Biyombo!!!
by Bartzy on Feb 13, 2012 1:02 PM CST
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PrintAlright guys, like many of you, I too have been looking at ways the Wolves could improve this roster, to take us to that next level. So I thought I would throw a trade idea at you guys, to get some of your thoughts. So after the jump, we will look at a trade that I think could be made this offseason.
Wolves Get: Bismack Biyombo and DeSagana Diop
Bobcats Get: Nikola Pekovic and Wes Johnson
Wolves do it because they get a center for the future that fits great with our 2 building blocks.
Bobcats do it because they are currently set to pick first in this upcoming draft, and the top player is Kentucky's PF Anthony Davis. Davis' skillset is alot like Biyombo's, whereas Pek is more of an offensive threat, hell, an efficient, offensive monster. So they would be set in the paint with a great combo for years.
Look, I love PEEEEEKKKK! as much as everyone else, but the reality is, he is not a great fit next to Love. This trade gives both teams an ideal combo in the paint for years to come. So what do you think? I honestly don't know very much about Diop, so it's hard for me to say anything about him. If Pek continues to play at the level he has been, do you think we aren't getting enough, and may need a draft pick coming our way?
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Pekovic is playing too well to consider this.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
by Airete on Feb 13, 2012 1:14 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
I agree with this
but he is still not a good compliment to Love. They are both high usage bigs that are limited defensively.
That being said
I think it is pretty telling when you have Andrew Bynum (2nd best Center in the league?) coming out saying thank god we took Pek out in the 4th quarter against them a few weeks back. With a little bit of work, I feel he can become a quality defender, though he will never block shots at very impressive clip. So idk, maybe he is our guy. This is all just speculation for fun.
We've played against some quality bigs since Pek has been starting
and none of them have lit us up in the post, so that indicates that Pek is at least a solid man-defender. He played pretty good help defense against the Knicks, too. At Posting and Toasting they commented on how Lin’s penetration wasn’t as successful that night because he kept running into Pek’s chest (and then they made the comment that every part of Pek is his chest—even his head).
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 13, 2012 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Not interested......
Never bought in the Biyombo hype
Except
He has hands of stone. It’s always going to hinder his offense. Ask Kwame Brown how easy it is to overcome having bad hands.
Epistemic closure means never having to admit you're wrong.
by Spouting Opinions on Feb 14, 2012 8:07 AM CST up reply actions
I did buy into the Biyombo hype,
and as crazy as I am about Pek, before this season I would have been happy to have Biyombo start next to Love with Pek coming off the bench. But Pek’s production is coming close to matching my enthusiasm for his game, so I wouldn’t move Pek right now for just about anyone. Certainly not for anyone who’s availible.
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 13, 2012 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
Biyombo and Love starting
with Pek off the bench would be an ideal 3 big rotation.
I don't think CHA gives up on Biyombo yet.
And I don’t think they can assume they’re getting the #1 pick.
Well...
I was thinking it would be after the lottery, maybe a draft day trade. And do you think it would be good for them to run out there with Davis and Biyombo on the floor at the same time?
How often does the team the NBA owns end up with the worst record?
I’d raise those odds if I were you….
"But this one goes to eleven..."
No
Pek is a mini shaq. He is a center we havent seen in the NBA for a while. His brute strength and force causes so much chaos in the paint. I think he is a very complimentary player with Love.
Biyombo wont even warrant any help D. Pek is now getting different looks because teams are realizing that not a lot of centers can stop this guy. Not to mention Pek can draw a lot of fouls if timberwolves keep going to him throughout the game. Also he is a relatively good free throw shooter for a big man.
If your goal is to score more points than your opponent, Pek is your man.
If your goal is for your opponents to score less points than you, you take Biyombo.
And yes, there is a large difference between those 2 statements.
by Simitar on Feb 13, 2012 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Pek
plays good D. I havent seen any center against Pek having a good offensive game. He draws fouls.
Pek is good on O and D. Biyombo is only good on the D. Rather have Pek since he draws fouls as well, and can make free throws.
The most important defensive thing a Center does isn;t stop his own man.
Especially because there are so few dominant scoring Centers in the league. Its providing help defense – especially on guards that get by their man.
Pek is like Love – he’s a good positional defender using strength and smarts. But neither guy is any kind of help defender/rim protector or someone that can chase outside shooting bigs down on the perimeter.
Pek and Love are a great offensive combination – they aren’t a good defensive one.
And
in a matchup with an outside shooting big, and a dominant interior presence, always give me the latter. When has an outside shooting center been better in the long run than an interior presence who can draw fouls and make free throws?
What outside shooting big are you talking about?
I’m saying its nice to have a guy who can get out and defend those guys. For example, playing against POR, Biyombo is the perfect guy to put on Aldridge. Neither Love or Pek are going to slow him down much.
I dont think
Love would do that bad against Aldridge. And besides, I doubt Biyombo can “slow him down much” either. What proof do you have that Biyombo can slow down Aldridge?
And what would happen in the offensive end? Aldridge or whoever is guarding Biyombo would be free to cheat off him and clog up the lane against the twolves.
Love has always struggled against guys like Aldridge.
They are too long and athletic for him to guard. Biyombo has the length, strength and quickness to defend him.
This is true.
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 12:45 AM CST up reply actions
He cant do
anything on offense. As i said, teams are going to cheat off him, and clog the lane which is terrible for our offense.
And thats just speculation that Biyombo can guard Aldridge. I would say Aldridge is good enough to score at least his average against Biyombo because he has the length, strength, and athleticism to play better offense against a good defense.
And
Love would be on Aldridge not Pek…
Why would Pek ever be asked to guard Aldridge a PF?
Because Aldridge has played over 1/3 of his minutes at C this year.
And its about match-ups. We don’t always have our 5 guard their 5 and our 4 guard their 4.
Yeah
but we aren’t going to assign Pek on Aldridge. We’ll put our 4 on him, and make a switch.
No NBA coach is going to put Pek on Aldridge
Camby hasn't attempted a three all season,
and his TS% is .362. Yep, Pek should guard Camby.
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 12:48 AM CST up reply actions
And
Pek is absolutely going to destroy camby on offense
Plus how do we think Aldridge is gonna do guarding Pek?
Both would have to foul to stop the other, both probably end up in foul trouble. No way Portland tries to run LMA out against Pek. They don’t wanna see it anymore than we do.
by Bad News Wolves on Feb 14, 2012 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
No. They don't.
Because they are a very different mindset and philosophy.
Trying to outscore your opponent leads to things like Nellie-ball or Paul Westhead. But if you want to really be a good team, the key is not how many points you score as much as how few your opponent scores. Again, a different thing.
I’m not saying you don’t need to have offense, because you do. I’ll take my chances to go on a meaningful playoff run with a team designed to win games 92-87 over a team designed to win 110-105.
If you score more points than your opponent, then they've also scored less than you.
I just don’t understand why you’d think it’s better to win 92-87 than 110-105. That’s the same thing.
Because one is an offensive philosophy and one is a defensive one.
There is a very different mindset involved in teams that focus on scoring as opposed to teams that focus on stopping their opponent from scoring.
Defensive teams win titles in the NBA. Offensive teams are fun to watch, but they flame out in the Playoffs. Part of that is because offense comes and goes. Some games you are going to shoot well, some you won’t, but defense is much more of a constant. Offense is percentages, defense is effort.
"Defensive teams win titles in the NBA."
No, good teams win titles in the NBA. There isn’t evidence to suggest that one half of the game is more important than the other.
The 2000-01 Lakers
Were the last team to finish outside of the Top 9 in defense to win a title in over 15 years. 13 of the last 25 champions have been a Top 3 defense.
Nellie Ball, The D’Antonni offense, The Westhead debacle, the Run and Shoot. Teams that are built on offensive philosophies just don’t win it all. Dallas last year is a great example of a team that finally embraced defense and won a title – and then let their best defender leave…
Again, I’m not saying you can win without offense. Most title teams had good balance (although the O ratings were generally lower than the D Ratings).
But its really not as simple as “the team that scores the most points wins”. I mean, yes, that is what happens obviously, but how you get to that point makes a BIG difference. You’re going to win more games shutting down your opponent than you will making things a track meet.
like he said, good teams win
how many of the last 25 teams were less than a top 10 offense?
I watch a lot of NBA
But I haven’t seen one second or one highlight of Biyombo this season.
Maybe I’ll see something Wednesday as I’ll be at the Wovles/Bobcats game.
While I like BB Pek is playing way too well to do this right now.
Long term… maybe it’s the answer but right now Biyombo has Pek’s 2011 problem of being unable to control his fouls.
Why
is Pek not the long term answer? This is only his second year in the NBA. This is not a fluke imo. He’s not doing anything special, he is just being too physical and strong for a lot of defenders.
I mostly agree, but I could see a Tyson Chandler who contests more shots being more useful
if we could replace Pek’s efficient scoring with a couple of decent wings. I don’t really think Pek is a bad defender so much as he’s not a good help defender.
I think
a Chalndler is more useful if you have a lot of great shooters like the knicks. Or Perkins on Celtics and Thunder.
I believe a dominant center based on brute strength and size with a great shooting touch is a rare commodity, and twolves would be smart to keep him.
I guess in theory
I’d be down trying to get like BB and Gerald Henderson from CHA
in conjunction with a separate move like
Pek and Ridnour to POR for Batum and Eliot Williams
then you kinda spread everything around and save the Derrick Williams trading chip in the chance James Harden becomes available and maybe Elliot Williams or Henderson blows up enough where you could start to build a package for Harden
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
If you keep trying to trade Pek
he’s going to come to your house and beat you to death with your couch. Cushions first.
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 12:49 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I don't know that I want to trade Pek
certainly not for Biyombo
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I'm a big Biyombo fan and I don't want to trade Pek for him.
I want to get Biyombo here as the 3rd big to play with Love and Pek.
If Pek can keep giving the team 15 & 10
With an excellent FG% and FT%, I’d be pretty reluctant to trade him. The lesson Adelman has taught me this year is that effective team defense can occur with sub-optimal defenders. Very tough to find efficient post scoring though. Without Pek, this team has almost no low post presence in the paint.
"It's tough to make predictions, especially about the future." -- Yogi Berra
You want to trade the third best player on our team?
for a guy who can’t stay on the court cause he fouls too much and is a nightmare offensively?
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
The shoe is on the other foot now friend!
Hahahaha
:-)
by bustaone on Feb 13, 2012 4:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Darko and Wes Johnson for Biyombo and Desegana ...
Building a Flock. To God be the Glory. @mikecboosalisii - follow me homies!
by Michael C. Boosalis II on Feb 13, 2012 3:51 PM CST up reply actions
I dont think we would even need to give up that much
The Bobcats are downright awful and we could use Wes, maybe Beas if they want and the MEM and UTA picks to get him. We dont need the picks and he would have a much better learning opportunity here. I dont want to get tied into any terrible deals though so I would be a little hesitant since we need a 2 guard more.
Fact is they may need to hit reset again as Kemba is playing pretty poorly and BB was way to raw for a team that bad. We could give them youth and more importantly picks as they are going to need all the help they can get.
by WolvesBigTicket on Feb 13, 2012 4:08 PM CST reply actions
If we are working a trade with Charlotte
we should
A) not trade Pekavic
and
B) We should try and get Gerald Henderson. He’s not great but he’s basiclaly an average NBA player who plays the SG position good enough, has good size and athleticism. Would be a nice blood clotting while we try to figure out a long term soloution.
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7vtapvn
this trade won’t happen, but CHA is a team I think Beasley might have inflated value with. Scoring inept, you might have to work that trade around but the essence of it might not be too off base
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Get Biyombo
But keep Pek. Those two + Love would make a great 3 man rotation at the 4/5. Biyombo is athletic enough to guard the 4, so you can have Pek and Biyombo on the floor at the same time.
What am I missing here?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/biyombi01.html
so you want us to trade Derrick Williams for a guy with a 10 PER and a .022 WS/48. Also BB has a 105 Drtg which is worse than Williams’…..which means Williams is the better defender and that was the only thing Biyombo was supposed to be able to do….really the only impressive stat is the 6% block rate
He’s an intriguing talent for sure. But he was in no way shape or form worthy of the 2nd pick in the draft
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
oh okay good :)
no I totally get your point. And especially the Brooks one is valid….I still don’t know what everyone sees in BB outside of unquantifiable potential….which I’m told doesn’t exist when it pertains to the Beasley’s of the world, but it some how does when it pertains to Biyombo
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
my gut says he will be Ben Wallace
And I like our DWill just fine, as a PF. If Love wasnt on this team (!), Williams might be having a monster year.
DRtg
You’re using it wrong I think. Defense is a team concept correct? A lot of baskets are very difficult to assign given how many shots come from pnr’s, missed help rotations, etc. The Bobcats are one of the worst defensive teams in the league. On bad defensive teams nobody should be expected to have a good DRtg because on average all those miscellaneous baskets due to bad team defense will be spread amongst the players. Biyombo’s 105 DRtg is leading the team he’s on, and the gap between the top 3 guys (all PF/C’s) and the rest of the team shows there are roughly 3 decent defenders on Charlotte.
For comparison’s sake, look at the Wolves from last year vs the Wolves from this year. Darko led the Wolves last year with a 107 DRtg. This year every player except Brad Miller has a DRtg of better than 107. Did every single player on the Wolves’ roster improve their defense dramatically over the offseason? Or has their team defense improved dramatically due to a myriad of reasons?
My point is Biyombo’s already a solid defender who is stuck on a team with a bad system and terrible perimeter defenders. When using DRtg, please consider the context.
WS/48, PER and other stats that show quality basketball being played are also very poor by BB
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
It is far easier to accurately track offensive stats, and presently Biyombo is terrible offensively.
However, to say Derrick Williams is a better defensive player due to DRtg is preposterous given the differences of their situations. The Wolves have 12 players with a higher DRtg than Biyombo. Does that mean our 12th best defender (according to DRtg, Ellington) is a better defender than every single player on the Bobcats’ roster? There’s a lot of context that goes into numbers. That context should be observed before the numbers are spouted.
Also, his numbers are awful offensively, yes. However, we knew of a couple salvageable skills Biyombo had before the draft. He was great in Spain as a roll man on the PnR. So far this year he’s had 8 opportunities as the roll man (small sample size theater, he’s 1/6 with 2 fouls drawn). We knew he could rebound offensively. While he has an underwhelming 8.8 OREB%, he’s 2nd on his team, and the leader of the team has a whopping 10.4 (Diop… whose OR numbers under Silas are the worst of his career since the early 2000s). We knew he could get to the line. He’s proven he can do that (converting is another story). So of his literal 3 allegedly positive offensive skills, he’s playing for a coach who smothers 2 of them. Under Adelman (whose teams are excellent on the PnR and whose bigs tend to have pretty good OREB numbers) he wouldn’t turn into a savior, but his PER could easily reach a respectable 12-14 range from the 10ish he’s at right now. Also considering half of WS/48 is essentially defined by DRtg, and we’ve already established the fallacy of an individual’s DRtg amongst a team of shit, his WS/48 would almost literally improve to respectable levels if he was simply traded to the Wolves (or any team with better surroundings) left a Manther-sized turds in the lane on defense for Dr. Defecate to study, and subbed out.
All that being said, I wouldn’t give up Pek for him. But don’t just throw all-encompassing numbers at the wall without considering what they encompass.
by BeasleBong on Feb 14, 2012 2:05 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
You have to be careful with mead.
It’s easy to make and easy to make poorly. It’s also easy to make well.
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 3:35 AM CST up reply actions
We have friends who make it
They’re kind of dorky and they’re big into the whole live sustainably/local bit and they gave me a bottle of some 5 year old stuff they were super proud of. It was the last alcoholic beverage I had. That was in December. I’ve never had a headache like that before in my life and it has completely destroyed my nose/taste for beer/alcohol. It sucks. I love beer. Thanks to the Renaissance Ale (or whatever the hell they call it) I can’t even smell the stuff anymore.
by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 14, 2012 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's funny
Some friends of mine were getting married 12-15 years ago, and one of them brewed with me in grad school. They wanted to do a mead toast instead of a champagne toast, so we made maybe 15-20 gallons of the stuff and left Grolsch bottles of it at every table for the reception.
It was, hands down, the craziest wedding reception I’ve ever been to, in a good way. It didn’t hurt that they had Two-Hearted Ale on tap, either. I haven’t had much mead since, and I don’t plan to.
by Madison Dan on Feb 14, 2012 10:43 AM CST up reply actions
Here's really what I'm getting at
I don’t deny Biyombo has potential, because I don’t deny potential. I can look at a guy who is raw and see what he could be and I can absolutely see that in Biyombo.
But it does indeed drive me nuts when people scoff at my interest in players with potential but yet salivate over Biyombo…who is all potential right now
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
The main difference between Beasley and Biyombo
Is that BB’s potential lies in defense, specifically blocks and rebounds. He currently leads his team in DRtg, BLK% (6.5%) and TRB% (14.8) his main drawbacks are stone hands (he was expected to be very raw offensively and this doesn’t impact his strengths too much) and 4.9PF/36 which clearly impacts his ability to stay on the court and be effective.
Beasley on the other hand was an offensive dynamo in college who scored very efficiently by driving and overpowering people and collected rebounds. In the NBA, he has had an eFG% of 49% his rookie year and hasn’t topped 47% since. His TRB% started at 13% and got worse (moving to SF will hurt that) and his TOV% has gone from 10% and climbed to 13%. In short he started off looking like a promising rookie (decent player could get better, nowhere near what a Rubio or Irving or Griffen are doing) and got worse for 2.
If you want to talk about DWill’s potential then sure there’s some but right now it’s not as an outside shooter because he doesn’t have that, it’s as a big whose cutting or rolling and getting set up near the rim. He’s shown some tools with his ball handling but can’t finish so he has a long way to go IMO and isn’t the player we’re looking for. Could he explode? it’s possible, it’s more likely IMO he becomes a good but not great player so I want to move him while he has tons of hype for a piece that we do need.
meh not sure what exactly you’re worrying about but BB has elite defensive stats and projects as an elite defender while DWill / Beas projected as elite offensive players but haven’t shown elite level production.
And again, at some point, potential just becomes another word for "disappointment".
If after 3+ years and 7000+ minutes, you are still justifying a player because he has potential, maybe he doesn’t…
Especially compared to a guy who has played less than 30 games and 400 minutes.
thank you but I clearly didn't proofread =)
I meant to start out by saying that BB is showing elite level skills where they were projected (defense) and Beas showed a decent year on offense but regressed for two years. There are a few other mistakes in there but apparently people can struggle through it.
One other thing.
Sometimes it is the likelihood of the potential that matters.
While it’s still a long shot that Bismack wins DPOY or is multi-year all defensive team player it’s not a long shot that he’ll be a defensive center with a 10 year career. He’s starting as a 19 year old rookie and posting good rebounding, block shot and DRtg (compared to his team on this last one) numbers.
The idea that Derrick Williams becomes a solid PF isn’t a long shot. He’s posting per 36 numbers now of about 14.5 and 8. The idea that he becomes Lebron James at the 3 is pretty ridiculous. It’s also possible that Derrick becomes top flight PF, but it’s highly unlikely he’ll pass or reach Kevin Love’s current production at the 4 ever.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
or maybe Taylor...
then he can realize what a doofus his POBO is.
Lebron James is a bit much
I mean I like Williams chances at the 3 as much as anyone if not more…but LBJ is saying a lot. I think the guy will be able to score and do it from the perimeter which is in my opinion what we need. we are a sound defensive team with pretty good role players, we have a stud 4 and point and a developingly awesome center, we need a perimeter scoring threat Williams has that ability. I don’t know if that makes him a real SF or not, but it does make his potential something of value to at least my estimation of what we need to complete this team.
I would trade him, but realistically only if we were getting a legitimate perimeter scoring threat in return.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Keep Pek!!
Pek seems to be the only one that can create his own shot :)
Trade Love for Charlotte’s unconditional first round pick this year (ducks)…and Gerald Henderson…and something else, maybe another pick.
If we had Pek next to Anthony Davis and were able to get a competent wing this offseason, we would hurt people next year.
Reason is the first victim of strong emotion.
PEK's D
Pek won’t block shots
Pek won’t grab a ton of boards
Pek won’t play pick & roll very well
But, Pek will not let his man get close to the rim, he will not let his man get an easy shot. Pek’s offensive game vastly outweighs his D liabilities. He is still a middle of the road defender.
Pek also does grab a lot of boards
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Jebus.
Who just pointed out that Pek is the third best P&R man in the whole league? Way to ignore reality.
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 12:51 AM CST up reply actions
Not that I'd ever support a word that would harm a hair on Pek's peak
but I think he means he won’t play PnR defense very well. Pek’s the 2nd best offensive PnR player this year, but defensively he has yet to face enough PnR’s to qualify for a ranking on synergy stats.
But small sample size theater says he’s Peksorcizing the demons out of PnR’s defensively too!!
Seriously though, (directed at everyone reading this, not at CJ) why perpetuate the fallacy that Pek is a liability on defense? He’s been Pekcellent in every capacity defensively this season (can improve DREB, not concerned about it given Love’s presence). Let Big Pek eat.
PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKK!
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 2:28 AM CST up reply actions
More seriously,
I don’t get the “Pek is a bad defender” thing. We have played both Gasols, Dwight Howard, Andrew Bynum, and a bunch of other quality bigs lately, and none have done better than average against us. If Pek were truly a bad defender, wouldn’t someone have gone off on him by now?
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 2:31 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Yes, agreed.
Jim Peterson said Darko is a better defender than Pek last night, and immediately following these comments Darko gets 3 fouls in 4 minutes, and Pek played solid D the whole night on the strongest, best center in the world.
He’s just flat out wrong, and this year, Pek is playing good defense.
He’s playing smarter this year and picking up less fouls. He’s outproducing almost anyone he matches up with on a per minute basis, which is all we need to win. Pek is not the problem, and we should keep him because he’s kicking supreme ass in his second year.
PEK!
by skelman on Feb 14, 2012 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
He seems to be from the Chuck Hayes school of big-bodied defense
Not as good defensively (yet?) as the Chuckwagon, but he seems to know how to use his size to his advantage on the defensive end. BTW: Sikma for coach of the year? ;)
by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 14, 2012 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Props to Sikma for certain.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
by Airete on Feb 14, 2012 10:15 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
On Twitter a while ago:
Twolves_PR Timberwolves PR
Pek comes off a screen to hit a ft line jumper. @kevinlove calls him “Pek Sikma.” Pek says “no, no, no…”
I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.
by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
I'm A OK with Pek's defense
is he gonna block 2.5 shots a game? probably not. but the guy positions himself like crazy and knows how to use his body
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
Should just drafted Biyombo or made a draft night trade
Would much rather have him on this team than Williams.
For the loser now
Will be later to win
Cause of his awesome stats?
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/biyombi01.html
You really want that 3.4 ppg/ 3.0 rpg/ .022 WS/48, 10 PER, 105 Drtg (which is higher than Williams…I was under the impression BB was supposed to be good at D)
Yep. Good call there
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
I don't trust Drtg at all.
Shane Battier, for example, has a career 105 Drtg and has never had a season below 102.
Bruce Bowen had 1 year below 101.
Rodman has a career Drtg of exactly 100. Which is…average.
Garnett’s 1st 3 years were 107, 105, 103.
Camby’s first 2 years were 105 and 107.
Sure
but my point still stands. Outside of BLK% there is not a single metric that shows Biyombo is a functional NBA player
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
His Defensive Rebound rate is solid.
But he’s not expected to be good this year. He’s a massive project, but when you watch him, you can see the potential is absolutely there. His defensive instincts are outstanding and he’s a freakish athlete.
So why does potential exist with Biyombo, but not with Michael Beasley.
How is this any different? the talent is clearly there with Beasley as he has shown the ability to be able to score on anyone in bunches, but not consistently.
Same with Williams, can’t the same thing be said for Williams as a 3? He’s gotta lose around 10 pounds but weight loss is a lot easier than a jumper to teach….
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 10:23 PM CST up reply actions
Because Beasley is in his 4th year in the league and is the exact same player he was as a rookie.
As far as Williams, I don’t like his game. I didn’t think it would translate to the Pros, and so far he’s been worse than I imagined.
I could be wrong about Biyombo too, but I see him as a bigger, longer, more athletic Ben Wallace. That’s so much more valuable to me than what Beasley or Williams represent if they meet their “potentials”.
K
Then I should hope to not hear any crips about people referring to potential in future debates from you. Not that you necessarily do it, but a lot of people who will remain nameless are very big Biyombo fans but also are the same ones to tell me that “if you can’t quantify it, it doesn’t exist” and well…you can’t quantify Biyombo at them moment, at least Williams as been right around league average with the inconsistent playing time he’s received.
Idk if Biyombo can turn it around I don’t see why Wes Johnson couldn’t. Same deal, super human size/athleticism for a wing, pretty solid defensive instincts….if he could not be a brutal offensive player he might be an alright player to have on the team.
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 10:55 PM CST up reply actions
There is a HUGE difference between Biyombo and Wes.
Biyombo gets after it. Hard. All the time. Wes is the most passive player I’ve ever seen. Very few good players got there by coasting.
And there is a HUGE difference in upside between a 19 year-old rookie, a 24 year-old 2nd year player (and a 23 year-old 4th year player). So I do think Williams has much more “potential” than Wes or Beasley – but I just don’t like the type of player that he appears to be heading towards becoming. And if he’s going to continue to struggle shooting (and its not like they just aren’t going in, his shot is flat out hideous), his bust potential looks scarier and scarier.
Also, IMO, if you have the tools and desire, you will become a good defensive player, and Biyombo appears to have that. I think offensive skills are much harder to “will yourself” to have.
I'll also add this about 'potential'
There is a difference between a guy who is a really raw talent and a guy that has been playing ball for years, but has never put it together.
IMO, the 1st guy has true potential. The 2nd guy, we use the word ‘potential’ instead of ‘disappointment’.
Biyombo is 19 and if he makes it will be looking at more than a decade in the league.
He might not make it, but he wasn’t supposed to be good this year. He’s a 19 year old defensive big. He was supposed to rebound, block shots and foul his way off the court until he learned better. Well he’s rebounding and blocking shots. Here’s a list of players this year with block% of 4 or greater and a defensive rebounding percentage of 18% or greater. Biyombo is the only guy under 20. Six guys are in their 30s and still playing. I’m not suggesting we expect he’ll be an all-star next year, but if you liked Biyombo at draft time there hasn’t been anything to suggest you shouldn’t like him now. Incidentally he’s shooting better than the number 4 pick Tristan Thompson who I also wouldn’t rush to make too many judgements about.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
George Karl
Is a poor judge of talent, and isn’t playing him.
So
then we shouldn’t rush to make too many judgement’s about Derrick Williams since he is actually only 20 and has actually been a pretty good player when given the leash and minutes to do so
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
My problem with Derrick Williams is that he's a 4.
So far everything about his size, game and translation to the NBA screams 4 or stretch 4. If we didn’t have Love I wouldn’t want to move Williams. We have Love.
Answering the next questions….can he play the 3? He shouldn’t have to most of the time. Love shouldn’t have to play the 5 much. It can happen in limited roles, but I wouldn’t recommend it as a viable strategy.
600 N First Ave "like a Pirate's cove".
I think
his offensive game is theoretically a lot more in lined with a perimeter player than a post.
I don’t know if that makes him a 3 or not, but he appears to be a lot more comfortable given the ball on the perimeter and being allowed to do something with it vs being in the post.
i say theoretically because the guy is broke right now and any basis of him ever being able to be a three is kinda centered around his supposed ability to hit SF like jumpers.
If he is going to be broke his whole career he probably will struggle to be a starter at either position let alone a star.
The guy is 20, he has a lot of quickness and has certain level’s of explosiveness. Unless you are turning him into someone who can give you offense I’d just as soon keep him let him continue to develop, see if he loses some of that baby fat (Lord knows I didn’t lose mine till i was around 22) and see if that shot can get unbroke.
We need offense on this team, probably more so than defense at this point. Rubio/Love seem to have set the defensive tone and everyone is following suit. We need a guy who can get some offense going…..unless an outside hire happens Williams is probably the best bet with what we got right now
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
"I don’t know if that makes him a 3 or not, but he appears to be a lot more comfortable given the ball on the perimeter and being allowed to do something with it vs being in the post."
Hence “Stretch 4”.
But other than a theoretical shooting ability, I don’t see SF skills. He doesn’t create offense for others, and his handle seems limited to lowering his head and bullying in a straight line.
And I don’t think he has “baby fat” to lose. He came to camp bigger than he was pre-draft. You don’t add baby fat at 20, I think he’s continuing to fill out and grow into his body. He’s a big, thick dude. He’s never going to look like a Rudy Gay or “typical” SF.
He leads his team in Drtg (tied with T. Thomas)
Dereck Williams is tied for 5th on the Twolves behind Rubio. Love, Darko, and AntRand. Webster and Pek aslso sport a 101Drtg. Once again direct comparison of Drtg across teams is foolish.
What about
Jeff Withey? He looks like a great center.
I tried posting a comment earlier
but I think I failed.
Process to having respectable franchise
1) Have gaping hole at center for decade
2) Employ the likes of Olowakandi, Mark Blount, Darko Milicic, etc just to piss off city
C) Stumble into center who provides 20+ PER and off-the-charts loveability.
4) Trade after 2 weeks of success
5) Profit
Seriously though, the best way to get better is to avoid trading production for potential. I hate conversations about “fit.” It’s ridiculous. If Love and Pek didn’t fit together they would be getting outplayed. They haven’t been. Fix the wings, worry about how two of our three good players “fit” together later.
by BeasleBong on Feb 13, 2012 9:59 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
I agree
I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.
by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
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