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Around SBN: What If This Is It For The Celtics? End Of An Era Looming

Changes HAVE to come to this roster.

Its quite clear the Wolves do not have a starting caliber SG or SF. We have 3 solid players in Rubio, Love, and Pek that constantly produce then we have a bunch of inconsistent bench players that are getting too many minutes. Our wings are dreadful and looks like our Pups have REGRESSED as of late and I wouldn't be surprised if we lost against the Bob Kitties.

So what trades can we make to get some decent talent? I'd trade DThrill for a starting SF and go after Morrow. Do you think Kahn wakes up or are we stuck with this roster until next season?

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My money is on stuck

the way Kahn and Adleman seem to work we will probably roll with this group till the offseason

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 9:29 PM CST reply actions  

A depressing thought.

by Andrew00 on Feb 13, 2012 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

That's what Kahn has said in at least one interview.

The last thing we want to do is take long twos. It's still on our list, though.

by feral on Feb 14, 2012 7:49 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't see us making a move either.

I would like to but it has to be the right move and I don’t know what that is right now.

by Doug West Domination!!! on Feb 13, 2012 9:32 PM CST reply actions  

Kahn sucks

and won’t make the moves that win championships. he’ll cling to his failed “assets” like Wes and D-Will until they have no value left. We coulda had Paul George for Jonny Flynn, but Kahn wouldn’t let go.

FIRE KAHN NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the loser now
Will be later to win

by John Wall on Feb 13, 2012 9:33 PM CST reply actions  

DWill is a failed asset?

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 9:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Not Failed

but D Will is not meeting #2 overall expectations, especially with Kyrie Irving doing well this year.

by DBE on Feb 13, 2012 11:30 PM CST up reply actions  

irving went to a team with no pg

DWill went to a team with a once in a decade power forward. What drugs are you using not to understand the difference?

Wolves 2011-12: Crossing the Rubikahn....alea iacta est...... " et tu Ricky?"

by Tangerine dream on Feb 13, 2012 11:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Considering his production,

you could argue that Love is a once-in-three-decades PF.

I'm going to brag. I drive the Nikola Pekovic fanwagon.

by Cynical Jason on Feb 14, 2012 12:03 AM CST up reply actions  

That was needlessly mean,

especially since he’s mostly right. The fact that Irving is getting minutes didn’t guarantee that he’d be productive with them, and the fact that Williams is getting fewer minutes (but still the 10th most among rookies) didn’t guarantee mediocrity. Rookies like Vucevic are putting up better numbers (WP/48, WS/48) in fewer minutes than Williams is getting.

He’s not a bust yet and I expect that he’ll improve, but the stats he’s put up so far mean something. I’ve been especially disappointed with his outside shooting. If that doesn’t improve, there’s no way for him to justify his draft position.

by Madison Dan on Feb 14, 2012 9:26 AM CST up reply actions  

That is looking good.

I have to say that I had my doubts about both Leonard and Vucevic at the time of the draft, but they’ve played well so far.

Biyombo is still looking like a speculative pick, but I’d still bet on him being a pretty great defender someday. Every player looks pretty good in a highlight reel, but both Biyombo and Rubio just blew me away in a YouTube kind of way, doing things that not a lot of players can do. Plus, Biyombo has at least a bit of a statistical track record in a real league.

by Madison Dan on Feb 14, 2012 9:45 AM CST up reply actions  

He's starting now

I make sure to check out his games on Synergy or League Pass and “IT” is there. His hands are made of rock, he’s got zero offensive game, and he gets tricked by savvy older players, but he is a very smart player who covers an insane amount of ground on the court. It’s just silly. He can guard a guy at the 3 point line with one foot in the lane at the free throw line. I’ve seen him get a two handed rebound by taking two steps towards the bucket from 16 feet out on the wing. If Charlotte gets Anthony Davis, they’ll be the best defensive team in the league in 3 years.

Follow @canishoopus

by Stop-n-Pop on Feb 14, 2012 9:54 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

I've watched a few of his games

He hasn’t played many minutes – but in the few minutes he’s been in, he has been absolutely….

Reason is the first victim of strong emotion.

by nodnarb on Feb 14, 2012 8:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I forgot to mention

that Valanciunas still hasn’t arrived. Then we’ll all be doing the David Kahn draft dance.

Reason is the first victim of strong emotion.

by nodnarb on Feb 14, 2012 8:37 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't disagree with the outside shooting portion of your position

The thing that bothers me about people’s disinterest in Williams and people’s opinions about him not being a fit and never ever ever going to be able to play the 3 is mostly this is all unquantifiable claims that people are basing off of their provebial eye test (which I get ripped for using plenty on CH by the same people) and this is also the same method to evaluate a player that would have run Love out of town because he couldn’t guard the LA’s of the world a few years back.

However, the point that is absolutely fair that is absolutely quantifiable is the fact the guy is broke as hell right now. I’d imagine inconsistent playing time + always having that feeling that if he doesn’t produce in limited minutes means he will get pulled aren’t helping him mentally when he is playing (In HS and college during my playing career I experienced the same thing and it does exist) but absolutely you are correct, if the three pointers don’t start dropping there is no way he will be the player it looked like he could be or worthy of the 2nd pick in the draft.

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 14, 2012 3:22 PM CST up reply actions  

He's one guy I'm willing to be patient with

(assuming the Wolves can’t or won’t trade him for a good SG/SF, which I think is the case), but at this point I’m a little worried about his upside. If he’s playing well (which has happened at times), I wouldn’t mind seeing him get more minutes, even if he’s out of position.

by Madison Dan on Feb 14, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions  

and isn't it fair

that if he isn’t long term a 3…..is he really a worse ball player than Wes/Beasley and maybe even Webster?

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 14, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Its not even just the 3s.

His shot looks awful from any range. And half the time it just looks like he’s throwing the ball at the basket.

If I judged him strictly on hos Pro career, I’d say he looks like a guy who has never been able to shoot the ball.

And that goes back to one of my core concerns. Yeah, he shot a ridiculous % from 3 last year. But he didn’t shoot many. Going by DraftXpress, only 25% of his offense came from jumpshots – and they almost all came in the flow of the offense. Meaning they weren’t highly contested and they weren’t difficult shots – or ones that he had to work to create. Add in that he took only 5 pull-up jumpers all year and I worry that his shooting % may have been something of a mirage – especially when you look at how poorly he shot from deep just the year before.

by Simitar on Feb 14, 2012 3:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Like I said

if the guy is broke he probably will not have been worthy of a no.2 pick

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 14, 2012 3:36 PM CST up reply actions  

I never thought he was worth the #2 pick - even in a 'poor' draft.

So he’s going to have to do a hell of a lot to convince me otherwise.

IMO, his biggest value was in a pre-draft trade with another team that bought into the hype.

by Simitar on Feb 14, 2012 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

eh

his biggest value is if he can score a lot and efficiently, and that is what is talent suggests he might be able to do one day.

We need that guy and if we could have gotten that guy (like Eric Gordon or James Harden) for the pick than I would agree with you….but anything short of that and I’ll take the blue pill and see what happens

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 14, 2012 4:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Maybe some day...

But a .455 eFG% isn’t going to cut it.

by Simitar on Feb 14, 2012 4:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Gotta play him

inconsistent playing time leads to inconsistent play

I’m not sure what Wes has done to get every opportunity in the world to be good, but if Williams was given the same leash I wouldn’t doubt he’d be producing a lot better.

I realize Wes is only “averaging” 3 mpg more than Williams but it’s both the quality of minutes and the consistency that are different.

Wes knows he is starting every game and at minimum is playing till about 2 minutes left in the 1st quarter, then he will start the 2nd half and likewise play deep in to the 3rd quarter. if he plays well (and this standard seems to be a lot lower for Wes than other player) he will probably get over 30 mpg, and if he doesn’t then he doesn’t check in the rest of the game. Wes has spent the better part of the last month playing with Rubio/Love/Ridnour and recently Pek.

Williams checks in either with 2 minutes left in the first or into the 2nd quarter, giving him enough time to get stiff from warm ups meaning he has to get warm again when he gets into the game, he often checks in with Beasley who literally does the same exact thing as him except he shoots more and he plays a lot with Barea lately as well who also shoots a lot, and if Williams doesn’t immediately produce basically he is checked out.

People have commented that nothing looks smooth right now with Williams, that he has to think through everything (Especially drives) that he isn’t playing instinctively. There is not a single basketball player in the world that can play instinctively when they know if they don’t immediately produce they are coming out.

What Adleman really should be doing is telling Williams that he is going to play and play and play and he won’t take him out as long as he is giving 100 percent effort. If he did this with Williams instead of Wes I don’t see how we are any worse and we’d better be able to showcase or develop or most recent project

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 15, 2012 7:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Case Study

games in which Williams has played more than 25 mpgs

OKC= 13/6
Clev=12/4 (2 blocks)
Was=14/7
TOR=13/8
Utah=15/8
Hou=11/8 (admittedly a poor game)
Dal=10/6
Sac=14/8
Mem=13/9
Dal=6/5

so outside of the last Dallas game he is always in double figures in scoring and basically has over 6 rebounds all but twice. That’s some consistency to track and he’d probably be a lot better if he’d been given consistent burn earlier in the season

I agree he has not looked good always, but especially with the gaping hole at SF we have there is no reason not to give him burn until we make a move.

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 15, 2012 9:22 AM CST up reply actions  

Agreed. Guy has no mid range game and doesn’t go strong to the hoop.

by Andrew00 on Feb 13, 2012 11:41 PM CST up reply actions  

That still burns that he kept Flynn. Burns even more when we have Flynn 2.0 on our roster.

by Andrew00 on Feb 13, 2012 9:45 PM CST up reply actions  

If I were to move Williams

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=8xjmckb

this would be the kinda trade I would be very interested in. For those of you who can’t see trade machine, this unrealistic 4 teamer goes like this

Minnesota: Batum and Evan Turner
Portland: Javale McGee, Andres Nocioni, Ronny Turiaf
Philly: Marcus Camby and Luke Ridnour (maybe a pick here)
Washington: Derek Williams

This trade works if Washington is looking to shake things up and not interested in giving McGee a ton of money. It also helps give POR a very intimidating defensive front-court with McGee/Aldrige/Wallace and Philly gets out of a contract in Nocioni they never use while giving them two quality role players to help balance their roster out. Maybe we throw one of our two protected picks at Philly if they are hesitant….

but all-in-all I think this would be a good trade for all teams, especially us

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 9:39 PM CST reply actions  

Love it.

But I doubt Camby and Ridnour would be good enough for the sixers as Camby has said it will be his last season. Batum and Turner could flourish under Rubio.

by Andrew00 on Feb 13, 2012 9:44 PM CST up reply actions  

hmmm

didn’t realize this aspect of it.

Lemme go back to the drawing board

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 9:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Move Beasley/ Ellington?

by Andrew00 on Feb 13, 2012 10:01 PM CST up reply actions  

edit:

Minnesota: Batum/Turner/Rashard Lewis
Washington: Williams/Beasley/Miller/Webster
Portland: McGee/Nocioni/Ridnour/Protected pick
Philly: Wes Matthews/Marcus Camby/Jordan Crawford

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 10:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I’d do it if it was possible.

by Andrew00 on Feb 13, 2012 10:18 PM CST up reply actions  

it's in reality probably not

I don't know what an art house is, I don't know what goes on in an art house, I have never been in an art house, and I can't imagine it's any place I ever want to be.

by VoodooMagic on Feb 13, 2012 10:26 PM CST up reply actions  

Doubt Philly gives up

Turner for Camby and Ridnour

by andrew33 on Feb 13, 2012 9:47 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Kahn doesn't think a Playoff push this year matters

he’s made the improvements he had to this year. He got Rubio and Adelman and Dwill (arguably BPA in the draft at 2). Attendance is up and the team is fun for now.

He is on record saying that if we don’t make the payoffs this year its not a big deal. I think his strategy is to play out this shortened season, and go into the offseason with cap flexibility. Randolph and Beas are good as gone, Miller and Webster are bought out. Then you amnesty Darko or Johnson. There is a lot of space to work with there.

I really believe Batum will be his target (he has been before and OR-7 has a good post on this)…along with a Courtney Lee type player.

Not saying I agree with him giving up on this year, it’s just that I think he will value cap flexibility over a trade that will limit his flexibility this offseason. His job for this season is done.

by Pass the rock on Feb 13, 2012 11:28 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

Makes sense

However we keep playing like we have been I don’t see the Wolves are fun to watch tag sticking and attendance will go down the farther away we are from .500. I also think Winning is quite important seeing how the Hornets have our pick I’d rather it not be a top 10 selection.

by Andrew00 on Feb 13, 2012 11:39 PM CST up reply actions  

I agree winning is important

This is where Kahn’s strategy might not hold water. If we start losing and we regress significantly then you risk losing this "cultural" change that everyone says is so important – when turning around a losing team.

Its important for guys like Rubio, Love and Pek (who I envision as long-term guys) to not go through a significant "regression" again. Especially with Adelman.

If this year is really a turning point with momentum behind it, the team has to win 25-30 games IMO – not 0.500 territory. With 37 games left they need to win 12-17 games – I believe – for the team to finish outside the bottom 10. I think they can do it with the roster they have now, and I bet Kahn is betting on that.

Interesting to me, is Rubio’s reaction to this because I don’t think he has ever lost this much as a pro. We will see…

by Pass the rock on Feb 13, 2012 11:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Good points.

Not only this but how is going to look when we are looking at potential free agents. At least when you make a move you show to your fans and players that I want to win.

by Andrew00 on Feb 13, 2012 11:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Amnesty Wes?

Isn’t he in the “team option” phase of his rookie contract?

by rubiorube on Feb 14, 2012 7:46 AM CST up reply actions  

(Team option is for 2013/14.)

The last thing we want to do is take long twos. It's still on our list, though.

by feral on Feb 14, 2012 7:52 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree winning is important

This is where Kahn’s strategy might not hold water. If we start losing and we regress significantly then you risk losing this “cultural” change that everyone says is so important – when turning around a losing team.

Its important for guys like Rubio, Love and Pek (who I envision as long-term guys) to not go through a significant “regression” again. Especially with Adelman.

If this year is really a turning point with momentum behind it, the team has to win 25-30 games IMO – not 0.500 territory. With 37 games left they need to win 12-17 games – I believe – for the team to finish outside the bottom 10. I think they can do it with the roster they have now, and I bet Kahn is betting on that.

Interesting to me, is Rubio’s reaction to this because I don’t think he has ever lost this much as a pro. We will see…

by Pass the rock on Feb 13, 2012 11:52 PM CST reply actions  

Andrew 00

Are you also Andrew 33?

Just curious.

by nextmove on Feb 14, 2012 12:31 AM CST reply actions   1 recs

No.

I giggled when I saw his name though.

by Andrew00 on Feb 14, 2012 12:45 AM CST up reply actions  

Nash...

Ridnour, Beasley, Wes Johnson for Nash and Channing Frye…

Phx needs to get a PG back and while Ridnour isn’t great, he isn’t terrible.
Phx gets to get rid of Frye’s salary
Phx gets to take a flier at Beasley and Wes Johnson, they’re young, they’re athletic, hopefully Phx doesn’t realize they both stink.

Nash takes Ridnour’s spot.
He is a reliable shooter and would be an instant upgrade to our roster.
We could limit Rubio to 30 minutes a game. Limit Nash to 30 minutes a game.
Frye isn’t very good, but he is only good on teams where he can knock down long range shots. We are desperate for that skill set. He’s overpriced, but could be worth it…

Pg: Rubio /JJB
Pg2: Nash / Ellington / Lee
SF: Martell / DWill
PF; Love / Tolliver
C; Pek / Frye / Darko

by Cris Carter is a Muppet on Feb 14, 2012 3:17 AM CST reply actions  

Nash is not leaving Phoenix.

They would be betraying his trust if they traded him, I believe.

If I'm pissing you off its probably sarcasm

by CoffeeJanitor on Feb 14, 2012 10:31 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm all for pivoting to Veteran Accumulation Mode

and I think our #1 Target should be
Stephen Jackson

and i have zero problem to signing KG to a 2 year 20M deal this offseason.

we should be in win-next-three-years mode while the Lakers, Mavs, Spurs are trying to retool their franchises…the West is WIDE OPEN. OKC is gettable and the Clips are the Clips/something terrible is going to happen to them….there aren’t any teams between us and OKC that should keep us from getting to #2 team in West with some aggressive moves to accumulate Vets.

And I’m betting that there is a growing sense in the organization that this is what they should be doing…I believe they are on their heels about just how good Rubio is and how Pek has developed…even the continued development of Love this year has to be ‘best case scenario’ times 2.

Adelman ain’t getting any younger and Taylor ain’t getting any younger….

you can’t take it with you Glen!

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Feb 14, 2012 11:11 AM CST reply actions  

Glen + Kahn

You really think they’re in win now mode?

If I'm pissing you off its probably sarcasm

by CoffeeJanitor on Feb 14, 2012 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

I think anyone with

Kahn-a-brain can feel the change in the building on game day. and hear the cash register ringing.

and anyone with Kahn-a-brain can see that the West is for the taking (at least WCF)

and any player with Kahn-a-brain can see that if they join the Wolves at the one position they have a gaping hole at they can really flourish.

I think the strategy should be to be aggressive accumulation next two years with contracts… leaving room for the resign of Rubio/Love combo in 3.

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Feb 14, 2012 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Two moves

1. Offer the caged lion to Portland for Batum & their 2012 first round pick (I know this trade has been beaten to death on Canis, but I likes it!)
2. Do everything you can short of making an illegal contract offer on a napkin to get JR Smith to sign here (again, nothing new here, but it just makes so much sense!)

Could be wishful thinking on my part, but a lineup of Rubio/JR/Batum/Love/Pek could make a playoff run this year. If either Portland or JR don’t bite, then perhaps the best thing is to wait until you can make a RFA offer to Batum this summer. Just hate to see an opportunity wasted and I’m tired of WAITING for this team to get back into the playoffs!

by rubiorube on Feb 14, 2012 12:47 PM CST reply actions   1 recs

i'd love to roll with that team

if you work the Trade Machine there are really a dearth of opportunities out there…

unless we get into some sort of facilitation mode on a bigger deal and can somehow land a piece like Pau.

what this teams going to have to do is get Kevin and Ricky out there to recruit a 3rd big name to want to come here….

http://loisaidabbclub.tumblr.com/
Twitter: @loisaidabbclub

by beatsandpeasnyc on Feb 14, 2012 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Pau

why

If I'm pissing you off its probably sarcasm

by CoffeeJanitor on Feb 14, 2012 2:48 PM CST reply actions  

Am I the only one that likes Nick Young?

I know he wouldn’t be a “3rd best player” but he is a strong 4th best with a killer instinct with shooting.

by y2jayjk on Feb 14, 2012 4:38 PM CST reply actions  

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