contract under Adelman. Adelman loves hard working second rounders and the ones he likes usually pan out to be useful at least in spots.
Of course it's just probability distribution
The random variable of Malcolm Lee is being predicted by the known quantity of the performance history of the 43rd pick. My bet is that this educated guess still will outperform the eye test of a guy who didn’t even make the pick (do we really know that Adelman pushed for the signing?)
I like Lee and had him ranked behind Jordan Hamilton as the 5th best wing player in the draft.
I just think the chances of him panning out are slim.
No reason for you to think otherwise
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
Adelman loves hard working second rounders?
So Marcus Kennedy, Kevin Thompson, Dwayne Whitfield, Martin Lewis, Michael McDonald, Marcus Mann, Ryan Robertson, Jabari Smith, Maurice Jeffers, Corsley Edwards, Ricky Minard, and Maarty Leunen didn’t work? Besides Cliff Robinson, is there a single second rounder who panned out under Adelman?
Top 8 guys on the 61 win Sacto team (draft pick)
Christie (17th), Bibby (2nd), Peja (14th), Vlade (26th), Webber (1st), Hedo (16th), Pollard (19th), Jackson (23rd).
When he coached Portland, he had a few second rounders, but they were good before he got there. Jerome Kersey and Kevin Duckworth were 18-8 guys before Adelman even got to the team. Danny Young actually got his minutes cut under Adelman – he got traded to the Clippers a few years later.
4 out of his top 8 at GS were lottery picks – only Sprewell, BJ Armstrong, Jerome Kersey, and Tim Hardaway were outside the lottery, and Hardaway was the 14th pick in 89.
I’ll give you Luis Scola and Chuck Hayes, plus Cliff Robinson, but the vast majority of his rotations have either been first rounders or second rounders who had already proven themselves as good.
I'm sure Adleman just loves good players
if Malcolm Lee proves to be good, he’ll play
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I disagree that we should target a defensive specialist
I don’t think we have the offensive firepower in a starting 5 that includes Darko/Pek, Rubio, and whatever extra wing we are throwing out there. We should aim to improve on both sides of the ball.
i completely agree
you can get by without an amazing center in this league. we have a decent center by committee.
however, i would love to see us get the equivalent of a montA ellis or an andre iguodala.
Nice lookup.
Our center by committee seems entirely reasonable.
Rubio on a spanish sports-newspaper.
I have just read in Marca, a spanish newspaper, kind of a interview (some questions via Twitter and Rubio has answered them on Marca). Rubio, when asked “ÂżCon quĂ© jugador de toda la NBA te encantarĂa jugar para formar una gran dupla en la cancha?” (With which NBA player would you love to play to build a great couple on the court?), has answered “Me gustarĂa jugar con uno que salte mucho para tirarle el balĂłn arriba y que haga buenos mis pases, no? jejeje…Ojalá fuera con Pau Gasol.” (I would like to play with one who can jump a lot to put the ball high and make my passes look good, hehehe. I wish he was Pau Gasol).
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.
Yeah they're good friends right? I think I read that Gasol was his mentor at some point (maybe he still is)
Also nice handle
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 4:51 PM CST up reply actions
Rubio-Love-Gasol
What do you think?
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.
I would be willing to flip a 5th round draft pick for Pau
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 5:29 PM CST up reply actions
Coming late to discussion but just on Love's contract extension
This is just a baseless guess, but perhaps it is a problem with insurance. I would be very, very surprised if they could insure a 5 year deal, but they could definitely insure a 3 year deal. Kahn and co just didn’t want to run the risk of guaranteeing that money.
Anyway, that’s more baseless speculation. I really do wish he was signed for 5 years though.
6 year deals have been insured for years under the previous CBA.
Love isn’t Amare he should be insurable.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Ah right, that's fair enough
I work in insurance, and it’s very uncommon for insurance policies to last more than three years. Sports insurance is pretty niche, so I don’t know much about it.
The NBA League Insurance is one yr at a time
And the insurer can reject 10 players each yr.(Teams have to have top salaries insured.)
A team can pay for it’s own insurance if a player gets rejected.(Portland is supposed to have done so w/Roy.)
The Insurance carrier can refuse a player one yr and cover him the next and obviously cover him one season and refuse to do so the next,up to 10. One of the “rejects” is Amare this yr,and supposedly he’s going to be so for as long as he plays.
Mavs eyeing Brad Miller? Wolves a contender by March?
Mavs heap praise on Ricky Rubio:
http://www.foxsportssouthwest.com/01/26/12/Mavericks-praise-Minnesotas-Rubio/landing_mavericks.html?blockID=653582&feedID=3577
Ian Mahimni for Miller
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Wow Eric Gordon might actually be available
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I'd LOVE to give Gordon the deal. I'd rather trade now, and schmooze him as he gets used to Love/Rubio
then offer him what he wants. He’s DWade lite.
Well the other aspect of why it's important to DEAL for Gordon
is to get his RFA rights.
I wonder if, given the Hornets recent track record if they would take 2 unprotected picks and then our 2 protected ones so no Williams (meaning we can use Williams to get something else, or keep him)
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
He's also injured
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
your point?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
He's also injured A LOT
not just right now
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
he'd be a pretty good fit
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
do the same for Nic Batum while you're at it
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
He's massively better than Eric Gordon
He’s in his 4th year and at no time has his production dipped below .144 wp48. He’s had 2 seasons over .200. Gordon looks like he played well in Nov, Dec, and Jan of last year:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gordoer01/splits/2011/
We’d have to plug his numbers into a spread sheet for wp48 per month, but it doesn’t look good from a first glance. The more I look at the guy the more worried I’d be about getting him.
Fair enough
Gordon’d be my preference but whatever
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
You mean,
despite the fact that Batum has produced better, you’d prefer Gordon?
Okay.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:45 PM CST up reply actions
I think Gordon is a better fit than Batum
as we have man forwards with varying degrees of quality but we have ultra thin at SG.
Yes.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
yes
and that’s why I’d rather have Gordon
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Fair enough
I’m not sure if he is outright a SF or not, but he certainly has the height of a SF. I just don’t see the Wolves getting Gordon because the Hornets would not trade him to us as it would reduce the value of the draft pick we owe them. Also, I suspect Gordon will be paid far more hansomely than Batum.
We need wing production
at the two and the three. Gordon gives us some production at the two, but Batum gives us better production at the three.
In either case we have a hole to fill.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:50 PM CST up reply actions
My preference for Gordon is also blinded by
the fact that I really like Williams and would rather watch him develop. Which would essentially end if we got Batum.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Are you still
clinging to the notion that Williams can play the three? It’s not happening. Adelman doesn’t want him there, and he’s too big and clumsy to play there.
The Williams-at-SF dream is dead. Move on.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:53 PM CST up reply actions
Ha
He’s a perimeter basketball player. Whatever that means. He’s not a post
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Maybe we should sign Mehmet Okur
to play SF based on that logic
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
If you really believe that to be the case, then go for it.
I’m telling you he’s not a post player. I don’t know who could possibly watch him play basketball and say he is a power forward.
He might not be a small forward in the truest sense of the word, but he is best suited to play on the perimeter and cut to the basket.
Where ever he plays, on whatever team, to be most effective he’s going to be playing on the perimeter.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Positions don't matter on offense
Which is why Mehmet Okur can hang around the perimeter dropping threes on offense and still be a Center that can defend the post. Adleman isn’t playing Derrick Williams as a Small Forward because his offensive skill set can’t handle the responsibilites, it’s because he can’t move his feet fast enough to stay in front of small forwards.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
He's played him there past couple games
in favor of Tolliver who theoretically can move his feet to guard 3’s
Also, I’m again confused what people are watching, but from what I can tell Williams seems to have been better guarding 3’s than 4’s. Parsons was a favorable matchup, but he was much better guarding him than he was when he and Love played the 4 and 5
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
He's played there because our roster is beat up.
Houston destroyed us by going small. They have good guards. Several of them. When they put more of two of them on the court we didn’t have a body healthy enough and fast enough to do anything about it.
No disrespect to D-Will, but he didn’t start over Love, Beasley, Webster or even Johnson. He started next to Love because there wasn’t a chance to play Beasley, Webster or Johnson.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Could have played Tolliver
who supposedly is the best defensive player on the team, right?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Who has made the case
that Tolliver is the team’s best defender?
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:17 PM CST up reply actions
Who is then?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
He's got my vote
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Hard to say.
On post defense likely Darko. Among guards it might well be Rubio. Tolliver does position himself well and takes charges, but I’m in no way going to give him that while Rubio leads the league in steals.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
A good team player.
I’m not giving him any best on team accolades. I believe he’s been nursing a wrist injury unless I’m confusing him with someone else, but yes he started him over Tolliver. I’m not reading too much into it. I will if he’s playing minutes at the 3 when we have other healthy 3s. Choosing to play D-Will out of position instead of play Tolliver out of position is a decision I’d defer to Adelman 100% of the time.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Okay
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
He's a perimeter player?
He’s shooting 42% from the floor and 28% from three. If this is his game, he’s bad at it.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:56 PM CST up reply actions
Yep
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
So you want to keep a bad perimeter player
so we can sign a good shooting guard, when instead, we could try to sign a better perimeter player and a better shooting guard.
Got it.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:00 PM CST up reply actions
For starters
I’d like to give a 20 year old more than 20 games (in which he has produced at a reasonable level .103 WS/48, 14.9 PER/When Batum was 20 he had a .12 WS/48 and a 12 PER)
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
How heavy are those goalposts?
We’re not talking about Batum at 20 vs. Williams at 20. We’re talking about both players now. We have three years of Love and Rubio. We need to capitalize. Maybe Williams in three years will be what Batum is now, but BATUM IS NOW WHAT BATUM IS NOW.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:06 PM CST up reply actions
Problem with your scenario
If Williams improves at the same rate as Batum (I get it, Batum is already good) Williams theoretically would give you the one thing the team really lacks, and something Batum doesn’t really do which is score score score with the ability to do it on his own.
Now, I’m not against getting Batum and keeping Williams (which, with how short this Love deal is, still might not be a bad decision as 3 years from now Williams will still only be 23) but if Batum=the end of Williams in Sota I would like to see us go in a different direction.
I’d rather be wrong about Williams than be right about him but it be on another team.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I'd rather not have to guess.
Batum on the Wolves=more wins now. More wins than with Williams struggling to figure out that he’s not a 3. More wins because he’s a wing scorer on a team that desperately needs wing scoring. More wins because it makes sense to put him on the floor with Rubio and Love at the same time.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
Same line of thinking
would have been to trade Love 3 years ago
and funny, Jefferson and Milsap (who is smaller and worse defensively than Love) are anchoring a playoff team right now.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
"Same line of thinking would have been to trade Love 3 years ago."
How do you figure?
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:23 PM CST up reply actions
You have a “cornerstone” player (I’m not gonna give Jefferson the franchise tag) and a valuable asset that relatively (although not really in the big picture) plays the same position.
Should have moved him to get a quality wing to pair with Jefferson
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Had they done that we might have a quality wing player.
It’d have been the wrong move in retrospect, but as you’ve stated earlier Jefferson is anchoring a playoff team right now.
They actually did make the right decision in keeping Love, but the problem was Jefferson was traded for AR and things yet to be determined.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Or
We’d have a pretty solid trio of Love/Rubio/Jefferson
right?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I think “anchoring” is a pretty apt word for what Jefferson does.
by Ray Williams? on Jan 26, 2012 11:20 PM CST up reply actions
Are you actually going to
get into hypotheticals about if we had kept Al and sent Love away?
I’d rather deal with reality.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
Right
but if we played by your rules we would have traded Love
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
No.
We wouldn’t have.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:45 PM CST up reply actions
Then we should keep Williams
and make it work with our best players
Deal.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
You're on crack.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:47 PM CST up reply actions
It's just good basketball business
Keep your best players. If someone blows the doors down for one trade him, but you got two players that are already awesome. You got another that is one of the youngest players in the league who looks good, why move him? It’s a decision that has “bite you in the ass” written all over it.
We botched the Jefferson/Love era because we thought they couldn’t play together, which was stupid. Awful basketball decision that had we not made it we would have a trio core of Jefferson/Love/Rubio which would A) Be sweet, and B) better than what we had.
We pay a coach 5 million dollars a year to make it work. So let’s make it work.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I don’t think we botched the Al-Love era. I think we traded away the lesser of the two players when it was clear to all involved that he was the lesser of two players.
I further think (speculation here) that the team wouldn’t have been any more successful with Al than they were without. Because he and Love play the same position.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:54 PM CST up reply actions
Your Williams opinion aside
I just could not agree with this take more.
since leaving the Wolves Jefferson has primarily played center
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jeffeal01.html
boom goes the dynamite
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
You couldn't agree with me more?
Meaning you agree with me a lot, and it’s impossible that you could agree with me more?
That’s either good for me, or bad for your English comprehension.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 10:01 PM CST up reply actions
bad for English comprehension
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 26, 2012 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
The tiny little difference
is that Love was better than Jefferson. We kept the better player.
Love is also better than Williams. We should again keep the better player.
Why do we have to decide
between two good players though?
I don’t disagree Love was the better player, but it was only a coaching deficiency that made it so we had to choose between the two.
Should have just kept TWO good players.
Same thinking should apply
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
It also looks like
we can get Batum without giving up Williams…so I see no reason to give up Williams
I like the scenario SnP laid out, trade for Mayo, sign Batum. Williams can be the Lamar Odom for the next couple years and then when Love’s ETO is up he is still only 23 and still a good back up plan if Love leaves
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
I have been laughing a lot in this thread...
There should have been so many
MY POINT STILL STANTS and I made sure to say it to myself every time.
I have a history of admitting I'm wrong
When I’m proven to be wrong.
I think in this thread I went from saying my preference is Gordon to being excited about SnP’s prediction the Wolves go after Batum.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 11:07 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not saying we do.
All I’m saying is that you’re wrong in saying:
but if we played by your rules we would have traded Love
It's the same logic though
and I also wasn’t talking to you.
Kevin Love was good as a rookie, and showed signs that he would be the better player.
But he absolutely didn’t show this ability. It’s a combo of talent and hardwork that has got him to this place.
The logic that says “we should trade Williams because after 15 games I’m worried he and Love can’t play together” is the same line of thinking that would have suggested we should have traded Love for a SG (or even just kept Mayo in the draft) because the fit is better.
we made the correct choice in which player to keep, but my argument is why did we have to make a choice at all? Why not just get players that allow the combo to work? I don’t see the Jazz complaining with their no true center lineup
I’m of the belief we just keep all the good players we can and make it work. I think we screwed up the Jefferson thing because neither is a “true center” and whatever your opinion of Jefferson he is a better basketball player than Darko and we would probably be a stone-cold lock for the playoffs this year with Jefferson on this team
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:59 AM CST up reply actions
There's another term for this
He’s a perimeter basketball player. Whatever that means. He’s not a post
It’s called being a Tweener
No disagreements
that doesn’t mean he is bad for 1.)
and 2.) that doesn’t mean he can’t be effective at the small forward position.
it is what it is. he’s going to have some short comings, especially on certain nights….but if he can score….he can score and as our roster currently stands I don’t know if that is something we can pass up just because he happens to be a “tweener” you get a good defensive 2 with handles (potentially Malcolm Lee’s skill set suggests he could be this 2 guard) and a longer athletic defensive 5 and then just get Williams to buy into a good team defensive system (which it appears he’s willing to do).
I’m for the record not opposed to signing Batum and keeping Williams. By the time Love’s ETO is up Williams will only be 23, I’m not opposed to letting him be the Lamar Odom of this team for a few years and get him in the right shape to play the right position and work on some skills.
But from what I can tell he is most comfortable and effective playing on the perimeter
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Cost.
Our current under producing threes are: Beasley, Johnson and Webster at a combined salary of about $15.5 million for this year.
Our current twos are Ellington and Lee at a cost of $1.65 million this year.
Tolliver has spent time covering the three. Williams has spent some time at the three. Barea and Ridnour have spent a lot of time covering the 2. Johnson and Webster have played a fair amount of 2 (I would argue out of position).
If we are going to get below average production from a position I’d rather it be because we have committed under $2 million to it and have been running a two PG line up than because the $15 plus million we have in the position isn’t productive.
SG has been a bit of a hole in our roster, but what I’d like to see is the $15 million and three roster spots we are spending this year on SF’s and the $14 million and three roster sport we are spending on Centers result in above average starters playing heavy minutes at each position.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I don't know what it would cost to get Batum, but he'd be a nice addition.
Get well Beasley I’d like to see you playing healthy again. It’s been a while. You too Martell.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Gordon may not even play this year
Hornets announced today he’s out for another 4-6 weeks with knee problems. I am about to release him in Fantasy, may be a lost season for the guy.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
Then maybe he'll come cheap
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
In the immortal words of Trey Anastasio
Maybe so, Maybe not
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
by Ebomb on Jan 26, 2012 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ha
We might as well end CH completely on that notion
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Do you know what offer from the Hornets he turned down?
I haven’t read it anywhere, but I would assume it will likely be more expensive than that.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
Well
it wasn’t the max deal
cause the article I read said he turned it down because he could get more from an offer sheet in the off-season….
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Zgoda tweeted today that Batum is the guy to watch
(as I am sure many of you saw)…I do not know what to make of it. It is bizarro world when a stat-geek fave = a Kahn fave.
I'm digging JZ today.
He even had a positive tweet about Pek.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
Think he reads CH for his "inside scoop"
Hmmm… What’s his handle?
STreporter?
Nah, that would be too obvious!
John Doe? Much better!
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
I think it's ZerryJgoda.
I could be wrong, though.
Maybe he and JPete share an account. Between JPete (“Balkan Bulldozer”) and Zach Harper (“Unicorn”) I don’t know who’s mining CH for the best profit at this point.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:17 PM CST up reply actions
Z?
Zebano???
J?
John Doe???
or could it be as insidious as,
B
S
G
0
0
7?
Think about the ways that seemingly normal people, such as myself, can appear innocuous, and in no way a corporate shill.
Who better to mine the collective wisdom of CH than someone who encourages regular grading of our pundits viewpoints of games to be a corporate actor?
Sorry BSG, you’ve been outed!
I’m still working on my unified theory of who JPete is on this site, but once I deal with a certain professor whose insidious stratagems have been a focus of a great deal of my attention recently, I am confident that the plot will become transparent!
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
Oooooooh.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
I'll take that insinuation as a compliment of my writing skills
sadly though I’m a software engineer who spends too much time on his lunch break playing basketball in the corn fields of Iowa (…).
FYI I’m fully aware that I’m a terrible writer, which is why I took CS and Math courses in college.
I asked him if he reads CH
He said that he doesn’t but probably should
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 9:32 PM CST up reply actions
I can guarantee you they want Batum
150%. Also, Mayo is on their radar and they’ve been contacted by Boston about Ray-Ray.
FWIW, here’s the unadjusted per month wp48 raw PROD month by month from Gordon’s last year:
oct: -0.1142385786802
nov: 1.18240265486726
dec: 1.77222748815166
jan: 1.47740366972477
mar: -0.24699043062201
apr: -0.10272300469484
I’m not going to weed through the whole bit:
http://wagesofwins.com/wins-produced/how-to-calculate-wins-produced/
to give the adjusted score, but this gives you a sense of sort of kind of where he’s at in terms of production. He’s hurt a ton, produced for 3 decent months….annnnnnddddd…
i suppose i could build a google spreadsheet with the wp48 formula in it so we could plug and play by month
it would be kind of…well, here’s what the unadjusted formula looks like :
=(I:I*.017)(G:G*.064)((E:E-G:G).032)+((F:F-E:E)-0.034)*-.015)(K:K*.034)*.034)(P:P*-.034)(N:N*.033)(((Q:Q/Z:Z))-.017)+(O:O*.020)
I may be an excel ninja but I think finishing that crosses from nerd to loser.
Here's Batum's month to month from last year
nov- 0.90751327433628
dec- 1.55187203791469
jan- 2.43902752293578
feb- 1.38001913875598
mar- 2.63589743589744
apr- 1.09000469483568
You do to much work for this site
I respect you man.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Mine doesn't
SnP’s does though
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
No it wasn't
you have this belief that I endlessy debate topics and never am willing to let something go (hence the two or three “HIS POINT STILL STANDS” comments in this thread alone) when that is not true at all. When I am proved to be wrong, I tend to drop the topic and admitt I’m wrong.
Don’t believe I have been proven to wrong about Williams yet, which yes is to blame for the 90 post back and forth above, but it’s pretty hard to be proven right or wrong about a player who has been reasonably productive (but nothing off the charts) and only has had 20 games and I believe 300 or so NBA minutes….so the debate will likely go at least through the end of the year baring a trade.
My preference of Gordon/Batum was the wrong take. I do like the idea that spending money on Gordon would better allow us to get our best players on the floor, but Batum is the better player and probably the wiser money spent.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
This message...
…is perfect. Absolutly perfect. Thank you for this.
Now how do I get this coffee out of my keyboard…
by bustaone on Jan 27, 2012 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Request
Please find a different delimiter than the hash mark “-” as I had to look at that three times before I realized there were no negative numbers there.
ooooooh
that’s a contender for replacing the bareback unicorn quote. maybe “toeing the line between nerd and loser”.
by Stop-n-Pop on Jan 26, 2012 10:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Win.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
I feel like the bareback unicorn is HOF-level
but “toeing the line between nerd and loser” is about as apt as it gets around here.
Sad to see the bareback unicorn bit go...
… since it has been my favorite tag line ever. But if we had to drop it, this was the one.
I like the new one
bare-backing a unicorn is way too inside. Don’t you think?
This one is pretty spot on an universal
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Yup
+1
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 27, 2012 2:31 PM CST up reply actions
I vote this
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
Oh man,
Put Batum and Ray on this team and we’re in serious business. Nobody would want anything to do with us in the playoffs.
Or ever.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:25 PM CST up reply actions
Been told by 2 people that they don't think Ray is a good fit
And that they don’t want to give up anything for what they believe would be a rental. More focused on Mayo and Batum.
Makes sense
What I can never tell with advanced stats is… Does Batum take big shots or not? What we need is a guy willing to do some damage in the 4th quarter. Haven’t seen him much myself.
They have two perfectly willing guys to do damage in the 4th (and 3rd, and 2nd, and 1st)
They just need a good player on the wing who can shoot (check), defend (check), rebound (check) and not turn it over (check). Ricky is going to handle the ball. Love will do his thang. Batum needs to run and jump and catch and shoot and rebound and defend.
Not only did you beat me to it, but you did it better
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I respectfully want more than that
I’m going with the much debated closer notion. Not saying we need a low efficiency chucker. But a Spreewell type (Knicks Spree). A fearless warrior.
Hey, we’ve got to dream big!
If there is more than 10 seconds on the clock I want Rubio to have the ball.
Not necessarily to shoot, but isolation isn’t a very good choice most of the time. If there is less than 10 seconds I’m okay with a whole bunch of guys taking the last shot depending on the play drawn up.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I'm not saying iso necessarily
But we sure could use a SG who can deliver the goods at the end of the game.
Rubio will get there, but he’s not a very good shooter yet.
He gets us good shots though...
It would be nice if we had wing players better at making those easy shots he creates, but we don’t need some alpha dog to go one-on-one because it’s the 4th quarter.
No just a superior shooter
Who isn’t afraid to shoot and can create his own shot on occasion.
So pretty much we need a better SG or SF, but more SG
Breaking news!
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 9:51 PM CST up reply actions
I'd be nice, but I'd list it as down the list several spots from
1) consistent 4 quarters of above average wing production
2) consistent defensive rebounding from the center position
3) 12 healthy guys
4) evidence that the organization is capable of obtaining solid rotational players from the draft year over year
I’m not too worried about how we just didn’t have the guy with ice in his veins when we lost that heartbreaker in game 7 of the WCFs when I’m just hoping to see a 50 win team.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I think this argument is like banging your head on the wall at a certain point
Rubio could have a gigantic assist rate with a result of 1.20 ppp on plays with under 10 seconds near the end of a quarter or half and some people would still want something that looks like Melo or Kobe. Kevin Love could have one of the top 10 iso ppp in the league in the “clutch” and he would do so with less than 50% of his shots being assisted and some people would say he can’t create his own shot.
Pretty pretty ponies. Pretty pretty dunks. Pretty pretty between-the-leg dribbles.
I guess there will always be
people who believe in clutch shooting and those that don’t
I’d take Kobe over Love and Rubio though…not Melo…but Kobe, yes.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
"Clutch" doesn't really hold up under the numbers.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:57 PM CST up reply actions
Mmmmmm.
Banana sandwich.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 10:00 PM CST up reply actions
Our...
Banana Sanwiches.
Two of them.
All ours. For at least 2.5 more seasons.
You do realize that evidence points to Melo being the best in the league at this one thing and Kobe being below average
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
You can have Melo then
I won’t fight you for him
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 26, 2012 10:00 PM CST up reply actions
I can't afford him so I'll let the Knicks keep him
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Think you're missing my point
I was simply pondering what the ideal complement to Rubio and Love would be. I don’t know Batum so I was asking what he’s like.
I think/know Love and Rubio are two cornerstone piece that can win a bunch of games. But short of Rubio suddenly turning into Steve Nash as a shooter I think they need a gunner to go with them (I suspect he’ll be more like Rondo/Kidd, nothing wrong with that).
To me the ideal complement would a young Ray Allen or Spreewell. Ya, no duh. Who wouldn’t want them. Nonetheless, that’s the type of players I think are the fit.
Just because I say “we need a clutch shooter” doesn’t mean Love and Rubio sucks. Think you need to lighten up a bit.
And for what it’s worth, the final piece to the ultimate line-up next to Love would be a rim protecting center like your Manther. Assuming he learned how to play. ;-)
I know exactly what you're saying
I didn’t imply that you think that Love and Rubio suck. I don’t know where you got that one.
I think you are pining for something that just doesn’t exist and that no matter how well Love could create his shot, or how well Rubio could create good shots for others in tight situations, or how close Love’s game could look to Melo’s in certain situations, you will call for a “fearless warrior” who will shoot it in the “clutch”. I think this is a made up concept. That’s all.
If it's a made up concept then...
Why does every NBA champion have a fearless gunner on them?
Mavs – Dirk
Lakers – Kobe
Celtics – Ray
Spurs – Manu
Heat – Wade
Come now
Does anyone really think a team is going to get a ring without one of those types of players. It will never happen.
Tres amigos. We need to think big. Then we won’t have to worry about contracts.
One thing to clear up, we don’t need a quote “alpha.” (1rst option, or whatever). Just a guy who’s fearless at crunch time. Maybe one of our guys will turn out to be that. Who knows.
Curry could have been that guy
But then he’d want to be the man and not let Ricky do his thing.
Our bad drafts are a blessing to Ricky. No pressure. 45 minutes of playing time.
Now we just need one more piece. The role players we have will be fine. One scoring wing.
Beasley is that you???
Does anyone really think a team is going to get a ring without one of those types of players.
Even though you didn’t punctuate this as a question, I interpreted it as one. I do think a team is going to get a ring without one of those types of players.
It will never happen.Tell me more, Nostradamus.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 11:14 PM CST up reply actions
Tell me the team that won
Without one. Detroit Pistons? Mavs? That’s about as close as you’ll get in the past 30 years.
Do I need advanced stats to tell me that?
Hello, induction.
The ability to say that a thing has not happened is not the same as to say that thing can not happen.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough
But probably not the best philosophy to build a team with.
The problem is that you're just calling
good players “fearless gunners.”
No, a team will not win the championship without good players.
You're missing the point
You need those players because they’re awesome, not because they’re “clutch” or “a;lskdjf;laksdjf;lakjsdf”. Being “fearless in the clutch” is soooooooo unmeasurable it is meaningless. It could be anything. Hell, it could be a medical condition.
Actually it's very easily measurable
With you own two eyes. Is the guys willing to shoot and make smart plays down the stretch?
Why do you need a formula for it? Just look it’s right there.
KG and Lebron barely have it. That’s why they need their Wade and Ray to play with.
Ah yes...
….the eye test and the confidence placed in it.
You couldn’t manufacture a more unmeasureable test than the eye test. We all see what we want to see to a certain extent.
I really want to believe in "clutch shooting"...
…too bad it doesn’t exist.
Gotta agree with SnP on this one.
Though I have seen some players look very unconfident when shooting at the end of a game *cough*Garnett*cough*.
It's not fair to blame eyes
For the brain’s failings.
by fanslaststand on Jan 27, 2012 6:58 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Love is actually pretty fearless
But in the playoffs, they are going to devise sinister ways to deny him his shot. Rubio will go do his thing and kick it out to…
Anyone?
I have a simple observation… Good teams put the ball in the hands of their best players in their best positions. We just need another player who can shoot and thus open things up for Love and Rubio.
I mean, yeah, I think everyone agrees with that
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
You need those players because they’re awesome, not because they’re "clutch"
This. There’s a fourth-quarter element to it—many games bog down to an extent toward the end of games, and it sure helps to have players that are difficult to defend individually. This has played out on many different Wolves teams over the years, both in terms of our own deficiencies and in watching opposing star players thrive down the stretch of games. It has less (or nothing) to do with “clutch” than it does having players that present matchup problems. There is and always will be an important layer of “one-on-one” in the NBA and the best teams have this covered. Even the ’04 Pistons, the quintessential “did it without a superstar” team, had Prime Rasheed Wallace, who was no slouch operating as a hub in the post, scoring, passing and drawing defenders.
www.punchdrunkwolves.com
@PDWolves
Still need a perimeter scorer
But Love is clutch
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
Yes and No.
My favorite Kevin Love play is when he catches a pass from Rubio and buries a three. Love is such a great shooter and this sort of action is, in my opinion, the most constructive way for him to generate points. I never, ever complain when Love shoots a 3. I wish he’d shoot 7 or 8 per game and permanently remove the head fake from his repertoie.
I have been less impressed by his attempts to take players off the dribble and in the post. I thought he embarrassed himself by forcing this against Millsap, who could defend it pretty easily.
Love is an incredible all-around player, but I think the team could be potentially a lot better if it had somebody, either a wing or true center, who could be fed the ball in situations and get buckets or free throws. Or command a full double team. That is a “Captain Obvious” sort of statement, but it’s my way of saying I don’t necessarily think Rubio + Love + good supporting players is enough to build a contender. If lineup creativity can get Derrick Williams incorporated, or if Mike Beasley returns with a better shooting touch, maybe it can develop from within.
www.punchdrunkwolves.com
@PDWolves
Fair.
I do think Love draws an extra defender, just not when he has the ball — as weird as that sounds.
When he pops out after setting a pick, the threat of that three-pointer bends the whole defense in a way that helps create passing lanes for Ricky.
"fearless in the clutch"
Does sound like a medical condition…
Humans evolved fear for a very good reason! It is useful!
(this post makes no sense)
autistic unicorn?
http://www.davechisholmmusic.com
by davechisholm on Jan 27, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
If there is
Weve got it, thats right ALL OF US.
by WolvesBigTicket on Jan 27, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
Sigh....
I will try to remember to not be completely literal in my writing from now one, so as to avoid leaving you so utterly confused.
To clarify, lest your brain hurts, clutch by definition, is someone who performs well under pressure in spite of the presence of fear.
But wait, how can we measure fear? We can’t! Yikes! So that means it doesn’t exist! It’s a banana sandwich!!!!!!!!!!
Not only can you not measure it
You can’t define it. Is it 5 seconds or 10? Does it exist on every possession or just ones within 5 points? Does it exist when the player shooting the ball knows the guy who is guarding him is stupid? What about if he didn’t have a good meal before the game?
Keep clapping. It’s a made up concept.
"clutch"
is quite easy to define. Many people have come up with perfectly sound definitions… Playoffs, last-shot, last minute within 3…
The problem is that under each of these definitions, analysts failed to find any clutch effect… thus they must not be defining “clutch”, because that assuredly exists.
So yes, clutch can be defined and measured.. the problem is that clutch-truthers will not rest until they find a definition that actually supports their favored mystical attribute… this isn’t going to happen.
Agree with SnP
As someone who is a HUGE baseball advanced stat nerd, the concept of clutch can be losely defined, but the “skill” does not exist.
For example, take the (false) assertion that Joe Mauer is not clutch. This cannot be proven….if “clutch” situations are defined, the sample size is much too small to draw a conclusion. The reason why star players (high volume shooters) appear to be “clutch” is that they have many, many more opportunities to launch shots at the basket. Therefore, they will make shots more often, but not efficiently. And obviously, great players will make shots more often than good (or bad) players, regardless of whether it is a “clutch” situation or not.
Clutch does not exist.
excellent point
I think it does.
I’m fine with banana sandwich loosely meaning someone isn’t a complete disaster when trying to perform at the end of games.
by fanslaststand on Jan 27, 2012 2:30 PM CST up reply actions
Choking?
I think you mean “asdlfkhaposdfhpojhdf”. Same bit. It means a million different things to a million different people and the chances are that if we could agree on a definition we wouldn’t be able to measure it.
Was Nick Anderson...
… just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Honest question. Lots of times I’ve thought that he was. Someone in his shoes was bound by probability to do what he did. Then again…
I think I’m on board with the whole polemic against crunch time performers. At least mostly— I just want most shots taken by good shooters from appropriate places, whether that’s at the beginning, middle, or end of a game, series, or season. At the same time, however, I wonder what happens to our commentary if we start to demean concepts that we can’t measure statistically.
How do we measure “aggressiveness,” “poise,” “tenacity,” “vision,” “basketball IQ,” “anticipation,” “work ethic,” “leadership,” “confidence,” “good at running the offense,” etc.? Or should we drop all of these things, too?
Intangibles are intangibles
cause you can’t measure them.
The Nick Anderson example is good of a guy who was a good shooter (although not overtly great at free-throws roughly a 70% shooter) but what did he miss 4 straight free-throws in the final few minutes?
Eddie Jones was another guy who would score 18 points in the first three quarters and then get a layup in the fourth and call it a day. It’s the seperater.
Kevin Love is killing people in the 4th this year and it’s not something he’s done his entire career, but it feels like every win he’s got like a 10 point fourth quarter or something and that seems to be the next level he’s taken his game
This might just be something where the beef headed former jock who is still calls back to the glory days just doesn’t know what he is talking about….but the game is different when the time is short. Possessions get longer, shots get harder to come by, and the stage gets bigger.
there are players who play well in this stage and those that don’t. can’t prove it with stats, but it’s just basketball. we have two players that appear to play very well in crunch time.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Eventually...
…whatever you want to call whatever shows up in Player X’s production. Increase the sample size and it becomes clearer and clearer.
I am not clutch!
In high pressure sports situation I invariably over think, then fail. Especially when I am less than or equally talented as my opponent.
Sometimes, in the rare situation where I am the vastly superior talent, I might succeed, to immense relief.
by WinTheLottery on Jan 27, 2012 6:46 PM CST up reply actions
Just because
it’s undefinable doesn’t preclude it from existing. All of your points are valid, and I even agree with you, but isn’t it possible some players naturally thrive under pressure more than others? It’s just not something we can measure.
by PhinneasGage on Jan 27, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
Clutch is actually pretty easy to measure in baseball
Just take an actual runs or wins produced measure (WPA or similar) and subtract out a context neutral hitting stat ( wRA, OPS converted to runs) and see the result.
But, like in basketball, there seems to be no correlation year to year to this stat. So, smart analysts generally just ignore it.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Jan 27, 2012 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
(I don't think we disagree)
I just think that something with so many different definitions to so many different people is effectively meaningless.
Yep.
In basketball, the best players get the most chances. More chances = more success. They go hand in hand.
In baseball, Mauer only has 1 postseason AB in ~40 at-bats. But how many times has he batted with RISP, which is something he can’t control? Also, they always lose/get swept in the first round, so he has less at-bats.
Clutch truthers...
…you guys just keep going with the hits today..
I'm glad that winky face is there..
…because I wouldn’t want to have to dodge the poop-storm :-)
I don't believe much in the notion of clutch
but both Rubio and Love have shown themselves to be clutch already. Just watch the Clippers game to see them both come through. We need some players that will help us not dig a huge hole in the 1st and 2nd quarters =)
Yes
I believe in clutch and I believe both Love and Rubio have been excellent in the 4th quarter
still need a perimeter scorer to make something out of nothing. that’s the piece that will take us from where we’re going to greatness.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
Yes, perimeter scorer sounds good
at least, I disagree with you a lot less than I disagree with Rodman99. We just need a good perimeter player. He doesn’t have to be an iso specialist.
Honestly, I think Barea is fine if we need a guy to go out and create a shot.
I also think that Rubio/love pick and roll with 2 or 3 above average shooters will get a better shot at the ends of games than an Eric Gordon ISO, more often than not.
"Pinch-bunters don't have a ton of value, even with the Twins"
by Steven Ellingson on Jan 27, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions
This
Love/Rubio pick and roll/pop probably has a far higher success rate than an iso for almost every player in the game.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
I agree with that
It’s not just end of games though that we need a perimeter scorer to get us going when the offense isn’t working. It’s basketball 102….if the play breaks down it generally breaks down on the perimeter and that’s often when questionable shots happen (volume shooters enter here)
Ricky Rubio is right now our default broken play specialist, which is actually fine but the issue is he is not a legitimate threat to score when he has to score. When no one is expecting it, he’s brilliant….but when it’s clear he has too shoot he gets stuck.
Love is also not the guy to solve this as perimeter scoring is just not his game consistently. Sure he may have a matchup that allows him to do this from time to time, but I’d bet most of the PF’s in the NBA can keep him in check on the wing in a man-to-man situation
The golden ticket is to get a guy who can take the broken play shots/ score with volume when needed (I do believe some volume is nessecary as it’s possible for an opposing team to just have your number defensively….and you’re gonna need the guy who can still get his shot off when the opposing team is having one of those days) but yet he plays within himself most of the time and is a good team offensive player as well.
these guys don’t grow on trees, I admit. I am infatuated with James Harden for a reason as he might be the one of the few wings in the NBA that is like this.
I also have had a good feeling about Williams offensive upside since we drafted him, and it’s one of the reasons I pimp him so much as a guy I really don’t want to trade. I think he does have perimeter scoring upside, but he has also shown a legit willingness to play within the framework of an offense.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
"I also have had a good feeling about Williams offensive upside"
Unfortunately both Williams and Love should play next to the same type of defensive player. And neither of them are it…
I don;t care if Love plays C or PF as long as he plays next to a long, rangy, rim protecting type. Play Love at PF next to a Camby type or at C next to a Ty Thomas type.
We have two of those guys.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Ray would be a perfect fit...
As long as we don’t have to give up Williams for it, not sure how that’s a bad idea. I know he’s old, but I can’t imagine the price tag is high… I’d be OK with a rental. We could win a playoff series with Ray and Batum.
I guess Mayo is an upgrade, but I wouldn’t be all that excited.
A Williams for Batum swap is almost too logical for both teams for it to actually happen.
Yeah I wouldn't want Ray
He’s great now but you never know when he’s going to go completely downhill
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 9:34 PM CST up reply actions
Downhill for Ray
is uphill for 95% of the NBA’s historical players.
Statistics courtesy of Todd Snider.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:44 PM CST up reply actions
Wait a second SnP
Are you saying the Wolves are looking at Mayo and Batum?
I’m very intrigued by that. Can you speculate at all as to how this would be possible?
Memphis wants a pick for Mayo….is it likely they’d take their protected pick for him?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Trade for Mayo...
….and then get his Bird rights (i.e. matching RFA). Decline options on anyone they can to get in mid-to-high-40s range on the cap and either make RFA offer to Batum or work out a sign and trade with Portland.
I think both of these moves are well within their reach. Not too keen on Mayo, but Batum is the business. Kahn has liked him since the very beginning. One of those players who is both long and athletic and actually good.
Wow
I like Mayo enough, especially pairing him with Batum would be a smart move
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Mayo would also be an upgrade this year
Is it possible at this point Blazer would take a role player package of Ridnour/Pek for Batum so we can get his RFA rights as well?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
hey that's my line
I can’t access the trade machine from work but the problem I ran into when looking at that seriously was that we’re sending out $8mil in salary and they’re sending out $2mil. They pretty much have their starters locked up at high salaries and everyone else looks like vet minimum or 2nd round draft choice prices. It may be easiest to do something like Williams for Batum + Smith (salary filler). Which is unfortunate because Portland is one team that could really use both Ridnour and Pek.
Here's an interesting option
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cambyma01.html
is Marcus Camby on the downside of his career?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6nawnuo
I wonder what the Blazer think of him, he’s statistically a lot worse than Pek and a little better than Darko. I’d imagine the Blazer would rather just create 11 million in cap space this season as opposed to trade him to facilitate this trade but essentially:
Minnesota gets: Camby/Batum
Blazers get: Pek/Ridnour/Darko/obligatory draft pick cause I don’t know if the trade is fair
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
...
…I’d imagine the Blazer would rather just create 11 million in cap space this season as opposed to trade him to facilitate this trade…
You had it correct here. There was no reason to continue. Camby’s contract is an asset not an albatross, because it is coming off the books.
I'm working hard vj
to try to make the Wolves better. gotta consider all options
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
Here's another option for the Blazers
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7u4jv5k
instead of Darko, send Beasley’s 7.5 million dollar cap relief, still giving them financial flexibility, giving them an upgrade at Center and Point options they are using (they still starting Felton?)
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Interesting
Pretty high price for the Wolves simply for the right to match Batum offers this summer, though.
Losing the Pek/Ridnour salaries would balance off the additional cap hit a resigned Batum would create, though.
It gets us closer to a balanced roster and you’re paying your starters the top money instead of 4-6 million to 8 different people.
Check out Humdinger TV on YouTube.
http://twitter.com/HumdingerTV
Get them both?
Man I just don’t see how we can do all of this with our crap assets. Are both on contracts or are they going to be FA’s? I’m bad at the business/trade/sign side of things
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 9:53 PM CST up reply actions
Well Mayo
Memphis wants a draft pick. And we ironically have their 2013 pick…..
Batum would be a RFA
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
it's in the absolute realm of possibility
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Hm I think I would be happy with that
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 9:55 PM CST up reply actions
I would too
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Ps
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jeffeal01.html
Mayo’s having a nice resurgence. 15 PER, .1 WS/48, Ortg/Drtg’s right around 100 each
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 26, 2012 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
560
ts%
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 26, 2012 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
Along with those two deals
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6w2et4t
should get this one going as well to round the starting 5 out
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 26, 2012 10:12 PM CST up reply actions
My understanding is Bird rights and ability to match under RFA are different
Bird rights are why we presumably still have at least a bit of an edge over any other team when Love inevitably opts out after three years.
by HowManyFoulsOnShaq? on Jan 27, 2012 7:48 AM CST up reply actions
Its a significant edge.
7.5% raises vs 4.5% and the ability to offer a 5th year.
I can respect that
even if I think it’s a little off base. The guys making $4mil+ this year who aren’t Rubio/Love/Barea/Pek haven’t really produced up to their contract. The cheaper guys like Ellington/Tolliver/Ridnour (only $3.6 mil) seem to be the ones with actual value in my mind.
I really respect the way Pekovich has been playing since getting on the court more but sadly I think he’s one of our very best bargaining chips since few teams are really going to want Johnson/Beasley/Darko. If they find a way to land both Batum and Mayo it would be such an outlier from previous performance that I would have to totally re-evaluate my view of our front office.
WHAT?!
How can you say that Wes/Beasley/Darko is a great line up. In fact we got the #2 pick in the draft with that lineup. Just imagine that team, without Love holding them back, might even be able to snag the #1 pick. Thats worth trading for. %
by WolvesBigTicket on Jan 27, 2012 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
He's great at those explosive dunks down the lane.
He’s not bad otherwise, but I think the reason we are talking about him getting paid is largely a function of him being a 22.3 ppg scorer last year. Never mind that he was far less effective than Kevin Martin who I’ve heard people complain is overpaid at approx $11 million. Some will argue that Gordon is better at defense, but I haven’t been impressed by either at that end.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Gordon seems to be a pretty good man defender
His two best skills (putting the ball in the basket and man defense) are obvious, which is why he’ll get overpaid. I like him, but he’s not someone I’d pursue.
KMart
is also 29 and good at nothing else (imo)
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I'd rather have KMart for the remainder of his contract than be tied to Gordan for 4 at the max.
He’s not anywhere near as productive as Love.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
Gordon is not as productive as Love?
if that’s what you meant I agree with it.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
To respond to your Kmart/Gordon thing
Idk if Gordon is getting the max for starters
2nd) depends on what it takes to get Kmart. If Houston wants cap relief for him and nothing else I’d do it in a second.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
They want more or someone else would have pick him up already.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I'd imagine
Williams is too much for him and we don’t have anything middle ground
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
just wondering, do you know the feeling around the organization about Love's deal? Postive? Confused? Hopeless?
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 9:33 PM CST up reply actions
I don't know if I could pin an organization-wide feeling
But “weird” is the sense I get from most everybody. There were minority owners telling people that Love was going to get his 5 years. I had someone tell me that Kahn told him he wanted to get him 5 years. Then, not so much. Papa Glen, perhaps? Who knows? I’ve learned that everybody has their own slice of the truth in situations like this and you kind of have to make informed guesses about what really happened. I think people think the whole situation is kind of weird.
It's bitterswet
at best
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
haha
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
Damn Taylor
There should be someone above the POBO position, just below Taylor, that makes all of Taylor’s decisions for him
It would help so much…
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 9:54 PM CST up reply actions
Oh that's right, I remember angrily posting about him before I think
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
Interesting Stuff
Batum’s worst season is arguably better than Gordon’s best.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
If you folks insist on injecting reality into this discussion
I’m at a loss for words!
2012 the year of Twolves porcelain extraction?
Pretty sure I read
2.5 months in his entire career. Zach Lowe piece from his SI blog, if I remember right.
Wow Celts have tied it up in the 4th
Down 21 at the half in Orlando.
I didn't even tune in because it looked ugly.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:24 PM CST up reply actions
I haven't watched either
Was just wondering how bad the Celts are this year. And then they go and do this…. up 3 now.
Pretty good game now
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 9:35 PM CST up reply actions
Celts win 91-83.
Weird ending.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 26, 2012 9:52 PM CST up reply actions
Also
HOLY GOD THE MEMPHIS THROWBACK JERSEYS ARE HIDEOUS!
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
I know
THOSE SHORTS
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
Also if these guys are going to do throw backs they need to wear short shorts
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 26, 2012 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
I think the "injury fear" for Love´s 4 year contract is a mask.
Love is not athletic, and he is not injury prone, not at all. The risk of a serious injury is as low as it can be.
Kahn does not want to say the real reasons, because they are strategical reasons you don´t talk about.
After reading about the Princeton Offense Adelman is running, this sentence sticks around in my mind:
The offense is most effective when all of its players are versatile – good at passing, shooting, and mobile.
That´s de definition of Rudy Fernandez, who is more of an SG than Batum (SF),a better passer and shooter, and more available than Batum, who will be a RFA (Portland will match any not poisoned offer) and will be pursued by many teams, including his friend Parker´s SA Spurs. I still would take Batum, if available, for his long arms and defense (he would be very useful against the Kobes and KDs of the NBA), but I don´t think there´s enough of a chance to justify to pass on Rudy, who has not Batum´s defensive skills but has become a pesky defender and is better at stealing the ball and defending the passing lanes.
I haven´t followed Mayo enough, but it seems there are more teams interested. And Rudy was traded for a 2nd round pick, so it should not be very expensive to trade for him, he would love to get an opportunity to be a starter and Ricky might help to recruit him.
I think I´m dying because this is kind of a dream to see Ricky and Rudy playing again together the best basketball I´ve ever seen.
You really underestimate Batum
About the signing thing:
We can also talk Portland into giving him up (that is, trading him here before the deadline) by declaring that we WILL pay him a ton of money, like 8-10M/a year. I really don’t believe they will want to match that offer sheet, especially if they want to have Crash at SF for the next few years. So, by presenting a credible threat, we could give up something like a protected first or a second round pick (maybe 2 2nd rounders) for him. It’s still better for Portland than losing him for nothing or having to have him on a terrible contract with backup minutes.
So, we give up one or two 2nd round picks and get a rental on Batum plus a very nice chance to not have to overvalue him and just pay the market price if we want to.
I really don’t believe San Antonio will want to sign him though, I think it’s their last year, after that they’ll rebuild. Batum is not the kind of player you want when you are starting a rebuilding campaign (it also seems very possible that they will trade Parker for whatever they can get, if they really want to rebuild).
I don´t think I underestimate Batum, at worst I might overestimate Rudy, because my comment was about comparing both players, not about individual performance ;)
Regarding those comparisons, when Rudy and Batum were in Portland most of their teammates said (in video) Rudy was the better passer and better shooter in the whole team (when both Roy and Andre Miller were playing in Portland, go figure). Something did not translate to his games last season, except when Roy was injured, which I think was in part related to his conflict with McMillan and his desire to have a bigger role. Crawford and Felton are having a horrible season with McMillan, and Rudy is flourishing again now in Denver, so there´s a reason to believe it was the system and not the player.
Regarding Batum, I said I´d still would take him over Rudy. The things Rudy does better are passing (much better than Batum), defending de passing lanes (better than Batum), providing energy (Batum is some times a little bit apathetic, but he provides enough energy, just not as much as Rudy) and he can shoot from more different places on court and even create his own shot ocasionally. Batum is a much better defender one on one and can block shots, is a consistent shooter and a good cutter. Batum´s defense makes him very very valuable, and his offense is good enough to make him a competent role player on the other side of the court.
I would cut my Blazers heart in two pieces and would give half to the Wolves if they sign Rudy to play with Ricky. Half Spain, 30% of Europe, 10% of USA would follow me as soon as they start watching them play together.
I'd definitely prefer they look into Fernandez before Mayo
Mayo’s younger, but Fernandez is better. I think he’d be “cheaper” to acquire/sign, as well.
I doubt that
Brewer may be playing well but I highly doubt Denver lets go of Rudy without a substantial return.
Sorry
I was debating your take on
A) Batum not being as good a (if not better) fit than Rudy
B) Batum’s availableness. Portland will probably have to match an offer sheet they won’t want to match (because matching it will kill a lot of cap space for limited production due to PT).
Here’s my take:
What you read about the Princeton is OKish, but i find those characterisations a bit imprecise. So let’s have a closer look. What I will describe here is an optimum (realistic bounded optimum) scenario for the Adelman offense (which is a broad term, the guy’s a genius)
PG
needs: good bbiq, good ball movement, unselfish, good spot-up shooter, good 3pt shooter, careful with the ball, willingness to shoot when needed, shot selection, ball handling
doesn’t necessarily need: extreme court vision, good iso skills, scoring mentality
certainly plus: penetration ability
SG:
needs: good bbiq, good ball movement, unselfish, good spot-up shooter, good off the ball skills, low turnover rate, penetration ability, selective aggression, mobility
doesn’t need: alpha-dog mentality, strong iso skills, being able to create very well off the dribble, volume shooter
SF:
needs: very good off the ball moves, hard cuts, good spot up shooter, high corner 3 shooting pt, good finishing at the rim, careful with the ball
doesn’t need: post skills, isolation, ball handling is not that important (2 dribbles max)
PF/C:
needs: post moves, reliable passer, finding the cutter, outlet pass, spacing (high bbiq), takes care of the ball
By looking at this list, you can see that the Adelman offense usually needs reliable passers (that is: make the extra pass, move the ball, don’t turn it over, don’t take risks), reliable spot-up shooters. The whole point is that with good enough off-the-ball movement and ball movement, there will always be at least a semi-open shot available, and if you are in position, you will be able to get it up without having to recover your balance or whatever shit can happen when trying to create your own shot.
If you check the list, you’ll see that Batum is just the perfect fit. Good off-the-ball, good at spot-up shooting, great length, great defender. He won’t really need to create his own shot in an Adelman offense. He could basically be Battier 2.0. A Battier 2.0 is needed if we want to be contenders, many of the most dominant players in the game are guys that he can defend very well.
I’d be happy with getting both of them anyway.
So what you're saying is Batum is the wrong target
We should be trading for Wallace. =)
I'm not really sure
Wallace would love playing for Adelman again. And I think Batum is the piece that will get us closer to a championship, not Wallace. Because of the price tag.
It was meant to be tounge-in-cheek
because I really don’t think Portland will let go of Wallace but there’s a certain amount of truth to it I guess. I agree with the price tag problem but I think Portland needs a backup PG and a backup big and we have Ridnour + Pek which can’t be dealt for the ultra low salary Batum but would make a decent offer for Wallace. Oh well, lets just offer Williams for Batum + filler and be done with it.
I think
Batum’s trade value is at an all-time low right now, so we won’t need to give up more than Ridnour to get him.
Basically any team can overpay him next summer and Portland doesn’t have the capspace to defend him, so it’s quite possible that they’d be happy to get something useful in return right now.
BTW
I need the %
Is there any way to comment a ? Because using a % as a % really creates havoc. # could be % for example.
So:
I need the #% because I’m not that clever/good enough to detect humor. Except for gay, jewish and policemen jokes. Those are quite obvious.
Honestly there was enough truth to the argument I didn't really want a %
long term I’d rather have Batum, but Wallace would look really really really good with Rubio. If there’s any chance of actually getting Batum for Ridnour we need to do that immediately!
=)
Ty Lawson is prone to injury,
and is currently doubtful due to an ankle injury. Denver has fewer point guards than Portland. I say we trade Ridnour straight up for Rudy right now and throw in a 2nd rounder(and the “assets” from the Lazar Harward deal) if they need it. Denver also has Wilson Chandler and JR Smith ties—could come in later this season to replace Rudy, so this deal makes some sense for them.
We have more than $8 million per year to offer Batum in the offseason once Beasley and Randolph come off the books. We could have both next year if Rudy has fun playing with Rubio. Then, we don’t have to give up any of our young talent. We are not winning any titles with our best players under 23, so patience is very important. Wesley and Derrick will be significantly better next year once they have a full offseason and training camp with Adelmann.
by Imyourhuckleberry on Jan 27, 2012 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
The main difference is
Denver runs out Ty + Miller, both quality PGs.
Portland has Felton (good) + Smith who is doing his best to play at a Flynian skill-level.
Real Madrid sent some people to talk to Rudy in Denver. They want him back in Madrid for next season
1) A couple of days ago, Rudy Fernández received the visit of some Real Madrid representatives (he played as the franchise star in Real Madrid during the lock-out) to convinced him for coming back to Madrid at the end of the NBA season. Real Madrid wants to rebuild the team around Rudy. I think Rudy is now a very unlikely player to land in Minnesota. He will receive good offers from Denver (they’re happy with his performance) and from Real Madrid (they need him bad).
2) I posted some weeks ago the possibility for the Wolves of getting Batum. Batum had to make an extension of his contract and he was moved from the starting SF as a back-up SF. He was a top 10 player in Euroleague during the Lockout. Another issue: the Blazers are beginning to struggle in the West, and as the Knicks and Celtics, they will be willing to make some adjustments in their rosters to move up in the standings as well as for calming down their fans criticism (unless Knicks fans won’t be calm down even having the best unicorn in the world).
by LobosfromMadrid on Jan 27, 2012 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
Love is very athleitc
What player have you been watching?
He had two excellent 2 handed slam dunks in traffic against the Mavericks. That’s athleticism.
Guy is ripped now too. Dude’s an athlete he isn’t the polar bear from his rookie season anymore
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
He's more athletic
than he was in his rookie season, but VERY athletic is a stretch. Outside of Darko and Pek he might be the worst athlete on the team. That’s not a knock on him. If anything it’s a testament to how productive he is.
by PhinneasGage on Jan 27, 2012 11:06 AM CST up reply actions
I think the dude has like a 38 inch verticle or something
strength and conditioning are also factors in athleticism, pure speed is not the only factor.
I would argue Corey Brewer was only a reasonably good athlete, cause while he was fast and could jump high he couldn’t do a whole lot with it since guarding players that were both fast AND strong Brewer’s abilities were rendered useless
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I think Love is athletic
But just plays smart. You don’t have to jump through the roof to make a basket. You might expend energy for a highlight that you could save for down the stretch.
Most of his game is below the rim heavy contact. The bruising nature of his game is going to earn him a living at the FT line.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Jan 27, 2012 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
I think PA reads CH
he just suggested Bealsey for Reddick lol
good call PA. CH was on that dog first
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Aren't we already there?
Who is competing with us? The raptors?
90% of the crap I say on here is sarcastic
by CoffeeJanitor on Jan 27, 2012 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
Once we trade Ridnour for Derozan
they take the lead
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Sidebar
I’m putting together a list of players to plug into the draft board. Here are a few surprises:
Thomas Robinson (top of the draft board right now), Tony Mitchell, Doug McDermott, Mike Moser, and Damien Lilliard were the big surprises. Anyone I should be adding to the list that isn’t on the DX 12 mock draft?
I'm pretty sure you'll get one request
for Kentavious Caldwell-Pope. My curiosity (and annual misguided Spartan suggestion) is Branden Dawson.
Thanks.
DX compared Dawson to Kawhi Leonard. Comparing their college stats, Dawson doesn’t measure up on the rebounding, but his TS% is quite a bit higher. I guess he’s the rare highly recruited player who made his name on defense.
C.J. Wilcox and Tony Wroten are both in the 2013 DX mock but may declare. Same with Andre Roberson at Colorado. Also, I would be curious about Rodney Williams if he isn’t on your list.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
The Girl and I
Watched Tony Wroten go beast mode against a terrible ASU team last night. Guy didn’t shoot a single jumper and just attacked the basket repeatedly. 22 points on 12 shots with 6 rebounds, 4 assists and only 2 turnovers. If he learns how to shoot and avoid careless turnovers, watch out.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
I also have to share this link
Wroten Dunk of the year in NCAA.
Michael Beasley is a Small Forward. Derrick Williams is a Power Forward.
That was fierce.
"Oh my, oh my, oh my. Is that great basketball or what?" --Hubie Brown, Jan. 20, 2012
by Cynical Jason on Jan 27, 2012 6:09 PM CST up reply actions
TONEY WROTEN
is my jam
He’s my choice for the Wolves
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I've watched white twice now
and he is an incredible passer for a big man. He also rebounds extremely well, ball handles and somewhat reminds me of a thicker KG.
Marcus Denmon from Mizzou?
Is that the SG’s name?
Mizzou has a SG that’s pretty good for college, I’m curious how he stacks up for SnP system that I greatly respect
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
He does ok
This is a really bad year for wing players and points. I thought it would be better. You can make a case that a point guard shouldn’t be taken in the first round.
Right now I have Dion Waiters, Will Barton, Harrison Barnes, and Gilchrist as the top 5 wing players, with Quincy Miller and Denmon following that up.
Are you including SG's in that?
or by “wing” do you mean 3s?
Brad Beal and Lamb aren’t in that list….are they not stacking up?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
i grade lead guards, wings, and bigs
that’s all basketball is anymore. beal and lamb are down the list. i added in wroten and he was right up there with waiters. there’s not a really good lead guard in this draft. there are a ton of good bigs.
fascinating
Wroten is my guy, so it’s good to hear he seems to be stacking up. He’s pretty close to James Harden/Derrick Williams territory with being the guy I mention 20 times a thread
Funny that J Lamb isn’t as high on your list as of now…he seems to be the kinda guy that would shine in a metric based assessment of his skills.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Jan 27, 2012 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
Arizona's pg
is pretty solid, but I don’t think he declares
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.














