Wolves/Magic/Lakers- Who Says No?
by HumdingerTV on Jan 29, 2012 12:53 PM CST
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PrintYes, it's yet another "Who Says No?" trade proposal!
The Lakers and Magic are struggling and a Dwight deal is looking even more likely.
David Kahn loves helping to facilitate superstar trades while skimming off the top.
It's not too late for that "singular move" he promised us.
Details after the jump.
Here is the trade that I think would benefit all involved parties.
http://basketball.realgm.com/tradechecker/saved_trade/6008562
Gasol and Redick to Minnesota.
Howard, Hedo and Ridnour to the Lakers.
Bynum, Derrick Williams, Beasley, Darko and Brad Miller to Orlando.
Rational:
The Wolves upgrade at their two weakest positions, move out a couple players they aren't likely to retain this off-season anyways, unload Darko's dour demeanor and balance their roster.
The Lakers land the best player in the trade, upgrade at 3 positions (yes, Hedo is an upgrade at small forward. His contract is awful but his numbers are better than what they are getting right now) and only downgrade at 1 position (power forward would become a bit of an issue for them, but perhaps there is something they can do with the Odom trade exception to recover from that).
The Magic unload their most toxic asset (Hedo's contract), still have a top 3 center, land the #2 pick in last year's draft, get to audition Beasley and decide if they should resign him or recover cap space in the off-season, gain depth at the center position with an inconsistent but functional Darko, and get Brad Miller's off-season cap relief.
Those are the reasons I think it would work.
The Wolves go from having a chance at the playoffs to having a chance at a playoff run this year and for the next 3-4.
The Magic get something for Dwight, go young and get cap relief.
The Lakers get their coveted Dwight Howard and fill some of their gaping holes in their roster.
Who says no?
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Redick went to Duke
He’ll never win an NBA Championship.
I actually think we’d be worse defensively with Pau/Love than Darko/Miller/Love, and we’re winning right now because of our defense. Pau would help, no doubt, but I don’t think we’d be ready for a title run just yet. I am just fine with Darko/Miller/Pek at C right now, and Love will continue to get his 38-40 MPG at PF/C…
If anything, we should be exploring a trade for a good off-guard.
I think we should offer Beasley and Wes for Evan Turner, who I still think could become an above average to good player, and with Rubio and Love, he wouldn’t need to carry the load, just be a 12-14 PPG, 4 Reb/4Ast guy that he’s very capable of. It seems like a great situation for him.
A trade like this...
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6lopyr4
Would make a lot more sense… It seems to make sense for both teams as well… Miller is now healthy, Darko can be counted on to stay healthy, and if we can get 30 minutes a night out of those 2 combined, we can play Love/Tolliver/Randolph the rest of the time. I think Pek has value, and Phi NEEDS a Center. I really think Evan Turner alongside Ricky Rubio would be effective, especially when our Forwards (Love, Williams, Tolliver, and Nocioni (who would be our 4th F) has a career 3PT FG% of over 37%) can all make the long ball. Turner can finish around the basket, and has a nice mid-range game. Rubio can create for others. I really think Phi would value Wes, Pek, and Beasley more than we do right now, because lets face it, if we take those 3 away from our team, we really wouldn’t have a different record (I know Pek has played great the past game or two).
I think all the players involved would benefit greatly by a change of scenery.
That’s WAY overpaying for Evan Turner (who I really like) especially when Pek is coming into his own.
You’re giving them an expiring in Beasley and taking back another year of Nocioni’s terrible contract.
Plus, you’re proposing a trade with a team that is flourishing right now and probably isn’t looking to do a deal.
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You're both wrong...
Hum – the Wolves are not overpaying for Turner. Nocionni’s 2nd year is a team option, so he is essentially an expiring contract. Also, Philly would laugh at this ‘overpaid’ offer. I doubt Philly is as excited about Pek’s last two games as we are.
Mak, you’re wrong because without DWill in the trade, Philly won’t even listen. There is no reason to believe that Philly places any more value in Wes (who would be buried on Philly’s bench), Beasley (poor attitude, shoot first, pot smoking reputation vs. the balanced, d-oriented, selfless philly team rep exemplified by Collins and Iggy), or Pek (2 career double-doubles).
Hum is right about Philly not wanting to mess with a good thing, so an in season trade seems unlikely unless they start having trouble.
yep
people still think Wes and Beasley are assets, and I’m just perplexed by that. A bit too much Wolves koolaid. Both are net negatives.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
Beasley is an expiring...
That’s not a negative, especially when he’s seemingly turned his life around and isn’t an attitude problem. He’s not a negative. His value isn’t very high right now, that’s for sure, but he is not a negative asset.
Wes Johnson- I just don’t know what value he has. The reason I thought he would be valued by PHI is because he could hit the open 3 and projected to be a good shooter. He’s not what he was projected to be so far, but neither is Evan Turner. That being said, he’s not worth Evan Turner straight up, and he probably has minimal value. PHI was interested in him still around draft time, so I’m guessing they’d welcome him. (at the right price)
If Beasley is a negative, Andres Nocioni is a double negative (a triple negative, because a double negative is essentially a positive haha), because he consistently has worse PER’s, he currently isn’t playing much, and he has a worse contract. (than Beasley)
Pek has some value, it’s just unknown how much. He’s getting 4 mil a year, and he’s essentially a good back-up C and probably a below average starting C. If a team has money for that, he’s probably got alright value.
Also, for those saying Phili probably won’t touch anything now that they’re playing good, they are supposedly trying to get Amare Stoudemire right now…
http://www.csnphilly.com/blog/sixers-talk/post/Source-Sixers-inquire-about-Stoudemire?blockID=640460&feedID=694
Now, I don’t think that’s very likely, but I do think Phili would be willing to make a smaller trade.
Pek is turning into a good player
He will have some value if he keeps improving. But Beasley has been exposed for quite some time now. Unless he’s willing to sign a FA deal for less than he currently makes, he’s not worth a roster spot. To ANY team.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
I know what you're saying....
I would, though, be totally fine with the wolves signing him to a 4 year/20 mil deal… 5 mil a year to be our 6th man. If he embraces that role, which he might, he could be the 6th man of the year and work his way into the starting line-up, either here or somewhere else.
Mike Beasley has changed in the past 18 months. He’s trying on the defensive end. He’s more selective with his shot, and he’s aggressively pursuing rebounds now. I think he underwent a major attitude adjustment this off-season, and we all know he has talent.
I like the thought
I’m just not sure I pull the trigger. The way I look at it the Wolves Window to really compete is probably 2-3 years away. The signs of slippage within Pau would slightly concern me. This says nothing about how well- he would do paired with Love. I’m not so sure I don’t prefer a Love/D-Will combo at the 4-5 to a Love/Gasol Combo. While I realize we love Reddick. I’m not sure if being an adequate NBA 2G (He’s not better then a 4-5Best Starter on a Championship Contender (Forgive me for those arbitary Bill Simmons Defintions). This trade would probably make me think then lean no.
"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"
Surpised you aren't more bullish on Redick...
Redick Stats: Per of 17, TS .587, WP/48 of .183, plus defender, and his game fits perfectly next to Rubio.
And how bout Gasol running the PnR with Rubio with Redick and Love spreading the floor. That team is a top 4 team in the west for the next 3 years.
The artist formally known as Shane Heal, but FORMERLY known as Blakeley
In this situation and other trade scenarios involving Ridnour: the Wolves’ two options for backup PG are JJ and Lee correct? Seems like they’d need some healthy insurance there before trading Ridnour.
by Jordan Seiffert on Jan 29, 2012 1:23 PM CST reply actions
I think where you and I differ
Is the long-term value of D-Will. I’m trying to be careful in not overvaluing young assests. But I like what D-Will could add to either the mix in a few years or via a Trade. My thinking basically boils down to who helps this team more in 3 years. My answer would be D-Will.
"Vote Ailuridae for Wolves GM"
orlando says no
between getting bynum and gasol, or bynum and williams + cap space + darko’s horrible contract (specially to play behind bynum), i’m pretty sure ottis smith goes with the former.
if the lakers were to surrender those two for dwight the deal would already be in the works between lakers and magic, no need to involve a third team for anything other than picks.
also, the magic can get much more than williams and cap space for gasol, he is still a top5 big man in the league, houston was offering 3 great pieces for him(how good would the magic be with jameer/dragic, martin, richardson, scola, bynum, that’s as much as denver go for melo), and i would think a team like philly or charlotte would do the same, this year or during the offseason.
sure the lakers would get ridnour if the twolves were involved, but they need a young athletic defender to pair with kobe, not an slightly improved version of steve blake. can’t see how that makes a difference in this megadeal.
it does surprise me to see people rating darko so high and not jumping at the opportunity of getting another all-star that would fit perfectly in adelman’s system.
Interesting thought on the Bynum/Gasol combo.
My assumption was that with Miami and Chicago staring them down, the Magic are more interested in going young than trying to win now. And they’ve proven they are a free agent destination.
So, I figured Bynum/Williams would be preferable so they can make a run at someone like Gordon (or even Batum) this off-season.
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problem is
miami and chicago aren’t old teams, their windows are 4-5 years if they play it smart (get rid of boozer and wade for younger pieces in 2-3 seasons).
orlando won’t be horrible with a healthy bynum and a couple of decent pieces in the weak east. (7-8 seed almost by default) so no high draft picks, meaning mediocrity for a long time, which is the worst thing that can happen to a team.
to me, for that very reason the nets offer makes the most sense, tons of picks, young pieces and huge flexibility. heck, the nets might be so afraid of losing both dwight and deron to dallas that they may throw marshon brooks in there with lopez and picks.
if you’re going to rebuild, you better do it all or nothing and through the draft so you can get the next big star.
also the lakers are not convinced on howard and kobe and that’s it scenario, i can’t say i blame them.
What position does Williams play?
It seems that if everyone really believes that Williams will be a PF as opposed to a SF, then I could see this deal like this going down. A Gasol-Love-Pekovic-Tolliver rotation on the front line is really strong. If you believe in ws/48, I think we would go from fringe playoff team to a fourth or fifth seed this year, with Gasol sporting a .173 / 48 and Redick around 0.183 / 48.
If Williams is really a SF, which I tend to believe, then I think both the Wolves and Magic say no. For the Magic, the reasons by k*ntraidor above. For the Wolves, because they would be trading away a good SF prospect on a rookie contract for a high-priced vet whose commitment to remaining in the game long-term is questionable. To the extent we want to continue developing Pek, bringing in Gasol would slow that. Gasol also locks-in salary space which we may be able to efficiently use next summer (see Zgoda’s Sunday Insider from today).
by Mike B. on Jan 29, 2012 1:52 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
woah, I feel like I'm commenting on my self ...
Building a Flock. To God be the Glory. @mikecboosalisii - follow me homies!
by Michael C. Boosalis II on Jan 29, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
Mike B.- this is a very well-reasoned for/against. I am a win share advocate, and the 20 game small-sample size slippage from Gasol this year doesn’t worry me.
It was be a gigantic upgrade at two positions.
Williams needs to show me that he can hit the 3 consistently and dribble drive past someone other than Matt Bonner before I consider him a 3.
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He's been driving by almost everyone
He has had some issues finishing though.
But driving has not been the issue
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Follow-up Thoughts
Some assumptions I didn’t put in the original post.
Team needs…
I assume that Orlando’s objective would be to get the best individual player with somewhat of a long-term contract that they can. I think Bynum qualifies for this. I haven’t seen any other player’s name mentioned that outperforms him.
I’m also assuming that they would trade Dwight as a rebuilding move, thus wanting cap room and young players. Otherwise, why not just hang on to Dwight and try to make it work.
I assumed the Lakers objective in this situation is to obtain a superstar for Kobe’s inevitable decline.
Dwight qualifies for this, and there really is no way they can accomplish it with just Bynum or just Pau.
The biggest leap in this trade, I feel, is the idea that Kahn would be willing to jettison one of his picks this early (as with Flynn, you can see he tends to hang on to them too long) and would pay Pau the big salary to win now.
Something I neglected to point out- Pau and Ricky have natural chemistry and I really think that if he’s going to leave La La Land (which he thought was happening once already in the aborted CP3 trade) I think he’d be a lot happier with the situation if it was to a team with a good friend of his and a situation with a good coach and high playoff potential.
In fact, I would speculate that part of the dip in Pau’s production could be attributed to the bad vibes created by that failed trade. That’s going to mess up anyone’s game.
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pau + rubio pnr
is absolutely unstoppable if you have 3 other shooters surrounding them on the court (i know this because the spanish national team has 2 other shooters and marc gasol and still works wonderfully).
pau+love is the combo that could propel this team though, 2 high bbiq offensive rebounders with range? that’s not something you see everyday, could be great because of psynergy, could be bad because of overlapping skill-sets, i would pay to see it though.
Its funny
These trades keep coming up and it’s always minnesota who would say no. Unless were getting Howard or an excellent SG/SF there’s no need to make any trades. The team is finally in a good position to compete for a playoff spot this year and be even better next year.
Which I don't understand at all...
A trade like this or the New Orleans trade that brings back Okafor and Gordon are no brainers for the Wolves.
Looking at what the Wolves give up –
Miller – expiring trade filler who’s played zero minutes and will likely retire at end of year.
Darko – His value is little and less. More often a net negative.
Beasley – Expiring contract, inefficient high volume shooter, poor d, prevented from playing his best position by Love (I actually really like Beasley, but he’s a terrible fit on this team).
Ridnour – competent BACKUP pg, decent shooter, terrible D. Reddick is a significant upgrade over Ridnour at the 2, and I’m very willing to give the 10 minutes of backup PG time toa healthy Berea or a D-League PG.
DWill – has real value called potential, but needs time to develop. Also suffers same ailment as Beasley – stuck behind Love on depth chart.
If we could turn these 5 current backups/bench fillers into 2 competent starting players, you do it!
Lakers say no...
They already said no around giving up both Gasol and Bynum for Dwight. So, why would they also want to take back Hedo’s contract AND get a guy (Ridnour) who is redundant with a number of other guys they already have (Blake and Fisher for example). No chance they do it.
These are my thoughts as well...
Although if the trade can be worked with Hedo going to MN maybe they would agree.
The artist formally known as Shane Heal, but FORMERLY known as Blakeley
I say yes with reservation
Gasol turns 32 this year so that worries me. We will be very nice this year however with a very much needed 3rd piece. I like the idea of trading a combo of Beas and D-Will for a very good veteran to help this team. We could actually do damage in the playoffs. However I don’t think LA gives up Bynum and Gasol for Howard cause they want to win this year and they probably at least need Gasol.
by Doug West Domination!!! on Jan 29, 2012 3:29 PM CST reply actions
Twitter sent me here
I think it’s a workable trade for all parties. The hard link is Orlando. They have to resign themselves to losing Howard for this to happen and I don’t think they’re there yet.
In my opinion, unless we think Derrick Williams is a star, we need to be looking to trade him sooner rather than later. He’ll never get the amount of time at the 4 he’ll need with Love around, and if he’s not a game-changer, then we already have enough good-but-not-special big men like Randolph, Tolliver, and Pekovic to fill in around Love. Turn an asset whose potential can never be maximized for us into one that can: a C, a SG, or a SF. This is a great trade.
My twitter: www.twitter.com/HogeJ
You're crazy though if you think MN would or should say no...
This trade is a slam dunk for the Wolves. Picking up Pau AND Redick for D-Will, Ridnour, and a bucket of crap.
The artist formally known as Shane Heal, but FORMERLY known as Blakeley
at a glance I voted no
I would like to get something younger than Gasol for our only real trade asset (Williams). 32 isn’t THAT old though, so I wouldn’t be upset or anything. It would make the team a lot better overnight. And Redick is a pretty good player himself. Gasol is flat out great. Would rather get Eric Gordon or maybe even Batum for Williams, but probably not realistic.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
Lakers say no
They are not giving up two All Star level bigs for one All Star big + role players. Howard is better, but not that much better.
I could see a smaller deal where the Wolves facilitate w/o Pau & Williams involved and get Reddick.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
shouldn't all "Who Says No?" posts
automatically include an option of Stern?
btw a 22% approval rate for a suggested trade must be some sort of record around here. I can’t recall a time when a trade wasn’t shot down by 95% of the voters.
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